Latest / Skin Anarchy / Dr Sam Bunting, Dermatologist and founder of Dr Sam’s Skincare

Transcript

Dr Sam Bunting, Dermatologist and founder of Dr Sam’s Skincare · Skin Anarchy

• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Very excited to introduce you guys to Dr.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Sam Bunting, who is not only an amazing educator on Instagram, YouTube, all these amazing social channels, but she is a dermatologist and the founder of her own skincare line called Dr.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Sam's Skincare.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: So welcome to the show, Sam.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited you're here.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's a pleasure to be here.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's so nice to connect.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's lovely connecting, and I'm so glad that we're finally doing this.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: I have so many questions for you, but I want to get started because with like just like a background on you and just how you got into dermatology, all the nitty-gritty um details, if you want to get us started there.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: Of course.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I grew up in Northern Ireland, which was, you know, a place that didn't have an awful lot of glamour, if um, I'm honest, Ecta.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I always loved beauty and fashion.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I I was reading Vogue from at the age of 10, and I looked up to people like Dr.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: Lisa Erin.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: I saw her as New York's leading dermatologist, and she had this, you know, practice that bridged skin beauty and disease and kind of, you know, melded it all into one.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I I ended up going to medical school at Catonbridge University and, you know, plowed through the tough years as a junior doctor, but always kind of knew that I wanted to find my way in dermatology because it it really did have the kind of the sort of the helping people part of the job, but also that kind of ability to enhance the way people looked and felt about themselves.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I kind of knew my path very early on, but that's not like the traditional path in the UK.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: So it meant that I kind of had to wander off the path a little bit.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I ended up um setting up my private practice.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: Gosh, it's like I don't know, 10 years ago now.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and at the time I was doing a little bit of brand work for other companies.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: I was doing some TV work.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: I presented a TV show called Extreme Beauty Disasters, which was good fun.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I learned how to talk to a camera.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um then I worked with Dolce and Gabbana when they launched skincare for a year.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: I was their global brand ambassador.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I got to do some really fun stuff.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, all this like learning from both my private patients, but also working with brands.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: I I was really clear that there was a space in the skincare market.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I didn't, I didn't want to do that straight away.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: I started to build my online presence because social media was kind of kicking off around then.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I started the YouTube channel, um, developed a presence on Instagram, you know, made some connections and I was looking after a lot of the beauty PR in London anyway, because our practice was, you know, just kind of very accessible.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I was this kind of quite young doctor talking about beauty in context of dermatology, which felt quite fresh at the time.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I finally got around to actually making products about five years ago, and it really was like a long process, but I think it happened at exactly the right time for me.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: I had this kind of knowledge about the beauty business that I don't think many other doctors get exposed to in quite the same way because I was working with brands, I was talking to consumers online, you know, through my kind of very agnostic channels, um, because the YouTube channel at that time was really just about educating people and how to, I guess, demand more of their own skin and what to look for.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there wasn't the plethora of information about skincare ingredients available at that time.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: So people were looking for products that would make a difference, but it wasn't quite as easy to find them then without going to a doctor's office.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: So it was really about democratizing that information, that education, and making it more accessible.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: And ultimately that's how I ended up sort of funneling into the brand.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know, my private practice is, you know, has certain kind of um uh not everybody's gonna come to it.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's an expensive business going to see a doctor about your skin sometimes, but I wanted to create a brand that was for everyone, that was a way of solving problems like breakouts and pigmentation and redness, the kind of stuff that I was seeing every day in my patients.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: But I also know that there's a massive audience out there who struggle with their skin.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I wanted to create something simple, elegant, trusted, but ultimately transformational.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: So that's been really the project for the last four years.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: And here we are.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: We're about to launch our 12th product on Sunday this week.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I'm still excited about it every single day.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's been the best thing I've ever done with my career.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm just delighted to be able to talk to you about that today.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, no, I love that you know, you you went into the whole journey of you being on both sides of this fence, right?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that is to me, that's one of the most unique aspects about you specifically and why I really wanted to um have you on the show because see, I hear like I feel like I hear either side of the story, and it's never like this like mixed, you know what I mean?
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like just this mixed perspective where someone is saying, I've seen this both sides, you know, from both sides, and I know what's like lacking.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you could say in the sense of education of consumers, because you know, going back to your point on YouTube, I completely agree with you.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: YouTube has always been, you know, I remember being, you know, on there for medical stuff, right?
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like looking up like cool, cool images and stuff or cool videos about medical stuff.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I um, you know, I always wondered about skincare, like what is it that people need to understand?
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that's been such a journey for this industry.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that's something I really want you to tell us about in terms of um as you've grown on social media and you've seen the change of, you know, from people going from like no skincare brands out there to like a plethora.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: What are some of the um the changes you've seen in terms of uh the questions that people have, consumers, um patients, etc.?
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, I think, I mean, I think the wealth of knowledge is out there and how you know much of an appetite there is for people to educate themselves.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's probably slightly surprising.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I have a Facebook um closed group of skincare aficionados who, you know, their knowledge is just extraordinary, as is their their appetite for it.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think sometimes you can almost get to the point where you think that is what the average consumer is like.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, that's not the case.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I kind of really try to keep with, you know, putting with my YouTube content, the kind of the different types of skincare consumer in mind.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: So whether you're starting out for the first time and just really need the kind of the basic education around structuring a really simple but effective routine, what things are worth your investment, what things are, you know, extras that you don't really need.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but also to keep, you know, interested, that kind of really knowledgeable person who's always looking for what's next, what's new, what's exciting.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I think, I mean, probably the biggest kind of problem area is that there is access now and there is this sort of appetite for newness, people using too many products um together and maybe not having quite the right kind of plan in place.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I suppose that's one of the things that with the brand I was really passionate about was building a really clear structured routine, no matter what way you're using my brand, so that you know exactly what you're doing and there's no real room for error.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because I think that's what I see.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: There's great products out there, but not necessarily the information to ensure that the customer gets the most out of them.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, that's why, like how to use a retinoid, like you know, our retinoid um video content on YouTube, there's probably more than 15 videos now because there's a lot to know, you know, particularly when it comes to things like using a retinoid around the eye area or on the neck, you know, or using a retinoid in winter, there's a lot of nuance to it.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there's a reason why we have to treat the gold standard um ingredient with respect.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, when you get people who are able to use these products for the first time, you know, their mind is blown at what they can achieve with their skincare.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I quite frequently get people emailing me from, I don't know, far-off lands going, you're the first person who's ever really made me understand how I use a retinoid properly and my acne is transformed because of it.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that makes you feel good, right?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: That makes you feel like, you know, it we're not just creating videos for video's sake, we're actually doing it to make people's lives better.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um is important.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think, I mean, and I agree with you on that.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: But really for me, you know, Sam, honestly, it's it's been so interesting looking back on just skincare and the and the culture that's built around it in terms of both medicine and obviously, you know, social media consumerism, all that stuff.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but like for me in terms of medicine, I found it to be very interesting that skincare and the idea of a skincare routine became it came, it was almost like a well-kept secret that came out of like a dermatologist's office and out into the space of, you know, just the general consumer at some point.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not sure when that happened exactly because I'm not gonna lie, growing up, you know, we didn't talk about skincare routines.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't talk about, you know, uh this step followed by this step.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: So that is really where I get very interested, um, you know, in terms of when we started as a society, like merging um into this concept of wait a minute, there's this thing called a skincare routine.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it's actually backed by medicine, it's backed by doctors.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you go to a dermatologist, they're gonna give you that a nice cleanser or that, you know, they're gonna give you what you need for your problem.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so this transition is what for me is the most interesting because I think that's where we lost a lot of that, you know, doctor-to-patient education aspect.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: So like that's where I get very interested, especially with someone like you, because you're I feel like you're like retaining that and carrying it forward.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like through all your videos and stuff.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, I want you to speak on that a little bit in terms of like consumer education around skin health and how that is for you as a medical uh professional and relaying that information to the general public.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I mean I think that was it was around like 2014, because I think it was when the beauty influencer really became a thing.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I suppose it it meant that a lot of people who, you know, without being rude, were are amateurs in the space, were coming online with their opinions, which is completely fine, but they ended up elevated, probably in a way they didn't expect to be, and people started, you know, essentially taking advice from them.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I think it really was about just establishing like a little bit more common sense in the skincare space.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: And this was around the same time I think we started to get access to these kind of you know active ingredients that before were largely handed out by doctors, and therefore there was an education piece because people were sitting in front of their dermatologists and getting the advice and how to use these things.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: So it's the access and then the I think the awareness that happened pretty much around this same time that led to this, you know, a lot of people getting access to really quite potent skin care that does need this kind of careful um guidance around how to use it best and also what things to combine with what, because at the end of the day, you know, managing acne or rhosacea or melasma without a doctor to guide you, these are, after all, skin diseases.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they may have a cosmetic element, but they're diseases and it's it's it's a challenge.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's fascinating to me because I'm really passionate about that.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: I love empowering people who maybe have no idea how much better their skin could be.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know, when you've grown up with acne, and maybe your mom and dad had acne, your brothers and sisters have acne, 85% of the people at school had acne.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: You can often just accept it as part of your lot.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: This is what I'm stuck with.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, it never gets old for me.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: Helping somebody, I've had patients come to me in their late 40s, early 50s, getting clear of acne for the first time in their adult life.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's extraordinary.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: People don't know how much better their lives can be.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: That kind of feeling of comfort in their own skin, the confidence, the not relying on makeup, the not worrying about what's appeared overnight when they go to the mirror in the morning.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: There's that little gray cloud that just hangs over everything about how you present yourself, whether you're, you know, giving a talk at work or you're going on a date.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't know.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_02: I I the power of that to change people's lives for me is is an awesome thing.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't really care the medium through which I'm helping people get get get that kind of improvement in their lives.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: They can come to me in the office, they can watch my videos, they can buy the products.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's just it's just great to share that knowledge in the correct way to treat skin so that you know, it's important to enjoy your skincare routine.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, we've all become very, you know, reliant on our skincare routine as a form of self-care, particularly the last couple of years with the pandemic.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: But it is first and foremost a thing of function, and it should be making your skin look better.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that is exactly, you know, that that really was the point of because, you know, this idea of function is very um much tied with things like doses and titrating your, you know, your actives and making sure that everything is in this nice chemical balance, right?
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: When we're putting it on our skin.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where I think what you said earlier about your own line, I I found that to be very intriguing because you know, um, when you said that I'm fine, I was finally able to give people these ingredients in the right amount, and that's huge, right?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, like what for I want to know the process um that went behind that for you when you were formulating um your line in terms of how figure out is that perfect dose, you know what I mean?
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, all those details.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I knew that if I was gonna make skincare, I didn't want to just produce more of the same that was already on the market.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like I, you know, in my practice before I had my own products, I had a very carefully honed collection of things that I would use so that I could give my patients a full routine, which meant there was no guesswork.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: They weren't gonna go around and wreck it all by using the wrong cleanser that they bought at the drugstore, you know.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: So it was this complete solution I would let them leave the office with and clear instructions on how to use everything, how much, how often, where to put it, you know, 13 dot technique, all of those little tricks that just make sure somebody knows exactly what they're doing and there's no guesswork.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: That was the secret to getting good results in the clinic.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I knew for the brand I had to recreate that same approach.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: That was the key to getting people to stick with things and not jump around and hop from product to product, um, things that I knew just weren't serving people when it came to you know getting results.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: But then it's a question of well, how do you get people to use the right things in combination?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: Now, of course, you can give them individual serums with one ingredient and you know get them to use two or three things together.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and knowing the pharmacology, part of my my degree at Cambridge was in pharmacology.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I've always been fascinated by you know the mode of action of all these things when you put them on their skin.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: But the best results happen when you combine active ingredients together.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: Now, for me, to give that to a consumer to use, the easiest thing to do is to put the right ingredients together in a single formula.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the challenge that I set myself, Ecta.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: And that is not a simple thing to do, you know.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: I I can honestly say that I am so grateful to my chemist who formulates the products with me because she's been so patient.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: Some of her formulas for the serums have taken like two to three years to get done.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like one of them took nearly 40 goes before we kept tinkering with it.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: Something would go wrong, we have to tinker with it again, we play with the concentration.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: So a huge amount of work went into getting just the right amount of each of those active ingredients.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know, nightly serum has four active, so does brightly.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, and some of them don't really want to stay together with other ingredients.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to really work hard um to make sure everything's emulsified properly and the stability's there.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm really proud of our serums because they are they're they're unique.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: There is no other product in the market that does what neutralizing gel or nightly serum or brightly serum does.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and they're easy to use because they're a single serum, you know, crammed with actives, um, and the whole system designed to work together.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: So you get almost the kind of results you'd expect from a doctor prescribed regime because everything is working together in synergy.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_02: The cleanser, the moisturizer, the sunscreen, the serums, you know, that's why I created the system.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's a bit like, you know, buying your computer from Apple, right?
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: You use the accessories because everything works efficiently together.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have to make loads of choices.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's a really simple experience.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I wanted to do with the Dr.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: Sam skincare.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I I really, you know, it's it's interesting to me because, you know, when you were describing the um multiple, you know, iterations of the serums, I I completely get it.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm chuckling inside because I'm like, yes, you know, in the true spirit of science, you know, like you over and over again until you get it perfect.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, and I love that you've done that.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really, you know, was at the heart of that question I asked you.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because let's be honest, you know, the amount of care that it takes to really understand chemistry and to obviously integrate it into medicine in a very practical, usable way is is quite the feat.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: So when you said that yes, you said you definitely set the bar very high for yourself.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: I will say that.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you really set it high.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so when you're aiming for that, that is in incorporating things like, you know, medicine, chemistry, physiology, pathophysiology.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's a lot of science coming to the middle ground and like formulate that that's why, you know, the product works, right?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's the idea, is that is you're able to, and that's what I'm always trying to get people and especially our audience to understand about skin health, is that it's not about what are the ingredients, it's about how much of what ingredient is there and what does that ingredient do for all the other ones that are there?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Does it potentiate it, which is help it?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Does it, you know, uh, you know, kind of uh cancel it out?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, those kind of questions need to start coming to the forefront.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I would love for you to kind of um explain to us, you know, in terms of actives, because I know this is a conversation everyone is very curious about what active should we use when, you know, et cetera.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: But I want you to go through and tell us what actives can we use together that are safe to use and um, you know, and what are some things we should be mindful of for things that are not so safe to use?
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, that's a good question.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I I mean, for most of the common skin concerns that we see, so whether it's, you know, rough texture, um, you know, dull complexion, pigmentation, signs of sun damage, um, I you know, the majority of those things benefit from retinoid use.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, retinoids are a big group.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we can do over-the-counter, we can do prescription grade with things like tretinoin.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: But either way, they are switching on cell receptors in the skin in pretty much pretty much every you know, cell type in the skin.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: So blood vessels, pigment cells, you know, skin cells, um, all of those types of cells are affected.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: So that's why they have the potential to have the most transforming effect on the skin.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: So for me, most routines, aside from those with very sensitive skin or you know, active rosacea, their routine is gonna be anchored by retinoid use.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: Now, when you have like you put your first building block in when it comes to actives, it then tends to allow you to build the house quite easily because it's like, okay, well, the retinoids, you know, going to be used at night because they're generally um uh unstable when it comes to UV exposure.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: So we've got our retinoid in the nighttime slot.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: Daytime is frequently about protecting against the environment, or if you've got an inflammatory skin condition using some sort of anti-inflammatory.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: So we're talking about antioxidants, um, some of the most kind of evidence-based that we know are most effective, that have lots of different benefits the skin are things like vitamin C and niacinamide.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: And then maybe you've got something like, I don't know, melasma, redness, you're looking for azoleic acid to regulate.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I have my kind of toolkit of things that I I go to time and time again because of their versatility.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: And the fact is, most people are tackling more than one issue at any one time.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, the acne sufferer with a bit of pigmentation who's also a bit dull, you know, boom, that's your retinoid, that's some niacinamide, that's some azaleic acid, that's a lovely cocktail right there.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: And it's rare that you need to go beyond three or four ingredients.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, the retinoid limits the nighttime part.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: So then you're working with your morning time space because I'm a practical person.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: I don't expect anybody to layer more than one or two active products at one sitting.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: And then you just cherry-pick the ones that suit your particular concerns the best.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, in terms of things that don't really go together, I mean, I think a lot is sort of talked about this, but in reality, retinoids I like to use in their own at night generally, because I think they're so important.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: You definitely don't want to risk either irritancy because you're combining something.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Else with them or inactivating them because you're using something with the wrong pH.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I tend to use my retinoid products in isolation, you know, for the main.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: They work very nicely with niacinamide.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: So that's quite a good combination.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: So you might use a moisturizer with some niacinamide in it with your retinoid at night.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: Daytime, if you're tackling pigmentation, like I said, vitamin C, azoleic acid, alpha hydroxy acids like glycolic acid, those all go quite nicely together.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, benzyl peroxide, you have to watch a little bit.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: That can inactivate other ingredients and it's inherently quite irritant.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're treating acne, I would tend to say your retinoid at night, benzy peroxide in the day, unless you're using a combination treatment like epigeno.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: But those are two ingredients that, if you separately, are best kept apart from each other.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: But beyond that, major contraindications, like I think most other combinations can be worked, but you just separate them out if they if they have a greater potential for irritancy.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's mostly what we're trying to avoid is stacking too many irritating actives on top of each other.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: And most actives that work have a potential for a little bit of irritation.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I think the best way to do it though when you're starting out is to build a routine, one active ingredient at a time.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: The problem is people get excited.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: They want to start two or three things.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe they heard their friend was using this great thing, they saw another thing on Instagram, and you know, they saw another thing in the lure or something.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: So it's about being patient, getting a feel for what your skin likes and what it doesn't like, um, and knowing that most benefits are achieved over the course of weeks to months of setting yourself realistic goals and having realistic expectations.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: So those I think are the really kind of core things about building a good routine, using the right stuff, and then being consistent, you know, giving things long enough to actually do their thing.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I thank you so much.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: That was such a wonderful answer.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I think, you know, I hope everyone listening out there, you took notes because, you know, that's the exact information we I mean, let's be real, you know, at the end of the day, there's a lot of people on TikTok.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think Sam, you mentioned this before, there are a lot of people out there that are putting on the you know highest strength of like an acid peel and then something else.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and it's just it's a nightmare to even think about, right?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so what if the more we can learn from doctors, the better.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: And and this really leads me to asking you a question that I've started to kind of notice around skincare lines, is that a lot of practitioners have started coming out with their own lines because not because they're trying to make a quick buck, but because I think they have this different philosophy or maybe a little tweak to their philosophy in how and what patients need in terms of good, what we consider to be good skin health and the way your skin looks.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, was that a factor at all for you that you um kind of had in the back of your mind when you were, you know, you decided to make a line?
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: Was that, you know, I know how to treat people and I I think I'm just gonna do it myself.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, what what was that um that aspect of the journey like?
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I honestly believed I could do things better.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I I I'm not an arrogant person.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: I I I just felt that the the products that I had access to that I I used repeatedly and I would give to my patients and they would come back and they give me feedback.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: I just felt that there was there were ways that almost all of them could be improved.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, that's just being immersed in that space for, you know, 20 years and being fascinated by what made a product stick, you know, as much for myself, like I'm the ultimate skincare consumer, you know, I I've spent the money on cult products back in the day and been disappointed or been surprised when it didn't suit my skin or it made me break out.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I've always struggled a bit with my skin's tendency for not only acne, but now as I've gotten a bit older with redness, um, I'm Irish after all.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I I I guess I felt like if I could make products that please me and you know, I felt like I could offer to my patients at a at this sensible price point because I I didn't want to be as expensive as some of the more expensive cosmoceutical brands.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: Because, you know, at that time a lot of doctor brands were doing, you know, quite punchy price points.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: Many still are, in fact.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I just thought, you know what, it they don't need to be that expensive.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: And that was the main reason for me going down the direct-to-consumer model.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I didn't want to create something that was so spendy that it wasn't accessible by lots of people.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: I just genuinely believe I was going to put my time and energy into this project.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: It should be because it's going to do something meaningful.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, the products have, I hope, a bit of an aspirational feel.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: They they looked nice, they don't have names that make people feel ashamed because it says something to do with their acne or their breakouts.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they and they look, they look, they're kind of modern, they suit guys as well as girls.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I wanted to create something that was was useful, but also um gave people access to, you know, not everyone's gonna know about something as obscure as azoleic acid as an ingredient I've been talking about for years and was up to a certain point only available on prescription.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know, how amazing that we now have access to it in non-prescription products.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so stuff like that.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: I just I felt really strongly that I could give people access to things that might not otherwise, you know, be known about because sometimes the skincare industry is a little slow to catch up with what's happening in the kind of doctor office space.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and just make it useful, make it easy to use, make it um, you know, no ingredients in there that are gonna cause problems.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: We don't fragrance anything.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I really focus on the textures because I really believe that even if you're trying to solve a problem, you still want to enjoy the finish and the feel of your products, particularly when it comes to things like sunscreen, where that finish really does determine whether your makeup's gonna sit nicely for the rest of the day or not.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I think it's just paying attention to the little details, to be honest with you, um, and just being a perfectionist, you know, using my own knowledge, my knowledge of the brands, the, you know, the kind of the whole kind of space when it comes to skincare and also what ingredients get results.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I think when you put all of that together, and then you you you know, you you create the kind of the the how-to-use content that makes people really understand how to get the best out of the products.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: That's why I think we have such great um customer loyalty because it's just like a oh, I can breathe now.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: I've got I've got this taken care of.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: I feel, you know, confident, and I know that Dr.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: Sam's has got my back.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I I think that's why people people like the brand.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, absolutely.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's a lot of um definitely a lot of you know uh reassurance that comes with knowing that the dermatologist that has crafted this product is right there, you know, and and that's it's very important.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why, you know, for me, skincare and the skincare industry as well as the medical dermatology, you know, professional community, it's very interesting how everything's coming together at this point because I think for consumers, I think it's very important to understand that, you know, no one is going to have all of the answers.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: But at the end of the day, like whenever you're shopping for skincare or you're shopping for something for something that's you know, a very big organ, and well, the largest organ, but not just that, but like it's it's very reactive, it's very sensitive, it can be, you know, it can be changed, all those things.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's a living, breathing thing.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: When you're working with that, you have to find skincare that is at that middle ground between what you want as a consumer in terms of things like luxury or whatever your criteria are, but then keeping in mind that the medicine better be there, you know, to back it up.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because if it's not, then you can't, you don't know what happens that goes wrong.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: The what if something goes wrong, you aren't able to say, well, it's because of this that that went wrong.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where I feel like I would love to see a lot more consumers um come to that point when they are shopping for skincare, because it's like always be able to explain to your doctor what you did that led to that led to the, you know, and I don't mean laugh, but let's be honest.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like we need to know what's going on before we you can be treated.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, shopping for skincare, that's like, for example, Dr.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: Sam's uh line, you know, at least you know this has been formulated by a dermatologist.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: I can go to her, I can reach out to her team and ask what the heck is happening to my face.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's huge.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's almost like telehealth, like kind of, you know, subconsciously.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, I think you're right.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think it is reassuring to have a figurehead that people kind of already knew before I started to make skincare.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: I do think that's like that's helpful because I think trust is a hard thing to win in skincare.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think people are so used to having, you know, being overpromised to and then having products under deliver um because there is a lot of smoke and mirrors um in skincare.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I think you're right.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think that is definitely reassuring.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, there's no doubt that skincare, um not necessarily bad skincare, but just skincare that's wrong for an individual can create a lot of problems.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, one of the things that I certainly, you know, was seeing when I first like started my private practice was uh, you know, the consequences of things like um long wear makeup um and you know double cleansing with oil cleansers and then a foaming cleanser.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: The combination of those two things was creating a lot of irritability, a lot of clogged up, congested skin.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: And and people couldn't grasp that actually it was a lot to do with their their beauty practices.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: It was actually this new trend, um, different kind of products, and and their skin just not liking it.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's just, you know, the skin often craves simplicity, the fewest products possible to achieve the desired goals.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, in my book is really what most of us want.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, the Korean 10-step or 14-step or whatever it was was popular for a time, but you know, at the end of the day, most people don't want to spend an hour doing their skincare routine.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: They want to get in and get out, enjoy their time doing it, of course, but they want, you know, an efficient, effective routine.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I see a lot of you know, perioral dermatitis that's often triggered by the wrong skincare.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: So it is one of those things that you have to, you know, approach it with respect.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and definitely, as you said before, doing too much is definitely one of the commonest situations I see causing problems for people now.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: There's something of a an extreme sports approach to skincare in some um arenas where you're right, people are using like strong home acid appeals, and maybe they're using a, you know, um a medical roller over the top, and it's just it's just all gone a bit crazy.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I think, yeah, that TikTok hasn't necessarily been a friend to the skin skin concerned individual.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think it's a great place to get education.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: I just I'm not a fan of short form content when you have a skin problem.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: I really do think people should head to YouTube for that kind of content.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um and yeah, be careful of using skincare as entertainment.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: You know, your skin doesn't know it's the weekend.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's something I'm always telling my patients because you don't need to spoil it.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: Know that if you're treating yourself with your skincare, it's for your brain, it's not for your skin.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: Your skin likes to be treated the same way day in, day out.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: So um, yeah, know whenever you're your own enemy.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I think as humans, we all have to be conscious of that.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: No, I completely agree.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: And especially in the world of you know, words like skin detox and skin purging.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just like cringing half the time because I'm like, you want to detox your skin?
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what do you even know what that means?
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like detoxification, like it's just it's a crazy world that we're living in right now with terms and people using medical terms that they don't fully understand and lumping them up with something that's trendy.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really, I'm sorry, you know, I might sound mean when I say it, but that's a huge pet peeve of mine.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: We gotta stop doing it because if you don't know, you know, like what Sam, you just said it, right?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the skin doesn't want to be like shocked in any way, it wants stability.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: Your whole body, you know what I mean?
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't, you don't want to throw your body into what negative uh four degree Fahrenheit, you know, water, right?
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's called is gonna cause shock.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that applies to everything.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: It you don't want to shock any organ.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I agree with you, but things like these words are propagating this culture of creating that, you know, physiological shock for our skin.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then that is going to be altering a lot more things than just appearance.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to end up really impacting you on like, you know, the cell signaling level of your skin and how things are working and why they work the way they do.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: It alters all of that.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: So that's very that's a great point that you brought up.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's definitely something that's not talked about at all, but also that people don't innately understand.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that actually is a segue to my, you know, to my next question for you is this idea of, you know, when the skin, when you stop seeing results, right?
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: People say, well, my skincare doesn't work for me anymore.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: Why do they say that?
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, mostly is because they're not noticing like visible differences anymore, you know.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe that's a point where, you know, with everything, right?
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: With my medications, like they stop working, you know, at certain doses.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: So what is your opinion, your perspective about like, I guess, upping the dose on your skincare uh routine or regimen and your actives that you're using?
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what's your opinion about that?
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: So I did a quote on this recently.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, in in medical terms, we call it tachyphylaxis, whenever a medication plateaus in terms of its benefits and then essentially stops working, and then you know, you're just at risk of side effects.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the commonest um kind of topical medication it displays that is um a topical steroids, a topical hydroquinone to some extent.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: So, aside from those two things, we're talking purely the kind of ingredients I've been, you know, alluding to this evening.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_02: Most of the time they don't stop working.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think if you know the ingredients that work best are those that have an innate physiological function, just as you said.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why vitamin C, vitamin A, vitamin B3, these things work because our skin is already using those nutrients as part of its day-to-day um kind of maintenance.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: And we're just augmenting what is already there naturally.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: So my my colleague Dr.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: Emma Wedgeworth made a great point the other day on Instagram, like physiological, not natural.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's really about you know helping the skin help itself.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: That is really when you know our skin is at its best.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I don't I don't worry.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: Patients, I think, you know, they they they they learn to recognize that you might plateau in terms of benefits, but they don't stop working because these things are fundamental to the way our skin works all by itself.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I I don't, I I think if somebody says my skincare is not working anymore, you know, oftentimes they weren't using the right stuff in the first place.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe there was a a transition from what they were using before to the things they were, you know, the new things that they started using.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: But at the end of the day, I doubt any of those routines are terribly active in their own right.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there's definitely a titration process that goes on.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like if somebody has, you know, melasma, say, as their their concern, we'll often start with a lower potency retinoid and some other sort of pigment suppressor, and we'll titrate up the strength as their skin acquires like, you know, tolerability and and and gets used to those active ingredients.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but that's really more about achieving an end goal, and then we keep titrating up until either we reach the threshold they can no longer tolerate that active ingredient, the combination of, or they reach the end goals and then we hold them there.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: I, you know, there's no real merit in going beyond that.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like I said, this is not about extreme sport behavior.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: We, you know, you find the level that works and then and then you sit tight.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: And usually that's like the sweet spot.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like I find that particularly with my my Tretinoin users, you know, they they find the strength that works for their skin, they don't have the days off that you know anymore.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: The skin just kind of glides along, working well with a nice healthy barrier, and they don't get the kind of irritation side effects that they may have experienced at the beginning.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: And that's you know, that's a beautiful thing.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I'm I'm not too well about skincare getting getting used to the skin ingredients.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: No, I to I completely agree.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you know, what you're saying is the most practical and logical thing I've heard about it.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly, I 100% agree with what you said, but unfortunately, because of the way beauty culture is, there's no such thing as this endpoint, Sam, right?
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's like what yeah.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, I find I tell my patients all the time, you know, this is because the leaf has shifted.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_02: So you get somebody who starts out bad breakouts, bad pigmentation, you know, prominent pores, and you get them 95% better.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like literally, it's like night and day.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_02: I can guarantee you that 5% will then start to take up almost the same amount of space as the 95% problem did.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: They, your attention span just starts to get closer and closer to the mirror, and you focus in on more and more minutia.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_02: So, as much as we have to educate people in how to view themselves objectively because it is such a shame to do all this great work, get your skin better, you know, really make a difference to how the way you look, and then not change the way you feel about yourself, you know.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I think people who struggle with skin problems for a long time, it really does take a while for them to adjust to the mindset that they might not go back to the way things were.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's very interesting, I think, the psychology around skin issues.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, there's definitely a group who just get more and more concerned about smaller and smaller things.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, those are people you said to come up, yeah, let's just step away from the mirror now.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: Let's view ourselves what I call a conversational distance, which is like about, you know, the comfortable distance between two people having a chat.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_02: That is how you should be looking at yourself because that's how the world sees you, you know?
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, would you get in someone else's face and be like, I can see your point?
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's just rude.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: You need to delete that person's number from your phone book.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_02: That's what Yeah.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, honestly, I I agree.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, what would be really cool?
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I just thought about this when you were um, you know, explaining was that it would be cool if I, you know, you started to see more dermatologists' offices or like, you know, in general, um incorporate uh mental health, you know, into the skin consultation visit.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: That would be really cool to have patients come in and then you they really sit down with like a therapist or something and talk about how they're feeling, you know, and the whole psychology aspect, like you mentioned, and then go see their doctor, you know, do the heavy medical side of it, which is getting whatever they need, you know, and then coming back, and then this this therapist is checking in with you as well.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: So you're it's like a you know, a medical diary kind of, you know, of just my skin has improved.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: So everything else in terms of my mentality and the way I'm viewing things has improved.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: And if you start becoming a little OCD, which is what we just talked about in terms of, you know, really you're getting a little too critical of yourself, then you know, you have a way of someone telling you, hey, listen, you know, you're being a little hard on yourself.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that's one of the goals you had, which was I don't want to do that to myself anymore.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that, you know, it's brilliant.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: I love what you're doing, uh, Dr.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: Sam.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: You are one of the, you know, um very few leading female doctors that I really watch on, you know, Instagram or anywhere I can find your content.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm I'm really appreciative of your time and your knowledge and all the wisdom that you've shared.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's an absolute pleasure.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think you're absolutely right.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like negativity bias, unfortunately, when it comes to, in particular, women and their appearance, is something that, you know, we we all need to just check in with ourselves and be our own therapists in a way, because you know, the you know, the the kind of cutting things we say to ourselves and our inability to actually just see ourselves and like all you know, the the natural beauty that we have are good features and not just dwell on on the things that bother us.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, how much happier would people be if if we could approach ourselves like that?
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: The way we approach our best friend when they're having a bad day, you know.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_02: Why can't we be our own cheerleaders a little bit more when it comes to our skin?
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: I absolutely agree.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, 100%.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like just be be nice, be nice to yourself.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: Be nice to everybody else, okay, you know?
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I I agree.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you so so much.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: I can't wait to have you back if you ever have the chance in your schedule because I would love to do like a fun series or something where we talk about cool topics that are coming up if you're down for it.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: But um, that'd be great.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: I'd love to.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me on I thanks, Sam, and uh everyone tuning in.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: Please make sure you check out the concept art for this episode and leave your comments, leave your feedback and questions for Dr.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: Sam, and I will definitely pass them along to our team.
• 43:03
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• 43:11
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• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much, and I will be back next time.
• 43:18
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