Latest / The Remnant Radio's Podcast / Who Is the Antichrist? What the Book of Revelation Actually Says | Michael Rowntree

Transcript

Who Is the Antichrist? What the Book of Revelation Actually Says | Michael Rowntree · The Remnant Radio's Podcast

• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Hey everybody, welcome back to the wonderful world of Rumnit Radio.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: In this episode, we're talking about the Book of Revelation.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Who is the Antichrist?
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody loves to speculate, and in this program we're talking about that and more.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: I love when you say speculating correctly during the intro, but today we're talking about who the Antichrist is.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he's the Simon Cowell of the Book of Revelation, the character that everyone loves to hate.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: And without further ado, I want to introduce to my co-host, my partner in crime, Michael Roundtree.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: How are you doing over there in Oklahoma City, my friend?
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: I am doing well, but it's actually kind of funny.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: You talk about like everyone's favorite character in the book of Revelation.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Arguably, he's not in Revelation.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the that's the big question.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: I have a certain position on this, and I'll share that here momentarily, but uh, but a lot of people believe, hey, there is no Antichrist future, like final figure, like the person that you're thinking of, the nickel, what what is it, Nicholas Carpathia or whatever his name was in the left behind series, been a long time.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: But uh that that there's not that final figure, final king or president or whatever who leads away the masses and all of this, that that's more of like a category, and there are lots of antichrists, and but but the key thing here, Josh, is that the book of Revelation never says the word antichrist.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: And when John talks about antichrists, it's in the context of heresy within the church, not a political leader.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so it becomes a real debate, and there's a lot of ways we can go with that.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: So uh anyway, excited to uh to talk about this, Josh.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, what about we starting with what you just said?
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like uh the Bible talks about an Antichrist figure, or maybe as you said a moment ago, figures plural.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, how is it that you understand that those pieces?
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: Is that something you want to dive into now, or should we uh maybe look at the kind of antichrist, uh I don't know, identity.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think that's probably the best place to spay uh to hang out is to talk about is it persons, is it persons plural, and can we find any kind of evidence of that kind of activity in the book of Revelation?
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so um the so here's the debate.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, so I'll I'll give you an example, 1 John 2, 18, uh it says, Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard, that antichrist is coming, so many and so now many antichrists have come.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so the two kind of major groupings of interpretations on that is uh like one interpretation is hey, there are a lot of antichrists who've been around who are coming, but there is the antichrist who is coming, and so there's the singular and there's the plural.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: So we should expect a human figure, and this human individual at the end of the age is uh equivalent to the man of lawlessness from 2 Thessalonians 2, or the little horn from Daniel chapter 7, uh, or the ultimate and final manifestation of the beast of the sea in Revelation 13 uh and other places.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: So uh, and so that's one side of the argument.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then the other side of the argument is hey, antichrist is more like a category.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: And when he says it's the last hour and many antichrists have come, like that's the evidence.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: We know it's the last hour because there have been so many antichrists.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: And when it talks about you've heard that antichrist is coming, that really names the overall category.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's like he says, it's coming, but really it's actually here because they're all around us and it is the last hour.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that's pretty much how the other argument goes.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then when you get into the book of Revelation, uh it's it's widely noted, hey, John, who has written more about Antichrists than any other New Testament author, fails to use that word when you book get to the book of Revelation.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: And the enemies in the book of Revelation, you've I mean, you've got the beast of the sea who has more of a political side, you've got the false prophet, it's more like on the religious side, although there's some overlap there.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you have the harlot Babylon, and of course, lots of interpretations there.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we don't have time for, but uh, but it doesn't name like an antichrist among those.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: Now, there are some who say, ah, but like even when we get into Revelation, there's a lot of disagreement here too, Josh, because um you have, for instance, the false prophet I mentioned that has like more of a religious expression there.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it says of him that he looks like a lamb but speaks like a dragon.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, well, the dragon beginning in Revelation 12 is the devil.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so looks like a lamb.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like, hey, it looks like Jesus, who in the book of Revelation is the lamb who was slain, looks like Jesus, but talks like the devil.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: They'd say, Well, that's the actual Antichrist, not the beast of the sea.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: So you got you've got those who say there's no Antichrist in the book of Revelation, those who say there is an Antichrist, even if it doesn't use that precise language because so much of the language fits other Bible verses about a final Antichrist.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then you uh and then you have those who say, Well, yes, I agree it's in Revelation, but it's not the beast of the sea, it's the beast of the earth, the false prophet.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot there.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Feel free to dive in wherever you want, Josh.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just gonna toss in my, you know, uh raised in pop culture eschatology, it's uh a somewhat blend of non-denominational dispensational theology left behind, you know, sprinkled in there.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna go, Michael, the Antichrist as I know him, or as maybe I'll just say pop culture knows him, is a figure who opposes Christ directly.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: He stands up in the temple, declares that he's God, and is mortally wounded in the head.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like that, you know, and I can't point to a Bible verse, Michael, that says those things, but this is this kind of composite picture that pop culture has informed me of when it comes to the Antichrist.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: Are those pictures and images that aren't explicitly about an Antichrist that people are assuming involves that?
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: What what's you know, help us kind of sift through, uh tiptoe through the revelation landmines here.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so we're gonna have to save till next uh next week uh the counterfeit death and resurrection of the beast of the sea, because there's a counterfeit death and resurrection of the sea beast.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: There is also a counterfeit return.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: So just as the lamb rose from the dead and in the future will return, the beast of the sea rises from the dead, but also returns in some way.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: We're talking apocalypse, like so, you know, what does that mean and what should we expect?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: If anything, like we're gonna handle all those questions next week.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna put those that aspect uh of what you just asked off for a moment.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: But it seemed like the real thrust of what you're saying, Josh, is that this really is centered in a man, a a literal physical dude, right?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: Who is the enemy of Christ.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: Now, uh who attacks Christ, you said.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: Now, even on that, like take Saul in Acts chapter 9.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus says, Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like people are attacking Christ every day by attacking the body of Christ.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's the message of Acts 9.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: So uh it doesn't necessarily have to mean that like uh Jesus and an antichrist are having like a physical fist fight somewhere, and I don't think it means that most people don't.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um but to your point that there is this idea of a final antichrist that rises.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: Now, this is the way the early church viewed it for several hundred years that did gradually develop over church history.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I talk in my book about how views of the Antichrist developed over time.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think Kim Riddlebarger also writes a great book, uh, I think he calls it Man of Sin.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: And even when Riddlebarger uses uh the language man of sin, he's taking from 2 Thessalonians 2, which is uh the ESV translates it the man of lawlessness.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh and so Josh, I would say the I I take a more composite view.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: I I agree.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it everyone has to admit the book of Revelation does not use the name Antichrist.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I I don't buy it when uh when people talk about if I can slowly get to the right Bible verses, uh I don't when people say like Antichrist is just a category, man of lawlessness is just a category.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't think so.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think so.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um I would say that in the book of Revelation, John is combining.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: We have uh in his epistles, the idea of antichrist specifically, we have Daniel's little horn imagery, we have Paul's man of lawlessness, we have the Revelation uh sea beast, and I see a sort of uh B.B.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: Warfield uses the language of a composite photograph, where it's like we're we're taking like systematic theology of this final persecuting ruler, and we're pulling it all together and we're saying Revelation does seem to agree with that.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: That was the view of the early church for a very long time.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: You did mention the the idea of, you know, does he rise up in a temple?
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: Does he rise up in um in a in the church?
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, Paul will say the church is the temple of the living God.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: So uh so does this final ruler rise?
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh what I say in my book, I talk about the history of it and the development of of the perspective on that.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I just say people should be prepared for for anything, whether it's in a temple, whether it's in the church, I don't know.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: I have my my leaning, but I I don't think that's the main thing.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think um I think the main thing is that he is going to exalt himself and magnify himself uh above all everything that is holy and declare himself to be God.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, and if it happens in a church setting, we should say, ah, okay, he was talking about the church.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: And if it happened in a temple setting, you you could do it there.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: I would say I lean toward church, I'll just be honest.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: But um, you know, a lot of dispensationalists will will make a big deal about there's got to be a temple rebuilt, and you know, the uh Orthodox Jews have, you know, they've got these red heifers that they're raising up, and you know, it's it's around the corner and all of that.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: And and a lot of it sent centers on these verses here that I'm about to read, because hey, if an antichrist is gonna exalt himself in a temple, that temple's got to be rebuilt.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's lots of conversation around that.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: But let me just read these few verses and um 2 Thessalonians chapter 2.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: It says, Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, uh, okay, so that's when Jesus returns, we're gathered up in the in the clouds with him.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken of mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word or a letter seeming to be sent from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: So people are saying, hey, the day of the Lord has already come.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Now, by the way, day of the Lord doesn't mean 24-hour period.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: It can mean like I had my day in court.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's like uh it can be a season, a period of time.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: And and it would seem that Paul is saying that day of the Lord, which is related to the gathering of the saints and is also related to the man of lawlessness he's soon to talk about.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: He says, Let me tell you why the day of the Lord hasn't come yet, because you can look for these couple of signs to know it's come.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: He says, Let no one deceive you in any way, for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and so I uh I would call this the great apostasy, a great falling away, uh, unless the rebellion comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called God or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, hey, you can't be expected.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I think this is a really hard one for the pre-tribulation rapture folks, because he's saying you can't expect to be gathered unto the Lord, and you can't expect the beginning or culmination of the day of the Lord, you can't expect any uh any of that until you see this man exalting himself.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: That is going to mark the day of the Lord is is beginning right there.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: So you can't say if that hasn't happened, if there isn't this man of lawlessness who's exalted himself in this way and declared himself to be God, you can't expect uh that the day of the Lord has already come.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and so as long as that hasn't happened, the day of the Lord is future.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: And uh he's gonna go on to say that this man of lawlessness is destroyed with the breath of his mouth, that is the mouth of the Lord Jesus, in the appearance of his coming.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it also says that this man of lawlessness is gonna come with tremendous signs and wonders and a great delusion will come over the earth, which relates to the rebellion, the great apostasy.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I do think, I think it's difficult to argue from that passage that man doesn't mean man, that it just means like a symbol of kind of like the uh, you know, a line of popes or something like that.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's hard to argue.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: Man of lawlessness, it sounds like an a literal and actual man.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: And the background for that is Daniel chapter 11, where uh where a persecuting ruler, and there's debate over is this a reference to Antiochus IV of Epiphanes, or is it a reference to a final man of lawlessness?
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we don't have really time for that, but Paul clearly borrows almost the exact same language from 2 Corinthians chapter 11.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: And throughout the book of Daniel, I'm preaching about it right now, you see uh uh a number of sections that are talking about Antiochus and his persecuting.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: And in Acts chapter or sorry, uh Daniel chapter 8, he's referred to as a little horn.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh in Revelation 7, there's also a reference to a little horn, although that one belongs to the fourth kingdom in Daniel's visions instead of the third, but it's uh biblical typology playing out that there's repeatedly this persecuting ruler.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: Daniel knows him as the little horn, and um and it's interesting because when you get to Revelation 13, the little horn imagery arises again.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm connecting dots here, Josh, where you see um a persecuting ruler in the book of Daniel.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: You see he's consistently referred to as uh persecuting rulers are consistently referred to as a little horn, and then you get to Revelation 13, and you see that same sort of little horn type of imagery that you see, especially in Daniel 7, repeated in Revelation 13 of a beast of the sea.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so what I would say is I do think there is a final persecuting ruler, I do think there is a final man of lawlessness.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that the beast of the sea is exhausted by just one meaning of an ant future antichrist.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think the man the beast of the sea spans all of church history from uh from uh the time of John's vision on, it spoke of all of that.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll I'll speak of that for a minute.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I need to shut up so you can ask another question, Josh.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: But um Revelation 13, John uses, I mean, he's getting visions, but his visions pull in imagery from all four of Daniel's beasts in Daniel chapter seven.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: In Daniel chapter seven, it's one of the most oft alluded to, echoed arguably the most in the New Testament and in the book of Revelation.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's a central and key chapter.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and so Daniel sees four different beasts traditionally, that is viewed as Babylon, then Meadow Persia, then Greece, and then Rome.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so those four successive empires.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then while Rome is in charge, one like a son of man is crowned in heaven, which actually happened in the first century.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, although I do think there's part of Daniel 7 that can speak to the far future, and I think Revelation 13 is beginning to speak to that because what Revelation 13 does is it it takes imagery from all four of these empires and applies them to this sea beast.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: The the first three are the creatures themselves, and then of the fourth beast, it borrows from the little horn imagery of Daniel 7, which belongs to the fourth empire.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so you see all of that rolled into one sea beast.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so, uh, and so if the the beasts represented uh kings, yes, but especially their empires, then I think that the beast of the sea has to represent empires.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Really, I would call it the kingdom of man.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when people view it as just ancient Rome, like preterists, uh, or just a revived Roman Empire, like many futurists, I think that's overly limiting of what the beast of the sea represents.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think it represents Christian crushing empire, empire that devours life.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so you have this juxtaposition of the beast which devours and the lamb who lays his life down to very different kinds of kingdoms uh represented there.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh coming back to the persecuting ruler, uh, let me see it.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh let me just connect for you so you you're hearing actual verses.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Daniel chapter 7.8, his little horn, notice.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: This is the little horn belonging to the fourth kingdom.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: There is a mouth speaking great things, Daniel 7.8.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Revelation 13 5, there's a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Now, Daniel 7 21 21, this little horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: Revelation 13 7, this for this beast make will make war on the saints and conquer them.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Daniel 7.25, it mentions time, times and a half time.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: Revelation 13 5, uh, which most understand to be three and a half years.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Revelation 13.5 speaks of 42 months.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so in both cases, you have the arrogant speech, the persecution, the limited oppression, all of that sort of connected imagery with the fourth empire.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: So to summarize, I would say the beast of the sea speaks of Christian crushing empire.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, not just Christian, you'll see later that they also crushed the poor, but basically the devouring forces of the kingdom of man, in contrast with the lamb who lays his life down in his kingdom, which is superior.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think the beast of the sea encompasses all of that.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: Some are like, but Michael, what about an Ottoman Empire and a revival?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think all of it plays in any empire.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it all plays into that imagery of the beast of the sea.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think there is an ultimate and final manifestation that is the worst and does include uh someone, a ruler who resembles Daniel's little horn because John uses that same imagery.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: There you go, Josh.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm off my soapbox.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's it's fantastic.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: No, well, it's the thing.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: When you've spent a lot of time studying, working, dealing with the source material, reading all the extra commentaries.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: I remember years ago when you first started working on Revelation and the books you would read.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think you were up to 50 plus books when you were just preaching the sermon, um, and then you started going into turning this into a book, and then you you doubled down on your reading.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: So you're extremely passionate and knowledgeable about it.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's it just overflows like you know, the fire hose is turned on.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: So uh there's not much real in you back in.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: We'll just let you go.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh okay, we we talked a little bit about some of these antichrist as almost like an archetype, right?
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we you mentioned a couple of verses, antichrist coming out of the church.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but like help help again define what that is.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: What is the actual archetype?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: What makes these individuals antichrists?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: So as we're looking through the book of Revelation, see if anyone kind of fits that paradigm.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let's let's start with the first John, since it uses the actual word antichrist.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: Children, it's the last hour, you've heard the antichrist is coming, right?
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: So John's gonna start to unpack that a few verses later.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: Who is the liar, but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: This is the Antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so denying the truth about Jesus is central to being an Antichrist figure.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, now, on the claim that, like, hey, Antichrist speaks of heresy arising inside of the church, that's not what the beast of the sea is about.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, here would be my response.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: The beast of the sea promotes heresy, but he does it theocratically.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, he does it in the context of government.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, and so whereas uh the epistles of John, when they talk about Antichrist, yes, it's speaking of heresy, but John is actually also speaking of heresy in the book of Revelation.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: He's just taking it further.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: Government's involved.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: This is a political leader.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's the connection with Daniel chapter seven.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: This is a political ruler.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: So he is a political ruler, and um, and I would say that um what to look for.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's actions to look for, somebody standing in some sort of religious location.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really care what you believe, whether church or temple, I think it'll be obvious at the time.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody who is exalting themselves as sort of a head of religion and uh declaring themselves above Yahweh and persecuting saints.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: Those are the big ones to look for.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it also talks about a mouth speaking haughty or arrogant words.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: And uh he borrows uh that imagery from Daniel.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, he got the real vision, but it it alludes to Daniel very directly.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh watch for leaders who have really arrogant speech, who are boasting all the time.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but now I'm gonna pull in some language from Daniel because if John everywhere in Revelation 13 is referring to Daniel 7, he's telling us, look there.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: And again, preaching through it, I see patterns that repeat over and over again in the book of Daniel.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: One of them is boasting, but it's not just boasting about how great I am, they do that.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: But also Daniel 7, what you see is they're making boasts against the most high God.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, so they're speaking like like an example of this would be in Daniel 3, where Nebuchadnezzar says, Who's gonna rescue you from my hands in this fiery furnace?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like there, there's a boast that's Going on, or in Daniel chapter 4, Nebuchadnezzar, like, who you know, who's built a kingdom like me is so great.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, God turns this uh king who thinks he's so incredible beastly, and he starts uh uh he goes kind of insane.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the first half of Daniel is all narrative, and it's meant to teach essentially the same truths as the last half of Daniel, which is apocalyptic literature, uh sort of like the earliest of apocalyptic literature.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: And um and throughout you see a pattern.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: So one of them is uh lots of bragging and boasting, uh, one is persecuting the saints, uh, one you'll see this in Daniel 8 with Antiochus, uh, as well as in Daniel 7 with the fourth kingdom tampering with religious laws, uh, telling Christians when and how and what they can do and worship, um, making them either deny the truths of the Bible, and there's so there's a coercion involved, uh, and uh either denying the truths of the Bible or affirming pagan truths.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: You see that all throughout the book of Daniel, uh, Antiochus and Daniel 8, who's represented by the little horn uh of Daniel 8, little horn consistently an image of this persecuting ruler, uh, appears in the third kingdom, again in the fourth kingdom, and again throughout this age, and ultimately in a final culminating way, in my opinion.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: So um, yeah, but persecuting power, I've talked about that a fair amount.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: But Daniel 8 will talk about how he's uh he's cunning and deceptive.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so this is somebody who's just telling open lies.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: And when you read the history in the Maccabees, like first and second Maccabees, you see how Antiochus did that.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, he was deceptive and kind of feigned peace in some ways.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's something to pay attention to, a ruler who's, you know, cozying up to believers and then uh uh and then changing.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and you'll you'll see that in uh various places in Daniel.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I it I think those are some things, and and I'm just gonna be honest and say, like, you know, I think even in um like we can think of some recent examples where governments have uh over-tampered in the church and in religion.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I'm not saying that that's like a full bore sea beast kind of thing, but I am saying it's a concerning sign when Christians see governments tamper tampering in any way in religion and giving some excuse for it, we should uh have our ears perked up, is what I'm saying.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: So there is that pattern.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, you started off talking about doctrine, you know, um, they deny that Christ came in the flesh, that's the Antichrist spirit, it denies the truths about Jesus.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: But those who who have this Antichrist spirit leave the church, is it a prerequisite for you for this man of lawlessness, this little horn, to have been a believer at some time, to well, to have been a false professing believer of some time?
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um how would you how would you understand that?
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, I don't I don't think that's necessary that they were definitely like uh claiming that.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: I know the early church claimed that it would be somebody from the tribe of Dan, and so have some kind of Jewish heritage and be making some claims there.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I I don't think that's true.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: And um part of the reason they say that is then in Revelation chapter 7, the tribe of Dan is omitted from the list of tribes, and that's just an interesting thing.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but um, you know, or the fact that he's exalting himself in the church or temple, like there's surely some kind of religious claim, but I don't think it means that it that like he was posing as a literal Christian, uh, but I think it could mean that.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Daniel chapter 11 will talk about and again, it starts to get ambiguous.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: Is he talking about Antiochus?
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: Is he talking about a final ruler, or is it kind of a blend of both?
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm more in that that perspective.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, it'll say like he worships a god of fortress, which is like a god of war.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so he's a warmonger.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: That is another one of the characteristics.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: He's a warmonger, he loves war.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: And um so whether he has to have feigned that he was a Christian, um, or like did he have this long history of like maybe being in the church and those kind of things?
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know about that, but I know that there is some kind of pretending to represent um the most high God, some kind of that there is some real fakery and false, false Christianity at play.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's like yes, ish, but I guess what that precisely looks like, I don't think there's enough information to say.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: I will say that it I think it's a fair argument that, like um the uh beast of the earth who looks like a lamb and speaks like a dragon, there's definitely some false Christ prince uh like characteristics there.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a great argument.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: And he serves this false prophet serves as like a lieutenant to the beast of the sea, and more on the religious side, but there's also some blend um because this false prophet is also putting into place economic policies, which is usually what you think a political leader is doing, and the beast of the sea is also basically demanding worship, which is what you think of a religious leader doing.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so there is kind of this blend between the two.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: But um, but yeah, as far as what to look for, I would I would say I wouldn't expect somebody who says they're atheist.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I would say, I mean, Hitler claimed some kind of Christian resemblance.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it says, you know, Craig Keener talks about this in his commentary, how he famed friendliness to Protestant leaders.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: So when Hitler came to power, few were as jubilant over it as Protestant leaders, which is actually kind of sad.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we just have to be really careful about that speech, uh, about the speech and the deceptive practices.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think there will be some pretending to be Christian.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the evidence will be like, look at some of these patterns we've talked about.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: So false teaching is a uh prerequisite or at least an involved piece within this antichrist archetype.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um you it'll have to be a denial that the true Lord Jesus Christ is Jesus Christ.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's like definition.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like here's your Christology will have to be really whack.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't mean that they I mean Mormon Christology is really whack, right?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: But they'll walk around saying, I worship Jesus.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it will say, Yeah, but which Jesus?
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's not the Jesus I worship, right?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: So um so I don't I don't know precisely what it's gonna look like.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: There's gonna be a a feigning of something Christian like, I believe, but um it's going to be obvious to those who I don't say obvious, it in fact says, if possible, deceive even the ill the elect, which I do think there was some first century when I look at the Olive discourse, now I've touched on another subject.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: When I look at the Olive discourses, I see a past tense sort of dress rehearsal culminating in AD 70, but I see a final culmination at the end of the age.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um biblical prophecy so often has a both and component.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think coming back to your question, I think it'll look Christian to some people.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: It will absolutely make a connection in your book that I wanted to touch on, which is that the false teachers relate to the book of Revelation, the beast, and its persecuting of Christians.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: You want to make that connection for us?
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh okay.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: So make the connection.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: Can you ask it a different way?
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: So how do false teachers relate to revelations persecuting of the beast?
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if you don't comply with their teaching, they kill you.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't comply with their teaching, they throw you in jail.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: Or if you don't comply with their teaching, they persecute you economically.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so it like the first step is they tamper with the loss.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: And the second step is if you don't comply with their laws, you're going to suffer.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: So that that is, and and by the way, like I believe the book of Revelation is a book of hope.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's actually like the subtext of my book or the subtitle is uh finding confident hope in the book of Revelation.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, and it's but it's not the kind of hope that's like prosperity gospel hope, where everything's gonna be cheery and wonderful and easy.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: It is gonna be hard.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: I do think much of Revelation has to deal with like this present age in which we're living right now.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: I do think there's also a big a chunk of it that's dealing with the cluster of what happens at the very end.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but all the all the way through, I mean, Jesus himself tells us for just put revelation on the side for a moment.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus himself tells us in the world you'll have trouble.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, or Paul tells us, Acts 14, it is through many afflictions that we enter the kingdom of God.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I I think tribulation is a trigger word for Christians.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it needs to be, because forget our end times theology.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody said we were going to suffer tribulation.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: So to pretend that there's no suffering in this age, because I mean it's just that's the Joel Osteen gospel.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's not the real gospel.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so Revelation does have suffering for the saints, but it's actually ultimately awesome and beautiful and holy and uh hope-giving, if you understand sort of, I guess, the underlying message.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why understanding it as apocalyptic is really important because apocalyptic, it basically means the word means uh the Greek word behind it means unveiling.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's an unveiling of Jesus, it's an unveiling of his plan, but it's it's it's helping us see from his perspective so that what looks like to us is horrible persecution, looks to him like something different.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'll give you one more example.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Revelation 13 and Revelation 15 use almost the exact same language.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: I've already read it, like the beast of the sea makes war on the saints and conquers them.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and then now conquer contextually, so that's persecution of the saints.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and it includes death contextually, not just death, also imprisonment, but uh, but it includes death.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: Now move to Revelation 15, and you see the sea of glass, which we already saw in Revelation 4, uh, with there's like flames around it, and they're busting out a remix of the song of Moses.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's called the Song of Moses and the Song of the Lamb.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: So Isra Israel comes out of slavery and they sing the song of Moses.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so there's like a greater exodus that's taking place, and you see the saints who conquered the beast.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so it uses the same language as in Revelation 13.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: So where it looked like the saints died, where it looked like the saints lost to the beast in Revelation 13, and Revelation 15, you see their spirits around a glassy sea and worshiping the Lord in glory and joy.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it speaks of like, hey, they're actually victorious over the beast.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so what's playing out is they conquer like the lamb conquered by laying their lives down.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so what John is is encouraging the church, starting with the seven churches that were living in Rome and there was all this persecution, it's like his way of saying, like, yeah, it is.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm your partner in tribulation, guys.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: It is hard, and it's gonna continue to be hard.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: But let me tell you something.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: There is a there's a promise coming, like the worst the beast can do, the worst government can do, and they're clamped down, is they can kill you.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: But as soon as they do, you've conquered.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: If you've maintained your faithful witness to the end, you've conquered and you're gonna be in glory.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, and so there's there's a comfort in it in that.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: And uh Revelation 1 begins with Jesus holds the keys to death and Hades, and so he's conquered Hades, and so uh, and I believe, along with church history, that Jesus actually went to Hades and rescued the saints and brought them into heaven.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and and I think that's all part of the picture that Revelation is trying to paint, like, hey, it's not just like gloomy end in Hades, it's like you're getting paradise with the Lord, and then that's kind of like stage one, the intermediate state, and then it ultimately gets to the new creation after Jesus returns.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: But we conquer in the same way Jesus conquered through faithful witness and endurance, perhaps even unto death.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let's let's circle back to uh a theme that you mentioned earlier about Daniel's beasts being very, very similar to uh this culminated picture of or the the imagery of the the animals in his visions are seem to culminate together in John's picture of the beast.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: Can can you unpack some of that for us?
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so Daniel chapter seven, Daniel sees four beasts arising from the sea.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, and like I said, uh the traditional interpretation, and I say like Jewish history, Christian history, it's only in modern times that some of them have uh have changed it uh to be a different sequence, but it's uh Babylon, Medo Persia, Greece, and Rome.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I can pretty make a very strong argument for that.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um but uh it says that you know I saw these visions in my head.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: There are four winds churning, stirring a great sea, and I saw four beasts.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: The first was like a lion and had eagle's wings, and it's uh and then it says there was another beast like a bear and is raised up on one side, um, ri ribs in its mouth, and then another is like devour much flesh.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well, that's the same one, and then another one is uh like a leopard with four wings, and and so like most of those images reappear in chapter 13, and so Babylon, Meadow Persia, Greece.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: And what's interesting is Daniel 7, 12, it says this.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: It says, As for the rests of the beasts, that is the first three, it says their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season at a time.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: So Daniel is envisioning these these other kingdoms that uh that when they perish, it's like their beastly DNA lives on.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: That seems to be what John is doing in Revelation 13, is showing how their beastly DNA lives on, the devouring forces of the kingdom of man that uh that crush people.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: And um and so which the ultimate culmination, like it enters full beast mode when it persecutes the saints.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: But uh the fourth, the fourth beast is unique and different from the rest.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: And Daniel in chapter seven will actually ask, why is this one so different?
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's the worst of them all.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I believe it's uh very analogous to Rome in its descriptions and it's uh and just the way it's military operated.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, and the fourth beast, the imagery that is the same in Revelation 13 is what I've already read about the little horn that arises on the fourth beast.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: So he uses imagery from all of them, I believe, to show that um one, we can't over-identify this the beast of the sea with just Rome, which is actually what I mean, most preterists and most futurists do that.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, preterists will say it's a former Roman Empire.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um that the beast of the sea is uh is like the Roman Empire and it was you know conquered in Jesus, and then uh in his first coming, and then uh preterist or futurists, many of them will say, well, Rome is gonna boomerang back onto the scene, and there's gonna be a future Nero-like figure boomerangs back on the scene.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: We'll we'll talk about this some more next week, but um, but they're looking for a revived Roman Empire and you know the the European Union is maybe like the ten horns, the kings, whatever.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: But the problem is now we're up to like 20-something countries in the European Union.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: But they're looking to the future, but but I think that's all an over-identification with Rome.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because what John is doing is he's gathering up the imagery of all four of the kingdoms.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we have to understand the beast of the sea not just as past Rome, not just as future Rome, not as any one empire in history, but I think it's a composite, the kingdom of man in its entirety.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: And you see, like the parallel vision to Daniel 7 is in Daniel 2, where it has four kingdoms also, but it's a statue, and it's a statue of a man.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: Now, incidentally, Daniel uh in Daniel 2, it's a statue of this like glorious man.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: And in Daniel chapter 7, those same four kingdoms are mutant beasts.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like God's perspective on the kingdom of man versus man's perspective.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: He thinks he's this great statue, but it has feet of clay.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and and the stone, which is Jesus, and the kingdom of God comes and crushes it.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: Point where I'm going with this is um, even though there are four successive kingdoms, the statue image, which is the parallel to Daniel 7, sees them as all belonging to the singular kingdom of man.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: So when you get to Revelation 11, uh, I think it's verse 15, at the return of Jesus, it says, uh, now the kingdom of this world, notice it's singular.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: All the kingdoms are really one kingdom.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: The kingdom of this world, or the kingdom of man, is what I've been calling it.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: The kingdom of this world has become the kingdom of our Lord and his Christ.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so Jesus already reigns over all the kingdoms.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: Revelation 1:5, you're the rule, he's the ruler of the kings of the earth.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: Matthew 28, 18, all authority in heaven and on earth belongs to him.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus is the king of kings.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: He already rules, he ascended far above every throne and ruler and dominion, visible and invisible.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: He is the ruler of all.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: And yet, Psalm 110, he rules in the midst of his enemies.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: When he returns, he he returns to remove all contest.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that'll touch a little bit on the millennium, and we're not going to talk about that today.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, Revelation 11:15, the kingdom of this world becomes the kingdom of our Lord and his Christ.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so he consummates his reign at his return.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: And now I can't remember what question I was answering, but I think it was about the four successive beasts in Daniel 7.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm what I'm trying to do is to show a picture of yes, they are individual beasts, but I think we're wrong to fixate it all on one individual empire.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think it is the kingdom of man pulling in Daniel 2, parallel to Daniel chapter 7, in conjunction with how Daniel or sorry, John, uh, his vision takes all four of the kingdoms and rolls them together, as I say in the in my book, like a ball of Plato.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: They all they're all one.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's the kingdom of man.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: So what I would envision it, or what I would interpret it to be, is the kingdom of man, from Christ's first to a second coming, is going to be a life-devouring force.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't mean the government is all bad.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's a net good, but as a general rule, um, empires devour people.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you don't need much of a history lesson to see that.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: And an empire is reached full beast mode when it's persecuting the saints, which is what you see in Revelation 13.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: We see this all over the place.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I think this is taking place all over, but I do think there is a culminating and ultimate manifestation of that, um, where where there is a final true anti-Christ ruler.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm fine if somebody doesn't want to use that term, a man of lawlessness, eighth head of the beast.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's probably more for next week, Revelation 17.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, I do think there is a culminating ruler who um perfectly embodies this anti-Christ, anti-Christian empire.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't think that the image of the beast, though it can be a picture of an empire, also can include an individual.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: You don't think that they're they're necessarily separate pictures?
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it definitely can include individuals, yes.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you see, like if you look at the Daniel image, he will just sometimes he'll say king, and sometimes he'll say kingdom about the same uh about the same image.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like for instance, Daniel chapter two, uh Nebuchadnezzar, you are the head of gold in this four kingdom statue.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: But then later he's gonna talk about these as each being kingdoms, and so king and kingdom kind of blends, and especially when you have apocalyptic literature at play, there can be this sort of blending, uh, like the eighth head of the beast in Revelation chapter 17.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a head, but then uh a king, but then it's also he talks about it like it is the entirety and the whole of the whole beast.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so there can be this sort of weird blending, but you can think of it like your dream world, where like in your in your dream life, images can blend and morph and change all the time, and they can speak about two things at once, and uh, and that's just the way dreams are, and that's the way visions are, and that's how these visions will play out.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: And um, the biblical pattern is that kings and kingdoms can both be at play, and it'll talk about horns.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: Horns tend to be representative of uh individual rulers.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but there can be there can be an interplay, absolutely.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so they can be king, they can be kings, they can be empires, can they be periods?
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I know that's an interpretation that this is about certain ages and epics that take place.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um you have said it a couple of times that this sounds like a cyclical pattern almost.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, so when we talk about epics, like you're probably thinking like historicists, uh, which you know, like the Puritans were kind of in this place, but um, but sometimes you'll hear somebody say, Oh, we're living through the Laodicean age.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: We might have talked about this a little bit on the last episode.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: They'll tend to see like epics of church history represented by the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: And um yet when we get to the uh Revelation chapter 13, Beast of the Sea, uh, it I I haven't seen a lot of people who are thinking of it in terms of epics.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: You'll you'll like the the preterists will say this was past Rome, the futurists will say it's future Rome, or maybe they'll say it's a future Ottoman Empire or a future this or that, but um but uh I would say it spans all of church history.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_01: And um and so yeah, so I I I think that it's too limiting to make it any uh So, like Nero, he fits that picture, right?
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: Nero fits the picture quite well.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: Nero was sick.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: He was like, I have a description.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: I it was a I borrowed it from Kim Rittlebarger, but of course, give him credit.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: But where he talks about Nero just being insane.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like the people that he killed, his sexual exploits, I don't even really want to repeat on air.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: They're so disgusting.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the empire was totally destabilized.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Nero disappeared for a time.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, there was like all kinds like did he kill himself?
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like what happened?
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and so there was all kinds of speculation.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll talk about this some more in the next episode.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I think Nero was very anti-Christ, absolutely.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think he was the final culmination.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so I I don't believe that.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's still something future.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: But there's still a whole lot of church history that points to different kinds of antichrist figures.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: You want to walk us through some of that?
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so when you talk epics, maybe that's where you were going with it.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and this is like, you know, the idealists.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's a it's a kind of interpretive approach to revelation where uh they take maybe like the most symbolic and most kind of transcultural ideas for these symbols.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so for instance, they'll see the seals, trumpets, and bowls as synchronous symbols of God's judgments uh throughout church history.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's not my interpretation.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think the trumpets and bowls are clustered at the end and that the seals span church history.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: We can talk about that in another episode.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, but when it comes to the beast, I I'm actually pretty close to the the way the idealists would interpret it, in that uh I do believe like there are seasons in church history where various antichrist leaders will arise.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mentioned Adolf Hitler, um, and you know, Keener also talks about this in his commentary.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_01: He says, you know, Satan's not omniscient, so he doesn't know who that like final ruler might be.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: So he just keeps raising people up.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: Could it be that he raised up a Hitler?
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_01: And turns out he wasn't the final one.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus didn't destroy him with the appearance of his coming and the breath of his mouth.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: Breath of his mouth speaks of the word of God and his judgment, um, and speaks of Christ's return.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: So uh so King's like, it's you know, future what?
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: So Satan's gonna keep raising these people up.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, throughout church history, I think Joel Richardson makes a great case uh like for the Ottoman Empire and the different like leaders there.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I I think he makes a good case for that.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I I don't read Revelation 12 and 13 in precisely the same way that he does, but what is uh I think striking about the Ottomans is uh like if we look at 1 John 2.22, who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ, this is the Antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's literally what Muslims do.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: And they have theocracies.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so have there been Ottoman expressions of Antichrist?
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and so so I think Nero, I think you know, some preterists try to say Vespasian, uh, the a few, I think he's maybe four after Nero in the line of Caesars.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: And uh some some of them try to say that he was like the ultimate culminating antichrist expression.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't buy it because Josephus says of Vespasian that he was a charitable and just ruler.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_01: You could never say that about a man of lawlessness and and horrific ruler.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_01: So um anyway, so I don't buy that, but uh Nero in early history would be primary.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, Domitian, the the persecuting ruler, any persecuting ruler that you can think of, I it qualifies as an antichrist leader.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: And and Hitler, it you know, he uh while they did have like a functioning quote unquote church, they also had a confessing church, which was like the real church that stood on the word of God.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's what Bonhoeffer uh was part of.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh and so Hitler persecuted, like he tampered with religious laws, and like you could say and couldn't say certain things.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh man, the the best modern one would be Hitler.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: He was definitely that.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then we could look at uh, I would say, yeah, this this is a big one, actually.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like the the Protestants, and they would put this into their confessions, uh, that the popes were basically antichrist.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, a lot of people have softened on that now.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: I would say most have, uh, some still hold to that.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_01: But at least in the time period of the Protestant reformers, absolutely, absolutely, and I think there's a solid case of putting themselves up in the temple of God.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I still don't think it was a culminating expression, but I do think it was an expression in history.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_00: So uh you pointed to a lot of like moments of great chaos.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: You've got Hitler, you've got, I mean, Protestant Reformation, they're taking out Christians, they're killing them for being becoming Protestant, those sorts of things.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: So um uh it seems like those moments of chaos cause us to be looking for it.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: You you mentioned that when you taught through the book of Revelation at your church, you know, everybody thought it was the end times because COVID started the week that you started, uh, which is funny.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but um there's like a danger in like you know, trying to read the book of Revelation with a newspaper in your hand, you know, trying to find all the connections that everybody's missing.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: Can you you know walk us through some of the things that we need to avoid, some of the things that we actually need to be mindful of?
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because some of these things you're you're saying, like, hey, you see a guy stand up in a temple and claim that he's God, like that should be your sign that it's a literal temple interpretation.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um Yeah, yeah.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the image I keep coming back to, because the scripture keeps coming back to it, is the image of birth pains.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, Jesus talks about this as the beginning of birth pains.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: Again, I think that you can look at a bunch of the all of the discourse and say that was fulfilled in the in the first century.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Luke 21, he says when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, that was definitely first century.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: And the Christians took it that way, and that's how they uh evaded getting destroyed with what Josephus labels, probably an exaggeration, but what he labels is 1.1 million Jews uh crushed in the AD 70 uh destroying of the temple.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so um, yeah, so coming back to the image of birth, uh of birth pains, well, birth pains come cyclically, and so man, I think there's like a strong cycle taking place, so to speak.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean a metaphor here, uh, of like lots of tragedy hitting at once in the first century.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we can see that also play out at time where it seems like everything seems to hit at once.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I call them in my book cycles of intensity, and birth is that way, and um and what I define as the water breaking, so to speak, is the great apostasy in the temple blasphemy of 2 Thessalonians chapter 2.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's when Paul says, Okay, that's when you know the day of the Lord is here.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and you you know the day of the Lord is here because the Antichrist, this or the man of lawlessness, has exalted himself in the temple and claimed to be God.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_01: So that's how you know.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, and so we want I I think it's good to pay attention to the times.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: We just don't want to get jumpy.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_01: Pay attention, like, if you haven't crossed that threshold of uh of the two signs I just mentioned, then then you're not there yet.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I think like I I disagree with those who expect like an any moment rapture, like it, you know, I had a friend in um in like the friend who actually led me to Jesus, brought me to church where I got saved.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: He says, when he was a little kid, his worship pastor on was on the stage and said, Man, I just like leading worship to the whole church.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: He says, I just had a feeling Jesus has said he's coming back tonight.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think he's gonna come back tonight.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_01: And my friend Ken's like five years old at the time.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_01: He's freaking out.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, I'm never gonna get married, you know, I'm never gonna have all these experiences I've been looking forward to.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it like traumatized him.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_01: I I actually don't believe in an any moment rapture.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think Jesus does give us some signs, and I think uh the specific that Paul gives in 2 Thessalonians 2 are the two to especially look for.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I am one, and this is controversial, but I do believe Romans 11 teaches that there will be a Jewish great awakening at the end of the age, that there will be a mass Jewish revival, that the times of the Gentiles will conclude, and uh, and then all Israel will be saved.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: Now, others take Israel in that text to mean more like spiritual Israel.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, don't really have time for that, but I will say I do think there are some potential indicators in Revelation chapter 11 that would corroborate, as well as in the gospels, that would corroborate what Paul says in Romans chapter 11, indicating ethnic Jews will come to Christ in mass just around the end.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there are some some big signs to look for to say, like, okay, Jews is coming back real soon.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but uh wars and rumors of wars and famines and all those kind of things, though that's like the beginning of birth pains.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_01: They do in church history and just world history tend to happen largely in clusters.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: And you mentioned a few of those clusters.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I do think that exists, and I think there will be a huge cluster at the very end.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what the trumpets uh are beginning.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think the trumpets are like the warnings on the front side and then the bowls.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, trumpets are meant to warn.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_01: You can actually still get saved while the trumpets are playing out.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think they all would be categorized as the day of the Lord, which culminates with the uh seventh bowl when the Lord says it is done.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and so the trumpets are to warn, the bowls are to be emptied.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's God's final expression of wrath.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and so I think we cyclically go through uh just as world history, really intense seasons, and I think it'll be a really intense season before Jesus returns.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_01: But the message of revelation is hope that uh he gives us what we need to endure.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_01: Where is Jesus walking?
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_01: But among the seven golden lampstands, not the halls of Congress.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: You, you and me, the church, we are where he wants to be.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: He walks among us.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_01: Emmanuel's presence is with us, and um, even in a worst case scenario, we win.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of that's how I see it, Jason.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_00: This is a good place to land the plane.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_00: We just talked a whole lot about the Antichrist and the beast and these kinds of images here, but like what does what does it have to do with me right now?
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you gave me a little message of like comfort and peace there, but like, what are my like main takeaways?
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm I'm leaving this video, if I'm gonna go study the book of Revelation, like what is the the active working that this is doing right now today in the church?
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I I think that it's the I mean the Jesus the message of Jesus and the and the all of a discourse is is always like be ready, be ready, be ready uh for for his return.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you're not living for Jesus when times are relatively easy, are you gonna be living for Jesus when they get harder?
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think so.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_01: The time to the time to begin living for Jesus is yesterday, today, not in 10 years when you turn over a new leaf or when things are you know better, and like, oh well, well, when I reach this stage, I'll give it all.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_01: No, give it all to Jesus now.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the the language in Revelation consistently, like in Revelation 13, when the beast is bearing down, uh, he says, uh, let every let everyone who has ears hear.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and there it's a message of faithful endurance, but that's a a message that parallels what he says to each of the seven churches.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so I look at what he says to the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3, or I'll just cite Richard Baucom on this, uh, where he talks about how it's like conquer is a military word, and he says, to him who conquers or to him who overcomes, that's a different translation of the same Greek word.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's a military word, just as it is when Jesus conquers and uh on the cross, the Lamb who conquered, right?
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: But like, so he's actually giving us like our little portion of the battlefield for these seven churches.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_01: So you over here in Ephesus, or you over here in Sardis, or you over here in Pergamum or whatever, like you have this assignment, you have this assignment.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_01: But really, all the assignments are for all of us because he finishes by saying, uh, like he who has ears, let him hear what the spirit says to the church is.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so that message, those messages of the seven churches, look for your own church and look for your own heart in there and ask yourself, where do I need to repent?
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_01: Where do I need to hold on?
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because those are the two central messages, messages, and posture yourself in readiness for Christ's return.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, one of the things that I say in my book is that uh I might have quoted this last episode, I can't remember, but uh, that it's not perfect eschatology, but a uh but a posture of readiness that prepares us for Christ's return, something like that.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_01: But it's uh but it's like, how is your heart with Jesus?
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's the main point.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_01: And revelation is not just about speculation on the future, it is a pastoral book meant to form our hearts into Christ-likeness.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_01: So respond to that.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_01: Open up your spiritual ears, soften your hearts to what the Spirit might be saying, even if it's hard, because for most of the seven churches, it was a hard message to hear.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so receive the difficult message of the Holy Spirit for you right now, today, and you will be ready, whether you believe in a future millennium, whether you believe the millennium's already realized, uh, whatever your position is on some of these like different theories, whatever you believe about the Antichrist, at the end of the day, open your spiritual ears and be ready.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's the pastoral message of uh of Revelation, is you get ready by heeding the message, the message of the spirit spoken by Jesus in the book of Revelation.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's where we land.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_00: Guys, thank you so much for tuning into this episode.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: We got more episodes.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna do another part two on the beast here pretty soon.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then we're gonna cover the Horror of Babylon.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna cover, man, so many various pictures here in the book of Revelation that we're gonna be tackling.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, Michael's already released an episode on the mark of the beast, and we've done an episode just prior talking about how to read the book of Revelation.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it's gonna be an exciting program.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_00: I encourage you guys to go check it out.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're interested, I'd very much encourage you to pick up Michael's book, Um, The World Made Right.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, the information that we cover here in the podcast is like really, I think, quite theological because Michael is like comparing all of the various contents from all the different views.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think that it's a much more readable, digestible version in his book.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd very encourage you to do that.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_00: It is still theologically rich and robust, uh, but it is extremely accessible for folks.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that we are able to do a podcast where we get into the nitty-gritties and dive into the various pieces of this.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're looking for a very accessible uh uh starter guide to the book of Revelation, go pick up the World Made Right.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a fantastic book.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_00: You should go check it out.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, links should be in the description.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much for tuning in, Michael.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for your time.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_00: And uh look forward to being back with you guys next week talking about the book of Revelation.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_00: See you then.