Latest / 4-Freedom Podcast / 190. Alex Macfarland: Apologetics, Legalism, and Charlie Kirk

Transcript

190. Alex Macfarland: Apologetics, Legalism, and Charlie Kirk · 4-Freedom Podcast

0:00
Welcome back to the Four Freedom Podcast.
0:02
Brett, it feels like it's been a couple of weeks since we've
0:04
recorded and being together on the podcast with the interview
0:09
with Eric that's come out over the last couple of days.
0:12
That has been great and been a great what was what I'm looking
0:18
for engagement of people coming together and enjoying that.
0:23
Listen to that. But it's put a pause on me and
0:25
you recording because of that content that we had recorded a
0:29
while back and excited to be able to get back here together.
0:33
You excited about the episode today.
0:36
We'll get to that in just a minute.
0:37
But your crusade has ended and things are back to somewhat
0:43
normal life. How is the life of Brett Martin
0:46
doing? Man, things are going good.
0:49
I am excited about the episode today.
0:52
Like you said, a lot of people, you're right about the
0:55
engagement from Erica Pacey. A lot of people say, man, I've
0:58
heard him when I was at house or I I went to his college or I
1:03
went to his church and I was saw him transition out.
1:07
And so a lot of people know about Erica Pacey and are really
1:11
interested to hear the rest of his story.
1:13
But as far as our crusade, man, things were great.
1:16
I mean, this is was over a year of planning every single month,
1:22
you know, just doing this and lining up the bands and the
1:26
audio video stuff and written the equipment and getting the
1:30
chairs and getting the venue and we had our.
1:33
Hiccups. The the day we decided to go in
1:37
and start getting the thing ready, the city decided they
1:39
were going to remodel and repaint And we were like, we've
1:43
had this venue rented for a year, why did you come in here 2
1:47
weeks before we were going to get started?
1:50
And that put us the day before getting the thing ready and we
1:56
let the audio guy come in and and put tape down all of his
2:00
wires. And then they came in the
2:02
auditorium to scrape and paint and they pulled up every single
2:06
wire he taped down. He had to come in the Sunday
2:09
morning of the crusade and take down all his wires again.
2:14
But man, it was a great response.
2:17
The 1st that auditorium holds in 450, just the chairs in it.
2:25
Of course, we added chairs to it and I would say the first three
2:29
nights we had anywhere from 4 to 500 on the property.
2:34
But the last night, the youth night on on Wednesday night,
2:38
man, we had, we probably had 7-8 hundred in the building because
2:43
we had three overflow rooms. All three overflow rooms were
2:47
full. We had the auditorium packed out
2:50
with seats down front, folding chairs down the aisles, people
2:54
standing in the back. It was a great response.
2:57
It was a great revival. We had 17 saved and it was just
3:03
that the bands we were did great and that was good worship.
3:07
Alex McFarlane did a great job preaching and man, it was just I
3:12
couldn't have asked for a better turn out.
3:15
That's awesome. And and you know, he's shorter
3:17
than I than I imagined. I've heard him many times but I
3:20
just expected to be taller when I saw like pictures of him.
3:23
He's like this little short little gremlin, almost looking
3:26
guy he's. He's a short guy, he is.
3:28
Yeah, I wasn't expecting him to be that short.
3:32
So yeah, that that's great to hear.
3:33
Praise the Lord for those decisions and just the contacts
3:37
that you guys have made and be able to sort those out to the
3:41
churches in those areas. And hopefully we'll see some
3:44
some great move of the Lord right now.
3:47
And so it's been a good thing if you haven't went and checked out
3:51
our newest product for our Four Freedom cigar line.
3:55
We have added a coffee and soap bundle on our website there at
4:01
16 ounce cigars. And it's a great time to be able
4:04
to support some mission organization.
4:07
This is helping church planters in Nicaragua through the
4:10
purchase of coffee and then a new a new startup of of soap
4:15
there in Tennessee and just a great line up for you as as
4:19
holidays are coming up looking for good gift ideas.
4:22
It's a great way to support our ministry, but also have a great
4:29
gift and high quality things for your family.
4:32
And so we'd love for you to go and check that out.
4:34
We're excited about that and what the Lord is doing through
4:36
that ministry and the opportunity that we have.
4:40
Brett, got a couple of things coming up in a couple of weeks.
4:43
Man, it's right around the corner.
4:46
Israel. Tell us a little bit about the
4:48
Israel trip. I tell you what, if you want to
4:51
go on the Israel trip, the doors still open, the window still
4:56
open, but it is not going to be open very much longer.
4:59
You really need to get on top of things.
5:02
The dates for our Israel trip is January 30th through February
5:07
7th, 2026 and you go to go Hyphen yael.com/trips/five Five
5:16
O 9 hyphen Jan hyphen 2026. Forward slash.
5:22
If you get all that, but that is the website.
5:26
It's also going to be. On on the links going to be in
5:29
our website and in the show notes, but check it out.
5:33
I think the password is Jan 26 is the password.
5:38
But man, we are going all over the nation of Israel.
5:43
It is going to be a great opportunity for you to come see
5:46
the Holy Land. Trips are that tours are there
5:49
now. It's safe, it's open, it's
5:52
ready. We're going to stay from we're
5:56
going to land in Tel Aviv and then we're going to go to
6:00
Tiberius and stay a couple nights.
6:02
We might stay a night in Nazareth.
6:04
We're going to stay in Jerusalem.
6:07
You're going to see all kind of sites from Caesarea Philippi to
6:11
Caesarea Maritime to standing on the Temple Mount, standing on
6:16
the Mount of Olives, looking down in the Kidron Valley,
6:19
walking into the empty tomb of Jesus floating in the Dead Sea.
6:23
You're going to see all. And listen, James, we're going
6:25
to some places that me and you haven't been before.
6:28
These are going to be new places for us.
6:31
We said, look there, here's some things with that we want to go
6:34
to and I'm excited about seeing things we haven't been to yet
6:38
and it's going to great opportunity.
6:41
Jump on it now. Now's the time to to to check it
6:44
out if you want to go. Absolutely.
6:46
It's going to be a great time. We want you to go.
6:49
I was actually, we did an ordination this last week and
6:53
the guy was asking me about it and I told him, I said when I
6:55
say the Bible comes from black and white to full color, I said
7:00
it just it's one of those not it's not an understatement.
7:02
It truly is. You read your Bible different,
7:05
you interact with Scripture different and it's a life
7:09
changing event. So hopefully you can mark your
7:11
calendars and go with us January 30th through February 7th and
7:14
that'll be a great time. Brett, you had a special guest
7:17
this past Sunday at your church who joined you in your service
7:23
this past week. We had Nathan, his testimony and
7:31
things were, man, it was, it was great.
7:33
It was awesome hearing him speak after what he went through.
7:39
Man, the Holy Spirit got a hold of the service.
7:42
There were people there in the service.
7:44
It was a packed house. These people had prayed for
7:46
Nathan and they, they got to hear him speak and hear him talk
7:50
about his journey and what he's been through.
7:53
And man, it was a tremendous blessing.
7:56
We had a singing group Sunday morning and man, I just just
8:00
just time to just hang out with Nathan and catch up with him
8:05
and, and just, you know, have him sit on my back porch and
8:07
let's just talk about the Bible and talk about what the Lord's
8:11
done and the miracle that's that has been in his life.
8:14
And then drive him to the drive him to the airport the next
8:17
morning. It was just a great time.
8:20
That's awesome. Glad you got to do that.
8:22
And the guy we ordained was actually one of the guys that
8:26
Nathan had discipled for many years at the Hope Church
8:29
Asheville. And now he started a church
8:31
there in Morganton, Nebo area called Immersion Church.
8:35
And so Michael was able to be a part of that work that we
8:38
ordained him. And just a great time we have
8:40
there hanging out with some of his church members and handing
8:43
out a couple of good 4 freedom sticks.
8:45
And so it was a great time there.
8:48
But today, Brett, you did an interview.
8:49
This is a solo interview. This is your first, I think your
8:51
first solo interview that you did the, the time with just our
8:56
schedules, we weren't able to get together and do it.
8:59
And so you just pulled out a microphone and said, hey, Alex,
9:01
let's, let's do a quick interview together.
9:04
And you talk through apologetics, you talk through
9:07
legalism. And then you got to be able to
9:10
talk through the conversation with Charlie Kirk and be able to
9:13
talk through what that was like with Alex's interaction with
9:15
Charlie Kirk. Fresh own sort of what had
9:18
happened. Do your Crusade was right around
9:21
just a couple weeks ago when the Charlie Kirk incident happened.
9:25
And we haven't recorded really in person since then.
9:28
And we'll probably hear in the next week or so do something
9:32
about that. Just, you know, times have
9:34
settled down, things are moved on a little bit.
9:36
Just to be able to talk through the impact that Charlie Kirk has
9:39
had on our life and just be able to talk through a little bit of
9:43
that. But excited about the interview
9:45
today. Anything you want to say before
9:47
we jump into the interview? I just want to say, you know, it
9:50
was such a privilege to meet Alex, to be with him for a week,
9:54
to talk to him. And with his schedule, you're
9:57
always on Alex time. I mean, he's got that radio show
10:02
that he's got to do it same time every day.
10:06
And so that's one of the reasons why me and you couldn't get
10:08
together on interviewing him. But man, his mind is just sharp
10:12
as attack it the way he just brings up stuff from that
10:17
rolodex in his head, it just amazes me.
10:20
I wish I could do that, but it's it was a it was a great
10:24
conversation and I'm excited to share it with y'all.
10:27
Absolutely. Well, we hope you enjoy this
10:30
interview with Brett and Alex, and we hope you enjoy the
10:34
content. And as always, if you like it,
10:36
share it and leave us a rating review and we'll jump right into
10:41
it today. For freedom set me free.
10:44
Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee grace.
10:47
Lift the flame. Now I'm puffing.
10:49
Peace cigars and Victory Justified released.
10:54
Welcome to the For Freedom podcast.
10:56
This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for
11:00
everyday Christians with everyday issues.
11:03
I ain't. Saved by dress codes, not by
11:05
what I eat. I'm covered in the
11:07
righteousness. Washed from head to feet.
11:09
No tally of tradition, No man made code.
11:12
Blood bought my freedom. Now I ride that road.
11:14
They clutch pearls when they see smoke rings rise.
11:17
But my prey still ascends past the legalist cries.
11:20
Christ plus nothing. That's the real math.
11:22
So miss me with your fence laws and your extra path.
11:26
He sat with sinners, I'm sitting with Saints.
11:28
Slipping grace from the bottle, No room for face.
11:30
I like one for liberty. Toast to the king.
11:33
Every ash of sermon. Death has lost its sting.
11:37
For freedom He set me free, Not for change, not for guilt, not
11:40
for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now puffing
11:44
peace, cigars and victory justified, released.
11:47
For freedom, He set me free, not for change, not for guilt, not
11:51
for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame now puffing
11:54
peace, cigars and victory justified released.
11:58
Let Grace begin now. Here are.
12:06
Your hosts James Seyfried and Brett Martin.
12:10
All right, Alex, thanks for being with us today.
12:12
Thank you for taking out of your schedule.
12:15
I know we're in the middle of a crusade right now, but if you
12:18
could just give our audience just a little bit of background
12:22
on who you are and what it is that you do.
12:25
Well, thank you, Brett. It's great to be with you.
12:27
And thank you for being willing to record me.
12:31
And I want to say a big thank you for working hard on the
12:34
crusade. I, I think you are the crusade
12:37
director, aren't you? Yes, Sir.
12:39
Yeah, it's, it's been great. We're in Carthage, Ms. I've got
12:43
a a long time friend here, Steven Evans at First Baptist.
12:46
And when we begin to pray about this and plan about this, I was
12:50
just very humbled. Lot of churches have come
12:53
together. I know you're a big part of that
12:55
and people are coming out and hearing the gospel and
12:58
responding. But Brett, I grew up in North
13:02
Carolina. I told the kids over at
13:05
Sebastopol School today that I went to summer school to
13:09
graduate high school rather than get up and give a speech.
13:13
And that is true. When I went to my 25th high
13:15
school reunion. Seriously.
13:17
Because in in Greensboro, Yeah, we've been in the paper, right.
13:21
Many times. We've done youth events and
13:23
rented the Coliseum. So I go to my 25th high school
13:26
reunion and people know that I became an evangelist and
13:30
apologetics and they were like, who are you and what have you
13:33
done with Alex McFarlane? I'll never forget a guy who knew
13:36
me from high school. I was very shy.
13:38
He said what happened to you? And I said, well, Jesus happened
13:43
to me. And so we do apologetics.
13:47
I've, you know, preaching, publishing events, camps.
13:52
But when I was 21 I found Christ and I'm not over it yet.
13:57
Amen. Amen.
13:59
Well, you know, anyone that has spent any amount of time with
14:02
you knows your heart, knows you have a heart for apologetics.
14:06
I heard you say in Sebastopol that you've written 21 books.
14:10
And the book they're from 100 Bible and answer questions, 10
14:14
most common objections to Christianity.
14:17
You mentioned one about Revelations last night, which I
14:20
can't wait to get my hands on. But so with that in mind, I want
14:24
to ask you, what do you see is the biggest apologetics
14:28
challenge facing believers today?
14:31
Wow. Well, thanks for devoting some
14:33
time to this. I really think that the biggest
14:35
apologetics issue is some variant of what's called the
14:41
problem of evil or the problem of pain and suffering.
14:44
It's like, OK, if God loves me, then why am I hurting?
14:49
If God is so good, why is my life a wreck?
14:52
Why is there, you know, cancer, violence, assassinations like
14:58
Charlie Kirk? The world seems irreparably
15:01
broken. Why?
15:03
If God could fix it, why doesn't God fix it?
15:07
That is called the problem of evil, the problem of pain and
15:10
suffering. Now, I think Christianity has a
15:12
very fully orbed answer to that. In fact, really only the
15:17
biblical worldview actually can answer it.
15:21
But Brett, in interviewing literally hundreds of people,
15:26
the 10 Most Common Objections book was based on interviews
15:30
with about 200 college students. Then I did a follow up book
15:34
called The God You Thought You Knew, exposing 10 Common myths
15:39
about Christianity, 21 Questions Your Kids Will Ask About God.
15:43
I've interviewed a lot of people going through spiritual
15:46
struggles and I really do think that's the number one issue, the
15:51
problem of pain. Amen.
15:53
You know, apologetics is kind of everywhere right now.
15:57
Past couple days we've mentioned a lot about Frank Turek because
16:01
he was at Charlie Kirk's funeral, which by the way, just
16:04
completely knocked it out of the park, sharing the gospel when,
16:08
when he mentioned that, that Charlie's not in heaven because
16:11
he sacrificed himself for Jesus, but it's because, you know, his
16:15
savior sacrificed himself for Charlie Kirk.
16:18
I thought that was great. Frank Turek is another
16:20
apologetics guy that I, I follow.
16:22
I listen to you, Stewart, connectedly, these guys.
16:26
My next question is how can the average church member be
16:30
equipped to defend their faith in everyday conversations?
16:35
Great question and listen, I commend you.
16:37
I have so much respect for you, Brett, being a, a, a worldview
16:41
ish pastor, and we need that. And you're a shepherd of a flock
16:46
and you preach the word so faithfully and you bring in
16:50
apologetics, which is the the evidence.
16:53
And let me just I want to get to your question, but let me just
16:56
say apologetics is not apologizing.
17:00
It's not saying, oh, I'm sorry, you know, please like me anyway,
17:03
I'm a Christian. No, but like in verses, like
17:06
first Peter 315 says, be ready always to give an answer to
17:11
everyone who asks a reason for the hope that you have.
17:15
So when the word apologia it, it means a defense.
17:20
In other words, if somebody says well how do we know God is real?
17:23
Or how do we know that the Bible is true?
17:25
Or how do we know Jesus really rose from the dead?
17:28
Or why is there pain and suffering is is not God going to
17:32
fix this broken world? Apologetics is giving an answer
17:38
on why we should believe in Jesus.
17:41
Now, for me, Brett, I was a college student.
17:45
I got saved at age 21. I knew my buddies were lost and
17:51
I just begin to read my Bible. And I was in my own awkward way.
17:55
It was pretty clunky and not pretty, but I was trying to get
17:59
my my buddies saved. They were lost and they had some
18:03
questions. So I went to a Christian
18:05
bookstore. I'd never been to a Christian
18:07
bookstore that I recall. And I asked the guy, I said,
18:11
hey, are there any books on how to answer really hard questions?
18:17
OK, I could have bought heresy and I would not have known the
18:20
difference. I mean, I knew nothing, but in
18:22
the sovereignty of God, the man handed me two books and I bought
18:27
these books More than a Carpenter by Josh McDowell and
18:31
Evidence that demands A verdict. And I begin to read and what
18:35
just kind of really gripped me, I'm 21, I've been a Christian,
18:40
less than a week actually, But there's all this evidence.
18:44
Oh my goodness, history, archaeology, the manuscripts of
18:48
the Bible have been preserved. Some of the most brilliant
18:51
people throughout history have looked at the evidence and
18:55
become Christ followers. So folks, what I would say to
18:58
Brett's question, you can get into being a defender of the
19:03
faith, first of all, by knowing God's Word and reading the
19:07
Bible. And you must if you're going to
19:11
be a representative for the gospel, and we're all called to
19:14
do this. First of all, you need to make
19:16
sure that you are saved. I joined the church when I was
19:20
13, filled out a card. That's what the man in Sunday
19:24
school told me to do. I, I joined the church when I
19:27
was 13. I found Jesus when I was 21.
19:30
Christianity goes a lot better when you're a Christian.
19:34
I found that out. You know, suddenly the Bible was
19:37
really interesting. And so #1 folks, make sure that
19:42
there's been that moment when you put your faith in Jesus and
19:46
we're saved. Then read the Bible.
19:48
I love to recommend that people read the Gospel of Mark.
19:52
It's very short, just 16 chapters, and you could
19:55
literally read the Gospel of Mark in 30 to 45 minutes.
20:00
Read the Gospel of John, 21 chapters.
20:04
But then I'll tell you another really good one is the book of
20:08
Colossians. Colossians is a New Testament
20:12
book 4 little chapters. I mean, you literally could read
20:16
Colossians in 15 minutes and it is so power packed with truth
20:22
about the Lord Jesus and I I really think the the first step
20:27
to becoming do this folks present, explain, defend.
20:34
You could present the gospel. You could explain the gospel and
20:39
if need be even defend the gospel.
20:41
Step one is to really be very familiar with the Bible itself.
20:47
Now there's a lot more of books and authors that I want to speak
20:50
of, but Brett, don't you agree? Step one to being a thriving
20:55
disciple is that you got to be in the Word.
21:00
Absolutely you, you definitely have to have a love for the word
21:03
of God. You got to be in the word of God
21:05
because faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
21:09
Now it it's interesting that we're talking about this and I
21:12
was just out in my truck listening to you and Stevens
21:16
program in the parking lot and today was Apologetics Day.
21:19
You're answering questions. I thought that was really neat.
21:22
I want to tell you a little bit about our podcast.
21:24
Our podcast is called the Four Freedom Podcast and it it exists
21:29
to bring the message of Galatians 51 to those in the
21:32
body of Christ who've been trapped and legalism.
21:35
Me and my Co host, we have a fundamentalist background.
21:39
And so we we address a lot of abuse and things like that.
21:44
We want to expose legalism. We want to encourage people to
21:49
grow in God's grace and you know, for freedom crisis set us
21:54
free. So my question is, and our
21:56
culture today, there's a word that that's thrown around and
21:59
it's this word freedom. It it gets used in many
22:03
different ways. And from a biblical standpoint,
22:07
how would you define true freedom?
22:10
Great question, great question. And let me say I I, I believe
22:16
legalism has probably driven away more people from church
22:21
than all the philosophers combined really.
22:25
And, and I believe in discipleship and holiness and
22:28
living for Jesus, but not legalism because legalism is
22:32
performance based. And really I the church where I
22:37
got saved back in North Carolina, although I didn't know
22:41
the word Brett, but it tended toward legalism, you know, And
22:46
you know, when they knew that I had The Beach Boys on my
22:51
cassette player in my car, The pastor gave me a talking to.
22:56
But I I was praying about things and you.
22:58
That sounds so harmless now. Oh my goodness.
23:01
But it was the late 80s. I was a brand new believer and
23:06
I'm very compliant, very respectful of authority.
23:09
But at the same time I, I really prayed about it and I knew that
23:15
some of the great art, literature and music, I could
23:20
acknowledge the beauty in Norman Rockwell's paintings.
23:26
I could acknowledge the artistry in the writings of, of
23:31
Shakespeare and it wasn't necessarily Christian, but it,
23:37
it did come from a worldview that honored truth and beauty.
23:43
And, and let me just say this for a moment, and I want to get
23:46
to, you know, talking about how our freedom works in Christ.
23:52
One of the great things about the church is really from the
23:56
Middle Ages up through the Reformation and certainly
23:59
colonial America, that the church was the Oasis of
24:07
learning, scholarship and the arts.
24:11
In fact, all right, if you've ever seen on a stage, folks,
24:15
what's called a proscenium arch, there's like a, a rounded arch
24:20
above the stage. And then there's, you know, the
24:23
the stage comes out a foot beyond that arch that came out
24:28
of the church because in the Middle Ages were what were
24:31
called morality plays. And they weren't just about
24:34
morals, but they were Bible stories.
24:37
Joseph and his brothers in the coat of many colors, the story
24:41
of Esther in the Old Testament, the story of Ruth and Boaz.
24:45
And it was in the church that really because not everybody
24:51
could even read, but in the Middle Ages and really prior to
24:55
that, the theater emerged as a place to act out Bible stories
25:02
and to tell non readers about Bible stories.
25:08
And they were called morality plays.
25:10
And so the church was an enclave of the arts and Oh my goodness,
25:15
class classical music. Bach, you know, would write SD G
25:21
solo de O Gloria for the glory of God alone.
25:25
All of the great classical music.
25:27
Here's one that'll blow people's minds.
25:29
Canon and D by Johann Pucklebill Puckle Bell's Canon.
25:34
I guarantee every every wedding you've done or almost they play
25:39
Canon and D Do you know what that was?
25:44
That was that was a one time piece to play while they took up
25:50
offering Puckle bell was a chorister at a church.
25:55
He was a choir director. He wrote a throwaway one time 1
25:59
and done instrumental just to play while they took up offering
26:03
one Sunday. Isn't it amazing?
26:06
By the way, 25 years ago when we entered the 21st century, there
26:10
was a big thing in I actually think it would might have been
26:16
Wired magazine, but it was like the 100 most important pieces of
26:21
art, literature and music of the last thousand years.
26:23
Canon in D was listed as one of the most culturally significant
26:29
pieces of music of the last thousand years, and it was
26:33
actually, at the time of its composition, not viewed as
26:37
anything all that special. And yet it's one of the most
26:39
cherished pieces of music the world over.
26:42
Handel's Messiah, The Hallelujah Chorus, the ceiling of the
26:46
Sistine Chapel, Michelangelo's David, Pilgrim's Progress.
26:52
All right, what am I saying here?
26:53
The church was the Oasis of truth, goodness, and beauty, the
27:01
arts. The church absolutely was the
27:06
enclave of learning and literacy in colonial America.
27:11
Now I'm going to get to the question of legalism here in a
27:13
minute, but I got to say something, folks.
27:17
In colonial America, all the schools came out of the church.
27:22
Now why there was there was a law called the old Deluder Satan
27:27
law. Now you say, what does that
27:29
mean? OK, there was a law that
27:31
children must be taught to read. Why?
27:35
So they could read the Bible and thus escaped the clutches of
27:39
that old Deluder Satan. Now why has the church for 20
27:46
centuries been at the forefront of literacy, learning the arts,
27:53
charity, benevolence, hospitals. If you if you look at America
27:58
and I could talk about the rest of the world all over everything
28:03
east of the Mississippi public school systems around 1900 were
28:10
basically wagon routes to the churches in for instance, in my
28:16
home state of North Carolina, the North Carolina public school
28:20
system 125 years ago were the church schools that were
28:24
teaching black and white farm kids all the children teaching
28:29
them to read Why? So they could know their creator
28:33
Jesus Christ. Now, I I went off on that rabbit
28:36
show, Brit, because we in the church don't want to make the
28:41
mistake of squelching the life of the mind and learning.
28:48
And I know we're not supposed to look at or imbibe ungodly stuff.
28:53
Of course there's plenty of filth on the Internet.
28:56
We're not supposed to go there. There's music that is just
29:00
dehumanizing. But really, when the world
29:05
became increasingly dark in the Middle Ages, the light of
29:10
learning and truth was found in the church as we read God's
29:15
Word. And I think it's got to be that
29:17
way again. Look, salvation is putting your
29:20
faith in Jesus, but really there is the life of the disciple.
29:26
And we Christians are, we are to be the conscience of the
29:31
culture. And I really also think,
29:34
frankly, we are the not only the heart and the redemption of the
29:38
culture, but we are the intellect of the culture as
29:41
well. It's happened before, it can
29:43
happen again. And I think the church must be
29:49
calling people to truth and to the stewardship of the mind.
29:54
Amen. Amen.
29:55
I agree with you. I'd like to shift gears for just
29:58
a minute here because as I told my church a couple Sundays ago,
30:03
that something has happened in our country that is kind of kind
30:07
of fundamentally change things for Christians, and that is the
30:12
assassination and the martyrdom of Charlie Kirk.
30:15
And I know that just recently you had a speaking engagement
30:20
with him just a few weeks before he passed.
30:23
And so, how did you first come to know Charlie personally,
30:26
Professionally. Can you walk us through how your
30:30
paths cross and what your first impressions were of him?
30:33
Well, thanks. He, he was a great brother in
30:37
the Lord. And yes, he was a friend and a
30:39
colleague. I began to hear, I don't know,
30:44
19 years ago about this thing Turning Point USA.
30:47
And, you know, I'm, I'm a conservative politically, I'm a
30:52
Christian, but I care about America and I'm a real
30:55
constitutionalist. And you know, I, I really, one
30:59
of the things I teach about in my political science classes,
31:03
I've, I've taught at a number of universities and been adjunct at
31:07
places like Liberty University, North Greenville University,
31:12
Karis Bible College, a number of schools where I've taught.
31:19
I, I care about the Constitution.
31:22
Charlie Kirk used to say this and I thoroughly agree.
31:25
The first most important thing in life is to tell people about
31:28
Jesus. The second most important thing
31:31
in life is to keep it legal, that we can do the first most
31:34
important thing. So I care about America.
31:37
And nine years ago, I guess I began to hear about this
31:41
organization that was Christian and conservative TP USA, Turning
31:47
Point. And then in November of 21, I
31:51
got a call and Charlie wanted me to speak at East Tennessee State
31:56
University in Kingsport, TN, which I said sure.
32:00
And he said, give give a talk about the Constitution, which I
32:04
was happy to do. And he said, hey, I got to warn
32:06
you there might be some protesters.
32:08
I said, no worries, we've had that before.
32:11
And so I know how to, I think I know how to be a gentleman and
32:15
do that. And then just over the last
32:18
really five years, I mean, his stock has just gone vertical.
32:23
We spoke in the summer of 24 for the teenagers whose parents were
32:30
delegates at the RNC convention, at the Republican convention,
32:34
was in Milwaukee. And for two days, Charlie Kirk
32:39
and I taught biblical worldview. And I'll tell you what impressed
32:43
me because I was with him a lot. I mean, he was a political
32:48
animal and he knew his knowledge of economics, the Constitution,
32:55
just he was highly, highly informed and conversant on so
33:01
many topics. But as we were in front of 275
33:04
teenagers, it was all about discipleship.
33:08
And he was as good as any youth pastor I was ever with.
33:13
And I was like, wow, man, this guy is for real.
33:16
And he talked about on Friday night, cut off the phone, be
33:21
with wife and family and don't cut that phone back again on
33:25
till Sunday night or Monday morning.
33:28
And I mean, he really, really meant that.
33:29
In fact, Charlie would reprimand me.
33:31
He said you're on the phone too much and it was convicting.
33:36
This was a man that was utterly 1000% committed to Jesus,
33:42
committed to his spouse and family.
33:45
And so we begin to book him for 2025 and it it's funny, he came.
33:52
We did a, a series called conversations that matter.
33:56
And I'm just very grateful. We we do 7 youth camps a year,
34:00
1200 kids conferences, First Baptist.
34:04
Carthage is one of our supporting churches.
34:07
I'm really kind of a missionary. I'm one of their missionaries.
34:11
But in this speaker series, I asked Charlie if he would come.
34:15
He and I spoke at an event in October of last fall.
34:19
We're backstage for a couple of hours.
34:20
We prayed together and I said, please, may I have one day of
34:24
your calendar in 2025? And he said yes.
34:28
He said if Donald Trump wins, things are going to get really
34:32
busy for me. He said, so call me on January
34:35
1st. I said OK, so January 1st at
34:39
12:30 PMI called him and here's the kind of man he was.
34:45
First of all, we said OK, Saturday night, October 23rd.
34:50
Then he said well how about Friday night, October 22nd?
34:52
And he said look, I I've got to be home for my daughter's third
34:56
birthday. How about Thursday night, August
34:59
21? I said deal.
35:02
We had people come from 17 States and it was great.
35:07
Charlie spoke. We did over an hour of Q&A.
35:10
The The funny thing, Brett, though not funny, but just
35:13
ironic, There were some protesters and we had 24
35:19
policemen on site. All right, I rented the largest
35:23
venue in the Myrtle Beach area. Myrtle Beach is like Branson,
35:27
MO. They're all these theaters.
35:29
And we've had in Dinesh D'souza and Frank Turek and EW Jackson.
35:35
And we've had in Gary Chapman, who wrote the five love
35:38
languages, Lauren Green of Fox News, lot of speakers.
35:42
Jenna Ellis. I rented this theater.
35:47
Our event was August 21. As early as June, people were
35:53
calling protesting, saying Charlie Kirk is hateful, Charlie
35:56
Kirk is a bigot. And the Alabama theater called
35:59
me. They were like, hey, we've
36:01
rented you the theater in August.
36:03
Who in the world is this guy people are calling threatening
36:07
our So we had, by the way, after Charlie was shot, we submitted
36:11
our security Cam footage to the FBI people from 17 states.
36:16
And yes, there were a couple of people that came from Utah.
36:20
We gave our footage to the FBII don't know.
36:25
Anyway, so Charlie comes, it was great.
36:29
It was a fantastic, he spoke, it was very inspiring.
36:33
We love America. America is a gift from God.
36:36
He got multiple standing ovations, but it was
36:39
interesting. During the Q&A, Charlie said,
36:45
look, we've got to defend our nation.
36:49
Pastors, parents, young people. If somebody shoots me and kills
36:52
me or shoots Alex, that's just an occupational hazard.
36:58
As a Christian, Christ laid down his life for us.
37:02
We lay down our life for the gospel.
37:04
And if something happens to me, we cannot be silent.
37:09
Little did we know, none of us could have known that about 13
37:15
to 14 days later, exactly what he alluded to happened to him.
37:23
Brett, I'll tell you this. I'll throw it back to you.
37:24
I was going on AFR radio and Bert Harper and I were going on
37:29
exploring the word and I got news that Charlie had been shot.
37:33
We open the show with prayer and I got a text from a friend of
37:40
the president, a friend of mine back in North Carolina who's
37:44
pretty big in the Republican Party and on Fox News.
37:48
It said he is in critical but stable condition.
37:51
And I guess they didn't want to go live with this till they had
37:55
notified his wife. But about 15 minutes before it
37:58
was on the national airwaves, we had a text from the White House
38:02
that Charlie Kirk had passed. And I'm on live radio and try
38:09
not to cry. And I was just thinking, 2 1/2
38:12
weeks ago, I was with this guy all day.
38:14
I mean, we prayed together. We share the gospel with
38:18
teenagers together. And you know, there's this old
38:22
saying, it goes way back in church history that every
38:26
believer at a moment's notice should be ready to preach, pray
38:30
or die. God forbid, Heaven forbid
38:34
somebody could walk in your sanctuary.
38:36
Heaven forbid somebody could walk in First Baptist Carthage,
38:40
somebody could walk. One of our events.
38:43
We had a bomb threat one time, had to evacuate the building.
38:46
So we're living in a world where every Christian, I don't want to
38:51
be morbid or anything, but the witness of the gospel, it is
38:56
costly. And that cost just might be our
38:59
lives. You know, when you think about
39:02
Charlie and what he's done and what he did while he was here,
39:07
there's a large shift of young conservatives growing in number.
39:14
And a lot of that has to do with Charlie and his reach and what
39:19
he was doing. And so I want to ask you, how do
39:24
you see the role of of Christian leaders, pastors, apologists in
39:29
the wake of Charlie's passing? How should they engage culture,
39:34
politics through suit seeking that honors the example that he
39:39
put forth? Great, Great question.
39:44
And we should, I mean, you said he's a martyr.
39:46
I thoroughly agree. He really is.
39:49
And I, I just think that we need for one thing, people are
39:53
spiritually hungry, people are afraid, people are fearful.
39:58
Let me give you 2 little vignettes our our summer camps
40:02
we've done for 27 years now. That have just grown and grown
40:07
and grown just to tell you if young people are spiritually
40:10
hungry. The last camp we did was in
40:13
August in upstate New Jersey, right on the New Jersey, New
40:18
York line. It's camp we've rented twice now
40:21
called Shiloh Christian camp can sleep 130.
40:26
And we, we do all the fun camp stuff.
40:28
We, you know, hike and roast marshmallows.
40:31
But it's biblical worldview, our camps or bred or, you know,
40:34
pretty deep discipleship. So they called and they said, we
40:38
have 20 teens. And we said we're, we're full.
40:41
And they said, well, can we bring tents?
40:43
We'll sleep in tents. And I was like, let me ask, All
40:48
right. So we were at 130 capacity and
40:51
we had 20 more teens and their youth leaders that were willing
40:56
to come. They didn't get in cabins or
40:58
dorms. They slept in tents outdoors.
41:03
It was August. It was OK.
41:05
But I mean, kids are hungry. And so I I think we need to
41:09
maximize on that. But the other thing is this,
41:14
though that yeah, it it shows that the only tool in the
41:22
toolkit of the angry, unbelieving world is is really
41:28
violence. I do think we have to pray and
41:33
pray for the Holy Spirit to restrain evil.
41:36
But the answer is really, and we have to be in it for the long
41:41
haul, is that more and more people get converted to
41:44
Christianity. By the way, let me say this.
41:47
Even Richard Dawkins, he's an atheist, and he and I have
41:51
emailed back and forth. 20 years ago, I was trying to get him to
41:55
debate a Christian. Richard Dawkins is certainly no
41:58
friend of Christianity necessarily.
42:02
But about a year ago, suddenly the panic button went off in
42:07
Great Britain. That's becoming more and more
42:09
Islamic. And he said it was Easter
42:12
morning. And he said, no, this is this is
42:14
one of the world's preeminent atheist.
42:16
And even Richard Dawkins said I was used to hearing the church
42:20
bells on Easter morning and he said it's Easter morning and no
42:25
one is going to church. But I'm hearing the the squawk
42:28
of the minarets of the Islamic five time a day called prayer.
42:33
And he realized, he said, in the empty space created by the
42:39
abandonment of Christianity, it's not just neutral.
42:43
It's not just some sort of neutral secularism.
42:47
What's come into that has become vicious, deadly secularism and
42:53
vicious, oppressive Islam. Now, in the vacuum created by
42:58
the retreat of Christianity, we've got drug overdoses and
43:02
violence and suicide, the hopelessness of a life without
43:08
any meaning or purpose or foundation.
43:10
Secularism is cultural suicide. And or then you've got the other
43:15
extreme, the iron fist of Sharia law.
43:19
And suddenly last Easter, Richard Dawkins, arch atheist,
43:24
is saying please Christianity come back because the two
43:29
options, the two abyss before Britain in the aftermath of
43:35
Christianity, either the the iron fist of communism and
43:40
secularism, the iron sword of Sharia.
43:44
Maybe Christianity that was a restraining force.
43:49
Maybe Christianity wasn't so bad either.
43:51
But I got to tell you this. We're in Georgia at one of our
43:54
camps June of this year, Brett, and we share the gospel, we talk
44:01
about biblical worldview, we do Q&A and sometimes the open
44:05
forum. Q&A's can last two hours.
44:07
It's really a blast. So all these high school
44:09
seniors, I'm sitting on a stage with a couple of my colleagues,
44:14
100 kids come forward and it's free time.
44:17
You can go play ping pong, go eat ice cream, free time.
44:22
And yet, you know, 3/4 of the camp wants to come and hang
44:26
around. And this girl raised her hand.
44:29
She goes. I said, yeah, do you have a
44:31
question? She goes, I'm, I'm afraid.
44:36
And I said afraid of what? She goes, I don't know.
44:40
Just I'm, I'm afraid. And like, I'm watching all these
44:43
kids kind of nod in agreement. I said, how many?
44:46
You're like anxious. You're just kind of like
44:50
paranoid. It was like, all these kids.
44:53
Now, what am I saying? Well, the Bible says perfect
44:56
love casts out fear. But I will say on the 30 and
45:03
younger middle schoolers that are just very alert to young
45:09
adults, there's just this fear. They can't quite put their
45:12
finger on it well, but they somehow instinctively understand
45:17
that we're a culture that's lost its way.
45:20
Now we, the church, we can tell people about the solid
45:24
foundation and the security that we have in Christ, but there is
45:28
just this fear about life. The other thing is this, and
45:34
this is encouraging, guess what? The number one question that we
45:39
get from young men is, and we can thank Charlie for part of
45:43
this. And and Brett, I was youth
45:46
pastor for 11 years. I've been doing all this
45:48
apologetics for 25 or 7 years. I've gotten all kind of
45:54
questions. Where did the Bible come from?
45:57
If God made everything, who made God?
45:59
Yeah, guess what question we're getting?
46:02
How can I find a Good Wife all summer of 24, all through the
46:09
summer of 25? And we keep volumes of data.
46:13
We have surveys of more than a quarter million teens in the
46:18
last quarter century. OK boys, teenagers, high
46:24
schoolers, young 20 somethings. I got this question 2 days ago.
46:28
I was here with Steven Evans and a young man on our website.
46:32
They're like that. They, they somehow want the
46:36
family that they never had growing up.
46:40
They, they know a godly woman is a good thing.
46:45
The number one question in the last 12 months that we're
46:48
getting from males is how, what do I look for in a wife and how
46:52
can I find a wife now? I'm very blessed.
46:55
I have a wife named Angie. We've been married for 36 years
47:00
and I talk a lot about Angie and a guy I was at one of our camps
47:04
and he he was a counselor and he was a college student.
47:08
And he said, how did you find Angie and how did you all
47:12
succeed? And I don't mean to get us off
47:14
track, but my point is in churches and in our discipleship
47:20
and pastors, I think we need to affirm and champion marriage who
47:27
so find that the wife finds a good thing.
47:30
And I tell these, these guys, look, the second greatest gift
47:33
God will ever give you, second only to salvation, the second
47:37
greatest gift God ever gives a Christian man is a godly wife.
47:41
And I think we need to affirm the ethic of family.
47:46
Jordan Peterson, the Canadian psychologist, he says you want
47:50
to save the Western world and fulfill the Great Commission,
47:54
get married, stay married, have babies, raise your kids to love
47:58
Christ. And by the way, I've got an
48:02
article in my laptop from Psychology Today.
48:07
It is not a preacher. It's not a Christian magazine.
48:11
University of Southern California at Santa Barbara
48:15
volumes of data says if you get married, get married, stay
48:21
married, you're more likely to be emotionally happy, more
48:26
likely to be financially successful, less likely to ever
48:30
get hooked on substances, less likely to ever get robbed.
48:36
Oddly enough, get married, stay married less likely to ever be
48:41
in a car accident. I mean it's just crazy.
48:44
And this article says, and this was a 10 year study of of like
48:50
thousands of people and it says marriage convey this is a
48:56
verbatim quote. Marriage conveys a host of
49:00
societal good on us and at least 10 years longer of life.
49:07
So here's the and that's James Dobson or any of us would Amen
49:13
this. But Psychology Today is saying
49:16
if you want to thrive as a human, probably be more
49:20
financially successful and over the long pool be healthier,
49:24
outlive your counterparts by ten years or more.
49:28
The secret is marriage and family.
49:31
Amen, brother. I agree with you.
49:32
And you know, when you were talking about Richard Dawkins,
49:35
this is the thought that popped in my head.
49:38
You've got the most preeminent atheist in the world today, the
49:42
man that wrote that wrote the book called The God Delusion.
49:46
He comes on national TV, claims to be cultural Christian because
49:51
even he sees that Christianity is the salt and light of the
49:55
earth. And so I always thought that's a
49:57
great testimony. Well, Alex, I've got one final
50:00
question for you as it we live in divided and difficult times.
50:07
So how can the church and the Christian community support that
50:11
next generation of leaders that are coming up in the mold of
50:15
what Charlie sought to build? Wow, great question.
50:21
I love history. I love the church.
50:25
I really do. I've been so blessed, Brett to I
50:29
give God the glory, but we've had an interesting journey like
50:34
2200 churches in 27 years. You know, it's been and I, I
50:40
jokingly, I tell people I I've been in churches where they
50:43
sleep in the pews. I've been in churches where they
50:46
jump over the pews. It's all good.
50:49
But listen to this. I was up in, in Michigan and I,
50:52
I, I love cars. I'm a real car guy.
50:55
So I was near Detroit or Dearborn, MI.
50:59
So I thought, I'm going to take my rental car and try to find
51:01
out where Ford Motors is, and I did.
51:04
And there's factories. OK, I was turning this corner
51:08
and there's like this glass display and there's a Ford
51:13
Thunderbird and some old Mustangs and there's AGT 40 and
51:17
a Shelby Cobra. So in this like glass showcase
51:23
at this particular corner were some of the classics and there
51:28
was a museum. But then you drive past the
51:32
factory where they create the new models and there's I mean,
51:35
it takes 1/2 hour to drive past. It takes one second to drive
51:40
past the the showroom where they showcase the classics and then
51:46
to drive past the ones where they go and create the new cars
51:50
factories for endless miles. Now here's my point.
51:55
Clearly their resources and energy are invested in creating
52:01
the new models in the church. We've got that upside down.
52:06
I mean I I've been in churches with two and $3,000,000 annual
52:10
budgets and the youth are in one corner of the basement with a
52:15
part time youth pastor and zero budget.
52:18
I love my elders, but church we got to do like Ford, at least in
52:25
this regard. Thank God for the Christians
52:27
that have been around for decades.
52:29
I, I respect that all day long, but we got to put our resources
52:35
in reaching the lost and the young people and you need to
52:40
hire the best staff members and volunteers to be in your youth
52:46
ministry, children's ministry. For one thing, I love Ken Ham.
52:50
He's a long time friend. He's got a curriculum called the
52:54
seven seas of Creation and, and it can start in the nursery.
53:00
And folks, I got to tell you, if you think that giving a Bible to
53:05
your graduating seniors the first Sunday of June and they're
53:09
on their way out the door. Half these seniors haven't even
53:11
been in church in two years and they come on graduation Sunday
53:16
and they March in and they're cap and gown and you give them a
53:20
NIV study Bible. Look, that's that's not enough.
53:25
And I want to challenge the churches, teach the word of God,
53:29
teach biblical worldview and set the bar of discipleship higher,
53:34
not lower. By the way, participation is is
53:40
a privilege, not a right. If you're going to take the kids
53:43
to Fuge or our camp, there needs to be some standards they meet
53:48
up to. And youth group is not just
53:51
pizza, paintball and Pepsi. I mean, it is you are entering a
53:57
relationship with Almighty God. And yeah, I love the simple
54:03
Bible stories, but we have to be straight with our kids.
54:07
And I'll say this, I'll throw it back to you, Brett.
54:10
We stretch our youth in a lot of ways, athletically,
54:15
academically, go out for the team, National Honor Society.
54:20
I don't think we stretch them spiritually enough.
54:23
We water it down. Kids are smart.
54:26
Read the Bible, have them read, teach them leadership, delegate,
54:32
have them call Sunday school to order and and delegate
54:38
responsibilities. And also we do Christian clubs
54:43
after school. But I think we have to
54:45
understand that our job as adult Christians is to be passing that
54:51
baton to the next Christians. Book Frank Turk to come to your
54:55
city. Book me book Lucas Miles, book
54:59
Sean McDowell there. There's some Jenna Ellis, she's
55:04
brilliant. She's an incredible worldview
55:06
speaker. But in in your weekly rhythm of
55:10
church life and certainly throughout the calendar year,
55:14
Christian camp in the summer. But let's do our utmost so that
55:19
graduation from high school is not graduation away from God.
55:23
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord Will.
55:24
I'll tell you I have enjoyed our time together this week.
55:28
We're we've got a crusade fact we're about to go over and do
55:31
our last night of the crusade. And you know, I remember when it
55:35
kind of worked at we've been planning this crusade for over a
55:38
year and kind of fell to me to be in charge of it and over it
55:43
when I've never actually been to a crusade before.
55:47
This is my first one but I have. Wouldn't have done well.
55:50
I haven't. I would.
55:51
I wouldn't give anything for it. I've enjoyed meeting you, being
55:55
with you, and with that said, I think me and you have one Last
55:59
Crusade meeting to get to. Yeah, and time, Please wait.
56:02
This is such a blessing. I appreciate you, Brett.
56:05
And you know, it's great to be your friend.
56:08
And I'm, I'm very honored to be on your podcast.
56:11
Amen. Well, for everyone else, we'll
56:13
see you guys later. Remember, to God, not the
56:16
pastor, be the glory. Found my new name.
56:21
Found that good grace, found that healing, and the tears fell
56:26
down my face when I found my beginning that has no ending.
56:30
I found that second chance. Found my best friend, found my
56:32
forgiveness, found my happiness. I've been singing ever since,
56:35
turned by my feet on me. Thanks for listening to the Four
56:52
Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do
56:55
us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our
56:59
podcast on whichever podcast platform you use.
57:02
Be sure to join us next time for The Four Freedom Podcast.