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317: Creating Neurodiverstiy-Affirming Schools, with Amanda Morin and Emily Kircher-Morris, LPC · Beautifully Complex

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: We need to make sure that our students have a
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: space where they feel comfortable, They feel like they have
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: a trusting relationship, they feel like they're not going to
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: be penalized for ways that they might show up that
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: maybe outside of the ways that they see their peers
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: showing up. And if they're thinking all of that through consistently, constantly,
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: if that's what's going through your head all the time,
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: you can't be doing multiplication tables because all of that
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: brain spaces are to being used wondering Am I doing
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: it well? Am I?
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: Okay? Here, welcome to Beautifully Complex, where we unpack what
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: it really means to parent neurodivergent kids with dignity and clarity.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: I'm Penny Williams, and I know firsthand how tough and
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: transformative this journey can be. Let's dive in and discover
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: how to raise regulated, resilient, beautifully complex kids together. Oh
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: and if you want more support, join our free community
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: at hub beautifully compt Life. Welcome back everybody to Beautifully Complex.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: I have two lovely ladies with me today who I
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: have known for a long time. We've had lots of conversations.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: They're always amazing and we're going to be talking about
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: creating neurodiversity firming schools, which is super important for all
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: of our kids, and I think all kids. But let's
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: start out, Amanda and Emily. Will you all start by
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: introducing yourselves. Let everybody know who you are and what
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: you do and about the book.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: Sure, I guess I will start. And it's always good
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: because we, you know, have all these female voices to
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: identify which one it is, right. So I'm Amanda Morin,
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: I'm an author, I'm a speaker, I'm a teacher. I'm
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: actually the incoming director of academic services at the at
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: Compass High School, which is solely for neurodivergent students, so
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: I'm excited about that. And I am a nerdivergent mother
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: to three neurodivergent kids, which I think is an important
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: part of this conversation as well.
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: And I'm Emily Kurger Morris. I am a licensed professional
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: counselor and I support neurodivergent kids, teens and adults in
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: my mental health practice primarily, but I used to be
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: a teacher. I also worked as a school counselor previously.
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: And I'm also neurodivergent and I have three neurodivergent kids
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: as well, but kind of blending that mental health and
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: therapeutic side of things along with kind of that background
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: and education is kind of the work that I do.
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: I'm also the host of the Neurodiversity Podcast and have
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: written a couple of different books. Most recently, Amanda and
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: I co authored Neurodiversity Affirming Schools Transforming Practices so all
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: students feel accepted and supported.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: Awesome, and that's what we're going to talk about here
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: today in this conversation. I think a great place to
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: start is just defining explain for us, describe what does
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: a neurodiversity affirming school look like? What does it feel like?
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: I love that you ask that in two different ways.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: I really do, because I don't think that I don't
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: think we've been asked that in two different ways before.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: And I'm going to start with the what it feels like,
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: because I think that's the piece that really sticks out
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: to me is it feels like everybody belongs right. And
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: I think that's an ambitious goal, but it's one that
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: we're really hoping to get to from all directions, you know, systemically,
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: classroom level, parentally, all of those kinds of things where
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: you can you the student, a kid can show up
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: in the classroom and feel like you can be the
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: version of yourself that you would be in any other way. Right,
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: so you belong you have the supports that you need
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: to be successful. There's no sort of moral judgment on
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: the way you show up your traits in any of
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: those neurodivergent sort of ways of being. I would start there, Emily,
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: what would you add.
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that the second part of your question
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: about what it looks like is it looks like students
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: who are learning in ways that work best for them.
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: It looks like inclusion where you don't almost have to
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: even think about it because it's just what happens on
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: a day to day basis, where people are part of
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: the community and given opportunities to belong in that community
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: as opposed to trying to change themselves to fit in.
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: And I feel like, for a really long time, for
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: many reasons, neurodivergent kids, even if they've been part of
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: the classroom setting, that doesn't necessarily mean that they feel
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: like they have belonged there. So often, so many of
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: the traits that are near a divergent students show or experience.
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: Often they're viewed as disciplinary issues when really they're not.
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: They're often held perhaps to standards that are perhaps too
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: high or perhaps too low for them in particular areas,
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  Speaker 3: and that can vary even based on the individual student.
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: And so when we create a neurodiversity affirming environment, like
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: Amanda said, it creates a space where everybody belongs. And
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  Speaker 3: I think the other thing that I would just mention
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  Speaker 3: here too is it's not always just about the students.
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  Speaker 3: It's also about the teachers, because there are neurodivergent educators
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  Speaker 3: as well who also sometimes need a space where they
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: can be authentically themselves.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what stood out to me from both of you
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: as who both use the word belonging and I was
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: hoping we could talk a little bit deeper about that.
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: What are the mental health emotional health benefits of having
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: a sense of belonging? And then on the flip side,
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: what is the risk when a kid doesn't feel like
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: they belong.
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: So Brenne Brown has talked about this a few different places,
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: and I've kind of really latched onto it. I really
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: like how she describes the differences between fitting in and belonging.
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: And so when she talks about belonging, it really is
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: the opposite of fitting in. Fitting in, like I mentioned earlier,
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  Speaker 3: is kind of changing yourself and belonging as being part
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: of a community. One of the main factors that research
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: shows contributes to a sense of belonging is feeling like
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: you have a voice in that community, that you have
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  Speaker 3: something to offer, that you are a part of the process.
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: And so often the things that our neurodivergent students' experience
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: or need or whatever, they might actually not have the
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: opportunity to contribute, or might actively be told not to
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: contribute those things. Maybe they have a special interest, or
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: maybe they have a you know, a skill or a
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: need or whatever, and it's like no, no, keep that
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: on the outside. And so having that sense of belonging
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: though it influences a sense of self efficacy, it influences
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: a sense of autonomy, and all of those things are
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: part of the virtuous cycle towards achievement and success. And
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: so we really want to make sure that those things
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: are instilled in our classrooms and part of the structure
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: so that everybody has the opportunity to participate that lay.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: And I would add that belonging in that way I mean,
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: Emily just said that beautifully. And the only thing I
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: would add to that is when we talk about belonging,
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: I think we often think about when we're talking about classrooms,
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: we often think about belonging being, you know, keeping up
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: with the work, keeping up with the students, keeping up
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: with all of those things. But for me, belonging also
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: means there are other ways you can contribute, right. It
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: doesn't have to be about academic achievement. You know, you
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: don't have to be like the best student to belong
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: in a classroom that you belong in the entire sort
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: of ecosystem of the school. Are there clubs that you
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: feel comfortable in? Are there ways you can show up
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: on the playground That don't mean you have to conform
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: to like four square or I don't know what kids
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: do on the playground anymore.
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: That was not right.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: You don't have to show up the way people expect
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: that it looks, but you still have a space there. Right,
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: If you want to walk laps around the playground during recess,
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: because that's how you sort of regulate your system, you
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: still belong because you have somebody who's going to walk
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: lapse with you, or something like that you know, So
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: I just think it's important to make clear belonging isn't
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: just about achieving the academic goals. It's about being welcomed
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: into all of the spaces in a school as well.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: It's really about the social emotional aspect of school, right,
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: which often we don't think about. We think about the academics.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: We think about following the rules, right, your behavior, things
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  Speaker 2: like that, and that social emotional piece is really very crucial, right.
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you mentioned the social and emotional piece, and
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: I think it gets lost of a shuffle sometimes when
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: we think about academics. But the thing that you have
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: to remember is that, like, let's look at the long
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: term for our students, the messages that they receive and
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: the things that they internalize about themselves as students are
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: the things that they will carry with them through their lives.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: I know that's true for me, it's probably true for
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: both of you and everybody who's listening. And sometimes if
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: there's something you have to unlearn there, that's a lot
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: to try to unlearn those things. But if you feel
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: like you belove, if you feel like you have a voice,
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: if you feel like you can be successful, that puts
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: you on a trajectory as an adult to be able
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: to accomplish a lot of things that you may not
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: have even really thought about or that you wouldn't have
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: even attempted if you didn't have that experience of success
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: and whatever success means for each individual student, that might
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: also look different for different kids. You can't have that actualization,
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: that self actualization. I mean, if we think about like
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: Maslow right and that self actualization that at that top
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: of that pyramid, like you're not going to get there
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: without all of those social and emotional pieces also in playing.
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: And also when we have kids who don't feel comfortable
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: in social emotional you know, space, like if they don't
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: feel like they belong, if they don't feel like they
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: can express themselves in a way that is authentic to them,
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  Speaker 1: they're hyper vigilant, they're worried about all of the things
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: that are going on and how people are going to
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: react to them. They're not able to be available for learning.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: And I think that's something that I stress over and
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: over again when I talk to parents, when I talk
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: to teachers, is we need to make sure that our
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: students have a space where they feel comfortable, they feel
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: like they have a trusting relationship. They feel like they're
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: not going to be you know, penalized for ways that
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: they might show up that maybe outside of the ways
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: that they see their peers showing up. And if they're
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: thinking all of that through consistently, constantly, if that's what's
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: going through your head all the time, you can't be
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: doing multiplication tables because all of that brain spaces aready
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: being used wondering am I doing it?
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: Well?
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: Am I okay?
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: Here?
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: So you know, I think that social emotional piece we
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: can't skip over it because when we do skip over it,
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: we're actually skipping over the foundation of how students are
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: able to learn.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up. Availability to
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: learn was something that I wish I had learned about
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: a lot sooner in my own kid's school journey, because
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: the more that he was dysregulated, the more that he
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: was hyper vigilant, as you mentioned, the more that he
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: didn't feel safe, he was not physiologically available to learn. Right,
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: that frontal lobe is inaccessible because the amigdala is sounding
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: the alarm. And so you know, sometimes when we stick
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: to these school rules of you know, butts and seats, right,
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: they have to be there. Well, if they're there but
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: they don't feel safe, they're not learning, what's the point
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: of that, right, Like, we have to focus on helping
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: kids feel safe in the classroom, in the environment, socially, emotionally, physically, right,
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: all the things in order for them to have that availability,
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: that opportunity, right, the opportunity to learn. That's part of
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: leveling that playing field. Yeah.
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: I was thinking as you guys were talking about development
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: and trauma, developmental trauma, and the fact that kids pick
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: up a great deal of their self worth through their
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: school experiences, and I was hoping that you all could
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: talk a little bit about that and how we create
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: environments again that are neurodiversity affirming that help kids to say, Okay,
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: I don't look the same, I don't do things the
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: same way. I'm different, but I still have value. I
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: still am building some confidence and beyond what I would
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: think of is beyond belonging. Does that make sense? Yeah?
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And for me it's you know, and I have value, right,
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: It's the not in spite of it's because of this,
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: I have value. A lot of our neurodivergent kids bring
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: such unique perspectives into the classroom, right, Yeah, they bring
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: such unique perspectives into life that I think part of
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: what matters when we're thinking about how do we make
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: neurodiversity of firming environments is making space for the fact
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: that it may not look like the way you expect
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: it to. Whatever it is, you know, the explaining the
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: math problem may look like the way you expect it to.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: The approach to writing may not look like you expected to.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: Any of those kinds of things may look different. I
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: had another train of thought that I lost speaking of
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: a neurodivergen smum Braine just went and a whole swing there.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: But I think part of the thing that I would
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: say is giving kids the opportunity to show what they know,
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: not just in narrow ways.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: So like and I don't even just mean like the
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: UDL component. I don't even just mean like multimodal. I mean,
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: like Emily mentioned special interest. For example, I was working
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: with a student the other day who was frustrated about
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: how other kids were sort of reacting to his interest
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: in Pokemon, right, and Pokemon is his thing, And so
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: I had him teach me all about Pokemon. I wanted
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: to understand all of the things that were frustrating him
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: that the other kids didn't know, and he came up
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: with like this graphic and this poster and all these things,
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: and he brought it into the school and he taught
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: his friends about it, and now it's working better.
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: So leaning in to the things that our kids know
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: and giving them an opportunity to really shine, you know,
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: it really contributes to self worth is acknowledging that you
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: have things that you know that you can teach other
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: people about too.
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: Just building on what Amanda was saying about how things
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: might look different than what you expect. I think the
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: other part of that really is about recognizing that friendships
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: might look different, the drive to interact socially might look different.
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: And a big part of what a narratives do from
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: the school offers is the opportunity. Again, if we're allowing
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: people to be authentically themselves, we need to allow that.
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: So sometimes I'll hear parents or teachers who will make
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: statements like, well, they go out to recess and all
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: they want to do is bring their book outside to
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: recess with them, and they just want to sit there
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: and read and they don't want to interact. But they
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: really need the social skills, you know, they really need
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: to interact with their peers. And if we're honoring somebody's
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: experience and preferences, the bottom line is they're getting plenty
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: of social experience in the classroom. There's a lot of
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: group work that we do in school, like, there's a
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: lot of opportunities just for those general interactions. And if,
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: for example, that is that student's recess, should they be
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: allowed to read a book? I mean, I believe that
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: they should, that we should give them that option. And
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: I always put a caveat whenever I talk about this
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: and say, if for example, that student is actually reading
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: the book because they're anxious about interacting even though they
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: want to interact, like, that's different. We support that differently.
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: But we really need to be sure that we're listening
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: to what kids are saying and understanding what they really
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: want and need for themselves, again, as opposed to doing
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: anything that is just prescriptive, which I think is the
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: track we fall into.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: And I think there's another real benefit, for lack of
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: a better word at the moment, to neudiversity of earming
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: schools in that we are not traumatizing neudivergent kids while
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: they're at school, which is a very real thing.
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: I don't throw around the word trauma lately, but my
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: own kid was certainly traumatized at school. And I think,
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: you know, doctor Bruce Perry talked about in his book
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: that any marginalized individual is going to have traumatic experiences.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: And to compound that, we're talking about traumatic experiences during development,
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: which can have lifelong negative impacts, right, and so one
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: of the crucial benefit here in my mind, is that
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: we are creating environments where kids are not going to
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: experience trauma. Not that we can say never or anything
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: like that, right, but in general, it's going at a
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: more affirming, accepting you belong here. Environment is going to
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: feel better, feel safer, and be less traumatic during that development,
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: which is so important.
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: Yes, and I agree, and I'm thinking about my own
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: children and their experiences, and yeah, one of my children
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: had some very traumatic experiences at the beginning of his
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: school years, and you know, I know those things stick
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: with him. And I know that, you know, as a
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: nerdivergent not going through school when people recognize it, especially
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: with women females, I have things that I remember from
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: years and years and years ago that stick with me.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: I think one of the things that I love about
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: nerd diversity affirming environments is that we're taking away this shame, right,
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: And I think a lot of trauma comes from the
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: shame of being who you are because other people don't
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: accept it or believe it, or acknowledge it, or any
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: of those kinds of things. So really, on a very
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: nitty gritty level, part of a neurodiversity affirming school is
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: naming things the way they are right, Naming you know,
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: instead of euphemisms that you might use like this you
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: know this kid is having behavior problems, or this kid
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: said you know is really disruptive or whatever those kinds
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: of things, are naming it like this kid is having
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: difficulty regulating their emotions, this kid is having a big
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: reaction to something and saying that out loud, Saying that happens,
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: like recognizing it happens to us as teachers, right, it
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: happens to us as humans. I have big reactions all
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: the time because life is something to react to, right,
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: But being able to recognize it, acknowledge it, give name
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: to it, provide support and coping mechanisms. It takes the
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: shame out of the fact that like there shouldn't be
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: anything to be ashamed of, right, there just is. There's
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: nothing to be ashamed of. And a lot of times,
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: you know, Emily and I have talked about this with
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: each other, with other people. Is we put moral judgments
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: on those kinds of things, right, we put moral judgments
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: on I don't love the words good and bad, right,
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: but like good behavior, bad behavior, you know, motivation and
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: all of those kinds of things. When we take the
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: moral judgment away, kids don't feel the weight of being
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: you know, quote unquote wrong in our spaces because they're not.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: They're just showing up the way they are, and we
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: need to understand that the support is what they need
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: more than the lecture or the whatever comes next.
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: What a man I was just saying reminded me of
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: one of my favorite quotes. It's from a psychologist, Alfred Adler,
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: who developed Adlerian therapy specifically, and the quote is that
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: all of human life is a striving for perfection. And
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: the key word in that sentence is not perfection, is striving.
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: And it's about the fact that we seem to forget
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: sometimes in the classroom or even at home as parents,
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: that kids want to be successful. That is part of
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: just being human. Being human is about wanting growth, wanting progress,
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: wanting momentum that doesn't stop. It doesn't stop with age,
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: it doesn't stop once you reach a certain point in
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: your life, like, Oh, I've achieved the pinnacle and now
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: I'm done. Like that just doesn't happen. But sometimes when
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: we look at kids, somehow we interpret it differently because
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: sometimes their goals, or their motivations, or the things that
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: they feel like they can make progress with are not
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: aligned with what society has decided are the things that
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: they should be making progress toward. But when we take
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: a step back and work to align those things, the
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: trauma occurs. When we are constantly in this push and
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: pull between your needs and your wants and my needs
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: and my wants, and you have to comply with what
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: I'm telling you to, regardless of the physiological reaction you have,
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: the emotional reaction that you have, what your actual needs are,
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: And it gets to this point where it's the suppression
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: of that innate need that those kids have. And so
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: we want to give them the opportunity to find ways
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: to integrate those pieces, because they do want to be successful.
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: But the way that schools are currently set up doesn't
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: allow for that flexibility as much as it as it could,
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: and it should.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: Use the word flexibility, right, A big one. Yeah, it's
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: a big one. It is a key factor or hate
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: in being flexible.
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: Here's something I want to say, yeah about the flexibility
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: piece though, is I was going to say I love
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: the fact. I don't love the fact I laugh at
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: the fact that one of the biggest complaints that people
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: have about neurodivergent folks is that they are not flexible
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: enough by insisting that they have to do it our way,
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: you know, or whatever that way is. Yeah, And it's like,
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: oh wait, wait, am I being flexible? You know? And
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: I just think sometimes there's so little insight because people
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: don't reflect on those things. They don't listen to what
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: our kids are saying, and they'll tell us what's working
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: and what's not. And I'm not saying that there aren't
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: times when kids need to build skills and develop things
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: and be more like that is true for sure, but
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: it's not either or. It's a both. And and I
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: think that that's a shift that we really need to
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: make and.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: We have to show up flexible, yeah, in order to
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: help kids develop flexible. Like, one of my favorite Ross
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: Green quotes is show me an inflexible kid, I'll show
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: you an equally inflexible adult.
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: I don't know if I again, Yeah, it's in one
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: of the books.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's like, oh duh, Like we get we
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: get on on a pilot, we get stuck there. We
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: we're wired to responding kind right, So if somebody comes
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: at us within flexibility, our pickles are going to go
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: up and we're going to try to dig in and
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: not be flexible either, right, and that power struggle ensues
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: when really, if we could just notice that they're giving
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: us a signal that they also need us to be flexible,
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: that they need some flexibility, right, it could change things.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: But I think the question why matters so much? Right
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: we ask I think as educators, you know, asking ourselves yourselves,
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: why why do I need it to be that way?
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: Is there an actually answer? And I asked myself that
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: as a parent, just to be like really, frank, Like,
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: I'll say something and I'll and then I'll be like,
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: oh does that actually matter? Why do I need that
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: to be? You know? And then I have to backtrack
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: a little bit and be like you know, actually not
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: important kind of thing. That's something that our kids need
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: to see too, is our ability to say ooh, actually
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: I thought about this again and I changed my mind
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: and it really doesn't matter, or we can do it differently.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: You know. One of the most striking things a kid
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: has said to me lately was just and this kid
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: was having some strife with a teacher said to me,
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: who has beef with a fifteen year old? And I
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: was like, that was the best thing I'd heard, because
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: I was like, you're not wrong there, right, what adult
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: has beef with a fifteen year old? And I thought,
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: what an insightful thing for this kid to say. Also
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: just hilarious, right, it was a hilarious thing to say,
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: but super insightful. And I said, well, I'm sure you
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: can't say that to the teacher, but there are other ways.
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: Let's work on ways that you could say, you know,
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: how do we make this work better? What's going on here?
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: But it's true, like I think, remembering that as adults,
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: that doesn't mean we can't work with the students that
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: we have. We can't respect their opinions and their thoughts
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: and hear them out right, And that's part of the
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: flexibility is hearing them out. And I you know, I've
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: been a teacher for more years than i'd like to
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: be able to say, because it's been a long time,
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: and I know that there have been plenty of times
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: where I've just been like, well, this, we have to
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: do it this way. And I look back on the
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: years that I was like that, and I think, why
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: what was that about? That wasn't about the students in
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: my classroom. It was about me and my own feeling
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: of self efficacy, my own feeling of how the other
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: teachers around me were going to judge what happened if
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: I made things a little more flexible. Right, So being
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: able to show up and say we can have conversations
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: is really a big part of being nertivousy affirming as
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: well is making sure to hear people out. And sometimes
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: in the end you're going to be like, I heard
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: your argument, and I still don't agree with you, and
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: I still need you to do this paper because it
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: matters towards your grade. But let's think about are there
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: other places you can do it? Are there other ways
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: you can do it? Do you need to break it
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: up into two chunks like those kinds of things. But
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: it's just I don't know. I just keep thinking about
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: how many times I have said because and realizing because
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: it's the answer that I would not want to hear.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: So you know, rethinking that myself.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was just thinking about math as you were
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: talking about that, and all the struggles were showing your
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: work and math over the years. Right, my kid did
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: not understand why if he could do it in his
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: head and get the right answer, that he had to
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: write it down and then he would get in trouble
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: for not writing it down right. And there was this
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: friction that was just caused by both people digging in
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: and not seeing the other person's perspective. And you know,
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: he had a more difficult time with seeing that other
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: perspective or understanding that there are other reasons beyond getting
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: the right answer that he was being asked to do
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: these things, you know, but getting creative and maybe sometimes
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: making exceptions. Right, is it really that important to show
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: your work when you got the right answer, just saying
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: and put that out there in the world for the
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: next set of kids.
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: Right, So I have two thoughts. So one is directly
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: related to that, and it is interesting to think about
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: and I feel like if you can effectively explain why
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: the kids need to show their work, because the problem
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: if you don't show your work. Actually, I was listening
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: to a really great podcast the other day and I'm
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: not going to remember what podcast it was because I
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: listened to all of them. Yeah, but they were actually
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: talking about AI and education and about how teachers kind
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: of need to recognize the fact that I think this
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: was actually the asraclined podcast if anyone wants to go
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: back and listen to it at some point whenever this
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: is released. And it was with somebody and I'm not
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: going to a rehear name, but she was from the
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: Brookings Institute specifically, and they were talking about how if
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: you're using AI in education, you have to be able
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: to explain how you used it right, and the value
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: to that is like, if I, as a teacher don't
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: have the feedback about how you reached your response, I
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: can't then guide you. So I do feel like most
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: kids that I've worked with really it's like you can
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: help them understand, but you have to be able to
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: explain it and get them on board with that. But
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: also do they have to show their work on every
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: single problem? Like if they can show you what their
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: thought process is, and maybe they can't do it in writing,
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: maybe they need to speak it to you, like there's
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: other ways to do that. So there is value to
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: understanding that process, whatever it might be as an educator,
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: because without that feedback, I can't effectively teach you, you know,
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: because there can be some mistakes that might happen there.
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: And so again I'm kind of getting a little bit
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: off track, but I think again it goes back to
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: that flexibility on both sides, but also just that honoring
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: autonomy and bringing kids into the process. It's not you
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: have to do it because I said so, you have
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: to do it because this is how this happens here,
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: and I need to get a little bit of buy
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: in from you on some level to kind of figure
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: that out. The other thing I was just going to mention,
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: this is kind of going off on a totally other
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: tangent because it was something I thought of earlier. But
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: talking about how teachers show up in the classroom is
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: so important, and I've actually been reflecting on this quite
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: a bit lately. I was thinking about how when I
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: first started teaching, we talk about the trauma that neurodivergent
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: people have just through their own experiences. Growing up. I
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: remember that there were times that I had students in
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: my classroom when I was not only not my best self,
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: but where basically I was almost imitating the things that
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: had happened to me because I didn't have an alternative
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: right and even though I knew perhaps that they didn't
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: work at that time, I didn't know what to do instead.
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: But somehow in my brain I had almost internalized this
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: idea that like, well, somebody did this, so it must
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: have been the right way to do it, and even
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: though it didn't work on me, there must have been
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: something wrong with me. So then and then I There
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: are just a couple of these instances that I think
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: about in my mind where I remember having conversations with
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: students in ways that conversations had been had with me,
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: and seeing those students have the same reactions that I had,
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: and realized having this realization like, oh, yeah, that's just bad.
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: That's just a bad way to handle that. That wasn't
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: a me problem when I was a kid. That was
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: a problem with how that situation was handled. But my
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: point in that is, like every teacher who comes in
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: carries with them all of their past experiences from when
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: they were a student, from when they were a child,
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: with their parents, you know, whatever, other things that they've experienced,
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: and it really takes a lot of self reflection and
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: insight to recognize how those things influence our current actions
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: and behaviors. And I don't think in education training we
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: focus on this at all. So I have two masters,
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: you know, one in education, one in counseling specifically, but
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: on the psychological side of things, on the mental health
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: side of things, we actually talk quite a bit about
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: how our own experiences influence how we show up as
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: a therapist in the mental health setting, and we talk
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: about transference and counter transference in how we have to
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: be able to regulate our own emotions in order to
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: help our clients regulate their emotions. And I think that
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: that's really something that educators need more support towards and
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: understanding in order to implement, because you can't effectively meet
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: the needs of all of the diverse learners in your
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: classroom if you're just repeating the patterns of things you've
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: experienced in your past without any insight into why you're
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: doing those things.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: And one of the chapters that we wrote in the
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: book is all about building emotionally competent classrooms, And the
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: focus of that chapter is less about building emotionally competent
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: skills in your students and more about reflecting on what you,
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: as a teacher, need to build for social and emotional
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: skills to be emotionally competent in yourself. Right, Because the
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: research shows that students who have emotionally competent and self
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: aware teachers are learning those skills because they're seeing them
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: happening in the classroom. Right, They achieve a better rate
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: of success, whatever that success looks like, because they have
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: teachers who are self aware, who are able to self monitor,
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: who are able to do all these things. And I
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: say it like it's easy. It's not easy, period. It's
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: not easy. Right. That goes back to the striving component
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: of being human. But you know, to Emily's point, that's
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: not something I learned when I was learning how to
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: become an educator. It's something I've learned through being an
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: adult who is finding my way through life. It's actually
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: something that I've learned more as a parent to neurodivergent
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: kids than I learned anywhere else in my life.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I look back and I got my first year teaching.
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: I always laugh and like I was twenty one years old.
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: My friends alone was not fully developed. It was a
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: bad idea. I don't know who thought it was a
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: good idea to put me in front of a classroom.
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: But I also reflect and go there were parents who
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: were asking me advice about things. I didn't have kids.
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: They had no clue that was terrible. They should not
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: listen to anything I said. But there is that process.
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: And I'm not saying that every teacher has to have
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: their children or whatever. I mean. I'm really just reflecting
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: on the fact that for me and I have three kids,
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: but there's a you know, Amanda kind of has the same,
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: but there's a gap. Right, My oldest is seventeen, my
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: middle is fifteen, and then my youngest is ten, and
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: I parent that ten year old so much differently than
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: I do those older too, because I've just learned more
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: about myself than about my kids and about all of
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: these different things. And so I think that it's okay
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: for teachers to walk into the classroom and realize that
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: that's just the beginning of that process and of that growth.
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: And it's okay to change. You don't have to have
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: it all figured out. I think that's the same thing
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: that parents can recognize for themselves as well.
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: I smile when Emile says that my children are far
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: part of an issue and the older two are young
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: adults actually children anymore. You're twenty nine, twenty two, and
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: fifteen are my kids ages at this point. And the
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: older two consistently complain at how good a parent the
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: younger one gets, and I'm like, I'm sorry, I didn't
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: know what I was doing as much.
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: As I do it with great idea.
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: And also so you are my learning experience to make
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: me a better parent for your your sibling here. But
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: you know, it is hard. It is hard, and I
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: think it really stresses the importance of teachers finding mentors too.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: I don't know that that's something that's always built into systems,
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: and I think having teacher mentors where you can have
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: somebody who's been doing it a little bit longer. I
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: know that in most cases, you when you are starting out,
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: you have somebody who is sort of paired up with you,
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: but not always like continuing to have mentors, continuing to
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: have somebody who can say I don't know if I
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: did this correctly. I don't know if you have another idea, right,
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: And that requires some vulnerability on the part of a
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: teacher to be able to say like, I don't know
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: if I did this well and I need help, right,
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: and none of us like to ask for help. Well,
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: actually I don't know. I speak for me. I think
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: I just brought my own stuff to that. I don't
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: like asking for help. If you, listener, don't like asking
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: for help, I would encourage you to realize that it's okay.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: We encourage our kids to ask for help, and I
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: think as parents and as educators, we also need to
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: ask for help when we feel stuck in a situation.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: M h. And really, what we're talking about here's growth mindset. Yeah,
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: every time you all have an answer to something, and
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: then all this conversation, I'm thinking, we're just asking for
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: growth mindset. We're asking for growth mindset for yourself as
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: an educator, for yourself as a parent, for asking for it,
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: to teach our kids to have a growth mindset. Right,
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: that that is more valuable, and with that also comes
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: out flexibility right to say, Okay, we may not be
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: at our best right now. Yeah, we're growing, we're learning,
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: we're always learning. Yeah. I mean my two kids are
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: young adults. I don't have the third straggler, And now
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: I'm like, well, I wish I could start over now
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: with what I know now, and they would have had
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: a totally different childhood and it would probably be better
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: in a lot of ways, right, because I just have
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: more experience and knowledge and all the things. And that's
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: not reality, right, And so we don't blame and shame ourselves.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: We just say growth mindset, right.
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: Well, but they're benefiting from that now, right, And I
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: say that to you because I know that we have
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: children around the same age. They're benefiting from that now
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: because we can have those conversations with them as they
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: are young adults, because that relationship changes a little bit,
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: and to be able to say, like, you know, what
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: I wish i'd done differently when you were younger. It
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: doesn't change how we did it, but it can change
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: how they think about it a little bit.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it can change. Maybe they're narrative about it, right
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: if we revisit it in a different person. Yeah, for sure.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: We are unfortunately out of time that went by in
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: the blink of an eye, and I want to make
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: sure that we tell everybody where they can get the
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: book and also where they can find each of you
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: online so that they can learn more from you.
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: You can order the book pretty much anywhere, Amazon, Target,
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: Indie Bound, wherever you want to find it, Barnes and Noble,
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: all the places. And you can check out the Neurodiversity
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: Podcast anywhere that you listen to podcasts, and you can
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: learn more about the work that Amanda and I do
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: on our website Neurodiversityfirmingschools dot com. We've got info there
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: about a limited series podcasts that we did, our speaking courses,
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: all of those great things adults, Amanda.
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: I would put in another note about the podcast. So
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: we did a limited run series called Creating Nerdiversity Affirming
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: Schools Podcast, which aligns with the book. But you don't
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: have to have read the book to benefit from the
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: conversations and the ideas too. So you know, if you're
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: somebody who learns in a different way, we'd encourage you to,
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: you know, check out the podcast and see if it
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: catches your your at tension and your interest and it
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: gives you new ways to think about things.
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: I love that and the book is for educators? Is
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: it also for parents?
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: We've had a lot of parents who feeld us. They're
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: using it as a tool to learn and to advocate
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: within the systems that their students are in.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: Love that, and I just am so thankful for the
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: work that you're doing, what you're putting out there to
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: change the way that we educate kids so that kids
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: like our own have an opportunity, not like I don't
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: even put emphasis on academic performance. I just want them
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: to have the opportunity to feel good about themselves, to
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: feel confident and competent. And I think you know, this
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: work that you're doing is such a great way to
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: start transforming the way that we think about neurodivergent students.
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: And I'm so thankful for that. I appreciate you being
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: here too, and sharing more of your time and more
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: of your wisdom with the audience here. It's so so valuable.
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Thanks Benny. I will see everybody next time.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: Take good care. I see you. You're doing hard and
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: meaningful work, and you don't have to do it alone.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: If you found this episode helpful, share it with someone
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: who needs it and leave a quick review so others
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: can find this support too. When you're ready for next steps,
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: the Regulated Kids Project is here with the tools, coaching,
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: and community to help you raise a more regulated, resilient child.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: Get more info at regulated kids dot com.