Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #980 The Anxious Generation With Jonathan Haidt

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#980 The Anxious Generation With Jonathan Haidt · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast.
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  Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: answers Now. Hello, Welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. My
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  Speaker 2: name is doctor Justin Colson. Every Wednesday we bring you
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  Speaker 2: an interview with somebody who knows stuff that you need
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  Speaker 2: to know so that you can make you family happier. Today,
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  Speaker 2: an interview with an author, in fact, the world's leading
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  Speaker 2: most recognized academic thinker. I would have loved to have
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  Speaker 2: had him with me to have this conversation, but some
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  Speaker 2: people are just a bit too hard to get a
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  Speaker 2: hold of. And so what I've done today is lent
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  Speaker 2: heavily on a podcast interview that Professor Jonathan Hate from
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  Speaker 2: New York University had with Barry Weiss on The Honesty Podcast.
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to just share a couple of quick snippets
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  Speaker 2: of what he had to say, share a few of
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  Speaker 2: my own ideas around that as well, and hopefully have
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  Speaker 2: a really constructive conversation that sounds like an interview based
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  Speaker 2: on his brand new book, The Anxious Generation. So let
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  Speaker 2: me tell you a bit about who Jonathan is. Many
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  Speaker 2: years ago I read one of his first books. I
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  Speaker 2: think it might have even been his first book. It
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  Speaker 2: was called The Happiness Hypothesis. It remains to this day
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  Speaker 2: my favorite book about well being and happiness. The guy
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  Speaker 2: is just a phenomenal thinker and such a clear communicator.
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  Speaker 2: You might also have heard of Jonathan Hyde in his
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  Speaker 2: book The Righteous Mind or The Coddling of the American Mind.
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  Speaker 2: The new book is called The Anxious Generation. I've pre
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  Speaker 2: ordered mine. The book has now come out. I still
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  Speaker 2: haven't received my pre ordered one. That's one of the
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  Speaker 2: disadvantages sometimes we need to do a pre order. You
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  Speaker 2: missed out. But Professor Hudt has been absolutely blitzing podcasts
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  Speaker 2: and media writer around the world and has reached so
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  Speaker 2: many people. He also has a free sub stack called
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  Speaker 2: after Babel. You can subscribe and support the work that
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  Speaker 2: he does. I recommend it. It's absolutely brilliant. So let's
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  Speaker 2: get onto the conversation that he had with Barry Weiss
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  Speaker 2: of the Honestly podcast. Honestly with Barry Weiss, part of
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  Speaker 2: the Free Press. This is what he had to say
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  Speaker 2: when Barry Weiss asked him, Jonathan, where is the anxiety
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  Speaker 2: with this Anxious Generation coming from?
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  Speaker 1: It's all the little small stuff that was unpleasant as
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  Speaker 1: a child, so it's being excluded. It's vital that kids
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  Speaker 1: be excluded. Can you imagine? So, I'm sorry, your daughter
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  Speaker 1: is what howled two? Three?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, she's less than two.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, we're not at the excluding mean girl's face yet. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: but Barry, so supposed we'll get there. That's right, you will.
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  Speaker 1: And so given that she's going to get there, if
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  Speaker 1: I gave you the option, I said, if you sign
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  Speaker 1: this deal, I can guarantee that she will never face
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  Speaker 1: exclusion before her eighteenth birthday. Would you sign it? No, right,
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  Speaker 1: because we know intuitively that they have to experience it
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  Speaker 1: otherwise it's going to be devastating when they're eighteen. And
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  Speaker 1: it's the same thing for let's say losing. It's very
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  Speaker 1: important that children lose a lot in competitive games. Now.
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  Speaker 1: I remember when my kids were young. It was very
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  Speaker 1: painful for them to lose. They sometimes get upset, but
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  Speaker 1: after a while then they just you know, then they
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  Speaker 1: get used to it. And now you can have a
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  Speaker 1: lot more fun because they know, you know, we're going
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  Speaker 1: to play twenty games and I'm going to lose a
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  Speaker 1: bunch of them and win a bunch of them. So
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  Speaker 1: winning and losing being excluded certainly you know, falling down
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  Speaker 1: and getting hurt, and then getting hurt when there's no
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  Speaker 1: adults around. So you know, like I remember crashing on
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  Speaker 1: my basicll and you have to kind of limp home
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  Speaker 1: and maybe the paddle is bent, but you get home
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  Speaker 1: and then you realize, oh, I can do that, I
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  Speaker 1: can get home.
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  Speaker 2: I really love this conversation. The idea that there are
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  Speaker 2: healthy stresses in the environment. Now, we've got pretty good
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  Speaker 2: research that shows that if we experience way too much
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  Speaker 2: stress at a developmentally inappropriate age or just in an
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  Speaker 2: inappropriate way, that stress can lead to negative outcomes. But
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  Speaker 2: that's not what he's talking about here. And what people
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  Speaker 2: like me and obviously Jonathan Hydt and many others who
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  Speaker 2: do this kind of work have seen is that increasingly,
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  Speaker 2: as we invest more and more into our children, that
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  Speaker 2: parental investment is very much oriented towards protecting our children
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  Speaker 2: from healthy stresses, the kind of stresses that build resilience
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  Speaker 2: and reduce anxiety. In fact, not in that part of
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  Speaker 2: the interview, but certainly in research that I've read, there
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  Speaker 2: is good data that shows that when our children are
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  Speaker 2: exposed to appropriate, developmentally appropriate and healthy stresses, they do better.
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  Speaker 2: They're less likely to experience anxiety disorders, they're more likely
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  Speaker 2: to thrive. There's a metaphor and analogy that I use
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  Speaker 2: when I'm giving my presentations on resilience in schools and
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  Speaker 2: in organizations, and I use the idea of a balance beam.
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  Speaker 2: So when your children are walking through life, metaphorically, they're
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  Speaker 2: walking across a balance beam. Some parents, when they see
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  Speaker 2: their child start to overbalance, maybe lean a little too
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  Speaker 2: far out the left or right, they kind of stand
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  Speaker 2: back and say, well, you're going to figure this out, kiddo,
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  Speaker 2: And sometimes their kids fall and they hit the ground.
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  Speaker 2: The difficulty with that, I'm going to call it the
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  Speaker 2: tough en up princess approach to building resilience is research
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  Speaker 2: shows it doesn't work. Sometimes that fall is too far
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  Speaker 2: developmentally inappropriate, too hard, and it's so important that his
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  Speaker 2: parents were discerning enough to recognize that it's not going
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  Speaker 2: to be in our kid's best interest to keep on
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  Speaker 2: falling off the balance beam of life. Don't see that
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  Speaker 2: happening as much as it used to. What I see
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  Speaker 2: happening a lot more now is that parents will get
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  Speaker 2: up onto the balance beam with their kids and carry
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  Speaker 2: them across. But you cannot carry your kids through life,
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  Speaker 2: and that's why it's just so important. In fact, that
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  Speaker 2: creates something called the cycle of incompetence, which we're going
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  Speaker 2: to talk about in just a sec What I encourage
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  Speaker 2: parents to do is to walk alongside their children as
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  Speaker 2: they're up on that beam, and as their child starts
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  Speaker 2: to overbalance, it's completely appropriate to put your hand up
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  Speaker 2: on their leg, on their thigh and say, hey, just
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  Speaker 2: lean on me for a second while you regain your bearings,
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  Speaker 2: regain your balance, Let's work out how you can take
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  Speaker 2: the next step on your own. Then you take your
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  Speaker 2: hand away, and your kids take those steps on their
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  Speaker 2: own with a supportive, loving, compassionate adult beside them. All
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  Speaker 2: the very best work on resilience shows that the kids
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  Speaker 2: who are most resilient are the ones who have at
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  Speaker 2: least one significant supportive adult in their life. But those
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  Speaker 2: adults don't do the work for them. They also just
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  Speaker 2: make sure that they don't fall and crash, or if
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  Speaker 2: they do that it's not too hard that there's something
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  Speaker 2: supporting that landing. I think it's so important if we
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  Speaker 2: want to move away from raising an anxious generation, that
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  Speaker 2: we get the balance right. If you're pardon the pun. Now.
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  Speaker 2: The second highlight from the conversation that Jonathan Hight had
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  Speaker 2: with the Honestly Podcast and Barry Weiss related to a
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  Speaker 2: concept called anti fragility. There's a book called anti Fragile.
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  Speaker 2: It's on my bookshelf. It's by Nasim Nicholas taylorb. And
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  Speaker 2: the idea of anti fragile goes like this. We often
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  Speaker 2: think that the opposite of resilience is fragility, but that's
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  Speaker 2: not entirely true. See resilience. If we look at it
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  Speaker 2: from an engineering perspective, you build a resilient house, a
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  Speaker 2: resilient bridge, a resilience stadium or road. And what that
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  Speaker 2: means is that when the traffic or the weight, or
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  Speaker 2: the rain or the floods or whatever it is, when
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  Speaker 2: those things hit it, it stays firm. Fragile means that
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  Speaker 2: when adversity strikes you break down. Now, staying firm is
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  Speaker 2: not the opposite of breaking down. Getting stronger is the
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  Speaker 2: opposite of breaking down. But we don't have a word
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  Speaker 2: for it in English, and so tailored Nasim Tailor calls
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  Speaker 2: it anti fragility, being anti fragile. And that's what this
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  Speaker 2: second clip is all about. How we help our kids
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  Speaker 2: to be anti fragile.
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  Speaker 1: So because we came to see our children as vulnerable
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  Speaker 1: or fragile rather than anti fragile. If you see you
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  Speaker 1: because it's anti fragile, say go out and play. And
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  Speaker 1: if they say you know, it's called that you said,
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  Speaker 1: you know, tough it out, or you know, if they
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  Speaker 1: fall and say you know, you're okay, go back. So
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  Speaker 1: that's what you would do. If you think kids are
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  Speaker 1: anti fragile, but I think kids are fragile, you're going
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  Speaker 1: to never leave them in supervise, which means they never
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  Speaker 1: learn to work things out for themselves, and you're going
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  Speaker 1: to swoop in at this first sign of trouble. And
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  Speaker 1: so what happens if you assume that they're incompetent and fragile,
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  Speaker 1: then they don't have the experience that would make them
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  Speaker 1: competent and non fragile. So you're actually making them incompetent
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  Speaker 1: and fragile. And then you look at these incompetent, fragile,
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  Speaker 1: you know, fifth graders, you say, well, how can we
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  Speaker 1: trust you? You know, I can't let you, I can't let
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  Speaker 1: you walk to the store. What if you get lost?
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  Speaker 1: It's a sacred it's a vicious sacrale, and so that's
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  Speaker 1: what we have to break.
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  Speaker 2: So I really love a handful of elements in here.
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  Speaker 2: One of the central things that I'd highlight is what
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  Speaker 2: we've got is one of the world's leading thinkers saying
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  Speaker 2: a little bit of tough love is okay for your kids. Now,
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  Speaker 2: this isn't any kind of neglectful or abusive or aggressive
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  Speaker 2: tough love. Rather, it's acknowledging that the everyday bumps and
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  Speaker 2: scrapes of life can be gotten over by our children,
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  Speaker 2: and we shouldn't make too big a deal of them.
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  Speaker 2: The more we make their emotions king, and the more
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  Speaker 2: we make their discomfort a problem that needs to be fixed,
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  Speaker 2: the less anti fragile, the more fragile they become, and
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  Speaker 2: the more we perpetuate that cycle of incompetence. We need
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  Speaker 2: to get comfortable with our kids being uncomfortable in an understanding, appropriate, caring,
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  Speaker 2: compassionate way. But we still need to say, and I
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  Speaker 2: do this all the time with my kids. When they've
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  Speaker 2: hurt themselves, I'll say, oh, kiddo, that looks like it
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  Speaker 2: really hurt. Come and give me hu. I'll give them
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  Speaker 2: a hug, and then I'll say, all right, off you go.
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  Speaker 2: It looks like you'll be okay now, so they can
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  Speaker 2: still be that kindness and that warmth, that nurture, that relatedness,
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  Speaker 2: the mattering and belonging. That's all part of it. But
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  Speaker 2: ultimately we're saying, I have faith in your ability to
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  Speaker 2: figure this out and to move ahead with it. As
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  Speaker 2: we encourage our kids to become more competent, they get
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  Speaker 2: out of that cycle. But we need to understand why
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  Speaker 2: we are uncomfortable. What is it in us that's causing
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  Speaker 2: us to be so uncomfortable with our children experiencing hardship, difficulty, challenge.
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  Speaker 2: As we get comfortable with them having that difficulty and
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  Speaker 2: having that growth, they're much more likely to figure this out.
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  Speaker 2: In just a secon we're going to talk about how
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  Speaker 2: the adolescent brain changes during the teen years and the
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  Speaker 2: impact of social media on those changes. It's The Happy
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: Families Podcasts. It's The Happy Family's podcast with me doctor
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: Justin Colson, and some snippets from an interview with Professor
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: Jonathan Hype from New York University, the author of The
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: Anxious Generation, talking with the Free Presses Barry Weiss on
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  Speaker 2: the Honestly with Barry Weiss podcast everybody knows that the
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  Speaker 2: adolescent brain changes so much during those teen years, but
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  Speaker 2: what's the impact of social media on those changes. Jonathan
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  Speaker 2: Hate explains this to Barry Weiss in the Honestly podcast.
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  Speaker 1: The brain grows very quickly in the first few years
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  Speaker 1: of life, and then it actually slows down a lot,
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  Speaker 1: and from then on it's not so much growth. It's
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  Speaker 1: more it's rewiring. It's neurons connecting, its synapses forming, it's
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  Speaker 1: neurons feeding away, you know, if they're not used. So
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  Speaker 1: there's a lot of rewiring going on, and that speeds
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  Speaker 1: up during puberty. There was especially early puberty around each
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  Speaker 1: eleven or twelve to around fifteen sixteen, and there's a
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  Speaker 1: huge amount of change as the brain basically, you know,
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  Speaker 1: sort of like a caterpillar trending into a butterfly. You
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  Speaker 1: have the young form of a human brain kind of rewires.
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  Speaker 1: Now that it's learned culture, it sort of rewires to
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  Speaker 1: lock down into the format of an American or a
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  Speaker 1: suite or whatever. And this is exactly the period, unfortunately,
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  Speaker 1: when we put our kids on social media and let
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  Speaker 1: random weirdness on the Internet control how their brain is rewiring.
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  Speaker 1: One of the main things that is happening is in
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  Speaker 1: the prefrontal cortex. That's the last part to really go
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  Speaker 1: through the change, which is the seat of executive function.
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  Speaker 1: That is the ability to formulate a goal, figure out
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  Speaker 1: the means to achieve the goal, and then execute the
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  Speaker 1: plan to achieve the goal. So if you want to
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: do your homework, you know, I know, I want to
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  Speaker 1: watch this TV show at ten o'clock tonight, so I
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  Speaker 1: an hour. I better do my homework. I have one hour.
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  Speaker 1: You know, kids struggle to do that, especially if you
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  Speaker 1: don't love doing your homework. It's going to take concentration
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  Speaker 1: and willpower to stay on task. But what happens you
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  Speaker 1: have an infinite number of really fun digital experiences just
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  Speaker 1: waiting for you if you touch the right buttons. But
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  Speaker 1: it's much more than that, because you don't have to
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  Speaker 1: touch the right buttons. The pop ups are going to
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  Speaker 1: be popping up saying come play, come out, come, look
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  Speaker 1: look what someone just said about you. So they're getting
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  Speaker 1: I think on average now, two hundred and fifty notifications
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  Speaker 1: a day is what American teens now get. That's two
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  Speaker 1: hundred fifty times a day that their attention is interrupted.
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  Speaker 1: Most of them don't put it on a focus mode.
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  Speaker 1: They just take it as normal that any company that
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  Speaker 1: wants to take some of their attention can just take it.
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  Speaker 1: So it was always hard for teens to focus and
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  Speaker 1: do their homework or do anything. But doing that gives
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  Speaker 1: you practice in doing it, and if you do it repeatedly,
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  Speaker 1: you're actually helping your brain to develop good executive function.
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  Speaker 1: So what would happen if you have a teen who
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  Speaker 1: never gets to practice that, They literally never get an
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  Speaker 1: hour without an interruption. I think it could lead to
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  Speaker 1: permanent decrements in their ability to function as an adult.
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  Speaker 2: I think that it's important to highlight that we don't
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  Speaker 2: know yet. It's still too early, but it's a reasonable
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  Speaker 2: supposition that Jonathan Hyde identifies here two hundred and fifty
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  Speaker 2: notifications a day. I've watched my kids and how much
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  Speaker 2: their phones doing, and my kids are pretty light on
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  Speaker 2: compared to what I see in other places. This point
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  Speaker 2: about pacticing, ignoring, helping kids to recognize that they don't
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  Speaker 2: have to respond to every message the second it comes through.
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  Speaker 2: That they can leave things on read or even on
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  Speaker 2: unread for more than five or ten minutes, In fact,
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  Speaker 2: for an hour or two letting them sit with that,
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  Speaker 2: letting them learn how to do that is such a
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  Speaker 2: vital skill and it will be good for their wellbeing.
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  Speaker 2: So the last thing that I'm going to share with
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  Speaker 2: you is we wrap up this really important conversation from
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: Jonathan Highte and what's going on in his book The
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: Anxious Generation, Why our kids are struggling so much. We're
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: going to talk about this idea of social media addiction.
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  Speaker 2: When I wrote my book Ten Things Every Parent Needs
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: to Know, I made it really clear that addiction is
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: a bit of a funny word in psychological terms, and
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  Speaker 2: most of the time researchers try to avoid it unless
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: they're genuinely talking about addiction. The more appropriate term, which
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: I hate will mentioned just to se is problematic internet use.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: And I wrote an entire chapter about this idea and
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  Speaker 2: even included, with the permission of the author of the scale,
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: a way of measuring whether or not your child is
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: it experiencing problematic Internet use. But he's Jonathan had from
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: his conversation with Barry Weiss and the Honestly podcast talking
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: about social media addiction and whether it's the thing.
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  Speaker 1: The better term to use is what they call problematic use.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: So you know, if you're spending four hours a day
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  Speaker 1: on Instagram, but you're still seeing your friends, you're still
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  Speaker 1: getting good grades in class, you know it's a time suck,
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: but you can't say that it's interfering with basically love
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  Speaker 1: and work, of the two areas that psychologists look at,
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  Speaker 1: love and work basically relationships and either you know, work
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: or school work. So if you're doing fine on those, well, okay,
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  Speaker 1: you know that's maybe it's your choice. But wherever we look,
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  Speaker 1: the numbers come up between five and fifteen percent as
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  Speaker 1: having problematic use. So video games are tremendous fun. You know,
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  Speaker 1: boys really defend them and they don't want them taken away,
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  Speaker 1: but it turns out about five to fifteen percent have
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  Speaker 1: problematic use where they can't stop. They're surly with their parents.
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  Speaker 1: If they're deprived for a day or two, they get
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  Speaker 1: really surly and maybe even aggressive. It's interfering with their
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  Speaker 1: school work, with their ability to function with friends. So
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  Speaker 1: people say, oh, you know, my kids are fine or
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  Speaker 1: you know whats kids are doing? Okay, sure most are,
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  Speaker 1: but can you think of any consumer product in the
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  Speaker 1: world where if there was a one to ten chance
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  Speaker 1: that your kid uses it, they're going to get hooked
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  Speaker 1: and have problematic behavior to the point where it's going
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  Speaker 1: to interfere with other life domeins. And if they do
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  Speaker 1: it for two or three hours a day over many years,
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  Speaker 1: it could change the brain development. Is there any other
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  Speaker 1: product that we would ever let our kids use? So
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  Speaker 1: that's the way I think about it.
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  Speaker 2: It's such a great communicator that final point brings at home.
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  Speaker 2: That's one thing to say there's five or ten percent
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  Speaker 2: of kids who have this challenge, But when you talk
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  Speaker 2: about creating a product and allowing them to use it
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  Speaker 2: knowing that, it really shifts the conversation. I think this
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: book is going to be one of the most important
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: books to be published this year. If you haven't ordered already,
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: it's called The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Hate. I would
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: encourage you to check it out. I can't wait to
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: tell you about my review of it once mine finally
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: arrives and I get to talk about it. But because
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: it's been so topical, I really wanted to bring you
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: those snippets and create the conversation for you in your
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: home with your kids around such a challenging idea. The
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: Happy Family's podcast is back Tomorrow. We've started a new segment.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: Once a month, we ask the question is it just me? Tomorrow?
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: Is it just me? Or am I the only one
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: not interested in intimacy with my partner? We've got your reactions,
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: your comments, and a few tips and ideas from Kylie
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: and I as we answer the question is it just me?
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Rawland from
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. For more
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: information about making your family happier, please visit us at
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: happy families dot com dot au.