Latest / Dispatched & Dysfunctional / From Trauma to Peace: How Faith and Humanity Helped a Blue Line Hero Heal — Tom Lee
Transcript
- Chris Stockton: Alright, welcome back to Dispatch Dysfunctional. Today's gonna be a little bit different. Today's guest is Sergeant Tom Lee. Tom is a mental health deputy with the Harrit Harden County Sheriff's Office. He's been in the field roughly twenty-four years, and he's the author of Scars of the Badge, Faith, Trauma, and Redemption behind the thin blue line. A lot of people know him for one dramatic story, the crossbow story. And look, I get it, that's the kind of thing people hear in a mentally lean forward. ⁓ But this intake said something better. He wrote, It's not just one event, it's event after event. And that's the conversation we're gonna have today. It's not just the visible scars, it's the years behind it, the mental health calls the dispatch silence, the failure, the faith, the redemption, and what peace looks like after carrying this work for more than two decades. I don't know how this man's done that. Tom, before the badge, the book, or the story everybody hears about or asks you about. Who are you really? Not the sergeant, not the author, not the guy with the crossbow story, but who are you when nobody needs ⁓ you just stay calm, be steady or in control? Tom Lee: I mean I love to cook, I love to to hunt, I love to go out and and do regular stuff that most everybody likes to do. I love to play pool. ⁓ I used to love to drink. I don't drink anymore. ⁓ I go ⁓ give out Bibles with ⁓ the Gideon International group. ⁓ so I'm involved in my church. ⁓ I mean I I just love to travel. I just normal normal guy. Chris Stockton: Awesome. Sounds you got a you got a lot of good outlets there too. ⁓ that's awesome. You know, a lot of us in the field, as you said a second ago, ⁓ like to choose the drinking and we shouldn't, and we get away from it, and a lot of the times we find better outlets. ⁓ you know, y you I was talking to you before the show a little bit, and you're a very amazing person. ⁓ and the ⁓ the thing you wrote on your form For instance, of the it's not just one event, it's event after event. That that might be one of the most honest descriptions I've ever f fucking heard. ⁓ because people outside always want one story. They want that one story that, ⁓ what's the worst thing you've ever seen? What's the worst thing you've ever heard? You know, they always want that drama, they always want that BS. And I'm sure a lot of it for you is the crossbow story. and that's again, you know, I don't understand it ⁓ and I don't know how to explain to people that they're missing things. You know, th there's more to it than what they hear, than what they see, and the more we delve into our own brains into it, you know. ⁓ so what do you think that the people that looking from outside in are missing? Tom Lee: Well, so like you said Cops came to Beaumont and filmed. They s they spent a month in Beaumont filming. For one episode. So yeah, one episode. So Chris Stockton: Yeah. Tom Lee: They're wantin' the outlandish stories. That's what people want. They want the most dramatic and I have several stories. I've been doing this long enough that I can tell you a house fire that killed six people. ⁓ I can tell ya about the guy that shot me with a crossbow. If you wanna look right there you can see the scar. ⁓ But there's so much more to it than just the ⁓ those stories. I mean they're not exciting. I mean when you when you go and ⁓ grab somebody that was about to kill themselves or whatnot, and you stop and get them a meal to eat before you get to the hospital, ⁓ who who wants to know about that? I mean th it's not about those things. Chris Stockton: That's the difference. Tom Lee: B that's not glamorous, it's not anything, but there are things that you do that in your everyday work that nobody knows about, but those are the things that really compound over time. Chris Stockton: True. And I I think honestly, like you just said, you know, the the people that we go and I've done it on dialysis runs when I was on a private truck. ⁓ I I've I'll admit it, I've stopped and got a few people some food that they didn't need to get food because the nursing home was assholes. Those patients stuck with me more than any trauma patient I've ever had, more than any medical patient I've ever had. I got to know them more. I got to actually see the person, get to know the person. and and just the small glimpse of humanity that they got to see from outside of those damn walls made such a dri difference to them and it just made them smile. It made their life that much happier for that s five minutes compared to ninety years of depression. Tom Lee: Yeah, and that and that's the thing is it's not glamorous. It's not stuff that people would normally talk about. Like I said, cops filmed for a month to get one episode because out of all the things that they filmed, nothing was exciting enough to put on T V. Chris Stockton: That makes sense. Tom Lee: So the stuff that you normally see is so minor in comparison to the stuff that any of the first responders are doing on a day in, day out basis. Chris Stockton: ⁓ yeah, a hundred percent. And and and you know the the the sad facts of it is the outside world looks at us for the trauma, for the glory, and and the calls that matter, yeah, those matter, don't get me wrong, but ninety percent of our calls, ninety-five percent of our calls Or normally me and all fell down or hey I stumped my toe at three o'clock in the damn morning. You know, i it's not it's not always the dramatic effects. It's someone called for a homeless guy sleeping on the side of the road when it's twenty degrees outside. So you go show up, you give the guy a blanket, you give you you know, you stop by a gas station, grab him some coffee, whatever to make the guy happy, to make him be able to survive through the night. Tom Lee: Yeah, I've actually booked somebody in jail. He he asked me, he was like, Man, I have nowhere to go. It's freezing cold. I was like, what I don't know any resources for you. What do you want? And he was like, Man, I've been drinking. Can you put me in the jail so I could I was like, Okay, PI. Easy enough. Chris Stockton: That works. I mean at least it wasn't a big offense. Tom Lee: No, I know. He he's gonna be out the next morning. But he got he got a warm bed to sleep in, food to fill his belly, and he was happy about it and Chris Stockton: Right. That's that's awesome. Tom Lee: I I I can't say that that's that was a good thing on my part, but it happened. ⁓ Chris Stockton: Well, I mean, in the end though, it was a good thing. Y you know, you you seen him as a human. You didn't see him as a criminal. You didn't see him like a bunch of the guys I know that'd be like, ⁓ screw you, you're just you know, you're just a homeless jackass. You know, you didn't have that mentality to where he was just a piece of crap. And that's where a lot of us fail, I think, at the end, after being in this field for so long, is we get so jaded that we judge and we our compassion just goes to the wayside. Tom Lee: No, j judging in f this field can get you ⁓ in a lot of trouble 'cause Chris Stockton: Right. And that right there, just you know, like you said, okay, maybe you've been drinking, let me get you for a P but he's he was insisting on doing that, and that wasn't you being a dick, like, hey you you you've been drinking tonight, let's go to the jail. It was him wanting to go. You you you were just there to help him and you know, again, some of the things that people don't see or don't hear from us like that makes us ourselves feel so much better because we know we actually helped a life in the end. You know, I may have a few hours but Tom Lee: Yeah, and and that's a great a great thing about my my job now is normally you ⁓ you go take somebody to jail or or whatnot, you take ⁓ to the hospital and you never see it again. ⁓ with my job in mental health now, I'm actually required to go do follow ups with them and keep contact with them after they get out. So I go in ⁓ Talk to ⁓ and I I can't tell you how many people said, Man, thank you for what you've done. You you saved me that night and ⁓ you got me some help that I needed in my lowest hour. So th those are always great stories that you you don't normally get. ⁓ I know when I was on patrol, you put ⁓ in jail or you dropped ⁓ off at the hospital and then deuces you never heard from them again until the next time they called nine one one. Chris Stockton: That's what kills me is I I hate not knowing what happens after I drop someone off. You know, I I loved the when I was off shore working as a medic, I loved it because I would actually get, you know, feedback from surgeons, feedback from doctors or ERs or whoever, 'cause they'd call me on the rig, be like, Hey, you know, this, this, this you did right, this, this and this you did wrong and then I'd see the guy the next freaking month or two after he comes back. You know, and that that I like to see the after effects of what we've helped. You know, just like you were saying. You you get to see their you get to see their faces and and I'm sure on your side of things is there's a lot that you probably still deal with a lot of the homeless and to see them go from being depressed or being down and out to actually talking to people or, you know, even just talking to you. Tom Lee: ⁓ yeah. Chris Stockton: I'm sure it it it brings some them more confidence, it brings them a lot more, you know, self worth in the end as well. Tom Lee: Yeah, and we we have programs where we can get ⁓ If they have a mental health diagnosis or or needing mental health help, I have places that I can get ⁓ in for a night sometimes and for a month stay. ⁓ and those resources will then in turn look for stuff that to help ⁓ out. ⁓ I know there was one guy that we got an apartment for and his monthly rent was like twenty seven dollars. Chris Stockton: ⁓ that's cool. ⁓ that's awesome. There needs to be a lot more of those programs. That's that's awesome. Tom Lee: So Chris Stockton: That I I have never heard something like that one. That that is cool. Tom Lee: Yeah, it I mean ⁓ and it wasn't me doing it. It s I g I got them to the place, they were there, the place found this other place, I actually transported him to that place, it was in Port Arthur and helped ⁓ fill out the paperwork and whatnot. But it only cost them twenty seven dollars a month to live and Chris Stockton: That's that's pretty cool. And that's a good way to help, you know, decrease the homeless population and again, get somebody back on their feet. Tom Lee: Yeah. Well, and a lot of these people, I I can't tell you how many homeless people I've run into wanna be homeless. Chris Stockton: Yeah, that's another thing. Tom Lee: And and I mean what do you do with that? They they like the situation that they're in. They want to be in that situation for whatever reason it is. that is the lifestyle they have chosen for themselves. And you're not changing that. They're gonna always be in that. You I don't care if you offer them a a million dollar ranch that they can be in, they're not gonna be there. Chris Stockton: Yeah. They're gonna go right back to being homeless. And I've actually witnessed that myself. ⁓ we had a a gentleman that the daughter was very wealthy and he decided to live on the streets. Somehow Long story short, we ran on him, got to the hospital, she took him home, he wound up running away and wanted to be homeless again. Tom Lee: I knew the guy that had a had a bank account because I was in contact with his attorney. ⁓ he was going through dementia, but he'd lived he'd lived like that for like a homeless person for many, many years. When the trailer was about to fall down that he was living in. It was in such a deplorable condition. And he has millions of dollars in the bank. That he had access to. Chris Stockton: That just that that boggles my mind. Just the the vast majority of that is psychological in the end, you know? And that kind of brings me back to you know the the line I started with is it's not just one event, it's event after event. ⁓ that's our trauma in plain English, in my opinion, as first responders. ⁓ as we said earlier, you know, the public always wants that one call, you know, the one wrecked, the one dead child, ⁓ the moment where everything's changing. ⁓ but What did the event after event look like for you once you realized it? Tom Lee: So ⁓ like I was I was telling you at the start of the show, or before the s show started, my ⁓ my career started ⁓ at a university. I was working there and ⁓ got kind of sideways with the administration. The and you could y it it was slowly progressing. I I it went I did one thing wrong. ⁓ Chris Stockton: It's all good. Tom Lee: were not to their liking. Wasn't necessarily wrong, but not to their liking. And then all of a sudden I had a magnifying glass on me and it followed me until they ended up firing me for what was ⁓ they called lying during an internal affairs investigation. ⁓ they asked me how fast I went to make a traffic stop. I was like, I don't know how fast I went to make this traffic stop. They were like All I can tell you is it was really fast. They're like, Well, do you think you were doing 80 miles an hour? I was like, Yeah, probably. They're like, ninety? I was probably doing ninety. Were you doing a hundred? I could have been. I I don't know the exact speed I was going. And I was training somebody and the the training guy I found out later said that I was doing 104 miles an hour to make a traffic stop. And ⁓ which I was probably doing, but I I don't know the exact speed I was going. ⁓ and I told ⁓ I'll I I was probably doing that, but that was grounds enough for them to fire me for lying during an internal affairs investigation, ⁓ which ⁓ is pretty much the king's X on your career. ⁓ they they it's very hard to pull out once you get tagged. Chris Stockton: Right. But that shouldn't really matter in my opinion either. Tom Lee: with ⁓ lying dear in an internal affairs investigation and ⁓ I just so ha happened to move past that and was able to get a job and now I've I'm like eighteen years past that or sixteen years whatever it is and ⁓ I'm doing pretty good for myself. ⁓ so it and I tell people all the time A lot of times it's not the stuff out on the streets that really get to you. It's the stuff that goes on behind the scenes with the administration that gets to you more than anything. 'Cause the administration just ⁓ I don't know, they they've lost lost their ability to see what's actually going on or they have different ideas about how things should be done. And if you're not following their their guidelines, whether you can or not, some of these things you have no choice in. And They just sack you just for making a split second decision when things have been going good. I mean you you have outs you outstanding performances, but in the end because you're drawing too much attention to yourself, they want to get rid of you. Chris Stockton: Yeah, it goes back to the whole I've I've always been told my whole career stay low. And I actually worked for an agency before I went offshore. ⁓ didn't mean to burn bridges like I did. Was accidental. ⁓ but actually asked my supervisor on, hey, you know, should I take this job and go part time here or stay here and not even worry about that? He's like, ⁓ I would take that. Alright, cool. Well, lo and behold, I wound up losing my job because of it, but you know Tom Lee: Mm. Yeah, I mean and and sometimes it's unbeknownst to you. You don't know that you're stepping on toes or whatnot and just the admin just wants to to crucify you for the For whatever it is. Chris Stockton: Just the bullshit really. Tom Lee: Yeah. And that that is that's probably the biggest issue. I mean that and ⁓ a lot of the admin get placed in that because of ⁓ the good old boy system versus whether they're actually qualified. And if you're a qualified on the street doesn't mean that you're qualified for a leadership position. ⁓ you can be you can be a great officer on the street. Chris Stockton: It's good point, actually. ⁓ Tom Lee: and not be able to take and walk a dog around the block. Chris Stockton: Yeah, that's very true. Never thought of it that way. And that makes a lot of sense. And that actually kind of you know, makes us in the end guard ourselves more against the administration, ⁓ because we notice that. And i in my experience, I've I've always steered away from administration after a few incidences with them because I'm not going to try to step on toes anymore. Even if it's accidental, like you said. It it's it's always, I'm gonna keep my head low, I'm gonna keep the hell out of here. Leave me alone. I'm going home. Tom Lee: That's that's like what they they used to laugh at me at the sheriff's office when I was on patrol because I'd show up in the morning, do my paperwork at between seven, seven thirty when all the admin was rolling in, I got my car and I left. And you didn't see me showing back up to the sheriff's office unless I was called up there for a call or what not until admin was headed out the door. And I mean I Chris Stockton: Perfect way of thinking. Tom Lee: I didn't garner myself any favors that way because if you're if you're not Chris Stockton: You're not seen, you're not heard. Tom Lee: Yeah, you you're you're just out there doing whatever ⁓ promotional opportunities and whatnot. If you're not depending on the agency you work with, there are some agencies that are are all promote you just based on a test and that's not good either. ⁓ Chris Stockton: Yeah, I know you're right on that one. ⁓ so and you know, as you said earlier, you're now a mental health deputy. ⁓ one thing you wrote on your forum was simple, but it hit pretty hard is you said we almost want to all help, but we don't know how because no one tells you they're struggling. Th that's real, you know, w we're trained in the end to read the scenes, we're trained to read body language, and we're trained to catch the threats, the risks, the dangers. ⁓ But the pain the pain hides well. You know, cops hide it, medics hide it, firefighters hide it, hell dispatchers hide it quite well. ⁓ nurses hide it. Our families hide it. The public's hide it. And when someone finally breaks down and everyone says, We didn't know, i you know, we didn't know. Sometimes because the person never had a safe place to say it. I it's also because of like we just said, administration. Who wants to admit that they're having a problem when they're going to be punished or fired or suspended or anything? You know, ⁓ so on that note, you know, what has mental health work taught you about hidden struggles and and how to ⁓ articulate them better? Tom Lee: Well, I mean, it all comes with trust. People's gotta be able to trust you to do what you do. I I I know I ran on a certain firefighter who told me he was good and the next day it was either that night or the next day I got a phone call from him saying, Hey, I need you to come get me. I just tried to hang myself. and the rope broke and now the cops are coming to my house and whatnot and he he actually ran off in the woods and wouldn't come out and the sheriff's office was fixing to leave him because he was there by himself and I it's it's some ⁓ when you're there by yourself and no threat to other people but yourself and you Chris Stockton: Attempted Tom Lee: But you're you're a threat to officers if they come towards you. ⁓ it's easier to just leave you alone than then put your s put all the officers and everybody in a situation that may ⁓ turn bad. ⁓ so after a while with patrol being there, I called and said, Man, let me I've got his phone number. Let me talk to him. ⁓ he called me and I sit there and talked. Chris Stockton: Gotcha. Tom Lee: with him for fifteen, twenty minutes, reassured him I wasn't gonna put ⁓ in ha handcuffs, but I did have to take him to the hospital. ⁓ he finally came out and got in the back seat of my car and I I drove him to the hospital. But he swore to me earlier that day or the day before that he wasn't suicidal. Chris Stockton: Damn. How about that one hit R too? Tom Lee: So I mean it's just one of those things that Sometimes you have no clue until it's too late. And luckily for him, it wasn't too late. I I actually saw him b earlier this year and he walked up and he was like, Man, you taking me to the hospital that day was probably the best thing you've done or that's happened to me in my life. So and so that happened like five, six years ago and Chris Stockton: That's awesome. Yes. Tom Lee: It's still ⁓ I still see him out everywhere. He he's no longer with the fire department or anything, but Chris Stockton: Yeah, that's awesome. I mean, you know, that that kind of r has me have a little bit of flashbacks because I had a gentleman offshore, who I spoke to the day we got on board. he said he wasn't feeling good. So I let him stomal and then we wound up ⁓ going two or three days. He kept saying he didn't feel good, didn't feel good, didn't feel good. So I'm thinking, okay, seasickness, you know, 'cause we're on the ro we're on rigs and boats and like, all right, we'll do seasick. Well, I'll go seasick treatment and did this whole treatment with him and I think it was the fourth day. went to the morning meeting, asked if anyone's seen him, anyone talked to They're ⁓ yeah, we talked to last night. All right, he's supposed to be in the meeting with us. Where the hell's he at? What's going on? Something felt off. So of course I go check and He hung himself in the room. Like you said, no one had any signs. You know, we found up later finding a few bottles of alcohol in the room that isn't supposed to be on board and ⁓ you know, no one none of his best friends on board even knew. And that's like you said, it it it it it is a hide it is a hidden struggle that some people just know how to hide. Tom Lee: ⁓ yeah. I and it happens to everybody. I mean it it's not just the first responder community that it happens to, just first responders Chris Stockton: ⁓ yeah. Tom Lee: are probably less likely to seek help. over anybody else 'cause I mean, you know if you say the wrong word, somebody's gonna put you in the hospital. I mean, it's it's gonna happen against your will. And then there's people feel like there's a shame in it and and there's not, ⁓ but that doesn't change other people's minds. ⁓ and it I I tell people all the time that Chris Stockton: ⁓ yeah. Tom Lee: 'Cause we we have three basic questions we ask just about everybody we come in contact. Are you ⁓ thinking about harming or killing yourself? Are you thinking about killing other people? Are you seeing or hearing things that maybe I don't see or hear? ⁓ if you answer no to you've never thought about hurting yourself or hurt or killing yourself. I'm pretty much gonna say, Hey, you're not telling me the truth 'cause almost everybody at some point in time has even if it's a fleeting thought, has made that thought. So Chris Stockton: Yeah, it's just a in a lot of us ⁓ dive towards that thought and that's a of course bad. ⁓ try to figure out a better way to say it. Tom Lee: Of course the a alcohol just makes it worse because it's a depressant and I mean you may feel better for for a little while, but then it sends you down a deep dark hole that you may not come back from. Chris Stockton: Yes, sir. So what made you delve into the mental health law enforcement work? Tom Lee: So when I got hired by the University Police Department that's down in Beaumont, they actually were looking to peep to send people to mental health peace officer class. And I was one of two officers that they volunteered that you had to go to these class. ⁓ I wasn't against it, but I it wasn't really something I was looking for. And then several years later, after going to that class, the ⁓ sheriff's office decided that they were gonna s get involved in this task force that was a mental health task force and I just happened to be the only person that was certified in the sheriff's office, so they offered it to me. Chris Stockton: That's awesome. Tom Lee: And maybe the sheriff had some other reasons for doing it. I don't know. I wasn't privy to any of that. He just called me one day and said, Hey, we've got this. Are you interested? And I've been there for seven years now. Chris Stockton: That's awesome. You know, ⁓ and I'm sure there's a bunch of misunderstandings about the mental health calls you get. what's one of the biggest ones that people misunderstand about those? Tom Lee: Well, so people think that just because they're hearing or seeing things that you need to be hospitalized. and it's not a it's not a crime to be hearing or seeing things. ⁓ it the only time that we hospitalize you is if you're doing something in such an extreme way that you're endangering yourself or somebody else. So ⁓ if you don't meet those criteria, just because you believe your neighbor is working for the CIA and bugging your house, doesn't mean that I get to take you to the hospital for it. And that that's probably a big mis ⁓ perception that people have. I I don't know how many times I go out, I was like, yeah, I think they have a mental illness. No, I can't do anything about it. The law doesn't allow me to just force the person against the will to get treatment. It's like if you have cancer, I can't tell you you're gonna take chemo or radiation. I that's a choice you get to make. Chris Stockton: True. I I kinda want to hear more about the CIA call, but anyway. Did they have foil? Tom Lee: That's a it's it's a pretty standard call that we get actually all the time is people think that they're ⁓ they're getting either they work for the CIA or the FBI and they're getting followed or whatnot. ⁓ a lot of paranoia or ⁓ other people in the community are bugging the houses or they Chris Stockton: Really? Tom Lee: I have lots of stories that sort of like that. Chris Stockton: ⁓ sure. Do any of them involve foil hats though? That's my question. Tom Lee: Let's see. I there there's one that I know of that kinda does. We we told back before I was in lawn or before I was in mental health, ⁓ there's actually another deputy told this woman that if you 'cause she thought her phone was hacked, her cell phones, and she had gone through like twenty or thirty of ⁓ So one of the deputies happened to tell her, ⁓ you know, ⁓ a microwave's a a safe place for your phone. They can't so she she would throw her phones in the microwave. Chris Stockton: That's funny or sad on the deputy's part, but anyway. ⁓ Lord. So what has this work taught you about listening in the end, you know, to people? I I know it's probably taught you a lot, but Tom Lee: ⁓ well that's that's the biggest key is is listening versus just having a conversation or hearing yourself talk. ⁓ you do less talking, you let them talk. Chris Stockton: So on that note, like say for the EMS side of things, if we go around on a mental health call, do you think it would help it would behoove us to let them talk more instead of us trying to talk over them? Tom Lee: Yeah, but we we all find ourselves in that situation where we have standard questions we want answered. ⁓ are you oriented? ⁓ and that people go tell you their life stories if you spend just a little bit long longer time just listening to that instead of trying to get your questions that you have to have answered answered. ⁓ things seem to go better for you. Chris Stockton: Yeah, true. I've actually had a ⁓ psych patient before that like you said, I I just let ⁓ talk and in the end I think that was more beneficial for them than the medicine. Tom Lee: I mean sometimes it it'll even work on regular patients. They want to be heard. ⁓ I mean how many times you go to your doctor and ⁓ they come in, what's the problem? Okay, here's your script and you see ⁓ for like five minutes. That's that's pretty standard. Whereas if you have a doctor that actually sits down and talks to you and wants to know what's going on in your life, where and has that bedside manner ⁓ about them. Chris Stockton: Sure. Tom Lee: Where they're actually feel like you feel like you're they're interested in you and not just in treating your your problem for the time. Chris Stockton: That are like my doctor always does. I'm gonna type at my laptop while you talk. No, that's not no, don't do that. Stop that. Tom Lee: Yeah, I just happened my doctor, he ⁓ actually was a cop. ⁓ he's he's a actually a nurse practitioner, not a not a full ⁓ D, but but ⁓ yeah, we come in and he's he asks me about what's going on in the county. We we talk about a bunch of stuff that's has absolutely no bearing on Chris Stockton: ⁓ wow. Right. Close enough. Tom Lee: Why I came to see him. Chris Stockton: But it builds that trust and it builds that camaraderie between you and your doctor and and that that is a big thing. even as you're talking about doing your job, you know, being able to bullshit with the people you run on or or just talk to them about everyday, you know, everyday happenings. That creates that bond that lets them know, hey, look, I'm not here to hurt you, I'm here to help you. Tom Lee: Yes. Yeah, we're we're all people. So I mean I and I know those three o'clock phone or those three o'clock alarm bells when you're waking up and and responding to those calls and you just wanna go back to sleep and throw somebody in the back of the ambulance as fast as possible and r get ⁓ to the hospital so you can go get back in bed because Chris Stockton: Right. Tom Lee: next shift comes in at six or seven o'clock in the morning and you're only gonna get thirty or forty minutes of sleep. I mean, i if you just spend a little bit of extra time and talk to ⁓ and and treat ⁓ like humans, ⁓ and that it doesn't matter if your wife, if it's your friends, it it's that's part of ⁓ just communicating in life in general. Chris Stockton: No matter who it is. Tom Lee: ⁓ stop being so involved about you and and and let them have some time. Chris Stockton: Right there. That right there. That's that's got that's gotta be the biggest that's gotta be the best thing someone's said on this show is let them be them pretty much. Let them like you just said, we're all humans. We all need to have decency, we all need to have humanity. And the fact that a lot of us get so jaded or or cold, I should say to others i is ridiculous. Like you said, the three o'clock A three AM calls. I I've had my share of ⁓ on well I'll I'll say I'm guilty of it. You know, I've thrown ⁓ in the back. ⁓ I just want to go back to bed. I'm not gonna listen to you. But those ones yo, yeah, I know. But those ones that I have had that I'm like, all right, cool, it's gonna be three o'clock in the morning. I won't be back till six. We crew change at seven. Screw it. Let me hear your story. Tom Lee: Well that's all of us. Chris Stockton: Those were the best calls I've ever ran, in all honesty. And some of them were BS calls. Some of them were really good calls, gunshot wounds or stabbings, but them talking helped the treatment exponentially. Tom Lee: Yes, there's there's something ⁓ in the human psyche that if you just talk it out, you you do better than a lot of medicine will do. Chris Stockton: Very true. So on your forum you mentioned child involved calls, people in crisis, ⁓ helping people who have done horrible things. ⁓ of course we're not gonna go into graphic details that that you don't want to. We're not gonna name names, ⁓ we're not gonna name agencies ⁓ or anything identifiable. ⁓ but I would like to talk about ⁓ the person who's responded to these calls ⁓ because of how it changes us. You know, it changes how we see people, it changes how you see your own faith, the change how you look at your own family when you get home. How it makes you angry, how it makes you numb, like I just said, ⁓ and and it makes you question things that you thought were solid, ⁓ and then somehow you still have to go back in service. what kind of calls left that deep mark on you? Tom Lee: ⁓ so real recently, about about a year ago and and there are names in my book and an and I didn't name them unless ⁓ they had been convicted of a crime. ⁓ other details I changed various aspects of it to ⁓ hide their identity. So ⁓ Chris Stockton: Right. Tom Lee: there is that but I mean I've I've had a eight year old person that ⁓ attempted to kill their parents by poisoning their parents and their adopted parents ⁓ and actually ⁓ elicited the help of a sibling in doing so. I've I've been talking on the phone for to other people Chris Stockton: Wow. Okay. Tom Lee: for over an hour with a gun to their head and they finally shot themselves while I was talking to ⁓ I've sh I've knocked on the front front door to people's house and as soon as I knocked, they've shot and killed themselves. ⁓ I've taken I had one guy that he was a he's now a convicted child molester, ⁓ continuous child molester. Chris Stockton: Bam. Bienvenue. Tom Lee: ⁓ he's in jail for the rest of his life. But before he was sentenced, he or and there was no that we were waiting for the grand jury to return a indictment for him. He was out on the streets and he just so happened to ⁓ have a mental health diagnosis and I took him every month to get a shot that he required to ⁓ stay stable. So I mean there there's a lot of stuff that people just don't know that we're doing. Chris Stockton: Right. So on that as you said that you know the the sex abuser, ⁓ I know a lot of medics, I know a lot of firefighters, I know lot of cops that try to not see them as people. They see them as God knows what. my personal place is I'm gonna treat anybody the way I can treat them. I don't care what you've done, I don't care about your past, I don't care about anything. You're who I treat you as. Is that your same feeling on that as well? Tom Lee: Yeah, like I said, we're all people. I mean, we we've we've all done something that wasn't kosher in law. I mean, we may not all be child molesters, but ⁓ I I guarantee you that you've done something to break the law. ⁓ I know and me too. I mean I I love driving ten miles an hour over the speed limit everywhere I go. I mean it's it's not the same as as Chris Stockton: Right. Right. ⁓ I know I have. Tom Lee: raping a little kid, but it's still you're still breaking the law. I mean we we all break the law, ⁓ for so Chris Stockton: Well my my thing on that too is we're not the judge, we're not the jury. We are the ones that are there when they're in need. ⁓ i and yes, they could be spending the year the rest of their lives in prison, they could be put it to death. But that's not our call. That's not our relation to them. Tom Lee: No so so th the this child molester that we're talking about, I actually started working f with him prior to even knowing anything about the child ab abuse allegations and I was getting him help prior to that. And then one day I walked in through the sheriff's office and one of the detectives came to me and said, Hey, we need you over here. One guy just said that he ⁓ Chris Stockton: ⁓ wow. Tom Lee: was molesting this child and now that he's confessed to it, he's saying that he wants to kill himself. ⁓ I open the door and it just happens to be this guy. I was like, ⁓ it's you. Like, man, you know, you saying this stuff, I I have a duty to take you to the hospital. I've I've gotta do it. And he's like, Yeah I know. Let's go. So Chris Stockton: They are. Right. Tom Lee: I loaded him up, took him to the hospital, ⁓ while walking out 'cause I don't I rarely handcuff people, ⁓ not unless they have to be. And o on my way walking out to the car with him, he was like, Hey, would you ⁓ go ahead and handcuff me because I'm thinking about fighting with you and taking your gun and then killing myself with your gun. I'm like, yeah. I'll go ahead and and Chris Stockton: Right. Wow. Yeah, let's do this. Tom Lee: Restrain ya so that you don't take my gun. I get him to the hospital. Of course I s like I said, I I followed up with him. ⁓ one of the city PDs was also working a child abuse case on him. ⁓ they arranged with me, or through me for him to come and and confess to them about him molesting another kid. ⁓ so I I took him to that appointment. He wouldn't let me sit in the in interview and and ⁓ hear what he had done. But Of course I I I knew what was going on and afterwards I took him back home and and whatnot and talked to him. I was like, last time you confessed you were suicidal, are you still suicidal? He was like, No, I'm doing good today. Okay. Well you got my number if you need need to call me or whatnot. And I was like, You know you've confessed to these things. You know at some point in time there's gonna be a warrant for your arrest. You want me to let the patrol guys come and get you or do you want me to arrest ya? And he goes, When it's time, you come and get me. So So one day I showed up on his door, knocked on the door, said, Man, I this is the day you've dreaded. The the warrant's out. And he's like, Okay, I'm ready. And I I Chris Stockton: ⁓ wow. Tom Lee: rarely take people to jail now, but th those are some of the circumstances that I take people to jail now for. Chris Stockton: So this is a g interesting question just popped in head. On that, i is and I I mean I I could be reading this wrong, but is any of that protected between the healthcare side and the law enforcement side? Or does it have to merge? Tom Lee: Take the how, you talk about HIPAA violations or Chris Stockton: Yeah, kinda like yeah, in a way. Tom Lee: Well, I mean yes and no. I mean I'm not really telling you what his diagnosis is or what medication he was taking, just that he was Chris Stockton: No no no. I was talking about like on like say y you're you're still acting under the sheriff's department as a mental health officer. So if you're if you're treating this mental health guy, ⁓ and then all of a sudden he is convicted, can they bring your mental health visits into his ⁓ trial or anything? Tom Lee: Well, they'd have to ⁓ so we're with ⁓ the local mental health authority here. ⁓ so so I do notes over there and they can susp subpoena the records just like anything else. ⁓ so yes, it some of it's HIPAA protected and some of it's not. I mean it just anything law enforcement related that I do is not HIPAA protected. Chris Stockton: Okay. I gotcha. So so it is it is kind of hippop protected in the end. I gotcha. Tom Lee: Anything medical that I do is HIPAA related. Chris Stockton: Right, I gotcha. So, you know, you also mentioned earlier ⁓ getting fired from an agency. and I really appreciate the hell of that 'cause a lot of people wouldn't tell me that or they would just leave the damn thing out. ⁓ but that's not the far that's not the part folks usually lead with. ⁓ everybody wants to know about the errors that we get that we have, ⁓ the saves, the big crazy calls and the moments that we all look strong. but That getting fired, that that hits in identity, especially in the field we work in, you know. ⁓ 'cause a lot of people in the job, it becomes a name tag on their soul. ⁓ we live it, we breathe it, we sleep it. ⁓ and then when that gets taken, questioned, or damaged, it can feel like you didn't just lose a job, it lost who you were and your whole ⁓ being in the end. ⁓ so What kind of effect did that have on your mental health in the end on that part as well? Tom Lee: ⁓ I I was pretty depressed at the time. I was in my twenties, so ⁓ drinking was a big thing and I ⁓ used the bottle to get over it, ⁓ which I would not suggest to anybody going down that road. But In your twenties, that's pretty much how you handle things. ⁓ not only that, is I had one of my field training officers during the same period of time. Actually I was playing golf with him the day that I was fired from where I got called into the office and the whole firing started. I was playing golf with him, and he ended up killing himself during this whole time too. So he committed s suicide while this whole thing was going on. And ⁓ man I I probably laid in my room and did nothing but go out and and drink, ⁓ for a good month or more. ⁓ so Chris Stockton: ⁓ damn. Sorry hear that. So did that one? No, I got the did that help you now, ⁓ be able to help in your field that you work now? Did did your whole, you know, history help build you into the officer you are today? Tom Lee: ⁓ I I very much so 'cause I mean everything that you do takes an and guides you one way or the other. I mean if you so so all of that I mean if I wouldn't have gone through it myself, I hadn't drank tons of alcohol and why would I be here to tell you you shouldn't do that? Chris Stockton: Right. Good point. Tom Lee: ⁓ I'm telling you f as somebody that has done this, that that's not the right way to go. ⁓ Words. If I and I lost my train of thought there, so sorry about that. Chris Stockton: I I I have a feeling where you're going with that. ⁓ I'm if correct me if I'm wrong, but if where you're going with that is i is since you've lived it, you can actually preach on it. You're not an outsider looking in on somebody else that's not seen it or dealt with it. Tom Lee: Yeah, that's so I mean if if you've never experienced it, how can you tell somebody? That's the same thing with like licensed drug dependency counselors. The best licensed drug dependency counselors that are out there are ones that were addicted to drugs beforehand. I've never been addicted to any drugs. Chris Stockton: Right. Tom Lee: I wouldn't be able to tell you what that was like. The the alcohol that I drank, I I wasn't dependent on it. I was able to to just have it I mean, I drank till I was blackout drunk when I drank, but but I didn't do it every night. ⁓ it wasn't Chris Stockton: You weren't you weren't you weren't addicted to it. You d you depended on it but were not addicted to it. Tom Lee: Yeah. Yeah. I mean I did it to just numb out and go away. I w wasn't doing it to to it's my daily life and I have to have it to to function. So I can't tell you what that's like. I wouldn't be the best counselor for that. I can tell you it's not good to do that, but I don't have any life experience in it. Chris Stockton: Right, I gotcha. So back to your book real quick too. ⁓ sorry I'm going back and forth so much, but my mind just goes, Wee, it's like a little pinball machine. I'm typing as we're speaking and I'm coming up questions. ⁓ so your book is called Scars of the Badge, Faith, Trauma and Redemption behind the thin blue line. ⁓ the title is a lot, that carries a lot. Mainly, you know, the faith, the trauma, the redemption, the badge, the scars. Tom Lee: It's all good. Chris Stockton: None of those words belong to a clean story. ⁓ they belong to a very well lived one. They belong to a man of faith. ⁓ you also wrote that you're a Christian and you're a member of the Gideons. If I mispronounce that, I'm sorry. ⁓ so I want to talk about faith, but not in a fake polished way that a bunch of these preachers do. So, you know, I am a very firm believer that everything happens for a reason. ⁓ not as sure about you on that one. But what did your faith ⁓ give you when the job, the trauma and the f and all this got so heavy that you did have to go back to alcohol? Tom Lee: Well, so I mean I I've always been in the Christian world. My ⁓ I went to high school at a Christian co or a Christian high school, ⁓ Chris Stockton: Well that's cool. Tom Lee: But I I there was many years there that I didn't live it. ⁓ you wouldn't know me from from the atheist walking down the street. I mean I still believe what I believed, but I wasn't walking that line. I wasn't doing anything that would ⁓ give somebody from the outside looking in a reason to say that that's a Christian right there. ⁓ So I I've lived that life and I know that when I'm going to church and and reading the Bible daily and and talking to God through prayer, that things just go but always have gone better for me during those periods of times in my life. than when I was doing all the worldly stuff, the the drinking, the going out to to bars and doing all the stuff that most of the world does, that's typically when I have my worst times in my life. Chris Stockton: Gotcha. You know, and a lot of I'm gonna just say the way that it came in my head, a lot of the people that I know that are better providers, better police officers, EMS, fire, ⁓ they depend on their faith so much that it helps them become better at what they're doing. They become better people. It doesn't matter what your faith is to me, I don't care. ⁓ in all honesty, as long as you believe in what you believe in and you live by what you believe. You know, that's how I feel. and as you said a minute ago, i is your faith keeps you grounded. ⁓ it it'll keep you from going it back to alcohol. It it's they don't Tom Lee: Mm-hmm. Chris Stockton: They don't call God a savior for nothing. You know, you are saved for a reason. Tom Lee: ⁓ I mean in in some of the s talks that we we had at the beginning of the show, ⁓ y everybody's human. We we all have have our own faults. We we there's not a single one of us that lives a perfect life. ⁓ Jesus was the only person that that has done that. In at least in my ⁓ Chris Stockton: Very true. Right. Tom Lee: assumption of or my f take on what has happened. and Chris Stockton: Your brother. Right. And that makes and that's again, that's the Christian beliefs. And as I stated a minute ago, there's nothing wrong with that. I I I was from a Christian family, so I understand a hundred percent on that. And I don't try to judge any other religions, for instance. I'm not gonna name all of them 'cause there's so many. But, you know, Buddha or Islam or anything. I've not i it I think in the end, as long as you have faith, that's all that matters. ⁓ And that kind of brings me to this next part that you wrote as well as ⁓ on the bottom of my form I have what do you want people to take away from this episode? And you wrote peace can be found. That's simple. ⁓ it it it's but coming from someone with your background, it's not soft. It it it's it's earned, you know. ⁓ peace means something different after twenty four years of the cause you've ran. It's not pretending nothing's happened. It's not forgetting. It's not being untouched. It's not walking away without scars. peace is being able to tell the truth without owning it, or it owning you. peace is knowing your failures didn't get the final vote. ⁓ sometimes peace is faith with dirt under its fingernails, and that's a hundred percent right there. Just as we were just saying. You know, ⁓ so now What what is peace like for you as of today? Tom Lee: And I I'm here to tell people my story and what I've gone through, what but I mean it it comes back to my faith and if you read the Bible at all, there there's a certain peace that comes that surpasses all understanding. ⁓ I can't tell you how that's gonna w look for you and and whatnot, but and I've I've I've been shot. I've seen so many people die. ⁓ in my title there at the sheriff's office when I was on patrol was Deputy Death because they dispatched me to all the death calls ⁓ when I was on. I I've ran I I can't tell you how many death scenes I've worked. ⁓ you you can get a copy of my book and see some of that. ⁓ little shameless plug there. But but anyway, I mean through all that Chris Stockton: ⁓ damn. Next sir, that's next. Tom Lee: I mean and the fact that I've never or I haven't always walked that that solid line that leads the the the ⁓ ho holier than thou Christian that you think. Man, I I'm a human just like everybody else. I mess up all the time. My my story tells you I I started out the story telling ya about me getting fired for lying. I mean I wasn't perfect perfect in any of that. ⁓ Chris Stockton: That all hole all holder than the all crap. I hate that with people. I really do. We're all human. We all screw up. And like you said, there's no there's no Tom Lee: I mean why would I need a savior if I wasn't messed up to begin with? Chris Stockton: I've never thought of it that way. Tom Lee: So I mean y you have to understand that that we are all under the same pretenses. We all have the same flaws. We're we're all human. Chris Stockton: Right. Tom Lee: And the only way I can turn away from that is through Jesus Christ. Chris Stockton: Very true. And as I said a minute ago, you know, everybody has their own their own faith, their own humanity in the end. And think that's what makes us human. You know, we depend on each other, we help each other, we we can help teach each other you know, the the scriptures, if you will, if all else fails. ⁓ if that's what helps calm someone down. And I'm sure you've done it recently, if I'm not mistaken, you've probably done that a few times with some of your mental health patients. You know, and and that Again, I've noticed it myself. I I'm I'm not a very big religious man, but it does help some of the patients just to help to speak to them, you know, read a Bible verse with them, start talking to ⁓ It it makes a huge difference. You know. and sorry, I was going on. But I I just I'm gonna start ending it here in a second. ⁓ I wanna I want you to just picture someone listening to this alone. ⁓ maybe their deputy sitting in the patrol car after a bad call. Maybe they're dispatcher sitting with a quiet radio after the chaos. Maybe they're a medic, a firefighter, cop, crash an officer, nurse, or responder who is just numb and can't explain why. Been there done that one. maybe they're known for one dramatic story, but the real damage is years of everything else. ⁓ maybe they have the faith but still feel broken. maybe they've got fire fired, failed publicly, made mistakes, or lost who they thought they were. Maybe they're the peace that they think they need for other people. ⁓ if that's the person listening to to this now, after every event, after event, what do they need to hear from you? Tom Lee: Well, I mean you're not defined by one incident or multiple incidents. I mean I I have a I mean I I wasn't able to write a book and have fifty chapters in that book if I didn't have lots and lots and lots of things that have happened over my time. ⁓ it we we all deal with a bunch of stuff. And I don't I don't care if you you're my neighbor next door that's never been in law enforcement before, you still have your stuff that you're going through too. We we're all going through life. And life is hard. And you making it worse on yourself by by drinking and put a gun to your head is gonna take and hurt more the people around you than it is gonna be making the pain go away for you. I mean it is gonna make the pain go away for you for whatever time It's there or you're gonna live through it 'cause I know several people that have shot themselves and le lived. ⁓ Chris Stockton: Might love worse. Tom Lee: And you have to deal with the with all that, but seeing the the mean mental anguish of the your friends and family. is so much worse for them. And it's one of the if if you had a friend or family member commit suicide, it's one of the biggest red flags that you'll possibly do it. also. So I mean If you're if you're thinking that way, you need to reach out to somebody, whether you call nine eight eight or you call copline or ⁓ there's a couple other first responder ones for for EMS and for fire. ⁓ you call one of those instead of nine eight eight or or you reach out to a buddy and talk to them. It's better than you sitting at home alone drinking yourself to death in that bottle of alcohol and then ⁓ putting that gun to your head. ⁓ 'cause that's no way to be and and you're gonna leave a mess for your family and friends and and leave them in a dark hole. Chris Stockton: Very true. And and one of my preceptors put it to me, best way I've ever thought about it, ⁓ on that is pain is only temporary. Death is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Tom Lee: Yep. I I've used that several times. Don't don't do a permanent solution f to a temporary problem. Chris Stockton: Then that's that's the damn truth. It really is. I and as you said, I've had bodies commit suicide, I've had family members commit suicide. ⁓ i it's it's harder on the people around them than others realize. and it sucks all the way around. ⁓ So ⁓ now onto this note, ⁓ back to your book. So if people wanna hear hear this so if people wanna if people hear this and want to follow your work or connect with you or even just find the book, Scars of the Badge, Faith, Trauma, and Redemption Behind the Thin Blue Line, where can they go? What could they do? Tom Lee: Ha ha ha. You can go to my website, ⁓ scars of the badge dot com ⁓ and follow there. Or anywhere that books sold, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Books a Million, you're probably not gonna be able to find it on the shelf when you walk in, but they'll be able to order it for you and get you a copy. So Chris Stockton: Sweet. And if i someone hears this today or tonight and realizes they need help before the next call stacks on top, what's the first step you want them to take? Tom Lee: Well, reach out to people. They're w whether it's your friends, your family, whoever people are in your life, reach out and and tell people. I that's the biggest thing is we're we all like to shut in and not tell anybody, but if you ⁓ reach out and talk to people, ⁓ the it makes things so much better. The stories we were talking about earlier. I mean, talking is basically what counseling is. So you you go with your buddies and talk it around a campfire or something, that can be as much therapy as going and sitting in a counselor's office and and talking to ⁓ But but you're gonna have to be real and be honest about what's going on. Chris Stockton: ⁓ yeah. That's the biggest thing. Open up. Talk. And you know, that that's that's the biggest, hardest thing for some of us is to swallow that pride and be able to talk about it. Tom Lee: Well, I I still have problems myself doing that. So I'm preaching to me just as much as I'm preaching to anybody out there. Chris Stockton: ⁓ yeah. Same. And and as you said, just going around a campfire or talking to friends or hell, starting a podcast out of nowhere like I did. ⁓ it i it it helps. You know, this is we all have things that help us. Help My Podcast helps me. Working with my hands, doing something. You have to find outlets. You can't let it eat you alive. Tom Lee: Ha ha. Chris Stockton: ⁓ as I always say, you know, the world is not a better place without you. You're here for a reason. Find that reason. Do that reason. You know, this has been Dispatch Dysfunctional today. ⁓ huge thanks to Sergeant Tom Lee for coming on, talking about the story that he's that everyone asked about and more importantly, the stories behind everything. Tom Lee: Yes, sir. Chris Stockton: I I just wanna thank you for being here, taught telling your story, giving us your information and and having such a great explanation on what people do in your line of work now that a lot of people don't realize. Tom Lee: Yes, sir.