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Presbyterian Perpetuation of Slavery and Racism w/ William Yoo · A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Well, hello everyone and welcome again to a Matter of Faith, a Presby podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions of faith, justice, and church life.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Don't forget to write in and let us know your question, Wiley,
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Because if it matters to you, if it matters to you, and it matters to us.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: And it just despite be what Simon,
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: A matter of faith.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: Imagine that.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Imagine that.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: Just imagine it.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Imagine that.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: Lee, I was having fun, uh, over the last week imagining you at this Adele concert that you were at.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: Well, lemme tell you, I kind of lost my mind a little bit.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: It was an outer body experience.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: I am one of those people I don't like, I don't know.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: I don't get, I don't show my excitement a lot.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: Like I'm a very, like, well I'm very introverted, but I present as an extrovert, but at the same time, I don't show my excitement that easily.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: Like, I don't get like excitement to where I'm like yelling and you know, all that kind of stuff.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: But I did this time I'm like, I'm like from one extreme to the other.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: I kind of like, don't like to do that.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: But then when I do, it's like a lot.
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: So there's a lot of singing.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: There was a lot of screaming.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: Adele looked wonderful.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Yes, I was in Las Vegas and you know, I will say Vegas is a very interesting place that I don't know would be my place, I would say.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: But yeah, Adele was wonderful and she looked great and sounded wonderful and that was a good part.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: And we got to go out to the Red Rock Canyon and, which was beautiful.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: So yeah, it was a good trip, but I'm very tired, very, very tired.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: We took the red eye back and I'm still very sleepy, so it was a good trip.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: But what she probably imagined is what actually happened.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: Nice.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Well, you know what I imagined mostly for the Oscars, the Academy Awards this past week as
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: Well.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: Oh
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: Most of that happened as well.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: Of course.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: Everything everywhere, all at once, kind of cleaning house.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: Which is a, a wonderful thing cuz I'll say it's one of the best movies I've ever seen.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: So
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very good.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: Um, especially excited for Michelle Yo, uh, taking, being the first Asian actress to win the Academy Award for best actress.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: .
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: I also saw, and I, I wanna acknowledge this, this debate that you see on the internet, I don't often want us to like get into the comments, but
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: I do wanna acknowledge the sort of frustration some people have expressed about Angela Bassett not winning best supporting actress for Black Panther, Wakanda forever.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: Cuz she won.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: Pretty much in every other awards ceremony that she was nominated for and did not win here.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: Jamie Lee Curtis won for her performance and everything everywhere, all at once.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: Someone who had also, despite a really long career, had never won an Academy Award before, which is kind of, kind of wild to believe.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: There's also this question about race and representation going around, uh, ar going on around that as well.
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: I just wanna acknowledge that that conversation exists here, if that makes sense.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: Again, super excited for everything everywhere, all at once.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: Also excited for Angela Bassett for all the awards she did win.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: Should she have won Best Supporting Actress.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: I'm not gonna sit here and say yes or no.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: I would just say that both of those women gave great performances.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: I'm glad they were both nominated and you know, I just wanted to acknowledge the, the conversation going on around representation.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: And I think one of the main things about it is that Angela Bassett's performances in multiple movies.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: The, the argument that I've been seeing a lot is that she should have already won one.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: Fair enough.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: And that is something that I think is important to acknowledge and the, the, like the racial bias in the movie industry and uh, and all that that encompasses.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: Um, I love Jamie Lee Curtis, but at the same time, you know, there are a lot of conversations that should be happening right now about that.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: And also when it comes to the whale, which Brandon Frazier won, which mm-hmm.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: , I would have never thought that that would've ever came out of anybody's mouth, that Brandon Frazier would win an Oscar because this is someone is from Encino man from Tar, like he played Tarzan, wasn't it Tarzan or something?
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: The Mummy, um, was it the mummy?
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: A and the Mummy, but he was also in like some Tarzan Chas into Tarzan or something like that.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: So he was one of those actors that was very like in like these culty comedy type things.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: But the conversation about the whale when it comes to, you know, fat phobia and the way that Hollywood has always portrayed people who are of larger sizes, who are, um, who, who kind of identify themselves as that.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: That's another conversation that I think is happening as well.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: And are is, is Hollywood kind of like in some ways fat shaming?
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's, that's also another conversation that's happening that I've seen.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: But I think the, you know, the Oscars this time, it had a, it felt with these wins, especially for our Asian siblings, like to see that representation and the guy who won the supporting actor,
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: Uh, Kawan
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: Who was in the Goonies
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: And who was in Indiana Jones as a child actor.
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: And to see like the full circle coming around, it was just, and his speech, it really was kind of a, a good moment I think.
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: And so I hope people, if you didn't watch you should go, you should go listen to the acceptance speeches.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: So the Oscars y'all
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: Always interesting.
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: Always.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: Always interesting.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: Um,
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: Oh, and the, um, Daniels mentioned in their acceptance about drag, that drag is not a threat that drag should not be under attack, which, you know, is also in the news that we can talk about.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we mentioned a little bit last week the different states starting to crack down on drag shows.
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: There's also been a number of sort of anti-trans bills coming in.
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: Um, why don't you give us a quick lowdown, Lee?
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so if you don't know, Tennessee passed this drag banning bill and Governor Billy signed it into law, which makes it one of which makes it the first one of its kind in the us And also he is expecting to sign these anti-trans laws as are as, as many of them are going through different state legislations right now.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: And it is something that I find very disgusting.
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: It's something that I find also threatening because once they go for, once they go for the most vulnerable in said, marginalized community, then their, their next biggest thing will be coming for the rest of us.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: And so I think that this is something that I hope people really get out there and speak against, go find your local drag performers because if you have never been to a drag performance, and I am going to say that most of these people who are making these laws have never been to one.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: I'm just gonna say that probably not.
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: And I mean, we've said this on the podcast, like we've experienced the spirit and church in drag performances and I am also kind of like tired of the, you know, the constant defending or like the theological defense of it all.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: It's, it's like at some point it doesn't, ideally within a a government, your religious beliefs should have nothing to do with the way in which you, you, you govern.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: Like, if you don't think it's right, just don't go.
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: Like, that's my thing.
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: If you're all about freedom and if you're all about that, then you have the choice not to go.
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: You don't have to go, you don't have to take your kids.
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: And the people who are taking their kids to these drag story times and such drag performers know their audience.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: Like they're not going to, to do the things that they would do in a, in one performance and they do in front of children.
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: Like, that's just kind of ridiculous to think about.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: And to hypersexualized drag performers also kind of hyper sexualizing trans folk in ways that are just, that's just not how it is.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: They're just making up things.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: And so I think as people of fate, this should be pretty much a top priority for us is that we should be out there speaking out against and supporting our drag siblings however we can and supporting our trans siblings because trans healthcare is lifesaving medical professionals have said it over and over again that gender affirming medical care is lifesaving for trans people, especially trans kids.
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: And if we are going to be people of faith, you gotta get out there and, and say something and change it because, because we're basically taking the lives of our trans siblings through all of this, all of these bills.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: So that is, that is my call for everybody is to get out there and do what you need to do.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: There's drag performers in every town, so, and there's trans people everywhere.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: They've been here, they will continue to be here.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: And so this is not a new phenomenon.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: We are just seeing a, a different reiteration of, you know, bigoted laws that are happening right now from governments that in my opinion, literally don't know what else to do because they can't govern or take care of its people.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: They just side on social issues and this is where we are, they attack the most marginal.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: And obviously also I think whenever something happens, people wanna offer prayers and prayers matter, but it does actions matter and speak a lot as well.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: So just as a reminder to folks about that.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: But speaking of prayers, we do have a question about prayers and specifically whether you're praying about changes in our society or something more, uh, specific to your own case, like, I don't know, I hope I do well on, I pray that I do well on that test or that I got a good grade.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: That's a very like simple one that we've all had at some point Yeah.
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: When we were younger or maybe even currently.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: And so the question reads, how do you know when God is answering your prayers?
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: Hmm.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: Something so simple and yet so complex.
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: When I think of this, I like to think that sometimes we as as humans have a very specific idea of what God's answer to our prayers looks like.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: It's like, I got the thing this happened, done God's consis existence, confirmed my prayer worked.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: Awesome.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: I will keep praying.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: But I think that that's really not that simple.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: I also think that sometimes we have a tendency to only ask for things or only to pray when something is bad or when we really want something or feel like we need something.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: , which is not really how prayer is supposed to be used.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: Prayer is something that's supposed to be more constant, more present always in our lives.
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: I'm not the best at necessarily practicing that, but I know that it's like, oh, I shouldn't only pray when I'm sad or down or something bad is happening or something.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: I feel like something really needs to change.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: So I think also maybe we sort of set ourselves up to only expect certain results because we only pray at certain times for certain things and in certain cases.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: But what do you think Lee?
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: I would kind of, what we do with this podcast, we don't say we answer questions.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: We say we respond.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: And there are many prayers that I prayed as a child that I'm glad God didn't answer, or I'm glad that God responded in different ways.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: Like I'm, I remember being a kid and like wishing I was normal, wishing that I was like, didn't feel so different because I was, I was like figuring things out as a person.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: And you know, if, if God was that person that just answered your God was that entity that just answered your prayers that like, God, can you just make me be normal or make me be like everybody else, you know, that to me is not exactly how that works.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: God responds in the way in which, God, I don't know it.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: It's, it's one of those things that I'm not necessarily sure.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: We always know what the response to our prayers are and we might figure it out in that moment, or we might see it in the imminent future, but it could be, it could be a very long-term thing.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: And, and I'm not discounting prayer at all.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: I real, I believe in it.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: I believe in communicating with the divine in different ways.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not, I'm not necessarily sitting beside my bedside with my hands folded and praying every night, which if you do that, that's wonderful.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: But I think for me, finding ways of prayer that is not necessarily, that it's, you know, in some ways being your authentic self is a prayer to God someday.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: Some ways like expressing it in music or art or different ways that, that you kind of communicate in that way.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: It's, it, to me it's an ever-evolving thing.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: And so, but I also think the way in, in which God responds to us, you know, there's a, it could be an array of things.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: I don't, I don't think that God or prayer is transactional.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: I don't think that that is something that I adhere to.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: Like if I, if I'm like, oh, I'll do this if you just give me this, this and this, that, that kind of falls into transactional prayer that falls into kind of prosperity gospel.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: And so it's one of those things that prayer for me has evolved so much.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: But it really is dependent upon your context and who you are and, and all those things.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: Cuz there's many times where I prayed that I'm glad it wasn't what I prayed for.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: Uh, cuz you know, through those prayers though, I have found who I am and who God created me to be.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: And I think that is a response to that prayer is that, you know, I asked to be normal, but through a lot of like things and through a lot of reflection and spiritual practices, you know, I've come to, to see that that is like, the response to that is like being authentically who you are, who God created you to be.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: So it's, I don't think it's that simple God answering prayers.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: I think God responds to prayers, but not in a way that is sometimes obvious or that's completely one-sided or transactional.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: I think it's like a mutual dance in a way.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: There's a scene in the movie Bruce Almighty, I don't know, have you seen Bruce Almighty?
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: .
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: With Morgan Freeman and Jim Carey.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: And when Jim Carey's character Bruce gets the ability to to be God for like a day, he just, uh, he sees sort of like the inbox, this massive number of requests for in the form of prayers from people.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: And he just pretty much replies all and says yes to all of them.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: The problem is that many of these people prayed to win the lottery.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: So then they all won the lottery and they all got$17.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: And it was, and they were all super mad.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: They were blaming God and they were not happy.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: Which while humorous, and obviously it's a movie, but I appreciate sort of the perspective that that provides around your prayer isn't always gonna be answered the way that you expect, as you said, and the response may be something completely different.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: And also maybe you don't always, maybe you're praying for something, but maybe also you don't necessarily know exactly what it is you're looking for either.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: I think sometimes we go into prayer assuming like, we need this, I know what I need.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: I know what is needed.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: And sometimes what the response is is something more powerful than you had any, than you could have comprehended previously.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: And it's, it's almost like a conversation too.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: And I've found myself, I mean, if I'm driving for a long time, I will just talk either to myself or or to God or whoever might be listening.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: And so like, it's just, it really is a cathartic type thing too, I think for many people.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: And, and you know, I grew up very evangelical and we did pray a lot and some of that sticks with me.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: I've gleaned some of those things with me and some of that works for me.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: And I would never judge.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: I know sometimes in progressive circles we like, we can be judgy about like if people are praying in public at a fa at a dinner table or like at a restaurant or something like that, or you know, if people are, you find somebody praying like on the road or, or whatever, you could get pretty judgey, the progressive church.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: Can I just wanna say that.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: And but at the same time, many of us have gleaned that practice.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: Many of us have like have oh, grew up not necessarily being embarrassed by it, like being embarrassed about like praying to God in a, in somewhat of a public way.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: And I think that has taken me a while, like going to a very progressive seminary and I mean, and being in like reading about progressive theologies and things like that.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: Like sometimes, sometimes we intellectualize it so much so that prayer becomes, you know, we, we judge it and we think it's in many ways too evangelical, if that makes sense.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: But in my own journey and in my own upbringing, you know, I have gleaned from that that I have had to work not to be so embarrassed by my own need to, to be in prayer often and in, and in different ways.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: But I think that that for me, that has been a very rooted spiritual thing for me.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: And that has evolved.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: You know, I have added some things to my practices and taken away some things, but I just think that's how we grow and that's like the, the evolution of, of our prayer life.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: But I do think that's interesting cuz prayer can be used in very oppressive ways.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: And I get that and I've experienced it, but I think some ways that I have gleaned from it is that, you know, I'm not gonna be embarrassed by something that gives me what I need spiritually.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: And I hope people hear that.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Like, if you see people praying around a table, maybe that's what they need.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, now if they're praying for like, for y'all to pass the drag bill, that might be another thing.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: But I think if it's like a way of commun like being communal, if it's a way of like holding people up spiritually in your family, you know, we always prayed for each other and for health and all those things, and I don't, that's not necessarily a bad thing.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: So I'm glad for this question.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, me too.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: And folks, why don't you write in to Faith podcast at P C U S a.org and let us know what you think about prayer.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: How do you know or believe God is answering your prayers and what's your preferred way to pray?
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you and we're very excited for our guest.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: For our guest segment for this episode will be Dr.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: William Yu, who is the associate professor of American Religious and Cultural History at Columbia Theological Seminary.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: Dr.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: Yu gives us a really, really insightful discussion about the history of the historical role of the P C U S A and the sort in many church churches and denominations more broadly in perpetuating slavery and racism and ways that we can move forward as we're thinking about things like reparations.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: So we hope that you enjoy our conversation with Dr.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: William Yu.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: Well, joining us on the podcast on this episode is a very special guest.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: We have Dr.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: William Yu, who is associate professor of re American Religious and Cultural History at Columbia Theological Seminary.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: Dr.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: You welcome to the podcast.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: We're glad you're here.
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: Thank you for the invitation.
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: I'm glad to be here.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we're so grateful to have you with us because, uh, we understand that you have a book that came out relatively recently, uh, which is what kind of Christianity, a history of slavery and anti-black racism in the Presbyterian Church.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: And we have a question that's trying to help us think through and unpack and understand that history of slavery and racism within our, within our denomination.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: But this is applicable to many Christian denominations as well.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: So the question reads, what is the Presbyterian Church USA's complicity and historical role in perpetuating slavery and racism?
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: How do we acknowledge it and work towards a just equitable future, especially as we think about things like reparations?
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: That's a really, really big question, but I'm glad that we have you with us to help us think through it.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: Um, how, what would you give us to think about with regards to that?
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: Oh, thank you, uh, Simon and Lee.
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: That is, um, it is both a big and important question and I think my, my short answer and then my longer answer is, my short answer is, the Presbyterian Church USA is a denomination on the one hand that is approximately 40 years old.
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: If you, you think about the reunion, different denominations that were divided in the 19th century, but another answer is the Presbyterian church, u s A or P C U S A is a denomination with predecessor denominations that go back all the way into the colonial period as early as 1706.
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: So therefore, uh, the Presbyterian church u s a is or was, has responsibility for active complicity and direct participation in the enslavement of millions of black persons and the perpetuation of anti-black discrimination that persists into the present day.
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: So why now I'm gonna get into a little bit of the longer answer, Leon Simon.
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: So I think some historical interpretations may well suggest that Presbyterianism or the Presbyterian denominations from the 18th and 19th centuries were ensnared by the problem of slavery.
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: That it was as one historian of presbyterianism as written, it was an irrepressible conflict.
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: Presbyterians in some way were trapped under or in, and I find that interpretation problematic on a number of fronts.
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: I don't think Presbyterians were passively engaged in slavery.
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: In fact, Presbyterians, white Presbyterians, including not only individuals, but congregations owned enslaved persons.
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: So there you have it at a individual or congregational level, but when you broaden out a little bit at a denominational level, Presbyterians endeavored to protect, preserve, and perpetuate slavery, uh, indirect opposition to emancipation and liberation movements of abolitionists.
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: So that too is a part of Presbyterian history.
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: And so why I say that is certainly there were some Presbyterians, black and white who were among the noblest, fiercest and most passionate abolitionists of that time period.
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: But the reality is, in my findings, they are few and far between.
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: Most white Presbyterians were not abolitionists and war not advocating publicly for the immediate emancipation of enslaved Africans and African Americans.
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: Rather, they were actively complicit, whether in their silence or really in their efforts to preserve denominational unity, for example, at the general assembly level, which is where the highest body body, ecclesial body of the Presbyterian church to prevent more direct support and action for abolition.
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: One quick example, and then Simon and Lee will get to the other questions.
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: In 1836, the general assembly of the Presbyterian church in the United States of America, as they were called, they met in Pittsburgh and they were aware that there was some motivation and some movement for more direct action.
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: One disciplinary measure that was on the table, so to speak or proposed was suspension from the Lord's Supper or from the table we might call it, Hey, if you are an enslave or if you are supporting slavery, you cannot partake in communion, which is was and is a significant sacrament within the reform the Presbyterian tradition.
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: And so there was activity there at that general assembly to ensure that any kind of movement toward abolition would be squashed.
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: So ultimately, that general assembly decided that there would be an indefinite postponement of any decision or even discussion on slavery, and that persisted for many, many years.
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: So that's not an irrepressible conflict, that's not passive complicity, that is directing active participation to oppose abolition within the P C U S A, but take it out a little bit in also the United States of America.
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: So I hope I've answered at least the first part of your question.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: And, and I also wonder about a lot of the conversations that we also have.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: You know, we have so many church buildings and we have so much land and we have so much, I mean, it, I think it said like the church is the one of the biggest owners of land and the world and has a lot of property and, and has a lot of financial resources.
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: And so I wonder about that, that conversation too and h about how we are seeing the ways in which we benefit, we benefited and continue to benefit from the perpetuating these systems both financially within our denomination because not many people may know, but it is kind of a, I mean, all churches have a lot of money, but the Presbyterian church also has a lot of money.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: And so I wonder about that conversation too, of, of how we kind of understand this wealth that the church has, but in relationship to perpetuating slavery and also racism that we're seeing today as it deals with our finances.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: Because I do think that we kind of still are benefiting from it in a
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: Way.
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: Oh, Lee, yeah, thank you.
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: That's, um, that's another good and hard and I think complex, but not complicated question.
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: So the difference there, right, to me is sometimes we say, oh man, that's a really hard question.
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: How do you go back in time?
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: How do you figure that out?
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: That's all very complicated.
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: Uh, and then maybe it is, and maybe I'm parsing too much between these words, but sometimes we say that's complicated, so we're not gonna try.
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we're not gonna try to figure it out.
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: I do think there's complexity in that question and that there are multiple layers over mul, uh, over several centuries to get at the answer.
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: So let me try one to note is that, and I look carefully, I believe at the 1850 US census to look at where they had, um, not only membership, again, this is self-identifying denomination, self-reporting, but they had value of church property cumulative of different, uh, denominations.
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: And so there were considerably more Methodists and Baptists in the United States than, than there were Presbyterians.
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: But in terms of church property per member, if you were to do the Math Presbyterian, you are rightly to note that there was considerable wealth that I think only Episcopalians per capita or per member if you were to divide the value of church property by member had more.
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: The Presbyterians were.
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: And I am thinking of some, uh, foreign observers of the United States.
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: I think we lean a lot in my field of US history on Alexis de Tocqueville and there are others in democracy in America, Harriet Martin Noe, I think a pioneering English, uh, sociologist, one of the first women in that field.
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: And there's also a French Protestant pastor named Georges Fish.
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: And they wrote, and one thing they noted is that Presbyterians were the, in their view, the middle class kind of rising middle class denomination or tradition in the United States.
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: I think one of them said, this is where men of enterprise and initiative and of commerce are really finding their place.
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: And again, I say this Simon and Lee, not to say that all white Presbyterians in 1850 and the like were wealthy, that is an overgeneralization.
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: But it is to say that some were, um, and it is to say and to ask ourselves where did that wealth come from?
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: And it is to note, and what I find in the book is the economic centrality and the wealth that derived from this foundational sin of slavery was deep and profound.
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: Albert Barnes, uh, Philadelphia Presbyterian pastor, he did note, and he was an abolitionist, but he did note that slavery touches every institution.
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: Not only every bank, but every marketplace, every school, every church, every neighborhood.
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: And in part what other abolitionists then, and for example, economic historians today have noted that the wealth that came from slavery lied in its valuations of human property.
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: So Caitlin Rosenthal, I lean on her work, uh, I think it's entitled, accounting for Slavery, Dr.
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: Rosenthal, notes and ante be American Life, maybe even today, three things.
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: One needed, uh, for economic success were land, labor, and capital.
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: Like you were noting earlier, you need land and you also need labor, and you need capital.
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: But slavery was so wicked and so pervasive in that it provided the latter two of three.
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: It was not only labor, but it was capital because enslaved persons had a valuation and they could be sold or, and their children were owned by the Enslavers family.
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: And so for that reason, if you were to look at enslaved auctions in 18 50, 18 60, the value of one healthy, I think sometimes they called it in their prime enslaved black men or woman was somewhere between a thousand to$1,500.
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: That is the same as the average income of a middle class family.
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: So Lee and Simon, imagine what it is to, to have within one's wealth 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 enslaved persons.
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: And Lee, how does that get to the question of what was happening in the northern states?
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: Well, certainly the southern states were where the agricultural output was happening, but the northern states was where the manufacturing was happening.
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: And so southern, southern materials would come to northern states, and there, for example, cotton would be made into clothing that will be sold abroad and back to the southern states.
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: And for that reason, that foundational reality did create in some white northern Presbyterians or white Presbyterians in the northern states of real hesitance and reluctance to engage in liberation movements to eradicate slavery.
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: I share all this, and I know I'm getting a little bit into the, the data because it provides an explanation, uh, but not an excuse I share with my students at Columbia Seminary.
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: We are looking for explanations that do not excuse our ancestors of their sins, but explain why they sinned and how we can hold them and ourselves accountable to those sins.
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: So I hope that helps.
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: So ultimately, long-winded way, Lee, of saying the ways in which some of these congregations and some of these buildings were purchased are likely due to the unjust exploitative contributions of enslaved black persons, their labor, but also their valuations.
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: And again, just the pervasive wickedness of what slavery was.
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: So in any, for a lot of reasons actually, there was the recognition that to abolish slavery would be against our own economic self-interest.
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: But slavery is that wicked, that sinful, that oppressive and that wrong that it needs to be abolished.
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: And yet we know that there were a majority of Presbyterians that did not support immediate abolition.
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: So I hope that gets, we can talk some more about it.
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: What do you all think should be the response of, for example, Presbyterian congregations, not only in the southern states, but across the United States when thinking about how to, uh, correct, repent, confess, and do right in light of past sins.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: And that, and that's why I asked because like to, to, and, and we had, um, we've had guests on the talk about reparations and, and a and some, and a lot of the time it is like what you were saying, like we're not excusing, but we're trying to understand it in order that we may fully realize kind of the scope of it all.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: And I, and I don't think a lot of, and well, I hope that a lot of congregations can, can figure out their own histories because I don't, I don't think that a lot of congregations may know the extensiveness of this.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: I'm from South Carolina and you can go down one road in South Carolina and there are like eight Presbyterian churches that are old, they're, that are, well in our case, they're old, um, US standards.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: But within those, you can see the legacy of slavery within the architecture.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: You can see the legacy of all of these things and kind of, and just see how these things are perpetuating even within the architecture.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: And it is my hope that congregations and institutions of the church can understand fully and look back on how they themselves in their own context has perpetuated this.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: And that may o also open up a lot of conversations of how to repair that in a tangible way.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: And I love what you said about it is complex, but it's not what is the way you said it?
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: It's, it's not, it's complicated to understand, but it's not very complex when you get down to it.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: It is in the simplicity of it, it is a wicked sin.
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: Oh, yes.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: And that how we get there and, and, and how people have manipulated the system and things like that may be complicated, but the complexity of it is not there because it is simple a, a wicked and terrible sin that we are all kind of participating again.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: And I really like that because I feel like that's where people get lost sometimes We get lost in, in the detail when we need to understand it, but, and kind of take a step back and be like, this is the sin of it all is is kind of where our souls come into play and as people of faith, that's that's what we're here to do.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: I think so.
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so.
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: Can Lee, so, so one, um, one I think misconception, hmm, that we have in the 21st century is that we have tools of interpretation and sophisticated or more sophisticated ways of thinking and understanding than, for example, Presbyterian ancestors had in the 19th century, right?
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: Of course, what we know now about the brutalities and atrocities of slavery, of course it would result in human beings and particularly people of faith, not because people of faith are better or more humane, but because people of faith profess to have a higher calling and profess to be, because as a responsive being saved by God's grace through faith, we believe we have a call to act justly and to do what is right and even to be countercultural at time.
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: So it is a sense that of course, if they knew what we knew about slavery and racism, they would've acted differently.
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: So Simon and Lee, one way I struggle with that line of thinking, if you will, is I actually think you and I will never know the atrocities and the brutalities as intimately, as firmly as clearly as they did then.
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: Like I feel like I can read a thousand more primary source documents, for example, uh, the narratives or the autobiographies of formerly enslaved persons such as Sojourner Truth and Frederick Douglass and William Wells Brown.
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: I think I could read so many more of those and I still won't get it at the level they did because even a thousand primary source documents don't make a time machine.
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: So then this idea of trying to atone for or dismiss the sins of the past in that way of dated and know better, they were simply people of their age.
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: They were living in a less enlightened time, if you will.
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: I just, um, at one level I, intellectually I don't think that's right, but morally I'm troubled by that interpretive line of thinking.
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: What do y'all think about that?
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: Have you heard that?
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: Do you engage in those kind of conversations?
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: I think I really appreciate you bringing that up because I think it's something that pr particularly more modern or contemporary progressive Christianity sometimes, uh, runs into this issue in some ways.
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: I almost see this as a slight critique of of woke culture, for lack of a better word.
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: Uh, because we think, oh, we get it now, we understand it now we have this, this perspective or this enlightened understanding that we didn't have then and therefore we are somehow better able to empath, empathize better able to understand than back then or compared to other people who don't have this same type of knowledge or perspective.
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: But there's a, that's a really dangerous line of thinking because then one, you set yourself up to think that you already understand so many things, so then you don't have to interrogate it as much.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: And also I think it creates an issue where you are constantly angry, but you don't always have the tools or enough perspective to actually think about what true progress moving forward looks like.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: You're only pointing out flaws in other, in the systems and in other people's ways of thinking.
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: So I really appreciate you bringing that up.
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: And as I'm thinking about it in the context of this conversation, I'm wondering about the, about our denomination and other, other Christian churches and denominations trying to reconcile with this and move forward because as you said earlier, it's very easy to just sort of, you know, oh, that was back then and just sort of sweep it under the rug and say, we know it's bad, okay, moving on.
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: But it's like, no, we have to first acknowledge to adequately try to understand.
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: We will never fully understand as as, as you've said.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: But then as we try to move forward with things like rep reparations, reconciliation and what all of that looks like, I feel like that answer at times may also be complicated, but not complex, if that may.
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: And what I mean by that is we've had conversations about reparations previously and we'll continue to have conversations about reparations.
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: Um, but something that one of our colleagues, Jermaine Ross Allum, who is the director of the Center for Repair in the P C O S A, he said to us once was, you know, why don't we just ask the people or allow ourselves to be invited in by the people who are seeking reparations.
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: Ask them what it is they are actually, what do they seek reparations for?
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: Who do they say is accountable?
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: Because then reparations and injustice and reconciliation goes from being this abstract thing that seems impossible to a very, uh, what's the word I'm looking for?
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: It has, there's an outline for like, okay, so it's this group from this time.
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: This is the type of, uh, reparation or reconciliation that, that they're seeking moving forward.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: But you have to allow yourself to, to be invited into that conversation and to listen.
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: But it, again, it takes it from this very sort of abstract conversation to something that sounds much more doable, much more tangible.
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: But we have to be willing to do that work in the first place.
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: And I know that that's not always an easy answer.
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: I think sometimes it's also easy to say, oh, we'll throw money at the problem and hopefully it will just go away because we, we, we use that same wealth that we generated on the backs of black people, slaves and people of color, and then we'll just give some money back to them and hope that that makes it better.
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: But that's not true either.
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: There's an ongoing work that has to be done as well.
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: Um, and I, I think that this also gets complicated further when we think about the fact that as our denomination has gotten older, our denomination, while still being majority and predominantly white, we also have congregations that are not white.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: We have membership in our denomination that is not white.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: We have immigrant congregations and people who joined later.
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: And so as they come into this Presbyterian or, or hopefully into a more progressive faith tradition, trying to unpack that, I think our relationship to that ourselves is also now an added wrinkle in all of this.
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: Because, well, I, you know, I'm a person of color raised Presbyterian.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: What does it mean for me in my own, I've been using the word socio echolocation a lot lately because that's the only word I can think of.
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: But what does that mean for me as I am someone who, as a person of faith wants to support, promote, and be a part of ending racial injustice?
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: That part might be complicated, it may not, I don't know, but that may be complex as well.
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: But, um, I think I've given a long enough of a soap box, but I'd be curious to hear what you, what you think about some of those things.
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot there.
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: Thank you Simon.
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: Um, okay, so one observation about history and how, and memory, perhaps history and memory, how we remember the past.
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: I do think not only within Presbyterianism, but within other Christian traditions, that there is a desire to lift up the heroism of, uh, courageous leaders in the past.
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: For example, abolitionists such as John Rankin, a white pastor from Ripley, Ohio who was, uh, a leader of, um, one part of the Underground Railroad, I think over 2000 formerly en enslaved black persons escaping, if you will, for their freedom, uh, stayed at his home in route two freedom.
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: And so, and he was an outspoken critic of slavery and he is I think one of the several Presbyterian pastors who are honored in the national, uh, abolition hall of fame and museum.
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: It's in New York.
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: Uh, and there are also black abolitionists such as Theodore Wright, the first African American graduate of Princeton Seminary, class of 1828, James w c Pennington, the first student, uh, uh, African-American student at Yale Divinity School, though he never got a transcript or grades because of anti-black racism, uh, but that's where he was educated.
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: And later he became a Presbyterian pastor in New York.
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: So you have their heroism, but I think Simon, we also need to grapple with their criticism.
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: We need to grapple with how critical and how, um, even in sometimes abrasive and accusatory language, how deeply disenchanted, frustrated and how judgmental there were, they were of Presbyterian failures of the failure to be more active in movements for abolition and the failure to confront the sins of anti-black racism in northern states to failure to confront the ongoing perpetuation of slavery in the southern states.
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: So if we're gonna take both their heroism and criticism seriously and hold them in perhaps productive tension, I think that informs some of how we understand racial repair and trying to make right of harms in the past that have ongoing rever reverberations today.
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: So one thing I would ask, for example, congregations who have records, some clear, some you might have to hunt a little bit of members who owned enslaved persons and some who may well have worshiped together with them in, in their congregations, in their sanctuaries or in northern states before abolition or records of, for example, keeping free black Americans out of your churches.
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: So to look and see and to say, this happened, and then the next step would be, I think too many stop at the, this happened and we're gonna confess and acknowledge it and we may publish it on websites and in new revised church histories of our histories that are more honest.
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: But then it's to ask, when did we make these wrongs?
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: Did we make them right in 1870?
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: Did we make them right in 1920?
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: Did we make them right in 1970?
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: When have we made them right?
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: And if the answer is we haven't yet made it right, then that I would encourage is a task to do, how do we make it right?
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: In some context, it may well be making every faithful effort to identify the descendants of enslaved persons or discriminated persons that certain congregations and Lee use the other word, institutions that belong, are members affiliated with the Presbyterian church, u s a, that the descendants of families who were harmed.
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: And we make every faithful effort to identify and find these families and we offer material financial reparations.
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: I do think sometimes Leon Simon, that it is, um, there's a multiplicity of ways to, to make amends, to confess in action.
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: One is interpersonal, it is to acknowledge, to bring people together.
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: And I think we're seeing more of this, more of, um, like a combined or or across different congregations of different races meeting together to worship.
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: And I think that's a beautiful testimony.
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: So that's one and another.
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: It is spiritual, it is to confess, not only confess, what I mean by spiritual sins are, for example, and Presbyterian congregations across the United States and perhaps the world, we acknowledge our depravity and we lean on and utilize our book of confessions such as the Westminster Confession of Faith, second halve con confession, uh, Heidelberg catechism these confessions, and we recite them and we pray them together and we see gut's forgiveness in a corporate way on Sunday mornings.
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: So, but it is in addition to those corporate sins to acknowledge historic corporate sins, right?
• 51:58
  Speaker 3: That we were engaged in these atrocities and brutalities of kidnapping Africans from the African continent, the middle passage on overcrowded, what they call slave ships to the Caribbean in North America.
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: And we as a church capital C and in perhaps even lower KC in a congregation, we were responsible for the perpetuation of slavery.
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: And there were enslaved persons who worshiped here while being enslaved.
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: And so we need to make that right.
• 52:36
  Speaker 3: And I know I'm going over, but one concrete example, I think Simon, that's kind of what we're trying to get at.
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: So my seminary, the seminary where I teach Columbia Seminary in Decatur, Georgia, a stones throw from Atlanta, has just quite frankly, an awful record of active participation and sinful participation in slavery and anti-black racism, which includes certain funds in our endowment today that were enriched from the sale of enslaved persons.
• 53:12
  Speaker 3: So sometimes there was a, a donor, a patron who wanted to support Columbia Seminary, and 1834 is one example, 1845 is another.
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: And so they in some ways donated to, to Columbia Seminary, and this sounds working and perverse, but donated to Columbia Seminary, a certain number of their enslaved persons who will be sold, for example, in a public auction.
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: And those funds from the sale would go towards supporting Columbia Seminary.
• 53:40
  Speaker 3: So I do think in this case there are interpersonal, there are spiritual, and there are financial ways to make amends and repair.
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: And I think the interpersonal and the spiritual are trying to acknowledge, to confess and to do what's right.
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: We're offering a number of new scholarship programs to support current and future African American students.
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: We call it a commitment to repairing the breach.
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: But what Columbia Seminary has yet to do is to make material financial reparations.
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: Columbia has not yet made any effort, as far as I can tell, to identify the descendants of enslaved persons who were sold to enrich Columbia's endowment.
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: And I think Columbia can do this, and I think it can be done neither ostentatiously nor privately, but Simon and Lee simply matter-of-factly.
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: And I don't mean that in a pejorative way.
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: What I mean is to simply identify, make every effort to identify, find to confess and offer financial reparations are some figuring out from the endowment, looking at inflation and all of that from the 1830s and forties to the present and doing that.
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: I think that's one local specific example of how one P c u s a institution can have a, what we call holistic response to reparations.
• 55:08
  Speaker 3: Right now it is, there is positive movement, there are statements acknowledging past historic sins.
• 55:16
  Speaker 3: There are public records on websites from Columbia to note how Columbia was involved.
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: There are future commitments and present commitments to the flourishing of African-American, uh, students in theological education.
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: But I do think it is an inadequate response without if, if Columbia Seminary, if we really want to repair the breach, we also have to address and correct pass sins.
• 55:45
  Speaker 3: And maybe that's a good example, Leah Simon for other institutions as well.
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: Uh, that's really helpful.
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: And, and it, and it also is, as I'm hearing you talk, it's also it seems like doing that interior soul work of also like decentering our whiteness because I do, I do often hear about reparations in light of repairing like what white people have done, which is centering whiteness.
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: Not necessarily we are repairing and the reparations because of this is what has been, this is what has happened to our siblings who were enslaved.
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: Like there seems to be a, a, a, like a movement because of shame or a movement because it's now trendy to make these statements and it's trendy to say and recognize, you know, maybe on the public surface because now it's influencer material.
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: And, and, and I look on Instagram, I'll look on all the TikTok, and you see a lot of influencer in influe influencers, specifically white ones who are making these statements and who are saying these things and ne not necessarily in a way that is moving us forward and actually doing something.
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: And that's what I'm noticing a lot in our institutional spaces of fate, not in just this denomination, but in others that, you know, it's trendy kind of in a progressive sense to make these statements and to be woke and to do these things, but in, but we are also continuing to decent to center whiteness even within that, and even within the way in which we want to go about reparations.
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: So I wonder about that interior work that a lot of us as white members of the church, you know, as I'm seeing a lot of responses, it's kind of in a way to redeem the sins of our ancestors and not necessarily, you know, we are dealing with the systems and the sins that have impacted people of color for centuries in this country because of their humanity and not necessarily centering the shame and the white guilt and all these other things, if that makes sense.
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: So as you were talking, I was just thinking about that when you said the interior work and like that the way in which we propel to do this work, it just seems sometimes in progressive circles at least, that we are still centering whiteness even in our, even in the midst of doing the work of justice and having conversations about reparations.
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: It, it, it seems that way still.
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: And I wonder about that interior work too.
• 58:45
  Speaker 3: Oh, thanks Lee.
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: That's, um, that's a lot.
• 58:48
  Speaker 3: I, um, I do think, I don't know that I have a, a good answer to your observation and in some ways I can tell what na is too weak a word, but what really what you find unhelpful in, in some, uh, movements in predominantly white communities, including communities of faith for, uh, black reparations and racial justice, what I will say on centering whiteness or de-centering whiteness is I do think the denomination to which I belong and I'm just one voice in it, but I do think it would be productive to center blackness.
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: And Simon, we were talking earlier and you were talking about what it is to be a, a non-black person of color in the P C U S A I too am a non-black person of color in the P C U S A.
• 59:41
  Speaker 3: So why I say it would be helpful to center blackness, if you will, on Black Presbyterians is for one along with indigenous Presbyterians.
• 59:52
  Speaker 3: I do believe, I am convinced that these are foundational, uh, sins and systemic oppressive evils that need to be wrongs that need to be made, right.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 3: And so I believe if we can center, for example, black Presbyterians, unlike what you were saying earlier with, um, the leader for the new, uh, center for Repair, with the Presbyterian Mission Agency, Germaine, uh, Ross Allen, I do think it is to look carefully at Black Presbyterian history, including the present and to really honor it.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 3: And again, to honor both the heroism and the criticism.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 3: And to note one way I think all Presbyterians could get involved is, for example, I'm learning more about the both the desire and the need for historically Black Presbyterian congregations to, um, have installed pastors in their churches, which requires a certain level of level of financial investment.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 3: And so I think that's a way where all Presbyterians can be involved in supporting that, that that is an investment and that is one way to make what is wrong, right, at an interpersonal, at a spiritual, and a material financial way.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: Um, so that would be what I would hope to see more of, to really what it would look like if the P C U S A would center blackness in a way that is intersectional.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 3: I do think, and maybe I'll end with this, I know we're running on time and Simon, I bet this is something you and I could talk about for many more minutes, but I do think there is a way to center blackness that does not erase other presbyterians of color and other communities of color.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 3: I do think we worship a big God and we are continually ally and asking God to give us bigger hearts and minds.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 3: So in a way that honors celebrates, affirms, lifts up the convictions and the desires of black Presbyterians that also holds together the needs, desires, convictions, uh, and dreams of other presbyterians of color.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 3: I do think this is possible.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 3: I do think it's hard, um, but I think it's possible, and I actually think that's what needs to happen.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: So for me, if for example, for right now, if I were to invest 90% of my energy on working towards repair and justice among and with black Presbyterians, I would trust if this wrong, could be made somewhat more right, that the Black Presbyterian colleagues that I know and have, and even that I don't know, that they would then work towards o other wrongs from other communities of color that need to be made.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: I do think this is possible.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 3: Um, so, and it is my hope for our denomination, for those of us who are P C U S A, let's work together with and among Black Presbyterian leaders all across this country and world.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 3: I like how you all said it, uh, from Jermaine Ross Allen to ask what is happening in your community?
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 3: How are you, how you are understanding past oppressions and sins, not in a way that defines you as an object of oppression.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 3: You are a, you have dignity, you have humanity, you have wisdom, you have a voice, and you have a lot to say.
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 3: Black Presbyterians have a long legacy of fighting and striving for justice in the P C O S A.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: So it would be foolish for us not to center and listen and heed and do some of, if not all, of what they're recommending to us.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 3: Simon and Lee, I hope that makes sense in getting at some of the complexities around interracial or multicultural, if you will, kind of Presbyterian witness.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: No, that's super helpful.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: And something that Jermaine also said in a conversation with us is that we need to view reparations and reconciliation not as a, uh, we, we, we can't approach it as if these things are competitive, that justice for one community means that another community D doesn't get justice.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: That's because if we do that, we actually are perpetuating white supremacy,.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: Um, and so I appreciate how you outlined that, that again, we're doing this work together.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: That's, that's really helpful for myself and I, I, I'm sure for others to keep in mind.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: And we are so grateful for this conversation that we've been able to have with you on the podcast today.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: We'll be sure to have a link to your book in the show notes so that folks can check it out.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: And again, thank you so much for, for coming on the podcast.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: This has been such a, a rich conversation.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 3: Oh, thank you Simon.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Lee.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 3: It's a really honor, it's an honor to be here with y'all.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: Well, thanks everyone for listening to this episode of a matter of Fate, the Presby podcast.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: We want to thank Dr.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: Yu for being with us on this episode and for a great conversation about how we are called to dismantle systems of racism and to work towards reparations specifically in our churches because they too have perpetuated these systems.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: And so we are called to do that work.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: And so thank you to Dr.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: Yu for being with us.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: We also hope you subscribe wherever you get your podcast and we hope you leave us a review.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: We would love five stars.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: If you have any questions for us in the Fate podcast@pcua.org, also check at our website a matter of faith podcast.com.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: There you will find our Spanish Sibling podcast.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: And now we have our Korean Sibling Podcast on their two for our Korean siblings.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: And so check all of that out, and of course, we will talk to you again next week.