Latest / Leading By Example: Executives Making An Impact / Adaptability Is Your Edge: Joel Kocher, CEO of Humann

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Adaptability Is Your Edge: Joel Kocher, CEO of Humann · Leading By Example: Executives Making An Impact

0:03
Speaker 1: Ruby.
0:07
Speaker 2: You can't spend your entire business life trying to anticipate
0:11
Speaker 2: every problem or every crisis. We don't do that here,
0:15
Speaker 2: We certainly didn't do that at Dell. Those crisises are
0:18
Speaker 2: going to happen. The question is, and the moment of
0:21
Speaker 2: truth is can you overcome them or not? And that
0:24
Speaker 2: is a direct function of your organization's ability or inability
0:30
Speaker 2: to adapt and adapt.
0:32
Speaker 1: Quickly, adapt quickly. Two words from Joel Cohor that saved
0:38
Speaker 1: Dell from becoming just another forgotten nineties computer company. Hi everyone,
0:44
Speaker 1: I'm Jessica chen Emmy Award winning journalist, founder of Soulcast Media,
0:48
Speaker 1: a communications training company, and author of the book Smart
0:52
Speaker 1: Not Loud, How to Get Noticed at work for all
0:55
Speaker 1: the right reasons. Today, on leading by Example, we're talking
0:59
Speaker 1: with Joe Coher, CEO of Human who learned his most
1:04
Speaker 1: valuable leadership lessons not during Dell's crazy fast rise, but
1:09
Speaker 1: in the humbling years that followed. Joel joined Dell when
1:13
Speaker 1: it was a one hundred million dollar company and it
1:15
Speaker 1: was growing fast, but he realized he needed to make
1:18
Speaker 1: some bold moves in order to survive, and that wake
1:22
Speaker 1: up call ultimately propelled Dell to fortune. Five hundred status.
1:27
Speaker 1: But surprisingly, Joel's biggest leadership lesson came after he left Dell,
1:33
Speaker 1: where he learned that success isn't about repetition, but rather reassessment,
1:39
Speaker 1: coming to every situation with fresh eyes and never assuming
1:43
Speaker 1: that you already know the answers. In this conversation, Joel
1:48
Speaker 1: shares why he makes every human employee lead weekly team meetings,
1:53
Speaker 1: why he wishes companies could operate without titles, and why
1:57
Speaker 1: you need to walk your talk one hundred percent of
2:00
Speaker 1: the time. I'm Jessica Chen, and this is leading by example, Joel.
2:12
Speaker 1: It's so great to have you with us today. Let's
2:14
Speaker 1: start from the very beginning. What do you feel like
2:17
Speaker 1: your parents taught you? Like some of the key values
2:20
Speaker 1: that still stick with you.
2:22
Speaker 3: Truth.
2:23
Speaker 2: Truth is the only reality. I distinctly remember I was
2:27
Speaker 2: in a little league baseball game, and I was very competitive,
2:30
Speaker 2: by the way, So in a little league baseball game,
2:33
Speaker 2: playing second base, man on first batter ripped one up
2:37
Speaker 2: the middle. I made a diving catch and then swiped
2:41
Speaker 2: the runner as they went by and threw to first
2:43
Speaker 2: for a double play. The crowd was cheering. It was amazing.
2:47
Speaker 2: Only one problem, I did not tag the runner, I
2:51
Speaker 2: missed him. So I called time out and stopped play
2:56
Speaker 2: and went over to the Empire and said, I missed him.
2:58
Speaker 2: I did not tag him. You made the wrong call,
3:01
Speaker 2: and I'll never forget. The coach wanted me to just
3:04
Speaker 2: go to the bench. The empires said, go away, go away,
3:06
Speaker 2: go to the bench. But my reality was what my
3:11
Speaker 2: father had taught me, which is truth is the most
3:14
Speaker 2: powerful force of trust. It was all about doing the
3:18
Speaker 2: right thing with the right outcome, truth and trust.
3:22
Speaker 1: So once you started growing up, you went to college
3:25
Speaker 1: and you started working at Dell, was working in technology
3:28
Speaker 1: something that you had always aspired to do? Or how
3:31
Speaker 1: did you kind of fall into that industry?
3:33
Speaker 2: Oh, I aspire to I went to the University of Florida,
3:36
Speaker 2: MI undergrad degree and I got a degree in marketing.
3:40
Speaker 2: And then came into the workforce and I was.
3:42
Speaker 3: Not in tech.
3:43
Speaker 2: But it just became really apparent to me very quickly
3:47
Speaker 2: that personal computers were the next big wave. So I
3:51
Speaker 2: went back to school, went back to the University of
3:53
Speaker 2: Florida to get educated on tech. Quit my job, which
3:57
Speaker 2: was a great job, and it was a great paying job.
3:59
Speaker 2: My father's thought I was insane, but I was going
4:02
Speaker 2: to plug in into this uber groundswell because I just
4:06
Speaker 2: knew it was going to be the.
4:07
Speaker 3: Place to be.
4:08
Speaker 1: So you're now at Dell. I think at the time
4:10
Speaker 1: it was like a one hundred million dollar company, and
4:13
Speaker 1: then during your time there it grew over four thousand percent.
4:16
Speaker 1: So during those early years at the company, was there
4:20
Speaker 1: something that you saw that you experienced that changed the
4:24
Speaker 1: way you think about leadership today?
4:27
Speaker 3: Definitely.
4:28
Speaker 2: I think the first thing that I saw was a
4:31
Speaker 2: focus on tomorrow, and I think you could probably expect
4:34
Speaker 2: that given the age of the two individuals that were
4:37
Speaker 2: running the business. But what you came to understand very
4:40
Speaker 2: quickly is that we had to play loan ball. We
4:45
Speaker 2: had to think about the long term. One hundred million,
4:48
Speaker 2: two hundred million, three hundred million dollars in the technology
4:51
Speaker 2: industry doesn't meet the bar of relevance. You had to
4:54
Speaker 2: crack the code on how to get to a multi
4:59
Speaker 2: billion dollar company to be relevant. And I remember the
5:01
Speaker 2: moment I was sitting in an executive staff meeting and
5:06
Speaker 2: we were just celebrating the most recent quarters performance. Nice numbers,
5:12
Speaker 2: you know, twenty five percent growth, nice profitability, beat the
5:16
Speaker 2: street by a penny and then it dawned on me
5:19
Speaker 2: that it didn't matter because they were already multi billion
5:22
Speaker 2: dollar players in the personal computer industry. At the current
5:26
Speaker 2: rate of growth that twenty five percent compounded, we'd be
5:30
Speaker 2: eliminated from the marketplace because ultimately, as markets play out,
5:34
Speaker 2: it comes down to five. So I said Michael, we
5:38
Speaker 2: are basically screwed, which really upsettled at the moment because
5:42
Speaker 2: he wanted to be in a celebratory mood. But once
5:46
Speaker 2: he went off like he so often did, and thought
5:48
Speaker 2: about what I said, he came back the next day
5:50
Speaker 2: and said, you know what, You're absolutely right. Twenty five
5:54
Speaker 2: percent growth is not going to cut it. We're going
5:57
Speaker 2: to get scaled out of this business. So we went
5:59
Speaker 2: to work to figure out what is the growth rate
6:02
Speaker 2: that we have to be at. How are we going
6:05
Speaker 2: to end up being a top five, if not a
6:08
Speaker 2: top one player. Now, the number was scary, but it
6:12
Speaker 2: prompted a set of actions that we took as leaders
6:17
Speaker 2: that changed the trajectory of that company from growing twenty
6:20
Speaker 2: five percent to growing thousands of percent, and of course
6:24
Speaker 2: the rest was history. Dell achieved the number one market
6:28
Speaker 2: share position in the marketplace.
6:30
Speaker 1: When you set the bar so high like that. Does
6:32
Speaker 1: it ever feel scary in terms of disappointing people if
6:36
Speaker 1: you don't reach that goal?
6:38
Speaker 2: Oh, it was scary, But it was scary in the
6:41
Speaker 2: sense that you had to literally grow the business four digits.
6:45
Speaker 2: We were probably young enough and brash enough to just go, well,
6:49
Speaker 2: that's what you have to do. That's what we're going
6:51
Speaker 2: to go do. But it was bold moves we took.
6:54
Speaker 2: You know, one is a complete re architecture of the
6:56
Speaker 2: technology supply chain, which to this day it's had a
7:00
Speaker 2: global effect. We were the first to do that changed
7:04
Speaker 2: our financial model from twenty eight percent gross margin to
7:08
Speaker 2: running the business and succeeding in the teens. Those were
7:12
Speaker 2: all very bold actions that we took as leadership of
7:17
Speaker 2: the company.
7:19
Speaker 1: So that's something that I'm hearing grow bold as something
7:22
Speaker 1: that you learned, especially during those early periods during Dell.
7:25
Speaker 1: Was there anything that you felt like you had to
7:27
Speaker 1: unlearn from what you've seen or experienced at the company.
7:31
Speaker 2: Well, there was, and that was just that every company
7:35
Speaker 2: I'm going to lead in, every company I'm involved in,
7:37
Speaker 2: is not going to be a prolific fortune five hundred
7:42
Speaker 2: and five years from start to finish company. I mean
7:46
Speaker 2: being quite candid, when I left that situation, I really
7:52
Speaker 2: felt like anything I touched would turn to gold. It
7:55
Speaker 2: was really intoxicating to be part of that experience, and
8:02
Speaker 2: I think probably anybody that was involved at that time,
8:04
Speaker 2: certainly in a leadership position, probably believed that.
8:08
Speaker 3: But that's just not reality.
8:10
Speaker 2: So I got involved in many situations over the remainder
8:15
Speaker 2: of my career were some were huge successes in some
8:19
Speaker 2: were not. But it took a different calculus for every
8:24
Speaker 2: single situation. And I think that's probably true of any
8:27
Speaker 2: leadership situation. Before you apply what you think you know,
8:32
Speaker 2: or you believe or no, assess and keep assessing until
8:36
Speaker 2: you got it right.
8:38
Speaker 1: One of the things that I talk and I teach
8:40
Speaker 1: a lot about is humility and that being a very
8:43
Speaker 1: core leadership straight and you talked about how after leaving
8:46
Speaker 1: Dell you felt like everything that you touched would turn
8:49
Speaker 1: into gold. But was there like a moment where you
8:51
Speaker 1: kind of realized humility? Right, it may not be that case.
8:55
Speaker 2: Well, I think you had to relearn humility. I think
8:58
Speaker 2: I probably had humility going into the situation. Post the
9:02
Speaker 2: Dell situation, mean put an entirely different business situation, an
9:07
Speaker 2: entirely different set of variables. The definitional winning was different.
9:13
Speaker 2: Now you have to be really capable at processing the variables,
9:17
Speaker 2: regardless of how different they are. But just success is
9:20
Speaker 2: defined in a different way. And the more humble you
9:23
Speaker 2: are approaching that situation, the better off you're going to be,
9:28
Speaker 2: because you do not have the formula for every single
9:32
Speaker 2: situation that's out there, whether it's business or personal, each
9:36
Speaker 2: one requires that you figure it out, and you figure
9:40
Speaker 2: it out starting from zero. My father once said to me, said, son,
9:45
Speaker 2: the greatest and the worst thing about being in business
9:49
Speaker 2: is that you start off at zero every single month.
9:52
Speaker 3: How profound is that?
9:54
Speaker 1: So after Dell, you then worked in several other companies
9:58
Speaker 1: in different roles as present it is CEO, CEO, and
10:02
Speaker 1: then you retired. That wasn't fun. You unretired, and then
10:06
Speaker 1: you started this amazing company. So tell me during that
10:09
Speaker 1: stint of retirement, like what was going through your mind?
10:13
Speaker 2: Let me give you the good and maybe the bad
10:16
Speaker 2: about that. I think the good was that I got
10:18
Speaker 2: to really connect with my children. When you are involved
10:23
Speaker 2: as a CEO or a top level leader in large
10:26
Speaker 2: public companies, they own you more than you own yourself.
10:31
Speaker 2: So it was difficult. You're on the road a lot,
10:34
Speaker 2: if not all the time, you're traveling internationally, and you
10:38
Speaker 2: just don't have the time to give to young children.
10:40
Speaker 2: And because I was younger, I guess than the norm
10:44
Speaker 2: for senior executives doing those kinds of things. You know
10:47
Speaker 2: what affected my family life. So the good thing about
10:50
Speaker 2: being retired is I got to go to every practice,
10:52
Speaker 2: I got to take them to school every day.
10:55
Speaker 3: I got to, you.
10:56
Speaker 2: Know, really immerse myself and my sons when it really mattered.
11:01
Speaker 2: The negative was I hated the part about not having
11:05
Speaker 2: a mission. I found out I'm a mission guy. I
11:09
Speaker 2: am a purpose guy. I've got to have deeper meaning
11:13
Speaker 2: and deeper purpose than just live your life as a
11:17
Speaker 2: retired dude.
11:19
Speaker 1: There's so many people out there that I feel they
11:22
Speaker 1: want what you are talking about, But finding that purpose
11:26
Speaker 1: is hard. It's confusing. They don't know where to start.
11:30
Speaker 1: What would you tell a person who wants to find
11:33
Speaker 1: that clarity.
11:34
Speaker 2: It's not just going to come to you. You've got
11:37
Speaker 2: to seek it. And that's what I mean when I
11:39
Speaker 2: say find deeper purpose and meaning in your life. Go
11:43
Speaker 2: seek that meaning. When you live in this country, there
11:46
Speaker 2: are opportunities to go change the world. But you have
11:51
Speaker 2: to be highly attuned to what you do well to
11:55
Speaker 2: the fact that you have to have courage to go
12:00
Speaker 2: seek and find those things and then take the leap
12:03
Speaker 2: to leave that comfort level that you currently have in
12:07
Speaker 2: your current lifestyle, because let me tell you what's not
12:09
Speaker 2: going to happen. What's not going to happen is you
12:12
Speaker 2: are not going to conveniently just fall into the way
12:17
Speaker 2: to change the world in your current life and your
12:20
Speaker 2: current trajectory. You have to understand that if you just
12:26
Speaker 2: follow the river's current, you're not going to be led
12:30
Speaker 2: to that answer.
12:31
Speaker 3: You've got to be willing to fight the current.
12:35
Speaker 1: We'll be back with more leading by example. After a
12:37
Speaker 1: quick break, tell me about your company, human, How did
12:53
Speaker 1: you even decide to start this company?
12:57
Speaker 2: I at least realized I needed to have my eyes
13:00
Speaker 2: open and I need to be looking for the next lane.
13:05
Speaker 2: But I had a friend who invited me to an
13:07
Speaker 2: investor presentation where the University of Texas Hell Sciences Center
13:11
Speaker 2: was looking for a commercial partner to commercialize some technology
13:15
Speaker 2: and know how in a program that had actually been
13:19
Speaker 2: started by a gentleman who won the Nobel Prize for medicine,
13:23
Speaker 2: and he had discovered a molecule it's the most important
13:27
Speaker 2: molecule in the cardiovascular system. And I couldn't move my
13:31
Speaker 2: I was like, wait a second, you're telling me that
13:35
Speaker 2: this molecule won the Nobel pricere Mission. Why have I
13:38
Speaker 2: never heard of it? And by the way, the molecule
13:41
Speaker 2: is nitric n it riic oxide. I was like, this molecule,
13:48
Speaker 2: you have discovered a way to get the body to
13:50
Speaker 2: replenish what age takes away for the typical human being.
13:56
Speaker 2: We've got to figure out how to productize this.
14:00
Speaker 3: We can do that.
14:01
Speaker 2: We can help change the trajectory of human cardiovascular health,
14:06
Speaker 2: because when you think about it, cardiovascular health is the
14:10
Speaker 2: number one killer of human beings in the world.
14:12
Speaker 3: Right.
14:12
Speaker 2: It's dysfunction by a wide margin. It's not cancer. America
14:18
Speaker 2: and people in general around the world have cardiovascular wrong.
14:22
Speaker 2: They think it's heart only number one, and then number
14:26
Speaker 2: two is that it's for old people. Quite the contrary.
14:30
Speaker 2: You have sixty thousand miles of blood vessels in your body,
14:34
Speaker 2: give or take that service, about thirty five to thirty
14:38
Speaker 2: seven trillion cells. There's nothing in the human body, nothing
14:44
Speaker 2: that is more foundational to human health or to longevity
14:49
Speaker 2: than the functionality of those sixty thousand miles of blood
14:52
Speaker 2: vessels and the blood flow that emanates from that.
14:57
Speaker 1: You have this in many ways, this blank slate, right,
15:00
Speaker 1: And now you're thinking, I need to start a company
15:03
Speaker 1: to help bring this to market. How are you building
15:06
Speaker 1: this company right from the beginning?
15:09
Speaker 3: Well, first, not quick.
15:11
Speaker 2: So one of my cooperating principles as an entrepreneur is
15:16
Speaker 2: do it right, not quick. And I think when I
15:19
Speaker 2: look at the failure of businesses, right, I think there's
15:22
Speaker 2: about thirty three million businesses in the United States at
15:25
Speaker 2: any given time. The failure rate you pick the number.
15:28
Speaker 2: I've seen failure rates of forty percent. I've seen failure
15:31
Speaker 2: rates of sixty percent. In most cases, I would say,
15:36
Speaker 2: at least with early stage companies, the biggest failure driver
15:42
Speaker 2: is trying to do it quick, not right. So we
15:46
Speaker 2: set out to do it the right way, and it
15:48
Speaker 2: took us a while. I mean, we had to invest
15:50
Speaker 2: in the science, doing clinical trials and clinical data. We
15:54
Speaker 2: went to physicians first, because not only had I never
15:57
Speaker 2: heard of it, but nobody that I talked to had
16:01
Speaker 2: ever heard of nitric oxide. And not only that neither
16:05
Speaker 2: had physicians. Pretty shocking when a molecule is awarded the
16:09
Speaker 2: Nobel Prize that not even physicians have heard of it.
16:12
Speaker 2: But Western doctors are just not trained in that way
16:16
Speaker 2: or to think that way. So going to physicians for
16:20
Speaker 2: a couple of years and going to all the physician
16:23
Speaker 2: trade shows to get validation educate them so that when
16:29
Speaker 2: we started talking to consumers, they would indeed be able
16:34
Speaker 2: to have the confidence that what we were telling them
16:36
Speaker 2: was accurate because we had physicians backing that and along that.
16:42
Speaker 2: One of the benefits of doing it right, not quick,
16:45
Speaker 2: is the discovery process is a lot more robust. I
16:49
Speaker 2: actually became more and more convicted as that early stage
16:54
Speaker 2: process went along, And I call that doing the hard yards.
16:58
Speaker 2: So you can't go from first base to third base.
17:01
Speaker 2: You got to touch every base. In fact, in many
17:03
Speaker 2: ways you have to touch them more than once. But
17:06
Speaker 2: the benefit is you learn, you gain additional insights. It
17:10
Speaker 2: also feeds your conviction because in the early days of
17:13
Speaker 2: any company, I would say to entrepreneurs, look, even if
17:17
Speaker 2: you have five million dollars in sales, you haven't done
17:20
Speaker 2: anything yet.
17:22
Speaker 3: You have to.
17:23
Speaker 2: Get customers to vote again and again and again when
17:28
Speaker 2: they come back for more, and they keep coming back
17:31
Speaker 2: for more, I would proffer that's when you know you're
17:33
Speaker 2: on the right path. And doctor ferdmir he was so
17:37
Speaker 2: committed to the science. He just helped me understand that
17:42
Speaker 2: to do this in the right way, to do it
17:44
Speaker 2: the responsible way, and to do it in a way
17:47
Speaker 2: that people are gonna believe it, because you have to
17:50
Speaker 2: realize that something as profounded that people aren't just going
17:54
Speaker 2: to take at face value. You're going to have to
17:56
Speaker 2: prove it to him that it made complete and total
17:59
Speaker 2: sense for us to do the hard yards to invest
18:02
Speaker 2: in those clinical trials. I mean, we've invested in double
18:07
Speaker 2: digit clinical trials. I don't think you or anyone else
18:10
Speaker 2: could name a supplement company that's done double digit clinical trials.
18:15
Speaker 2: And I think that's one of the reasons and one
18:17
Speaker 2: of the drivers for why doctor Muright actually joined our
18:21
Speaker 2: company in twenty nineteen. Can you imagine a Nobel Prize
18:25
Speaker 2: laureate as part of a supplement company to me that
18:29
Speaker 2: speaks volumes?
18:31
Speaker 1: Do you feel like a lot of entrepreneurs just because
18:34
Speaker 1: of the culture, because of how things flow influencers Do
18:38
Speaker 1: you think a lot of entrepreneurs these days are just
18:40
Speaker 1: so impatient. And if so, what do you say to that.
18:44
Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh, the last three generations are impatient, but
18:48
Speaker 2: maybe the last fifty three generations are impatient. You know,
18:51
Speaker 2: it's in the human perspective that you have to go fast.
18:56
Speaker 2: I can't tell you there wasn't a time when I
18:58
Speaker 2: went too fast, but I've just learned. I think you
19:02
Speaker 2: gain this unique perspective that doing it right over the
19:09
Speaker 2: long term is going to have a much better outcome
19:12
Speaker 2: than doing it fast. And you know that applies to
19:14
Speaker 2: probably most things in life when you think about it.
19:18
Speaker 1: I can hear some listeners right now thinking, well, Joel,
19:21
Speaker 1: you did it fast at Dell. You built this company
19:23
Speaker 1: x percent in X number of years. You did it fast,
19:26
Speaker 1: and look how successful it was. Why can't I take
19:29
Speaker 1: that same fast approach?
19:31
Speaker 2: You know, that's a great question that no one's ever
19:34
Speaker 2: asked me. I think there were a couple of things
19:37
Speaker 2: that were probably omnipresent in the Dell experience that may
19:41
Speaker 2: be really tough to replicate.
19:42
Speaker 3: One was just Michael Dell, right.
19:44
Speaker 2: He had an incalculable ability to press, press, press and
19:51
Speaker 2: somehow come up with the right answer. So he was
19:54
Speaker 2: much better at going fast than probably ninety nine point
19:57
Speaker 2: nine percent of the population. But if you we look
20:00
Speaker 2: back at the history, there were also mistakes made that
20:03
Speaker 2: probably could have been avoided if we have just gone
20:06
Speaker 2: a little slower. The other is, if you looked at
20:09
Speaker 2: the industry at the time, it was still early. Even
20:13
Speaker 2: though there were some mature players, the industry itself wasn't baked.
20:18
Speaker 2: So there was enough variability in the environment that if
20:23
Speaker 2: one could come up with one or two significant ideas
20:27
Speaker 2: on how to approach the marketplace different that truly could
20:31
Speaker 2: shift the paradigm.
20:32
Speaker 3: And that's what we did.
20:33
Speaker 2: We just shifted the entire paradigm on the competitors, and
20:37
Speaker 2: that was really I think what resulted in such a
20:40
Speaker 2: prolific growth rate.
20:43
Speaker 1: By the way, what was it like working for Michael Dell?
20:45
Speaker 2: It was tough on one dimension and easy on another.
20:49
Speaker 2: You know, working with Michael Dill and doctor Faridmered who
20:56
Speaker 2: won the Nobel Prize for medicine, one was a hammer
21:00
Speaker 2: and one was a violent. I think with Michael that
21:03
Speaker 2: we were both built and architected to be super competitive
21:09
Speaker 2: kick ass. Don't even bother to take the names. It
21:12
Speaker 2: was just rolling right, but He was very demanding. He
21:16
Speaker 2: was in perpetual pursuit of the competitive edge. So you
21:21
Speaker 2: had to be willing to think that way to make
21:25
Speaker 2: that level of investment in time and effort, or you
21:31
Speaker 2: just frankly fell away, and many did in those years.
21:36
Speaker 2: The executive turnover was pretty high. Farred, on the other hand,
21:42
Speaker 2: was in constant pursuit of changing the world, but he
21:47
Speaker 2: committed his life to the science because he realized that
21:52
Speaker 2: it was going to take decades to achieve his objective,
21:57
Speaker 2: which went way beyond capital gain.
22:00
Speaker 1: That's interesting to me because obviously two different leaders, perhaps
22:04
Speaker 1: two different philosophies and how they work. So what did
22:08
Speaker 1: doctor Farid Murad teach you about leadership that was perhaps
22:12
Speaker 1: completely different?
22:14
Speaker 2: He taught me to care about humanity, to be completely fair,
22:19
Speaker 2: you know, to girl a business from one hundred million
22:21
Speaker 2: to multi billion in five years, you're so focused on
22:25
Speaker 2: the stuff and so focused on the things, and probably
22:29
Speaker 2: less focused on people than you probably should have. Now.
22:34
Speaker 2: On one hand, you are who you hire as a company,
22:37
Speaker 2: so I don't mean that you're not going to build
22:39
Speaker 2: it by yourself, but you're probably less focused on humanity itself.
22:46
Speaker 2: And I know technology has a tendency to not have
22:49
Speaker 2: a focus on humanity. Farred taught me that the only
22:54
Speaker 2: thing that really matters was did you change the trajectory
22:59
Speaker 2: of humanity? And I think that's the difference in where
23:02
Speaker 2: I am in my life today and where I was
23:06
Speaker 2: when I was thirty is I want to change the
23:08
Speaker 2: damn trajectory of human health. I want to do something
23:12
Speaker 2: that has lasting meaning that it has a permanent duration.
23:19
Speaker 2: And that's what drives me today versus what drove me,
23:24
Speaker 2: you know, thirty years ago.
23:25
Speaker 1: I love that. I think I read somewhere that you
23:28
Speaker 1: said the word adaptability was very important. That's a core competency. Yes,
23:33
Speaker 1: how does one learn to be more adaptable?
23:37
Speaker 2: Well, you called out a great trait that I should
23:39
Speaker 2: have listed, because if you asked me, and I've led
23:43
Speaker 2: smallish companies, I've led an entrepreneurial company, I've let a
23:46
Speaker 2: Fortune five hundred company. If you asked me, if you
23:50
Speaker 2: only have joel one competence as a company, what would
23:54
Speaker 2: it be? And I would say, regardless of size, is
23:58
Speaker 2: the ability to adapt.
23:59
Speaker 3: And I think it.
24:00
Speaker 2: Probably even applies to the human being in the singular,
24:04
Speaker 2: having the capacity or the core competence to adapt. Is everything,
24:09
Speaker 2: because you're never going to get it right before you act,
24:12
Speaker 2: because you're going to encounter things you do not predict.
24:16
Speaker 2: You can't spend your entire life or your business life
24:21
Speaker 2: trying to anticipate every problem or every crisis. We don't
24:25
Speaker 2: do that here, We certainly didn't do that at Dell.
24:29
Speaker 2: Those crisises are going to happen. The question is, and
24:32
Speaker 2: the moment of truth is can you overcome them or not?
24:35
Speaker 2: And that is a direct function of your organization's ability
24:41
Speaker 2: or inability.
24:43
Speaker 3: To adapt and adapt quickly.
24:45
Speaker 2: So just drawing on that ability, being conscious of it
24:50
Speaker 2: and saying, look, this is what I need for myself.
24:54
Speaker 2: I have to do this and rather than taking the
24:57
Speaker 2: easy way out, put yourself in a position where you've
25:02
Speaker 2: got to adapt.
25:03
Speaker 1: I sometimes feel the barrier to someone feeling confident enough
25:08
Speaker 1: to adapt is the mindset of getting over that fear,
25:11
Speaker 1: because adapt means change, and a lot of people are
25:15
Speaker 1: afraid of change, They're afraid of the unknown. How do
25:18
Speaker 1: you overcome that barrier?
25:20
Speaker 2: Well, let me ask you a question. I note that
25:23
Speaker 2: you talk about this topic. What brought that to your attention?
25:28
Speaker 1: So I work in the communications world, and for me,
25:31
Speaker 1: when I first started out, communications was not something that
25:35
Speaker 1: I was good at. I think part of it was culturally,
25:37
Speaker 1: you know, in my family, we weren't really taught that,
25:39
Speaker 1: and in the workplace, I felt stuck, and I think,
25:43
Speaker 1: similar to you, Joel, I didn't want to stay stuck,
25:46
Speaker 1: and so I started asking the questions of, well, what
25:49
Speaker 1: do I need to do to overcome that? And for me,
25:52
Speaker 1: a lot of it was just what actions do I
25:55
Speaker 1: need to take? And I think just having small actions
25:57
Speaker 1: like that, at least for me, allows me to then
26:00
Speaker 1: make progress forward. So I think in the process of that,
26:04
Speaker 1: perhaps I'm learning to adapt as well. But I think
26:06
Speaker 1: it's really overcoming that fear of staying stuck and thinking
26:11
Speaker 1: what can I do about it. That's my own personal story.
26:14
Speaker 2: That's very good, it's very insightful and I think can
26:17
Speaker 2: help a lot of people because I don't know a
26:19
Speaker 2: single person, not one that has been successful without overcoming fear.
26:26
Speaker 2: It's a universal blocker. I think, when you think about
26:28
Speaker 2: leadership efficacy or even life efficacy, how can you succeed
26:34
Speaker 2: without the capacity and the willingness to overcome fear. One
26:40
Speaker 2: of the things we do in our company is in
26:44
Speaker 2: our weekly staff meetings rather than me or another leader
26:50
Speaker 2: executive leader in the company run the meetings. Our employees
26:54
Speaker 2: run the staff meetings on a rotating basis, and we'll
26:58
Speaker 2: give plenty of notice. You know, it's like, OK, weeks out, Johnny,
27:01
Speaker 2: You're running the staff meeting. And always those meetings start
27:08
Speaker 2: with a short presentation on what they do and what
27:12
Speaker 2: role they play in the company. And almost without fail,
27:17
Speaker 2: people are fearful the first time of doing that. They
27:21
Speaker 2: don't want to speak in front of the group. They
27:24
Speaker 2: don't want to calendar or an agenda the meeting, they
27:28
Speaker 2: don't want to be on point. But also without fail,
27:33
Speaker 2: they always tell me after that's the best thing that
27:36
Speaker 2: I ever did. I'm so glad that you had me
27:40
Speaker 2: do that. And I didn't make an optional I think
27:44
Speaker 2: to be fair, most people would probably opt out. But
27:48
Speaker 2: after they did it, they were so proud of themselves
27:50
Speaker 2: and they learned so much. And my hope is that
27:54
Speaker 2: one of the key things they learned was just they
27:56
Speaker 2: can overcome their fear, and that overcoming and confronting your.
27:59
Speaker 3: Fear is worth it.
28:01
Speaker 1: What do you think that experience of having your team
28:05
Speaker 1: members lead a meeting, what do you think it teaches
28:07
Speaker 1: them about leadership.
28:08
Speaker 2: I think it makes them more aware. I don't think
28:11
Speaker 2: any of them ever thought before they ran a meeting
28:15
Speaker 2: like that, what it must be like to try to
28:19
Speaker 2: orchestrate a meeting number one. Number two is a meeting
28:23
Speaker 2: that was relevant to their peers and their teammates, and
28:28
Speaker 2: number three is to motivate and rally them to the cause.
28:33
Speaker 2: We all want to be relevant to our peer group,
28:36
Speaker 2: but I think learning how to do it and being
28:38
Speaker 2: put in the situation of really thinking about your ability
28:44
Speaker 2: to direct the orchestra is a unique position for most
28:47
Speaker 2: people to be in.
28:49
Speaker 1: Can you tell me about a time you misjudged your
28:52
Speaker 1: team and what they needed from you, and how did
28:54
Speaker 1: you course correct.
28:56
Speaker 2: I have this ability to toggle between CEO visionary and
29:03
Speaker 2: CEO operator, and sometimes I get it wrong, and sometimes
29:08
Speaker 2: my team needs one when I've applied the other, and
29:13
Speaker 2: I love it when they pointed out. But most recently,
29:17
Speaker 2: as an example, we're going through a very significant rebranding
29:21
Speaker 2: and I leaned heavily into the CEO visionary versus the
29:29
Speaker 2: CEO operator. And what I realized or came to realize,
29:33
Speaker 2: was they needed my help because I've done it before,
29:37
Speaker 2: and they haven't, so I had to make that adjustment
29:40
Speaker 2: to CEO operator.
29:43
Speaker 3: You know.
29:43
Speaker 1: Having this conversation with you, Joel, I feel like in
29:45
Speaker 1: many ways you are truly embodying what this podcast is called.
29:49
Speaker 1: It's leading by example. I feel like I can completely
29:52
Speaker 1: see that you're instilling this within your team. So as
29:55
Speaker 1: you kind of start to wrap up here, I'm just curious.
29:57
Speaker 1: You know, has your leadership just evolved again the fast
30:01
Speaker 1: paced growth to now you running human as a company?
30:05
Speaker 1: Has it changed?
30:06
Speaker 3: I would say it's evolved.
30:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, It's been an evolution, not a revolution, and probably
30:12
Speaker 2: the vast majority of what you see is what you get.
30:15
Speaker 2: Early on, I was put in the position of having
30:19
Speaker 2: to step up and learn how to do this, how
30:22
Speaker 2: to be an effective leader. I think leadership efficacy, though,
30:27
Speaker 2: begins with walking your own talk. And you got to
30:31
Speaker 2: walk your own talk one hundred percent of the time,
30:33
Speaker 2: not ninety percent of the time. There is nothing that
30:36
Speaker 2: destroys that efficacy more than not following the path that
30:43
Speaker 2: you're telling others to follow. And I love that about leadership.
30:48
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm that guy anyway. I love getting in
30:51
Speaker 2: the dirt and rolling around, even though I've led very
30:55
Speaker 2: large organizations. I have a lot of pride in the
30:59
Speaker 2: fact that if you want to get down and race
31:02
Speaker 2: to take the garbage out, I'm a game.
31:04
Speaker 3: Let's go do it.
31:05
Speaker 2: But ultimately, people are going to follow people that they
31:10
Speaker 2: believe in, and people are going to believe more in
31:13
Speaker 2: your actions than what.
31:15
Speaker 1: You say, which goes into my last question, what does
31:19
Speaker 1: leading by example mean?
31:21
Speaker 2: I think leading by example starts with realizing that just
31:27
Speaker 2: because you're a CEO, or you're a vice president or
31:30
Speaker 2: you're a manager doesn't make you any different. In fact,
31:34
Speaker 2: it makes you less important. What you do has a
31:38
Speaker 2: level of importance to it. But the bottom line, and
31:41
Speaker 2: I say this often in our company, is I wish
31:44
Speaker 2: we could operate companies without titles. Now that's not realistic
31:49
Speaker 2: because you have to have a level of organization and
31:53
Speaker 2: you have to have order. The hierarchy of decision making
31:57
Speaker 2: has to be clear. But I wish there didn't have
32:00
Speaker 2: to be that, because at the end of the day,
32:03
Speaker 2: human beings tend to place more credence in those titles
32:09
Speaker 2: than are actually there. We're all just a bunch of
32:11
Speaker 2: people trying to change the world. Let's think about it
32:14
Speaker 2: that way and live on the most common denominator.
32:18
Speaker 1: I love that. I can't help but draw it back
32:20
Speaker 1: full circle to one of the stories that you shared
32:23
Speaker 1: in the beginning of when you were a kid and
32:25
Speaker 1: your parents teaching you do what's right, tell the truth.
32:29
Speaker 1: That's the way to go, and that's how you lead.
32:31
Speaker 3: Human You're a very insightful person.
32:34
Speaker 2: I never connected those two dots, and you know what,
32:38
Speaker 2: I think you're right over the target. Thank you, Joel,
32:41
Speaker 2: Thank you, Jessica.
32:45
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Joel. I walked
32:48
Speaker 1: away with a lot of amazing golden nuggets. In fact,
32:51
Speaker 1: there are three takeaways that really stood out to me
32:53
Speaker 1: that I want to chat with you about. The first
32:56
Speaker 1: one is when he talks about how leadership is not
33:00
Speaker 1: about speed, it's about doing things right. And it made
33:04
Speaker 1: me think about how we are all living in this
33:07
Speaker 1: world that glorifies speed. You feel the pressure to hit
33:11
Speaker 1: that deadline with your team and get to market quickly.
33:14
Speaker 1: I feel it too. In fact, I even asked him
33:17
Speaker 1: when he was at Dell part of their success was
33:20
Speaker 1: their ability to move fast? Well, if you remember, he
33:24
Speaker 1: candidly said that he believes that it was a moment
33:27
Speaker 1: in time for them. The tech industry back in the
33:30
Speaker 1: eighties was ripe for major transformation. The industry was just
33:34
Speaker 1: taking shape, so they had to move fast. But I
33:37
Speaker 1: do see the value in what he is saying now.
33:40
Speaker 1: In fact, it's a great reminder that sometimes making that
33:44
Speaker 1: decision to slow down to do things right with your
33:47
Speaker 1: team is really about playing the long game. This can
33:52
Speaker 1: be measured through time, but it can also be measured
33:55
Speaker 1: through creating the environment with your team to ask thoughtful
34:00
Speaker 1: and thorough questions together. In fact, we know better decisions
34:04
Speaker 1: are made when there are diverse perspectives in a room.
34:07
Speaker 1: I even think about the way consumers make decisions today. Right,
34:11
Speaker 1: everything gets amplified, especially a mistake. One mistake can mean
34:16
Speaker 1: a lot of angry customers and a loss of trust.
34:20
Speaker 1: The second thing that Joel said that really stood out
34:23
Speaker 1: to me was about how adaptability is leadership, and to me,
34:29
Speaker 1: it makes total sense. You know, right now, all of
34:32
Speaker 1: us are undergoing what is probably one of the biggest
34:36
Speaker 1: changes in how humans work after the Industrial Revolution. AI
34:41
Speaker 1: is fundamentally shifting the way we work, including the kind
34:46
Speaker 1: of work we do. We're all living this right now,
34:49
Speaker 1: and if we stay stuck in our ways, stuck in
34:53
Speaker 1: our own thinking and assuming we know all the right answers,
34:57
Speaker 1: that's just going to compound to make us fall backwards.
35:02
Speaker 1: For Joel, he spent years in the tech industry, He
35:05
Speaker 1: took a break, and then he went back, but into
35:08
Speaker 1: a whole different industry. He talked about exercising his muscle
35:13
Speaker 1: of reassessing, learning, and adjusting in real time. I think
35:18
Speaker 1: that's key his environment change, therefore his approach needed to
35:23
Speaker 1: change too. I also love how he trickles this lesson
35:26
Speaker 1: down in a really practical way at his company, which
35:30
Speaker 1: was he gets every single person at his company to
35:34
Speaker 1: lead their team's weekly meeting. Now, I imagine most people wouldn't
35:39
Speaker 1: want to do this, but this exercise forces people at
35:43
Speaker 1: his company to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. It allows
35:48
Speaker 1: them to think quickly on their feet, put themselves in
35:51
Speaker 1: an entirely new position. In other words, they are adapting
35:55
Speaker 1: and I love that. So the question is, how can
35:59
Speaker 1: you lead by getting your team comfortable with change? Maybe
36:03
Speaker 1: it is as simple as getting them out of their
36:06
Speaker 1: comfort zone. The third point that stood out to me
36:10
Speaker 1: was this change the world, but do it in your
36:12
Speaker 1: own way. So Joel said that he's energized by the
36:17
Speaker 1: thought that he is changing the world through his work. Now. Initially,
36:22
Speaker 1: to be honest, when I heard that, I was like, Okay,
36:25
Speaker 1: that's a grand statement, which I'm not sure all of
36:28
Speaker 1: us can relate to. But then I start to think
36:31
Speaker 1: about it differently. Changing the world while grand isn't only
36:36
Speaker 1: reserved for the CEOs and founders of major companies, I
36:41
Speaker 1: actually think we can instill a very similar perspective in
36:44
Speaker 1: our own work with our team. So it makes me
36:48
Speaker 1: think about the word purpose, like why are we doing
36:51
Speaker 1: the work? If we don't remind ourselves of the why,
36:55
Speaker 1: we will quickly feel burned out. So the question is
36:59
Speaker 1: how how do we take this sentiment like I'm going
37:02
Speaker 1: to change the world and make it our own, or
37:05
Speaker 1: more importantly, how can we share this sentiment with our team.
37:09
Speaker 1: The answer it's reminding them that our work matters, their
37:14
Speaker 1: work matters, or more specifically, it's letting them know that
37:18
Speaker 1: the work that they're doing makes an impact. I think
37:22
Speaker 1: as a great leader, it's up to us to remind
37:24
Speaker 1: our team of the impact we're making, especially when it's
37:28
Speaker 1: super easy to get bogged down with task meetings, deadlines,
37:32
Speaker 1: revisions in the communications world. We say, you can actually
37:36
Speaker 1: remind people of the vision, the why through storytelling, analogies,
37:41
Speaker 1: and yes, even presenting data. You and your team are
37:45
Speaker 1: changing the world in your own way, and as a
37:47
Speaker 1: strong leader, you just need to communicate it. I think
37:51
Speaker 1: that's a great way to lead. Thanks so much to
37:56
Speaker 1: Joel for joining us. This was such a great conversation,
37:58
Speaker 1: and to all of you listening. If you enjoyed this episode,
38:02
Speaker 1: or you have feedback on what you want to hear
38:04
Speaker 1: and guess you'd like to hear from, please rate and
38:08
Speaker 1: review Leading by Example. Every review, every rating really does
38:13
Speaker 1: help us reach more people and make this show the
38:15
Speaker 1: best it can be. I'm Jessica Chen, the author of
38:19
Speaker 1: Smart Not Loud, How to Get Noticed at Work for
38:22
Speaker 1: All the Right Reasons, and the CEO of Soulcast Media,
38:25
Speaker 1: a communications training company. For more information about me and
38:30
Speaker 1: what I do, you can head over to my website
38:32
Speaker 1: Solcastmedia dot com or add me on LinkedIn and Instagram.
38:37
Speaker 1: A huge thank you to our production team at Ruby Studio,
38:40
Speaker 1: especially Matt Stillo and Sierra Spring. We'll be back in
38:44
Speaker 1: two weeks with another episode of Leading by Example. I'll
38:47
Speaker 1: see you then,