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The Only Witness: A History of the Shroud of Turin · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece.
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Speaker 2: Guys, thank you for being with me. I know this
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Speaker 2: is a departure from our usual analysis of murder trials
0:21
Speaker 2: and high stakes games lawyers play in court criminal investigations.
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Speaker 2: I want to talk to you about an investigation of
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Speaker 2: a different sort. I want to talk to you about
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Speaker 2: the truth of the Shroud of Teuran. And I'll tell
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Speaker 2: you why, because today a phenomenal book has hit the market.
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Speaker 2: I already got up this morning and got it on
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Speaker 2: Amazon in kindle form. It's called The Only Witness, and
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Speaker 2: I want to show you the picture of the front
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Speaker 2: of it. The Only Witness a History of the Shroud
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Speaker 2: of Turan, and it is written by a friend and colleague,
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Speaker 2: Gui Powell. I have known Gai for many many years
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Speaker 2: through our Sunday school class that he led for years,
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Speaker 2: and when I heard he was writing this book, I
1:27
Speaker 2: was so happy because when I first heard learned about
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Speaker 2: the Shroud of Turan as a Christian, or try to
1:36
Speaker 2: be a Christian, a seeker, I'm more of a seeker
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Speaker 2: of Christ. I was so thrilled. And it was many
1:46
Speaker 2: many years ago that I learned about the Shroud of Tehran.
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Speaker 2: And then there were the debunkers, and I've got to
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Speaker 2: tell you, I almost wished I hadn't heard what they said,
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Speaker 2: because I wanted very much to believe that the Shroud
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Speaker 2: of Turin was real. Whether it is or isn't changes
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Speaker 2: nothing about the resurrection. Now apparently the debunkers have been debunked.
2:10
Speaker 2: What is the truth with me? Is Guy Powell, author
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Speaker 2: of The Only Witness, A History of the Shroud of Turan. Guy,
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Speaker 2: I'm so happy to get to speak to you.
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Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Nancy, And I really like your
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Speaker 3: introduction because back in nineteen seventy eight is when I
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Speaker 3: really first learned about it. There was a I can't
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Speaker 3: remember it for the time, or a Life magazine article
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Speaker 3: that I said, Wow, what's that. I'd never heard of that,
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Speaker 3: and that then kind of got me interested in it.
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Speaker 3: And then when you talk about the debunkers, that was
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Speaker 3: nineteen eighty eight when a handful of scientists and laboratories
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Speaker 3: did some radiocarbon testing on it and they came out
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Speaker 3: at the end and said that the shroud is from
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Speaker 3: dates from twelve sixty to thirteen ninety. And then at
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Speaker 3: that moment, then you know, I heard that and I said,
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Speaker 3: oh my god, it's fake.
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Speaker 2: You know, wait just a minute, guy Powell, we don't
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Speaker 2: say omg on ng.
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Speaker 3: Ah. Okay, thank you. So so in anyway, in any
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Speaker 3: case they said the shroud is fake, it was. They
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Speaker 3: said they flogged it, they faked it.
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Speaker 2: And oh wait, just talk right there. Yeah. Have you
3:37
Speaker 2: ever seen those movies where there is like an evangelical
3:42
Speaker 2: pastor and you can't see me, but I'm using air
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Speaker 2: quotes when I say pastor and they're healing people and
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Speaker 2: they turn out to be a big fraud. Or when
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Speaker 2: you hear about a pastor or a preacher that is
3:54
Speaker 2: like cheated on his wife, and I say he is,
3:57
Speaker 2: there are female pastors. In fact, our church is about
3:59
Speaker 2: to get a female pastor. They cheat on the wife
4:05
Speaker 2: and with all these ladies. I remember a case I
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Speaker 2: covered at Court TV. It was the case of Rabbi
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Speaker 2: Fred Neilander, and he was a renowned rabbi. I believe
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Speaker 2: he was saying, hey, sid could you look. I think
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Speaker 2: he was in Cherry Hill, anywhere, somewhere really rich where
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Speaker 2: all the rich people are, and this very very tony synagogue, cheating, cheating,
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Speaker 2: Cheery Hill. Okay, yeah, and I'm getting there. Wait a minute.
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Speaker 2: You know, you know how I go off in tangents sometimes.
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Speaker 2: So he killed his wife. Long story short, and I
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Speaker 2: remember listening to his son speaking. You know, when something
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Speaker 2: to do with our Judeo Christian heritage is debunk or
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Speaker 2: they take a chink in the armor, I just feel
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Speaker 2: like it's fodder for naysayers. And when I heard the
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Speaker 2: Shroud of Turin was a fake, I'm like, oh, that's
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Speaker 2: a black eye. That's another black eye for us. I mean,
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Speaker 2: so I was very I was disappointed when I heard that.
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Speaker 2: You know, justice when anything to do with our beliefs,
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Speaker 2: even when our government, for Pete's sake, when you find
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Speaker 2: out that there has been some sort of wrongdoing and
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Speaker 2: the highest arena within our government, it's a kick in
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Speaker 2: the teeth. Or when I hear about a cop, a
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Speaker 2: dirty cop coming from l E. Law enforcement, I take
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Speaker 2: it really personally. So this means a lot to me. Guy,
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Speaker 2: Now you're saying that when you heard about the shout
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Speaker 2: of tearing back in the seventies, Okay, pick it up
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Speaker 2: from there.
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Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. So there was a group of scientists that
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Speaker 3: went over and their primary purpose was to determine what
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Speaker 3: made that image on there and the team was made
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Speaker 3: up of religious folks, so Protestants and Catholics. That had
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Speaker 3: a couple of Jews on there, and I had a
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Speaker 3: couple of atheists. And when they got done studying the
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Speaker 3: shroud of one hundred and twenty consecutive hours over five
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Speaker 3: days straight, all of them came back and they said,
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Speaker 3: this is not a painting. It has not died, it
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Speaker 3: has not stained. It is something that they have never
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Speaker 3: seen before, that it is not you know, probably or
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Speaker 3: most likely not created by the hands of man. That
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Speaker 3: was kind of their conclusion.
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Speaker 2: Now let me understand, so this is the group that
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Speaker 2: d bunked the d bunkers, Well, this is.
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Speaker 3: Actually no, this is actually before that. And one of
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Speaker 3: the tests that they wanted to run at that time
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Speaker 3: and they weren't allowed to was a radio carbon dating.
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Speaker 3: And the problem with radio carbon dating.
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Speaker 2: Like carbon fourteen is that what you're saying, carbon fourteen.
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Speaker 3: That's exactly right, radio carbon dating using carbon fourteen. And
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Speaker 3: the problem with that is that it is a destructive test.
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Speaker 3: So you have to take a sample out of the shroud.
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Speaker 3: You have to cut a sample out of the shroud,
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Speaker 3: and it's like, you know, that's a if this is
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Speaker 3: truly the relic that is the Burial o'clock or Jesus Christ.
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Speaker 3: You don't want to touch it and you don't want
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Speaker 3: to cut anything out of it. And so it took
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Speaker 3: another ten years in nineteen eighty eight when samples were
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Speaker 3: actually cut under a lot of scrutiny, but also done
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Speaker 3: it cut incorrectly. Where they took those samples from was
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Speaker 3: not agreed was not the agreed on places. And so
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Speaker 3: they did the testing and as I mentioned before, the
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Speaker 3: results of that testing were that the date of the shroud,
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Speaker 3: according to that test, was twelve sixty to thirteen ninety.
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Speaker 2: It's very difficult. From my scientific background. I deal with
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Speaker 2: DNA data, hard data every day. It's very hard for
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Speaker 2: me to reject carbon fourteen dating.
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Speaker 3: Exactly exactly. And so for probably twenty years, the research
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Speaker 3: on the shroud kind of fell apart, and you know,
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Speaker 3: everything went dark. There wasn't really much done. There was
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Speaker 3: a lot of you know, a lot of depression about
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Speaker 3: the you know, hey, what are we doing now? It's
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Speaker 3: fake And yet we don't know how that image was made,
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Speaker 3: This wonderful image of this man that clearly suffered was crucified.
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Speaker 3: And then this cloth somehow picked up an image of that.
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Speaker 3: And then it was only recently and I don't remember
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Speaker 3: exactly the date now that the raw data that went
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Speaker 3: into the carbon fourteen testing that the raw data was
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Speaker 3: made public and it was it was made public by
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Speaker 3: the British Museum only at the at the urging and
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Speaker 3: the constant urging by a handful of people and in
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Speaker 3: particular one Tristane Costabianca, and he got the data and
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Speaker 3: found out that they had they had flogged it. They
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Speaker 3: had flogged the data that they used, and there's some
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Speaker 3: statistical tests that are done and without getting into the
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Speaker 3: details of that, they purpet well, it is believed that
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Speaker 3: they purposefully flogged the data using their word and they
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Speaker 3: did not follow the statistical rigor that would need to
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Speaker 3: be done on the results that they got, and yet
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Speaker 3: they published it anyway. And it's now as that now
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Speaker 3: has because I mean coming to light and you know
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Speaker 3: here over the last few years that now there's d bunker,
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Speaker 3: these three de bunkers, these labs have now been debunked.
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Speaker 3: And that's one test that.
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Speaker 1: They did as well, Prime Stories with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 2: So the d bunkers come in, they c fourteen, carbon fourteen,
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Speaker 2: the shroud of Turin, and they say that the shroud
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Speaker 2: was created. I believe you said with the eighteen hunt.
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Speaker 2: When did you say?
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Speaker 3: Twelve sixty, twelve sixty two, thirteen ninety.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, And it's very very difficult for me to reject. Well,
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Speaker 2: I cannot reject the car A fourteen test because I
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Speaker 2: know it to be true. You are now telling me, guy,
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Speaker 2: that they data used in the carbon fourteen test was
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Speaker 2: intentionally skewed to prove falsely the shoud of Turin was
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Speaker 2: a fake.
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Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. So one of the things when you get
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Speaker 3: so what happens is that the carbon fourteen test and
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Speaker 3: the results from their test on the samples and that's
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Speaker 3: a critical word, on the samples that they took, are
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Speaker 3: most likely correct that the date of those samples actually
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Speaker 3: range from somewhere between twelve twelve sixty to thirteen ninety.
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Speaker 3: The problem is twofold. The first one is where did
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Speaker 3: they take those samples from on the shroud? Number one. Normally,
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Speaker 3: what you would do is, if you really really wanted
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Speaker 3: to do a pure scientific test, you would take a
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Speaker 3: sample from one corner from the middle, from the edge,
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Speaker 3: another corner, you would take them all around the whole claw.
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Speaker 3: You would not take them from exactly the same place.
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Speaker 3: The second thing is because they didn't do that, and
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Speaker 3: that was the agreed on approach, and then all of
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Speaker 3: a sudden they decided not to do that. They took
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Speaker 3: it from one spot. Well, the spot that they took
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Speaker 3: it from had potentially two things wrong with it. First
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Speaker 3: of all, when the shroud was displayed over the last
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Speaker 3: two millennia, that is where the shroud was held by
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Speaker 3: the bishops and the senior church hierarchy when they actually
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Speaker 3: wanted to display it to the public, So the grime
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Speaker 3: on your hands, the oil on your hands would contaminate
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Speaker 3: and probably dominated that spot that it took.
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Speaker 2: He just said, something I can connect to contaminate, like
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Speaker 2: contaminated DNA. So what I think you're saying, and of
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Speaker 2: course I'm a jd I'm no scientist, is that. Of
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Speaker 2: course it is not the carbon fourteen method that is
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Speaker 2: in question, because it simply is not, just like evolution
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Speaker 2: is not in question. That's the way it happened. Now,
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Speaker 2: how you want to look at evolution through the filter
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Speaker 2: of Adam and eve that's the whole other can of worms.
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Speaker 2: But carbon fourteen testing is not the problem here. The problem,
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Speaker 2: as I understand you saying, is that the linin itself
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Speaker 2: is very very polluted, contaminated by for instance, where it
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Speaker 2: was kept, how it was handled over all those years.
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Speaker 2: Is that what you're saying? So the carbon fourteen testing
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Speaker 2: and pristine laboratory conditions would have been fine, but that
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Speaker 2: the object, the shroud itself was polluted.
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Speaker 3: That is, uh, there's and there's two or three areas,
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Speaker 3: but yes, that's the first one.
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Speaker 2: Is there aren't traces of fungus and calcium carbonate found.
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Speaker 3: That's a different thing. But yes, there were traces of
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Speaker 3: calcium carbonate and uh, and other other dust that is
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Speaker 3: only found in Jerusalem.
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Speaker 2: And isn't it true that certain areas of the shroud
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Speaker 2: were darned in other words, repaired later on?
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Speaker 3: And yes, absolutely, And that's been the second dimension of
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Speaker 3: why potentially the the the carbon dating was wrong in
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Speaker 3: that that area where the shroud is held hundreds and
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Speaker 3: maybe thousands of times. Is that that area where they
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Speaker 3: took that sample not only may have been contaminated by
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Speaker 3: may have been repaired with modern material.
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Speaker 2: Wow, you know, guy, I remember when I heard I
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Speaker 2: read that the Shroud of Turin was a fake. I
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Speaker 2: remember that moment like I remember where I was exactly
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Speaker 2: when I found out Elvis Presley was killed, or that
15:22
Speaker 2: you know that the war in Ukraine had started, just
15:27
Speaker 2: the OJ Verdict or just O J. Simpson, very so
15:33
Speaker 2: many moments in time you never forget. And I remember
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Speaker 2: immediately running to David, to whom I'm now married, and saying,
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Speaker 2: the Shroud of Turin is a fake. And I was upset,
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Speaker 2: although I have absolutely no connection to the Shroud of
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Speaker 2: Turin at all, and in my mind, whether it's real
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Speaker 2: or not real has no bearing on the truth of
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Speaker 2: Christ's teachings.
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Speaker 3: Correct.
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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I'm going to ask you, s absolutely, guy, what
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Speaker 2: led you to write The Only Witness, a History of
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Speaker 2: the Shroud of Turan.
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Speaker 3: Well, it's kind of funny. So we had the seventy
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Speaker 3: eight research, we had the nineteen eighty eight debunking, and
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Speaker 3: then about I don't know, fifteen twenty years later, my
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Speaker 3: brother sent me a book on the Shroud of Turin
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Speaker 3: and it was called The Blood and the Shroud, The
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Speaker 3: Blood and the Shroud by Ian Wilson, and I remember
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Speaker 3: reading it and it's a history book and it's basically,
16:42
Speaker 3: on thirteen fifty six this happened, and on thirteen fifty
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Speaker 3: seven this happened, and on thirteen fifty eight this happened.
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Speaker 3: And I got there it sounds terrible, No way that exactly,
16:53
Speaker 3: no way that anybody It was also.
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Speaker 2: About thirteen fifty eight.
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Speaker 3: Exactly. So then I said, you know what would be interesting,
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Speaker 3: and I remember it very distinctly, it is somebody ought
17:06
Speaker 3: to write there as a historical fiction. And that's exactly
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Speaker 3: what I did. And that's what the impetus for me was.
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Speaker 3: I took all of those facts, you know, as they
17:16
Speaker 3: were laid out by Ian Wilson many others of course,
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Speaker 3: and I said, you know, so, how could we tell
17:21
Speaker 3: a story about something that is this significant and tell
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Speaker 3: a story that other people would read and be able
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Speaker 3: to then consume it and read it and learn about
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Speaker 3: the shroud and go, wow, look at that. This is
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Speaker 3: very interesting? Is they? You know? And they can ask
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Speaker 3: the question themselves as to whether the shroud is authentic
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Speaker 3: or not. And but and that's that was really the
17:44
Speaker 3: genesis of me writing that book. And I remember was
17:47
Speaker 3: that weekend when I read that, I said, I'm going
17:50
Speaker 3: to write the first chapter and I wrote the first chapter,
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Speaker 3: and then it was twenty years before I actually started
17:56
Speaker 3: to really write it when I alway wanted to write it.
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Speaker 3: And then it was COVID and I remember sitting here
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Speaker 3: and I said, I need to finish that book, and
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Speaker 3: I picked up what I had written and I started writing.
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Speaker 3: And that's them where the book came from.
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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with me Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 2: Guys, for those of you just joining us, I'm talking
18:32
Speaker 2: to a friend and colleague and also a Amazon number
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Speaker 2: one bestseller of another book completely different topic has written
18:47
Speaker 2: The Only Witness, A History of the Shroud of Turin.
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Speaker 2: Guy Powell is with me. And you know, guys, there
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Speaker 2: are some people in the world that you take everything
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Speaker 2: they say with a box of sault. As I like
19:04
Speaker 2: to say, not a grain of salt, but a box
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Speaker 2: of salt. Guy Powell is someone you would seek out
19:15
Speaker 2: for an opinion or advice or the true facts. And
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Speaker 2: hearing you speak about your book, I mean, I got
19:25
Speaker 2: it this morning. Have you voiced it yet? Have you
19:27
Speaker 2: got an audio yet? In the process of trying to
19:31
Speaker 2: do that, I need it in an audio so when
19:34
Speaker 2: I go jog, haha, or walk, I can listen to it,
19:38
Speaker 2: but yes, I got it on Kendle this morning. So
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Speaker 2: it struck you after reading one kind of a historical
19:49
Speaker 2: view of the shroud to write, you know, first of all,
19:53
Speaker 2: what is a burial shroud? A lot of people are
19:57
Speaker 2: not familiar with a burial shroud.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. So a shroud is a burial cloth. So
20:05
Speaker 3: it's a cloth that would be wrapped around somebody that
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Speaker 3: had just died, and then you would be certainly at
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Speaker 3: the time of Christ, then you would wrap the body
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Speaker 3: in the in this piece of cloth, and then you
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Speaker 3: would bury that person in the tomb. And there's a
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Speaker 3: couple of different pieces that might take place. The one
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Speaker 3: is the cloth, a single piece of cloth that wraps
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Speaker 3: from the back of the feet all the way up
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Speaker 3: to the back of the head, over the face, and
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Speaker 3: then down to the front of the feet, and that's
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Speaker 3: what the the the shroud of Turin is. And then
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Speaker 3: possibly and very probably, then there was another strip, a
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Speaker 3: strip of linen that is wrapped around the body to
20:46
Speaker 3: hold that piece of cloth on the body, you know,
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Speaker 3: just to make sure that it just stays there and
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Speaker 3: stays together. And so there's there's a couple of different
20:56
Speaker 3: met mentions of that in the in the Book and
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Speaker 3: John of course, these linens and the strips of linins,
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Speaker 3: and so that's where those two things come from. And
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Speaker 3: this is then believed to be the burial cloth of
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Speaker 3: Jesus Christ.
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Speaker 2: In other words, this cloth, according to many believers, was
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Speaker 2: there in the tomb as silent witness to the resurrection.
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Speaker 3: Exactly it is, and that's thing where the title came from.
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Speaker 3: It is the only witness. So it was there during
21:34
Speaker 3: that moment of resurrection. So that's then believed to be
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Speaker 3: what caused that image to be imprinted onto that cloth.
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Speaker 3: And then the book, of course, is the only witness.
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Speaker 3: It's a history. It's not the history. Nobody knows what
21:50
Speaker 3: the history is. But it's a history, a plausible history
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Speaker 3: of the shroud of Turin as it progressed them from
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Speaker 3: that day in Gold and then in the tomb and
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Speaker 3: then all the way up to where it is today
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Speaker 3: in Turin, Italy.
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Speaker 2: So was it thrown away and recovered? Was it revered
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Speaker 2: as one of the most important relics in human existence?
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Speaker 2: Guy takes facts and hypotheses to write a history of
22:29
Speaker 2: this cloth, this burial cloth of Christ, as it travels
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Speaker 2: from Golgotha, where Christ was crucified in Jerusalem, through the
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Speaker 2: Roman Empire, through Byzantium, through Europe, and how this cloth
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Speaker 2: protected for centuries lands in Turin, surviving fire, war, plague, floods,
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Speaker 2: to become to many the single most valuable Christian relic
23:14
Speaker 2: or not. You know, it strikes me, guy, as we're talking,
23:25
Speaker 2: how it is a miracle that, for instance, the Bible
23:32
Speaker 2: or the Torah's our Old Testament even survived, but particularly
23:40
Speaker 2: the New Testament, because after Christ's crucifixion, Christians were of
23:48
Speaker 2: course persecuted, and it was more important to them to
23:56
Speaker 2: keep the faith. They would leave their homes, go living
23:59
Speaker 2: cave rather than denounce what they believe to be the truth.
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Speaker 2: And it strikes me now, guy, how blessed we are
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Speaker 2: to be able to even talk, be able to even
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Speaker 2: talk about the Shrid of Churin, or the Bible or
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Speaker 2: the Torah. How they survived over all the years and
24:26
Speaker 2: were not destroyed. To me, that is the miracle in itself.
24:31
Speaker 2: But you know, guy, there are countries all around the
24:35
Speaker 2: world where Christians and others are persecuted, jailed, killed even
24:44
Speaker 2: now because of their beliefs. And you and I can
24:47
Speaker 2: just take to the airwaves and talk about is the
24:50
Speaker 2: shrid of Churan real or is it a fake? It's
24:53
Speaker 2: how blessed are we?
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Speaker 3: Yes? You are so right. When I think about those Christians,
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Speaker 3: the Apostles, and then the early converts and and then
25:05
Speaker 3: the Romans. Uh, you know, destroying the Temple in early
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Speaker 3: the first century and then persecuting the Christians for another
25:14
Speaker 3: couple of hundred years. How hard was it for them
25:18
Speaker 3: to be a Christian? How hard was it? And uh?
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Speaker 3: And nowadays to your point, here we are talking about,
25:24
Speaker 3: you know, Christianity, talking about the Bible, talking about this
25:29
Speaker 3: miraculous potentially miraculous relictis out of turin. We are truly
25:34
Speaker 3: truly blessed.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, guys, just thinking about what I said at the
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Speaker 2: beginning about seeking the teachings of Christ. Whenever I am
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Speaker 2: a doubt like Thomas, and I'd like to remind everyone
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Speaker 2: when Thomas doubted, Christ did not reprimand him or kick
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Speaker 2: him out. He wooed him, he loved him. Anyway, Whenever
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Speaker 2: I have feelings of doubt, I think about those early
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Speaker 2: Christians who would rather die than renounce their faith or
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Speaker 2: the disciples. Do you remember Peter would not even agree
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Speaker 2: to be crucified. He thought it was too similar to
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Speaker 2: the way Christ was killed, so he insisted he'd be
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Speaker 2: crucified upside down. They would rather die than renounce. I
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Speaker 2: hope and pray that you are correct that the Shroud
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Speaker 2: of Turin israel I cannot reject science. But I have faith.
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Speaker 2: I can't wait to finish. It just got started this morning,
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Speaker 2: Witness a History of the Shroud of Turin. And how
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Speaker 2: long did it take you to write the book? Guy?
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Speaker 3: Well, it was from start to finish. When I really
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Speaker 3: got into it, it was three years.
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Speaker 2: Three years, wow, guys. And where can everyone find it?
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Speaker 2: The only Witness a History of the Shroud of Turin.
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Speaker 2: Where can it be found?
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Speaker 3: Well, definitely on Amazon. So today is the launch the
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Speaker 3: first availability of the book. I'm kindle it'll be available
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Speaker 3: shortly in print form on Amazon. It's available, and it'll
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Speaker 3: be available through any bookstore, and certainly hope to have
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Speaker 3: it available in different Christian bookstores. And then lastly, if
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Speaker 3: you want to, you can also get it from my site,
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Speaker 3: Guy Powell dot com and there you can sign up
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Speaker 3: for the book, also purchase the book and learn even
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Speaker 3: more about the out of Turn This.
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Speaker 2: Is the labor of love and I really look forward
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Speaker 2: to reading it. Guy Powell, thank you for being with
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Speaker 2: us today.
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Speaker 3: Nancy, thank you so much. I very much appreciate it.
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Speaker 2: Bye. Friend,