Latest / Coffee People Podcast / Roast! - Coffee Smarter: Roast Profiles and Brewing Methods

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Roast! - Coffee Smarter: Roast Profiles and Brewing Methods · Coffee People Podcast

• 0:00
  Good morning and welcome back to the roast West Coast coffee
• 0:17
  podcast. I'm your host, Ryan Walton.
• 0:19
  Today, I'm getting a little bit coffee smarter by asking, one of
• 0:22
  our resident coffee, experts about dialing in roasts and at
• 0:26
  home, brewing methods, one of my favorite people to talk to not
• 0:29
  just on the Show but in the world Siri simran Khalsa, the
• 0:33
  executive director of lofty coffee is back to drop some
• 0:37
  knowledge on us. All lofty.
• 0:39
  Coffee opened a new Cafe and Carlsbad California.
• 0:41
  This year I know I've mentioned it on the show and I finally
• 0:44
  made it over for a cup of coffee just the other day it's a great
• 0:48
  open air space which is important to me is I'm still
• 0:50
  limiting my going-out interactions to to covid.
• 0:52
  I've been vaccinated, but I figure if the outdoor open-air
• 0:57
  spots are there. This is California and they are.
• 1:00
  Are serving good coffee. Then why not help stop the
• 1:03
  spread as long as possible? I buy a lot of coffee from a lot
• 1:06
  of different rose trees including lofty, but there are
• 1:09
  so many variables to consider when Brewing at home, like the
• 1:12
  coffee to water ratio, the Brewing method, the grind size,
• 1:16
  sometimes it feels like, I'm not maximizing my cups of coffee and
• 1:19
  by the time I figure out what tastes best, there's only like a
• 1:22
  cup or two left in the bag, which can be really frustrating.
• 1:25
  It's been a few weeks in Syria has been on the show so I'm glad
• 1:28
  she's here to tackle this with me today.
• 1:30
  She's going to use a term in our upcoming conversation that I
• 1:33
  wanted to find for anyone who hasn't worked in.
• 1:35
  Hospitality the term par or par stock refers to the level of
• 1:39
  supplies needed. Be they ingredients or soap or
• 1:43
  regs or cans of cold brew to meet the demands of operation
• 1:47
  when I was managing restaurants at often think in terms of daily
• 1:49
  weekly and monthly pars depending on which products I
• 1:52
  was ordering. I often had a minimum par and
• 1:55
  then as the sales or usage, went up or down, I'd have to adjust.
• 2:00
  The bigger a food and drink operation is be at a busy
• 2:02
  restaurant or a chain of coffee shops.
• 2:05
  The more fluctuations in, par stock can be absorbed into a
• 2:08
  budget, but for a very small business or a one-off business
• 2:12
  often correctly, managing Park can be a true determining factor
• 2:15
  of success by preventing waste and by extension helping, manage
• 2:19
  their budget, enabling the staff to have proper supplies and be
• 2:23
  able to best serve, the customer, Fresh Products,
• 2:25
  consistently. So par is important.
• 2:28
  Also important is that while you're listening today, you take
• 2:31
  a moment to follow at roast West Coast on Instagram.
• 2:35
  I'm just kidding. It's not that important, but I'd
• 2:37
  certainly appreciate it. If you did, you'll also find
• 2:40
  links to this podcast coffee newsletter on roast
• 2:43
  westcoast.com. And if you've been enjoying the
• 2:46
  show, please consider subscribing or buying us a cup
• 2:48
  of coffee to help us continue, providing this coffee content,
• 2:52
  I'd be very cool of you to do today right now.
• 2:55
  I hope your coffee mug is full because it's I'm for today's
• 2:59
  coffee smarter session on the roast West Coast podcast.
• 3:20
  Hey Siri welcome back to roast West Coast second time that we
• 3:26
  are talking this season and I'm excited that you're back.
• 3:29
  Thank you so much for having me back this week.
• 3:32
  We are going to jump right into questions and then I want to
• 3:35
  talk to you about creating grind profiles and dialing in roasts
• 3:42
  and I'm going to kind of Last week, you know, last week, I
• 3:45
  suppose, a few weeks ago now. But you were talking about
• 3:48
  shipping and how you guys store at lofty, you have a warehouse
• 3:51
  in the Bay area where you have green coffee, kind of waiting,
• 3:55
  when that green coffee comes to you at the roasting facility and
• 3:59
  lofty. Encinitas.
• 4:01
  And you are seeing it for the first time and you're smelling
• 4:04
  it and you're kind of getting an idea of if it matches what you
• 4:06
  thought you were buying because that's not always quite the
• 4:09
  same. How do you start dialing in how
• 4:12
  you're going to roll? Oh, Stu this coffee.
• 4:14
  Yeah. So you get like the most out of
• 4:16
  it. Yeah, I love.
• 4:18
  I'm so happy with this question because this is what I've been
• 4:20
  doing all week actually, so I'm sure all sorts of Roasters have
• 4:27
  different approaches to it. But my Approach is first of all,
• 4:31
  the coffee's that we Source, we do have an intended use for it.
• 4:36
  So for example, we'll get our complete different components
• 4:40
  for our espresso blend. So we I know that this coffee is
• 4:44
  going to be used for espresso and we have an ideal flavor
• 4:48
  profile in mind or we have some single origin offerings that we
• 4:52
  know are going to be featured at least on our menu as a
• 4:55
  pour-over. So, filtered coffee.
• 4:58
  So I usually, when we get coffee in the intended, use is already
• 5:04
  predetermined, but when it comes to actually getting the most out
• 5:10
  of the coffee, what I do is I I'll depending on the time.
• 5:15
  And in this situation we have because we were so delayed on
• 5:23
  the arrival of these coffees, we need to like get them on the
• 5:26
  shelves as soon as possible. So, potentially, what I'll do is
• 5:29
  at this point, I've already received pre ship samples and
• 5:33
  arrival sample. So I've already done sample
• 5:36
  roast and kind of know what the flavor profile of the coffee is.
• 5:40
  So now I need to profile it and Then in for production roast on
• 5:46
  the bigger production, roaster, and my Approach is, what I'll do
• 5:50
  is going off of where the coffees from the coffee's
• 5:56
  density. The coffee's moisture content.
• 6:00
  The coffee's, the way that the coffee's been processed, I'll
• 6:04
  have a predetermined idea of the ideal temperature and batch size
• 6:10
  for the coffee going into the roaster.
• 6:12
  So I'll art there. And usually, for the first roast
• 6:15
  of a coffee, I kind of allow it to take on heat the way that it
• 6:21
  naturally does. Again, it might be the first
• 6:22
  time. I'm roasting those coffee on
• 6:24
  this production roaster. So kind of seen how the coffee
• 6:29
  takes on the heat and I'll do that.
• 6:33
  I'll roast it through the drying phase, it's caramelisation my
• 6:37
  large phase into development and depending on where the coffee
• 6:41
  hits first crack, I will then determine a n temperature that's
• 6:48
  typically going to be a little bit darker or a little bit
• 6:53
  higher temp than what I actually want the coffee to be at.
• 6:57
  But by doing this throughout the development, phase in the roast,
• 7:00
  I'll pull out samples directly from The Roaster at different
• 7:04
  temperatures. So that after the next day after
• 7:08
  the roast, I can cut up all these different samples from the
• 7:12
  exact. Same roast at different
• 7:14
  temperatures and different times throughout that development
• 7:17
  phase and through that, I can really identify where at what
• 7:22
  temperature am I getting the most?
• 7:24
  Sweetness at what time. Am I getting the most out of the
• 7:29
  texture and body of this coffee? And this is not a perfect way of
• 7:33
  doing it. Because, you know, you might
• 7:34
  like one temperature, but then the one at a higher temperature
• 7:38
  but a longer time might have some qualities.
• 7:39
  So, actually from there I'll be like, OK, at this, Temperature,
• 7:44
  I'm getting these really sweet Blackberry flavors but at this
• 7:49
  higher temperature, the body is really smooth and silky.
• 7:53
  So what I might do is I might on the next roast, alter the roast
• 7:58
  and have it at this lower temperature, but at a longer
• 8:02
  time and then furthermore kind of through the roast and be able
• 8:07
  to see, you know, I maybe need to actually shorten the
• 8:11
  caramelization face. As or maybe I need to apply the
• 8:14
  heat at the beginning a little bit differently.
• 8:17
  So off of that first roast, I'm learning a lot about how the
• 8:20
  coffee roasts and where it tastes the best.
• 8:23
  Actually here we are on a Saturday and next Monday, I'm
• 8:28
  going to be I've cut already on Friday.
• 8:31
  I kept some of these coffees that I'm profiling and on Monday
• 8:35
  we're going to actually roast them to their fullest potential.
• 8:39
  Another great thing about pulling samples throughout the
• 8:41
  roast is You can start to see where the coffee is, maybe
• 8:45
  tasting underdeveloped. So you're like, okay I'm going
• 8:48
  to try not to go this low on this temperature or definitely
• 8:52
  make sure that we're roasting longer because at this time and
• 8:56
  temperature, we're getting these underdeveloped flavors and then
• 8:59
  vice versa. If I because on that roast I'm
• 9:01
  taking it a little bit longer. I can see that okay, at this
• 9:04
  temperature and this time is, when we're starting to get some
• 9:07
  diminished sweetness or like roasty flavors.
• 9:11
  So I know that I don't want to take it that far.
• 9:13
  Either. So again that first rose, I'm
• 9:15
  learning a lot about where the potential of this coffee.
• 9:19
  And then, from there, I'll tweak it.
• 9:21
  You said something. That was really interesting to
• 9:23
  me. So I came out of college as a
• 9:28
  photographer and something that you learn when you learn about
• 9:31
  film photography. Is this concept of bracketing
• 9:34
  where you essentially say? I think I know what the right.
• 9:37
  Exposure is the right aperture the right time, but I'm going to
• 9:41
  bracket it. So when I press that, Button to
• 9:43
  take a picture. It actually takes three
• 9:45
  pictures. It takes that one that I set
• 9:47
  for, and it also takes one where, maybe the time is a
• 9:50
  little bit longer and the aperture is a little bit
• 9:52
  narrower or it's a little bit wider and a little bit shorter
• 9:56
  and you kind of get then you compare all three and say okay,
• 9:59
  which one of these seams closest to what?
• 10:01
  I thought it would be and then you dial it in from there.
• 10:04
  So, that's a concept that kind of goes across art forms, to
• 10:07
  some extent roasting as an art form.
• 10:10
  Totally, and I had a question from way back, At the beginning,
• 10:13
  you said something about batch size in your roaster and I guess
• 10:17
  I just kind of assumed that you would just put in the most beans
• 10:21
  that you possibly could. Are you saying that some coffees
• 10:25
  might roast better? If you only have so many
• 10:28
  kilograms or so many grams of coffee versus more or that how
• 10:33
  many beans are in that that Hopper so to speak, actually
• 10:37
  impacts what it tastes like at the end?
• 10:39
  Totally, that's a great question.
• 10:41
  So first of all, Let's just speak to batch size and, you
• 10:45
  know, in this profile in Phase. This is not going to be as might
• 10:50
  not be the case, but in production roasting at least how
• 10:54
  we do it. A lofty is, we're actually only
• 10:57
  roasting, we are roasting to a certain par so we're not going
• 11:02
  to be roasting the same amount of coffee every day.
• 11:04
  We evaluate how much coffee we haven't stuck.
• 11:07
  Our current usage in our Cafe and our wholesale.
• 11:10
  How much online sales were doing?
• 11:13
  And from there, we kind of calculate.
• 11:14
  Okay, we need to remove this much coffee today and we do this
• 11:18
  to reduce waste so that we're not just like roasting coffee
• 11:23
  and then we're like, oh we don't need this much coffee.
• 11:25
  So, you know, each row stay looks very different in the
• 11:28
  sense of the amount that were roasting and which coffees were
• 11:31
  roasting depending on our usage. And but then to talk about batch
• 11:36
  size something I've found and I think a lot of you can find this
• 11:40
  online of recommendations, you know, On the current roaster
• 11:45
  that I'm working on. The recommended smallest batch
• 11:49
  size is 6 pounds and the largest recommend about size is 33
• 11:54
  pounds, but I do not think that roasted 33 pounds of roasting.
• 11:58
  The six pounds is you're going to have optimal control or like
• 12:04
  heat transfer because in that super small batch it's just very
• 12:09
  hard to control the the heat that's going into it and then
• 12:12
  base So on the very large batch those although that's like the
• 12:16
  recommended Max Capacity, I'll find that the the coffee will
• 12:22
  not take on the heat as well. So I tried to keep my batch
• 12:26
  sizes in between 40 to 70 percent of the capacity of The
• 12:33
  Roaster. So that's anywhere from like 12
• 12:36
  pounds to like 27 pounds. So typically on a just too,
• 12:42
  because That first or roast that I'm profiling is potentially, it
• 12:48
  might not go the way is plan. And potentially might not be up
• 12:51
  to our standard and be able to serve it.
• 12:53
  I'll do like a 13-2, maybe 20 pound roast depending on the
• 12:59
  coffee and its usage. Because potentially, we might
• 13:02
  actually not put it out into service again because it's we're
• 13:06
  still trying to identify the best use or the best way to
• 13:10
  roast the coffee. So so that takes me The next
• 13:13
  kind of Step of this, which is you are developing this crime
• 13:16
  profile at the shop. I come there I buy a bag of
• 13:20
  coffee and I bring it home. And this is something that I I
• 13:25
  wish Roasters would do as a customer which is put on the
• 13:28
  bag, what type of Brewing process, they think the coffee
• 13:32
  is best for whether it's french press or pour over or machine or
• 13:38
  espresso whatever it is. Yeah, but I find that I'm
• 13:42
  spending a lot of time and kind of in not energy but just a lot
• 13:45
  of coffee dialing in that bag of coffee.
• 13:48
  So what the water ratio is, what if I'm doing it as a friend,
• 13:52
  Press or like, I do french press and pour over at home a lot.
• 13:56
  And some coffees like I'll just be like, man, I don't know why
• 13:59
  this coffee, is Everyone likes it so much or this coffee
• 14:03
  roaster gets graded. Really well or rated really
• 14:06
  well. And then, I'll just switch up,
• 14:08
  how I'm making it in the morning.
• 14:10
  And I'm like, oh my God, this is like the best coffee.
• 14:12
  Like I love, I get it. Yeah, do you have any advice for
• 14:16
  like dialing in that roast at home quicker?
• 14:19
  Or, you know, for people like me who like I want to buy five bags
• 14:23
  of coffee to figure out the watch, the one that I like
• 14:26
  because I want to keep trying different coffees, any advice on
• 14:29
  that front? Or is there a reason why you
• 14:32
  don't see that more often that Roasters, give you a
• 14:34
  recommendation for how to do it at home?
• 14:36
  Yeah, so to speak to the recommendation.
• 14:40
  Actually the last trip that we took to origin, we happen to
• 14:45
  also be visiting some producers with another coffee company and
• 14:51
  that was super cool because You got to kind of share our
• 14:55
  insights around purchasing coffee but then also roasting
• 14:59
  and brewing. And I guess me and the person I
• 15:03
  was traveling with we were discussing how oh, wow, this
• 15:07
  coffee would taste really amazing as Aeropress and the
• 15:14
  other, the other folks they kind of chimed in.
• 15:17
  And they're like, it's really interesting that you speak of it
• 15:20
  in this way because our philosophy Is that like a cop, a
• 15:24
  good coffee, is a good coffee, no matter what Brewing method.
• 15:27
  So to me, that was my I was like, huh?
• 15:31
  That's really interesting because and I think that's their
• 15:34
  approach is that they buy really good coffee and the coffee is
• 15:39
  good and you can Brew it however you want and it'll be good.
• 15:42
  And that's their like thought process around it.
• 15:45
  Where through my experience, I do find.
• 15:48
  Yes. A good coffee, is a good coffee,
• 15:50
  but sometimes if you brew it in a particular way, You get maybe
• 15:54
  the most out of it. What it has to offer?
• 15:57
  For example, we had a Peruvian coffee earlier this year that to
• 16:02
  me what? With the it didn't have these
• 16:06
  like, super Punchy, vibrant flavors, the flavor of the
• 16:10
  coffee was actually very subtle and soft but the texture of the
• 16:15
  coffee was really incredible and just to me like it was like this
• 16:20
  full on sensory experience and through dialing it in and making
• 16:27
  different cups of coffee to me a coffee, like that really shine
• 16:32
  in like a higher ratio, like a 1217 ratio as like a pour-over
• 16:38
  where it was like, just really clean that lot like having a, it
• 16:42
  kind of stretched out really like accentuated that like silky
• 16:47
  smooth texture that it had and, you know, you're not going to
• 16:51
  quite At that same experience if you brewed it as a spresso or as
• 16:56
  a French press. So that's just one thought into
• 17:00
  it. But I did think it was
• 17:01
  interesting and why I think maybe some Roasters, don't
• 17:04
  specify The Brood, the Brewing method is because you don't want
• 17:09
  to make like let's say you are just an average coffee drinker
• 17:14
  and you make a French press. All you have at home is a French
• 17:16
  press but you're in the shop and you're like, I'm looking for a
• 17:20
  bag of coffee, then you look at the side of the bag in there.
• 17:22
  It's just says recommended for espresso and then they're like,
• 17:26
  oh well, I don't really make espresso.
• 17:28
  So I'm just not even gonna buy that bag.
• 17:31
  So potentially at that's kind of where my head goes.
• 17:34
  Where it's you, maybe you're limiting, how certain people are
• 17:38
  going to approach getting that coffee again.
• 17:41
  I do think I recommend as many people to like, try to form
• 17:45
  relationships with their Baristas because, you know,
• 17:48
  maybe it's like, hey, I'm looking at this coffee.
• 17:50
  Like how do you recommend it? How do you brew it here?
• 17:52
  And maybe they can give you some insight outside of, maybe
• 17:56
  they're like, you know, I took it home and I made an arrow
• 17:58
  press with it and it was really good.
• 18:01
  So that's my thought on it whether that's true or not, I
• 18:04
  don't know. Well, my, my tip for people and
• 18:07
  this is what I've been doing is when I go to a new coffee shop
• 18:10
  and I'm going to buy a bag to take home.
• 18:12
  I usually ask what they are Brewing, just for their black,
• 18:15
  drip coffee because that seems to be what I will enjoy the most
• 18:20
  at home. Just At that process, a lot
• 18:23
  easier, totally, especially if I'm just introducing myself to a
• 18:26
  new roaster. If I'm going to a place that
• 18:28
  I've been a bunch of times all experiments a little bit more,
• 18:32
  but that always seems to help Siri.
• 18:34
  I thank you again for being here.
• 18:37
  I'm excited to see you again soon and I hope we get to have a
• 18:41
  cup of coffee again. Yeah, talk soon.
• 18:43
  Thanks for having me. Okay, to recap.
• 18:53
  The process of dialing in a roaster Abreu can be a little
• 18:55
  bit time-consuming and a little bit tedious.
• 18:58
  I'd advise you not to get frustrated because it's hard.
• 19:01
  I say that but I also get frustrated all the time because
• 19:04
  I want every cop, I make to be perfect, which I know isn't
• 19:07
  realistic. I'm not a very good Barista but
• 19:10
  it does make me really appreciate the coffee's that I'm
• 19:12
  getting from the coffee shop. Some things that have worked for
• 19:16
  me. In my own home, brewing include
• 19:18
  buying a decent grinder, immediate difference.
• 19:21
  It doesn't have to be a kajillion dollar one, but a burr
• 19:24
  grinder, instead of a blade grinder, will make an immediate
• 19:26
  noticeable difference to your coffees second.
• 19:30
  I've also gotten a little conservative with the coffee's I
• 19:32
  buy for at home because I'm buying so many of them often.
• 19:35
  I find myself buying the house roast or a bag of coffee that
• 19:38
  The Roaster is using for their drip coffee, the reason being
• 19:42
  because I assume it'll be a little bit more forgiving.
• 19:45
  And a bit more accessible for me to recreate.
• 19:48
  Then I make a point to really try the fun stuff at the shop,
• 19:51
  letting the skill Baristas, get the most flavor out of the cup.
• 19:54
  I drink there. Now, this works for me, but you
• 19:56
  may want to get crazy or have a little more fun at home.
• 19:59
  I go out for coffee quite a bit, so that when I am home, I
• 20:02
  usually just want something, a little more consistent, finally
• 20:06
  asked the roasters or Baristas, they'll probably have some good
• 20:09
  advice on the best Brewing method for the coffee that
• 20:11
  you're buying. I like the idea that a good
• 20:13
  coffee, will be good, no matter. ER, what, which Siri brought up
• 20:16
  on the show, but that doesn't mean that I don't want to turn
• 20:19
  good into great. In the last show, the interview
• 20:23
  with Ruben, Enriquez of order had coffee roasters.
• 20:26
  I mentioned that I had recently gone on a road trip and that I
• 20:28
  had been making stops at roaster.
• 20:30
  He's along the way. What I didn't mention was that
• 20:33
  for the first time in my adult life in part because of my
• 20:36
  conversation with Ruben was that my default coffee order?
• 20:39
  Wasn't a black coffee? No room for cream.
• 20:42
  I decided to mix things up, and I started ordering Cappuccinos
• 20:46
  one. Such cappuccino was made by
• 20:48
  Justin Saigon at bivouac Coffee Roasters in Evergreen Colorado.
• 20:52
  Just west of Denver. Justin seemed like a cool.
• 20:55
  Dude. And my experience, with Justin's
• 20:57
  in the past has always been good and then when I asked him, if he
• 21:00
  had a moment to be on the show, he said absolutely.
• 21:03
  Let's do this. So my question for you, is
• 21:08
  what's your name? Where do you work?
• 21:09
  And why are you still to my coffee every day?
• 21:12
  My name is Justin saggin. I work at bivouac coffee and
• 21:16
  Evergreen, Colorado, and coffee gets me stoked, everyday,
• 21:22
  sharing it with people, the community it creates I love
• 21:25
  talking to people, everybody comes in what's better than
• 21:28
  conversation, over a good cup of joe, you know, So it turns out
• 21:33
  Justin was a cool dude and the coffee drink.
• 21:36
  He made me was excellent. Bivouac, slogan is coffee by
• 21:39
  nature. And in reading about them, they
• 21:42
  put environmentally friendly coffee practices at the
• 21:45
  Forefront of their mission statement.
• 21:46
  Check out their website, bivouac dot coffee, which I'll link to
• 21:50
  in this shows, column on roast westcoast.com to learn more
• 21:54
  about why they exclusively roast naturally processed coffees, and
• 21:58
  why they became a b Corp, which legally obligates them to
• 22:01
  operate with the highest. Environmental and social
• 22:04
  standards possible. You can also follow them on
• 22:06
  Instagram at bivouac dot, coffee.
• 22:10
  That is it for today's episode of roast West Coast.
• 22:13
  As always, if you have been enjoying listening to the
• 22:15
  stories of Entrepreneurship of coffee, Professionals of coffee
• 22:18
  nay life itself. Please share this podcast with a
• 22:21
  friend on your social media or subscribe.
• 22:25
  The show is free. And the newsletter on roast
• 22:27
  westcoast.com is free, but a paid subscription goes a long
• 22:30
  way towards continuing our efforts.
• 22:32
  Efforts to expand this show and to grow a thriving craft coffee
• 22:36
  Community. I hope you think the show is
• 22:38
  worth it. If this episode, got you craving
• 22:41
  some delicious coffee stop by one of our roast industry
• 22:44
  Partners like zoom. Bar Coffee and Tea, Cafe litter
• 22:47
  Camp Coffee Company. Most your coffee company
• 22:50
  steady-state, roasting coffee cycle, roasting or lead coffee.
• 22:54
  You could also order a bag to be delivered to you, right?
• 22:56
  From those roaster, he's online along with supporter Maria
• 23:00
  coffee. I'll link to all of those
• 23:02
  companies. In the show notes.
• 23:03
  And as always, thanks to Cape Horn coffee importers for
• 23:06
  supporting and first light whiskey, for making an excellent
• 23:09
  coffee whiskey that pairs well with an ice cube, a scoop of ice
• 23:13
  cream or just straight from the flask finally series simmer and
• 23:17
  Khalsa executive director at lofty.
• 23:19
  Coffee has been ever so gracious to this show with her time and
• 23:23
  knowledge. Thank you Siri and I can't wait
• 23:25
  for our next chat which is checking notes.
• 23:29
  Next week this episode is was has been written produced and
• 23:34
  recorded by me Ryan Walton. I hope this show is found you
• 23:37
  happy healthy and with at least enough sanity to make it through
• 23:41
  the day and please always tip your Baristas and be sure to
• 23:46
  drink good coffee.