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The Philosophy of Pleasure and Pain - Decoding the Marquis de Sade · Dirt Nap City - History's Most Interesting Dead People

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: Hello everybody.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: I saw when I was winding up and going far from the mic, I saw that smile on your face.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a little while.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a minute.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh hello everybody.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to another episode of Dirt Knap City, the podcast about interesting dead people.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Kelly, I got an interesting one for you today.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: How you doing, man?
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm doing pretty good.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm enjoying this fall weather finally.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's feel finally feeling like real football season.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: Football in Texas is kind of a hot weather sport.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Can be, yeah.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I have a tricky person for you today.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, by tricky, I mean I have to tread lightly about this person.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we've had we've had our share of scoundrels on here before, right?
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like just Ballister Crowley, the wickedest man in the world.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: And he might not even make the top five, right?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like, he's the wickedest man in the world, but still like not as bad as Henry VIII.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: True.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, who are some other ones?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Resputon.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: A rascal.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: You could argue Henry Ford had some had some dark sides to him.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: Even Casanova, you know, was in and out of jail all the time, you know.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: We don't always focus on the the angels.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Al Capone, right?
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: No, he killed some people.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: Probab probably more than Henry VIII, actually.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I don't know.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's maybe that's debatable.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: So it's important that we not assume that we're glamorizing people just because they're on this show, right?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: We just call balls and strikes, we we call it like we see it, we uh we feature people that were interesting, not necessarily good, right?
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's true.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, glamorize.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think we've ever glamorized anything in our lives.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: I never have.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: To make something more glamorous, that's that's just not me.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think you um I think Mr.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Rogers episode was a little uh we had a it's glamorous to begin with.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, let's let's this is Mr.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: Rogers, you know.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: I see.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: So you're saying make more glamorous than he actually was.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and I'm speaking about glamour more in the uh beauty sense, you know, like the superficial oh yes.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: He he was glamorous, and and we made him even more glamorous, so I stand corrected.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: If if he didn't look good, we don't look good.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: And he probably didn't look good then.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're a new listener, uh welcome.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: And um, we have a whole back catalog of uh people that are interesting and like 120 episodes worth.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man, and you don't have to go in order, but no, it's better if you don't.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: If you hear us reference somebody, maybe maybe go back and see what what it is that we're talking about.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: If you've never heard the Vidal Sassoon episode, you gotta go back and yes, even if just for the song.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: Or Henry the Eighth.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: That is that one also has a great song.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and and that is actually our most popular episode by a long shot.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: Or Henry the Ford.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: Henry the Ford, yes.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: That is that is also an episode.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna talk about a guy today who was not a good person.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and midway through prepping for this, I almost I almost stopped.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: Stopped.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: I almost said, you know what?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Did you uncover new information or you just stomach it?
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's like kind of that.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of like how do I talk with this person without sounding like a a creep?
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I'm gonna try that today, and maybe I'll fail.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe, maybe the takeaway from today's episode is that I'm a creep.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, maybe maybe is it Tom York?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was gonna say, I'm a creep and I'm a weirdo.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: The hell am I doing here?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: I don't belong here.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um we're looking for your replacement.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna try it.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna try it.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna talk about this guy because I think that he was really interesting, and like a lot of people I'm interested in, it's a name that we all know.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we don't know much about them, but have kind of a lasting impact, and I think that we can learn a little bit about this person without glamorizing this person.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I would encourage our listeners to email us your thoughts about the type of people that we cover.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like, should we cover more creeps?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: Should we cover less creeps?
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: Should we do Tom York when he dies?
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh not at dirtnep city, not NOT at dirtnepcity.com.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: Let's hope that the response is we should do more creeps.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that would certainly open up a lot of options for us.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: We gotta sprinkle them in every now and then, though.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean, for every Johnny Appleseed, there's gotta be a resputant.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: Hashtag sprinkle the creeps.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's the yin and the yang of this thing.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you've got to balance it out.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so let's talk about this person.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you probably know him more by his title than his actual name, and he um his name has become a word that's in our lexicon now.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: He was born in 1740 in Paris and died in 1814 in Charenton, France.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: And his name is is a word is a derivative of a I mean it's um like it's become a word or it's turned into a word that we use today.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: So is a French guy a word that means the something bad, I'm assuming.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, I would say something uh deviant at least.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: Something deviant.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh and is it a French word?
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: Does it sound French?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: No, I don't think so.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think you would think of it as a French word.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: Not like not like uh escargot or something like that.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, that's very French.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um can you give me any more clues?
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: The word um itself, this will give it to you, but that's okay.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um the word describes people who derive pleasure from inflicting pain on others.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, is it a masochist?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: The opposite of that.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, say a sadist.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: A sadist.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I guess a masochist likes the ple likes the pain, and a sadist likes to give the pain.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Is that right?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: We are talking about Alphonse Francois de Sade, or otherwise known as the Marquis de Sade.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: Marquis de Sade.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: Is that sadomasochist?
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: No, just sadist.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Sad Marquis was his title.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, okay, okay.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like the Mercury Marquis.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, Marquis de Sade.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: Marquis de Sade.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever heard of the Marquis de Sade?
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: M-A-R-Q-U-I-S.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard a brother Marquis.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: And and the Mercury Marquis, like I said.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: And the Mercury Marquis, yeah.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: And the Marquis at the movie theater.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: A marquis is somebody like no noble person or like a royalty.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so back uh if you remember um from the Napoleon episode, prior to Napoleon, there was a monarchy in France, right?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, and this guy, uh Alphonse, he was born into that nobility.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: So his like on his mother's side, he was actually related to the king of France.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: And going back to like the third 13th century, you know, that royalty.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: So he was um, you know, of that class.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, probably brought up wearing uh chiffons and those, you know, those poofy neck things and powdering a wig and clutching at pearls, yeah, all that stuff.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, all that stuff.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: Really rich, elitist, um, pompous, arrogant, uh, all that stuff that comes with that stuff.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then plus the French aspect of all that, too, right?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you add that on top, yeah.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: Probably super unbearable to be around.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um smoked.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: His father was a dragoon captain.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what a ri dragoon is?
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: I have heard of that.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like the royal dragoons, um, they are some kind of infantry or foot soldiers.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: So drag dragoons are people that they they kind of ride into battle on horses, but then they get off the horse and they fight on foot.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, okay.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they carry guns, and the guns, the handguns were called dragons.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, so so the dragoon carries the dragon.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: They also had a longer gun that was like a shotgun called a blunderbuss.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever heard of a blunderbus?
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Blunderbuss?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: That would be a great band name, as I like to say.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: We are blunderbuss from Austin, Texas.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_04: One, two, three, four.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: Blunderbuss is a great name.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds like uh an insult.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like, quit being such a blunderbuss.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of like Nimrod, remember Nimrod?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: Which means hunter, actually.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they had dragoons all over the world, but um, but in France, his dad was a captain of of those people.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: And his mother was.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Here's another job that you may have heard but not know what it is.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe from Henry the Eighth, you might remember this.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, his mother was a lady in waiting.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know what a lady in waiting is?
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Does she wait on the uh queen?
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but what what do you mean by wait?
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um I do I don't know in this case.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: Works for the queen.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but because they were also noble people, too.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't like it was like um wasn't like a personal assistant.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh okay.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: It was more like a companion, somebody to hang out with.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: So a lady in waiting is like a personal companion to another noble woman, and they would like help them dress.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: You can imagine what they all the stuff that they wore back then.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, lots of corsets, lots of buttons, lots of.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: You have to have somebody help you, but it's not always like a servant, it's sometimes just your friend.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and her his mother was a lady in waiting to Princess de Cond.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: So he grew up close to royalty and surrounded by all this privilege and wealth, and just to give you an idea what his mom's life would have been like, so she'd wake up and then prepare her mistress and help her dress, and then you'd put on like a layer of silk, and then maybe the corsets, like you said, and then maybe big jewels and then a big, big giant wig, you know, and then they would go to breakfast and they would gossip, they would just talk about all the people around and who's with who, and uh, they would just gossip, and people would listen in, and like that, like that's how people's reputations would be formed.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: It was just awful.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: Then in the afternoon, maybe they'd walk through the garden of this is Versailles.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever been to Versailles or seen pictures of Versailles?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen pictures, yes.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, just this real opulent place.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: They'd walk through the gardens, maybe, maybe they'd go to a concert or a play put on in their honor.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then at night you go to like a ball or dinner, big fancy dinner or a card game.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Hockey game.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that was like every night they would have stuff like that.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's just the height of opulence.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sounds like a rough, rough life for the lady in waiting.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you say that probably yeah, for the lady in waiting, or even for the royalty, because there's no privacy and there's constant judgment.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: You're judging people, they're judging you.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you just don't have I mean, it's better than being a peasant, probably.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: But it's also probably not a great life.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's you're rich and you don't have anything to do, but it's probably not fun.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: Imagine, imagine too, if you were like a serious introvert, you know, because I don't think back then they thought of introverts and extroverts, but you were a serious introvert and you were a lady in waiting, and you had to walk around and gossip and go to all these events and things and talk to people.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: That'd be horrible.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure the British royal family has their share of people that hate it.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, look at Prince Harry, you know, he got out, yeah, got out of the game.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so our boy Alphonse was kind of watching this all as a kid and kind of rebelling against it.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you can imagine just as kids are rebellious, he just was rebelling on all this.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: He was a spoiled brat.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: He would get in violent outbursts if he didn't get his way.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: Just argumentative, just a spoiled brat.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: When he was about four or five years old, he attacked the prince's son while they were playing, viciously beat him, um, just beat the hell out of this other little kid, and they sent him away from Versailles.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like, can't play well with others.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: Later, when he got older, they sent him to a college in Paris, and they had corporal punishment at this college, and he was always getting in trouble.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this affected him badly.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Just this idea that if you misbehave, the powers that be will inflict pain on you.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and now where we went to high school in the 1980s, they also had corporal punishment.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we've talked about this.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: Pops, SWATs, licks.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: Have we talked about this on the show before?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think so.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like we I feel like we did.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I feel like you were in favor of corporal punishment.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: Just give it over with.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Give me my pops.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, give me my I only got pops, I only got pops one time, I think.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, and and I think it hurt.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: It hurt.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: I remember that.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, I I feel like it is sort of a way to make it quick and not painless, but at least you can say, okay, that's done, I can move on.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I was mortified when I came to Texas from Michigan and learned that they were still like had officially sanctioned beatings of kids, and my parents wrote all the necessary paperwork, and I was not to be touched.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that also made me a target in other ways, I think, by the uh powers that be.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you're too good for pops, huh?
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: I've I've apologized before, Alex, and I I didn't mean it.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: I know I still owe you your lunch money for several years.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna get it back to you, I promise.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man, pops, and everyone just kind of took it like it wasn't barbaric.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like it wasn't like who is this grown man who I don't know.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um bending me over a desk and and hitting me with a stick, acting like that was normal.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: What the hell, man?
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so, anyways, we it you know, it didn't it wasn't like this was super barbaric in 1700 France because in 1980s, uh Sugarland, Texas, we were also doing corporate bunch tracks.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: True, true, and we liked it.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: So when um Alphonse was a teenager, he fought in the Seven Years' War, and there he rep developed a reputation for bravery and arrogance.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: And like I said, the arrogance kind of followed him around.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: He was just uh probably an arrogant among arrogant people as well, too.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: Arrogance squared.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then there were a couple instances that scandals that I'm not gonna spend a whole lot of time on because we can just kind of uh let's just agree that he was a bad guy.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but there was something called the Arcoy Affair.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in 1763, he was 23 years old and married to a rich lady.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: But months after his wedding, he was accused of abducting and imprisoning a prostitute in the house he rented.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um the woman claimed that he whipped her, and he would ask her if she believed in God, and she would say yes, and he would he would like force her to say that there is no God, and so there was like blasphemy, which is was a huge crime back then, but just doing it like for the sake of breaking the law, basically, and and unengaging in what they called unnatural acts.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: So a little bit ha half uh Rob Halford and half Diddy.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, blasphemy and sexual violence were very serious crimes in France back then, and that was back in the or in the days of Louis the Fifteent.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and so if you remember from the Napoleon episode, in the Louis the Fifteenth days, I mean, they would famously just um put people in jail without a trial.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: So that's exactly what happened here.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh Saad was arrested, and um Louis XV ordered him to go to jail without trial.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: He was released a few weeks later, but just kind of like remember in the Casanova episode where Casanova would constantly be put in jail and then released and then back in jail and then released, in and out.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: He was always one step ahead of the law, right?
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then they'd throw him in jail, and then he would like just break law for sport, basically.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, a few years later, they had what they call the Marseille scandal.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: He was in Marseille, he and his his valet.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: Valet is like kind of like your butler, right?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they they help you get dressed and do those sort of things, right?
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: Lots of people help jobs helping people get dressed.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: So they had like a prostitute party slash orgy kind of thing, and he gave a bunch of these hookers Spanish fly.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: Spanish fly was a real thing, like they would take this like um toxins from these um blister beetles, it's basically poison, you know, and sometimes that would be aphrodisiac and sometimes it would kill you.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it was basically poison.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: These women became violently ill, they accused them of attempted murder and sodomy and all this stuff.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: So he dipped out of France.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: He was on the lamb, he was sentenced to death in absentia, and he and his valet were executed in effigy, they couldn't find them, so they made these you know dolls of their straw, straw with clothes on them and burned them, burned them and yeah, cut them up and and all that, and so they were like fugitives.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, then he got it captured and then imprisoned again, and at this point he starts to become kind of a legend, and this is very similar to like I say, so a lot of these people that we've talked about are kind of bad boys, but then they're so bad they be kind of come legendary at some point.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: There's like this section of society that kind of thinks they're cool, and keep in mind that they're so like um um revolutionary or against the establishment, and the establishment wasn't great, right?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was like you're talking about people putting them people in jail without trial, and the revolution is starting to bubble up.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: So anybody that is kind of counter culture, they think is kind of cool, and they had a word for this in French, they called them libertines.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever heard of libertines?
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: I have, yeah, yeah.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so libertine in France was somebody that rejected any kind of religious or moral or social restraints, they were the free thinkers.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so a lot of artists, musicians, politicians were known as libertines, and they were kind of the first group that was starting to bubble up in this revolution.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, it's it's um someone who also by the that was originally what libertines were.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: Then it started to take on a more seedy kind of term where it was somebody who pursues sensual pleasure without regard for morality, religion, or social rules.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: So not just somebody that rejects those rules, but somebody's like seeking out kind of hedonistic pursuits, right?
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where he kind of differed from Casanova.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: Is it Casanova?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: Casanova, I think, would tell you he was a lover.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: Lover and a and a swindler.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: But he loved the ladies, right?
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if Casanova didn't love the ladies, who who would, right?
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, he's literally synonymous with it.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: But Saad was not about that, he was about power, he was about and and about exploring kind of the edges, the boundaries of freedom.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: So you think about it, like back then they're really trying to figure out what freedom really was, and and freedom, kind of unchecked freedom, is can be pretty cruel, right?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: Without any empathy and without any morality.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, freedom, it's like the purge, right?
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, total freedom is just people going around doing whatever they want.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's probably not good, but I think that it's probably in human history, it was kind of necessary, or maybe not necessary is the wrong word, maybe inevitable that somebody would test the bounds of freedom this much, right?
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: So now he's locked up and he starts writing, like as many of our people that we've talked about.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Get locked up and then they just start writing crazy stuff.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: And first he starts writing plays and letters to his wife.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then he writes married to a very rich noblewoman.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, it's France in the 1700s, so yes, all bets are off.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: All bets are off.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: He writes this book.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: The book is called 120 Days of Sodom.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, okay.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: And the interesting part about this book is that he wrote it in secret because he wasn't allowed to like write.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: He wrote it on a tiny scroll of paper that was like 30 feet long on in microscopic script.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm kind of almost picturing like a ribbon.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: And you unveil it and it has the entire book.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: And he's writing this in microscopic script and hiding it in his cell.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: And this book, they say, is one of the most disturbing books ever written, but also one of the most unreadable books ever written.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: Not just because it's on a 30-foot piece of scroll.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: In microscopic letters.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: But even when it was later published, I think it was kind of unreadable just because it was a lot of ramblings, but also super offensive.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think by today's standards we'd call it pornographic.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's kind of like that flea uh poem.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: The poem about fleas, you know, mingling the blood and such.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: Or some of the um didn't Alistair Crowley have some some ramblings that were sort of erotic and and very charged for the time.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this book wasn't even like a novel.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: It was about four wealthy libertines who locked themselves up in a castle with a group of people who were kidnapped.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then the book is is not as much of a novel, but an encyclopedia of depravity.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, it goes through and it it like walks you through every single like offensive act that somebody could engage in and make and has a little passage about them doing that.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like it's like a total.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think these days it would be anything that you could, you know, google on a adult website, but back then this was pretty scandalous.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: And almost like a definition or an explanation of these things, yeah.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe like like if you wanted to know what a dirty Sanchez was, you would look it up here.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, exactly.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was along those lines.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, now he didn't publish this, he just wrote it in his cell.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and he it wasn't published actually until he after his death.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and when they asked him um who he was right because he wrote a couple of other things and they asked who he was writing for, and he said, I was writing for future readers who might understand me.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's who he had in mind.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: He had us in mind, I guess.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: He said for podcasters who might want to know.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: He said that his goal was immortality through outrage.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think that is so cool.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think that not cool, but like I think there's a lot of people that we that are in our world now, or people that we've talked about in the past, who they would sign up for that.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Immortality through outrage.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's probably why a lot of mass shooters do what they do, right?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: They they think they'll be famous forever, you know, and and unfortunately that entire segment has gotten so saturated that now they're famous for two weeks or two days and then they're forgotten.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, speaking of that, there was a there was a phase in between Columbine and now where they would not give the names of these people.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then they started doing that again.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know why, but all of a sudden it seems like in the last five or ten years we've started using the names again.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we should go back to where we don't even know what these people's names are, we just don't refer to them by their name anymore.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I would agree with that.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: You don't want to glorify them or make them sound important.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this guy though, he kind of changed his stance after a while.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, when he was dying, he asked that all of his unpublished works be destroyed and that his grave would be unmarked, so no trace of me may remain on earth.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: But instead, the opposite happened, and he kind of got his wish of immortality through outrage because in the 20th century people started discovering his works.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: Up until then, they were kind of being sold at collect like collectors would buy them back and forth, but then they start publishing like that hundred and days 20 days of Sodom.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: That wasn't published, I think, till the 1900s.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: So somebody took that scroll, um, magnified it, transcribed it, and copied it and and put it on a printing press.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: And translated into you know a hundred languages, and all of a sudden he's a cult hero among the you know that set of of 20th century libertines, you know.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's pretty crazy because that that idea of immortality through outrage, he kind of took it back, and then that's exactly what happened to him.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: But beneath all the horror of all this stuff, there's moral and philosophical questions that he kind of came to, like this idea that nature doesn't care about good and evil, you know.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: If you look at if you look at at how nature is, it doesn't, you know, there's no in in the jungle, there's no good and evil.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: There's just and and we kind of accept that, right?
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but then the idea that we're part of nature, so why is there good and evil?
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's a very philosophical question, right?
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the idea that he had that power and pleasure are inseparable.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: Power and pleasure, huh?
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: Power and pleasure are inseparable, and that's the reason people want power is for pleasure.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then later pain and pleasure being inseparable, um, which you know I don't think is as universal, maybe, but he thought that.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and also this idea he said that moral rules that civilizations had, I mean, keep in mind the time that he lived in, that moral rules are hypocritical, and that people would condemn vices publicly but crave them privately.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think those are some issues that we still wrestle with today.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, people in power still have scandals all the time, and the most depraved stuff is usually the most powerful people getting into all kinds of you mentioned Diddy earlier, right?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, um, you could say that money is what corrupted Diddy, or maybe it was maybe Diddy was motivated by power from the beginning in order to get to that point.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: But it is interesting that throughout history, like the most wealthy and powerful people are the kind of the most craven, um, nasty people around, right?
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, they can be.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: They can be.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: And and and I think they're usually perceived, at least until until they're discovered, they're perceived as, well, this is a wealthy person.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: They uh they probably are a good person.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's good is associated with having wealth and power, um fame, or just being known.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: But but you're right.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: It you know, it comes to light, and then you realize, oh gosh, this person really got messed up.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: So these books would like be a mirror of civilization's dark side, right?
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: So he's just kind of pointing out kind of the dark side.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: And if you know, you go through history, there's there's other people that in in our lifetime that have kind of done this this same thing, artists um who have kind of pointed out the hypocrisy of people and the kind of the uh depravity of people, even though I mean um you didn't have to like them, but they are making a point, kind of, you know?
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of um a lot of rockers, a lot of um punk rockers, a lot of um artists, um offensive people that um that in the 20th century for sure.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: GG Allen.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't know.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: He was just offensive for offensive sake, maybe.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if he was trying to make a well he he I'm mentioning him now, so maybe he was offensive for um immortality's sake.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, sure, sure.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: Or even somebody like Frank Zappa, you know, would point out hypocrisy, every chance he got, you know, or um But I guess I guess the question is are they doing it um are they doing it to point things out and enlighten the world, or are they doing it for their own gain and pleasure, right?
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because you think of a sadist as someone who is and and not necessarily that that uh Alphonse was a sadist the way we think of it today, but it's named after him, right?
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um is it somebody who is pointing out someone else or the some the world's flaws to point them out and enlighten people, or are they doing something to bring themselves pleasure?
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think he would that's this was the tricky part about focusing on this guy because I think on one hand, he was just a gross, creepy, pervert rapist.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, why are we talking about him 200 years later?
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: But then it was these writings that he would do to be like, yeah, I am, but so are you.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, almost like in a Charles Manson kind of way.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like he that guy wrote some crazy songs and poetry.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was I was thinking of Manson a little while ago before you Yeah, I mean he did um I was gonna say wasn't a murder, but I guess he did, you know, almost murder those women through uh the Spanish Fly incident.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: But I think he was depraved, but he would say, But you all are, and I'm just honest about it.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's that's pretty hardcore, but I think that's what his contribution is, is like you all just pretend to be the way I am.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just I'm just free and you're not, you know.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: So so when he was in jail, one of the places that you know the name of the place they would put, like the building in France or in Paris where they would put all the criminals, like the Basilica or the Bastille.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Bastille, yeah, that's right.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, um this Bastille was, you know, in the French Revolution, the Bastille got stormed, right?
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: And all the the revolutionaries came and they they let all the prisoners out.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: That was Bastille Day, yeah.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, we celebrate that now.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: That was 1789, that was kind of the end of the monarchy.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he had been transferred out of the Bastille ten days earlier, and he thought that that book was lost, and that's why he never knew it was found, and that's you know, it was found then in the in the 20th century, but um he never knew it was actually found.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: So after that revolution happens, then they just go on and then they the revolutionaries come and they just take over, and like all the monarchy is gone, right?
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody's getting executed.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um the King Louis XV is executed, you know, the guillotine.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: They have those guillotines everywhere.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: King Louis was was um executed.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: Marie Antoinette, they got the guillotine.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and when you think about it, this guy was royalty, you know, nobleman.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: He should have got the same execution that everybody else did, but he reinvented himself as a revolutionary.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm one of you guys.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: After all, I was the one that got put in jail without a trial, so I'm one of you, I'm not a nobleman.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, he stopped calling himself Marquis de Sade and he called himself Citizen Sade.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, okay.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: No, what are you talking about?
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not royalty, I'm just like you guys.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then he even got himself put on the committee that decided who got the guillotine, like one of the committees.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's a nice, nice job to have, right?
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he just presented himself as a victim of aristocratic abuse and that he was in prison without trial.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: You may build that shed in your backyard and you get the guillotine.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's like being on the the homes council.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: Dude, they had 17,000 people were executed by guillotine during that during that time.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: Just like it was like every day there were mass executions by um, and it was like people started turning on their neighbors, um, and you'd be like accused in the morning and beheaded by the afternoon.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's swift very efficient, yeah.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: They would call that efficient.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: It would all, you know, I'm sure that uh it was just I can't even imagine living with times.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure they didn't get it wrong, though.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure everybody that was well, it wasn't even a matter of right or wrong.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: They didn't do anything wrong, they were just part of like royalty, and they just wanted to get rid of all of that.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: So the that time was there was a there was a name for that time in France.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: It was called the Reign of Terror.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: You're you've heard of the Reign of Terror.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: R E I G H N.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right, Reign of Terror, which it sounds like a good heavy metal album.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: Reign of terror.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the head of the revolutionary government was this guy named uh Robespierre.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I've heard of Robespierre, yeah.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: And he decided that any opposition to the revolution was treason, and so everybody that was against him was got the guillotine, so which doesn't seem much better than what they were fighting against, right?
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: They were fighting against the monarch that would would uh would put people in jail without a trial.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, basically doing the same thing, yeah, yeah.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: But they're doing it to the other guys, they're doing it just yeah, they're just labels.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: These were poor people doing it to rich people instead of rich people doing it to poor people.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um they were calling it virtue through terror.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's chilling to hear, right?
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: It is so by 1794, Robespierre starts accusing other revolutionaries like his buddies, the people that went against because he was so paranoid, and then they eventually turned on him.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: So they executed him.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: Talk about just instability, right?
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like everybody's just killing everybody, and just guillotines.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you don't even that's so swift, and things can turn on a dime, you know, a moment in one day you're in power and the next day you're getting your head chopped.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: So Robespierre gets executed, and at the time that that happened, um Saad was citizen Saad was back in prison, and then when Robespierre got executed, they emptied all the prisons, and Saad just walked out.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, like he just keeps like rasputing, he just keeps on like the needle.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, if it had been one more day, he wouldn't have made it.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: He was like sentenced to die the next day at get executed.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: But that kind of what gave the rise to Napoleon because people were just craving order and stability, and he was this you know military guy, and that was when you remember you you talked about the directory.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: That was Napoleon's crew, was was the directory.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so at this time, Marquise de Sad or Citizen Sad or Alphonse or whatever you want to call him is just chilling.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: He's living a quiet but kind of still scandalous life, like he's still getting in a lot of trouble, a lot of prostitutes, a lot of orgies, a lot of debauchery.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they he keeps going in and out of jail.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but actually, when Napoleon was in charge, uh he got put in jail, which actually probably saved him because rather than him being out on the street where somebody probably would have executed him, he was like safely in prison.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: He was he was being guarded.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: That might be the best place to be during those times.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, could be they never actually met he and Napoleon, and then um Marquis de Sad died in 1814, just months before Napoleon got exiled.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it was just kind of cool to follow this guy's life and see all the stuff that was happening around him.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: He just keeps threading this needle, being a bad boy, getting put in jail, kind of being a legend, and then a couple you know, 150 years later, people kind of rediscover him and he becomes kind of this cult figure.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the word sadism was coined by psychologists in the 1900s to describe people who derive pleasure from inflicting pain on others.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: Now you mentioned masochism a while back.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: Masochism is enjoying pain, yes, and that also comes from a person named Leopold von Saker Masoch.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oh probably an Australian, Austrian, German.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: Did they ever the say the origin of sadism and the origin of masochism?
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: They never but together that's SNM.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, SM, baby.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: Not SNL, S and M.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: SNM, sadism and masochism.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but no, that's not um they I don't think they ever knew each other.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: I would imagine, I don't know, I think Leopold von Saker Masak was probably Austrian or German, um, but that's a whole different uh deal.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: But um I guess like I said before, the lesson of Marquis de Sade is that freedom, kind of unchecked freedom, um just hedonism for hedonism's sake can become cruel and isn't the greatest, isn't what we should be striving for, probably.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes people mistake freedom for just being able to do whatever they want at other people's expense, and I'm not okay with that.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Sammy Hagar, you can drive 55 because it puts everyone else's life in danger when you drive 56.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: So when I started learning about this guy, I um got to about the second scandal of you know the Spanish fly, and uh, and I was like, I don't think I could go and talk about each one of these scandals or even each one of these books, because they're all just you know, what's the point?
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he was not a uh a good person, not a not a person that we should be glorifying, I don't think.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I really do think, and and and in schools, they teach like in college in France, they teach about this guy, and they don't consider him a hero or anything, but he was one of these people that he's considered a philosopher.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: He's considered, I don't know if they considered a great writer or anything, but they consider more of a philosopher that contributed by talking about the limits and boundaries of freedom.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, the United States was just starting around that time as well.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think there was a lot of people, this this concept of freedom and and getting away from monarchies and having people rule the government that seems so obvious now, maybe not so much in the last few years, but uh it seems so obvious to us that yeah, you could have a government by the people, but that was kind of a revolutionary thing back then, and everybody was trying to kind of figure out how you would do that, and definitely France was a few years ahead of us and did not do a good job with that, right?
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they kind of uh played, they trailblazed and they made some mistakes that were able to maybe be learned from.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: And if you think about guys like Ben Franklin, who we've talked about, who used to go to France, yeah, and he was ambassador to France.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um they saw this kind of stuff, and they that's how we got some of our checks and balances and and um and warnings and you know, uh kind of cautionary tales about freedom came from the stuff that was going on in France.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: Who knows if if this stuff hadn't gone on in France, it could have happened here because they were just a little bit this stuff was just happening right around the time we were starting our American experiment.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's really cool when you put all in context with each other about like it wasn't just this dirty old man running around causing trouble, but he was actually questioning the boundaries of freedom.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why I continued um to uh learn about and um share with you today the story of Marquis de Sad.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: Marquis de Sade, um R.I.P.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: I guess.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I guess rest in freedom.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, rest rest in rest in sadism, R I S.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_05: Darking house, no light, no end.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_05: Skin on skin a twisted bend.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_05: Screams like echoes in love void Broken souls, your favorite soy.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_04: Is this freedom or decay?
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_04: Do you lead or do you pray?
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_04: Change of side, full tight, full tight.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_04: Pleasure pain, no wrong, no right.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_04: Change of side day, no escape, no fight.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_04: Your kingdom born in endless night.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_06: Quills dip deep in crimson ink.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_06: Right what others dare not think?
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_04: Madness spilling on the page Cage of lust you only stage.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_04: Does it matter?
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_04: It's all the same.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_04: Pleasure pain, no wrong, no right.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_04: Shades of Saturday, no escape, no fight.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_04: Your kingdom born in endless night.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_04: Flesh of pain, no wrong, no right.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_04: Chains of Sade, no escape, no fight.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_04: Your kingdom born in the side.