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Building Healthier Digital Habits for Kids with Kate Doerksen · Building the Best You

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Building the Best You, a destination for you to reimagine what is possible in your life and then create it.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the show, everybody.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Gene Collins, and today we have Kate Dirksen on the show.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Guys, we're going to talk about something so important: children, the digital age, cyberbullying, mental health for children.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: We have never talked about this subject in depth on the show, and I am so excited to have Kate here to talk about it.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: She is the co-founder and CEO of a company called Sage Haven, and they have an app out that helps us protect our children.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, Kate, welcome to the show.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Gene.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: I am so excited to talk to you because we actually haven't dove into this subject in a deep level.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: We've talked about it a little bit, but not the way that you are proactively living in the space of protecting our children from the digital age.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's ironic.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: We are in the digital age.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: We are benefiting from all the benefits of the digital age.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: While we are recording this, you're in California.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in Connecticut.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: We are using technology, AI, all the things that have you and I connected and will also help us spread the word out about what we're talking about.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: However, for our young folk, this is a scary landscape.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I am actually fortunate that my daughter is now 20 years old because I think for people with younger kids right now, it is more terrifying than ever.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: Now, did you make it through without too many issues with your daughter?
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: I did, but only really only out of luck, I think.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a single mom.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so my daughter had access to a phone.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: She had access to an iPad.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: She didn't have any guardrails or gates on her device.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I also think she was terrified because I kind of put like the fear of your life's gonna end if I get on there and I see stuff I shouldn't see.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I told her, like, if you end up on a site that's not okay, if you come and tell me, then you won't get in trouble.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: But if you end up on that site and you don't tell me, then you're gonna get in trouble.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think she was just too afraid.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I do think it's I always like am excited when someone says they made it through without any big issues, but just the amount of parents and kids and we've talked to, it's like that's more the exception than the rule nowadays, unfortunately.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I have to say, I can't honestly say that I didn't feel like in high school that the environment that social media played on her role as a high schooler was very different than what I was prepared for.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the pressures of what happens to kids in high school and what's going on in social media and Snapchat, and I can't walk down that street, mom, because walking down that street, I can see on the map these kids that I don't want to interact with because they make me feel uncomfortable.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: So we have to walk like all the way around the block to get back to the car.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's happened too, which is crazy, you know?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's crazy.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: So let's before we totally dive into your company, your business, what you do, your mission, how in the world did you get into this space?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because you have a pretty interesting background and I would love to share it.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: So this is my third like venture back company, fourth company.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been starting companies for my whole career for the most part.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: This one, though, is so much more personal than the last businesses that I started.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think my last company, which was successful, I ran it for 10 and a half years.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: We had a successful exit.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: I started that business because I thought it was a good idea.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, this is smart, this needs to exist, but it wasn't as like heart forward as Sagehaven is.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: Candidly, while I was still running my last company, a family member was going through a really serious mental health crisis on the heels of a brutal, like late elementary all the way through middle school experience.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll speak a little bit non-specifically to protect some privacy, but it really opened up my eyes to what adolescence looks like.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I just kept asking myself the question in a family this good, how the heck does this happen?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like with parents disengaged and this, you know, and really I think I have so much empathy because a lot of that bullying started because they were not allowed to have a smartphone.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: They were not allowed access to social media, which I think a lot of people would say, that's great parenting.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: But if you don't move together, if parents don't sort of coordinate, it can be very tricky for the couple kids sort of left out of that transition.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I just remember really supporting this like a family member for a few years.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then I'm also a mom.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: I have a 10-year-old and a seven and a half year old.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: And this also became like what all of my mom friends were talking about.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: What are you doing?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: How are you doing this?
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: Are you gonna do the watch?
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: Are you, you know, like all these questions?
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I just one of my deep held entrepreneurial beliefs from doing this a few times is like timing is everything.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it was personal.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I just felt that groundswell in my own community.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, a lot is gonna change here because now the data on how sort of the cohort of kids that grew up with this technology, how did they fare?
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: Not well.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: If you look at all the statistics.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: Now the next generation of millennial moms are going, wait a second, I wanna be more careful about tech access.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: I want to slow this down a little bit.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: I want to, I'm more involved, I'm really engaged.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I just feel like that group of parents is gonna make new choices with new tools.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where I felt like, man, there's a lot of opportunity here as well to build a true, slow, safe on-ramp to the internet for kids.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: And there is.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think what's important is that you talk about the fact that you're not ignoring that the internet is there and that there is a need to to participate, you know?
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: And there's the reverse psychology of the bullying of, well, you're the only kid in fifth grade who doesn't have a phone.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then all of a sudden you're being bullied because you don't have that.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: And or they're on Snapchat talking and your kid isn't there and they're making plans.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, in my family member's case, it was like, well, they went to the movies and I didn't know they were going.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: And like all these things that, you know, I think a lot of parents go, Well I don't want you not to be invited to the movies, but I don't like everything else that comes with Snapchat.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't as a parent right now.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think too, like when we here's how I start companies.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like go in knowing exactly what it's going to be.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: I just at a very high level go, I'm really interested in this space.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: I can't stop thinking about it.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: I can't stop reading, watching movies, like watching documentaries, talking to experts.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm just really into this category.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then I always call it like hit the streets, but I knew I, for this business, I wanted to start it with my younger sister.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: For years, we had said, man, it would be fun to work together.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so we knew we wanted to work together.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I convinced her to kind of quit her job and go, hey, I think it's time.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what it is yet, but there's something really interesting happening at the intersection of kids' tech and mental health.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: And let's just start talking to a bunch of people and see where that leads us.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so she and I, Anne is her name, and she lives in Nashville and I'm in the Bay Area, but we just said, let's just start talking to our friends.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Let's ask them who else they know.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like let's kind of blossom from there.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then towards the end, we started getting sophisticated to go, okay, what kinds of parents have we not talked to?
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: So we, over the course of almost a year and a half, spoke to over 500 parents, kids covering pretty much every pocket of the United States, and honestly, even some in Europe.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then I went to Stanford for my MBA, which opens in a lot of doors.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: So then I was sort of knocking on who's building in this space?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: Let me talk to all these companies that are building these products.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I talked to a lot of my old classmates that work at those companies.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: We also were talking to the experts who were really doing the research.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: So research really started all over the world piling up from 2020 to 2023, linking the increase in anxiety, depression, suicide, failure to thrive, like all these studies to too much tech.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so started talking to people doing that research.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: And really what bubbled to the top there was a couple of things.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: One, it was a universal experience where parents needed some tech, but had a lot of fear about how that was kind of all or nothing.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I will say the lower socioeconomic pockets had this issue a little more.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned something that we call tech abstinence, but it's like, what if I just kind of say I don't want anything?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: What we found in our interviews was that, you know, in the wealthiest pockets of the country, you can pull that off because you don't have a gap in childcare.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: You're less likely to be divorced.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: You, you know, more stay-at-home parents that can drive kids around everything, which reduces the need to be able to talk to your kids outside the home.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: So in very elite pockets of the country, tech abstinence might happen.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: Although Anna and I joke, we went to Catholic school.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: We've never seen abstinence work for anything.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: And for the vast majority of the country, we really came to understand how families need some technology, especially like when we look at messaging, which we can go deeper on.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like they wanted to give kids more independence in the real world.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: They wanted their kid to walk home from school or go to a play date a little further away.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: They just wanted to be able to have the kid be able to contact them in case of emergency.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: Or in the case of a divorce, I need to be able to talk to my kid when they're at the other parent's house.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: So just, you know, and then there was a whole category, I would say, of like learning disabilities, health issues, where the phone is now a medical device in a bunch of cases.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just like we kind of learned more empathy than I started with in terms of why families introduce tech and how that's supporting a modern family in some really great ways.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: At the same time, over and over and over and over, we heard parents go, but here's the problem, you know, and and what we heard then ranged from my kid will not get off this device.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like he's in the group, fifth grade group chat, and this thing is popping off 500 messages on a Tuesday, and he's addicted to checking his iPad.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't even have a phone yet.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like all these bad habits are starting.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: We heard so many stories of bullying.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: Screens just, I don't know.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of think like it's 10 to 20 times worse than the bullying that we remember from our sort of middle school experience.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, mean girls in middle school, not a new concept, but behind screens, it looks really different.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: And we heard so many stories that have my jaw on the floor.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, just the aggressiveness of the language, the 24-7 persistence of it.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: There's no escaping it.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: And also tech, you know, you can nudify someone.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: You can do all these things that just really change the dynamic of who's seen that mean thing you said now that social media is engaged.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I think our our insights on cyberbullying it's just a lot more widespread than I ever could have thought.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then parents have pretty good parental controls at home, oftentimes.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: About 50 to 60% of parents have it kind of locked down at home, but it doesn't cover messaging.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: So iMessage and Google Message, which sort of dominate in those early years when kids are first starting to communicate with their parents and a few friends and the early group chats.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: Parents don't have any way to sort of like block and supervise.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: And there's no parental controls on messaging.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: So kids are seeing porn, they're seeing racist YouTube videos, they're seeing just stuff you don't want them to see too young.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it's sort of slipping through the cracks in these messaging platforms today.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: So all of that to us just looked like, wow, we understand why messaging exists early before social media and before smartphones.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: But the platforms that are using really are designed for kids in this age.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: So we just started thinking about what would it look like?
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: What do we want for our own family?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like what what does it look like in third grade, fourth grade, fifth grade, sixth grade?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: And how do we kind of create the right on-ramp?
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, which is fascinating because so I want to just touch on two things that you said.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: First thing that you said that I think is just so important for entrepreneurs and just even women and people, but especially women in general, that you started something and you had no idea where you were going with it.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so interesting that you say that because I actually just an hour ago recorded a video for Instagram about that same thing, about the fact that I think so many people, entrepreneurs, women, they're they don't see the path forward with building a business for themselves.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: So therefore they then don't do it.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I I see here and I talk to you, and I think like, wow, you've created this incredible business that now is like changing lives.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: And imagine if you didn't do it because you didn't see the end game.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: I have so many girlfriends who want to start something but can't quit their job.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes I, you know, there's different situations for that, but like they can't take that leap wherever they are until every detail of it is fine-tuned, you know.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: But you don't get to the fine-tuned piece, in my opinion, without going all in because it takes that much work to figure out what it is going to be.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like it takes the year of research.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, my sister was scared because she had a real job and I convinced her to quit without knowing what this was gonna be.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I just said, this is part of it.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, if you're gonna do this, if we're gonna do it together, and I only want to do this with you if we're both all in.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like I don't want to do a year and a half of work and then have you come in late.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like that doesn't feel good to me.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, if this is gonna be you and me, then this is what it looks like.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for her, this is her first sort of real venture that she's starting on her own.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: She had helped other entrepreneurs build businesses, but this was her first one.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so seeing it through her eyes is also, you know, I think very relatable for a lot of people doing this for the first time, which is like, are you serious?
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: I gotta quit my job and we don't even know what it's gonna be yet.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, yep, yep, that's what it is.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the old days were like, okay, you build the business plan and you show the ROI, and you know, you have all these pieces buttoned up, and then you go and you start the business.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you're just, I didn't want to move forward talking about the product without giving a moment to discuss how incredibly great that is and how important that is.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because if we think about, especially when it comes to technology, half the time, a year and a half ago, the way and the where technology is today, you couldn't have even imagined it a year and a half ago.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like you couldn't.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: And right now, where we are today with technology, we can't even imagine where it will be in a year and a half.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you wait to start until it exists, it's like you're late, you're missing it.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: Or if you go too slow, you're right.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's like then the problems compound because you weren't able to sort of get over the hump in time.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: And now you have a new issue, a new release of an iOS platform, a new feature that somebody launched, or a new capability.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I even for us, we're the only app that's interoperable with other apps.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, like if your kid is on Sagehaven, they can message with people on iMessage and Google Messages.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's relatively new tech that wasn't really in place.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Apple really had not adopted RCS rich communication services enabling this good, high-quality interop messaging until after we had started.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, in the original idea, we weren't thinking of it in that way.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: We were thinking, okay, everyone has to be on Sage Haven.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: How do we get everyone over to a new platform?
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: And candidly, that scared the daylights out of me because I'm like, that's so hard to get everybody to move, like totally your whole social graph, which isn't even just geographically located.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Even kids have cousins and grandmas, and grandma has to download a new app, we're dead.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, right.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I just felt like, you know, but again, that that evolved because we were already sort of in the trenches when a new feature emerged.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, which is really cool.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: So can you explain, explain what Sagehaven is so everybody understands how it works?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's a safe messaging and voice calling app for kids.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: And right now we've specifically designed it for their first few years.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: So pretty much all over the country, messaging starts between eight and twelve.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: And this is even for tech abstinent houses for the most part.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: In middle school, they'll have some way to message because it becomes so important for coordination with family.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: So even if that's from a computer or if it's from a laptop or excuse me, a tablet or a watch, even before phones, usually messaging is present.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: We are the only app where parents can supervise from their own phones after learning from our research that 70% of parents were grabbing their kids' device to spot check.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: So the intent was there, which is like, hey, I'm gonna check this.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: I want to make sure you're safe and you're talking to people I know.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: And but it was just another burden on moms a couple times a week to go grab devices and make sure they were checking and keeping an eye on this.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're the only app where parents can supervise.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: And we actually made that easy with AI alerts and recaps.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't have to dig through all their messages.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: And some parents want to give their kids more privacy, and that's fine.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: You can stay at a higher level, but this does let you go nice and slow because parents also approve all the contacts in a really nice sort of ask and approve system.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: So kids can say, I really want to talk to my friend Harper.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then the request is made.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then on my app, I can say, Okay, I approve you to talk to Harper.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: I can also do that with groups.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: So this is how you kind of slow them down where you enable messaging with your family, then you can add a couple close friends, then maybe it's the soccer team, but we can kind of slow down the all or nothing of who they're messaging, which we think is really important in the first few years.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it's parent supervised.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: We also AI moderate everything coming and going.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: So we we designed it to block the harmful messages before they're even sent, if it's coming from your kid.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: If it's coming from a kid not on Sage Haven, let's say it's someone on Google Messages and they're in a big group chat and somebody sends a link to, you know, an explicit adult website.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: We'll intercept it before your kid gets it and then give you some options of what you want to do.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want to get them out of that group chat?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want to have a talk with them about what just happened?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: But like we're getting parents involved early in these really serious cases when harmful stuff is flowing through.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it blocks harmful stuff.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then we also use the AI to nudge your kids towards kindness and best practices.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: Kids are learning.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: We need to teach them how to use this new medium, right?
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: And they're, I think oftentimes, and I have a 10-year-old, they're figuring out what's funny.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: They're figuring out how to say to a friend, really, what I'm trying to connect with you, but like I'm trying to do this, and how do I do this?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so let's say I, you know, a message gets sent from a kid that says, You suck at basketball.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's not serious enough to be full blocked, but what we would do is say, Hey, this looks like it might hurt their feelings.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: Are you sure you want to send this before it even gets sent?
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: And also, like they're not taught just etiquette.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, hey, you're talking one-on-one in front of a huge group.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: Click here and move this to a private conversation.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: I know many adults who need this.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like I do too.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like, let's teach them what good looks like.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: Let's be an ally for parents that's proactive, not just like policing after the fact and like caught them on something.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Let's like get involved as a whole family unit, as a team, and onboard them in a way that's nice, slow, safe.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: So we kind of say, like, keep them kind, keep them young, keep them safe.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: Let's slow that ramp down.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then when they are in middle school, maybe now they've been messaging with friends for a couple of years and you know they're ready.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: We will pair back off the full supervision around 12 and give parents some options, but like default off of that.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: So now I can still stay involved at a higher level.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: I still have that guardrail.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: The family member, you know, I I mentioned, I mean, you would not believe some of the messages that they received.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like those would have been caught before they even went through and prevented a lot of damage.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, a lot of times these things that are said are bells that can't be unrung.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's like, let's prevent that really bad stuff.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Or if my kid is talking about self-harming or anything in the like really let I need to know that immediately so I can sort of be a good parent and have the insights to do my job.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: So that could persist even as they age.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: So right now we've kind of designed it for those first few years, but we have all sorts of ideas of how to expand with the kid and give them more permissions and kind of again create the right on ramp.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: We don't want to create a bunch of helicopter parents of high schoolers.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: But we do want to have a slower, safer way to get there where the kids actually have the skills to be online.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: And to be able to self-police themselves.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I have so many questions.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: But first, you brought up a point that I would have never thought about, but I think is so cool, which is that they have not been taught how to communicate in this type of platform.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we forget as adults.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: I know I see this with my 20-year-old daughter, as she's started to have to write business emails and business text messages to people.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like I had to teach her, okay, sentences have punctuation.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: There's this thing called like I know you know about it in school, but you don't know about it on your phone because that's not how the children communicate.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: They communicate in these short little sentences that come over as 10 different texts even equal one sentence.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: And they understand how.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: To write for a school paper, but they don't understand how to write in this different format, this technology format.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so they don't know how to send a text message that starts to be more related to professional.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and all the nuances of interpersonal dynamics come out in that informal type of communication, which is messaging, not the formal business email or school paper.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, this is where life actually happens.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: This is where those friendships get rubbed or you feel really connected to someone.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's like these are the skills that, quite frankly, we're not teaching in school that have so much nuance that, quite frankly, I feel like parents are the most well equipped to help their kids sort of navigate some of those friendship dynamics, especially in the early years when they're learning, you know, I want to send something funny.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like what, you know?
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: And also like modern communication looks different.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like a lot of the kids told us we don't even like iMessage and Google Messages because it's boomer bubbles and millennial emojis, and none of that's good.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: None of that's good.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: I can't wait to get on Snapchat because then I can send, like, I want to connect with my friend, but I don't know what to say.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I can just send him a funny little snap.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and it's like through these kid interviews, we sort of realized why people are transitioning to Snapchat in middle school.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: They think the interface is more fun.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of an emoji, which is like a heart or a thumbs up, they want their own avatar doing that, which they felt like was so much more expressive and they can customize.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like we just again, we did our homework.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: We have a kid advisory panel.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: We've talked to hundreds of kids.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: We test every new feature on a bunch of kids.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: I love them.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: But they're telling us what they want and how they want to communicate.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's our job to create something that like kids love and parents trust.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't need to be mutually exclusive if we do our job right.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: So again, I think we're creating, you know, we have AR filter videos for the kids and fun ways that they can communicate with each other and customize the experience.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: So we just, you know, the internet can be amazing.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: It can be joyful and connecting.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: And we sort of lost track of that.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: We kind of lost the plot on like why we did this in the first place.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's like even social media, it's really just TV.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's just content other people are creating.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: We're it's not about connecting, but what would it look like if it was?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think like that's kind of what still gets my gears turning.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, I think messaging is really a beach head product for a lot of other things that we can expand to for, you know, would you trust your kid with an AI chatbot that exists today?
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: Heck no.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: But what would that look like?
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: What about the internet?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: Do we would you give your kid carte blanche access to the internet today?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely not.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: But what would that look like?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: What about social media?
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: Nope.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: But what would that look like?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I think we're really excited for, you know, messaging as a way to get started.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then how can we help parents really just go, finally, I have a tech company I can trust and a real ally?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: As I, you know, I I'm not anti-tech.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to do it in a way that is age appropriate and sort of teaches them a good, healthy way to use tech and exist in the real world.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: Where's that?
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: And not be not be scrutinized by by the guardrails that their parents are putting on them to try to keep them safe.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and again, I think it's we live in a world right now, and I think a lot of this is from social media, but it's so black and white.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's like it's tech absence, it's nothing for my kids, or I've totally given up and like it's whatever.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I just kind of joke is like, no, the right answer is almost always on that dial somewhere.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: And again, not every family is the same.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think where the dial is changes by kid, by your family values.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like, great.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: But like it's a dial, not a switch, baby.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I just feel like, you know, the the the way it's set up today doesn't have that nuance.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: And nuance is hard.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to storytell, you know, it requires engagement to like figure out where are we honing this for our family?
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: But we're gonna actually build like AI systems and moderation tools that are honed at a kid level.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: I might feel differently about what's blocked for my 13-year-old than I do for my eight-year-old.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: And we're gonna let you give us feedback that changes that over time.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: Also, some families care a lot about curse words, others don't.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, again, that's an example where it's like, I'm fine with this, or you know, I really don't want this, you know, really this is not appropriate for our values.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: And again, we're gonna let parents kind of hone what makes sense for their family and how can we do this in this nuanced, moderate, middle way.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: Which is super important because then you're allowing it to be more custom.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: And the more customized you can make it, the more personalized the experience becomes.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then you own it.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I just think the better it serves the needs of a lot more people.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: A hundred percent.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, right.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's not trying to take something that's square and stick it into something that's round and saying, well, this is just the best that's out there, the more you can customize it to fit your needs.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that's one of the things that AI is helping people see.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's that, you know, you can use AI to do it differently, better, faster, all of those things.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I am wondering, and you might not have an answer to this, but I'm curious.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: A while back you made the comment that the system will flag messages that come through that are potentially harmful for your children.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think about the amount of spam that I get from a messaging perspective every day, and it's outrageous.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: How often does that happen?
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how big of a problem is this?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, spam is a little bit different from harmful messages, but let's take spam first because right now, if you get your kid uh on iMessage, they're gonna get the same spam that you get on there, which is weirdly increasing.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, how is this not getting better?
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's getting worse.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: With Sage Haven, parents approve every single contact.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: So if an unknown number comes in, the kid never receives it.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: It goes into a queue for parents to approve.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: And if it's not a number from your own phone, we'll default it to unknown number to deny.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: Versus this looks like a number that you have, or is in your ecosystem, this looks like an approved.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: So again, we kind of help parents make that easy, but we basically filter out all the spam and scammers that don't reach your kid on stage haven't.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, I want this for my own.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: I was just gonna say, can you create this for adults, please?
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, because hello, please sign me up for that.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my goodness.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's awful.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: Now with the harm, we spent a lot of time.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: So we actually started this business.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Ann and I sort of said, let's do this August 2023.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: So we've been working on this a while.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: Again, that first year was a lot of like, what is it?
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think from there, I felt like really strongly that if we're gonna do AI moderation, we have to be so thoughtful about how we do that.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I found a guy who started a company all about AI moderation for kids.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: He ended up selling it to Discord.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: He's an advisor now for our business.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: But what he did was say these are the best models for all of these types of risk, for grooming, for porn, for language, for, you know, filtered word lists, like all these different things.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: So he saved us a lot of cycles because again, I'm a huge believer when you're starting companies, you don't need to reinvent every wheel that's ever been invented.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a new space for me.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: My last company was a very different company.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like, okay, like what do you know and how can I learn the fastest I can learn?
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: So he helped us compile the best models for each of these risks.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then again, we kind of had to hone them for what makes sense for eight to 12.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, because again, I think for adults, it's a very different list of moderation.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so what we did is we really thought hard about whether we were ready to make sure that we cover every message, every video, every image, every link, everything gets moderated with Sage Haven.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: Even calls will transcribe and let you know if something happened on a voice call.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: That just like has not existed before.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so again, it's just that using the latest and greatest technologies like AI for good, great, let's do that.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: So we get rid of the spam and the scammers.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then again, we're really robust in how we do the AI moderation and kids make up their own slang.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's impossible.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do we fix that?
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: We put parents in the loop by letting parents supervise from their own phone.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: If they see something we missed, we made it really easy for them to give us feedback.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, hey, they made up this new word and it actually means this thing.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: All of that flows.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like we're kind of crowdsourcing the slang.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: And we even let kids like flag things for us.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then again, we'll like go into that.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: So again, we're crowdsourcing all the slang so that we can like hopefully have the best AI moderation for kids on the market.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: Cause I can see some parents saying, you know, cyberbullying is not really, it's not really a thing where I live.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's not a problem in our schools.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: Other parents aren't saying it's an issue.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: My kids say it's not an issue.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think when I hear that, I think that just says, but cyberbullying is is cyber.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's the world wide web, it's the whole world.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and here's what I'll say about cyberbullying.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: The stats, the stats are compelling.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: So about 58, 59, 60% of kids, and that's big studies from different parts of the world.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: So that number I think is pretty hardened at this place.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's how many re kids report being cyberbullied at some point in their childhood.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: So 60%.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: Now, a lot of that bullying is not one-on-one.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: So even if your kid is lucky enough to not be the target of cyberbullying, you can all but guarantee they'll witness it.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: You can all but guarantee they'll be in a group chat where they see it go, you know, from one kid to the next.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of what we're gonna be training is even like, how do you be a bystander?
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like almost all bullying is stopped by a third party.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Almost never is the victim of the bullying the one able to stand up and stop it.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um just if you study how this usually goes.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because the people that get side, it's no, it's not surprising when you think about who they're picking.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: But how could we train more kids to be aware of this and to stand up and say, hey, that's not cool?
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's that that simple.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, hey, quit it.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's that simple.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: So again, like let's train kids, let's let's help them be great digital citizens and help their help their buddy and not just like awkwardly pretend they didn't see it.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, let's again, let's raise a new cohort of kids that has a much much healthier relationship with tech and each other.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm excited that we could hopefully prevent, you know, all really 60% of kids getting bullied.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to see this stat with Sage Haven users in a couple years.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: I really think we can change the trajectory of this.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have to accept that.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right, no.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's way too high.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's ridiculous.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's just not acceptable.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think people too, like they go, I don't this doesn't feel like my problem.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I go, first of all, read Anxious Generation, the book.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's a really compelling aggregation of some very compelling data on this.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: And the numbers are a little jaw-dropping.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I will say this 20 to 30% of girls between 11 and 17 are self-harming.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: So the the level of severity that we're talking about here is not just a little bit of anxiety, depression at times because an incident happened at school.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like a lot of times, this is rising to a level of like real wellness, like true physical wellness.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for boys, it looks a little different, but there's been a lot written recently about sort of what I'm calling failure to thrive.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like boys that don't go to college, but they also don't enter the workforce.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: They just want to be play video games all day.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: And like again, it's just like it manifests itself a little differently, but they're not well.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: They're not mentally and physically thriving.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: And again, we let a whole cohort of kids have too much exposure.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: They're on screens, on average, teens are on screens eight and a half hours a day.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my goodness.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's the average.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: Holy cow.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: Which is just staggering when you think about what else can you not do because you're on your screen eight and a half hours a day.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like, are you they're not getting the physical fitness, they're not getting outside.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: They're actually not even meeting their friends in real life.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: And again, it's like we've lost the balance.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: We've lost that.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't think phones are bad.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think we could find ways to create experiences where they can connect and even have a lot of entertainment in a way that doesn't keep them locked in for that long.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so again, I just think we got to rethink what the incentives are, what the experiences are.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: And we need a new cohort of kids that's a little bit more balanced when it comes to all things tech and friendships and family and physical health and sleep and all the things.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my goodness.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: That is a staggering number because I consider myself that I am actually on my phone too much because I'm on it for work a lot.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, my numbers come back like four and a half hours a day.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I still feel like, oh my goodness, that's so much when you're selling me eight hours.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: I can't even imagine how that would even happen.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: So eight to twelve is five and a half hours.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like, oh my god.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: And 13 to 18 is eight and a half hours.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: And usually the difference is like when they get that social media, it basically adds that three hours.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and if you break it down, one thing I think is just really interesting is like since the invention of TV, humans have watched about three hours of TV a day.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: But since we added smartphones, that number did not drop.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: We just added on top of it.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we just add another device, television.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: I was thinking it would go down.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: I would think it would go down.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of I just think that's interesting to think about.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, I'm not anti-tech, I'm not anti-TV.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm certainly not anti-communicating with loved ones.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: I just think eight and a half hours isn't is too much.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, even as like I parent a 10 and seven-year-old, like I'm not so hardcore with them that it's like one hour of screen time across, you know, it's like, I just don't think that works either.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: And like our life ebbs and flows.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, we there has to be some boundaries about, you know, we don't let screens up in their bedrooms and you know, we try to do as much co-family viewing as opposed to everyone on their own.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes that's not realistic because they cannot agree on what to watch.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, whatever.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're we have iPads for my kids.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: You have to live in the real world.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but we set screen time boundaries and kind of try to just find that sweet spot.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: What do your kids think about you doing this for a living?
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's funny because I think they've never known me as not an entrepreneur since they were born.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: I was like starting companies.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I think they would say, like, oh, she works a lot.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: She's always, you know, like doing all of that.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's true.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think with this one, it's been fun to build a product that they use.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um and my seven-year-old, not as much.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: He's just not quite there yet.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: But my 10-year-old, it's so fun.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: We'll launch a new feature.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'll be like, What do you think?
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: And she'll say, like, I don't like this AR filter that you added.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's that's cringe, mom.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, okay, great.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, all right.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: You have your own little test case right there in the house.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: But it is really fun to build for your own family.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: And because you see the need, you're living the need.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: And as your children are getting older, you're seeing the progression and how it changes and how they're evolving and the technology, you're walking the technology growth with them as they are aging as well, which allows you to have such a cool perspective.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know that they would have this perspective, but I work so much less now than I did with my last company, which I started when I was 28 and had no kids.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: And like, yeah, just doing it again.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm almost 44, but it's like, you know, figuring out how to do entrepreneurship as a mom is also kind of interesting.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I kind of joke, like sometimes I say, Yeah, it's hard to have a working mom.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I can't be at absolutely everything, but also like relative to how much it used to be, I'm like, this is so much more balanced than you realize.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: Than it was.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and it's living proof that you're making choices and you don't necessarily have to work harder all the time in life.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like that whole mantra of work hard.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: You have to work hard in order to get anywhere in life.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, okay, but you talked about the dial.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, okay, but there is a working hard dial, you know?
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, is it turned up to a hundred percent all the time?
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: And if it is, then you're gonna burn out and that's not gonna work.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's no balance.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I grew up playing sports.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: I was a basketball player and played in college.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there was like athlete mentality of like, I'm just gonna work harder through this.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's how I started.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: If there was ever a problem, I would just work harder.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I think looking back after doing this a few times, I really came to realize like very few things actually move the needle.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: Being more thoughtful about what I'm spending my time on is actually like such a gift now.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I have that instinctual, like, that's not gonna matter.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: This one really does.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: So like let's really go deep on this one thing.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, again, I don't know that I would have had the confidence to do that younger in my life, but doing this a few times, like that's what comes from repeat founding.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you kind of understand more instinctually what matters and what doesn't.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I it it's enabled me to have like a much better experience this time around.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like much, I'm much healthier than I was before when I was working, like just bananas hours.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like and I it leaves space for my kids, and that's really lovely.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: Which is wonderful.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: And you also over time you have more connections and you said it before, so I'm gonna say it again.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: Recognizing that you don't have to invent everything from scratch and finding the people and partnering with people that are experts in something that you're trying to learn or you're trying to build, or you're trying to grow.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's like there's no like bigger metal just because you did it all by yourself.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it doesn't work that way.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and like I don't know if it was a business school thing, but it's like A people find and hire A people.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: B people hire C people.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like I just am constantly like, I want to be the dumbest person at my company.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: Agree.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like always.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be the worst at each of these elements.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what I do not need to be good at everything.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: I just need to find someone who's better than me at all of these different things.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, again, that also makes my life a lot easier because I don't have the burden of having to be an expert.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you start a business and it is kind of funny.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: Someone told me there's like 30 roles at a company.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: So until you have 30 people, yeah, you're doing multiple.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, we have now four full-time people and probably five fractional people that help on different things.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like, I love that I'm like, okay, we got to find someone who knows this.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not wasting cycles and I'm not gonna try to get up this learning curve.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: I just gotta find the right person.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that mentality shift has changed a lot.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: Where the first time I felt like I have to actually be an expert at all of these different elements.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it's unrealistic and it just creates like a mountain of stress versus feeling like, let me share this burden with, you know, let me find a great accountant and let me find a great marketing person.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: And like, let's really see if we can creative deals with these people where they get a little stake in the business and they give us a couple hours.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, like how can we build something that really leverages experts?
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: Which is the way that you should do it.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's showing wisdom, showing wisdom and smarts.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, where can people find Sagehaven and does it cost money?
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: So we just launched officially past our wait list and like early users three months ago.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: So you can find us in the Apple App Store right now.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if you're an Android user, we'll be launching Android in about a month or two.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't know when this is gonna air, but you can go to Sage Haven for Kids and join the Android wait list there, and then we'll let you know as soon as that's up.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: So we're excited to get that live as well.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it does cost money.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: So we debated long and hard about freemium and all the things, but where we ultimately landed was because it's interoperable, not everybody needs to be on Sage Haven for this to have full value for your family.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm a huge believer in incentive alignment.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: If we make it free, then that's how companies start adding ads.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then all of a sudden they're motivated to keep your kids addicted.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the cleanest way to move away from that is to have a subscription business.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: So we charge$4.99 per kid per month for Sage Haven.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's sort of like a no-brainer price point for peace of mind.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's not we have even$799 bundles for families.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: So we feel like that is a bit of a no-brainer price point for safe peace of mind.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, I feel like, especially with television, it's like, okay, we pay all this money for all these subscriptions for these streaming services, and half of them now have ads.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, what am I paying for here?
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I love that you're really like taking it all the way down to the end user and saying, well, I could give it to you for free, but then if we have to have ads in order to pay to make the business run, is that really better?
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, no, it's not.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and I I truly believe like to change the world, you got to change the incentives.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: As a company, even if I'm well intentioned, I want a financial incentive to have just the right amount of engagement for you, but not to keep you on there for eight and a half hours a day.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, if I make more money the longer you're on there, I can already tell you there's gonna be cracks in that foundation.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like it has to make sense all the way down.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we're committed to no ads, we're committed to never selling your data, like just all the things that you would actually want.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, and again, it's like this is what happens when moms build tech companies.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: We actually like think about what we actually want.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: Moms should be running the world.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, without a doubt.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: To that one.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: All right, before we run out of time, I am really curious.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: What is on your bucket list in life?
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: Man, I actually feel so blessed because I'm like, I've traveled a bunch.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: I have the family that I want.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I am creating the life that I Always dreamt for myself.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like I feel just so lucky.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think part of that was like I had a great family.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like I'm just trying to provide that same family foundation for my own kids and be present and have healthy relationships as they grow.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I really value, to be honest with you.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, success will come and has come.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: And again, to me though, it's just about living in my values day in and day out.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's my bucket list.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's beautiful.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: That is so beautiful.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything that I didn't touch on that you want to make sure we talk about?
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: Did we miss anything?
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: The only thing I wanted to let parents know if they're listening is we also learned so much when we did all those interviews and talked to the experts.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: And we felt like the information was kind of all over the place.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: So we aggregated it and we make it free for parents.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: So if you go to Sagehaven for kids slash resources, we have kind of everything we learned for free.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's like oh that's great.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: Guidebooks if your kids are between five and 12.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the evidence-based best practices that you can follow.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: And again, how-to videos to actually set them up.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know parents get pretty overwhelmed when it's the parental controls.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: We really make that super simple.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then again, just like all the things that we wanted, we're offering to parents.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: So go check that out if you're sort of in this space and sort of nervous to take the first step or not sure where to begin.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's just such a great place to go.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, do I have my parental control set up?
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: And what is the evidence?
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: Am I do I want to give my kid a phone?
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, let me think, be thoughtful about it.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: This is a great place to start.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: Ooh, and that's so great.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I love, I've had a bunch of guests on that have like intensive research libraries on their website.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's just such a gift to be able to just give that out to the public because sometimes people just don't even know where to go to get information that you can trust.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: That is also a challenge.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and a lot of influencers try to sell that, you know, it's like take this online class or pay for this thing.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I and we're lucky enough to be able to offer that for free because it's not our entire business.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: But we felt like we really shouldn't gatekeep best practices for the thing we care the most about.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_00: And this is sort of what we learned along the way.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: And again, we talked to experts, we found experts, and we aggregated what we learned.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully that helps parents take the first step.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, which is so great.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for doing that.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: Before we go, I love to ask guests if there's a book or books you can recommend more than one that you have read that has impacted you personally or professionally.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: So what would you like to recommend?
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think the first one that came to mind was Shoe Dog by Phil Knight.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_00: This is the Nike story.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason it resonated and continues to resonate is because you realize, and especially in business school, we'd have these case studies that it would be like, here's the problem, and then oh, they're massively successful.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: Shoe dog makes you really appreciate how hard it is to get to the top.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that these stories don't just happen overnight.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: Nike did not happen overnight.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: And to go through sort of the trials and tribulations and almost bankruptcies of Nike is like a reminder to me day in and day out of like everyone makes this look easier than it is.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: And you gotta kind of just like trust that you you're not getting that whole story most of the time.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: And to like don't let that noise create paralysis.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's like actually this just takes a long time for a lot of people.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's one that I really love and like continue.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: I remind myself about that.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'd say the second one is one I just read called The Courage to Commit.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's by Sean Johnson, the Olympic gymnast, and her husband, Andrew East.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think what resonated with me about this book is like in a world of like kind of optimization, it's like the fastest way to make money is to skip jobs every couple years.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: And like, you know, all the venture capital community is like fail fast and move on to your next one.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like a little bit anti that.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually like get right with your values, like understand who you are and what you care about, and then actually just like really commit.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: Go deep.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: What does radical commitment look like versus the overoptimization?
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I think it is like a social media problem or a, you know, call it like a tender bumble problem of like, there's always a new piece of content, there's always a new date, like there's always a new outfit.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: What does it look like to actually do the opposite of that and kind of be really thoughtful about who you are, what you want to do, and then like really go deep.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I think Sage Haven for me feels like a deep commitment to something that I know is true.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: And even though I'm sure the product will change and evolve, it's like I know in my gut that this needs to exist.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, that book, I just hadn't heard that said like that.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it was really powerful.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and it also ties in with the first book, too, though, because it's about, you know, having the commitment to go the long mile, even when new shiny things keep coming in that might kind of take you off track.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm a true believer, the more you can connect inward with yourself, with as you keep talking talking about having what are your values, the lifestyle that you want to live, the more you can get really grounded and stable in that, the easier it is to commit to the things that are important to you and not let all those other things have an impact.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: Once you not let the noise get you, not let the social comparison get you.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_00: And like for entrepreneurship, that's so real.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's because you are constantly getting fed the latest funding rounds and the latest, you know, whatever.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like at some point, it's like almost like denoise that and go back to like what's really true for you.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: What's your why?
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: What's your why?
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_00: What's your why?
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: And just trust it, like through the noise, like commit to it and stick with it.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, Kate, I love what you're doing.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like you really are making a difference in the world and making a difference for voices that actually don't have a voice, to be quite honest.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_01: Children are not developing this level of technology.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_01: It has to come from moms that are out there doing the work.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I real so I really appreciate you for coming and sharing what you're doing.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited to share this with all of our audience and just keep up the good work.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it's been a pleasure to meet you.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: You're just also a great person and a great entrepreneur.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you for being on the show.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: As you know, it's a big deal to be able to share the story and get the word out about this.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm really, really grateful to this platform.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: My pleasure.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_00: My pleasure.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: Happy to do it, and we'll definitely stay connected.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Gene.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for joining us for this week's episode of Building the Best You.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: If you are ready to take a deeper dive into transforming your life, check out my Empowerment Fundamentals course on my website, houseofgermar.com.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, and I will see you next week with another inspiring guest.