Latest / We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism / Ep. 7: The Big S... It's Submission

Transcript

Ep. 7: The Big S... It's Submission · We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism

• 0:00
  Welcome to the We Are More podcast.
• 0:13
  My name is Alyssa.
• 0:15
  And my name is Bri.
• 0:16
  We are two sisters passionate about all things faith and feminism.
• 0:20
  We believe that Jesus trusted, respected, and encouraged women to teach and preach His
• 0:25
  word.
• 0:26
  And apparently that's controversial.
• 0:28
  It's a bit comfy.
• 0:39
  Welcome to-
• 0:40
  Look how loud you are.
• 0:48
  Hey welcome to episode seven.
• 0:52
  I keep thinking of every time I make a joke, oh we're in kindergarten.
• 0:57
  How old are you when you're seven?
• 0:59
  Uh, second grade?
• 1:01
  First grade?
• 1:02
  How old are you when you're seven?
• 1:05
  Alright, hey and welcome to episode seven of We Are More.
• 1:09
  Bree's over there drinking coffee.
• 1:12
  Ow.
• 1:15
  It is the middle of the day so we shouldn't need the coffee quite as much.
• 1:18
  What are you talking about?
• 1:19
  I'm sorry.
• 1:20
  There's nothing greater than a four o'clock coffee.
• 1:22
  And I stand by that.
• 1:23
  It's five thirty.
• 1:24
  There's nothing greater than a five thirty coffee.
• 1:26
  And I've always said that.
• 1:28
  We did spend like thirty minutes in line at Starbucks today.
• 1:31
  So I better drink that whole thing.
• 1:32
  You better.
• 1:33
  I already drank mine.
• 1:34
  Are you proud?
• 1:35
  And I stand also by, always get a large.
• 1:39
  I don't stand by that.
• 1:40
  Well that's because you don't drink very much.
• 1:41
  I never will finish one.
• 1:43
  That's silly.
• 1:44
  I'm sorry.
• 1:45
  No waste of money.
• 1:46
  No waste of time.
• 1:47
  That's why I don't get the large.
• 1:48
  Really, really rude.
• 1:50
  I can still hear that.
• 1:52
  I'm trying to be quiet.
• 1:53
  It's not going well.
• 1:54
  I need like a camel back.
• 1:58
  I want you to go into Starbucks and ask for a bring your camel back with you.
• 2:04
  You know.
• 2:05
  Bring your own cup.
• 2:06
  Yeah.
• 2:07
  Will they fill a camel back?
• 2:08
  What are your thoughts?
• 2:09
  What if you had a wine bra?
• 2:10
  Would they fill that?
• 2:11
  Probably.
• 2:12
  I think that would be the option.
• 2:14
  You'd have a lot of lift.
• 2:15
  I mean, I assume you'd have a lot of lift if it was full of wine also.
• 2:21
  Yeah.
• 2:22
  I'm fine either way.
• 2:23
  How have we already got off the rails?
• 2:27
  We're two minutes in, Bree.
• 2:29
  We're nowhere near the rails.
• 2:31
  I feel like we should introduce ourselves also because...
• 2:34
  My name's Brianna.
• 2:36
  That was horrifying.
• 2:40
  So if you're new to the podcast, my name is Alyssa and my sister over there who's drinking
• 2:46
  the coffee is Bree.
• 2:47
  I'm Bree.
• 2:48
  I can introduce myself.
• 2:50
  Thank you very much.
• 2:54
  And we are working...
• 2:57
  More.
• 2:58
  Yes, but also we're working through a little mini series on some of the big topics of Christian
• 3:10
  feminism.
• 3:11
  So we have done modesty and women in leadership.
• 3:16
  And last week we talked about some of the big questions that we've been seeing from
• 3:22
  either side of the argument.
• 3:24
  So why do we hate women?
• 3:26
  I mean, nope.
• 3:31
  We love women.
• 3:32
  That's the point.
• 3:33
  Why do we hate men?
• 3:35
  There we go.
• 3:36
  Why do they hate women?
• 3:39
  And then also why did we stay in church and why are we still people of faith?
• 3:44
  So if you didn't listen to that one, definitely jump back and take a listen.
• 3:48
  I don't know.
• 3:49
  Or plus also listen to this.
• 3:52
  And then jump back.
• 3:53
  And then jump back.
• 3:54
  And listen to that one.
• 3:55
  Because that one was pretty good and that kind of, I think, leads to foundations for
• 4:00
  a lot of the questions that we get.
• 4:02
  Yeah.
• 4:03
  And our personalities.
• 4:04
  We're a good time.
• 4:05
  We are a fun time.
• 4:06
  Except for when I don't want to be.
• 4:08
  We're more fun midday than we are at 830 at night.
• 4:12
  It's really true.
• 4:13
  You've gotten very old.
• 4:14
  I don't know what's wrong with me.
• 4:17
  Like it hits 830 and I am in bed and watching TV and nothing is getting done.
• 4:24
  No.
• 4:25
  Last night, actually, I woke up and I was like, holy cow, it must be really early in
• 4:30
  the morning.
• 4:31
  I woke up.
• 4:32
  I was like, dang, it's so early in the morning.
• 4:35
  And it was 1053 at night.
• 4:38
  Oh.
• 4:39
  But yeah.
• 4:40
  We are recording midday today, so hopefully we'll be peppier.
• 4:43
  I don't know that 530 is midday.
• 4:45
  I mean, it is if you stay up until 11.
• 4:48
  I'm only up for maybe three more hours.
• 4:51
  That's true.
• 4:54
  But it's a Saturday, so we slept in a little bit.
• 4:56
  Hallelujah for a Saturday.
• 4:59
  That's one of God's greatest blessings.
• 5:01
  Saturdays is a Saturday.
• 5:04
  Possibly also a Sunday.
• 5:05
  Tomorrow is Mother's Day for us.
• 5:07
  Happy Mother's Day.
• 5:08
  For you, Mother's Day is long in the past.
• 5:12
  Yeah.
• 5:13
  Welcome to the future.
• 5:15
  Nope, the past.
• 5:18
  To the land of tomorrow.
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  So today, now that we're five minutes in, today we're going to talk about submission.
• 5:29
  The big S.
• 5:30
  The big S.
• 5:34
  I know another big S.
• 5:35
  Stacey!
• 5:38
  Shout out.
• 5:44
  So we wanted to talk about this topic because this is probably the hottest button issue
• 5:52
  facing women in the church today.
• 5:55
  There have been a lot and we have gone through several of the topics, but this is the one
• 6:01
  that for me anyway hits home probably the hardest.
• 6:06
  And for me, makes me want to avoid marriage at all costs.
• 6:12
  But I think that such an important part of this is that because you've experienced that,
• 6:17
  and I thought the same thing before I got married too, this attitude towards women submitting
• 6:24
  to their husbands, and we'll go through what that means in a second, has made us both want
• 6:30
  to avoid marriage.
• 6:33
  Like it's making women avoid marriage.
• 6:37
  Is that really the goal?
• 6:39
  And I can tell you it's not because having been in Christian circles for a long time,
• 6:43
  the whole goal of life is marriage.
• 6:44
  Oh my gosh, the amount of people that, maybe I shouldn't say this, that have gotten married
• 6:52
  while they were in college, like people that I knew that got married.
• 6:55
  And how many of them are divorced now?
• 6:58
  It's actually, yeah, it's shocking.
• 7:01
  And it gets, I think part of it is because it gets pushed so hard, like get married,
• 7:05
  get married, get married.
• 7:06
  But you're so young, you don't know yourself.
• 7:09
  Oh my gosh.
• 7:10
  I still don't know myself and I'm ancient.
• 7:15
  And I mean, I got married in college, but it was incredibly unreasonably hard.
• 7:22
  Yeah.
• 7:23
  Because you don't realize that until you get a lot older that, oh my gosh, I did not know
• 7:27
  everything that I thought I did when I was that age.
• 7:30
  I mean, you're literally a child.
• 7:33
  You are an actual child.
• 7:34
  Your brain has scientifically not fully developed.
• 7:37
  You can't rent a car.
• 7:41
  And if you can't rent a car, you shouldn't get married.
• 7:45
  We're going way off topic here.
• 7:47
  So first we kind of wanted to talk about what submission in the church means, because if
• 7:53
  you're not a churchy person, I don't know that this, I remember talking about this to
• 7:59
  one of my friends who did not grow up in the church.
• 8:02
  And I said something about like, oh, they have a really submissive marriage.
• 8:06
  And she looked at me real weird.
• 8:08
  Like we were talking about- Oh, yeah.
• 8:12
  In the bedroom.
• 8:13
  Yeah.
• 8:14
  Yeah.
• 8:15
  So if you're not familiar with this.
• 8:18
  Well, also, I think it's very conservative Christian pushed because my friends who are
• 8:25
  Catholic or just not as religious, they don't really understand what I'm talking about either.
• 8:32
  No, I don't think it's really talked about in this way at all.
• 8:35
  You do have like that tradwife movement, but I still think it's talked about differently
• 8:41
  than the word submission.
• 8:44
  But for people who grew up in the church, this is particularly women that grew up in
• 8:49
  the church.
• 8:50
  This is all we hear about all the time.
• 8:54
  There's like 40 sermons on it a year.
• 8:57
  Or like casually, maybe your pastor screams at his wife from the pulpit to submit.
• 9:01
  Like casually.
• 9:02
  You know, as you do.
• 9:06
  So I think Bre made some notes that are interesting.
• 9:09
  Honestly, I blacked out.
• 9:11
  I have no idea what I noted.
• 9:13
  Well, it's on the screen so you can do you think I have eyes of a what animal has really
• 9:21
  good eyes?
• 9:22
  An owl.
• 9:23
  Eyes of a wombat.
• 9:24
  Do wombat have?
• 9:25
  I don't know.
• 9:26
  What is a wombat?
• 9:27
  I just made up that saying.
• 9:28
  I just made it up.
• 9:29
  Off the top of my head.
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  Eyes of a wombat.
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  We could name this podcast.
• 9:32
  Eyes of a wombat.
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  They'd be like.
• 9:34
  What am I going to listen to?
• 9:44
  And it's about submission.
• 9:47
  Great.
• 9:49
  Love that for us.
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  What did I say?
• 9:51
  How do you picture traditional submissive marriage?
• 9:56
  Or what have you been told?
• 9:57
  Yeah, let's talk about it.
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  The way that I guess I always saw it was very much like the man leads everything.
• 10:07
  He makes all the decisions, the big decisions, the little decisions.
• 10:12
  And as the wife, you just sort of follow along.
• 10:18
  And you don't have a whole lot of value.
• 10:24
  There's not a lot of importance to your role.
• 10:27
  There's not a lot of recognition for your role.
• 10:30
  Even though you're expected to do everything around the house, everything for the kids.
• 10:36
  Also in the current economy, you have to have a job.
• 10:39
  You have so much responsibility.
• 10:42
  But no say in anything.
• 10:44
  Very little control.
• 10:46
  And I saw this play out many, many times in my whole community.
• 10:53
  And it never seemed to work very well.
• 10:56
  The way that I pictured it...
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  Now I wrote down a couple of notes.
• 11:01
  This sounds really bad, but the way that I picture it is like, because we grew up with
• 11:05
  dogs, right?
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  We've had 1,000 dogs.
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  And you can always tell when you have two dogs in a room, one will kind of bow down
• 11:13
  to the other.
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  That's what I picture when I think of submissive marriage.
• 11:18
  I think that men who really believe in it and want to live it out, see women as stupid.
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  See women as worthless.
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  See them as not leaders.
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  That they hold very little value.
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  And that because they were born with a weenie, God looked down at them and said, you are
• 11:43
  blessed, my son.
• 11:47
  Maybe that's a big graphic.
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  But in my experience, men who really believe in that and want to live it out, see women
• 11:57
  as no greater than an animal.
• 12:00
  Well, I think the church has tried to rebrand a little bit because the word patriarchy and
• 12:09
  submission, they're not marketable.
• 12:13
  It doesn't work in modern day society.
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  So they try to rebrand it and they'll say things like, well, it doesn't mean that she's
• 12:21
  less than him.
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  It's equal.
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  They're equal roles.
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  They just have separate roles.
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  It's just that he's the leader.
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  It's just that he makes all the decisions and you do need to submit to him, but you
• 12:33
  are equal.
• 12:34
  And like, think about that in any other context.
• 12:38
  If you were to say, because people love to compare marriages to companies, football teams,
• 12:47
  whatever where you have to have one leader.
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  So let's compare those things.
• 12:52
  Let's say you have a company and there's the CEO and then there's the general store manager.
• 13:02
  No one is going to look at those two roles and say equality.
• 13:06
  They're equal, just different.
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  No.
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  Or on a football team, you've got the head coach or-
• 13:15
  The towel boy.
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  The towel boy.
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  Or even like a pitching coach or something like that, like a more minor coach.
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  No one is going to look at those two roles and say equal, just different.
• 13:28
  And that leads us into like separate but equal.
• 13:31
  Exactly.
• 13:32
  Has always never been equal.
• 13:34
  Why have we not learned that as a society?
• 13:37
  The church is trying to push that so hard.
• 13:40
  Separate but equal, separate but equal, separate but equal is not equal.
• 13:45
  When the role of a man is lead, make the decisions, tell your wife what she's going to do next,
• 13:54
  her will has to be for what you want instead.
• 14:00
  And that's something that's a whole other thing.
• 14:05
  But that's something that is often said is that a wife's desire should be for her husband.
• 14:11
  So all of the wife's wants, needs, ambitions prior to marriage are supposed to kind of
• 14:18
  become less than her husband's desires, ambitions, wants.
• 14:24
  And you can't look at those two things and tell me, but they're equal.
• 14:33
  Now not all conservative Christians are trying to say it's equal.
• 14:36
  Some of them are very blatant about one role is better than the other.
• 14:40
  God created men first, he likes them better.
• 14:43
  Some people are very blatant about it.
• 14:45
  But I think the church as a whole is trying to rebrand and pretend.
• 14:49
  Well that's where the term complementarianism came from.
• 14:53
  It's because they knew patriarchy is that it's a hot button.
• 15:00
  You can't market it.
• 15:02
  So it's a lot easier to say complementary.
• 15:06
  Well let's define those real quick too because I know we've we have talked about this in
• 15:11
  the past.
• 15:12
  But if you aren't caught up on episodes or haven't heard that one in a while, complementarianism
• 15:21
  within the church setting is defined by people who believe that women are complementary to
• 15:30
  men.
• 15:32
  So instead of being equal, instead of being on equal playing ground, the women are simply
• 15:40
  there to complement, to be a helper for the men.
• 15:47
  Sometimes that being their husband, sometimes it just being whoever walks by.
• 15:53
  And then there's egalitarianism, which is the flip side.
• 15:56
  And it's the belief that women and men are equal, made equally in God's eyes, equally
• 16:03
  meant to rule the world together.
• 16:08
  So that's kind of a simplistic version of that I guess.
• 16:12
  So that's kind of how we saw things growing up and still see them today.
• 16:18
  Yeah, I don't know that I so much thought about it when I was younger, but as I've gotten
• 16:24
  older and more towards the marrying age, I definitely noticed that a lot more.
• 16:30
  Like 1950s households.
• 16:33
  That is the like epitome of a perfect submissive marriage.
• 16:39
  Well really I think that the church idealizes, say it again, idealizes the 1950s whole lifestyle.
• 16:51
  And for men, yeah, things were going great.
• 16:55
  They came home from work, they put on their slippers that were waiting for them at the
• 16:59
  door, they sat in their chair and read their newspaper and dinner was brought to them.
• 17:03
  And their wife was beautiful.
• 17:04
  She just recently changed out of her work clothes into her dinner clothes.
• 17:10
  She's got on her pearls.
• 17:12
  For women and many other groups, don't get me wrong, this is not specific to women, but
• 17:18
  in this context for women, times were bad.
• 17:22
  They spent the entire day doing things around the house, cleaning, some of them had jobs,
• 17:30
  taking care of the yard, taking care of the kids and the pets and the blah, blah, blah.
• 17:34
  And then he comes home and she has to serve him.
• 17:38
  Well what's crazy is like, he works a 9 to 5.
• 17:41
  She works a 24-7.
• 17:42
  Right.
• 17:43
  When does she get a break?
• 17:45
  Right, but if you are looking at the world from a complementarian standpoint, that looks
• 17:50
  great.
• 17:52
  Because she spends her whole life in service to him.
• 17:55
  And I guess he's in service to God in theory?
• 17:59
  And so often you see that leads to abuse.
• 18:03
  Oh, all the time.
• 18:04
  Time and time again.
• 18:05
  We have 50 examples right off the top of our heads.
• 18:09
  Because you give someone that kind of power and slap God's name on it, of course it's
• 18:17
  going to lead to abuse.
• 18:19
  Well they say absolute power corrupts absolutely.
• 18:23
  And in this very submissive standpoint, and a lot of the resources we're about to talk
• 18:30
  about, these men are being given absolute power.
• 18:36
  Their wives are not to question them even if they aren't following God.
• 18:41
  Even if they're doing wrong and their wives know they're doing wrong, their wives are
• 18:47
  still supposed to follow them.
• 18:49
  Into what?
• 18:50
  Hell.
• 18:51
  I mean really?
• 18:52
  Like at some point that's what you're asking.
• 18:55
  You're asking wives to follow their husbands submissively into hell, and is God saving
• 19:00
  them after that?
• 19:03
  I have serious questions about that because if you're following your husband into sin,
• 19:08
  knowing that he's sinning, knowing that he is doing wrong, you can't tell me that you're
• 19:12
  not also culpable in that.
• 19:15
  So we have two, this is going to be I think a two to three part podcast.
• 19:22
  Because we have a lot to say.
• 19:23
  We have so much to say.
• 19:24
  We haven't even got to the research yet.
• 19:25
  We're just really-
• 19:26
  We're just mad!
• 19:27
  You know how Taylor Swift said that her new set for the Torture Poets department was Female
• 19:37
  Rage?
• 19:38
  The musical?
• 19:39
  That's what we should call this episode.
• 19:42
  Female Rage.
• 19:43
  But so far Brie hasn't sung.
• 19:46
  I could start.
• 19:47
  You could.
• 19:48
  I have beatboxed.
• 19:50
  That is new for us that you haven't had something to sing about yet.
• 19:53
  I sang right at the beginning and you just didn't hit record.
• 19:57
  Sorry.
• 19:58
  So that's really what we're going to do.
• 20:00
  So anyway we're gonna for this episode in particular we're gonna go through two separate
• 20:04
  articles.
• 20:06
  One of them is from a very complementarian standpoint and one of them is from a very
• 20:12
  egalitarian standpoint and talk about the merits of each and let you decide from there.
• 20:21
  Yeah.
• 20:22
  Okay.
• 20:24
  The first one and I want to talk about the title a little bit because it's important.
• 20:28
  It's called Submission Does It Proceed the Fall?
• 20:33
  Does it?
• 20:34
  So we talked about this in a previous episode as well but in order for the concept of submission
• 20:41
  to work biblically it has to be before the fall.
• 20:46
  So it has to be before Adam and Eve sinned.
• 20:48
  God's ideal perfect view of marriage.
• 20:52
  Now, there's not a lot of stuff in the Bible before the fall.
• 20:56
  Not a lot, no.
• 20:57
  There was nakedness.
• 20:58
  There's a lot of nakedness.
• 21:02
  Which means...
• 21:06
  So in order to believe in submission as God's perfect plan for his people it has to have
• 21:12
  happened before Adam and Eve ate the apple, sinned, etc.
• 21:16
  Do you think God's perfect plan for humanity is veganism?
• 21:20
  I don't know, maybe.
• 21:22
  God?
• 21:23
  Who there?
• 21:26
  So this article makes the argument that submission does precede the fall because it has to.
• 21:33
  In order for it to hold up throughout Christianity it has to precede the fall.
• 21:38
  That's what everything comes down to.
• 21:42
  So he's got nine points here.
• 21:44
  Nine beautiful points.
• 21:46
  Nine points.
• 21:48
  And we're gonna go through them and talk about them.
• 21:51
  I'm not gonna read directly because I don't want to get sued.
• 21:56
  I do.
• 21:57
  Oh, Brie does.
• 21:58
  So maybe she can read directly.
• 21:59
  But we're gonna go through them.
• 22:03
  Maybe not in order.
• 22:04
  But... and just kind of talk about them.
• 22:07
  So the first point that he makes is the order of creation.
• 22:11
  We love this one.
• 22:12
  This is my favorite.
• 22:13
  Wait, where's my Bible?
• 22:16
  So he is making the argument that because Adam was created before Eve, that this means
• 22:23
  automatically that that is the foundation for how human relationships should go.
• 22:29
  And you've got to think, this is his most important point because he's putting it at
• 22:33
  number one.
• 22:34
  That's number one.
• 22:35
  Absolutely.
• 22:36
  What came before Adam?
• 22:37
  Everything.
• 22:38
  Everything else.
• 22:42
  So that means that we're at the bottom of the pecking order, ladies and gentlemen.
• 22:45
  I better go submit to the dog.
• 22:48
  I mean, seriously, but that is a groundbreaking point.
• 22:54
  Everything else was created first.
• 22:57
  Men and women came last.
• 23:02
  The sun, the stars, the earth, the plants and animals.
• 23:07
  And I'm gonna be honest with you guys.
• 23:11
  Conservative people not known for their love of the environment.
• 23:20
  They just want Jesus to come faster.
• 23:21
  And you can't fault them for that.
• 23:27
  But what a dumb point.
• 23:28
  I know.
• 23:29
  Come on.
• 23:30
  What does he go on to say about that?
• 23:33
  There's not a lot.
• 23:34
  He doesn't really, he says, this may seem to be weak grounds for an argument, but it
• 23:39
  was strong enough for Paul to mention in 1st Timothy, where he says he doesn't permit a
• 23:43
  woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, which we will get into later.
• 23:48
  But that's not really a point.
• 23:49
  No, Paul is not referencing back to creation here.
• 23:53
  No, he's mentioning culture.
• 23:56
  Right.
• 23:57
  So that one falls apart real quick.
• 24:01
  In case you hadn't noticed, we're gonna rip these apart.
• 24:03
  No, we're gonna let you decide for yourself.
• 24:07
  You can decide for yourself, but we're gonna rip them apart.
• 24:12
  So the second point, because we've got a there's nine of them, we got to speed through.
• 24:16
  He calls it the representation of the human race.
• 24:19
  So he says that Adam was the one who had a special role in representing the human race.
• 24:26
  Adam, he says, was considered the most at fault for sin, even though Eve was first.
• 24:33
  And then he quotes Corinthians.
• 24:34
  He says, as in Adam, all men shall die.
• 24:38
  So also in Christ shall all be made alive.
• 24:40
  He then says, Christ is the second Adam, not the second Eve, as we might expect if the
• 24:46
  Bible held Adam and Eve as being equal in representation and leadership.
• 24:51
  I have so many questions, but they all end in, why are you stupid?
• 25:04
  The thing is, the Bible does not say that Adam is more responsible for the first sin.
• 25:11
  It also doesn't say Eve was more responsible for the first sin.
• 25:15
  They're equally punished.
• 25:17
  And frankly, Eve gets it pretty bad.
• 25:20
  Have you heard about childbearing?
• 25:22
  That's why I'm not having a kid.
• 25:26
  Eve gets it pretty bad.
• 25:28
  And when he talks about in Corinthians that Adam is referenced and not Eve, that's just
• 25:33
  how things are written.
• 25:35
  It's just clunky to say, as in Adam and Eve, all people die.
• 25:39
  It's not how things were written back then because people, it was a patriarchal society.
• 25:44
  So things were written primarily to and about men.
• 25:49
  Women often, unfortunately, did get forgotten.
• 25:52
  Yeah.
• 25:53
  Like a middle child.
• 25:54
  Much like you, the middle of the children.
• 25:57
  Much like me.
• 26:00
  So then these are all, they're so bad.
• 26:03
  Okay.
• 26:04
  No, we're going to let you decide by yourself.
• 26:08
  So then it's the naming of women.
• 26:12
  So Adam, as you may or may not know, was given the responsibility to name the animals and
• 26:19
  Eve when she was created.
• 26:22
  You have a thought?
• 26:26
  I'm just saying, did he know that they didn't speak English back then?
• 26:31
  I don't think he does.
• 26:34
  So the verse is Genesis 2 23, and it's she shall be called woman because she was taken
• 26:40
  out of man.
• 26:41
  Okay.
• 26:42
  And then it talks, he says, this parallels the account of creation where God named the
• 26:47
  night and the day, the expanse, the waters.
• 26:50
  By naming them, he showed his authority.
• 26:52
  But let's point out, he didn't name them.
• 26:56
  God didn't name them.
• 26:57
  He told Adam to name them.
• 26:59
  So the person with the most authority didn't name them.
• 27:03
  Let's just, let's just rip that one out.
• 27:07
  Adam says she shall be called woman because she was taken out of man.
• 27:11
  Okay.
• 27:12
  But where does that mean that he has authority over her?
• 27:16
  No, it doesn't say that.
• 27:17
  It doesn't say that.
• 27:19
  Which means that you're reading into whatever you want to, you know, you know what I'm saying.
• 27:25
  Not just reading into it, you're putting words in God's mouth, which is again, what Christian
• 27:30
  feminists get accused of all the time, but it's clearly what's happening here.
• 27:34
  All right, guys, we're only on point four.
• 27:36
  All right.
• 27:37
  So then the naming of the human race that it's man, not man and woman, because that
• 27:45
  wouldn't be clunky.
• 27:46
  Men and women.
• 27:48
  Again, a very lazy argument.
• 27:51
  Also, give me a verse.
• 27:55
  Well the one he quotes, so here's what he quotes, Genesis 5, 1 through 2.
• 27:58
  When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God.
• 28:01
  Male and female he created them and he blessed them and named them man when they were created.
• 28:06
  Now I want to point out that that verse says male and female he created them and he blessed
• 28:13
  them and made them man when they were created.
• 28:18
  So perhaps, again, we lose a lot through translation and at the time, the word man, not the word
• 28:28
  man because it wasn't the same word in Greek and Hebrew, but was used as a gender neutral
• 28:35
  term.
• 28:36
  Yeah.
• 28:37
  Now you can, this is something you can absolutely look up.
• 28:39
  Kind of similar to how we say guys.
• 28:41
  Hey guys.
• 28:42
  Exactly, exactly.
• 28:43
  It was a gender neutral term, it did not always mean just men.
• 28:49
  Just genetically men.
• 28:51
  So that's point four.
• 28:53
  Point five goes back to the same thing.
• 28:58
  He says primary accountability, that men were primarily accountable for the first sin because
• 29:03
  God called Adam first when he was looking for them after they sinned.
• 29:09
  I don't know.
• 29:10
  I don't know.
• 29:11
  I just feel like so far it seems very desperate and I think that's how a lot of these arguments
• 29:18
  are.
• 29:19
  It's a desperate grab at power.
• 29:21
  Well, it has to be because there's really not a lot in the Bible pre the fall.
• 29:29
  So you really have to grab on to bits and pieces and I want to point out that if this
• 29:36
  was God's perfect plan, he wouldn't have made it so sketchy to figure out.
• 29:41
  He would have made it clear.
• 29:42
  Yeah, he would have said God is not the God of confusion.
• 29:45
  From the moment Eve was created, he would have said and Eve submit to him.
• 29:50
  But he didn't.
• 29:52
  That's not what happened.
• 29:54
  So you have to ask that question.
• 29:57
  Why would God make this so confusing for us to figure out?
• 30:02
  Then of course he goes into helper.
• 30:06
  Because you gotta always go there.
• 30:08
  He says the purpose of women.
• 30:11
  That's the title of this segment.
• 30:13
  Wonderful.
• 30:14
  The purpose of women.
• 30:16
  Eve was created as a helper for Adam, not Adam as a helper for Eve.
• 30:21
  Now we have gone into this before.
• 30:22
  We have done a whole podcast on the word helper, which translate as Ezzer.
• 30:32
  And I really encourage you to go back and listen to that one because we pull it apart
• 30:36
  in a really deep way.
• 30:38
  And I'm not going to do that right now.
• 30:40
  But helper, and he calls feminists out in this.
• 30:44
  He says that feminists have made a lot of the term helper.
• 30:48
  But it really just means that, you know, he says that she is subordinate to him.
• 30:53
  But then he goes on to say that she's equal.
• 30:57
  But also, God calls himself a helper.
• 31:01
  So it just doesn't hold up.
• 31:05
  So if you don't have time to go back and listen to that episode, Ezzer, the word used in the
• 31:11
  Bible for helper, God uses it to describe himself often throughout the Bible.
• 31:18
  He also uses it to describe warriors.
• 31:21
  He doesn't use it as a subordinate term.
• 31:23
  He uses it as a warrior term.
• 31:26
  And let's also talk about how, I don't know if this is a valid thought or not, but like
• 31:31
  the only time God calls something not good when he's creating it is when he was alone.
• 31:37
  So yeah, he created Eve.
• 31:39
  Maybe those men were just lazy and boring.
• 31:43
  No, but he created her as a partner, as someone to come alongside Adam and help him do the
• 31:50
  things that God called people to do.
• 31:54
  Not that God called Adam to do, but to become a partner and do all these things together.
• 32:00
  So the next one is the conflict.
• 32:03
  So essentially he says that a consequence of the fall is that it introduced conflict
• 32:09
  into husband-wife relationships, which, okay, valid point because the fall introduced sin.
• 32:19
  Conflict would go along with that because if we weren't sinful, we would all know God's
• 32:23
  perfect plan and just do that.
• 32:28
  So in, he quotes Genesis 3 16 where God tells Eve, your desire shall be for your husband
• 32:33
  and he shall rule over you.
• 32:35
  Now in my mind, that's God saying as part of this punishment, unfortunately comes patriarchy.
• 32:43
  Sucks.
• 32:46
  The punishment is not a good time.
• 32:48
  He says that what this meant is that instead of her just automatically going along with
• 32:59
  what her husband says, that her inner self is going to now want to disagree with her
• 33:06
  husband.
• 33:07
  The Olympics we have to do to make this make sense.
• 33:10
  So the desire will now be for her to interfere or distort the role of her husband, the role
• 33:16
  that God gave to her husband.
• 33:19
  Eve is now going to rebel against the God given authority of her husband and he's going
• 33:23
  to abuse that authority and rule poorly.
• 33:26
  Do they think that they're not abusing their role right now?
• 33:33
  Do they think they're not being butt heads now?
• 33:36
  I mean, he apparently thinks that, but instead of let's do some inner work right now.
• 33:45
  Does he look at himself and just think, oh no, I'm not doing that, but they're doing
• 33:49
  wrong?
• 33:50
  Yeah.
• 33:51
  Well, his whole article is about how women are doing wrong, not about how men are doing
• 33:54
  wrong.
• 33:55
  So, and I love when men get to tell women what God told them to do.
• 34:01
  Love that.
• 34:02
  Good times.
• 34:03
  So instead of it being a part of the fall, he's saying that it was the perfect plan in
• 34:10
  the first place and the part of the fall was that now she was going to be really annoying.
• 34:17
  That's really what it boils down to.
• 34:20
  Then he talks about the restoration, which is, so he says when Christ comes to earth,
• 34:27
  so when Christ is on the earth, that he would undo this, he calls it the marriage order,
• 34:40
  that essentially he, that Christ would say directly, men are no longer in authority over
• 34:45
  their wives, because then that would be like the fulfillment of God's plan.
• 34:51
  And he says that instead Christ tells women to overcome the sinful impulses that they
• 34:58
  have against their husband and tells the husband to stop ruling harshly over her.
• 35:05
  Again he doesn't provide any verses for this.
• 35:09
  I argue when Jesus died it talks about tearing the veil, so essentially it means that we
• 35:16
  have direct access to God, we don't have to go through a priest or something like that.
• 35:26
  That also kind of means I don't have to go through my husband to have access to God.
• 35:31
  Correct?
• 35:32
  I mean, I think so.
• 35:35
  Like I'm my own person, like I have a mind and a heart and a soul.
• 35:39
  And we're created in God's image just as much as any man.
• 35:45
  Now again, there are no verses here.
• 35:49
  There's no biblical reference, there's no historical reference, he's just talking.
• 35:53
  So take that as you will.
• 35:56
  And then he says, the mystery.
• 35:59
  Oh sweet mystery of life, at last I've found thee.
• 36:05
  Now we can call it the musical.
• 36:07
  OHH!
• 36:08
  I don't think I'm gonna get copyrighted for that.
• 36:14
  That's thoroughly modern Milly.
• 36:15
  I would be surprised if the thoroughly modern Milly people come after you.
• 36:19
  Although that is not the best of the place.
• 36:25
  No.
• 36:26
  But it has great music.
• 36:30
  up pretty good music. Although I didn't make it seem like it. So the last one is, now he
• 36:37
  goes into talking about Paul. So in Ephesians, which we, I'm hoping we'll get into a little
• 36:44
  bit in this one, but we might have to kind of... A part two? A part two. So Ephesians
• 36:50
  is really, it's a rough one for women and I think because it's mostly misunderstood.
• 36:57
  But here he's going to talk about Ephesians and he quotes Ephesians 5, 31 and 32 where
• 37:06
  he says that Paul shows the ultimate purpose in marriage is to mirror the relationship
• 37:11
  between Christ and the church. One of my least favorite analogies. So he quotes another...
• 37:21
  It's beautiful. He quotes another pastor here that is not a good guy. Like let's just stop
• 37:30
  quoting pastors who have been shamed and accused of things. Let's just stop that. But why? They're
• 37:39
  men. So the quote from another person says, although Adam and Eve did not know it, their
• 37:45
  relationship represented the relationship between Christ and the church. They were created
• 37:49
  to represent that relationship and that is what all marriages are supposed to do. In
• 37:54
  that relationship, Adam represents Christ and Eve represents the church. Now I just,
• 37:59
  I just need to make one point here. When Adam and Eve were on the earth, there had been
• 38:06
  no Christ. There had been no church. Quite literally. Something cannot be representative
• 38:16
  of something that doesn't exist. And also the churches we think about it is not what
• 38:25
  the church that the Bible is thinking about it. You know? Yeah, exactly. Makes sense.
• 38:30
  Do I know words? No, but wait, you're just, tell me if this is what you're saying. Cause
• 38:35
  I don't want to put words in your mouth. Please do. Make me sound more educated. Please. The
• 38:41
  church of today is not the church of Bible times. Yeah. See, I always knew you were intelligent.
• 38:50
  Thanks. So when Paul says, you know, when Paul is referencing the church ever, he's
• 38:58
  not represent, he's not referencing 2024 non-denominational slightly Baptist churches.
• 39:10
  He's just not where the preachers wear very expensive tennis shoes in denim jackets and
• 39:18
  have tattoos on their arms. Maybe one on their face. Maybe this is 2024. It is 2024. The
• 39:24
  year of post Malone. It's the year of post Malone. Last year was the year of the Barbie.
• 39:30
  Oh, right. I forgot about that. Was it, or was that this year? That was definitely not
• 39:34
  this year. Was it last year? Must've been. Yeah. Definitely not this year. Yeah, it was
• 39:41
  last year. But think about like, so saying that Adam and Eve are representative of Christ
• 39:47
  in the church. Let's just pull that one apart for a second. Cause I love to do that. That
• 39:51
  would be like saying that my great, great, great grandparents relationship is representative
• 40:00
  of mine. Does that make any sense? It can't be. My marriage didn't exist yet. And maybe
• 40:09
  it's too early for this argument too, but I love when people, men in particular talk
• 40:16
  about how it's representative of Christ in the church. That means that you are comparing
• 40:22
  yourself to Christ. I'm gonna tell you right now, you're not. You can't sanctify me. You
• 40:31
  can't forgive me of my sins. You're not. And let's be like, this verse we will go into
• 40:37
  more because the next article really, really dives into this one. I love how she talks
• 40:42
  about it, but do you want that role? Men out there, do you want to have to be Christ? You
• 40:52
  don't. As men and women, we should all strive to be as much like Jesus as we can. But you're
• 40:58
  not talking about being like Jesus. You're talking about the responsibility of Jesus.
• 41:03
  It's very different. If you're handing men the responsibility to be Jesus to their spouses.
• 41:19
  You're failing all around the world, baby. You can't succeed at that. You can't. It's
• 41:24
  impossible. And that would be God giving- For anyone, man or woman. Absolutely. That
• 41:30
  would be God giving you a task that you cannot, you have no ability to complete. You have
• 41:37
  no ability to fulfill that. Does that sound like a loving God? Not really. No. If God
• 41:46
  is automatically setting you up for failure, that doesn't sound like the God that's been
• 41:50
  described to me. That doesn't sound like the God of the Bible. So ask that question. Does
• 41:56
  it stand up? Does it make sense? If God is asking you to be Jesus for your wife and you
• 42:02
  can't possibly do it? Failure. Marriage turns into failure. Automatically. And obviously
• 42:09
  it would result in anger too. So abuse. I mean really. Because he can't fulfill that
• 42:17
  role. He has no ability to fulfill that role. And that would be very frustrating to think
• 42:26
  that God asks something of you that, well, bummer, guess you're gonna fail today. It's
• 42:33
  in conservative churches where this is preached often. And let me tell you, it is preached
• 42:38
  to death. Honestly, we were at a not super conservative church recently and they preached
• 42:46
  on it like five different times. In the span of a few months. Secretly really conservative.
• 42:53
  My gosh. But whenever it's brought up, it's very emotionally manipulative because it's
• 43:01
  like, oh, this is a beautiful representation of Christ and the church. And don't you just
• 43:09
  want to be that? Don't you want to be a representation of who Christ and the church was? Christ loved
• 43:16
  the church. He laid down his life for the church. And it's very emotionally manipulative.
• 43:21
  It's a power grab. It is. Because it makes you as a woman feel like, well yeah, I want
• 43:30
  to represent Christ to the world, but you don't get to represent Christ to the world.
• 43:35
  You have to represent, I guess, the church. I don't know what that looks like, but you
• 43:40
  don't get to represent Christ. Your husband does. So screw you. And what you have to say
• 43:46
  is not important. And you are not important. And let me just say, it can be a beautiful
• 43:53
  representation when you're the man. Because you get all the power and all the glory. You
• 44:04
  can say, I've heard countless men say this, it's not about power. It's about responsibility.
• 44:10
  There's so much responsibility laid on men and it's such a hard burden to bear. But that's
• 44:15
  the argument that I have heard a million times. Men have it really hard because they have
• 44:20
  all the responsibility of making all of the choices and controlling all of the situations.
• 44:28
  And it's insulting to women. Absolutely. When you say that, because you're saying, because
• 44:38
  you just get to go along with it. Nothing that you do really is important or really
• 44:42
  matters. Everything that I do matters though. And it's so hard to be me. And it's a beautiful
• 44:47
  representation. It's beautiful. I want them to describe why it's beautiful. Because I
• 44:53
  think it would be really difficult. Why is it, why do you think it's beautiful to me?
• 44:59
  Because I don't have to do anything. I'm not responsible for anything. I'm just leisure-ing.
• 45:08
  It can be beautiful when you're in control. Yeah. It's not beautiful sitting over here.
• 45:16
  When you tell a woman that has all kinds of leadership potential, that she now no longer
• 45:23
  gets to be a leader, and she has to be a follower, that all of her desires have to be her husband's
• 45:31
  desires. And help build up his dream. Absolutely. She doesn't get a voice or a say. She doesn't
• 45:39
  get to be a person anymore. So why would I want to get married? If that is what I truly
• 45:45
  believe God wants of women, no thank you. No thank you. And frankly, there's no loving
• 45:55
  God in that for women. Nope. For men, you can still look at that and say, oh, what a
• 46:00
  loving God. He put me in charge and I get to do whatever I want to do. And I'm sure
• 46:07
  that there will be arguments of, well, but he has to do it with the good of his family
• 46:11
  in mind. He has to do it with whatever. I would do it with the good of my family in
• 46:16
  mind. It's not like, woo, yay for you. You're thinking of other people. No, that's just
• 46:22
  called being a good person. Or a human. Having a family. Yeah. If I really believe that,
• 46:30
  if I really believed that God made me to be secondary, that God made people and said,
• 46:38
  I like this one better, he's going to be in charge. She's a little stupid. So I'm just
• 46:44
  going to, I'm going to let her cruise. But that's how so many conservative men treat
• 46:50
  women. They're stupid. They don't know what they're doing. They're weak. They can't possibly
• 46:57
  lead. They can't possibly make a decision. And we could honestly just keep talking about
• 47:03
  this all day. But I think it's important now as we're hitting kind of that almost 50 minute
• 47:09
  mark to talk about what we're going to talk about next week as we bounce into the second
• 47:14
  part of this really cool series. I think we're going to hold off on the next article until
• 47:23
  our next episode. So you guys get to wait for that. It's going to be really good. I'm
• 47:29
  very excited. I just, I feel like listen to this episode with an open heart and wait for
• 47:38
  the next one. Cause it's yeah, next week, you know, what we wanted to do with this episode
• 47:45
  was kind of pull apart a lot of the arguments, loosen it all up so that we can, we wanted
• 47:53
  to get loose so that next week we can go into some very heavily research based information
• 48:04
  and fill in some of those questions because there are a lot of questions. If God didn't
• 48:11
  mean for women to be solely submissive to their husbands, then why does he talk about
• 48:17
  why it is a V Ephesians have so many verses about it? Why does in Genesis he curse Eve
• 48:23
  with her desire being for her husband? So we wanted to pull all of this part and talk
• 48:30
  about it a little bit. And then next week we are going to read from an article and talk
• 48:35
  about an article. And I think it would be good for, we could put it up somewhere so
• 48:40
  people can look it up too. Oh yeah. Good idea. So the next episode is going to be, it's called
• 48:46
  Paul's main point in Ephesians 5 22 to 33. And it goes into that really difficult passage
• 48:55
  of Ephesians where it talks about submission. They call it the marital codes. And it's one
• 49:02
  that I just have always really struggled with. And it's a really amazing research based article
• 49:09
  all around that segment and what it really means instead of what we were told it meant.
• 49:14
  I feel like we say this all the time. It doesn't mean what we've been told that it means. Because
• 49:19
  we see it through our Western 2024 brains. But think about when this was written and what
• 49:28
  it meant back then. Right. And Paul, and we, I think we said this a couple weeks ago too,
• 49:35
  I did not like Paul for a long time. Paul could kiss our tushies. I struggled with Paul
• 49:41
  because it seems like he has so much to say about women and it just all seems really mean.
• 49:49
  And so I honestly would just kind of skip over those passages for a lot of my faith
• 49:53
  journey. And now as I am able to do a lot of research, look into so much of this and
• 50:00
  read great research based articles and books and things like that, I'm starting to see
• 50:07
  Paul in a whole new light and realize that like we have done bad things to Paul's writing.
• 50:15
  He was a great writer. He was a he made things a little bit confusing. He did make some things
• 50:22
  confusing. But I think they're confusing because we're looking at them from here. We're looking
• 50:27
  at them from 2000 years in the future. They probably weren't confusing back then. Probably
• 50:32
  not. And also we're looking at it through translation after translation. It's like a
• 50:39
  game of telephone. Imagine being there as Phoebe went and delivered Paul's letter to
• 50:46
  the Roman church. Preached it. Girl. Preach. You know how people can't tell our voices
• 50:56
  apart anyway? If we say things at the same time. Honestly, when I'm editing, I can't
• 51:01
  tell our voices apart sometimes. I have to look at which mic is which. I did label them
• 51:06
  this time. That's nice. It's helpful for later. All right. Well, we are super excited to chat
• 51:14
  with you again in a couple of weeks about submission even further. We'll see if maybe
• 51:19
  this becomes a three parter. So far it's just two. But it depends on how much rage we want
• 51:25
  to put in this musical. We have a great deal to say. And I want everybody to know that
• 51:30
  I've almost entirely drunken. Drunken? Drunk. A venti iced coffee from Starbucks during
• 51:40
  this. So if you haven't, we would love to have you follow us on our social media. We
• 51:47
  are on Instagram and Facebook. And Tikitalk. And Tikitalk. And YouTube. We're all over
• 51:53
  the place. We're Mr. Worldwide. So Instagram and Facebook is we are more dot podcast. And
• 52:04
  Tik Tok. It's stupid. I'm sure if you look up like we are more will pop up. But it's
• 52:09
  like we dot more dot. Nope. Try again. We dot are dot more four. There we go. We're
• 52:18
  actually quite funny on Tik Tok. I'll be honest with you. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm
• 52:23
  just going to have a laugh. But we're pretty funny. We're going to film some right now
• 52:31
  because we forgot to film them while we were recording. Oh, good call. Good for us. My
• 52:36
  phone's over there. I cannot reach it. Go go Gadget Art. Alright, we'll see you guys
• 52:42
  next week. Nope. Two weeks from now. I love you. Bye bye.