Latest / DiveIn: Diving into Special Education's Most Complex and Pressing Debates / What’s Really Happening at the Department of Education? How Policy Shifts Threaten IDEA

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What’s Really Happening at the Department of Education? How Policy Shifts Threaten IDEA · DiveIn: Diving into Special Education's Most Complex and Pressing Debates

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From the Division of Research of the Council for Exceptional Children, this is
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DIVE in. I am your host, Federico Weitholar,
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professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago.
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Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome to our ninth episode of the
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second, second season of Dive In.
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This year we've been trying to give you special coverage of
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the implications of the Trump administration orders for students with disabilities.
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So far in December, we have discussed with David Bateman and
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Mitch Yell, trying to foresee what we could expect from
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the new presidency in regards to special education.
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We have also discussed with Kevin Wellner what expansions of
0:51
voucher programs mean for students with disabilities. And we
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discussed with David Matthews the Texas and Becerras case,
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a case that has the potential to threaten the existence of
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section 504 of the Rehabilitation act of 1973.
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Today we continue this series and give you an update
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on what is going on right now. And I mean right now,
1:16
mid April 2025 in the Department of Education
1:21
and the implications for IDEA and students with disabilities
1:24
in general. There have been many layoffs in
1:28
the Department of Education and there have been many talks about
1:32
moving IDEA to the Department of Health and Human Services,
1:36
also known as the hhs.
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So to update you and discuss these current issues,
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we bring two people that work at two different trenches
1:47
and that can provide hot right information, right off the
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oven information of what is going on right now
1:54
in the Department of Education. There are so much noise about
1:59
what is going on and the implications for students with disabilities.
2:02
And we decided to bring you two experts on the topic.
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One of them is Kuna Tavalin. She's the senior policy
2:11
and advocacy advisor for the Council for Exceptional Children.
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Kuna lives in D.C. and is in constant conversation with
2:18
people in Congress and the Department of Education.
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We also have Karim Thompson. He's currently a district
2:25
administrator with the school district of Palm beach county in
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Florida. And importantly, he's the immediate past president
2:33
of the Council for Exceptional Children. And he is involved
2:37
through both of his roles in many advocacy efforts
2:40
and work with parents, communities and schools
2:44
in Florida to advocate for students with disabilities.
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So are you ready to learn what is happening in the Department of Education?
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Well, let's dive in.
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Welcome. Kun and Karim, thank you so much for being here with us
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in our show. Thank you. We're really excited to be here
3:03
with you today. Yes. Thank you for having us.
3:07
Yeah. I know you've been extremely busy
3:10
since probably this new administration started. I'm probably saying extremely busy.
3:14
It's an understatement completely. We had a
3:18
show in December with Mitch Yale and
3:21
David Bateman talking about what would the Trump administration
3:26
look like. This was before he assumed the presidency.
3:30
And one of the discussions we had at that point was
3:34
the potential dismantling of the Department of Education and
3:38
consequences that will be for students with disabilities.
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And a lot of things have happened since December to now. I think we underestimated
3:47
what could have happened. And one of the
3:51
big news in the last weeks is this executive order
3:55
to begin to close the Department of Education. We know that that's
3:59
completely not possible because you need Senate approval.
4:04
But there's many actions that have been taken that
4:07
it take us into a slow path
4:11
to that. So my first question with that
4:15
is if you can provide us on
4:19
the status of the Departments of Education closure
4:23
and for example, on the passing of IDA responsibilities
4:27
to the Department of Health. Yeah, thank you.
4:31
I'm going to jump in and start, and then, Karim, please fill in the
4:35
gaps. But the very basic
4:39
status right now is that IDEA programs are still at
4:42
the Department of Education. But the progress
4:46
report in terms of dismantling the department itself
4:49
is that the workforce has been reduced by half.
4:54
Some of that is through early retirements or
4:57
the acceptance of severance offers that
5:01
came at the very beginning of the administration. Some is through
5:05
the termination of provisional employees who didn't have those union
5:08
protections most federal workers do
5:12
enjoy. And then the big bulk of
5:16
terminations, which happened about three weeks ago,
5:20
were through what's called a reduction in force or a rif,
5:23
for folks are starting to hear that term. And that is a leap
5:27
legal mechanism for reducing agency workforces.
5:31
And it has happened historically on a number of occasions.
5:34
I think President Reagan's massive
5:38
reduction in the federal workforce is the most infamous.
5:42
But it also happened under the Clinton administration, and there
5:46
are legal protections that allow agencies to do that.
5:49
And so that was the third big wave.
5:53
I've talked to folks at the Department of Education as recently as
5:58
Friday, and folks are expecting maybe another round
6:01
of those reduction in force terminations to come as soon as this
6:05
week. The additional kind of
6:08
dismantling of the workforce. Part of the Department of
6:12
Education is that the folks who do remain there are
6:16
really on shaky ground. They are completely
6:20
stretched thin. We're not expecting the
6:24
timely administration of our IDEA programs.
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I think we just know that when folks are already
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overwhelmed with their workloads and then half of them disappear,
6:35
the ability to do the work is really diminished.
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And some of the kind of key areas
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where the workforce has been reduced are
6:47
in legal and policy departments. So in
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osers, the Office of Special Education and Rehabilitative services.
6:55
They've gotten rid of the policy and
6:59
council shops entirely. So there aren't lawyers working
7:03
on IDEA oversight through that shop anymore.
7:07
They've also done a significant reduction in force at
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the Office for Civil Rights, which does the civil rights enforcements,
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not just under idea, but under all laws.
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But most of, not the overwhelming majority,
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but I think more than half of those cases are disability related.
7:25
So, you know, another blow to our field.
7:29
Without formally dismantling the department or removing hhs.
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Sorry, this is a really long winded answer because there are a lot of different
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components I'm going to keep going through, ticking through each of
7:42
them. The moving of IDEA programs
7:46
to HHS is, does not appear to be legal
7:50
without an act of Congress.
7:54
But the executive order, which does say
7:57
to the extent legal, close it down. Right. And we know that that
8:01
means you can't actually close it down. That and
8:05
then the messaging from the administration all the way up to
8:08
the President himself that says we're moving IDEA
8:12
to HHS causes a lot of confusion.
8:16
So I've had reach out and say, now that we're at hhs,
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what do we do? Right. And I think that that's by design.
8:25
Getting folks to accept that the department is closed
8:29
and that programs are now in other spaces or are
8:32
no longer, you know, being funded, I think
8:36
is part of the strategy of getting to that administration's
8:40
end goal of actually shutting the department down.
8:43
On the other hand, we've seen members
8:49
of Congress writing some really strong letters
8:52
demanding answers about how the reduction in force will
8:56
impact IDEA implementation, demanding,
9:01
you know, to preserve or restore
9:04
the functions of the department and so on and so forth.
9:08
But this has turned into a really political game.
9:12
So it's my expectation that those letters, which come from Democrats, will go
9:16
unanswered. We'll see. Right. I mean,
9:19
it's an expectation, but it's hard to,
9:22
to, it's hard to make predictions in
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an environment that is by design unpredictable. So we'll see.
9:32
So is any of the, you know, I have two, two follow up questions.
9:34
But Karin, do you want it to, to build up
9:38
on that? No. I mean, I think that Kuna has done a great job.
9:42
And just in light of the Council for Exceptional Children,
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we have individuals like Kuna or Kuna regardless to
9:48
be able to inform us and keep us educated. And I think others should do
9:52
the same because the messaging, the confusion that comes from the messaging is
9:56
what we're going to have to deal with moving forward. So the uncertainty of what
10:00
will happen or what is Happening is certainly an issue,
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I think, for right now. So she's done a great job with answering that.
10:07
And as we move forward, we're sure we're going to reconnect to that uncertainty.
10:11
Yeah. I mean, one of the things that is not clear to me, Kuna,
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and see if you can help us to clarify this. Moving IDA
10:19
to NHS is
10:23
illegal. Right. You need to move concurrent. But they're
10:26
doing it anyway, is IDA. No,
10:30
no, that's part. Right. That's the game. They're not
10:33
doing it anyway, but they've said they're going to.
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And so people assume it's going to happen, but they don't
10:40
have the legal authority to do it. So when they say
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we're doing it, there's, they're really signaling to
10:47
Congress to, to take that action.
10:51
And, and there are key members of Congress that who
10:55
have really supported Department of Education programs
10:59
for a long time, decades, who are willing to entertain that request.
11:03
Chairman Tom Cole, who's a Republican from Oklahoma,
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who is in charge of the House Appropriations
11:11
Committee and for a long time was either the
11:15
chair or the ranking member of the subcommittee that funds education.
11:18
He's one of the few members of Congress that has a Ph.D.
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he's spoken really eloquently in the past about the value of,
11:26
of the Department of Education programs,
11:31
really from birth through higher ed.
11:34
And he stated that if the president proposes in his budget
11:38
to eliminate the department, that's something he's willing to entertain.
11:41
So that's a, it adds a
11:46
kind of a scary layer in
11:49
this push and pull where we know that
11:53
just a simple bill to eliminate the Department of Education probably wouldn't be
11:56
enacted. But if you, if you put it in a bill where
12:00
there's, you know, defense funding and you do a brinksmanship
12:04
where you shut the government down, if you don't pass the bill,
12:07
then things get really complicated. Right.
12:10
It's, I've been talking to policy
12:14
experts, lobbyists, et cetera,
12:18
for weeks, and I think there's a general consensus that we don't
12:22
have a vision of what that kind of brinksman would look
12:25
like, have expectations for what
12:29
the administration and Republican leaders in Congress and
12:32
Republicans have control of Congress, what they would may try
12:36
to do, but we don't have a clear sense of
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what the rebuttal would be from Democrats. And unfortunately,
12:44
rather than focusing on what would be best for
12:47
serving, you know, infants, toddlers, children and youth with disabilities,
12:52
we are trying to figure out a political game.
12:55
Right. We're not actually talking about the children.
12:59
Yeah. Yes. Nobody's talking about how to best serve students.
13:03
Right. And then I just have one more point on that. Moving,
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moving IDEA programs. There was
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an expectation that those programs would move
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to the Administration for Community Living, which is an agency
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within HHS that serves
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adults with disabilities and,
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and the aging population,
13:29
older Americans. And that
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office was dismantled last week. Oh, wow.
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Now it's. There's not even kind of a logical, clear place
13:40
within hhs, because those riffs I talked about at the
13:43
Department of Education, they came for HHS as well.
13:48
So, yeah, it's quite intense. So what's
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the climate? I mean, you are there in Washington. I mean, Karima, I don't know
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if you. How are you feeling in Florida? What's the climate there? It's like,
13:58
do you think that there could be enough push to pass this.
14:03
Climate in D.C. i just told you, Federico, it is
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20 degrees colder than normal and it's raining.
14:10
It's not good, it's not comfortable. Right.
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And I think at this point, you know,
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we're going to fight like heck to make sure that our kids and our professionals
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are protected and that we don't backslide.
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But I don't know what's going to happen.
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And there are so many contributing factors that are
14:33
so far beyond IDEA and the Department
14:37
of Education that may end up swinging this in
14:40
one direction or another. I mean, we woke up this morning to
14:44
are stock markets, global markets crashing?
14:48
Right. Whether the president
14:52
maintains momentum for his agenda is in question,
14:56
broadly so. And that is way above my pay grade. I try to follow
15:00
that stuff a little bit, but I don't think we.
15:03
Won'T ask you about economics and financial matters. No worries.
15:06
But it all just say everything is. When you, when everything is political,
15:10
anything could change. Right. So really hard to tell.
15:14
Although. Path of the unknown. Yeah, path of the unknown. You know,
15:18
the uncertainty. This transition is. I mean, the hardest part
15:21
about this transition is it's the unknown altogether. But the lack of
15:24
the clarity and the stability that comes along with this unknown is
15:28
just, you know, as Kuna just described, the weather,
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it's just as worse, you know, emotionally on folks.
15:35
And so whether you're in D.C. or here in Florida, where there's
15:39
75 to 80 degrees, lovely.
15:42
It's still emotionally,
15:46
you know,
15:50
it's hurtful, hurtful just to think about it, just to watch the news and
15:53
to hear. And I think the bright, bright part of our days
15:57
is coming to a school center like I am, even though I'm a
16:00
part of a department, but to see the faces of Children who still in spite
16:03
of that smile because people here in place to be
16:07
those great practitioners that we need. So yeah,
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I mean, that takes us to another question, important question, Karim. I mean,
16:14
what are the implications of this? How you see, I mean, let's think, okay,
16:17
is the funding moved to the Department of Health or
16:22
just the implications have already happened that we
16:25
have reduced the amount of workforce in the Department of
16:29
Education. How do you see that will impact the ground?
16:32
Right. How is it going to impact families, teachers, principals,
16:35
district officials? I think it's important and certainly Kona
16:39
will give a little bit more breadth to this.
16:42
It's the importance for us to understand that regardless of where
16:46
things go, we have to ensure that we're informing folks the right way
16:50
and so that we do away with people who are giving those missed
16:53
messages of confusion that we talked about earlier. But I think the hardest thing
16:57
is that educators and families are deeply concerned that
17:00
not knowing where services will be coming from or whether funding will be available in
17:04
the future. You know what happens. I think it also provides not
17:08
I think, but this is what happen is that there's more disparities,
17:11
inequities in services because we don't know. And if
17:14
that does happen in the way that it's described, I can only imagine
17:18
those Title 1 schools. I can only imagine those schools who
17:23
won't have funding because of the inequities, where things
17:26
will go. So we have now a creation of confusion
17:30
and mistrust and. But I think it's
17:34
also an opportunity, as Kaluna talked about earlier, to capitalize on grassroots
17:38
efforts and ensuring that we're informing folks and that we're rallying folks
17:42
up for this movement of unknown.
17:45
How do you see teachers there in your district, Kareem?
17:49
Are they as affected the world? Are they stressed? Are they
17:53
concerned about everything that's going on? I think it varies.
17:56
Those individuals who are in the work that we do with individuals
18:00
with disabilities a little bit more stressed because they get
18:03
it and they understand that the change is going to affect them.
18:06
Mostly, I believe others are just kind of just going around with
18:10
the wave. The problem I see moving forward is an
18:13
even larger percentage of teacher shortages. And I think that's a huge concern.
18:18
Because of the uncertainty as we go into the end of the
18:21
year, we may not have folks who might sign the contract for next year or
18:25
folks who are looking to other venues for work.
18:28
Unfortunately, that seems that will add up. To the already
18:33
concerning teacher shortages, particularly in groups
18:36
with large group of minority students, low income schools.
18:41
One thing Very interesting that Michiel
18:44
and Dave Bateman saying:4 months ago, before everything happened is
18:48
that actually if funding. It's jeopardized
18:52
the ones the dis. Sorry. The states that are going to
18:55
be mostly compromised are red states because the states who receive
18:59
some of the most amount of money from the
19:03
federal government for Title one and for IDA are Alaska,
19:07
Mississippi, Alabama. Like states that have
19:11
more percentage of low income students are the ones that are going to be most
19:15
affected. Yeah, there's some cognitive dissidents there that this is a political
19:18
move, but it could hurt those red rural states disproportionately.
19:24
And I don't know how
19:29
kind of far down the logic
19:33
path those proposals have gone. Right.
19:37
I'm from a rural community and
19:41
the school is really the heartbeat of the community.
19:45
It's, you know, it's a place where
19:48
folks were educated for generations. Right.
19:51
Our teachers that are in their 60s have taught
19:55
two generations of kids.
19:58
People really identify with those schools, but they're also
20:01
big employers. That's where we go for our town meetings,
20:05
to vote for community events
20:08
in the evenings. Right. Our spaghetti fundraisers
20:12
and. Right. It's not, it's a central part
20:16
of a community, not a side, not a side thought, not an afterthought.
20:20
And I think that's true of schools everywhere. But in
20:25
those rural communities it is, you know,
20:29
in some places 20% of budgets come from the federal
20:32
government, our average is about 10,
20:36
but in rural areas it's much higher. And I
20:39
don't, you know, I'm not a school finance
20:44
person, but I will say personnel
20:47
does appear to be the easiest thing to cut when you
20:51
need to save money. You can't turn the lights off.
20:54
Right. But you can shave a few people here
20:57
and there and save money. And that has a
21:01
massive ripple effect across a school. And so I
21:05
think thinking it out all the way from cutting
21:10
funding to what the impact will be in
21:14
specific schools, I think it's not a conversation I've heard.
21:18
What I hear is these really kind of trite
21:21
and undetailed statements
21:25
like, well, federal government only provides 10% of
21:29
a school district's budget. Well, I think, okay, but school districts are
21:32
basically, if we think of our own personal budgets, they're basically
21:36
living hand to mouth. You're spending your money, money each year, so you lose
21:40
10%. It's, it means you cut things right.
21:44
Right off the bat. So we're not saying, oh, tighten your belt. You can't tight,
21:48
you know, you can't tighten your belt in the same way when you're looking at
21:51
a school, a school budget. So it's an interesting part of
21:55
the conversation that I'm not hearing enough. I think I
21:58
am certainly raising that issue when I go to Capitol Hill to
22:02
talk to folks about the importance of school
22:06
funding, and especially in the context of school vouchers,
22:10
which I don't mean to pull us down a different rabbit hole.
22:13
But if you're providing vouchers and pulling
22:16
students and then your student count drops, right Then you're
22:20
losing funding at the school level as well. And so you are starting
22:23
to diminish the capacity of your local public schools.
22:27
No, I mean, we had actually a great show in January,
22:30
so let me point the audience to that too, with Kevin. Well, and about vouchers
22:33
on students with disabilities. And we're pointing to some of those issues.
22:37
And this already occur in a context, I think, Kun and Karim,
22:40
that in which our
22:43
funding formulas to fund schools are probably the most
22:46
inequitable funding formulas in the world because they rely heavily
22:50
on property taxes. So if you cut that
22:53
10% or you cut some of the title 1 4, those districts
22:57
that have smaller property tax revenue, which are low income
23:01
districts, will be way more affected than those that are wealthier
23:05
districts. Absolutely. So, so let's play with the
23:08
rationale. Let's say, well, let's move idea to
23:12
the Department of Health. Okay, so what
23:16
do you think we'll meet? I mean, people say,
23:19
what does it matter where we put it? We'll put in the Department of Ed
23:22
or in the Department of Health. I mean, who cares? The funding
23:25
is there, the funding is going to go. Why is such a big issue?
23:29
What do you think are the implications of making that move? I'll let Kuner
23:33
kind of pin on that, but I think the biggest piece is going to be
23:35
the oversight. When you're going from the consistency that was
23:39
there in place to something different and not ensuring that
23:42
you have individuals who were in place. And I kind of heard the previous podcast
23:46
where you had individuals who were already engulfed in this work,
23:49
who had a heart for it, who understood it, and so the oversight was more
23:53
consistent. And I think that probably was going to be lost,
23:56
at least in my thoughts moving forward.
23:58
Kuna. I mean, there are a lot of layers to this,
24:02
but we say kids
24:06
with disabilities are general education students first.
24:09
Right. And to me, the biggest danger
24:14
of moving IDEA programs to hhs,
24:18
sure, you might be able to staff, restaff up, re,
24:22
implement grant programs effectively, et cetera, but you're segregating
24:26
15% of the population a Resegregation.
24:29
I think it's fundamentally a misunderstanding
24:33
of special education. I'll just.
24:37
I was reading through a news article this morning, and there.
24:42
There's a quote from a senator, Senator Mike Rounds,
24:45
who's a Republican from South Dakota who has introduced legislation
24:49
in the past to close the Department of Education.
24:52
And on idea, he says the.
24:58
There's special. This is a quote. There's special education idea,
25:02
assistance to the visually impaired, schools for the deaf, those types
25:06
of things that has been authorized by Congress and needs
25:10
to continue. Nobody's trying to take that stuff away.
25:13
Right. I read that, and I think you don't understand
25:17
what special education is. Right. Like,
25:22
it's such an oversimplification and such a narrow scope
25:26
on two specific disabilities, completely ignoring the
25:30
fact that we are talking about 15% of students in schools.
25:33
Right. And, you know,
25:36
I have the privilege of speaking about the
25:40
functions of the Department of Education with our
25:44
associate executive Director, Lori Vanderblue, quite frequently,
25:48
and she and I were actually on Capitol Hill talking about this issue last
25:52
week. She's the former director of the Office of
25:56
Special Education Programs. And so I posed this question to her as
25:59
well. You know, what's the. What's the actual harm? She says,
26:03
you know, you're not in a Department of Education. You don't have
26:07
the other functions of the department as collaborators.
26:11
You don't have with the, you know, the Office that supports K12
26:15
schools or higher education or workforce
26:18
development. You're isolated. Right. There's a lot of
26:22
collaboration. She points specifically to,
26:26
you know, mental health in schools. Right. As one of
26:29
those areas that really crosses all.
26:33
All components of a school building. Right. And so
26:37
on and so forth. So it's. It's. It's. It's isolation,
26:41
it's resegregation. We're talking about a law that
26:45
was developed 50 years ago to integrate people
26:49
with disabilities into, you know, into education
26:53
from. From infants through transition to employment.
26:57
And the prospect of resegregating definitely
27:01
poses to me a very dangerous slippery slope and
27:04
a backslide on civil rights. Yeah.
27:08
The. You know, one of the things we.
27:13
Moving to the Department of Health,
27:17
as you say, is the oversight. I think that's a. It's an important concern
27:21
of many people I have talked to,
27:25
including. Including both of you. Their vision is to send,
27:29
you know, if they could do their vision, like the Project 2025
27:33
is to, you know, dismantle and say, block grants to states,
27:38
can we assume that states can do their own oversight
27:42
and control themselves, keep themselves accountable for
27:46
providing services and Doing all the things they need to do as declare an
27:49
ada. I certainly would look to KUNA to answer
27:52
this, but when I think about what has happened with,
27:55
or what might happen with this change, you think about like,
27:58
you know, the oversight of data collection and
28:02
ensuring of services that are adequate for individual with disabilities.
28:06
We're talking about what, 15 billion annually to help 7.4
28:10
million students through IDEA. So the
28:14
impact is huge. But I think it's important to make sure that we aim to
28:17
assist and help these individuals in such a way that continues
28:22
to have that consistency of the oversight that we talk about with
28:25
the data collection and ensuring that services are adequate and
28:29
that students are achieving. So the oversight and accountability and data
28:32
collection is going to be key. How states will be prepared to do that is
28:36
and unknown for me. I mean, I'm in Florida, so I can talk a whole
28:39
lot of the changes that we've only experienced within even the last three to four
28:43
years, but as a nation,
28:47
it'll be interesting. Yeah. And I would just say
28:51
no. The answer to the question, in my opinion, is no.
28:55
The IDEA infrastructure is built at the federal
28:59
level and to support states. Again,
29:02
this is a question that I've been talking a lot about with Lori,
29:07
and she did oversight of states. She went into states and districts
29:11
to talk about how to improve services, how to,
29:16
you know, be, you know, how to implement
29:19
the law legally where there were shortfalls.
29:24
And I don't. I don't have a citation for this
29:28
statistic other than Lori, but she said that during
29:31
her tenure, 60% of the state directors for special
29:35
education turned over. Right. That means the folks
29:39
in the top leadership. Leadership position at the state level
29:42
are turning over. So that says to me,
29:46
no, they're not currently in a position where they have the capacity nationwide
29:51
to do the oversight of idea.
29:54
The other thing is, if the dollars
29:57
are federal, why would the oversight not be federal? Right.
30:01
It's a federal law. They're federal dollars. Why would the oversight be
30:05
at the state level? To me, handing oversight
30:09
over from Congress is ceding oversight
30:13
responsibilities. It is essentially
30:17
kind of a soft dismantling of IDEA
30:21
because there is no federal. If there is no federal mechanism
30:24
for oversight, then there's no incentive.
30:28
There's no. There's no accountability. There's no way for states to.
30:33
There's no way for the federal government to, you know,
30:37
assert that states aren't doing the job. If there's no one in those positions,
30:40
I mean, it's just kind
30:44
of defeats the point of having the federal law. Yeah.
30:48
So I Want to talk a little bit about funds under IDEA that
30:51
are dedicated either to research or to train special education teachers.
30:56
Have those been touched? Are those still untouched?
30:59
I particularly have some concerns because some of them have
31:03
a DEI component. In the last years, there's been a lot of effort,
31:07
warranted effort, to diversify the special
31:10
education teacher force, for example, to recruit more
31:14
researchers from underrepresented groups because tradition or
31:17
the profile of special ed research or special ed teacher has been mostly
31:21
white, female, middle class, the bulk of special teachers
31:25
still and in the research force kind of similar.
31:29
So do you think those, those funds
31:32
are in jeopardy? This is a question
31:36
that is still really tbd.
31:41
It's a question we've posed to the Department of Education. And to my knowledge,
31:45
they don't have a clear directive yet.
31:49
So the funds themselves technically were distributed
31:52
again this year from, from Congress. But we
31:56
saw scores and scores of teacher
32:00
preparation grants canceled because of, presumably because
32:03
of ei. There are two lawsuits,
32:07
one brought by attorneys general of,
32:12
of blue states and one brought by associations
32:16
that represent colleges of education.
32:20
The former was victorious,
32:23
but then the administration brought it
32:26
to the Supreme Court, which overturned the ruling and
32:30
supported the administration on Friday in the cancellation of
32:34
those grants. I mean, the headline is really quite shocking.
32:37
It's essentially Trump administration pleads
32:41
to Supreme Court to cancel teacher prep grants.
32:45
Right. That, I mean, that headline in any other universe would,
32:49
would create extreme outrage. Like. I'm sorry,
32:53
what? So the other one
32:56
was victorious. And I don't know what the, you know, whether the litigation is
33:00
done or not, they've been. The administration has been ordered
33:04
to restore those grants, but I don't know what
33:07
that looks like kind of in the, in the mechanics
33:11
of it, whether they can actually be restored to their full
33:14
capacity, et cetera, what kind of damage was already done,
33:18
or whether that will also be overturned by a higher court.
33:21
We also saw the cancellation of $900 million in
33:26
federal research contracts. And again, this doesn't
33:30
make a lot of sense because then subsequently Congress
33:34
authorized or provided through an appropriations process
33:38
funding, presumably for those purposes.
33:42
So what is going to happen moving forward is not clear.
33:47
There were some grant competitions in the special education
33:51
personnel space that were paused
33:55
mid competition last week.
33:58
But we're not sure if that is just an
34:03
effort for the department to evaluate and potentially
34:07
recompete with different priorities, like non DEI related priorities,
34:11
those same grants or whether they're planning to scrap them.
34:14
Those are the competitions, not the current awards.
34:17
Right, but those came from IDEA funds or they
34:21
come from a different part. IDEA Funds Yeah. Oh,
34:24
wow. So some of the IDA funds
34:28
had. Been cut, so I wouldn't say they're cut.
34:32
So the funds are there. There was a competition.
34:35
Folks applied for the funds and then the competition was paused.
34:39
So it's semantics, but it doesn't fully
34:43
close the door. The department could recompete
34:46
those competitions.
34:49
They haven't made a statement either way. One also was
34:53
a technical assistance center for transition services. Right.
34:56
That was paused during the competition process
35:00
last week. But we're hearing a lot of rumors. We're not getting
35:04
transparency of information. Right. So I've
35:07
heard that's it. I've heard they want to cut competitive
35:12
grants by a certain amount. I've also heard they just
35:15
want to reprioritize and the competitions will be coming out
35:19
in the late spring, early summer. But they're all rumors and things
35:23
seem to be changing rapidly all the time.
35:26
So I don't know, I guess is the.
35:30
But it's definitely alarming and a cause for
35:33
concern. Right. And I think that the
35:39
way to. The way to address.
35:43
To resolve this issue in a positive manner would be for
35:46
Congress to explicitly state that the funds they provided for
35:50
IDEA were for these specific purposes.
35:54
And thus far that isn't something they've done, which is really
35:58
because in the past it's
36:02
a given, it's a no brainer now things like
36:06
Congress is ceding some of their spending
36:11
power to the administration. Yeah.
36:15
So related to that, you know, there'd be
36:18
more broader attacks around the whole DEI umbrella
36:21
that gets, you know, there's so many things put up there and exaggerated
36:26
any of those attacks to di. Do you think it's affecting
36:30
the way that people are thinking about IDA or it will have an impact on
36:34
idea? Karim, I'm going to let you go on this one since
36:37
you are in Florida, which is really leading
36:41
the country in terms of. You got a lot of experience.
36:45
I wouldn't say I do. But I do know that there's a huge impact.
36:49
Let me first say that our CEC members have lost
36:52
their own funding and the work that they've done. So that's huge to say.
36:56
And so we've been pushing and certainly have been informed
37:01
by individuals like Kona just to make sure that we're pushing for what's
37:06
actually a large investment in the federal role is to ensure that the pathways into
37:09
the profession have an emphasis on diversity and on quality
37:14
of the work that we do, which is huge and important. So as we talk
37:17
about these fundings being cut, particularly looking
37:20
at teacher shortages. But beyond that, here In Florida, we know we've
37:24
been faced with taking books off the shelves and taking a look
37:28
at curriculum and textbooks and other resources.
37:31
And so others now on a nationwide fight for
37:35
this or lack of, have now been forced to do the same
37:38
thing. So we're taking out things that have words
37:43
such as diversity, equity, and even inclusion, which now
37:46
becomes that big priority for this administration.
37:50
And so, I don't know. I mean, it puts us in a pickle, as that
37:54
word is used in these times is uncertainty. So we're
37:58
here in Florida and we've been doing this for what, three years? I think at
38:01
least it's hit home. So. But I think
38:04
that it still does push us to be informed on the
38:07
grassroots efforts, as I said earlier, but more importantly, ensure that
38:11
we continue to do the work and that serve these young people and support
38:15
professionals. Kareem, thank you for pointing out that
38:19
we do have members that have lost grants.
38:22
We have members that have lost teacher prep and research grants
38:25
all across the spectrum. Not just, not IDEA
38:29
Part D grants, but teacher prep grants that,
38:32
you know, were. Were providing
38:37
master's levels degrees to paraprofessionals,
38:42
you know, who want to become special education teachers in their own community.
38:46
Kinds of things that does sometimes amplify diversity
38:50
of the workforce because of the folks who are being served.
38:53
Right. But is additionally just
38:58
kind of a good project for the
39:02
state of our education system. Right. Those things just
39:05
being nitpicked and terminated because they are serving communities of color.
39:10
We've seen it. Right. And it certainly there's
39:17
the field more broadly, and then there's our membership. Our membership is
39:20
really concerned, really scratching their
39:23
heads about what their alternative options are in
39:27
order to sustain and grow the work in an environment that
39:31
is so critically important to address
39:34
shortages. Right. We have so many headwinds
39:39
and to have this federal role which
39:42
has been relatively stable, although frankly pretty small
39:47
in scale, to have this now be uncertain as well is
39:50
just. It's like another rug being pulled out.
39:54
And again, it boils back down to our kids being well
39:58
served in, you know, in programs
40:02
and districts, et cetera. When we look at states that are
40:05
in violation of idea, it typically boils down
40:08
to not having the workforce to provide the services.
40:12
Right. Why are we. Why are we not bolstering that workforce
40:15
at the federal level? There's certainly a national need. Absolutely.
40:19
In this context, you know, this very complicated context, I mean, how is.
40:23
You mentioned this a little bit, but if you can expand on how is cc,
40:27
the council, Exceptional Children responding to these changes?
40:31
What are the Efforts that are ongoing efforts
40:35
to try to fight or
40:39
try to remediate what's going on.
40:43
First off, I think it's important to know that we are a
40:46
very, we're forced to be reckoned with.
40:50
And I'll say that because in our 102 years of history,
40:53
we have always been at the forefront in fighting for what is
40:57
right. And so since our inception, we continue to advocate and I think
41:01
we're going to continue, I think, I know that we will continue to be committed
41:03
to that fight, but firmly and vocally against moving
41:07
idea to the Department
41:11
of Health and even closing the Education Department counseling grants and all
41:14
those things. We have ensure that we informed our members
41:18
to be responsive to
41:21
that. And so, I mean even 46,000 letters to Capitol Hill
41:25
regarding and expressing their views before March and
41:30
ensuring that we want to make sure that we rally
41:33
on what is right for kids and for professionals. And so we'll continue to do
41:36
that. We're conducting Hill meetings. We're going to continue to do that as we have
41:40
been, I've been involved probably the last four years, I think, and we'll be
41:43
doing that again this July. But the number of individuals who show up who represent
41:46
their state units is going to be key, even in this
41:50
round. And you know, in the past we've talked about T shirt shortages
41:54
and by God, mental health supports, you know,
41:57
and appropriations are going to continue to be key, but it's going to look
42:01
differently. And so we should continue to just mention our efforts
42:04
with membership and our campaign to get folks a
42:08
part of this great force to be reckoned with and continue to fight.
42:12
And I think that's what's key. We're not going to stop. Just as you talk
42:15
about DEA and I work, as you talk about individuals
42:19
of color like myself, you called it a program government,
42:23
but we've always been here. We're going to continue to be at the table and
42:26
fight for what's right. So even though we may not be invited here,
42:29
we're going to knock that door down and sit down and make sure that you
42:31
understand and see our face and do the work. So I'm
42:35
empowered to do that and we'll continue. Thank you. Karim Kuna,
42:39
any adds to that? No, I, I'm not
42:42
going to top that. I think that was great. What do you see? I mean,
42:45
I have two last questions. You know, they're mostly looking at the future. What do
42:49
you think is the best possible scenario in the next three years or
42:52
four years? She's, she's smiling very
42:55
Cool. Nobody wants to say anything on this one. No.
42:58
Karim and I have noodled this question around. We actually got
43:03
on the phone to talk about it and it's,
43:07
you know, we could swing, we could swing
43:10
this in a positive or a negative light. And I just want to be transparent
43:14
that right now it does not feel like an opportunity moment.
43:17
When Cec was thinking about how to celebrate Idea's
43:21
50th anniversary birthday this year,
43:24
right. We were thinking about a celebration. Now it feels like we
43:28
need to, you know, hold the line against what
43:32
feels like real threats. So I
43:36
think our best case scenario, frankly, is that
43:39
we're able to maintain this
43:43
acceptance of the idea of inclusion for all
43:46
children in education and looking
43:50
forward, build on that legacy
43:54
and have kind of a vision to
43:59
improve special education in the next 50 years.
44:03
Karima and I are both younger than Idea. We have
44:06
generations of folks who take for granted inclusion.
44:11
Right. Most of our population doesn't know what
44:15
it looked like 50 years ago. They don't know the stories of Willowbrook and
44:19
other institutions where kids were being warehoused,
44:23
abused, their capacity really
44:27
diminished. Right? We take for granted
44:31
that all kids are entitled to a free, appropriate public education in
44:35
the least restrictive environment. And part of that, and part of, I think
44:39
what we're seeing in terms of headwinds is that folks
44:43
don't know that that wasn't always there,
44:47
right? They just don't. They don't. They're not aware,
44:51
right. Even in the messaging
44:54
around kids with disabilities being,
44:58
you know, going to schools for the deaf, right?
45:01
It's like that. It seems like our leaders
45:04
don't understand what special education is. So I
45:08
think, you know, our best case scenario is that
45:11
we're able to hold, hold the ground
45:15
that we've, that we've already kind of won
45:18
or created or established and
45:22
really look at what can we do better. Right? And I think part of that,
45:26
Karim talked about it earlier, but I think part of that is really making sure
45:30
that, that the general population, not just lawmakers,
45:34
but your friends,
45:36
understand what special education is,
45:39
why it's important. Right. And,
45:43
and that it crosses every part of our society.
45:47
Right. I went to a conference,
45:52
a disability conference once, where the keynote speaker greeted
45:57
the audience as disabled and temporarily able
46:01
bodied people. Right. And it's real reminder
46:05
that disabilities
46:09
impacts everyone. Right. And so how can we
46:14
as a community, as a society, continue to improve
46:18
conditions, right. And especially at a time when
46:22
we are facing perceived or real threats.
46:26
And I think to finish, just as she said, the best case scenario is that
46:29
we Build on that legacy that has been in place for the last 50 years
46:32
and that we don't backslide as a nation. It's going to be key
46:36
that we understand that it's not a time to go backwards.
46:38
Yeah. This is a time for us to move forward and move forward together.
46:42
I think about even our initiative as a council for exceptional children
46:46
when we conducted our last strategic plan and we looked at those
46:50
things at the face of adversity during the pandemic
46:54
and what was happening then. To compare the now,
46:57
certainly different themes, but to look at the
47:00
importance for us as an organization to be committed to moving forward together
47:04
and not to backslide. And so I think we'll continue to focus
47:08
and be committed to that work. That's great. I want to
47:11
just add a few things. First, I think we should have a celebration regardless.
47:15
So if you are the oce, I think it's even more important
47:19
to celebrate and to amplify
47:23
what idea have done the last 73 years. So let's don't
47:26
share a way of celebrations, even though it's hard moments.
47:29
Even you need celebrations when there's hard moments that are even more important,
47:32
I think. And the last question that I
47:36
have for you, you know that this question that I asked you was like more
47:38
pragmatic. I mean, what is achievable to do in this current context?
47:42
Right. And you're from that. And the last question I have for you that I
47:46
ask every interviewee is
47:49
about dreaming. Right. It's always important to be dreaming and always portrays to be
47:53
thinking more of. I don't know what's a utopian, but thinking about what we really
47:57
want to to happen here for you, what would you like to see
48:01
in the Next, let's say, 10 years in regards to equity and inclusion
48:05
for students with disabilities? Just dream big. Dream big. Here there is no pragmatic
48:09
constraint. There is no administrations dream big. I think
48:13
for me it's just wrapped up into success and hope for
48:18
the individuals who we work and fight for, which I think is key. And that's
48:22
how I think about just removing my own concerns
48:26
and limitations to think about theirs and putting them at the forefront
48:30
so that unity is there in peace and hope and harmony that we talk about
48:33
and want to fight for. Certainly we need full funding and certainly
48:37
we need all of the things that we talk about. But in the world of
48:39
peace, I mean, it's not cliche, it's real. We need it in
48:43
these times of uncertainty. I would like to see our
48:47
educator prep programs double the amount
48:50
that are, that are being prepared for the profession.
48:54
I would love to see all educators and including
48:59
special educators celebrated the way that we had that one
49:02
special moment during the pandemic where everybody, it seemed
49:05
like nationwide and especially parents realized, oh, wow,
49:08
teachers do a lot right. I would like,
49:13
I would like the special educator profession to be recognized
49:17
for the intense complexity that goes
49:21
into effectively educating a wide range of people with
49:25
disabilities. I would love for
49:29
people with disabilities to be at
49:32
the forefront of the, you know, of the school system
49:36
so that when folks think about schools or early childhood
49:40
intervention programs, right. They think about all children and
49:44
kids with disabilities are genuinely included in that perception
49:48
and not othered into idea. Right.
49:53
There's, there's so much that we still can do,
49:57
I think, and we have a membership that knows how to
50:00
do it right and does it really well and brings that
50:04
passion. I would love to see that spread.
50:08
Well, those are beautiful thoughts and great way to end
50:12
this interview. Thank you so much, Karim and Kuna.
50:15
It's been a pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you
50:19
for having us. Thank you. It's been fun.
50:26
Thank you for listening to Dive In. I hope you
50:29
learned from this episode as much as I did. Please help
50:33
us to spread the word about the show. See you next time.