Latest / Future Christian / TikTok Pastor: Bethany Peerbolte is Reimagining Church Online

Transcript

TikTok Pastor: Bethany Peerbolte is Reimagining Church Online · Future Christian

• 0:07
  >> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
• 0:10
  source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
• 0:12
  the 21st century. At the Future Christian
• 0:16
  Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
• 0:19
  and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
• 0:21
  wisdom to help you and your community of faith
• 0:24
  walk boldly into the future. Whether
• 0:27
  you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
• 0:30
  of your faith community, this podcast is
• 0:33
  designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
• 0:36
  you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
• 0:39
  And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
• 0:44
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
• 0:47
  Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes the Reverend
• 0:50
  Bethany Peerbolte to the podcast.
• 0:53
  Bethany is the founding pastor of our
• 0:55
  Tapestry. This community meets
• 0:58
  entirely in digital spaces and gathers
• 1:01
  to declutter faith from abuse of
• 1:03
  theology. She also creates Christian content
• 1:06
  on TikTok, seeking to meet younger
• 1:09
  generations where they scroll the
• 1:12
  stories. Bethany hears from her
• 1:14
  286,000 plus
• 1:17
  followers about how churches have treated them
• 1:20
  inspires her ministry. The zip
• 1:23
  code someone lives in should not decide what kind of God
• 1:26
  they know. Everyone deserves access to
• 1:29
  the radical love of God. You can
• 1:31
  follow RevBethany on
• 1:34
  TikTok, Instagram and YouTube and
• 1:37
  learn more at Alo Tapestry
• 1:40
  online. A, uh, reminder, before we
• 1:43
  start today's conversation, please take a
• 1:45
  moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review
• 1:48
  and share Future Christian with a friend.
• 1:51
  Connect with Loren, Martha and Future
• 1:54
  Christian on Instagram.
• 1:56
  >> Loren: Future.
• 1:56
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Shoot us an email at, uh, laurensonatemudiapro
• 1:58
  uh.com
• 2:01
  with comments, questions, or ideas for future
• 2:04
  episodes. We appreciate your voice
• 2:07
  in how we faithfully discern the future of the
• 2:10
  church.
• 2:19
  >> Loren: Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren
• 2:22
  Richmond Jr. And today I'm pleased to be
• 2:25
  welcoming Reverend Bethany Peerbolte. Hello, and,
• 2:27
  um, welcome to the show.
• 2:29
  >> Bethany: Thanks for having me. I'm excited to chat.
• 2:31
  >> Loren: Yeah, thank you. Thanks for being here. Anything else you want
• 2:34
  listeners to know about you?
• 2:37
  >> Bethany: You know, with the Internet, everything they need to know
• 2:40
  is out there. So follow me on any of the social
• 2:42
  medias. Uh, with the ban happening,
• 2:45
  I'm literally everywhere now. So, uh, just
• 2:48
  trying to figure out where the next step is. And, um,
• 2:51
  yeah, just follow me and check me out, see what I'm all
• 2:53
  about.
• 2:54
  >> Loren: Okay, we'll get to that. We'll get to the ban here coming up.
• 2:57
  So I want to hear your insights there, your thoughts,
• 2:59
  share, if you would. Just come out, your faith background and your faith
• 3:02
  journey and what that looks like today.
• 3:05
  >> Bethany: Yeah, so I grew up in Missouri City Lutheran. Um,
• 3:08
  so a conservative church, um,
• 3:11
  went to college, was planning on not going to church anymore because
• 3:14
  it really wasn't something, you know, whatever. But,
• 3:17
  um, it was a space. I knew I could find friends that had the same
• 3:20
  values. And there was a church that had a 7pm
• 3:23
  on Sunday. They'd pick me up from the dorm and give me dinner.
• 3:26
  And the dorms didn't have dinner on Sundays. So I was
• 3:29
  like, okay, I guess I'll keep going to church if they're going to feed me and pick
• 3:31
  me up and whatever. And, um, an
• 3:34
  amazing pastor, uh, Pastor David
• 3:37
  Dressel just, uh, kind of understood students and
• 3:39
  showed me like, what a pastor can be.
• 3:42
  Um, gave me leadership roles. And when
• 3:45
  I went back home, um, I was leading
• 3:48
  youth group because I loved having a peer group
• 3:51
  and fell, um, in love with teaching
• 3:54
  scripture. Um, and so I found a
• 3:57
  PCSA church and was their youth, youth
• 3:59
  person. Um, met my first female pastor when I
• 4:02
  was 24 and went to seminary. She was
• 4:05
  like, you should do this full time. And I was like, okay.
• 4:08
  Um, yeah. So it's just kind of been
• 4:11
  following like the next couple of steps
• 4:14
  that the Spirit has put me on.
• 4:16
  >> Loren: That's awesome. That's awesome. A really good pastor
• 4:19
  really is so helpful, right, for, for uh,
• 4:22
  formation and growth and encouragement and, and
• 4:26
  yeah. Awesome.
• 4:27
  What are some spiritual practices, you know, one or more you're
• 4:30
  willing to share, you find meaningful?
• 4:33
  >> Bethany: Yeah. Um, so I just
• 4:36
  moved. I, uh, used to do this thing where when it rained,
• 4:39
  I have this like metallic, um, drum they
• 4:42
  call, I think up like a panda drum. It's got different notes on it
• 4:45
  and put it out in the rain and like, just let the rain
• 4:48
  play music. Um, but now I don't have a patio,
• 4:51
  so that one's kind of gone away.
• 4:54
  I, um, do try to like,
• 4:57
  just when I notice something, like, stay in that
• 4:59
  awe moment a little bit longer when,
• 5:02
  um, you know, I mean, the normal, you know, reading
• 5:05
  scripture and praying and those kinds of things happen.
• 5:08
  Um, I love labyrinths, like prayer labyrinths. I
• 5:11
  have a couple like finger labyrinths and things that I can
• 5:14
  trace. But then downtown Denver here, there's a couple
• 5:17
  of churches that have labyrinths that you can go in and walk as well.
• 5:20
  So, um, I'm not someone who likes to sit still. So
• 5:23
  when I discovered prayer labyrinths, I was like, oh my gosh,
• 5:26
  this is amazing. I can move and pray at the same time. It's
• 5:28
  awesome. So, yeah, just a couple of those things. I like to play
• 5:31
  around with, with new things and see what happens.
• 5:34
  Um, you know, any way that I can open up
• 5:37
  a, ah, communication channel with the Spirit, I, um, take
• 5:40
  my dreams pretty seriously. Um, and m. Try
• 5:43
  to think about, you know, what. What was I feeling last night?
• 5:46
  What was I trying to get in touch with? What was the Spirit trying to tell
• 5:49
  me in my dreams? So all those kinds of
• 5:51
  things, um, kind of play into how I stay
• 5:54
  connected.
• 5:56
  >> Loren: That's interesting.
• 5:57
  If I can ask follow up about your dreams,
• 6:00
  because again, in scripture, we see a lot of
• 6:03
  value being placed in dreams. From
• 6:05
  what? Obviously,
• 6:08
  Joseph. Did Mary have a dream? M.
• 6:11
  I can't remember. Right.
• 6:12
  >> Bethany: Uh, yeah, we've got Joseph and Mary and
• 6:15
  then Joseph, Old Testament, you know.
• 6:17
  >> Loren: Like, we've got Old Testament, Joseph, obviously.
• 6:20
  >> Bethany: Yeah. I think dreams. I've always been. I
• 6:23
  dream every night. And, um, in
• 6:26
  college, I, like, did this whole, like, learn how to lucid
• 6:28
  dream, like, thing. Um,
• 6:31
  and there actually
• 6:33
  is. There used to be a certification. I forget what seminary it
• 6:36
  is, um, of DreamWorks, but I think they just made it a
• 6:39
  PhD program. And I'm like, I've never wanted to get a PhD, but I
• 6:42
  would love to get a PhD in DreamWorks.
• 6:45
  Um, and the way that God speaks to us
• 6:48
  through our dreams, for me, it's mostly like, it's
• 6:51
  not necessarily the stuff that is happening.
• 6:53
  It's the
• 6:55
  emotional journey that I'm on.
• 6:58
  Um, you know, when I was moving here, I would have a lot of
• 7:01
  dreams about, like, not being able to pack up my
• 7:04
  luggage fast enough to get the plane, and I would have
• 7:07
  it over and over and over again. And I was like, what is going
• 7:10
  on here? And I just realized that there's
• 7:13
  a lot of stuff that I was worried about that I can't pack up. The
• 7:15
  friends, the, you know, relationships,
• 7:18
  things that I'm going to have to leave in Michigan when I move
• 7:21
  to Colorado. And, you know, just realizing,
• 7:24
  like, okay, the spirit's asking me to, like, take
• 7:27
  stock of, um, these other things that I can't put
• 7:30
  into a box so that I make sure I'm maintaining
• 7:33
  these relationships. And, um, I wasn't. I wasn't
• 7:36
  doing that at the time. I was just kind of like, let's go. So it
• 7:39
  was nice to, like, okay, we need to spend some time thinking
• 7:42
  about these things.
• 7:43
  >> Loren: Yeah, that's interesting. Uh, I'm reminded when I
• 7:46
  was out of high school, I used to have
• 7:49
  the same themed dream again and
• 7:52
  again about being on the high school basketball team. And
• 7:55
  always the recurring theme was, like,
• 7:58
  I never quite made it back to an event
• 8:01
  or a game. And I finally realized, oh, I guess I
• 8:03
  miss being on the high school basketball team.
• 8:06
  And Hanging out with the guys and stuff.
• 8:09
  >> Bethany: Yeah.
• 8:10
  >> Loren: So that's interesting. It is really interesting.
• 8:13
  Um, let's talk
• 8:16
  about what we're here to talk about, and that is
• 8:18
  you as a. What. What. What even title do I give you
• 8:21
  then? I've seen some articles. TikTok Pastor, social
• 8:24
  media pastor. How do you identify
• 8:26
  yourself?
• 8:27
  >> Bethany: This has definitely been a journey of, like, just, like,
• 8:30
  accepting things that I wouldn't. The titles I wouldn't
• 8:33
  normally like. So TikTok master. Absolutely.
• 8:36
  I have learned that I need to own
• 8:39
  that. Um, social media
• 8:41
  evangelist, public theologian, those kinds of things that
• 8:44
  I would, like, never. Like evangelism.
• 8:47
  I don't want to get into that. That's a gross word. But that's
• 8:50
  exactly what I do, is I am evangelizing
• 8:53
  for the progressive Christian
• 8:55
  theology out there. Um, so, yeah, TikTok pastors
• 8:58
  is good. Um, it's
• 9:01
  remarkable to think how many people, like,
• 9:04
  would claim me as their pastor, you know,
• 9:06
  280,000 followers.
• 9:09
  Um, but I would say a good chunk of them, you
• 9:12
  know, reach out to me when they have a spiritual
• 9:15
  question or something going on in their life. And so it's like,
• 9:18
  yeah, I have to accept, like, I am their pastor.
• 9:21
  >> Loren: Wow, that is. That is interesting. Okay, so
• 9:24
  let's. Let's kind of get into the history. We're going to talk a
• 9:27
  little bit about philosophy and, you
• 9:30
  know, hopefully get some practical things, too.
• 9:33
  But, like, let's start.
• 9:34
  How did you start getting into using TikTok and social
• 9:37
  media for ministry? What kind of inspired you to want
• 9:40
  to use this as a theological or, like you said,
• 9:43
  evangelism platform?
• 9:45
  >> Bethany: Yeah, it was Covid. Um, it's like
• 9:48
  September of 2020. We had been in. In and out
• 9:51
  of lockdowns. And, uh, I was a youth pastor at
• 9:53
  the time. So, um, I was
• 9:57
  making some videos just to, like, send out to them.
• 10:00
  Um, but I started making those
• 10:02
  videos because when I was making the phone calls,
• 10:06
  family started being like, wow, we're talking a lot about hell, uh,
• 10:09
  around the dinner table. And I was like, okay,
• 10:11
  um, talking to kids and them being like, do you think I'm a lukewarm
• 10:14
  Christian? I'm like, that is not a term you're hearing
• 10:17
  from our stuff. Like, where are you getting that?
• 10:20
  And it was TikTok. Um, and I'd been on TikTok, but the
• 10:23
  algorithm is pretty good. And it knew, like, I didn't want to
• 10:25
  hear that, like, Theo bro
• 10:28
  crying video. Like, it never sent me those.
• 10:31
  Um, so I asked the kids to start sending them to me, and I made
• 10:34
  responses from that, you know,
• 10:37
  I have always kind of been someone who
• 10:39
  can translate, uh,
• 10:42
  biblical things into, like, the language of
• 10:46
  someone else. So seeing how
• 10:48
  jokes and things develop on TikTok, I was like, oh,
• 10:51
  yeah, that's kind of like, you know, Mary and
• 10:54
  Martha, when Jesus opens up Lazarus Tomb, and like,
• 10:57
  oh, no, it's going to smell that. You know, like, I could see how those
• 11:00
  played. And so I made those videos. Um,
• 11:03
  and then the one that caught was me
• 11:05
  wearing a transgender pride colored stole.
• 11:08
  Um, and people just being like, wait, what?
• 11:11
  Like, you can wear that in a church.
• 11:14
  You can be a female pastor. Even that. Like, we've been doing that for over
• 11:17
  60 years, and even that was shocking to people.
• 11:20
  Um, you can say black lives matter.
• 11:23
  You can talk about, uh, reproductive
• 11:26
  rights, and you're not going to get in trouble. I'm like, no, this is all things
• 11:29
  that my denomination has already made statements
• 11:31
  on. Um, and so from that, people were like,
• 11:34
  oh, wow, I didn't know that this
• 11:37
  theology was out there. Um, and that
• 11:40
  is just like, okay, well, I can reach
• 11:42
  you. You're in these zip codes that I call
• 11:45
  them theological deserts. They only have one kind of
• 11:48
  theology and all the churches around them. So
• 11:51
  I can reach you out there. So let's start making content.
• 11:54
  Let's start talking. Let's start doing Bible studies on
• 11:56
  Zoom and all that kind of stuff. It just kind of grew from there.
• 11:59
  >> Loren: Now, as I understand it, this really formalized into something
• 12:02
  more official, right?
• 12:04
  >> Bethany: Yeah. So our tapestry. Yeah, our tapestry
• 12:08
  is the, like, the official, like, ministry.
• 12:10
  >> Loren: Okay.
• 12:11
  >> Bethany: Um, it's, um, we meet on Tuesday
• 12:13
  nights to Bible study. I do pastoral care
• 12:16
  calls. Um, we do have, like, elbow to
• 12:19
  elbow events, which is, like, in person. I don't like to
• 12:22
  say in person because I'm still in my person when I'm
• 12:24
  online and in Zoom meetings. So, um, we call them
• 12:27
  elbow to elbow events.
• 12:29
  Um, we just
• 12:32
  try to create as much
• 12:34
  hurt as we can in digital
• 12:37
  spaces. We have a discord. So we can pray for each
• 12:40
  other and ask for support, um, celebrate with
• 12:43
  each other. So, yeah, it's been really wonderful
• 12:46
  to see what, uh, what the spirit can create, even
• 12:49
  though we are all thousands of miles away from each
• 12:52
  other.
• 12:54
  >> Loren: Yeah, it's interesting because, uh, again, like you said,
• 12:57
  depending on the part of the country and especially if it's small
• 13:00
  town, it's
• 13:03
  going to be hard for someone to find a,
• 13:06
  uh, church. I mean, again, I think, like you said,
• 13:09
  your terminology, I think probably comes from food deserts. Right.
• 13:12
  You know, similarly theological deserts, like, they're just
• 13:14
  Not. And that does have a, uh. That does
• 13:17
  have an impact. So I can imagine folks.
• 13:20
  So, uh, I'm curious, like, how do
• 13:22
  folks. What's. I don't spend a ton
• 13:25
  of time on TikTok, so my questions may be a little bit
• 13:28
  janky, like, what tends to. How do you. How
• 13:31
  do you find people? How do they find you? What's. Like, what do you hear? What do
• 13:34
  you hear from folks?
• 13:35
  >> Bethany: I mean, I think the only people who understand how an
• 13:38
  algorithm works are the people who wrote it and the Holy Spirit. Like,
• 13:41
  really, it is a lot of Holy Spirit stuff
• 13:43
  of, you know, people being like, why are you on
• 13:46
  my. For you, Paige. But wait a second. I actually really
• 13:49
  needed to hear that today. M. It is a lot
• 13:52
  of that. I will say, you know, you can use the
• 13:55
  hashtags. Uh, once you get a
• 13:57
  following, the algorithm starts to know, like, kind of who
• 14:00
  follows you and what kind of other people might
• 14:03
  match that, you know, profile.
• 14:06
  Um, so, yeah, it's for you page. It's scrolling
• 14:09
  through. It is a little bit of word of mouth. You know, people
• 14:12
  share my videos with other people. Um, and so
• 14:15
  then they, you know, will follow me back as
• 14:17
  well. Um. Um. So it's just. Yeah,
• 14:20
  it is this, like, wild world
• 14:23
  that it works. Um, but
• 14:26
  the Spirit knows how to make it work somehow.
• 14:29
  >> Loren: Well, I am relieved to hear that
• 14:31
  algorithms are not,
• 14:33
  uh, I say this somewhat
• 14:36
  tongue in cheek, but in some seriousness. Like, it does seem
• 14:39
  like the algorithm has a way
• 14:42
  to shape and mold minds. And I'm
• 14:44
  glad to see that you've experienced
• 14:47
  God working amidst, in spite of
• 14:50
  whatever we want to call it, those algorithms. So
• 14:53
  that's cool to hear.
• 14:55
  What is about TikTok? What is it about? Again, you
• 14:58
  mentioned kind of other platforms you're using. What is it about?
• 15:01
  I don't know if you want to go through platform or platform. Answer this how you
• 15:04
  want. What is it about these platforms that make, you know, reaching
• 15:07
  out to people and connecting with people, where they're at. Unique.
• 15:11
  >> Bethany: Yeah, I mean, TikTok specifically, the algorithm is
• 15:14
  really good at knowing people are multifaceted.
• 15:17
  Um, that you're not just Christian. You can be
• 15:20
  progressive Christian or queer Christian or, you know, so,
• 15:23
  like Instagram. It's taken me a while to find
• 15:26
  the right side of Instagram because it kept pushing
• 15:29
  me into, like, just Christian general world.
• 15:32
  And those people don't like me. And they make it
• 15:35
  very clear and known that they don't like me.
• 15:38
  Um, but the algorithm can't tell if a comment is a hate
• 15:41
  comment or a Positive comment. So, yeah, in
• 15:44
  Instagram's mind, it's going, oh, people are engaging. This is the right spot
• 15:46
  for her. And it's like, no, this is not the right spot for
• 15:49
  me, Instagram. But TikTok is, like,
• 15:52
  really good at being like, oh, it wasn't that. It's,
• 15:55
  like, slightly more like this. And it just can
• 15:58
  tweak, uh, itself really well.
• 16:00
  Red Note was the one that came out during the band that was
• 16:03
  also, um, owned in the Chinese
• 16:06
  sphere. Um, and again, like, in a week, I
• 16:09
  got 200 followers. There's just something about the way they've written
• 16:12
  this algorithm over there that they understand
• 16:15
  that people are not just one type of
• 16:18
  thing, they are many things. And they might be a different
• 16:21
  thing when they get on next week. You know, like, they can
• 16:24
  really shift gears really quickly, um, in their algorithm.
• 16:27
  So it is. It is something that I hope
• 16:30
  we can find a way for everyone
• 16:32
  to get along so that we can keep
• 16:35
  it. Um, because social media is one of
• 16:38
  those things, like, when you can scroll through,
• 16:41
  see other people's lives, see some joyful
• 16:44
  things. Like, it is. It can be like a drug,
• 16:46
  right? Like, it takes you completely out of your
• 16:49
  world, takes the edge off of whatever happened to you
• 16:52
  that day. Um, and I think it
• 16:55
  should be used, like, we think about drugs,
• 16:58
  like, in these smaller portions. Um, um, there.
• 17:01
  It's a really great place. Yes. It's
• 17:04
  gonna assume who you are and so you can be
• 17:06
  intentional about. Hey, I haven't seen anything
• 17:09
  from a black creator. Uh, let me go and search
• 17:12
  for that. So that, um, it's. It doesn't put you
• 17:15
  into these pigeonholed corners. So there is a way to be really
• 17:18
  intentional with the. The people that you're following and the
• 17:21
  way that you're scrolling, um, to kind
• 17:24
  of take the advantages and the disadvantages, leave
• 17:26
  them, you know, off to the side.
• 17:28
  >> Loren: Okay, let me ask a quick question then. Just like. Because
• 17:31
  you mentioned what Red Note. And I was like, I don't know what the heck she's talking
• 17:34
  about. But then I was just remembering, like, I looked at my
• 17:37
  TikTok last night, hadn't looked in a while, and I was.
• 17:40
  Had a couple requests to follow me on Lemonade. What the heck
• 17:42
  is. Is that a thing then? What is that?
• 17:45
  >> Bethany: So with the, like, looming ban, what's happening? Lemon
• 17:48
  8 is, um, an American app
• 17:51
  that creators are trying to go over
• 17:53
  to. Um, um, there's one called Fan Base
• 17:56
  that's supposed to pull all of your fans and all of your
• 17:59
  material. I've deleted that One that, when I wasn't, it
• 18:02
  wasn't working. RedNote, um, is another Chinese
• 18:04
  one. Like, it's all in Mandarin. Like, I might have signed
• 18:07
  up for the Chinese Army. Like, it was in Mandarin when I
• 18:10
  said, yes, I accept these terms, you
• 18:13
  know, but that was kind of like a, you know, thumb in your nose at the
• 18:16
  man. Like, well, you don't want us talking to China. We're going to go talk to
• 18:19
  China. You know, um, you know, Instagram,
• 18:22
  your YouTube, uh, there's one that's coming out that I'm really
• 18:25
  excited about called Neptune that is created
• 18:28
  by creators, um, but Also the
• 18:31
  like, CEOs and stuff are all women. So I'm hoping they'll have some
• 18:34
  better terms for the haters for the
• 18:37
  negative, um, social impact. I think they'll be really
• 18:40
  mindful of that. Um, so, yeah, there's lots of
• 18:42
  apps out there and right now I'm kind of
• 18:45
  just like posting the same video on like six different
• 18:48
  apps going, I don't know where we're going to all end up, but
• 18:51
  you know, I'll be there.
• 18:53
  >> Loren: It feels like we are kind of in that time again
• 18:56
  where social media is going through a churn
• 18:58
  cycle. Uh, like, because again, like, it
• 19:01
  was like, I really do miss Twitter. Like, I really
• 19:04
  feel like Twitter was a really good platform for connecting with
• 19:07
  people, getting different ideas, talking folks. And
• 19:10
  obviously like what, two, three years ago that kind of
• 19:13
  got blown up and now we're getting in that, in that kind of like word
• 19:16
  based social media app. You
• 19:19
  know, blue skies coming in. Obviously Threads has
• 19:21
  tried to make an impact, but then folks are like, do I want like
• 19:24
  all my social media be under meta and
• 19:27
  zuck? So the same thing, I guess is
• 19:30
  happening with the, uh, the video base. Right. It sounds like
• 19:33
  TikTok competition. So
• 19:36
  TBD, I guess on that. Right?
• 19:37
  >> Bethany: Yeah, I mean it's, it's everyone going, okay, if TikTok
• 19:40
  does get banned, there is a huge market,
• 19:43
  uh, of people that are going to be, you know, looking for something. So
• 19:46
  who's going to win? Is it going to be Instagram? Is it going to
• 19:49
  be something else? And um, so that's kind of why
• 19:52
  it's turning over. Because before
• 19:55
  we were all happy with TikTok. We're like, we did it, it's
• 19:58
  good here. So now we're just
• 20:01
  trying to find a place to put our head if that goes
• 20:04
  away.
• 20:05
  >> Loren: Yeah.
• 20:05
  So I want to move into, I want to talk about some of the things
• 20:08
  you've kind of mentioned here offhand. Just obviously, uh,
• 20:11
  social Media has been criticized for amplifying
• 20:14
  extreme voices, creating echo chambers. I mean, you kind of mentioned
• 20:17
  it that in some algorithms, like they don't
• 20:20
  care if it's a like or, or a hate comment.
• 20:22
  Like, it, it raises profiles. And
• 20:25
  I think again, I'm going to kind of devil's advocate here.
• 20:28
  Like, that's kind of one of my hang ups about
• 20:31
  social media is like someone can really just put
• 20:34
  anything out there. Just
• 20:37
  be. And because it's gonna get hates or likes,
• 20:39
  it's gonna grow them, it's gonna grow
• 20:42
  the comments, gonna grow their reach, blah, blah, blah. And it
• 20:45
  sounds something like good content. So
• 20:48
  talk through that. How you, how you navigate that.
• 20:51
  >> Bethany: Yeah, I mean, yeah, the rage bait is definitely a
• 20:54
  thing. Um, it is,
• 20:57
  you know, people will like misspell a word,
• 21:00
  uh, on their, on the screen and then people would be like, it's
• 21:03
  at not as. You know, like, that's how
• 21:06
  I've used it a couple times just to like play around with like,
• 21:09
  can I, can I get some rage bait attraction? Uh,
• 21:13
  um, again, like, you just have to be aware that
• 21:16
  this is happening to you. I mean, it happens when you Google
• 21:18
  things. Um, if I Google, you know, what does the Bible
• 21:21
  say about abortion in Colorado? It's going to give
• 21:24
  me a different answer than if I do that in North Carolina. Yeah,
• 21:27
  we just have to be aware that we are being
• 21:30
  manipulated. Like, there is no, you
• 21:32
  know, there's no going around that anymore.
• 21:36
  Um, you know, teach our kids, teach our
• 21:39
  parents, our, our grandparents, like you are being
• 21:41
  manipulated. Um, but
• 21:44
  then once you know that, then you can
• 21:47
  do the two, three, four steps
• 21:50
  to readjust. You can go to page three and
• 21:53
  see, you know, what else does it say? You can ask a better
• 21:55
  question, um, to get a
• 21:58
  better search result, you can look at different
• 22:01
  hashtags and readjust who you're
• 22:03
  following. So you can be really intentional and kind
• 22:06
  of. But again, like, if you're going on there just
• 22:09
  to like feel good and see good things,
• 22:12
  um, then you're not being intentional
• 22:15
  about it. You just. I kind of like once a week I'm
• 22:18
  like, okay, let me go through with intention and see who's
• 22:21
  coming up on my for you page. Um, there are
• 22:23
  apps like Instagram, I don't know if they've rolled it out
• 22:26
  yet. Um, started some things where
• 22:29
  it changes the way your for you page comes up where like,
• 22:32
  you see your following the people you're following
• 22:34
  first, um, to kind of get rid of this
• 22:37
  like doom scrolling of all this
• 22:40
  new content. Like, show me the people I care about
• 22:43
  first, and then I'll go and do some other things.
• 22:46
  TikTok, um, has just started. Um, you
• 22:48
  can, um, turn on and off different
• 22:51
  topics. So, like, I was on vacation a couple
• 22:54
  weeks ago, and I turned off the,
• 22:56
  like, social commentary, current events
• 22:59
  tab so that, like, I just don't want to see it. I'm on
• 23:02
  vacation, right? Yeah. Turn up the puppies. Turn up
• 23:05
  the good stuff while I'm on vacation. Yeah.
• 23:08
  Um, so there are
• 23:10
  features that these apps are, like, hearing us
• 23:13
  say, hey, this is really weird. I
• 23:16
  don't like this. They're giving us features. We
• 23:19
  just have to know that they exist and actually engage
• 23:21
  them.
• 23:22
  >> Loren: Okay. Forgive me for staying on this, like,
• 23:25
  oh, all the bad sides of social media, but I feel like I have to ask these
• 23:28
  questions.
• 23:28
  >> Bethany: Yeah.
• 23:29
  >> Loren: So what was it? A few years ago, right, There was a documentary on. Was it
• 23:32
  Netflix? About, like, all those Facebook
• 23:35
  and all those kind of social media engineers talking about just how
• 23:38
  it's, like, engineered to. I mean,
• 23:41
  you use a word to be used like a drug.
• 23:44
  >> Bethany: Yep.
• 23:45
  >> Loren: So we know this to be true. How do you then a,
• 23:48
  uh, like, make sure you're not kind of feeding into that? And
• 23:50
  again, I. I want to acknowledge, like, this is a very
• 23:53
  controversial or not controversial. It's very complex,
• 23:56
  complicated situation because, like, to not be on these
• 23:59
  spaces, just to not be like. It just be like, oh, yeah, we're going
• 24:02
  to pretend all these people don't exist. Like, I don't think that's an option. Just not
• 24:05
  be on those spaces. So how do you. How do you utilize the space
• 24:07
  without feeling like you're feeding into, like, the. The,
• 24:10
  you know, the constant, like.
• 24:14
  >> Bethany: Yeah, well, I mean, as a creator,
• 24:17
  um, I.
• 24:20
  I mean, one. I know my message is, one,
• 24:23
  to lift people up. M. I am
• 24:26
  focused on, like, how do you engage with your
• 24:28
  theology better? Um, so, you
• 24:31
  know, I'm very sure I know what my message is. And
• 24:34
  so people are following me. That's, you know, what they're going
• 24:37
  to get from me. Um, you know, I try
• 24:40
  not to use the, like, rage bait, you
• 24:43
  know, manipulation stuff, but those numbers
• 24:46
  are really enticing. Like, I will say,
• 24:48
  last year I did a lot of wrestling of,
• 24:51
  like, oh, like, the bots are going away now the numbers are
• 24:54
  going down. Or, like, you know, how do I get those numbers up
• 24:57
  again? Um, this one got more likes, and so why don't
• 25:00
  I create another video exactly like that to get more likes? Why
• 25:03
  don't I? You know, it's so. It is
• 25:05
  something that you have to Be very aware
• 25:08
  of. Um, and as a creator, now
• 25:11
  that this is my job, I have
• 25:14
  that ability. Um, but I can see, you know,
• 25:17
  teenagers who are just kind of posting things here and there, how it
• 25:20
  can be really hurtful and harmful to them to be like, oh, I
• 25:23
  need to get more likes. I need to get more comments.
• 25:24
  >> Loren: Yeah.
• 25:25
  >> Bethany: Um, but again, you know,
• 25:28
  we're not getting away from it. Like, if it's not TikTok, it's
• 25:31
  gonna be something else. It's gonna be Facebook. It's gonna be. So we just have
• 25:34
  to know. We just have to do some parenting of
• 25:36
  ourselves and the next generation to say,
• 25:39
  this is how you kind of stop that cycle when you
• 25:42
  start feeling this way, you know, do this other
• 25:45
  thing and, um, teach ourselves how
• 25:48
  to. To get it, get away from that. I mean, it's.
• 25:52
  You can block people. You know, if you see someone coming up who's,
• 25:54
  like, doing the manipulative crying, I need you to know, Jesus,
• 25:57
  you can block them. You know, I wish my haters would do that more
• 26:00
  often. Like, stop engaging with me. Just block
• 26:03
  me, please, people. Someone commented last week, like, I
• 26:06
  wish you would go away. And I kind of like,
• 26:09
  cheeky, cheeky. I was like, there's actually this great feature
• 26:12
  on this app called Block that you can make me
• 26:15
  go away forever. Um, but they
• 26:18
  just don't.
• 26:18
  They just love to comment and see if they can get under my skin. And, you know,
• 26:21
  sometimes they do, and most of the time I just laugh and roll my
• 26:24
  eyes and block them.
• 26:26
  >> Loren: Okay, this is good. This is good. So how do you, like, what do you.
• 26:29
  What do you do for yourself, maybe to kind of stay,
• 26:33
  you know, not. So you're not staring at your phone all
• 26:36
  day. To. What do you
• 26:39
  help coach? I don't know what the word is. Like, your
• 26:41
  followers, what do you. What's your own kind of thing you can
• 26:44
  write?
• 26:44
  >> Bethany: Yeah, I mean, um, so the
• 26:47
  hater comments are one of the things that, like,
• 26:50
  I have had to learn. Um, you know,
• 26:53
  I want to come back. I want to gate. Like, I want to, like. And
• 26:56
  so, like, when I'm feeling that, like, high up in my chest zinger, I know
• 26:59
  that that's. That's a different feeling than if I'm, like, actually
• 27:02
  trying to educate and engage and be, you know, more
• 27:05
  loving. So I've learned, like, okay, if that's the energy
• 27:08
  I'm feeling up here in my chest, that's. I'm not going
• 27:11
  to respond. Yeah, um, I did take, like,
• 27:14
  a break of. And, uh, I'm coming to the End of it.
• 27:16
  Of like, not engaging with haters. I've
• 27:19
  broken that a couple times, but it's really helped me
• 27:22
  hone in how and who I want to actually
• 27:25
  engage with. Um, so giving myself permission to just
• 27:28
  be like, just delete and block. Just delete and block.
• 27:31
  Um, I will. For my personal,
• 27:34
  like scrolling, um, I
• 27:37
  will there. On TikTok, there's a way you like press and hold
• 27:40
  and it can say, I don't want to see this, I'm not interested. So you can
• 27:43
  kind of train the algorithm a little bit. And I will
• 27:45
  say, since that quick ban happened, I have
• 27:48
  seen more MAGA content on my page than I've
• 27:51
  ever seen before. I've never seen any of that. And
• 27:54
  I see it, uh, at least three or four videos a day of it, and I'm like,
• 27:57
  why? Why is it just suddenly coming up? So
• 28:00
  like, my government is afraid of me being
• 28:03
  manipulated by China, but totally okay with manipulating
• 28:06
  me themselves is essentially what that is.
• 28:08
  >> Loren: Yeah.
• 28:09
  >> Bethany: So you notice those things, you block the creator, you
• 28:12
  say, I'm not, uh, interested in this content. Um, actually
• 28:15
  doing those things. Don't just scroll by. Actually
• 28:18
  doing those things are the things that are going to save you in the
• 28:21
  long run. So that's why I try to tell people
• 28:24
  looking up hashtags, you know, if you don't see any
• 28:26
  black creators or queer creators or disabled
• 28:29
  creators, like go and look it up and then watch a couple of
• 28:32
  those videos, like them, comment on them, follow people,
• 28:35
  and your algorithm will start to
• 28:38
  redirect itself and recorrect and say, okay, this person does want
• 28:41
  to see this stuff.
• 28:43
  >> Loren: Okay, last, like, hard question I've. I have to ask
• 28:46
  because you kind of mentioned this whole. When was that? Like, was it
• 28:49
  November? No, November. January 9th.
• 28:52
  When was the date?
• 28:52
  >> Bethany: No, the 19 9th. 19th is
• 28:55
  after the inaugural. No, it was right. Right before the
• 28:58
  inauguration.
• 28:58
  >> Loren: Yeah, that's Right. I have January 6th in mind for other
• 29:01
  reasons.
• 29:02
  >> Bethany: Yeah, right. Yeah.
• 29:03
  >> Loren: So January 19th. Right. Like, it went dark
• 29:06
  and it was like, so,
• 29:08
  ugh. I don't want to get into that frustratingness of the
• 29:11
  back and forth talk.
• 29:13
  >> Bethany: Yeah.
• 29:13
  >> Loren: That being said, I think. Excuse me. I think there is
• 29:16
  some element. Again, this is my perspective.
• 29:19
  Like, like I have
• 29:21
  stacks of books all around me that I read and I think,
• 29:24
  like, reading books is probably a more useful
• 29:28
  time, but I do enjoy, like flipping through videos
• 29:31
  too. Uh, but again, devil's
• 29:34
  advocate, like, is there some merit to
• 29:36
  this idea that, like, TikTok is kind of melting our brain?
• 29:39
  A and like, B, like, it's kind of
• 29:42
  ruining the. The conversation because like you said, how.
• 29:45
  Whether it's China who's manipulating us, whether it's
• 29:48
  far right voices who are manipulating us. Like,
• 29:51
  again, I'm, uh, this is a high level
• 29:54
  cynical question, but like, like,
• 29:57
  is TikTok? I mean, really, is social media, like,
• 30:00
  worth the mess?
• 30:01
  >> Bethany: The potential mess,
• 30:04
  I will say. Um, the thing I
• 30:07
  think the ban is truly
• 30:10
  about is that on social media
• 30:13
  they can't control the narrative.
• 30:16
  So I follow mothers in
• 30:18
  Palestine.
• 30:19
  >> Loren: Mhm.
• 30:19
  >> Bethany: And so I get to see exactly what is happening
• 30:22
  on the ground in the moment from the people who are
• 30:25
  experiencing it. My government can't control
• 30:28
  that narrative. And that, I think is what they are mostly afraid
• 30:31
  of, that we are able to talk directly to each
• 30:34
  other, to learn to
• 30:37
  love each other. And so they can't tell
• 30:40
  us who is the bad guy.
• 30:42
  >> Loren: Mhm.
• 30:43
  >> Bethany: Um, and that, I think is the thing that
• 30:46
  scares the man the most about social media. And the thing
• 30:49
  I think is the biggest
• 30:51
  value of social media is that I can find out.
• 30:54
  I follow someone who is, has,
• 30:57
  don't. Doesn't have arms. They do their makeup every
• 31:00
  morning. It is amazing. You
• 31:03
  know, so now when I see someone who doesn't have arms,
• 31:06
  I'm not going to think, oh, they're not able to A, B
• 31:08
  or C. Uh-huh. I know that they probably
• 31:11
  can and probably better than I can. Um,
• 31:14
  so it's a very amazing social
• 31:17
  teaching tool. I know
• 31:20
  more about transgender surgery because there is
• 31:22
  someone out there who's willing to answer the questions that I
• 31:25
  would never ask any of my trans friends because
• 31:28
  it is an inappropriate question to ask. But I can
• 31:31
  hear the answer from someone who is willing to be a
• 31:34
  teacher for their experience.
• 31:37
  Um, and that's what I think. Social media,
• 31:40
  why we need it. Um, yeah.
• 31:43
  And put humans in any kind of space.
• 31:46
  We will.
• 31:47
  >> Loren: That's true. This is true.
• 31:49
  >> Bethany: It will be a hellhole because humans
• 31:52
  just love to make spaces, hellholes. Um,
• 31:55
  but if we can focus on
• 31:57
  why it is important for us to be
• 32:00
  social and be together, social
• 32:03
  media just amplifies that.
• 32:05
  >> Loren: I'm appreciating that last point you made about human
• 32:08
  nature. I mean, certainly in Christian
• 32:10
  teaching we have language, we have theological
• 32:13
  language around that we can dispute,
• 32:16
  or we can debate the finer elements of
• 32:19
  the sin nature, the sin element of humanity. But I think that's
• 32:22
  an important point that I
• 32:25
  think is not talked about enough. I'm
• 32:28
  thinking of past guests who have
• 32:31
  made this point. Again, I'm thinking Ted Smith,
• 32:34
  Elesha Coffman, who've kind of made this point like humans are going
• 32:36
  to human, whatever context we're in. So I think I'm
• 32:39
  glad you made that point. So I'll
• 32:42
  kind of back uh, off these hard hitting questions here
• 32:45
  and, and throw you, throw you a break
• 32:48
  here.
• 32:49
  So this kind of, I think
• 32:52
  you kind of might have addressed this point. But let's just, let's just
• 32:54
  uh, go to this just for specifically what are
• 32:57
  the biggest misconceptions m that folks have? So like
• 33:00
  again, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're, you're in the, working in
• 33:03
  the PC USA space primarily, right? Or at least that's
• 33:06
  your church tradition. What are like folks being
• 33:09
  like, you know, when you're, when you're at a
• 33:12
  clergy gathering or you're in like a official uh, church thing where
• 33:15
  there's clergy and there's lay folks, what are people like,
• 33:18
  oh, here's Reverend Bethany, like TikTok
• 33:20
  Pastor, you know, what are the biggest misconceptions folks
• 33:23
  are giving you?
• 33:25
  >> Bethany: Yeah, I mean I do think,
• 33:27
  um, talking about it as
• 33:29
  evangelism has helped a lot, um, in that
• 33:32
  kind of idea of like, why do we do this? I um, just
• 33:35
  wrote an article for Presbyterian, ah, Outlook magazine
• 33:38
  about like the need for public theology.
• 33:41
  Um, and I think that has helped.
• 33:44
  But yeah, when I wrote the first grants, it was like, okay,
• 33:47
  cool. And then when are you gonna actually start a church? And I'm
• 33:49
  like, hold on. We are actually a
• 33:52
  church. Um, you know, we do Bible study, we have worship
• 33:55
  times. We, you know, we don't, we're not worshiping Sunday at 10:00am
• 33:58
  mhm. But we have a discord where someone
• 34:01
  comes in and goes, you know, my, my
• 34:04
  nephew was murdered just now. Well then we're
• 34:07
  all gathering together right then and there in that space,
• 34:10
  you know, sending uh, prayers and talking with
• 34:13
  them and checking in on them. Like that is worship.
• 34:16
  That is us being together, being
• 34:19
  the body of Christ. Yeah. So you know,
• 34:22
  it happens in different ways. Um, I
• 34:25
  think you know a lot of misconception.
• 34:28
  I love when like the older clergy
• 34:31
  will like come up to me and be like, oh, but TikTok's just a bunch of
• 34:33
  half naked dancing girls. And I was like, oh, you just told on
• 34:36
  yourself. Because that means that those are the
• 34:39
  videos you're watching all the way to the end. Like, you don't have to
• 34:42
  engage or like, like, or comment. But if you watch a video to
• 34:45
  the end, that algorithm knows you like it and so it's going
• 34:48
  to send you another one. And so, um, you just
• 34:51
  told on yourself on what you're doing with your social media content.
• 34:55
  So, like, people think, like, oh, you know, the algorithm is racist.
• 34:58
  Well, it's the people that use the algorithm
• 35:01
  to tell it what to do. And so it's probably the people that are
• 35:04
  racist. Um, so just like, some of
• 35:06
  those, those misconceptions about the space that I'm using.
• 35:10
  Um, yeah. Is. Is it a real
• 35:12
  ministry? Am I, Am I a real pastor?
• 35:15
  Um, all that kind of stuff. And that's why I'm really glad that
• 35:18
  I initially went with the name rev Bethany and not
• 35:21
  something else, because I'm like, I am a reverend. I have that
• 35:24
  title. Um, and it's been important for people
• 35:27
  to see, like, a pastor
• 35:30
  saying these things, um, saying God loves
• 35:32
  you. So I think people just don't
• 35:35
  understand the impact.
• 35:37
  Um, you know, is this the end goal? What is the end
• 35:40
  goal? This is the end goal. Like, the end goal is that
• 35:43
  more people know God loves them. And that's what I do every
• 35:45
  day.
• 35:46
  >> Loren: Well, that's. That's a lead to another question I was going to ask, like,
• 35:49
  thinking about the end goal.
• 35:50
  Like, I think I listened to a podcast with
• 35:53
  you being interviewed some time ago,
• 35:56
  and I remember there being discussion about, like,
• 35:58
  some of the work you do is to helping people find a
• 36:01
  church, get, uh, into a different church. Talk more
• 36:04
  about, like, I think. I guess I'd say it this
• 36:07
  way. Like, I think there's certainly in our
• 36:09
  context, in our culture, like, there's going to some people, like, I wish
• 36:12
  it were different. Like, I wish folks felt comfortable. I wish
• 36:15
  their church is comfortable for them where they could just walk into a church
• 36:18
  again. But I think realistically that's not possible. Like,
• 36:21
  so I almost think some of what you do is, like, missionary work,
• 36:24
  which, I know that's a loaded title, but since
• 36:27
  we're using evangelism, we can say missionary work, right? Like, you're trying to
• 36:30
  reintroduce people to the, to the faith in some way. Like,
• 36:33
  so I don't want to say, because end goal is very,
• 36:36
  like, specific and. But, like, what do you see as,
• 36:39
  like, some of your different outcome goals? Like, obviously
• 36:42
  you mentioned, like, showing people God loves them. Like, is getting
• 36:45
  people back in church part of your goal? What does that, what does that look
• 36:47
  like?
• 36:48
  >> Bethany: Yeah, our tapestry is a bit of a triage
• 36:51
  tent, um, where people come in really
• 36:54
  hurt and some of them heal to the point of,
• 36:57
  like, oh, I'll go to church, like, last Easter.
• 37:00
  I, uh, think these are just people who told me, like,
• 37:03
  11 people actually told me their Families walked into a
• 37:06
  church for the first time in years. So they,
• 37:09
  some of them do heal enough to go back into
• 37:12
  those spaces. Um, some people
• 37:14
  are, um, you know, my pastoral care
• 37:17
  calls are like, please don't believe in God anymore.
• 37:20
  Because that word God and that relationship
• 37:23
  is so toxic and abusive. Like who you
• 37:26
  think God is is not.
• 37:29
  Not who I believe God is. But they need to drop
• 37:32
  God for a little while.
• 37:33
  >> Loren: Mhm.
• 37:33
  >> Bethany: Before they maybe, hopefully will rebuild
• 37:36
  that. Um, so some people, it's just like, let's
• 37:39
  unpack enough religious trauma so you can live your life away
• 37:42
  from the church and not have this come up
• 37:44
  constantly. Religious, um, trauma is,
• 37:48
  I would say, the worst because it is your
• 37:51
  worth, it is your purpose, it
• 37:53
  is the, uh,
• 37:56
  quintessential. You know, why do I exist and why
• 37:59
  do you know that permeates
• 38:02
  everything about you? I've got people who
• 38:05
  can't drive over bridges because the idea of
• 38:07
  going bridging over to the next life is
• 38:10
  terrifying to them because they think they're going to hell. Like,
• 38:13
  it really gets in there. So religious
• 38:15
  trauma, if people can just drop a little bit of that with me
• 38:18
  and then move on, great. But I
• 38:21
  mean, I talk a lot about decluttering faith. We've got this whole
• 38:24
  deconstruction thing. I don't. I think that word's being
• 38:27
  used in ways now that I don't like. So I talk
• 38:30
  about decluttering. Faith
• 38:33
  needs to be decluttered for your whole life, just like
• 38:36
  your living room. Uh, we need to move some things around.
• 38:39
  There are things in faith and theology that we have put in the
• 38:41
  bathroom that no one talks about that we need to bring
• 38:44
  out into the living room. We need to talk about it.
• 38:47
  So this language of decluttering.
• 38:50
  There'll be a book coming soon.
• 38:52
  >> Loren: Um, yeah, I'm excited.
• 38:54
  >> Bethany: Let me know next because I'm, uh, excited about
• 38:56
  that. It's really helpful for
• 38:59
  people when I start talking about decluttering because they understand
• 39:02
  that, yes, there are times in your life of decluttering
• 39:05
  that you just put it in a box, you put it in a closet.
• 39:08
  That's great. Love it. Do it.
• 39:09
  >> Loren: Mhm.
• 39:10
  >> Bethany: And then hopefully there's a time we pull that box out again. So
• 39:13
  our tapestry. There are people who are going back to church.
• 39:15
  There are people who live in like, you know, big cities
• 39:18
  that are like, oh, you know, they're not in a theological
• 39:21
  desert per se, but the building of a
• 39:24
  church is terrifying to them.
• 39:26
  >> Loren: Sure.
• 39:26
  >> Bethany: And so if I can like, uh, we. Our last
• 39:29
  elbow to elbow event was here In Denver. I took the group to a church where I was
• 39:32
  preaching at and they were like, we sat through a
• 39:35
  whole church service, like liturgical church service.
• 39:38
  And I didn't feel shame or guilt. They're like, this is possible. I'm
• 39:41
  like, I've been telling you it's possible. But for them
• 39:44
  to, for me to be with them in that has
• 39:47
  been really helpful. So I want to do that more to just like show
• 39:50
  up in town and say, let's go to this church.
• 39:52
  Um, you know, one person went into the bathroom
• 39:55
  and there was a picture of Jesus laughing. And they came out
• 39:58
  and they're like, rev, can Jesus laugh?
• 40:01
  And I'm like, yes. But they came from the
• 40:04
  space where Jesus was always very stoic and you
• 40:07
  know, sad or you know, teaching. And like they
• 40:10
  just didn't, it didn't dawn on them that uh,
• 40:12
  Jesus laughs and that just seeing that picture.
• 40:15
  But they weren't going to walk in that building unless I was with
• 40:18
  them. And we had already done work for them to be like,
• 40:21
  okay, let's give it a chance. So that's what our
• 40:23
  tapestry, and some of some people I think will probably just
• 40:26
  stay with our tapestry for a long time. Like it's just not, they're not going
• 40:29
  to go back into another kind of Christian space, which is
• 40:32
  also totally fine.
• 40:35
  >> Loren: I'm so intrigued. We're gonna have to talk more about this.
• 40:38
  I'm so intrigued by your decluttering versus deconstruction. Like,
• 40:41
  uh, I feel like every day I still get sent books on deconstruction.
• 40:44
  I'm like, uh, have. Haven't we like worn the heck out of this
• 40:47
  theme already? Like enough, you know, I
• 40:50
  know the.
• 40:50
  >> Bethany: Reason the book isn't out yet because I'm like, the world does not
• 40:52
  need another, you know,
• 40:55
  book. But yeah, with all due respect to.
• 40:57
  >> Loren: Like first time authors getting published, like, good for you. I'm
• 41:00
  excited for you. Like, that's a goal of mine too, I think someday.
• 41:03
  But like so good for you if that's your thing. But also like,
• 41:06
  I mean I am kind of just over like this whole like, let's just
• 41:09
  take a sledgehammer to everything. So I'm really intrigued by your model
• 41:12
  of like we're going to declutter.
• 41:14
  >> Bethany: Yeah. Uh, there's good stuff we've gotten from
• 41:17
  churches with bad theology.
• 41:18
  >> Loren: Mhm.
• 41:19
  >> Bethany: They every once in a while they get it right.
• 41:21
  >> Loren: Yeah.
• 41:22
  >> Bethany: You know, even my church, you know, I
• 41:25
  Missouri send Lutheran. I don't agree with a lot of what they
• 41:28
  do, but. But I learned that at church you find family,
• 41:31
  you find people.
• 41:32
  >> Loren: Mhm.
• 41:32
  >> Bethany: That will support you, that will show up. That's a
• 41:35
  beautiful. I don't wanna deconstruct that. That's right. That's correct.
• 41:38
  I don't need to do anything with that. But there are
• 41:41
  things around it that I need to get rid of.
• 41:44
  >> Loren: Okay, well, tbd, folks. TBD on that.
• 41:47
  Okay, uh, one more question here before we take a break.
• 41:51
  This is kind of broad. So again,
• 41:54
  answer is how you want, but how do you think do you
• 41:57
  being a TikTok pastor, you being a social media pastor, how is
• 42:00
  that, like, what are some ways you'd be like, oh, my goodness, I didn't see that
• 42:03
  coming. Or this is really. My perspective has really changed.
• 42:06
  Share a couple of those.
• 42:07
  >> Bethany: I mean, the biggest thing is
• 42:09
  like, progressive Christians, we need to
• 42:12
  realize the voice on the other side is so
• 42:15
  loud and so hurtful.
• 42:18
  Um, one of the things that, like, I really need to push within
• 42:21
  my own community is like, leave a, uh,
• 42:24
  kind comment. You may think, oh, this creator gets all
• 42:26
  sorts of good stuff. The kind comments,
• 42:29
  the smiley faces mean the world
• 42:32
  to me because I might have another video that is going viral on
• 42:35
  a side of TikTok that I don't want to be on. And like,
• 42:38
  two weeks ago, I blocked
• 42:41
  300 people on Instagram.
• 42:43
  >> Loren: Holy smokes.
• 42:44
  >> Bethany: 300 people in one week. They were all Christian.
• 42:46
  Every single one of their bios had Jesus is king or some Bible
• 42:49
  verse. So, like, our Christian
• 42:52
  siblings are really screwing this up for us. Like, we can lament
• 42:55
  the church is dying, but there's a lot of the church that needs to
• 42:58
  die. Um, and so we need to be louder. We need to be more
• 43:01
  supportive of those voices that are giving out
• 43:04
  gospel of truth. Um, that
• 43:06
  is one thing that drives me nuts. Uh,
• 43:09
  but I have
• 43:12
  solidified. I mean, it's always a work in
• 43:15
  progress, but I am pretty good with my body image
• 43:18
  now because the haters have tried to come at
• 43:21
  me with every single thing
• 43:24
  they have never mentioned. The two things I would say are like,
• 43:27
  my biggest flaws. They've never mentioned them. Um,
• 43:29
  they'll say things like, oh, nice wig. I'm like, wigs are
• 43:32
  perfect. What do you. Thank you. What are you talking about?
• 43:35
  You know, they'll, like, say something. I'm like, that is just the most ridiculous
• 43:38
  thing. That is not how my body looks. So to
• 43:41
  know that, like, the people who are actively trying to hurt
• 43:44
  me haven't noticed the flaws that I
• 43:47
  look at when I look in the mirror, it's like, okay,
• 43:49
  Bethany, you are meaner. To yourself than the meanest
• 43:52
  troll on the Internet. Stop it. So they
• 43:55
  have taught me a lot of things that I
• 43:58
  have, you know, for my self confidence.
• 44:00
  Um, you know, I worked in youth ministry
• 44:03
  and I thought I knew what online bullying was. I
• 44:06
  can't imagine if I got these comments
• 44:09
  from people who I actually knew. Like, we
• 44:12
  really need to be much more
• 44:14
  active, um, with how we're dealing with bullying, which is
• 44:17
  why I'm excited about Neptune, because I think they're going to have some cool
• 44:20
  controls on there, um, to help with like, Internet
• 44:23
  bullying. Um,
• 44:26
  uh, there was something. I'll say the question again, because there was something. I was going to go
• 44:29
  down a not so negative route as
• 44:31
  well.
• 44:32
  >> Loren: No, I think. Yeah. So I think you shared some, like, ways that
• 44:35
  it. That's been negative. But how.
• 44:38
  What are some positive, like view changing things or
• 44:41
  perspectives that have shifted positively.
• 44:43
  >> Bethany: Yeah.
• 44:44
  Um, as a
• 44:47
  pastor, there are things you think about in
• 44:50
  seminary that your people are going to ask you about.
• 44:53
  The Internet is where people actually ask them
• 44:55
  m. What version should I be reading, Pastor? You
• 44:58
  know, what does the Bible like, when you're in person
• 45:02
  and looking eye to eye with your pastor, you don't, you know, you
• 45:04
  don't want to admit what you don't know kind of thing. Um, I
• 45:07
  had a youth who had been in my youth coupe for
• 45:10
  years, did confirmation with me.
• 45:13
  Never asked me a single question. They were just not.
• 45:16
  They're not that person. After
• 45:19
  maybe a month making videos on TikTok, they asked me a
• 45:21
  question and they asked me a really good question. They said,
• 45:24
  why does the church have a bad relationship with
• 45:27
  sex? Like what?
• 45:30
  So the anonymity is a blessing and a curse.
• 45:32
  >> Loren: Yeah.
• 45:33
  >> Bethany: The anonymity allows people to ask you those questions and
• 45:36
  to open up and to be vulnerable in ways that they're not gonna
• 45:39
  be in the pews, in the Bible, study in, you
• 45:42
  know, online and looking you eye to eye.
• 45:44
  So those things have been really wonderful for me to
• 45:47
  actually hear what people are still hung up
• 45:50
  on. Um, and then the other great thing is
• 45:54
  people still need the gospel.
• 45:55
  >> Loren: Yeah.
• 45:56
  >> Bethany: Just general, basic gospel. It
• 45:59
  still works. And
• 46:01
  that has been an amazing thing for me as a pastor
• 46:04
  to be like, you don't have to say anything creative in a
• 46:07
  sermon. You don't have to say anything remarkable. Just tell
• 46:10
  people about the gospel and what Jesus is.
• 46:13
  >> Loren: Mhm.
• 46:13
  >> Bethany: And that is. They. They still need it. They still need
• 46:16
  it. And that's been really great.
• 46:18
  >> Loren: Okay, I told you the last question, but let me ask one more quick
• 46:21
  one so you're mentioning Neptune. We talked
• 46:23
  about what Lemonade
• 46:26
  again. We've talked about how this is kind of a
• 46:29
  transition time in social media for me. I feel
• 46:32
  like constantly chasing after these platforms is just,
• 46:34
  like, exhausting because I'm like, oh, I gotta create
• 46:37
  one for myself. I gotta make one for future Christian. Blah, blah,
• 46:40
  blah. Like, what are. Like. I, uh, feel like
• 46:42
  Instagram is here to stay. Obviously. Facebook feels pretty
• 46:45
  solid. Who knows what. What is.
• 46:49
  What do you think? What are like, one or two? I can.
• 46:52
  >> Bethany: I would say where you are scrolling.
• 46:56
  Yeah, where you are scrolling is where you start.
• 46:59
  >> Loren: Okay.
• 47:00
  >> Bethany: Because, you know, the culture, like, missionary work. I knew the
• 47:03
  culture of TikTok. I knew the language, and then I started
• 47:05
  preaching in that culture. Um, if
• 47:08
  you're a Twitter person, if you're, you know, a blue
• 47:11
  sky person, start there.
• 47:13
  Um, really, you know, it's this whole
• 47:16
  idea of, like, you know, go. Go to the people. Go to where they
• 47:19
  are. If you enjoy that
• 47:21
  platform, then you're going to know why other people
• 47:24
  enjoy it. So you're going to create content that you
• 47:27
  would enjoy, and they will enjoy so your people will find
• 47:30
  you.
• 47:30
  >> Loren: So for churches and pastors, then it's not necessarily like we need to be on every
• 47:33
  platform. It's like one or two. We feel like you.
• 47:35
  >> Bethany: Please don't be on every platform. You will
• 47:38
  destroy yourself. Yeah. Yeah.
• 47:41
  >> Loren: All right, well, let's take a break. Uh,
• 47:44
  and again, what's the handle then? I usually
• 47:47
  ask folks title the book. So I guess we need to say, like, Bethany, what's your
• 47:49
  handle for folks to find you?
• 47:51
  >> Bethany: It's Rev Bethany everywhere. I've been very lucky
• 47:54
  that, um, someone else hasn't gotten on
• 47:56
  there. Uh, some platforms, there's like, a period, you know,
• 47:59
  rev period Bethany. But if you put in Rev
• 48:02
  Bethany, it'll. It'll come up. And, um, I think my
• 48:05
  picture everywhere is either me with the
• 48:07
  transgender stole on or me doing the Macarena
• 48:10
  in my collar, so
• 48:13
  you'll know it's me.
• 48:15
  >> Loren: All right, let's take a quick break.
• 48:20
  Okay.
• 48:20
  We're back with Reverend Bethany Peerbolt.
• 48:23
  Thank you for your time. I've really enjoyed the
• 48:25
  conversation, and I learned a lot here about
• 48:28
  Neptune and lemonade and all that.
• 48:32
  All right, uh, closing questions. You're welcome to take these as
• 48:35
  seriously or not as you'd like to
• 48:38
  Pope for a day or maybe, you know, I feel like I need
• 48:41
  to. I feel like I need to tweak these then.
• 48:45
  Uh, if the Pope had a TikTok
• 48:47
  account,
• 48:50
  what would or should the Pope Be
• 48:53
  tiktoking.
• 48:54
  >> Bethany: Yeah. I mean
• 48:56
  honestly my initial
• 48:59
  reaction is very like Catholic focused of
• 49:02
  like he needs to release all the information about
• 49:05
  all the sexual assault stuff.
• 49:06
  >> Loren: Like. Mhm.
• 49:07
  >> Bethany: If they think they're gonna make it through another couple
• 49:10
  decades, they need to get that scandal out of the way.
• 49:13
  Um, but I, I think just like the
• 49:16
  Pope being fun, like doing dances and laughing
• 49:19
  and showing that you can be this
• 49:22
  like big leader and you're still a person.
• 49:25
  Yeah.
• 49:26
  >> Loren: Okay, that's good. That was a good answer because I usually tell folks you can take it
• 49:29
  seriously or not. So you did both. That's good.
• 49:31
  >> Bethany: I did both. I'll do both. That's good.
• 49:33
  >> Loren: Um, okay, I'm going to kind of just like run with
• 49:36
  these and make these TikTok social
• 49:38
  media themed. What
• 49:41
  theologian or historical Christian figure would be the
• 49:44
  best follow? Again,
• 49:47
  you can do it just in general per platform.
• 49:49
  >> Bethany: What do you think Mr. Rogers?
• 49:52
  >> Loren: Okay.
• 49:52
  >> Bethany: I um. If I can get, if I get to heaven and
• 49:55
  he's there and he says that he's proud of me. Like he is definitely one of
• 49:58
  the ones that I think about because he was definitely
• 50:01
  a trailblazer in that like technology
• 50:03
  world and getting in front of people and like if he
• 50:06
  had social media he could
• 50:09
  really, really help some people. So
• 50:12
  Fred Rogers, I wish he could have been
• 50:15
  around for this.
• 50:16
  >> Loren: Okay, I feel like that's cheating because that's like the answer of
• 50:19
  all PC USA folks say so.
• 50:22
  >> Bethany: It is, it really is.
• 50:23
  >> Loren: Give me like, give me another like would
• 50:26
  like Paul. I feel like he'd just crush it on like
• 50:29
  you know, Twitter or some kind of like blue sky
• 50:32
  type tech space thing.
• 50:35
  I feel like Teresa Vavila would be like really depressing
• 50:38
  on any kind of deal platform.
• 50:42
  >> Bethany: Yeah.
• 50:43
  >> Loren: Any other thoughts?
• 50:46
  >> Bethany: I don't know, maybe like a, like a Marcus
• 50:49
  Borg just like blowing stuff up and saying
• 50:51
  outrageous things and okay. He would, he would get. I
• 50:54
  think he would love all the haters that would come in his comments and
• 50:57
  be like miracles are real and uh, all that
• 51:00
  kind of stuff. He would be fun.
• 51:02
  >> Loren: I mean, okay, I'm a, I'm a big
• 51:05
  Marcus Borg fan. I think he did allow in one of his books
• 51:08
  and he kind of allow for miracles.
• 51:12
  >> Bethany: My ah, my like always thought about him is
• 51:15
  always just like he believes there are miracles but
• 51:18
  they're not like these like paranormal
• 51:21
  like things like.
• 51:22
  >> Loren: Sure.
• 51:22
  >> Bethany: You know, like defeating the 5000 is like it is a
• 51:25
  human miracle that everybody either ate
• 51:28
  or passed along the food that they were planning to eat, you know, to
• 51:31
  someone else that is a human miracle for sure.
• 51:33
  >> Loren: Sure.
• 51:34
  >> Bethany: Um, but yeah, I mean I
• 51:36
  think I wish I could sit down with him
• 51:39
  and go through every single miracle and be like, yeah, okay, what
• 51:42
  about this one? Okay, but yeah, but what about this one? You
• 51:44
  know?
• 51:46
  >> Loren: Well, that's good. I have, I have strong
• 51:49
  emotional connection because that was like, his book was like
• 51:52
  kind of my branch or bridge,
• 51:54
  whatever you know, we want to use to, to
• 51:57
  find a more fuller, uh, inclusive faith.
• 52:00
  >> Bethany: Um, yeah, he's one of those like declutter. He's coming
• 52:03
  to the table and just like knocking everything off and being like,
• 52:06
  okay, now what are we putting back on the table? Yeah.
• 52:08
  >> Loren: Okay, what do you think? Again, I'm trying
• 52:11
  to think about these questions from a social media
• 52:13
  TikTok perspective. A, like if you had to
• 52:16
  guess, like which a, which social media
• 52:19
  platforms will exist in 5 to 10 years
• 52:22
  A and then, um, what
• 52:25
  do you think? B. What, what do you think? Like history will. How
• 52:28
  will history remember social media
• 52:30
  platforms? Mhm.
• 52:32
  >> Bethany: I mean Instagram is pretty proven that it can
• 52:35
  change with the times. YouTube is not going anywhere
• 52:38
  fast. Um, you know, I think
• 52:41
  Facebook is there until
• 52:44
  the Xers are
• 52:47
  gone. So um, I think, I
• 52:50
  think that's going to really die away.
• 52:52
  Um, you know, I don't know what's going to
• 52:55
  happen with these like, short form.
• 52:58
  I, I do think it could be uh, an
• 53:01
  Instagram reels, takes over,
• 53:03
  um, especially because it can,
• 53:06
  you know, go to different platforms, go to all these different, you know,
• 53:09
  threads and Facebook and whatever. That's a really easy place for a
• 53:12
  creator to be and then kind of branch out.
• 53:15
  Um, so I think those are going to be there. I think
• 53:18
  TikTok's here to stay. I mean I think it
• 53:20
  might change once capitalism
• 53:23
  gets in there, the ads are going to be even worse, you know,
• 53:26
  that kind of thing. But I think it's proven
• 53:29
  that it's beloved enough that it's going to
• 53:32
  be really hard to get rid of it for sure.
• 53:35
  Um, how will this moment
• 53:38
  be remembered? I really
• 53:40
  hope it will be a testament
• 53:43
  to
• 53:46
  the power of a, of the people's voice.
• 53:48
  When the government gets scared or wants to do something,
• 53:52
  um, to, to limit that, that
• 53:54
  people are gonna, we might joke about it,
• 53:57
  you might share memes about it, but we're gonna talk about it. We're not
• 54:00
  gonna let them just, you know, try to get rid of something
• 54:03
  without any evidence, um, which I think is the biggest problem
• 54:06
  in the, in the TikTok pan,
• 54:08
  um, case, uh,
• 54:10
  that the government was able to redact so much
• 54:13
  and Even the lawyers of TikTok didn't get to see those.
• 54:16
  Like to say it's top secret and say, like, just trust
• 54:19
  us, this isn't good. Like, uh, that's not
• 54:22
  how we do this. Um,
• 54:25
  it could be that that is remembered because it does go
• 54:28
  away, because we do have this season of, you know,
• 54:30
  authoritarianism. Um, but
• 54:33
  I am so confident in the American system that we will eventually
• 54:36
  get back to, like, okay, that's not what we
• 54:39
  do. Um, let's pull it back again. Um,
• 54:42
  it's a great question, right? It's a great question of
• 54:46
  how much, um, should the government be,
• 54:49
  you know, keeping us safe from foreign governments
• 54:51
  on these devices? And
• 54:54
  there are things that they know that I don't know.
• 54:57
  Um, but there needs to be more
• 54:59
  transparency in what they know and letting me know what they
• 55:02
  know. But I also think it'll be a
• 55:05
  time where
• 55:08
  we do get to talk to one another. We do
• 55:11
  get to know each other's stories. And so I think this
• 55:14
  will also be the beginning of an
• 55:16
  era where it's not
• 55:19
  a Wikipedia search, it's a person
• 55:22
  search.
• 55:22
  >> Loren: Interesting.
• 55:23
  >> Bethany: Let me hear this from a person. Yeah, And I think that will
• 55:26
  be a really great thing for humanity
• 55:29
  globally. Just that, um, we
• 55:32
  can hear the nuances of a, uh,
• 55:34
  person's experience.
• 55:36
  >> Loren: That's really interesting that you said that we needed. We need to
• 55:39
  end this, because I need to get off. But, uh, I'm
• 55:42
  just thinking, like, that is a really
• 55:44
  stark but great example of this
• 55:47
  kind of shift culturally from institutionalism to
• 55:50
  individualism. Like, Wikipedia is kind of like the
• 55:53
  last. Last, I think, or most
• 55:56
  recent kind of institution even. Even if it's a
• 55:59
  different kind of institution, it's populist,
• 56:02
  democratically led, but it's still like an institution where we
• 56:05
  know we can find
• 56:07
  semi, generally,
• 56:10
  generally solid, reliable information versus now, like you're
• 56:12
  suggesting. I think this is true. People go to
• 56:15
  their content or find a content creator to find
• 56:18
  that information. So that's really interesting you said that, um, last
• 56:21
  question here, because I do have to run.
• 56:23
  Um, what is something hopeful that, uh,
• 56:26
  you hope to see from social
• 56:29
  media and Christianity combined?
• 56:31
  >> Bethany: Yeah, I'm really hopeful, and I think it ties
• 56:34
  into that Wikipedia thing is like the Age of
• 56:37
  Enlightenment has taught us how to know
• 56:40
  something and to nail it down and to put it
• 56:43
  in black and white. And hopefully we
• 56:45
  are getting way beyond that
• 56:48
  and know that life is. There are gray areas,
• 56:51
  there are things that we, you know, it's true, but it's not
• 56:54
  true. You know, at the same time, And
• 56:57
  I think that will open up the world to
• 56:59
  spirituality. You know, we've had this age
• 57:02
  of we learn about physical health, we got doctors. We're in this
• 57:05
  age now of, like, mental health and our mind, spiritual
• 57:08
  health has got to be next. And so I think
• 57:12
  opening up and realizing more that there's more tension
• 57:14
  about life than just knowing something. Uh, that
• 57:17
  there's more in scripture than just what it says. It
• 57:20
  has to have experience infused with it for it
• 57:23
  to truly be alive and truly be meaningful. And I think we
• 57:26
  are getting there.
• 57:28
  Um, the spiritual but not religious movement, I think,
• 57:31
  is getting to the point where we can be, like, Christian but
• 57:34
  not religious or something. You know, we can nail it down a little bit
• 57:37
  more. But I'm really excited to see how
• 57:40
  the world, um, starts to embrace spirituality.
• 57:43
  >> Loren: Well, this is, this is great. I really appreciate your thoughts
• 57:46
  here. Again, give your handles. Give your website.
• 57:48
  Mostly it's handles, right?
• 57:50
  >> Bethany: Yeah. Rev. Bethany. Uh, Rev-Bethany
• 57:53
  or, uh, slash. What is the little line it'll be in
• 57:56
  your notes. Dot uh. Com is the website. You can also
• 57:59
  find our tapestry there as well. Um, to join
• 58:02
  and, um, be part of an online Christian community.
• 58:05
  >> Loren: Okay. Find her on all the socials then. Really, uh,
• 58:08
  enjoy this conversation.
• 58:10
  Bethany, Uh, I always leave people with a
• 58:13
  word of peace. We always leave people with a word of peace. So may God's
• 58:16
  peace be with you.
• 58:17
  >> Bethany: And also with you. Thank you so much.
• 58:26
  >> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
• 58:29
  The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
• 58:32
  Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
• 58:34
  questions, comments, and ideas for future
• 58:37
  episodes. Visit our
• 58:38
  website@future-christian.com and
• 58:41
  find the Connect with us form at the bottom of the
• 58:44
  page to get in touch with Martha or Loren.
• 58:47
  But before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to
• 58:50
  the POD to leave a review. It really helps us get
• 58:53
  this out to more people. Thanks and go in peace.