Latest / More Than Before / Burnout, the Wilderness, and Why Leaders Don’t Escape It — with Robb Gossen

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Burnout, the Wilderness, and Why Leaders Don’t Escape It — with Robb Gossen · More Than Before

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Coming up on more than before. The wilderness is not a season
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that we should dread, it's a season that we can kind of grow
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in because most leaders burn out in the wilderness.
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Hey everybody, I'm really excited for my guest today.
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He is a really good friend of mine, a pastor, a coach who's
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helping people in burnout, specifically leaders who are
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experiencing burnout and helping them rediscover A healthier way
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to live and lead in their lives. Rob Gosen, welcome to More Than
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BEFORE brother, So good to have you on.
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It's good to be with you, man. It's been a long time since
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we've been able to hang out like this, so it's good to good to
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see your face. I mean it is kind of crazy
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though when you think about it. You left a rainy Drury place it
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here in Portland, OR to go to another rainy Drury place in
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Portland ME. Like you couldn't even switch up
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the name of the. I know I couldn't, but I I will
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have to say it's less rainy here and more snow.
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We've gotten close to 2 feet of snow already this winter before
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the new year. So it's, I'm getting more snow
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now than I did when I was in Portland, OR.
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So, you know, there's it, it's, it's one of those things.
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Well, hopefully you don't experience the snowpocalypse
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that we had You, you, you, you. You remember those days of the
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all of the freeways shutting down and people abandoning their
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cars in the middle of the highway because they just didn't
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know how to drive in it? But.
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Yeah, they know. They they don't.
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They know how to drive a little better here, but we have more
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plows so there's far less being stuck on the Interstate, far
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more plows and way more Rd. salt to to wash off your car at the
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end of the season. Oh, man, I love it.
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Yeah, we and we don't salt here in Oregon.
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We we like to throw small little rocks at the road so that they
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can spit up and break all the windshields.
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Wait, yeah, keep your windshield all the way through.
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Yeah, yeah. I love it.
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I don't miss that. So now pastor, but you're also a
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coach and you're a speaker. Tell tell everyone a little bit
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about what your focus on specifically is right now, and
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then we'll dive a little bit more into the back story and
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context of life. Yeah, so, and in 20/17/2018, I
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went through a pretty good season of burnout and, and I had
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already been certified as a coach and I was coming out of
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that and meeting with a coach and a spiritual director and,
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and a counselor and kind of doing some inner healing.
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And coming out of that, I realized that there's a lot of
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pastors who were struggling like me with a hidden, like just a
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hidden burning out sensation. They're, they're trying to get
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things done. They're seeing less and less
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results and they're working harder and harder than before.
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And, and so as I was kind of figuring out and coming out of
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my own season, I realized that I had several friends who were in
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the same boat. And it was only through
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conversations that we were having.
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And I started hearing little things that they were saying
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that I was like, man, I've said that.
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And they weren't admitting to burnout.
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They, everything, you know, was fine and, and their words, but I
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was hearing these little words of that just like, man,
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everything's not good. And so I started kind of working
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with a couple of guys who were on the edge of burnout and
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burning out bad and, and just felt like it was time to coach
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guys and pastors, specifically ministry leaders and, and staff
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members of churches who were, were working harder than before,
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you know, and post COVID, obviously, and through COVID, we
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were working harder than ever, just trying to keep doors open
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and get things going. And, and I was like, man, I got
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to help. I got to do something.
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And I had, you know, been trained in spiritual leadership
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coaching. I have, you know, decided that
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what I wanted to do was help ministry leaders or leaders
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specifically who were trying to figure out how to be all that
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they're supposed to be in their career, but then coming home and
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trying to figure out how to be all they're supposed to be for
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their families. And so I really landed on this
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idea of shifting the wilderness, that the wilderness is not a
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season that we should dread. It's a season that we can kind
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of grow in because most leaders burn out in the wilderness.
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They, they, it's dry, it's dusty, it's hard, it's, you
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know, it's hot and, and they're doing everything they can and,
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and they're not sure what to do anymore.
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And so how do you lead well at home, lead well at your job and
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leave yourself well? And so just decided that I was
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going to kind of help them shift the wilderness from being a
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place of, of desolation to a place of transformation.
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And, and so really started working on some things about
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resiliency and strength and wholeness and, and kind of
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figured out that in order to, to survive and not just survive,
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but thrive in the wilderness, you needed to approach it or see
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it in a different way. Because if you didn't, burnout
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was the only way through. If you didn't, if you didn't
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approach it, well, burnout was, was at the end result because I
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had been there. I was in the wilderness, I was
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burning out and I didn't want to see any of my, my friends
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experience the same kind of turmoil that I was experiencing
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in my own life. It.
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Was funny because we were just talking about this.
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I'm trying to figure out where we first met at that at that
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little coffee shop and in in Tigard area, the Lionheart
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coffee. And it's funny because I
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remember many conversations of us sitting down like, you know,
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we connected over a book, which, you know, now a book is by the
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way, is a paper. It's a it's a binder of papers
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that open it up. It's not on my.
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Kindle it's not on my My Kindle is a really good book, but
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there's. It doesn't read to you like you
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have to turn the page. I know it's a lot of work that
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goes into a book. I used to carry a, a couple
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different books around and we ended up having a conversation
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and it, it kindled a really amazing friendship between you
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and I that over the years it, it was just really great to hear
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what was going on and just kind of be a person in your corner to
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encourage you and actually remember you talking a lot about
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the wilderness. And I kept thinking, is he ever
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going to get out of the wilderness?
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Because I feel like he's been in the in the wilderness for a
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while. Yeah, it was a long time, man,
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because, you know, the, the wilderness, you know, we think,
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man, I just got to plow through this.
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And, you know, and what I realized was that you, you, you
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don't go from wilderness to promised land.
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You go from wilderness to wilderness because the promised
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land was just a was, it's just another wilderness that they had
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to explore. It just looked very different
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than the desert, right? Like the promised land was, was
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fruitful and lush and green, but there were different kinds of
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dangers and different kinds of, of places where you could get
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hung up and and caught. And so I realized, you know,
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that that you go from wilderness to wilderness.
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It's just a matter of what is the wilderness you're facing and
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the seasons that are, are dry and desolate that that wear on
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your soul can actually prepare you for the battles that you'll
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have to face. It's just a different kind of
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battle. And so I don't know if you ever
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escape a wilderness season. It's just what you're facing in
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that season is different than other seasons.
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And so, you know, the promised land was just another wilderness
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for the Israelites to explore. It just was the land in which
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they were promised to to inhabit.
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And so, yeah, I figured out that, you know, I'm going from
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wilderness to wilderness. It's just that I need a
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different set of tools for the wilderness I was in and what I
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was trying to do wasn't working anymore.
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And, and so I think so often leaders, we, we get caught in
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the same tools that we've always used.
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And we hit these, these different, these different
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seasons that we weren't expecting.
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And we keep trying to use the same tools.
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You know, one of the things I realized was like, I'm burning
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out because I was carry. I was wearing a parka.
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It's like I had a parka on and I'm walking through the desert,
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man, I didn't need a parka on in the desert because it was bulky.
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It was making me more hot than I needed to be.
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And, and so man, I had to start. I, I, in fact, I had to empty
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everything. I had all the regular tools I
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had used in the past, I had to get rid of and I had to start
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figuring out what's the tool that I need for this season and,
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and build a new toolbox. And So what I discovered was
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that that toolbox is, is constantly changing and, and
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every season you go through, every wilderness you experience
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and encounter, it requires a different toolbox.
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And, and so trying to figure out how do I, how do I, how do I get
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out of that with my soul intact? Like how do I become the, how do
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I, we get back to the father? I want to be the husband I want
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to be and the pastor, the youth pastor, I wanted to be for the,
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the church that I was at. And so it took a while.
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You know, we, we want to get out of it fast.
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We're like, man, just get me through right.
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Like I, I I want to get from from from Egypt to to promised
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land in three days. This should just be a blip.
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Right. And it should just be this is
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just a blip. Yeah, I can get through this.
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So I can, you know, I put my head down.
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I think is especially as men, as leaders, we, we kind of put her
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head down. I think I can just, I can barrel
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through this and I'll be OK. But there are seasons, man.
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You just can't barrel through. I remember I was flying over
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that and it hit me when I was in it, I was, I was watering my
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yard and my, my neighbor's grass was green and mine was brown.
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It didn't matter what I did. I realized this is a picture of
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my soul. Like this isn't just my yard
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being brown. This is the picture of my soul.
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And I got on a plane. I was flying to San Diego for a
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for a conference, for a meeting with a group of guys.
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And I'm flying over the desert. And I'm like, man, the desert is
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brown. It's ugly, it's hideous.
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And then I saw these pops of color, like vibrant color, and I
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realized there's still life in the wilderness.
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It just comes sparingly and it looks very different, which is
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why you need a different toolbox to get you through.
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You need a different set of tools.
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And so, yeah, the wilderness season lasts last longer because
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so often we're trying to get out of the season by using tools
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that don't work. And so you have to take it off.
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You have to shed the coat. You have to, you know, and then
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you camp in the season. I realized, you know, the, the,
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the journeying through the, you know, during through the
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wilderness is like, you discover things you don't need and then
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you camp, like, right. Like the Israelites set up camp
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in the wilderness because it took them so long.
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And what you discover when you camp are these buried things
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that you didn't know were there, right?
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Like, I remember camping as a kid in in Minnesota with my dad.
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And I remember setting up our tent and I cleared the ground.
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Everything was good. But after two days of sleeping
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in the same spot, I found the stick that I had missed.
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Every. Right, because it's jagging in,
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it's digging into my back and I'm like, man.
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And and that's what it was is like in the wilderness because
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we're continuing to use these same tools and these same
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things. I just need to I just need to
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get through it. I just need to survive this
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season. I got AI got a manufacture
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strength within me to get through.
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And what happens is you start to, to take off the things.
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It exposes what you don't need, but then you camp when you
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uncover the things and it exposes the things that are
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hidden deep within you that God's like, listen, I can't take
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you to the promised land. I can't get you to the next
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place until we deal with what's inside of you.
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And I think so often as leaders were like, man, I just got to, I
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just got to forget what's there and I got to push through and,
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and and I'll deal with it later, but we can't get out of our own
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way. We can't get out of the
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wilderness until we deal with what's underneath.
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And what we uncover is we're camped in the wilderness and
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that thing that's, you know, that's just digging into our
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back and, and keeping us uncomfortable.
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Man, it's so good. And by the way, for all of you
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guys listening here, you can tell he's not passionate about
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this at all. Not at all.
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Hiding stretch. Well, it's funny too, because as
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you're talking and, you know, talking about like, you know,
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the wilderness is dry. You look at it, it's brown and
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it's dirt. And a lot of people look at the
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desert and they go, everything is just dead in there.
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But what's interesting is I think it was probably maybe
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within the last 10 years, they came out with the really high
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definition cameras for night and they were, they were putting
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them in Africa and on the desert and all of a sudden the entire
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desert just becomes alive at night.
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It's a completely different view and perspective on what the
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desert is. And the same thing can be true
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in your life too. If if you're experiencing A
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drought, if you're experiencing wandering through the desert,
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maybe it's a perspective shift that you need, which I think
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we're really going to find that out later on as we get into more
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of Rob's story of a lot of it is perspective and how you view
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things. Taking us back to where you grew
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up. You grew up in southeast Kansas,
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right? He is a die hard Chiefs fan.
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Don't get, don't, don't put it again.
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It's OK. We all have our we all have our
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Mahomes in our, in our life. But take us, take us back to
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your childhood. What was what was your childhood
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like? Who were you as as a young boy?
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Matt So nowhere close to what I am now.
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You know, I grew up on a on a 360 acre farm in southeast
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Kansas. And I was the son of a farmer
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and AG teacher. My grandfather was a dairy
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farmer and then farmer. My great grandfather lived.
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I mean, there were three generations on the farm, right?
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Like they had lived there since my dad was, was in junior high.
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And so it was, it was in my blood to be a farmer.
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In fact, I had, I had a plan of going to Kansas State
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University, becoming an AG teacher like my dad and farming
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this, you know, putting a fourth generation house on this 360
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acres, right? Like it was going to be, there
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were going to be more generations.
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And, and so that was life, man, that, that was it for me.
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And then grandfather died when I was 8.
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My great grandfather died just a few years later.
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And, and, and we sold the farm, we moved to town and I still was
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like, man, we had five acres. We had a small little house on
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the edge. Well, a bigger house, but small
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little lot of five acres. You know, I was in, you know, in
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the woods and kind of cattle was, was all it could really
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hold. And I thought, man, I can still
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do this. I can still be a farmer.
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I can still, you know, I can still teach AG and, and do
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little things like I, I planned. And so it was nothing about
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being a pastor. It was nothing about being a
14:18
coach. I just, I saw my, I saw my, my
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grandfather on, on my dad's side.
14:24
He was, he, he was a farmer and, and, and had sales for a, for a
14:29
nutrient nutrient company. And, and then my dad was a
14:33
farmer and AG teacher. My grandfather on the other side
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was a mechanic. You know, he did work on diesel
14:38
engines and cars and had the, you know, great mechanic shop.
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I cleaned more alternators and carburetors in my life and then
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I know I've lost count. And I thought, man, I just,
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that's just going to be me. I'm going to, I'm going to be a,
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you know, teacher and a blue collar guy that's just working
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the land and, and fixing things as I go.
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And, and it slowly kind of changed and, and I got into
15:02
things and realized that I was being called in a ministry and,
15:05
and started pursuing that. But I I wanted to make an impact
15:09
like my dad did, because I saw the kind of impact he made on
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teens lives in the classroom. And and that's what I want to
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do. I want to make an impact.
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You know, now, obviously the idea of being a coach like this,
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you know, coaching men and coaching leaders, that was never
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very foreign, Yeah, very foreign back then, but also in southeast
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Kansas. Like that's just not, you know,
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that's not something you you think about.
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And, and so kind of going through this, like I, I look
15:36
back, I'm like, man, I had a bunch of guys in my own life who
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coached me. You know, there were some more
15:40
coaches, you know, they had, they were high school tennis
15:43
coach and, you know, other coaches.
15:45
You know, the football coach was on my teachers and a good friend
15:47
and, and I loved his class. And so there were coaches, you
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know, but they're all sports coaches, right?
15:52
Or, or club coaches of, of competition.
15:55
And but I realized like, man, they're like just having those,
15:59
those guys that are just pouring into you and, and investing it,
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it kind of changed. And so I got to, you know, I, I
16:05
did some traveling after I graduated high school, kind of
16:08
saw the world and open up my, my world view from, you know, a
16:11
small southeastern can town of, you know, 2500 people.
16:15
You know, I'm living in Honolulu, HI, I'm living in
16:17
Taipei, Taiwan. I'm, you know, I'm seeing the
16:20
world for as a 18 year old kid, you know, who, who had traveled
16:25
to USA but had never seen anything like what I was seeing
16:28
in in Taiwan. And yeah.
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And so it changed my perspective and got to school and, and
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started doing some different things, got into ministry and,
16:36
and then that just kind of took me again, took me in different
16:40
places than I ever expected, but ended up and the youth pastor
16:45
for 20 man, 20 plus years working in youth ministry from
16:49
the time I was 19 years old to well, just about 3 1/2 years
16:53
ago, I was working with college students and, and high school
16:56
students and junior high students like that was I did for
16:58
20 plus years. And it's been crazy and I've
17:01
loved it. I still I'm still doing it now a
17:03
little bit, but not to the same extent.
17:08
Yeah, I, I love the, I love the farm experience, mainly because
17:12
my wife always says she wants a farm and I keep going.
17:15
No, you don't. There's like the, there's the
17:17
beautiful side of having a farm that everyone thinks about it
17:20
like, oh, I'm going to have the cows and the sheep, but it's
17:22
going to be amazing. And like, you don't want any of
17:25
this. Like you don't know how hard it
17:29
is to live on a farm, let alone own a farm.
17:33
Yeah, yeah, I'm. Curious, what were some of those
17:36
early lessons that you that you gathered from your grandfather
17:40
and your father being farmers? What were some of those early on
17:45
lessons that you still see and carry on today as you teach and
17:50
as you mentor others? Man, you know, a lot of it is
17:56
the the effort that it takes. Like you know it, you got to be
18:00
ready for anything and, and the effort that you have to put into
18:04
something that's unexpected. Like you don't know when the
18:06
fence is going to break. And you're going to have to, you
18:08
have, you know, 50 head of cattle that are out on the side
18:11
of the road that you've got to figure out how to get back into
18:14
a fence that is broken. And then you got to repair it
18:16
before they try and get back out.
18:18
You know, so there's always the unexpected and you don't know
18:20
how much work you're going to put into it, but you got to be
18:22
willing to do the work. And, you know, so that was, that
18:25
was always there and then always looking for new ways to, to, to
18:32
not survive, but to, to live. You know, I mean, there are
18:35
seasons where we had, you know, we had dozens head of cattle,
18:40
other seasons where, you know, we were raising 100 plus
18:44
chickens for, for the, you know, for the freezer, right?
18:47
Like they weren't egg land chickens.
18:49
They were fryers, man, We, you know, and you got to butcher
18:52
them and pull the, you know, pluck and do all those things.
18:54
And so, you know, it, it's the unexpected, you know, to be
18:58
prepared for the unexpected, but then to work really hard when it
19:02
comes up to, you know, not be so caught off guard that you can't
19:06
navigate. And, and sometimes you've got to
19:09
figure out how to improvise, you know, because the unexpected,
19:13
you don't always have everything you need.
19:16
You know, especially growing up in in the 80s on a farm, you
19:19
know, in southeast Kansas, you know, you're not making a ton of
19:22
money. You know, this wasn't, this
19:24
wasn't, you know, high end, you know, cattle ranching.
19:27
This is, this is like we're just trying to survive.
19:30
You have to improvise like, you know, how you can get the truck
19:33
started to deliver hay. You know, how you going to get
19:36
the, how you going to get the, the Baylor going back again and
19:39
what kind of wire you going to throw into it to make sure you
19:41
get that last little bit of hay up before the rain comes in.
19:44
And so, you know, improv, you know, got an improv to the point
19:47
where you can not just survive it, but really thrive in it and,
19:51
and come away from the end of the day knowing you accomplished
19:53
something. Yeah.
19:54
So. You mentioned your.
19:56
Grandfather, you mentioned your grandfather who was a huge
20:00
person, you know, mentor in your life, someone that you looked up
20:03
to. And I'm I'm curious because I
20:05
always, I always love to get the wisdom of.
20:08
Of older gentlemen when it comes to marriage, you know, your,
20:12
your grandparents were married for a long time.
20:14
Your parents are coming up on 50 years, you're coming up on 20
20:18
years. What are some of those lessons
20:20
that you feel like maybe we're passed down from generation to
20:23
generation accidentally of marriage and, and how you how
20:27
you work through marriage together.
20:29
But then what are some of the nuanced things that you've
20:31
discovered in marriage nowadays? Jeez so the I think the nuance
20:37
things that I just watched how my grandpa looked at my grandma
20:41
right? Like he died in in 1985 and and
20:47
I was 8 years old. I'm not sure how long they had
20:50
been married. You know, obviously they had
20:52
been married a while. They had three kids and, and,
20:55
you know, that that point they had eight grandchildren and, and
20:58
so they had been married, you know, a long time, but not
21:01
obviously not as long as they had hoped.
21:03
And so they were probably 30-40 years at that point maybe.
21:07
And, and I remember just the way that he looked at her, you know,
21:13
and then how my grandmother loved him.
21:16
Like he died in 85 and she died when she died, man.
21:21
She didn't. She died in I think it's
21:22
something I think I was living in Oregon when she died.
21:26
I had to fly back from Oregon for her funeral.
21:29
Like she never remarried. She never dated.
21:33
Like she kept her his picture by her bed.
21:36
There were pictures of him down the hallway of of the house on
21:38
the farm. And we sold a farm in her house
21:40
in in town. Like you could just see the love
21:44
that she had for him and the way that she still looked at him,
21:48
you know, and, and how she when she told stories about grandpa,
21:51
how, you know, her eyes would just light up.
21:54
And I was like, man, that's the kind of relationship I want to
21:58
have. Like that's the kind of marriage
21:59
I want is where I just I, where I walk in the room and my wife
22:04
is excited to see me. And when she walks in the room,
22:07
my eyes light up and I'm like, man, like, I just can't believe
22:10
you know that. So it wasn't so much because I
22:12
mean, I was, I was young. I didn't, you know, I wasn't
22:14
thinking anywhere close to marriage.
22:16
So for him, it was just watching him and how he interacted with
22:20
her and how he loved her so well.
22:21
Like, I still remember how he loved her well.
22:24
And they traveled together and they do all kinds of things to
22:27
have fun together. And it was just like, OK.
22:29
And they just laughed. Like I just remember them
22:31
laughing together, you know, And then my parents, you know, my
22:34
great, my grandparents on my mom's side, they were married
22:38
well past 50. I mean they were 60 plus, you
22:41
know, they were pushed that 60 to 70 years of marriage, you
22:44
know, when my granny and finally passed away and my granddad died
22:48
2 weeks later, like literally like she died and then he died 2
22:52
weeks later. And I can tell you because it
22:53
was a broken heart, like life just wasn't complete, you know,
22:58
and, and it wasn't at that point, you know, just watching
23:02
them together. They had nine kids and, and, and
23:04
so there's a lot of us always running around, but how they
23:06
just made time for family. And then just watching him love
23:10
her so well in the final days that she was with us.
23:14
Like it was just this like, like, I don't know, man.
23:18
It was a picture of like, this is what it's supposed to look
23:22
like. Like he's stroking her hair, you
23:25
know, he's brushing her hair and and she really isn't aware that
23:28
he's there and he just loves her.
23:30
You know, he just, he just loves her and you can just see it.
23:34
And then so that, you know, those two family kind of
23:36
dynamics played into my parents marriage.
23:38
And, and in fact, today we got a text from my my mom and asking
23:42
me about a name of somebody they had met at our house when they
23:46
were out here for a visit. And they were arguing over what
23:49
the actual name was because one heard one thing and one heard
23:51
another thing. And so they were asking us.
23:54
So we gave him the name and, and, and did we do what we said?
23:59
So who was right? Right.
24:01
Like they're arguing over this name.
24:02
And I'm like, I bet my mom is right.
24:05
And sure enough, she was. But it was like they were having
24:07
this big discussion over whether it was Maggie or Maddie.
24:11
And I'm like, like, you know, they're retired and they're just
24:15
loving life together. You know, it's like the
24:17
culmination of those these two marriages that they came out of,
24:20
you know, their parents on both sides, that they're just,
24:22
they're having fun and, and loving life together.
24:25
And it's just, it's just fun to watch and hear their little
24:28
arguments of, you know, what's the name of this person we met?
24:32
So. There really, There really is
24:34
something about being able to enjoy the small moments with
24:39
your spouse. And that means the good moments
24:42
and also the bad moments. I think there's something really
24:45
about, you know, because everyone talks about like, Oh
24:48
yeah, life is great, marriage is awesome.
24:51
You know, we're on cloud 9 and it's in the moments, it's in the
24:55
valleys, and we've talked about this before.
24:57
It's in the valleys where you see the growth.
24:59
It's in the valleys where you really develop your relationship
25:02
together, especially if you want a whole godly marriage.
25:08
I'm curious, with your marriage with Amy, what were some of
25:13
those Crucible moments for both of you that really brought you
25:17
closer and closer together, not only seeking one another, but
25:21
also seeking God at the same time?
25:23
Man, it feels like that's been our entire marriage.
25:25
Like we got married and you know, and you know, the thing,
25:30
you know, they say when once you're married, you know, the
25:32
first, you know, the first things you don't want to do is
25:34
move, change jobs, you know, like there's some big things you
25:38
don't want to do. Now we got married six months
25:40
later. We're moving halfway across the
25:42
country. We're changing jobs.
25:44
And then right before our one year anniversary, her brother
25:47
was killed in a motorcycle accident.
25:49
And you know, and so we're dealing with the death of her,
25:52
her baby brother. And then, you know, we, we've
25:56
just every step of the way, we've had these moments.
26:00
So, you know, we're dealing with the death of a brother.
26:03
And then we, we moved to Maine. One of the reasons we, we moved
26:08
east from, from Oregon was we felt like God was really calling
26:11
us to be closer to family and on specifically her side, like my
26:14
family's really good. They come and visit a lot, but
26:17
we needed to move closer to her family.
26:18
And we moved here and, and not just about 5-6 months after we
26:23
got here, her second brother died and from some health
26:27
complications due to a number of things.
26:30
And, you know, so we're struggling, you know, we've lost
26:33
two, you know, two brothers and, and then, and both of those are
26:38
like, now what do we do? Like the first funeral I ever
26:40
preach was my brother in law's, you know, he's, you know, he's
26:44
just this young kid and I'm, and, but we had to lean on each
26:47
other because we're like, what are we, you know, we can, we can
26:50
implode or we can, you know, really kind of just draw closer
26:53
together and being at each other for support.
26:57
And, and so we, we learned those lessons of just like, OK, when
27:01
life gets hard, we got to come together.
27:03
We got to, we got to make a priority to, to go on those
27:05
dates and to, to, to draw closer to God, spend time and prayer
27:09
together, spend time, you know, eating, eating together, find
27:12
those moments where we can just pull away.
27:16
This past August, our our son was in an accident and we spent
27:19
about 20 days in the hospital And it was really it was touch
27:23
and go for a bit. And, you know, we got
27:25
neurosurgeons and we got more doctors.
27:28
You know, we had every specialist in the hospital and
27:30
in the pick you with this. And and, and it was really at
27:34
that point we're like, man, we've we just got to pray.
27:38
And so we spent I mean, yeah, we're we didn't leave the
27:41
hospital for the first couple of days.
27:43
You know, we didn't leave the hospital.
27:45
Our daughter was staying with friends and then was at home,
27:47
but we we stay at the hospital. We just live there.
27:50
And when he was, when he was asleep or we were up or, or, you
27:55
know, at different points, we would just, we just stop, you
27:58
know, Hey, and we drew together. We prayed over him that God
28:01
would touch him, but we also just prayed that God would be
28:03
with us and that he would strengthen us and keep us calm
28:07
and keep us grounded in him. And, and we pray for each other
28:11
in the same manner that, you know, I pray that Amy would be
28:13
grounded and strong because I needed her to be strong.
28:15
And there were moments where she was really strong and she knew
28:22
what was going on from a medical because she works in the medical
28:24
field. And I was just falling apart.
28:27
And so when I was falling apart, you know, the timing of it was,
28:31
was perfect because when I was falling apart, she was actually
28:33
in a, one of her stronger moments.
28:34
And there would be moments where she started falling apart.
28:37
And I was actually in an OK good place.
28:40
And so in those moments, we just made sure that we took care of
28:42
each other. And you know what, what could
28:45
have ended really poorly, really badly, you know, could have been
28:49
obviously stress from, from the hospital and no sleep and, and
28:53
all the things could have really messed with our marriage.
28:56
We just allowed it to, to kind of form a bond between us.
29:01
It was really good and what we needed.
29:03
And we leaned on each other when we couldn't stand on our own.
29:07
We just, you know, fortunately the other person was stronger
29:09
and we just were honest about how we were feeling.
29:11
So I would just be like, I'm a mess right now.
29:14
I don't understand a single thing the doctors are saying.
29:15
And I don't know what if he's going to be OK?
29:19
And I'm falling apart. And she like it.
29:21
And she'd explain it to me and I'd be like, OK, but she was
29:24
strong in that. And then there are moments that
29:25
she needed me to be the strong guy.
29:27
And I'm like, OK, he's good. Like I just had a conversation
29:30
with them. And, you know, it's it's OK.
29:32
We're in good shape. And so, yeah, you know, there
29:36
have throughout our marriage, it feels like we've had just these
29:40
constant moments of of Crucible moments, like you said, that
29:45
have just forced us to kind of make a decision like how are we
29:47
going to how are we going to move forward with this?
29:50
And how are we going to guide, you know, live our life in a way
29:53
that our marriage doesn't just survive but really thrives post
29:59
event? You know, and so we just made
30:02
the decision like this is what we're going to.
30:04
Do It's interesting because there really is this piece with
30:07
like when you first get married, you kind of don't really know
30:11
enough about kind of I'll say cycles of where we are in life.
30:15
You know, you know, maybe you're both not doing well at the same
30:19
time and maybe you're both on a high, right?
30:21
You're both living high, you know, when you first get married
30:24
and then maybe you're both going through the slums together and
30:26
you're the reason why I'm here. Well, you're the reason why I'm.
30:29
Here. But as you progress in marriage,
30:33
you know, I think what Willow and I are almost, I think we're
30:36
on 13 years or something like that.
30:38
I don't even know anymore. Applause count, but.
30:41
Once. The older in your marriage,
30:46
there is that ebb and flow where the other person is carrying the
30:50
other person. It it kind of goes back and
30:52
forth. And you mentioned kind of the
30:55
wilderness. I mean, obviously you mentioned
30:58
the wilderness a couple times, but there's these moments where
31:03
you're in the wilderness, you're going through something
31:05
difficult. I'm curious, how important is
31:08
surrender in that entire process of being in the wilderness and
31:13
not trying to, you know, grab the reins and make it happen?
31:17
Because you and I have been in the in, you know, the personal
31:20
growth industry for a while. And that's that's what people
31:24
told Grab, grab life by the bootstraps and make it happen.
31:28
It has to be you that makes it happen.
31:30
I have something to say about that.
31:32
But I'm curious, where does surrender her come into all this
31:35
for you? Man, the only way you can shift
31:39
your perspective on the wilderness is to surrender.
31:42
And I, I think so often we try and deny that we're there.
31:45
Like it took me, it took me watering grass in July and
31:52
looking at my yard and being like, I have aerated it.
31:55
I have, I have watered it every night.
31:57
My water bill was through the roof.
32:00
My, my utility bill was through the roof because I was spending
32:02
so much time trying to water my yard back to life.
32:07
And, and you know, I finally had to let go of trying to control
32:13
the outcome. You know, you, you can't shift
32:17
your perspective of the wilderness, whether it's in
32:19
marriage struggles or it's in, in life struggles or it's
32:23
burning out or whatever. You can't shift your view of
32:26
what the wilderness is like. It's horrible and it's dry and I
32:31
just got to get through it. Until you surrender to the fact
32:33
that you're in it, it's you're not denying, you know, surrender
32:37
isn't denying the truth that you're in the wilderness.
32:40
Surrender is recognizing, yes, I am here and I may be here longer
32:44
than I want, but I can shift my perspective and I can see it as
32:48
better than it really is. If I'm willing to surrender to
32:52
the fact I can't use the same tools, I can't, I can't keep
32:56
doing the same things. I have no control.
32:59
Like it controls an illusion in, in the wilderness like you're,
33:03
you really are, you're you can think.
33:06
I just got to work harder. I, I've got to work smarter.
33:08
I mean, I, I did it all. I was like, I got to work
33:10
harder. I got to work smarter.
33:11
Even in, you know, in those times that was, you know,
33:14
probably some of the rougher patches for our marriage because
33:17
I wasn't sleeping and I was miserable in my own soul.
33:20
And, you know, I was taking it out of my family and I was short
33:23
tempered and, and, and all those things.
33:27
And when I finally surrender to the fact, one, there's nothing I
33:30
can do to get myself out of the wilderness.
33:33
I just have to walk through it. And I surrender to that fact.
33:37
And I surrender to the fact I can't control the outcome of who
33:40
I'm going to be at the end of this, but I can surrender to the
33:44
fact that I could be transformed by it and be actually become
33:48
better if I'm willing. And you just, I had to take my
33:51
hands off and be like, OK, God, let's go.
33:55
And and, and it was not a path that that I expected that.
34:00
I mean, the, the, the, the to get through the wilderness was
34:04
not easy. And it's, you know, it was not
34:07
the path. I would have said, well, this is
34:08
the straight path. We might as well just go this
34:10
way. And so I surrender to it.
34:13
And it, and it just, it was that change.
34:16
It was at that step that really began to shift the perspective
34:20
of how I saw what I was experiencing.
34:24
I wilderness seasons are vital to our growth.
34:28
They just, they just are wilderness seasons are, are, are
34:31
are where we experienced the greatest transformation in our
34:34
lives because we can't control everything around us.
34:39
We can't control our environment.
34:40
We can't control. The only thing we can really do
34:44
is control whether or not we surrender and let God shift our
34:48
perspective on what we're seeing.
34:50
And so surrender is massive. Like you can't, you can't get
34:53
through the wilderness. You can't last in marriage.
34:56
You know, I, I tell when I do premarital counseling, I tell
34:59
people, you got to surrender to this idea that it's 5050 because
35:02
it's not your marriage is not 5050.
35:06
It's a hundred 100. Like you got to give everything
35:10
up for this person and discover who you are together.
35:15
And I know that that won't set. Will people be like, well, I got
35:17
to be my own. But marriage is not 5050, man.
35:20
It is. There are there are days where,
35:23
you know, I need my wife to be more than what I can handle, and
35:27
there's days she needs me to be more than than what she can
35:31
handle. And, and it requires if I'm just
35:33
giving 50% of myself to that, I can't do that.
35:36
It's a hundred, a hundred, like you're in it all the way.
35:38
So that only happens when you surrender through you know what
35:42
your view is or what your ideas are so that you can shift your
35:45
perspective. Yeah.
35:47
I mean, it's, it really is important this perspective piece
35:51
that, you know, how you view your life and the context of
35:55
life is really important. Like as we were talking, we were
35:58
talking earlier before we even started about Corey Temboom of
36:01
like, you know, thanking God for the fleas.
36:04
And if you don't know anything about that, go read, go read a
36:07
book on Corey Temboom and and learn about her sister Betsy
36:10
talking about the fleas and being thankful for the fleas and
36:16
how our perspective needs to change on our environment and
36:20
everything going on. I am curious though, how often
36:23
do you think wilderness journeys are?
36:26
Like, how often are we going through the wilderness journey
36:29
because we just haven't learned the lesson that, you know, I've
36:33
heard some people say sometimes God teaches you with a feather.
36:37
He just kind of like, gently caresses you and says, go this
36:40
way, go that way. And then most of my life has
36:43
just been a nice, hard 2 by 4 because I don't get it the first
36:46
time. How often are wilderness
36:48
experiences because we just aren't learning the lesson and
36:52
we're continually going back to the same stuff that we should
36:55
have left behind to begin with. Yeah, man.
37:01
I think we probably go through them more often than we want
37:03
because we just won't learn the lesson.
37:05
You know, you think about the Israelites and it you know, it
37:07
should have taken and you know, from Egypt to Canaan, you know,
37:11
if you look at a map, it's, you know, from, from leaving where
37:15
you know, Egypt was in the and into the promised land there,
37:18
you know, that would become Israel.
37:20
You know, it should have taken them just a few weeks.
37:22
You know, like it shouldn't have taken very long.
37:25
It took him 40 years, 40 years, Entire generation died off
37:28
before they stepped foot into the promised land.
37:32
And I think part of it was because, you know, God, you
37:34
know, they had got it taken them out of slavery.
37:39
But it took 40 years for them to stop thinking like slaves, Like
37:45
it took 40 years to take the slavery out of them.
37:50
And so I think sometimes we get stuck in these wilderness cycles
37:53
and, and not everybody who goes into a wilderness obviously is
37:56
burning out. It tends to be those leaders who
37:59
were like, I've just got it. I, I've got to force myself out
38:02
of this situation. But I think for most of us, we,
38:06
we wander in the wilderness and, and, and there's, there's, there
38:11
are places of rest, right? Like even in the wilderness,
38:14
there were places where they came to the rock and there was
38:16
water and you know, and God provided manna and, and know,
38:19
there are places of, you know, of Oasis in the wilderness where
38:23
you can stop and, and, and kind of recalibrate and recoup and
38:27
get ready for the next, you know, the next piece of it.
38:29
But the, I think we, we wander in the wilderness longer than
38:34
we're supposed to because we simply just don't learn the, the
38:37
lesson. And again, that comes back to
38:40
your surrender question, right? Like you've got to surrender
38:44
your identity. You've got to surrender your,
38:47
your perspective of the place that you're in from a place that
38:51
you just have to get through to a place that you can come out
38:54
of, right? Like God brought the Israelites
38:57
out of, out of out of the wilderness into the promised
39:01
land. And they were different people,
39:03
you know, like they, they didn't trust.
39:06
They didn't trust when they got there the first time and they're
39:09
like, well, we can't go in and attack this land.
39:11
You know it because the the giants.
39:14
But they had just seen God provide manna in the desert and
39:17
they had seen God. You know, there is that they did
39:20
not change their perspective even though they had seen
39:23
everything. So the lesson still wasn't
39:24
learned. They had to go through, you
39:26
know, they circled. They circle that mountain a long
39:30
time, man. I think we circle the mountains
39:32
a long time trying to get out of the wilderness because we simply
39:35
just won't surrender to the lesson that is there right in
39:37
front of us. And if we just did the first
39:39
time, I can only think there are times that if I had just learned
39:43
the lesson the first time, I wouldn't be they wouldn't have
39:47
taken me so long to get to where I am in certain areas of my
39:49
life. Like, yeah, I, I wouldn't have
39:53
struggled at times in our marriage if I had learned the
39:55
lesson the first time around. Like they're, you know, those
39:58
areas are marriage where we just, we kind of butt heads
40:00
because we're two different people, right?
40:02
And, and we butt heads on things.
40:03
And if I had learned how to, how to handle things better and you
40:08
know, those areas of conflict for us, if I had to handle
40:11
things better and learn the lesson the first time instead of
40:14
the 3rd or 4th or 5th or 10th, you know, I, I could have saved
40:17
myself a lot of grief, but I didn't learn the lesson because
40:21
I didn't want to. But shift my perspective or
40:25
learn something new or I thought my way was right and I just
40:29
needed to, you know, I just need to keep trying.
40:32
And so I think it's, I think it's interesting too.
40:35
That you, you talk about how, you know, not everyone in the
40:39
wilderness is necessarily burning out or burnt out, but I
40:44
would say that quite a few people actually are burnt out in
40:48
the wilderness because they don't recognize just how much of
40:53
a broken cycle they're in. They keep doing the same thing
40:56
over and over. You know, it's that it's that
40:58
stupid Einstein quote that everyone wants to talk about,
41:00
you know, doing the same thing over and over.
41:03
But we do that. We do that as human beings where
41:06
we go, well, this has to work. If I do it one more time, if,
41:09
you know, maybe if I buy one more lottery ticket, maybe,
41:12
maybe if I do this one more time, maybe if I have a
41:15
different marriage, life will be better.
41:17
Maybe if I get a different job, this will be better.
41:20
And we and we continually burn ourselves out trying to find a
41:25
different way. I'm curious because you'd
41:28
mentioned, you know, obviously you wrote a book on it, but
41:31
yeah, it's working on it. Yeah.
41:34
Working, working, working. It's.
41:36
It's in process. Yeah, I actually set it down.
41:38
I started working on the palm tree resiliency idea.
41:41
I call it the palm tree philosophy.
41:43
And I'm kind of wrestling with what does it mean to be a palm
41:45
tree? So I've, I've kind of put the
41:47
wilderness thing aside for a bit, partly because of I, I've
41:52
still got some lessons to learn and I don't feel as complete,
41:57
but yeah, so anyway, go ahead. I, I, I the books on the, the
42:01
book is, is in the process. Like it's, I, I go and tinker on
42:05
it, right? Like, I go and I sit down and I
42:06
tinker on it for a while and I put it like, I 'cause I, I, I
42:10
realized something new, man. I'm like, Dang it, I haven't
42:13
figured it out yet. So the book.
42:16
When it does come out, it's going to be amazing because of
42:18
all the yeah, yeah. But I think.
42:22
I think it's true that we all kind of get to this place of
42:25
doing the same thing over and over, and then we get to a place
42:29
of tiredness and then we end up burning out.
42:32
What what are some of the things that you've recognized in your
42:35
own life that led you to burn out?
42:38
Those those consistent things that maybe you kept doing over
42:41
and over, but you didn't quite realize that that was a thing
42:44
that was burning you out. Yeah.
42:47
I was spending a lot more time working harder and trying to
42:51
control more, right? Like, I couldn't, I couldn't
42:54
delegate. I had to make sure that
42:56
everything was, was just the way I saw it in my head.
43:00
You know, I, I couldn't, I couldn't trust A-Team to, to
43:04
execute on my vision. And it wasn't because I didn't
43:07
love them or trust them. It was that I, I, I needed it to
43:12
go a certain way so I could see a certain outcome.
43:15
And I, I didn't, it was, again, I, I trusted my team, but I had
43:21
to make sure that it looked good because I felt that if it looked
43:24
good, then people wouldn't see past the facade that I was in
43:28
trouble. And so I worked harder.
43:31
You know, I, I love what, when I'm talking with somebody about,
43:35
about their life and where they're at and, and I'm kind of
43:38
asking questions, you know, in a, in a session, you know, I, I
43:42
asked him about margin. You know, what's the margin look
43:45
like in your life? Because the first thing to go
43:48
when you're trying to control everything and you're burning
43:51
out is a margin because you know, you, you, you know what
43:55
burning out is, It's burning the candle both ends, you know,
43:57
hoping that you're going to, you know, you're going to light your
44:00
path. And the margin is the first
44:02
thing to go, you know, and I, and I point that I, I pick up a
44:05
paper book because the only way you can show it, it really is in
44:08
a paper book. But I, you know, I show them a
44:11
book. I'll be like, look at the book
44:14
you could just don't read. Don't worry about the words and
44:15
what it says it and it doesn't matter what book it is.
44:18
Look at a book and the majority of a page of a book is margin.
44:24
There's space between the lines, there's space between the
44:26
letters and there's margin all the way around.
44:29
If you put all, if you if you crammed all the words where
44:32
there was no space and they just they literally touched to go
44:35
through, they wouldn't take up much of the page.
44:39
The page is mostly in the page of a book is mostly margin.
44:43
And so when I have burned my margin, when I have tried to put
44:50
too much into the lines, when I have tried to fill the space on
44:54
the edges and on the top and then the bottom, that's when I
44:58
know that I am, I'm operating out of a place.
45:01
I mean, you can call it scarcity mindset if you want to.
45:05
I'm operating out of a space of, of there's not enough and, and I
45:09
have to be in control. And so things start to go.
45:12
My, my, my Sabbath is, is one of the things when I'm, you know,
45:18
I'm working seven days a week. You know, my, my day off is not
45:21
a day off. I'm, I'm up at, you know, I'm
45:25
waking up at, at 2:30 or 3:00 in the morning consistently.
45:29
And I'm, and I'm spinning in my head, you know, I'm feeling 24,
45:34
I'm feeling 24 hours with 27 hours worth of stuff, right?
45:38
So I think margin is the biggest for me anyway.
45:43
I think for most people, they just, they, they may not name it
45:46
that. I think for most people, it's
45:47
margin is gone because they're trying to control and they're
45:51
trying to, to, to get the outcome that they desire.
45:55
So it looks good, right? And we don't realize that like
45:59
if you fill a page with too much content, it doesn't look good.
46:04
It, it, it really, it's just a mess.
46:06
Like it's, it's not legible. You can't read it.
46:09
Well, it's hard to look at, you know, and we think it looks OK
46:13
and people on the outside are going I, that is a mess.
46:18
Like I have no desire to read what's on that page, right.
46:21
And so I did, I pull out a piece of paper where I've showed them,
46:24
I've removed the margins and I've put words like I've, I've
46:27
tightened the spacing and I've, you know, I show them this is
46:30
what it looks like when we are in, when we refuse to recognize
46:34
we're in the wilderness and we refuse to let go and surrender
46:38
to this, this perspective shift. For me, it's, it's my margin is
46:44
gone. And when margin is gone, there's
46:47
no contentment. I'm, I'm, I'm irritable.
46:50
I'm, there's, there's no, there's no peace, right?
46:55
Like my, my, my reactions, I'm more reactionary than
47:00
responsive. And so I just know when you
47:05
know, and I, and, and I'm pretty, I am, I've gotten to a
47:08
point where I can tell when I started putting even just a
47:10
little bit into the margin and I bled over just a little bit
47:14
because I've become more reactionary.
47:17
That's one of the first things I noticed when my margin is gone
47:19
is that I'm reactionary. You know, I, I, I kind of set a
47:23
goal for this year to be fuller. You know, I want to live a
47:25
fuller life, graceful, peaceful, merciful, joyful, like that's
47:30
the kind of full life I want. And and I'm not talking about
47:34
moving well, I'm talking about encounters with people.
47:38
I want to be more grace giving than than reactionary.
47:41
And so for me, and I think for a lot of people, especially
47:45
leaders, it's, it's the margin piece that's gone first when
47:49
they're in the wilderness and they're trying to control stuff.
47:51
And, and, and that's the truth that that's for me what I see,
47:56
but it's what I see in other leaders, at least that that's
47:59
how I but I have that bent, right?
48:01
Like that's how I'm always going to see things because that's how
48:03
it showed up in my life. And so I know that, that, you
48:06
know, it's kind of that bias. That's what I'd look for, but
48:11
I'm not, I haven't been wrong too often.
48:13
You know, I don't know what everybody's margin is.
48:16
I don't know what they're, you know, what they can handle.
48:18
But when people are reactionary, I'm like, man, there's there's,
48:22
there's they're too tight someplace like there's not
48:24
enough margin. It it could be some it and it
48:27
may not be in control. They may not be a leader.
48:29
But if there's, you know, the reactionary things that we see,
48:35
I think it's a lot of times because we're living so
48:37
stretched in a Mart in an area of our life.
48:39
And the more areas we give the margin away and we try and fill
48:44
the the closer we we move into that true broken, burned out
48:48
state. Yeah, well, it's I, I.
48:52
Love what you say because everyone truly is trying to fill
48:55
the margin in. I mean, even even when you go
48:58
into like a, a growth environment, you know, what does
49:01
everyone's talk about? Like, OK, let's look at your
49:03
calendar and then we're going to map out every single minute of
49:07
your calendar of what do you do? Every single, I mean, if you've
49:10
been in like any personal growth thing, you've, you've gone
49:13
through it, you've gone through the documentation of, you know,
49:15
oh man, I went to the bathroom for two minutes longer than I
49:18
should have. That could have been productive
49:20
time time, but we're constant like even our phones, our phones
49:25
have to remind us to turn off our phone at night.
49:29
Hey, it's time to go to sleep. If you want a good four hours of
49:33
sleep, you need to turn your phone off now.
49:35
And it's, it's this constant reminder of we are fighting for
49:40
margin. And it, it's interesting
49:42
because, you know, here in the West, when we look around like
49:46
our houses are filled, our schedules are filled, our
49:50
fridges are filled. Excess is not a problem.
49:55
It's margin that seems to be the problem.
49:58
I love how you were talking about your goal this year of,
50:02
of, you know, being more full. You also have another goal this
50:06
year of wanting to help 10 to 20 men rediscover what they were
50:11
created for, which, you know, sounds like a pretty big
50:15
undertaking. I'm.
50:18
I'm curious what? What does identity play in that
50:23
role of helping men discover who they were created to be?
50:27
What what? What were they created for?
50:29
How important is identity in all of that?
50:32
Identity is huge. Right, Like if you don't know
50:35
who you are, like you don't know you, you can't really figure out
50:39
your purpose and in life. And so identity is huge.
50:43
And you know, I, I, I struggle a lot with some of the, the
50:48
current concepts of, of what it means to be a man because I feel
50:54
like it's one guy saying, well, this is my identity.
50:57
And so everybody has to look like this, right?
51:00
But the unique thing about each one of us is the God created
51:03
each of us differently. And so you know, like, like I
51:09
want to help people tap into their God-given identity.
51:13
And, and 1st it's to know that they are loved, that they are
51:18
valued and that they have a real purpose in life.
51:23
And that's, and that shows up differently and everybody's
51:26
experience, right? So like, what does it mean to be
51:30
love for somebody? It is, is so impacted by things
51:37
that they've experienced in their life.
51:40
You know, I, I recently I went through a certification for,
51:44
with, with an organization Mike Foster and his primal question.
51:48
And, you know, looking at these seven questions and I and I
51:51
realized like what people need are different.
51:55
Like my question is not your question.
51:57
And though even if it is my question and your question are
52:01
going to look very different and how they're answered.
52:04
And I think so often we're scrambling for an answer and we,
52:09
we hear all these things, all this is what it looks like to be
52:12
a real man, or this is what looks like to be a real leader,
52:14
or this is what it looks like to be.
52:16
And, and it is in some, there's some Ruth to it, like there's,
52:21
there's truth in that. But like who I am, I can't
52:26
expect somebody else to look like me because their
52:30
experiences are different. And so identity is huge.
52:32
But I think it comes down to the core of the core three things of
52:37
who am I loved, Do I have value and do I have purpose?
52:41
And when you settled in on the fact that I am loved, I do have
52:44
value and I do have purpose, then you can start to figure out
52:48
who you are. And, and I think sometimes, you
52:52
know, that that burnout piece, especially in the wilderness, is
52:56
that struggle to figure out those am I really loved?
52:59
Not for what I give, not for what I can do or provide or, you
53:04
know, like I, I've, I've risen to a certain place.
53:09
Am I really love for me? Am I really valued for me?
53:12
Am I safe? You know, the, the seven
53:14
questions really dive into this and each one of us is wrestling
53:18
with a different question. And, and and so helping men
53:23
figure out the answer to the question that their soul is
53:27
asking and then helping them see, you know, that they are
53:31
loved. They do have value and it's not
53:32
because they provide something, but can simply because they
53:35
exist. And then their purpose is
53:37
something that's so much bigger than themselves and, and helping
53:41
them tap into that. So identity is huge to the to
53:45
this, this wrestling and and and figuring out their who they're
53:51
supposed to be. And and it doesn't it, it's not
53:54
one-size-fits-all. You know, there are guys that I,
53:57
I'm working with it and they are not going to go spend a weekend
54:04
camping and the wilderness, you know, hunting, fishing, sitting
54:09
around the fire, you know, drinking whiskey and smoking
54:12
cigars. Like that's just not what
54:14
they're going to do. That's not who they are, you
54:17
know, so I can't force them to do something like that, right?
54:22
Like that's not going to help them tap into who they are and
54:24
their identity and the God-given value and loved and purpose that
54:29
they have in their life. So I got to help them figure out
54:31
a different way. And so, you know, I, I, I think
54:35
we have to be careful when it comes to identity of, of this is
54:37
what it's supposed to look like to be a man.
54:39
And again, there may be people who don't like that, but I think
54:44
that, that we are so individually and beautifully
54:47
created in such a different way, You know, like we've, we've got
54:51
to figure that out. Like what happens if you lose
54:53
something that is, you've held a value, right?
54:56
Like I'm, I'm just going to be, I'll be perfectly transparent,
55:00
right? We're we're wrestling with that
55:01
with our son, you know, since his accident, you know, his, his
55:05
the neurosurgeon and he's fine. I'll just put that out there.
55:08
He's he's totally fine to win everything, you know.
55:10
But you know, he his neurosurgeon after his accident
55:13
was like contact sports are off. My son plays hockey or my son
55:19
plays football and lacrosse. Those are two like contact
55:23
sports, like the three sports. Yeah, the three sports.
55:27
That he mentioned. Specifically were football,
55:29
hockey and lacrosse. And my son plays two of three
55:33
like, So what happens now? Like he's he's a junior high kid
55:38
and if his identity is wrapped up solely in what sport he's
55:42
able to play now, he's lost the ability for safety.
55:46
I mean, he's fine, but you know, there's there's danger now in
55:51
him playing something like this. If he lose, he's lost that.
55:55
Does he lose his identity because our current contacts
55:59
would say that if he's not gung ho and out there on the football
56:03
field bashing heads with somebody, what's he doing like?
56:08
So I, I think there's a real danger when we try and
56:10
pigeonhole what it looks like to be the, to be male, to be man
56:17
to, to, to be a real man or whatever, whatever kind of
56:20
language you want to put around that, to say it has to look like
56:24
this. It's a real danger.
56:25
Because then it's like I'm stripping away somebody else's
56:28
identity to fit my construct of what it looks like.
56:32
And I just don't believe that's how God created us, right?
56:36
Like, and that's the beauty of, that's the beauty of creation.
56:39
That's the beauty of of, of discovering who you really are
56:44
in Christ. But it's knowing you're loved,
56:46
you're valued, and you have purpose.
56:48
Even if everything around you that you're supposed to be
56:51
changes, you still have, you still loved.
56:53
You still have value and self purpose.
56:55
There's such an amount of power. In what you've said, I read
56:58
First Corinthians 12 and 13 on Saturday and I had a good buddy
57:01
come over at 5:00 in the morning we're talking and I was like, I
57:05
just realized something. I've, I've read First
57:07
Corinthians a number of times. I've everyone has read the love
57:11
chapter. It seems like, you know, love is
57:12
patient, love is kind, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
57:15
But when you read chapter 12 and then go directly into chapter
57:21
13, it throws chapter 13 completely for a loop.
57:26
Because chapter 12, Paul is talking about how, hey, you guys
57:31
are all fighting over what gifts that you have and which are the
57:33
best gifts. And this is the best gift and
57:35
that's the best gift. Well, here's here's what I want
57:38
to tell you. The transition from 12 to 13 is
57:43
none of the gifts matter as long as there's love.
57:47
Yeah, then. It all comes back to love, which
57:49
is. Exactly what you're saying and
57:51
even from like a hubreic context, you look at what is
57:55
useful to society, what is useful to your community, What
57:59
does it look like to love on other people?
58:01
It's to use the gifts or use whatever you have at your
58:04
disposal to serve other people. And it might be that you're
58:08
like, it's funny because we, we write off much of our elderly,
58:13
right? The people that are older that
58:15
maybe aren't physically as able, but yet they have a powerful
58:19
ability to listen. And how many people need someone
58:25
to have a listening ear to what's going on in their life,
58:28
not fix, but to listen. And it's, it's just really funny
58:31
because as you talk about this love value purpose, it starts
58:36
with love discovering how you give value.
58:40
And that brings purpose to everything that you do.
58:43
As long as you're loving people in a way that adds value to
58:46
them, it creates purpose in your life.
58:49
It creates purpose in other people's life, which, I don't
58:52
know, it's just funny because as you're talking about this, I was
58:54
like, man, this is so good. Like, it confirms everything
58:57
I've been feeling lately. Thanks, Rob.
58:59
Like this. Yeah.
59:00
It's been a really good therapy. Session.
59:03
Yeah. Well, hey, and keep this in
59:05
mind, man, Paul is writing First Corinthians not to a husband and
59:09
wife like 13 is not written to a married couple.
59:12
Yeah, although we like it's written to a church.
59:14
Like we think it is. It's written to a church and how
59:17
you relate with your community around you like it's all
59:20
community. It's all it's like the larger
59:23
picture. It's not so and I get it.
59:25
I have read I have read First Corinthians 13 at numerous
59:29
weddings and we've done. Everyone I am.
59:33
Guilty. Of doing that.
59:35
But man, like it, it's in the context of community, like the,
59:40
the greater community, not some, you know, and it's, it's great
59:43
for individual couples and, and all as well because that's still
59:46
community. But yeah, like it, it, it comes
59:49
back to this idea of what does it look like to, to be in
59:51
community and, and to know your love, because once you know your
59:54
love, you're not seeking value from anything.
59:57
You're like, man, how do I give how I, I am valuable because I'm
1:00:01
loved, right? So how do I share that?
1:00:04
You know I, I tell. I tell people all the time, you
1:00:07
know, especially, you know, in my own church context, I tell
1:00:11
people, you know, listen, like people want to be heard And and
1:00:15
and there's a saying, you know, that that being heard and being
1:00:18
loved are so are so intimately tied together that people can't
1:00:24
tell them apart. Like when people are heard, like
1:00:27
we're really listen to they feel loved.
1:00:31
Like that's, I mean, the fact that people just being heard
1:00:37
makes them feel loved, that the man tells you that there's
1:00:40
something right. Like that tells you that there's
1:00:43
something missing if if we need people to just simply be heard
1:00:49
and, and stills and then the sense of that they are a loved
1:00:51
individual man, that man, that breaks my heart.
1:00:55
Like like, so yeah, hearing people out is a huge piece, you
1:01:02
know, and well, we're we're our families watching the rookie
1:01:06
right now, right? Like, you know, this middle-aged
1:01:09
guy trying to start his life over.
1:01:11
And, you know, we just started a couple months ago and, and our
1:01:14
rehab season and, and, and so we're walking through the rookie
1:01:19
and, and the episode we watched last night was, was this 48 year
1:01:24
old woman who's trying to become an FBI agent.
1:01:26
You know, she's a former counselor now she's going to be
1:01:27
an FBI agent. And just the, the way that that
1:01:31
Nolan's character was like, you know, you have something to
1:01:34
offer that the younger generation doesn't have and you
1:01:38
have a wisdom that they don't have yet.
1:01:40
Use that superpower, you know, and so like, imagine if we were
1:01:45
to say, what's the wisdom that these, these people who've gone
1:01:49
before me, right, the people who've survived the wilderness a
1:01:53
lot longer than I have, Like, what's the wisdom I can gain
1:01:56
from that? You know, the, the one who
1:01:58
helped me out the most is this, you know, she's, she's probably
1:02:01
in her 60s and my spiritual director, man, she's pointing
1:02:04
out, she's she's pushing buttons that I don't want her to push in
1:02:07
my life, but she helped me get through the wilderness.
1:02:09
She's like, that tool doesn't work anymore.
1:02:11
Like she just called me out. Like, like I'd be saying, well,
1:02:14
this is what it's like. That doesn't work anymore.
1:02:17
And it'll be like, no, but it's like, no, it doesn't work
1:02:18
anymore. Like, but there's so much wisdom
1:02:21
that she has had because of what her own life experiences brought
1:02:25
her. And so listening to her and I'm
1:02:26
being like, oh Dang, she's so right.
1:02:32
Oh man, that is, it's so powerful.
1:02:35
I, I have one more question here as we wrap up.
1:02:38
You know, and by the way, for you, for all of you guys
1:02:40
listening, if today's conversation resonates with you,
1:02:42
I really want to encourage you to go connect with Rob Golson,
1:02:46
not Gossen, because I've been pronouncing it wrong for my, for
1:02:49
our entire relationship and I never corrected you, but it's
1:02:52
OK. Never.
1:02:53
It's my my my fault for not correcting you.
1:02:55
Drives me crazy. But if you want to.
1:02:57
Connect with Rob and his work, especially through shifting the
1:03:02
wilderness. You could go check him out on
1:03:05
social media, specifically Instagram at Shifting the
1:03:08
Wilderness. You can find him.
1:03:10
That's his handle. But if you also are looking for
1:03:13
a coach, someone to help you in the leadership trials that
1:03:16
you're going through, he's a great guy to reach out to,
1:03:19
especially if you feel like you're going through a burnout,
1:03:21
if you feel like you're longing to have a healthier life and a
1:03:24
more sustainable way to live, definitely reach out.
1:03:28
And if you're following him on on Instagram, you'll actually
1:03:31
get to see a lot of his writings, his coaching and a lot
1:03:34
of the resources that he provides.
1:03:36
Rob the whole show more than before.
1:03:39
I've loved it because it really does focus on the idea of us
1:03:43
constantly getting better. I'm curious, what does it look
1:03:47
like for you to be more than before?
1:03:49
What does that mean to you? Well, I kind of summed it up
1:03:52
with. With, you know, wanting a fuller
1:03:53
life, you know, I want, I want this next year to, to really be
1:04:00
a year that I look back on and be like, man, I was better at
1:04:03
loving people. I was better at offering grace.
1:04:06
I was better at being merciful. I lived, I was a joyful person
1:04:10
to be around. You know, if I can get to the
1:04:14
end of 2026 and be like, I'm a better person and, and I was, I
1:04:20
was more of these things, right? I was more graceful and peaceful
1:04:24
and merciful and lovable, lovable and, and loving and,
1:04:27
and, and joyful. And man, if I can do that, like
1:04:33
it'll be a win, right? Like even if some of the other
1:04:37
things that I hope to accomplish here don't don't come through,
1:04:40
but people who encounter me like, man, I just I just felt
1:04:45
joy when I was around Rob, man, that that would be a better way.
1:04:48
That would to me. That would be more than before.
1:04:51
Like that would like more than before anything else.
1:04:54
And and then people could look at my life and be like, man, you
1:04:57
went through some crap, dude. Like that was rough.
1:05:00
And be like, yeah, how are you still standing?
1:05:03
Is because I'm just, I'm just decided I'm going to be more
1:05:06
than that. I'm not going to let I'm going
1:05:09
to yes, it's part of my story, but it's not the defining piece
1:05:12
of my story. And so more than before, is, is
1:05:15
more graceful, especially graceful man right now.
1:05:18
I feel like that's the thing we need.
1:05:20
We need more grace with people and, and as a follower of and of
1:05:25
the teachings of Jesus, Like I'm, I'm doing everything I can
1:05:28
to follow hard after his way. I'm not perfect by any stress,
1:05:31
even even though I'm a pastor, I'm not perfect by any stress of
1:05:34
the imagination. Just ask my kids right like
1:05:38
that. That's, that's the real test of,
1:05:40
of my faith, man, is to ask my kids.
1:05:42
And I'm not perfect at any stretch, but man, if I could be
1:05:45
more graceful this year, and I'm not talking about how I move.
1:05:49
Like, you know, I, I, I wrote that recently.
1:05:51
I said, man, I just want to be more graceful.
1:05:52
And so like, oh, you want to be, you know, move better.
1:05:54
Like no, I want to be full of grace.
1:05:57
Like that's what I want my year to be.
1:05:59
I want my like that if I could pick one to be more than before,
1:06:02
I want to be more graceful. Like that would be a huge, I
1:06:07
think, bonus to this year because I think everything falls
1:06:12
out of that. I think that's the perfect thing
1:06:14
to say. Because for all of you guys
1:06:17
listening, it's not about more than before, of just you being
1:06:21
more than before. It's about who are the people in
1:06:23
your life that you want to help become more than before.
1:06:27
In fact, don't leave your friends and family and all the
1:06:30
people that you know in the dirt.
1:06:33
Help them be more than before by sharing this episode like I did
1:06:37
that Rob, it has been such a blessing to have you on.
1:06:42
I love talking with you. You're such a a trove of wisdom
1:06:46
and follow you guys listening. Make sure you go follow him.
1:06:49
You will. You will not regret it.
1:06:50
There's some great stuff on his social media accounts that that
1:06:53
you're really going to value. Until next time, remember to be
1:06:56
more, see more, and experience more than before.