Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1134 - Australian Age-Based Social Media Bans Are Now Law [R]

Transcript

#1134 - Australian Age-Based Social Media Bans Are Now Law [R] · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:04
Speaker 1: It's their Happy Families podcast.
0:07
Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just
0:10
Speaker 2: wants answers Now.
0:14
Speaker 1: A few months ago, on The Happy Family's podcast, we
0:16
Speaker 1: talked about the proposed social media bands for children under
0:18
Speaker 1: the age of sixteen. If you missed the news on Friday,
0:21
Speaker 1: those bands were rushed through federal Parliament with bipartisan support.
0:24
Speaker 1: The opposition joined with the government to make sure that
0:26
Speaker 1: the bands, or the legislation for the bands would be
0:29
Speaker 1: carried it has been. Now I want to highlight at
0:33
Speaker 1: the outset this legislation. I think has been rushed. There
0:36
Speaker 1: are definitely some concerns with it, so much so that
0:38
Speaker 1: the National Children's Commissioner, Ann Hollands has written publicly about
0:41
Speaker 1: those concerns. Nevertheless, nevertheless, I think that they've done the
0:46
Speaker 1: right thing. Those other concerns can be sorted out in
0:49
Speaker 1: the wake in the aftermath of this. I know that
0:54
Speaker 1: there are concerns about government overreach. They've got to make
0:56
Speaker 1: sure they get this right so that adults are not penalized.
1:00
Speaker 1: We've got to be protecting children anyway. Like I said
1:02
Speaker 1: a little while ago, we discussed the proposed social media
1:04
Speaker 1: bands on the podcast, it's still relevant everything that I
1:07
Speaker 1: said I still agree with and I wanted to replay
1:09
Speaker 1: that episode for you to help you to consider how
1:11
Speaker 1: those new laws are going to affect your family. Twelve
1:13
Speaker 1: months till it all kicks off, but this will give
1:15
Speaker 1: you a good idea of what we're now in for.
1:24
Speaker 1: Australian kids are going to be blocked from social media
1:27
Speaker 1: until they reach a certain age under a national plant.
1:30
Speaker 1: It's target growing concerns around its impacts on young minds. Today,
1:35
Speaker 1: our conversation on the Happy Families podcast is about what
1:37
Speaker 1: the olben Ezy government is committing to in terms of
1:40
Speaker 1: legislation on social media age limits. This stems from South
1:45
Speaker 1: Australia's Peter Melanascus I hope he said said his name
1:48
Speaker 1: correctly making a lot of noise about this recently, there's
1:51
Speaker 1: been a lot of campaigns. I've been pushing it pretty
1:53
Speaker 1: hard myself and today on the podcast a conversation about this.
1:58
Speaker 1: There are some people who have compared potential restrictions on
2:00
Speaker 1: the technology to cigarettes and alcohol, because we're seeing more
2:04
Speaker 1: and more evidence that as social media is harmful to children.
2:08
Speaker 1: I was on a Current Affair with Ali Langdon and
2:10
Speaker 1: a bunch of other people last Tuesday night, and I
2:14
Speaker 1: want to share with you some clips from that as
2:16
Speaker 1: we go through this. But first off, a couple of
2:18
Speaker 1: things around this. We already do have social media age limits.
2:22
Speaker 1: It's supposed to be thirteen and up. The thing is
2:26
Speaker 1: nobody's keeping it. Nobody's well, I shouldn't say nobody. The
2:29
Speaker 1: overwhelming majority of people are not sticking with those age limits.
2:32
Speaker 1: I had a dad recently who had a seven year
2:34
Speaker 1: old on TikTok, and dad said, is that okay? Or
2:37
Speaker 1: should I get them off? I was like, no, no, no,
2:38
Speaker 1: they need to be off. There is a reason that
2:40
Speaker 1: thirteen is the minimum age for access to these social platforms.
2:45
Speaker 1: And unfortunately that reason, while it's thirteen is better than seven,
2:50
Speaker 1: it's got nothing to do with your children's well being.
2:53
Speaker 1: It's got nothing to do with your children's cognitive or
2:55
Speaker 1: psychological or emotional capacity to deal with what's happening on
2:58
Speaker 1: social media. If we were taking those things into consideration,
3:01
Speaker 1: a lot of adults would not be allowed on social media.
3:04
Speaker 1: So why the age of thirteen as it now exists.
3:07
Speaker 1: Let's start there. Back in the late nineteen nineties, before
3:10
Speaker 1: social media was a thing, the tech companies were lobbying
3:14
Speaker 1: the United States Congress. Most of the tech companies, of course,
3:17
Speaker 1: are based in the United States. They were lobbying Congress
3:20
Speaker 1: because the US Congress is where the legislative requirements for
3:23
Speaker 1: what they do are centered around what the age of
3:27
Speaker 1: Internet maturity should be. And Congress basically said, well, what
3:30
Speaker 1: are you asking for, And they said, well, we're going
3:32
Speaker 1: to be collecting personal data about the people who are
3:34
Speaker 1: using our products when they're using them on the Internet,
3:36
Speaker 1: on this new world Wide Web thing that's been developed.
3:39
Speaker 1: Congress said, well, age of a data collection for personal
3:42
Speaker 1: private details should probably be somewhere between sixteen and eighteen.
3:46
Speaker 1: And the lobbyists, because they have deep pockets and because
3:49
Speaker 1: not all politicians are focused primarily on what is the
3:52
Speaker 1: common good, Well, the lobbyists one and the age of
3:55
Speaker 1: twelve was decided, so twelve and under not allowed to
3:58
Speaker 1: collect data. Thirteen and up. Tech companies collect data. That's
4:01
Speaker 1: the only reason at thirteen is the number that's been selected.
4:05
Speaker 1: Of course, over time we've seen massive changes in technology
4:09
Speaker 1: and social media is at the very core of this conversation.
4:14
Speaker 1: What's cure is to me around this is that we've decided,
4:18
Speaker 1: thanks to people like Jonathan Hate who wrote The Anxious Generation,
4:21
Speaker 1: and many other people who have been waving the flag
4:23
Speaker 1: and saying this is bad for our kids. We've decided
4:26
Speaker 1: that that age needs to be lifted, but we don't
4:28
Speaker 1: really have great information, We don't have great evidence for
4:31
Speaker 1: what it should be. The federal government has bipartisan support
4:34
Speaker 1: on raising the age. That is Anthony Alberenzi and the
4:37
Speaker 1: Labor Party have Peter Dutton and the Liberal Party on board.
4:41
Speaker 1: That's fantastic, right. It means that whoever gets voted in
4:43
Speaker 1: next year, we're going to start to see some changes
4:46
Speaker 1: around this regardless. And on an issue like this, this
4:50
Speaker 1: shouldn't come down to politics. This should come down to
4:52
Speaker 1: the safety of our children. So well done to both
4:54
Speaker 1: the major parties on this particular issue. The issue though,
4:58
Speaker 1: becomes what a is going to be the legal requirement,
5:02
Speaker 1: and that has not been identified. Neither the opposition nor
5:05
Speaker 1: the government have told us that, but the whispers are
5:08
Speaker 1: that it's going to be somewhere around about sixteen. Now.
5:11
Speaker 1: Our experience in our happy families family with me and
5:15
Speaker 1: Kylie and our six daughters has told us that this
5:18
Speaker 1: is a thing. We can look at data all day
5:21
Speaker 1: long and darted certainly points in the direction that some
5:24
Speaker 1: children really do struggle and suffer as a result of
5:27
Speaker 1: social media. But when we've watched what happens with our children,
5:31
Speaker 1: I think that's been the big thing. I said this
5:34
Speaker 1: on a current affair. The American thinker and writer and
5:39
Speaker 1: academic Jonathan Hayite wrote a book called The Anxious Generation,
5:42
Speaker 1: and in that book he talks about how, over the
5:43
Speaker 1: last couple of decades, we've moved from what you would
5:46
Speaker 1: call a play based childhood to a screen based childhood,
5:51
Speaker 1: and what, unfortunately we see across our young people is
5:56
Speaker 1: a decline in well being because they really truly believe
6:00
Speaker 1: that they're getting their needs met by being on that screen.
6:04
Speaker 1: It's a hollow imitation, but it makes them feel so
6:07
Speaker 1: good in the moment, and so any parent who's trying
6:11
Speaker 1: to have some sort of boundaries and limits around this
6:14
Speaker 1: will come up against tremendous opposition because to the kids,
6:17
Speaker 1: it just feels so so good. What we've seen in
6:22
Speaker 1: our family and in the families of those that we're
6:24
Speaker 1: close to, is that kids get less sleep. They're sleep deprived,
6:26
Speaker 1: so they're more moody and irritable. They're more likely to
6:28
Speaker 1: be withdrawn. They're less likely to be social and engaged
6:31
Speaker 1: with the family or even with their friends. The connections
6:33
Speaker 1: that they have online are shallow and hollow relative to
6:36
Speaker 1: the connections that we have face to face and in
6:40
Speaker 1: real life rather than in the virtual world. There's academic outcomes,
6:44
Speaker 1: there's an academic slide when kids are focused on their screen.
6:47
Speaker 1: And every parent that I talk to, literally every parent says, yeah,
6:50
Speaker 1: attitude changes when the kids have been on screens too long.
6:53
Speaker 1: When they go outside and they get some nature into
6:54
Speaker 1: their lives, they suddenly become nicer people. I think that
6:58
Speaker 1: I would sum it up by saying, there is an
7:01
Speaker 1: urgency around protecting young minds, and that's why this legislation matters.
7:07
Speaker 1: I feel like we've lost the generation. Does it discriminate
7:12
Speaker 1: or is everybody affected you there's a huge amount of discrimination.
7:15
Speaker 1: What research seems to show, and it's fairly fledgling research,
7:18
Speaker 1: it's quite nascent, but research seems to show that kids
7:22
Speaker 1: who have a really strong, positive, healthy life outside the
7:26
Speaker 1: screen seem to do reasonably well when they're on screens
7:29
Speaker 1: as well. But kids who have any kinds of offscreen struggles,
7:33
Speaker 1: they retreat to their screens and that only amplifies and
7:36
Speaker 1: exacerbates the offscreen struggles, but it also invites a whole
7:39
Speaker 1: lot of other challenges because they're so embedded in their
7:42
Speaker 1: screen life, their social media life. Yeah, a lot of people,
7:46
Speaker 1: and this was one of the things that came up
7:47
Speaker 1: on a current affair. I want to play you this snippet. Well,
7:50
Speaker 1: I'd love to bring in Gabby and Matilda here. I
7:53
Speaker 1: want you to explain to me your relationship with social
7:57
Speaker 1: media and your phone.
7:58
Speaker 2: I think, honestly, I'm pretty good relationship with social media
8:01
Speaker 2: on my phone. Obviously, it is a big part of
8:04
Speaker 2: my life, as it is a lot of other young people.
8:06
Speaker 2: But I think the main use that I use it
8:08
Speaker 2: for is connecting with my friends and family, and I
8:11
Speaker 2: think that it allows me to have that connection even
8:15
Speaker 2: if I'm not physically there with them.
8:16
Speaker 1: So, Gabby, do you think you have a healthy relationship
8:19
Speaker 1: with social media.
8:20
Speaker 3: I think it's fairly healthy. I do use my phone
8:23
Speaker 3: quite a bit, but I do set limits on there
8:26
Speaker 3: as well, because I know I need to try to
8:28
Speaker 3: regulate myself. I mean, every now and then I do
8:31
Speaker 3: find myself in that dreaded doom scroll and just scrolling
8:35
Speaker 3: and only just that, but I think it's mostly healthy. Yeah,
8:39
Speaker 3: I'm mostly just talking to friends having a good time.
8:42
Speaker 2: Now.
8:43
Speaker 1: When I listen to those two wonderful girls, what I
8:45
Speaker 1: hear stories of self regulation. I hear examples of self
8:50
Speaker 1: awareness and a willingness to pause, think about the way
8:53
Speaker 1: that these tools and technologies are being used, and then
8:57
Speaker 1: be intentional moving forward. They're really good examples of why
9:02
Speaker 1: this ban or why this change might be problematic. And
9:06
Speaker 1: I want to, like, I'm really upfront about it. I
9:08
Speaker 1: don't think that this is necessary for everybody, in the
9:11
Speaker 1: same way that I don't think that gambling laws are
9:14
Speaker 1: necessary for everybody, or alcohol laws are necessary for everybody.
9:20
Speaker 1: Why because there's plenty of people that honestly, they love
9:23
Speaker 1: to gamble. I mean, I think gambling it's not for me.
9:27
Speaker 1: I've never even put a dollar into the Poky's or
9:29
Speaker 1: had a punt on the Melbourne Cup. I'm not a gambler.
9:32
Speaker 1: I've got other things that I would rather do with
9:34
Speaker 1: my cash. But I know several people who gamble. They
9:39
Speaker 1: love it, and they don't have a problem with it.
9:41
Speaker 1: There's no there's no hiding, there's no huge financial loss.
9:44
Speaker 1: They really they set aside some money and they go
9:46
Speaker 1: to the casino or they go to the races and
9:49
Speaker 1: they have fun and it makes it more fun for them.
9:52
Speaker 1: I get that. I don't endorse it, I don't encourage it,
9:54
Speaker 1: but I get it. And it's the same with alcohol.
9:57
Speaker 1: In spite of that, though, we still have laws around that.
10:00
Speaker 1: Why because we know that harm is done to too
10:03
Speaker 1: great a percentage of the population if we don't have laws.
10:07
Speaker 1: An obstacle to the laws is that many people can
10:09
Speaker 1: do it safely and it's unfair for them. I get
10:12
Speaker 1: that when it's well used, it makes sense, but we've
10:16
Speaker 1: got to draw a line in the sand. And when
10:18
Speaker 1: we draw that line in the sand, it gives parents
10:21
Speaker 1: the power to say to their kids, I know you
10:23
Speaker 1: want this, I know it matters to you, but guess
10:25
Speaker 1: what the government said, No, it's actually against the law.
10:37
Speaker 1: Another obstacle is that big tech are probably going to
10:40
Speaker 1: mount legal challenges to it. The technology is everywhere, it's pervasive,
10:43
Speaker 1: so it's going to be really hard to get people off.
10:45
Speaker 1: It's to be it's going to be one of those
10:47
Speaker 1: things that's a really big challenge, and parents are going
10:50
Speaker 1: to have to be responsible, I mean, enforceability on this
10:53
Speaker 1: is going to be very, very tricky. I believe that
10:56
Speaker 1: what's really going to be necessary is that technology will
10:59
Speaker 1: need to be developed once the legislation is passed, where
11:02
Speaker 1: there's some sort of neutral third party so that we're
11:05
Speaker 1: not giving our personal details to the tech platforms, but
11:09
Speaker 1: there's a government built technology third party platform that communicates
11:14
Speaker 1: with the tech platforms. So we prove our identity through
11:18
Speaker 1: the government platform, and then the government sends through the
11:20
Speaker 1: little blue tick or the little green tick to the
11:22
Speaker 1: tech platform that says this person is who they say
11:25
Speaker 1: they are and they are of age to me. That's
11:28
Speaker 1: what I think the tech will needs to be. That's
11:30
Speaker 1: going to take years to develop, which means that we
11:34
Speaker 1: still have to deal with this stuff at home in
11:36
Speaker 1: our living rooms with our kids until this gets sorted out.
11:40
Speaker 1: The thing is this matters. I mean, this really matters
11:43
Speaker 1: for the well being of our children and young people.
11:45
Speaker 1: This matters. Social media is the new smoking, and just
11:48
Speaker 1: like it took decades for all the data to be
11:49
Speaker 1: collected so that we could really look at this and
11:51
Speaker 1: say smoking is killing people, this is bad for you,
11:54
Speaker 1: It's going to take a while yet before we have
11:56
Speaker 1: all the data that we need to move in this direction,
12:00
Speaker 1: but I throw a big haymaker on a current affair.
12:03
Speaker 1: This is what I had to say about what the
12:05
Speaker 1: tech company is responsible for. I can't help but think
12:08
Speaker 1: that Zuckerberg and the CEOs, the titans of social media industry,
12:14
Speaker 1: are responsible for more human suffering among our young people
12:17
Speaker 1: today than pretty much at any point in human history.
12:20
Speaker 1: I just don't think that there's been any kind of
12:22
Speaker 1: technology that's created this level of suffering in our youth.
12:25
Speaker 1: It's absolutely abysmal. And if I can say this a
12:29
Speaker 1: little bit directly, our feckless politicians who have allowed this
12:33
Speaker 1: to happen at a global level have got a lot
12:35
Speaker 1: of it, a lot to answer for as well the
12:37
Speaker 1: lack of legislation around this. We're just going to introduce
12:41
Speaker 1: this thing and will find proof of harm later. I
12:44
Speaker 1: think that we need to be able to prove that
12:45
Speaker 1: there's a good here before we let people just go
12:48
Speaker 1: for it. And these stories, especially Kim's story, highlight what
12:52
Speaker 1: so many parents are telling me, and that is that
12:54
Speaker 1: social media as a general issue is absolutely at the
12:59
Speaker 1: heart out of so much sleep deprivation, so much conflict,
13:02
Speaker 1: so much school avoidance, so much bullying, so much mental
13:06
Speaker 1: health challenge, and the list goes on and on and on.
13:10
Speaker 1: Jonathan Hate says this best when he describes in his
13:13
Speaker 1: book The Anxious Generation that we've moved from a play
13:15
Speaker 1: based childhood to a screen based childhood, and obviously I
13:21
Speaker 1: emphasize that on a current affair as well. Beyond this, though,
13:24
Speaker 1: there are a couple of other things that we need
13:25
Speaker 1: to consider, and I really hope the government are going
13:28
Speaker 1: to do this. They've indicated that they want to hold
13:30
Speaker 1: tech companies accountable for the full spectrum of harm that
13:33
Speaker 1: happens on social media platforms because they facilitate and allow
13:39
Speaker 1: scams and fake news and body shaming and other harmful
13:45
Speaker 1: practices that I won't go into in this podcast. I
13:47
Speaker 1: want to keep it reasonably light. I know it's a
13:49
Speaker 1: very policy discussion today. It's a bit wonky from a
13:53
Speaker 1: policy perspective, but the government is doing the right thing here.
13:57
Speaker 1: I don't really like government interference. Really think that people
14:00
Speaker 1: should be left to make up their own mind about
14:02
Speaker 1: most things and make their own decisions as much as possible.
14:06
Speaker 1: But I also recognize that there is a need for
14:08
Speaker 1: government intervention and if companies cannot adhere to appropriate practices,
14:14
Speaker 1: that consider the well being of our population. We need
14:17
Speaker 1: to make sure that there are rules for those who
14:19
Speaker 1: are going to conduct business in Australia. They're going to
14:22
Speaker 1: take responsibility for the social and the commercial damage that
14:25
Speaker 1: they cause, the emotional, the psychological damage that they cause.
14:28
Speaker 1: I just think this matters so much. So what do
14:32
Speaker 1: we do right now? Is there anything else that I
14:33
Speaker 1: need to bring up and talk about? Just two things
14:36
Speaker 1: beyond those age limits, which is what I've just talked about.
14:39
Speaker 1: What I would encourage you to do as a parent
14:42
Speaker 1: is to jump online and send an email, like literally
14:44
Speaker 1: a three line email to your government representative and just
14:49
Speaker 1: say I heard this on a podcast, I read it
14:51
Speaker 1: in the news. I just want to say I'm right
14:53
Speaker 1: behind this. I want to see this happen for the
14:56
Speaker 1: safety of my kids and for the safety of our
14:58
Speaker 1: society's kids. If you just send them that email, it
15:01
Speaker 1: will take you about two minutes to do it. Just
15:04
Speaker 1: that will make a difference. Why because it raises their
15:08
Speaker 1: awareness of what their constituency wants. In addition, though, because
15:13
Speaker 1: this will take a while, it's got to be legislated.
15:15
Speaker 1: The legislation has got to be built, it's got to
15:16
Speaker 1: be put together. Well, there's going to be challenges to it.
15:19
Speaker 1: Once it finally gets through, technology is going to have
15:21
Speaker 1: to be developed. This will not be a quick thing.
15:23
Speaker 1: This is going to take a few years a few
15:25
Speaker 1: years to get off the ground. In the meantime, we've
15:28
Speaker 1: got to protect our kids, which means that while we
15:31
Speaker 1: need government to do the heavy lifting around the legislative challenges,
15:35
Speaker 1: we've actually got to put it into place in our homes.
15:38
Speaker 1: That tells me that if you've got a seven year
15:40
Speaker 1: old that wants to be on TikTok, you need to
15:42
Speaker 1: say no, or if you've got a twelve year old,
15:44
Speaker 1: say no. I've got a website where I'm not trying
15:46
Speaker 1: to sell you anything. It's literally just a website that
15:48
Speaker 1: says we need to unplugged childhood. The website's called Unplugged
15:53
Speaker 1: Childhood dot org. I'll link to it in the show notes.
15:56
Speaker 1: Unplug childhood dot org. A couple of really simple principles
16:00
Speaker 1: that are there. Number One, we want to remember that
16:04
Speaker 1: kids don't need smart phones, they need smart parents, and
16:07
Speaker 1: smart parents give their kids dumb phones. Your children don't
16:11
Speaker 1: need to be on social media, they don't need to
16:12
Speaker 1: have all of the functionality and accessibility of a supercomputer
16:15
Speaker 1: in their pocket. They just need a dumb phone if
16:18
Speaker 1: you're concerned for their safety or you want them to
16:19
Speaker 1: be able to contact you if something's going on and
16:21
Speaker 1: they're not going to be in your presence. Number two,
16:25
Speaker 1: keep kids off social media for as long as you can.
16:29
Speaker 1: I would recommend that you just practice the delayed principle.
16:32
Speaker 1: Talk to them about the things that I've talked about
16:34
Speaker 1: on the podcast today and let them know you want
16:36
Speaker 1: them to wait until they're at least thirteen, but you
16:39
Speaker 1: prefer it to be fourteen or fifteen or sixteen, and
16:41
Speaker 1: you might even come up with some incentives in some
16:43
Speaker 1: ways that you can help them to do that and
16:45
Speaker 1: still feel like they're not missing out, because that fear
16:48
Speaker 1: of missing out is massive, Which brings me to the
16:50
Speaker 1: third and final point. The easiest way to do that
16:52
Speaker 1: is to build a great community with the other parents
16:55
Speaker 1: that are involved, the parents who are the parents of
16:59
Speaker 1: kids You're children are friends with. Gee I said that
17:01
Speaker 1: in a challenging way. Let me try that again. Your kids' friends.
17:05
Speaker 1: Talk to their parents, create some community, get to know them,
17:08
Speaker 1: send them texts, arrange for the kids to get together,
17:10
Speaker 1: send them down to the park, make sure that everybody
17:12
Speaker 1: knows where they are, give them some freedom, let them
17:14
Speaker 1: go back to a play based childhood for as long
17:17
Speaker 1: as possible. That's what I was trying to say. More
17:20
Speaker 1: information is available at Unplugged childhood dot org. Look, this
17:24
Speaker 1: is a good news story. It's going to take a while.
17:26
Speaker 1: I don't think anything's going to happen in a hurry.
17:28
Speaker 1: But we've got a government who is finally saying we
17:31
Speaker 1: will stand up to technology companies. We will legislate, We're
17:33
Speaker 1: going to stop being feckless. We're going to stop cow
17:35
Speaker 1: telling to the big tech and start doing something to
17:38
Speaker 1: protect children and young people. There will be people who
17:40
Speaker 1: are opposed to it, and they'll make good arguments, many
17:43
Speaker 1: of which I'm sympathetic to. But ultimately I think that
17:46
Speaker 1: the greater good, the common good of our children, needs
17:48
Speaker 1: to come first. And that's where we're up to right now.
17:52
Speaker 1: In terms of this news. Tomorrow on the Pod school
17:57
Speaker 1: Readiness how to prep your kids for big school if
17:59
Speaker 1: you've got a little one who is off for their
18:00
Speaker 1: first year of school next year, we're talking with Zoe Rag.
18:03
Speaker 1: Zoe Rags, an educator who specializes in this very thing.
18:08
Speaker 1: That's on the Happy Families podcast, which is produced by
18:10
Speaker 1: Justin Rulin from Bridge Media.