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Reflections · System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Over:
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to longtime listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: In case you didn't hear it, I want to go back to something my friend John said because we need to be very, very clear about this, that structural dissociation is not multiplicity. And I wanna make sure that everyone caught that and what he was saying because there are many, many good things about structural dissociation theory, and there are many wonderful things, especially in structure as in function, that I think they are on track with and that feels congruent with lived experience. But the significant piece is that it changes personality to parts, saying that there is one personality with many parts, which is a very different thing than having more than one personality. And in John's words, when they use personality, they're meaning it as a noun instead of different adjectives that describe a person. So before structural dissociation, it was even in our language as English speakers, like I am beside myself, things like that, where you could use personality as an adjective because everyone has parts.
• 2:34
  Everyone has all these sides to themselves. So even linguistically, personalities made sense. It was not a big deal. That is how it has been for one hundred and fifty years of clinical research and description and etiology and all of our understanding until structural dissociation. So whether you are a fan of structural dissociation or you are not a fan of structural dissociation, it's important that we're clear what we are talking about and what we are not talking about.
• 3:09
  And I also wanna be clear that I'm not a hater. Like, there are so many good things about structural dissociation. And you know, you know that we spent like a year, two years, I don't know, time going through the workbook from the structural dissociation standpoint, the coping skills workbook, because it's fantastic. It is fantastic. And I'm not saying at all that we should just throw out structural dissociation.
• 3:39
  I'm not at all saying that, but I think it has some significant limitations in process that are incongruent with lived experience that hasn't quite been fully developed yet. And John would argue that better than I ever could. And so what a thing to have him as a friend and be able to discuss that in consultation group and be able to distinguish it. But I couldn't. I could not before, which is why I wanted him on the podcast after reading that line in EMDR class.
• 4:13
  It was like a rabbit trail, rabbit hole. I don't know. I fell into it and I needed to chase it out and untangle it because I think it's more significant than we realize. So I'm gonna keep working on this piece and come back to it, because we are actually speaking at ISSTD annual conference this year. And so this is something we'll come back to in that presentation as well.
• 4:40
  But I think it's something that needs to be part of the conversation. And when we are talking about it, we need to understand what we're saying because I think we need to keep what is good, but we also have to be very, very careful that we're not throwing out a part of the experience that we've worked really hard to document really, even all the way up to Simone's research, which is so, so critical in the last year and even this spring. So stay tuned for that because we will be sharing what we learn in preparation for our talk with ISSTD, which actually is already done, and we are rehearsing it, and it's terrifying. But we're going to do it, and we're going to do our best, and it is what it is. So that is our contribution of functioning.
• 5:30
  The other thing I wanna go back to as just we get reoriented and sort of back on the same page trying to work together as a group, It took us a whole year to tolerate seeing all of what we were seeing and knowing all of what we were knowing and feeling all of this and being able to do that while maintaining regulation. And obviously that was harder sometimes than others, and it was pretty brutal all around. But I want to emphasize that the things that we learned from last year were so critical to our development, even though it was really, really hard. Last year was painful. It was unpleasant.
• 6:18
  It was exhausting. And that doesn't even count the external things, like with the family or the pandemic or politics and protests. Like, it was so much and it was so hard. And we obviously struggled and we shared some of that. But I also wanna come full circle because what we learned was how to feel it, how to trust what we were feeling, how to contain it without losing it.
• 6:51
  Like we can't just contain something and not come back to it. We have to be able to process and we have to be able to get it out and we have to be able to experience it and all of these things for healing to actually happen. And I think that's really important because there's a balance between doing that and just dissociating. We can't use a container to dissociate forever, but as a temporary intentional effort to process things in safe and healthy ways. And that is different than just drowning in it.
• 7:32
  So in the past, that would have been like, Colin Ross talks about, like, over or under responding, that balance right in the window of tolerance of I can feel this much safely, but also keep moving through it instead of avoiding it or drowning in it or losing it altogether. Does that make sense? So we were able to see it. We were able to learn about it. We were able to know it, but we were also able to hold it, deal with it, and let it go.
• 8:07
  That changes everything. And here's what's crazy. Even using the birthday party example, we processed that so much. Like, we talked about the birthday party so much and how intense that was. You guys, all that was was a birthday party with good and safe people who wanted to show care.
• 8:28
  Like, all that was was just tolerating the good, and it still took us a whole year to process that. And so can you imagine, just in the context of giving yourself some grace and space to actually struggle because things are hard, if it took us a whole year just to process and tolerate that good experience, does that give us some perspective on how difficult and challenging it is to process something that's actually painful and difficult? Does that make sense? Like, it's a big deal. It's a really big deal, but we were able to do that.
• 9:09
  And here's the good news. Our birthday is actually coming up again. And if that's not a disaster for the podcast just waiting to happen, I don't know what it is. But here's what we said. We talked to our friends and we said sort of proactively, obviously with the pandemic, we can't really gather traditionally.
• 9:35
  And we learned a few things from last year's experience that maybe this and this and this is not helpful. So for example, for us, going out to eat is actually a really hard thing. Like, I know that's what the cool girls do, but for us socially and emotionally, it's too much work for it to actually be pleasant. The other thing is as a deaf person, going to a restaurant is actually really isolating. Like, don't mind going to a restaurant by myself.
• 10:09
  Well, I mean, outside the pandemic, before the pandemic. I could totally go by myself. I could take my notebooks and my journals and my pens and just spread out, tip the people really nice, and just stay in a corner. I'm okay with that if I need to do it. I mean, we don't do it very often because money, but you know what I mean?
• 10:28
  So that's okay. But as far as going with friends, unless you know sign language, and I'm not saying this like backwards oppression, but if you don't know sign language, going out to eat is actually not a fun experience for me because I can't hear. Restaurants play loud music. The lighting is weird. It's hard to see.
• 10:48
  Everyone's excited and talking all at once. Some people talk with food in their mouths. Like, I'm not saying that anyone is wrong because they can hear, but I can't hear. So something like going out to eat is actually exhausting. It is not a fun thing and not necessarily how I wanna spend my birthday.
• 11:09
  It's a beautiful, beautiful offering that they gave me last year, but this is what I learned this year or in the last year. What I have learned about noticing my own needs and being able to say them is that going out to eat is not actually helpful. Picking up food somewhere and going somewhere to eat it, that might be fun, like at a park or bringing it home to a house or something. Like, something like that where it was a more private, smaller, quiet gathering and taking turns talking where there's just one person talking at a time. That's okay.
• 11:48
  But all of these friends in this group of people are all hearing people. And that's wonderful that I have hearing friends, and I love my hearing friends. And I am so grateful for my cochlear implants that make the world so much more of an accessible place. But also at times, I'm just kind of passing, and I'm just trying to get the pieces I can get and hope that I got enough, and I'm guessing the rest. And that is just part of being a deaf person with cochlear implants.
• 12:20
  Deaf people would say that's my own fault because I got the implants. Hearing people just sort of forget. Like, I can't go to loud restaurants with you. I can't go to the river with you. I can't go swimming with you.
• 12:34
  I can't play in the rain with you if you don't know sign language. I just can't. I mean, I can, but we can't communicate because whatever. So maybe I should do a more proactive interaction of teaching my friends sign language, but then that becomes the same cultural micro whatever of, like, let me, in one more area of my life, teach you how to care for me. It's just exhausting.
• 13:06
  It's just so much. And when I'm busy and focused on learning how to care for myself and interact in those ways, that level of advocacy with everything else going on in my life, it's just hard. I don't know. But the point is the point is my mistakes or my cultures or my process of learning, wherever you wanna land it, what I've learned in the last year is what I need and what I don't need and getting better at saying that, which can be really, really hard. But I was able to say to my friends, hey, guess what?
• 13:42
  Our family is still in quarantine, so we can't just go out. But also, for me as a deaf person, a restaurant probably is not the easiest place, especially if it's more than one person. With one person, I can kind of do it, but it's hard work. But with lots of people or a group of people, it's actually, I'm lost. I'm entirely lost.
• 14:07
  And so it's kind of overwhelming. But I can say that now. So I can say, hey, friends, let's not do that activity this year. Instead, let's do this. And so I was thinking, how can I sort of use my own voice and proactively intervene on the pending birthday crisis?
• 14:33
  You guys, I'm just trying to talk about something really neutral as far as trauma. Like, my friends are fantastic people. The birthday drama is really just because it's that new to me to try to practice friendship. So I feel so silly, but it's such a specific example. And so it's easy to talk about on the podcast.
• 14:55
  But I could say proactively, here's what I need. Here's what I don't need. And we are trying to think of an idea of what we could do to practice birthday again because it's important to them and apparently a cultural thing when you have when you have real people in your life. And so trying to find ways to honor that. And so I thought because of our daughter, we're in super strict quarantine still.
• 15:27
  And I've told them that going out to restaurants kind of isn't my thing as far as a group. Like, it's just not fun for me. It's not pleasant for me. It's I'm not I'm just I'm not capable. Like, it's a limitation, and I'm saying that without any cruelty to myself.
• 15:45
  It's acknowledgment and acceptance of a limitation. So that is just just where I'm at. And being able to accept that and offer alternatives of what would be safe and comfortable and enjoyable to me, I decided what we could do is that we could maybe meet at a park and sort of take a physically distant walk. And I could wear my mask, and I could talk to my friends. It's still hard with masks.
• 16:21
  You guys, deaf people and the pandemic, Oh, that's a whole separate trauma. It's an example of medical trauma, actually. But all the masking and trying to understand people and lipread people, it is much harder in Oklahoma where there are like, every battle for an interpreter is a huge battle, as opposed to Kansas City where you can just say, hey, I'm a deaf person. And bam, you have an interpreter just like that, automatically zero questions because they follow the law. But Oklahoma is like, we're not gonna pay for interpreters.
• 17:00
  We don't have any interpreters, and you just have to not. Like, it's okay. Focus. I'm having trouble focusing. So this was my idea.
• 17:10
  See, this is how hard you guys, I know it sounds like I'm rambling, but that's how hard it is to say what you need and ask for it. Like, I can talk all the way around it, but it's really hard for me to just say, hey. I need this, and I don't need this. This does not help me. Could we please do this instead?
• 17:27
  But, you guys, I did it. I texted my friends, and I said, hey. The birthday is coming up next month. So, right, better with lots of advanced warning. I can't really gather indoors because pandemic.
• 17:42
  I don't want to go to a restaurant even outdoors because deaf girl. So here's my idea. What really makes me feel calm and happy and safe and most accessible to other people is just simply going for a walk. There is something about going for a walk that is safe enough for me, has good enough memories for me, and keeps my body engaged enough that I can stay present, not dissociated, not spacing out, not losing time or missing half the conversation. Like, between dissociating and being deaf, I don't know what people are saying.
• 18:34
  So so this is my idea that we just meet and go on a nature walk and call it even. Like, keep it super simple. No presents. No outings. Just let's go for a walk.
• 18:48
  I could do that. There would be connection involved, and maybe that would be okay. Now there's, like, super corona now. It's not funny. So I don't know what this variant is, and I don't know if in a month from now we could still even safely with double masking in six feet or 12 feet or 15 feet.
• 19:11
  I don't know if that's actually even feasible. Probably not at this point. But at least I came up with an idea, and at least I said it directly. Like, I communicated externally what I needed and what I felt. And for me, that was a huge stinking deal.
• 19:28
  And so I'm super proud of myself. I'll have my own birthday walk. I'm gonna play like the Jean Marc card and just be like, hey, we're going on a hike, and let's go for a hike. And I will hike in my own backyard over the hill or to the lake or something. I don't know.
• 19:46
  But at least I have a plan. And here is what is interesting. Once I did the work of coming up with a plan, thank you, new therapist, once I did the work of actually communicating that plan to my friends, which it turns out was actually super simple, you just say it. Once you find the words for it, all you have to do is say it out loud or on a text message or something, and it's actually not complicated. So we got the words out, Our friends were like, Oh, cool.
• 20:24
  That's a great idea. Boom. Simple. Like, they have such a high degree of acceptance and love. Like, it was not even a big deal at all.
• 20:33
  But for me, it was huge and took like six months of work, plus the year of therapy before. But we tried it. We figured it out. We got it done. We had a plan.
• 20:47
  We communicated it to others, and now it's in place. And what has happened because of that is, like, all the stress of it is just gone. It is, like, eleven months later, I have resolved the issue of the birthday. It feels better. I'm at peace with it.
• 21:05
  I can let it go. There's no more big feelings because I've analyzed every bit of information, including talking to my friends directly about, hey. This piece and this piece was hard, or I'm confused, or I felt this, or I didn't know. Like, everybody. Everybody that was there, everybody that was involved.
• 21:25
  And I feel like right now, like, I don't wanna jinx things. I don't wanna tempt the universe when we're still shaking off the dust of 2020, but I feel like right now my relationships are pretty good and stable as far as my capability. Like, I know there's things I'm still learning and things I still need to practice, but I don't feel anymore like there's anything unsaid. And I don't feel anymore like there's something that's stressing me out because it was a trigger for me, and I don't know how to deal with it. I feel like for the first time in months and months and months or maybe ever that I have really handled things directly in the ways I could even though it took me a long time.
• 22:20
  And because of that or with each practicing of that, it really smoothed out the process. And I don't know how else to explain it. Another example to leave the poor birthday party alone and just let that topic die finally or not die. We shouldn't say that. But, I mean, drop it, drop it like it's hot.
• 22:42
  You don't know. If we're gonna drop that topic, to use another example would be a year ago, we were working super hard to go get the podcast award at the ISSTD conference. And it was terrifying. And I remember being in San Francisco, and I remember sitting in the lobby the night before the conference, we were all supposed to go to dinner because, of course, that's what you have to do when you're a deaf girl is go to dinners that you actually can't see. Okay.
• 23:17
  You guys, here's what's funny. It turns out I know this now because these people have become my friends now. Like, over time, like, I've gotten to know them through writing and through individual podcasts because I can hear that with my equipment. Right? But not at the dinner.
• 23:33
  At the dinner, I was sitting between Michael Salter and Peter Maves and across from Heather Hall and somebody else. Like, now these are people I would love to just go to dinner with and have a conversation, but no. No. I, like, could wave. Michael McCoy gets a shout out.
• 23:51
  Christine Forner gets a shout out. They handled all of that stuff so well. I took my picture. Warwick Middleton was like, hey. I remember you.
• 24:00
  And Renee fun of me talking about the birds on the podcast. Like, I love these people in my heart so much. But for me as a Deaf person, sitting in the lobby, scared to be seen, like, so terrified to have to go to this dinner. And then we go to the dinner, and I can't hear anything. But you know what?
• 24:22
  It was fine. The food was amazing. People were super nice. And then I tried to run away, but the girls that I work with from the office were like, no, no, no. If we have to stay, you have to stay.
• 24:37
  Oh, I'm sharing too much information. Okay. So the point is I worked really, really hard in therapy to get ready for that conference, and then that's the one the pandemic canceled. And so it was heartbreaking, except here's the thing. I had already done the work to be ready, including and specifically to have my picture taken.
• 25:03
  So you know what happened? This is what I was trying to tell you, not about eating octopus with Peter Mays. But what I'm trying to tell you is that because I had done the work to get ready for that, which is a simple, simple thing, like those people who have worked so hard and had their pictures taken a hundred thousand times for ISSTV or for different awards or whatever. For them, it's no big deal, or maybe it's super special. Like, I don't know.
• 25:30
  But for me, it was a big, big deal for a hundred reasons, but specifically to get my picture taken. I worked so, so hard on that, so, so hard on that. And when the conference was canceled, it was like a free pass. Like, you don't have to do what you thought was gonna be really, really hard. Right?
• 25:53
  Except when the pandemic hit, what happened was everything moved online. And it was very, very difficult for me to do the Zoom videos and to be on screen and things like that. But because I had done the work I had, even though I didn't need it in the way I thought I did, I got to keep all of that work I had done, which made it possible to do telehealth with therapists, to attend ISSTD meetings online, to go to classes for ISSTD on Zoom, to see safe people that I recognized and go, okay, because that person's there and because I've practiced this, I have enough resources internally and externally to try something new. So I even did like the EMDR class, which has been done so well in the context of EMDR and specifically with dissociative disorders. So if you're interested in that, please look for that with ISSTD in the future when they start the next round of classes.
• 27:07
  They've not asked me to plug that. I don't mean to get in trouble for doing so. But I'm just saying it's fantastic. And I was able to do it because I had practiced these other things. And then because I knew Peter and felt safe with him and our friendship was solid, I was able to join him in that weekly consult group, which gave me more practice being on camera.
• 27:31
  Sue Baker's like, I cannot see your face. Go ahead and sit. You can't mess around with Sue Baker. So I got practice. I got practice being on screen and not avoiding it because in a supportive way, they were not letting me get away with it.
• 27:49
  And so I really, really had to practice, and it gave me not just exposure to, I don't mean that because that can sometimes be so triggering and backfire, but in a supportive environment. No, no, no, no. Not even supportive environment, In supportive relationships, I was able to practice being present and doing hard things so that what felt impossible two or three or five years ago has become like everyday experiences for us now. And I think that that is really, really huge. And so whether you're talking about birthday parties or whether you're talking about Zoom, there is something to be said about not avoiding what's hard and experiencing what you need to feel for the reasons of growing as a person, as a system, and for honoring what you have been through and the information or others inside or or whatever pieces that you glean from those big feelings.
• 29:11
  So for example, I told the kids the kids were having big feelings because everyone has big feelings, you guys. But the kids were having big feelings one day, and I don't even remember why. I it doesn't even matter because that's their privacy. But they were having big feelings one day, and then they thought they were gonna be in trouble. And I'm like, guys, listen.
• 29:34
  You are not in trouble for having big feelings. But also, big feelings are not reality. Like, feelings just carry the information. And right then, as I was saying this, I saw through the front window, which we're working on that because that's a whole different trigger, but it's okay. We're learning.
• 29:54
  Like, the Amazon guy who brings the medical supplies for our daughter, like, crossed in front of the window, dropped the package, and went back to his truck. Freaks me out every time. He's like, we don't have to hide in the closet anymore as far as giving ourselves grace and compassion for progress, but I'm still not comfortable with the idea that somebody randomly shows up at the house. So we made a lot of progress on that. But, anyway, I was thinking big feelings are just like that, you guys.
• 30:22
  And I told this to the outside kids. The big feelings are like the Amazon person delivering the package, but you don't invite the Amazon person inside your house. You take the package they bring, and that's what you bring into your house because you ordered it. So your big feelings are just sort of the delivery person who thank you for saving the world during the pandemic, by the way, but they are the delivery person. Your big feelings are the delivery person.
• 30:58
  But what you want is the information inside the feelings. Does that make sense? So you are trying to tell yourself, this is important to me because, and I have information about this that you need. So I'm bringing it to you, and it comes to you through the delivery of the big feelings. But you don't have to keep all the big feelings.
• 31:23
  You can get the piece of information out of it and let go of the rest. And you guys, I feel so much lighter and so much freer in the last, I don't know, five, six, ten weeks after delving into the darkness of 2020 and all that we endured there. And I know things got scary, and I know we shared pieces of that, and I know things were super, super hard. But that's why you don't give up, and that's why you don't let go even when it feels like you might because there's so much information still to learn and because there's so much real life happening around it that is worth choosing to investigate, to be curious about, to learn from, and grow within. And that has been a powerful thing.
• 32:24
  So I want to share this. So all of that to say that I wanna go back to something I found in an email to one of our therapists from last year. Oh my goodness. I don't know if it got read on the podcast or not. And if it did, forgive me because I'm still trying to catch up.
• 32:44
  But it seemed important enough and felt powerful enough, at least for us, of the things that we learned from last year then I wanted to make sure that we share them. So if it's the second time we share them, then I'm sorry. But they were super important to me, so I'm sharing them for me at least, even if it's a second time. And if they've not been on the podcast yet, then here you go. But I found this old email.
• 33:13
  It's all the way back from September. And so I honestly don't know. I tried to figure it out, and I couldn't figure it out. So I'm just gonna read it. But it says, this was so hard, and it literally took me a year, but here's where I'm at and what we are learning.
• 33:31
  And then it's a list of things. So number one is now time is not the same for everyone, just like memory time is not the same for everyone. So now time is not the same for everyone. Like, memory time is not the same for everyone. I think that has been a huge thing of the last year between the politics of what's coming out.
• 33:52
  People are literally not reading the same news, for example. And so we have this super divisive thing happening in our country with politics, where people understand the same situations very, very differently depending on their sources for news. And the algorithms of social media, did you guys see that on Netflix, I think it was, where it explains how the algorithms of social media are set up so that you only see people like yourself, which is part of why things have become so contentious. And then even with the pandemic, even if you take the politics out of the pandemic, is how it should be maybe, but you know, even if you take the politics out of the pandemic, there are some of us, like our family, who has been very strict about quarantine the entire time. We are in week 50, you guys, of being home alone with six children twenty four seven.
• 34:57
  Week 50, you guys. So so yay for dissociation because the husband's been present for all of those fifty weeks. We've at least been able to take turns. I don't know. I don't know if that counts as fifty weeks if you get to take turns, but the husband, he's been there, the faithful steward for fifty weeks.
• 35:22
  And so that's been necessary for our family, but we were able to pull it off because we were able to transition our work to be online. But you guys, not everyone's been able to do that. I mean, are nurses and doctors or teachers or other people who have jobs that they cannot let go of their jobs and they could not do their jobs from home. And so literally to provide for themselves or their families, they had to go to work or all kinds of situations. So now time, even with shared experiences, are not necessarily the same.
• 35:57
  So number two, safe is also not the same for everyone. And that includes experiences with others inside internally as well, because what is safe for me may not be safe for someone else. And sometimes we have to offer some grace or compassion for loving and accepting parts of ourselves that need a different level of safety or a different kind of safety than maybe what we ever thought about before. Number three, other people can still be good even if they don't choose me back. Not being chosen is a trigger, but that stuff is memory time, not now time.
• 36:42
  Number four, I'm still good even when not chosen. Them not choosing doesn't change who I am. I am good because of who I am, period, not because of what other people think of me or whether or not they want me. Being me is doing my best even when I have different experiences or ideas or opinions or capacities. And that is true for all of you.
• 37:09
  I mean, all the parts of you. That is still true. Five, incongruence is a trigger for dissociation. Recognizing this helps me learn from other parts of me instead of thinking something terrible has happened or I am wrong or bad or should be ashamed. My brain reads neutrality and incongruence and lack of response as danger.
• 37:35
  But knowing that helps me step back and find someone to ask for help determining what is or isn't danger in now time and what's just my brain warning me just in case. And I feel like this is something we're getting better at. I feel like we've made huge strides in this area, but it's still very intentional and difficult work. Ruptures are triggers for defenses, primarily for withdrawal and isolation. This is my brain trying to keep me safe.
• 38:06
  It makes sense. My brain wants to protect me. Mueller at a recent conference said, ruptures escalate until they are dealt with. Not dealing with a rupture is a good way to build up your walls brick by brick, which increases dissociation, and that is not the same as managing it. I feel like we have spent the last month or two trying to manage the pain of all of last year in that way.
• 38:35
  But coming full circle through it, I think sort of gives you your own street cred. So, like, just like that early work to get ready for the ISSTD conference that was then canceled, but because of that work, I was ready for life on Zoom in 2020. This is the same thing. When you start getting stronger, like building muscles to be able to work through small things, whether that's big feelings or conflicts or a trigger that's specific to you, the more you're able to handle small versions of that, the more prepared you are for being able to handle bigger chunks. And that takes practice.
• 39:18
  But every time you do, you get to keep that experience. Like, it's a resume so that you start building skills of healing instead of just your list of trauma, which is huge, and it's actually the very thing that sets you free. Number seven, this can also go back to incongruence in that a rupture can reveal actual safety concerns that are more subtle or relational that I wouldn't notice otherwise. So big feelings help get my attention, But it's important to pay attention and learn instead of just assuming I'm wrong or that other people are bad. Then I can adapt in healthy ways instead of staying frozen or afraid.
• 40:04
  Dealing with it directly helps me move forward instead of being stuck. Kabam. Like, I don't have anything else to say about that one. Number eight, all relationships have ruptures. Healthy relationships repair the ruptures.
• 40:22
  Unhealthy ones don't. And Mueller said that brings the trigger back like an elephant in the room. And the longer it's not addressed, the more damage it does to the relationship. That makes sense. I can see that.
• 40:36
  Number nine, some people are just polite. They don't actually care about you. They just have good manners or think themselves to be good people and love everyone. Don't give away pieces of you to people who don't actually treasure them. If they really care, they will initiate and be responsive in ways that provide attunement and are meaningful to you specifically.
• 41:02
  But just because someone is nice to you doesn't mean they want to be in your life or that they will treat you well if they are. Number 10, when they don't and you keep trying, two things are happening. You have mirror neurons trying to mirror their polite ways and effort to seek attunement, but are really just losing your own self respect by trying so hard to connect when you are only receiving disconnect. All relationships take both people. And second, you are acting out the grooming your abuser did to you when you were little by being nice to people who are hurting you.
• 41:42
  It took us a whole year to figure out all of those pieces, but they're huge. So having those pieces and the relational practice that we've gotten, being able to notice our own needs, and then going back all the way to considering structural theory as and what that implies about dissociation as a process rather than just the structure of dissociation has given us a lot to think about. And we're trying to wrap that up a bit so that we can have ways to talk about it because we think it needs to be in the conversation somehow. So we are working on that. But the other thing that we have really big news to share that we are working on and want to announce is that we are releasing a book, and the book is coming out soon.
• 42:39
  We will give more details, but I'm super excited because it's been very hard work. Some of it is very difficult to share or to read, but they will be pieces that you can skip or are just part of a trauma story and so necessary in honoring some of that experience. But I think has helped us sort of finally get to a place where I think even though we have things to still work on and things to still process, that we are in a place of being back on the same page and cooperating together and more present and aware of what our pieces are in the past and who we want to be in the present and what that's going to look like as we present ourselves moving forward into the future. And there's something stabilizing about that even if we're not finished. And developing friendships despite the pandemic and colleagues with ISSTD and through the classes and identifying allies of people who understand DID, who also know us, and who can be supportive and encouraging and trusting that process and letting it be and staying present with all of that without running away physically or emotionally, I think, is a big deal and sort of brings us into whole new territory that's going to be very exciting to see how it unfolds.
• 44:38
  So we are here. We are trying. We are learning and grateful for your encouraging words and continued support as we try to do so. Thanks for listening.
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: Thank you for listening. Your support of the podcast, the workbooks, and the community means so much to us as we try to create something together that's never been done before, not like this.