Latest / TPOD- TTRPGs in Taipei / Episode 2: Michelle Chiang talks about nerd culture in Taipei

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Episode 2: Michelle Chiang talks about nerd culture in Taipei · TPOD- TTRPGs in Taipei

• speaker-0: Well that's just about gonna do it for me this week. I've been your host, Vorhak, and you've been listening to the Countdown here on WTPOD, the only home for rock and roll in the Western Reaches. Stay tuned to WTPOD after the show, ladies and gentlemen, to listen to our new host, Cam interview Michelle Chang about her time hosting a radio show in Taiwan and what she thinks about playing TTRPGs around here. And remember, Anytime you have some artifacts, ladies and gentlemen, that you may find somewhere, Uncle Vorthak doesn't ask where it came from, he just asks how much you want for it. So come on down to Vorthak's Emporium with those artifacts. And ending the countdown this week, my goblins and goblinets. What could it be other than Ochi Blue by the Tom Cats? Take it away. Yeah, all right, and thank you, Vorhak. jeez, that guy's such a b He's right though. I did go on RTI's Geek Out with Michelle, and she came on Teapod to talk about her experience playing games around here and how she got into gaming and everything like that. I had a real nice time talking with her, and I hope you have a nice time listening to it. Really she was a prime interview target for me because she's been doing something very similar to Teapod for quite some time, so I thought there's a lot I could learn from her and Well, yeah, listen and find out. Hm. well I'm here now talking to Michelle Chang. thank you Michelle for joining us on the show today. Yeah, speaker-1: Thanks for having me. speaker-0: yeah. Now I don't know too much about you. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself, please? speaker-1: Well well my name's Michelle and I've been a l longtime nerd at this point. I am forty three. I began my nerd journey technically, closeted as a child. wow. But you know how it is. Are you from Taiwan? No, actually. I was born and raised in California in the Bay Area. Uhhuh. And I moved here when I was a teenager, went to a few years of high school here, graduated, then went back to the States to Boston. was there for a decade and then came back here. So it was like a yo-yo situation. My time in California really was spent kind of the b the best way to describe it is as a as like the weird kid on the on the on the fringes who wanted to be cool but I was always reading and no one showed me the nerd ropes really. Mm-hmm. And then it was only until here in Taiwan I met more friends. That were totally cool playing card games of various kinds at lunch at in the cafeteria. Right. And then I went back to Boston, tried to be cool again for a little bit, came back to Taiwan, and that's actually when my friend Eric. Yeah, shout out to Eric. Mm-hmm. Held my hand and said, It's okay, Michelle. Let's be nerdy, and then DM'd my first d Dungeons and Dragons game. speaker-0: That's cool. You answered so many of my questions, so I you really cut my script in half. speaker-1: I can elaborate on all of that. speaker-0: Okay, that's good. I actually can can relate to that some. Like having grown up in in rural Alabama things just don't make it there. Like culture does not make it out there. So like just culture. Yeah, yeah. Like I I didn't discover that you could program a computer 'til like the year twenty ten or something like that. speaker-1: Wow, okay. speaker-0: That that's sort a joke. But but yeah, yeah. Only sort of. So so any nerd culture is yeah, didn't make it out out that far. But I was still like yeah, same thing, sort of playing video games and not telling too many people about it. So wha what what influenced you? How did you get into it then? You say you were a closeted nerd, so what was what was big to you back then? speaker-1: Books. okay. What sort of books? It I was a library kid. My mom and my mom would always be taken to me to the library at least once a week. Mm-hmm. And kind of my my parents are first generation immigrants. Mm-hmm. So they didn't know what I was reading. I was just picking up books that had, you know, like looks like cartoons on the cover, like elves and stuff like that on the cover. So it looked fine. even though maybe I was eight and shouldn't have been reading Stephen King. right, right. So the but this is kind of Stephen gave me an example, but like, you know, Tolkien various various authors that that were probably writing for kind of an adult level. Mm-hmm. I was getting into and that actually is the reason why I wound up heavy into, you know, creative writing in English. Because that's cool. Right? Like to it was it was intoxicating, it's a for lack of a better word. To kind of touch dip your feet into these worlds and that's really where The whole, you know, T T R P G scene, all of these n I use it I use escapism this word a lot. But especially when this goes for a lot of people, when real life is unpleasant. Mm-hmm. Anywhere from just mundane things like housework and bills and stuff, that fantasy world, whichever one that you're currently into, is just there and you can just pop in and have a fantastic time, flip the page. speaker-0: What do you think on this Vade, what do you think about T T RPGs as therapy? People say D and D is therapy. What do you think about that speaker-1: One thousand percent. speaker-0: idea? Yeah, yeah. Have you tried any journaling games, like solo journaling games? No. I I speaker-1: And I have heard of them. speaker-0: Yeah, I've I've done a few and they are like I it got way deeper than I thought, like really quick. speaker-1: That's what I hear. And and you do have to be vulnerable. You have to be open to being able to, you know, op yeah, I guess, expose yourself. speaker-0: For a writer, you know like it's a you gotta you it's gotta be real, right? Like nobody's gonna read your writing if it's just it has to be it has to cut deep, right? So speaker-1: If it's superficial. Yeah. Yeah. or rather, it doesn't have to cut deep. I mean, there are plenty of writers that, you know, people read beach reads, they're just like a fun time. Yeah, yeah. But the most impactful to that, right? speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. They have to have truth in Yeah, yeah. So yes, books were the first step of how I stepped into this universe of nerddom. Mm-hmm. And I then when Nerd Friends found me where I found Nerd Friends, they were like There's so much cooler stuff that's really like these books that you like. So that's kinda how that w speaker-0: Well that's that's really cool. Now you you say you're forty three, so you you like barely miss Harry Potter, is that right? speaker-1: no, I read it. I was I was a university student and very into the Harry Potter year. speaker-0: Okay, see how he's like the same age as Harry Potter every time a book came out. I I I I I speaker-1: That must have been great. speaker-0: don't wanna comment on it here. I now I hate it, right? speaker-1: Now okay, now we don't want to give money to certain individuals. That's right. But in your experience like growing up with this with this it's a world of you know, wizarding and magic and speaker-0: I think it was at the time it was almost too cool. It was like it was so good that that you know, like I said, no culture made it to Alabama. I like didn't want to even look out of of like Hogwarts. I like, who cares? Like I can just read another Harry Potter book and then so I didn't really look for too much else. speaker-1: I I'm I'm jealous because if you got to grow up with them, it's it's it's also neat how the they're written in a way that the style of writing matures as the kids grow older. So that the final book, The Deathly Hollows, is actually kinda it's in a in the style of an adult novel. So sort of, sort of. speaker-0: sort of. Yeah, yeah. That may be true. speaker-1: Still still very, you know, open for children to read. Yeah, yeah. but it you can you can tell you know, the graduation of it, which is pretty neat. Yeah. That's true. That's true. But no, we don't like giving certain people money anymore. Yeah. Yeah. speaker-0: All that yeah. speaker-1: But we can still appreciate the experience that we had. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, that's that's probably true. I think I I had a friend when I was maybe twenty or so who had that big Harry Potter tattoo on her like arm or something. And now now I wonder like, come on, Angela, like I hope I hope that hope you don't regret that. But you know, maybe maybe we all have tattoos that that that we regret. Okay, I'll move on from that. Yeah. nice. no offense to you then. speaker-1: I've got the Deathly Hallows on my arm. speaker-0: Okay, well that's cool. Now I I've put my foot in my mouth on my own show. speaker-1: I don't know. I had like an existential crisis when I found out, you know, the whole turf business. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: and I had already like had stuff permanently inked on my arm. But then y you do have to think about things can't exist separate from each other. And just because I loved the experience of these books doesn't mean that you know, her be her behavior doesn't invalidate that experience. speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, th there's a difference between the author and the and the in the art. Right, and and you know, people love Lovecraft, you know, Call of Cthulhu, but Lovecraft was like a terrible racist or whatever. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. speaker-0: You gotta be able to maybe draw the line somewhere. I don't know. I think the only tattoo regret I have is my first tattoo I got like I I wanted the tattoo artist to put it somewhere and he's like, No, that's too good of a spot. Put this one somewhere else and he put it like on my ankle, and so I went back not on my ankle, but I went back to my to my you know, where I was living at the time, my friend's like, you got an ankle tat today and so I got made fun of for having an ankle tattoo. speaker-1: Judgment. What is judgment? speaker-0: That's what I'm saying. It was like, well what if that's where I w you anyway. Right, whatever. so what was your first you know, back to RPGs what was your first speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. speaker-0: RPG? Dungeons and Dragons. speaker-1: Dungeons and Dragons. Okay, okay. this was p year was a tomb. Actual twenty nine? Two thousand nine. speaker-0: But you're almost at four point f D D four point. speaker-1: That was four point Yeah. and my friend was extremely kind. Eric Al, you shout out, thank you. he basically calculated because I'm okay, my worst ever subject is math. speaker-0: No way. speaker-1: Just crippling. It just it's I look at the numbers and it's I basically, you know, poo my pants. It's awful. speaker-0: Gotta go teach math when this when this interview is over. speaker-1: I'm so sorry. It's okay. I'm your worst student. So he was kind enough to calculate out almost everything. So all I had to do was roll the die and tell him the number that's on the die. Obviously I I've come a long way. right, right. Yeah, yeah. But that was my first step into a D four four. at fourth edition. Yeah, yeah. speaker-0: I remember when that game came out, I think I like downloaded a copy off the internet and was like, We gotta play this game everybody, 'cause we were playing Pathfinder then. Yeah. speaker-1: The I wouldn't roll up even. Nausea the Tiefling Rogue. speaker-0: Nausea. Yes. that's a a name. speaker-1: Yeah, well she was yeah what do they say about characters when you roll up? The first one is who you wanna be. speaker-0: that might be true. Is that what it is? I don't even know what my first D D character was now that you say that that's funny. Yeah, yeah. speaker-1: And the second one is who you are. Uhhuh. Or whatever. But I'm not sure. R listeners, you should write Cam and and correct me if I'm wrong. But the the first character was actually embarrassingly murdery. Yeah. Sharpening I speaker-0: That's who you want to be. I I think that's what okay, I think that's everybody's first D D character, is the rogue that sharpens knives all the time. It's almost easy to do. Like a or that or a barbarian, 'cause you're just like, I just swing a big thing and hit people with it and that's yeah. That's as far as the role playing goes. speaker-1: My friend, who wanted to try Dungeons and Dragons and to be fair, the fifth edition is easier to try as far as flavor wise. Right, right. and not not any less crunchy in some ways, but we all advi I specifically advised her you might want to start melee and what that means is like stab stab. Yeah, yeah. Smash smash. she d decided on Sorcerer and I'm like, Are you sh you speaker-0: No, you got a lot of reading to do. speaker-1: got a lot of reading? You got a lot of reading. It's the There are certain decisions you can make that are crunchier and some there are not so much. But yes, research is always nice to get into. I wasn't I never had a problem with that. I loved reading. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, of course. I I think you couldn't really be into this hobby if you just hated it, right? If you didn't like to read, yeah. Right. What are you doing with a pen and paper game anyway? Go out go outside and I don't know, play with something else. Yeah. speaker-1: Although Bouldersgate has done wonders. That's true. Mm-hmm. For people I have watched playthroughs. speaker-0: but you haven't played it. man, I haven't played it. Baldur's Gate Three was so much fun. I speaker-1: My dinky computer can't do it. speaker-0: I played the old ones in the past and those are good, but Baldur's Gate three I I don't know what it is. I I honestly think the magic of that game just comes from like the when there are scenes between characters, there's like you know, the camera sorta goes to their face, you can see them talking and reacting and stuff. Because the gameplay aside from that isn't di any different from any other, you know, C RPG in the past. But there is something magic about that game that is just it's too much speaker-1: Well done. speaker-0: I I go to Louisa every day to study, right? And one day I was sitting there drinking my coffee and doing my my whatever I was doing. And this girl comes next to me and she sits down, she opens up her laptop and like opens up Baldur's Gate. And it was like when it was really popular, you know, the crazy, you're playing Baldur's Gate, so cool and she like looked at me and like closed speaker-1: no. speaker-0: sorry. But yeah, yeah, I didn't mean to to like yuck her yum or whatever. But but I think maybe it's you know, it it maybe it's personal or something she didn't want me to see that she's trying to romance Gail or whatever in the game. So speaker-1: Sure. speaker-0: Yeah, don't know. Maybe maybe she's going after Shadow Heart. I don't know. But anyway, yeah, I I just thought it was really funny. It's like I okay to that. Is there something in my teeth? Do I smell funny? Or d was it just that I said hello at all? speaker-1: Look, okay. I think we should all let our freaks freak flags fly. That's what I think. We should always be letting our freak flags fly. It's it there's no embarrassment around it. I write romance based on you know, like Dungeons and Dragons type of lore. So I romantis that it's cool, it's always speaker-0: Romanticy. Awesome. That's awesome. Yeah, and and I think I think at some point in the past my ability to hide my freak flag was just utterly broken. So so yeah, I got I got nothing to do. speaker-1: Absolutely. The nerd community has always surprised me in the way that, it's really welcoming. speaker-0: I think there's a dichotomy there, yeah, go on. speaker-1: Well, I guess my own personal experience. It's like every every group that I've stumbled upon, the most recent one being the Magic the Gathering people, Thursday nights at Game Square. Shout out to you guys. You guys are awesome. being a noob who does not know how to play with a brand new deck. I've heard that some pla in some places MTG people can be super not to, you know, poo on people, but you know, kinda gatekeepy. speaker-0: Absolutely. speaker-1: Yeah, especially to female players. speaker-0: yeah. speaker-1: Gender comes into it. But I did not experience that whatsoever. They held my hand, they were a little nice, a little bit too nice to me as far as like withholding, you know, hitting me in the face. So but but yeah, it was it was a great experience. And I was at T Pop and I at that point, not my first con or something, but it's always super lovely to stand in the midst of all these people who love the same things that you do. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And and I wanna say that that's that's sort of the goal with T Pop. Like you know when when I used to go to the store to buy my magic cards or play D and D back in the day, right? It was this old store I I don't wanna say its name, I don't if they're still around or not, and I don't wanna to shit on or whatever. But but like their their lights were were bad. It was like one or two fluorescent lights in this big like warehouse with with like Yeah, they speaker-1: Slicker. speaker-0: flickered and there's like stacks of books, you know, comic books and and games and action figures. And I love the place. As a as a fourteen year old white boy with enough money in my pocket to buy like five packs of magic cards that day, I thought it was a magical place. but but like the shop owner like made weird jokes sometimes and as a sixteen year old I was like, that's funny And now I look back and like, that's that's like that's atrocious speaker-1: no. speaker-0: And and like no wonder nobody comes in here and it always kinda smelled funny. So anyway, w I don't wanna to have shit on this place anymore. But like I was saying with teapop I wanna make I wanna make it an open space. You know, that is that is like welcoming to people. Like you say, it is Yeah, a a group hub. And and speaker-1: That's right, that's right. speaker-0: just is is more, I don't know, hygienic or well lit or whatever than than like the the the dungeons that I spent so much time in in in the past. speaker-1: Love how you mentioned the hygiene. speaker-0: Well there is a there is that thing like I wanna say fifteen years ago now where like a guy went to a magic tournament and took pictures with everybody's underwear that he saw. have you never seen that? Yeah, he he he like squats down with prayer hands and like has somebody take his picture anytime you see somebody's butt crack. no, it was hilarious. speaker-1: This sounds hilarious. I do need to see this. speaker-0: It was so funny. Yeah, i and like in one tournament, like one big magic tournament, he probably like a hundred pictures and it's it's like a big fat guy with a neck beard and like a fedora on and he's doing prayer hints and all these butt cracks. And I I think he got banned from like all Wizards of the Coast related events for like two years or something. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. And I guess that's not hygiene, that's just clothing. But yeah. I'm ever since then I pulled my pants a little Mm because I was afraid I was gonna be on there. speaker-1: Right, a li just a little. consider the high waisted pants. Yeah, yeah. speaker-0: Look at me now. Yeah. That's how I'm going. speaker-1: But I I guess also, in in more modern times, as the culture has become more mainstream, there has been I guess more people who are, you know, mm, they what they want to expand the community. They're glad that this is happening. It's it's definitely positive. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, that that's something I want to think about too. But to to sort of get back to what I was thinking, do you think that that sci fi and fantasy as they are in America or in Europe are different than that in Taiwan? Do you think that they're the that they're sort of the same? speaker-1: Yeah. s if we're specifically talking about well let's do both in turn. But sci fi, then the sci fi here is very heavily like Japanese influence. Yeah, yeah. Because obviously listeners are familiar, I'm just gonna start dropping names. Like stuff like Gundam or Evangelion and things like this have have they're still really, you know, foundation stones in nerd culture here. Mm-hmm. Like you can't stumble into, you know, the the underground mall un underneath the main station, right? Yeah, yeah. Or I love that place so much. This is so much things. speaker-0: But it is like a bunch of evil statues. speaker-1: And if you look the obviously manga and anime and things heavily influence that. So science fiction in the in the w I guess I'm just gonna lump everybody together in the West. Obviously then you start thinking about Star Wars, Star Trek, yeah. And then speaker-0: There's so many strains of sci fi I guess. It's it's a it's a big thing to say like, it's one yeah. Anyway, go on. speaker-1: Yeah, but yeah, I'm I'm getting really like specifically I guess advanced space science fiction or something. But yeah, fantasy wise, fantasy when we think when I think about it, the immediate thing that comes to mind is stuff like Lord of the Rings. Mm-hmm. speaker-0: Do you think that's that's a part of like the ch the Taiwanese like popular conception of fantasy then? speaker-1: But if you say fantasy here, sometimes you're gonna get three kingdoms. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. Or like like Taoist like like cultivation. speaker-1: Right, things like that. Fantasy, yeah. So a journey to the West or whatever it is. the and when I have actually only been able to watch and not participate in, you know, playthroughs of of RPGs here. But people have taken, for example, Dungeons and Dragons mechanics and then applied more of a of a East Asian or Asian, you know, South South Asian or whatever it is, flavor to it. Yeah. Which is wonderful. speaker-0: Yeah, I think there are some games that that try to natively do that. But I think that is a good a good like application of it or something like that. Yeah, 'cause it 'cause fantasy as it is in D and D is like the European medieval you know, dragon and European medieval life. And and so to think that that that like a world where anything could be possible and there's magic and there's dragons and there's all this stuff is just Europe again, but now with dragons is is a really sorta stupid idea. Yeah, yeah. It could be it could be anything. speaker-1: Stupid. Exactly. Magic exists And and and oddly, dinosaurs dinosaurs I think inspired inspired the myth of dragons in almost every culture around the world. So d dragons exist. Yeah, yeah. So might as well have have include all the cultures. speaker-0: Yeah, that's that's right. and yeah, yeah, I think that's true. So I I don't really know. I I think I think I've seen some like products that you know, like D and D like third edition books not third edition, third party books that try and put in that but yeah, I I guess Yeah, yeah. speaker-1: Bringing in more stuff. speaker-0: I g I guess ultimately though, from from my perspective, fantasy and sci fi here are are just really different. it it's hard to find like exactly the the flavor of fantasy that I'm looking for here, even though I'm the one saying, it shouldn't exist or you know, but but yeah, I think it's hard to find. I I tried to read a a Qing Shao Shua recently, like The Legend of the Sun Knight or something, and it was so sophomoric. I I couldn't really read it. It was so so very like high school boy coded that I I didn't enjoy reading it very much. Yeah. Maybe I'm maybe I'm putting that on a speaker-1: I don't know it. But yeah, yeah. I mean everybody in any language, I'm sure there's books that are kind of c you can't get through speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: I'm gonna hot topic. I'm gonna trigger some people when I said I I really couldn't read Redwall very well. I speaker-0: I my mom was a librarian and I like grew up in the library and she had Red Wall and somehow I just never touched it. I just never ever touched it. speaker-1: I guess there's something about the pro the prose, the style of writing. I c I couldn't get into it as much as, you know, I think back in the day the first ones were like Dean Koontz, that kind of mm, easy reading, beach level reading. So yeah. speaker-0: Hm. I've got a kid now and and I think maybe I may get him to read Red Wall when the time comes. He's it's it's some years off. He's he's still pretty small. So what do you think about the the hobby in Taiwan, like tabletop gaming as as an industry, as something people do? Is it growing? Is there energy there? Is there potential there? Or is it sort of at the is it as big and as as speaker-1: As it's gonna get? No, not at all. I definitely think there's a lot of room for it to get much bigger. both in I on the Taiwanese side and with the expat community that's here, to you know, refer to Top, I was surprised that it was small as it was. Not not not not insulting, but it was a microcontrol. speaker-0: I've heard that before, it's okay. It's okay, it's my show, I can make jokes about it. Go on, go on. speaker-1: But yeah, I'm excited to see how big it can get 'cause just from like the just from learning about I learned about it kinda last minute. Mm-hmm. from a post I think it was in Taipei Ladies or something. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, the guy probably put it on Facebook. speaker-1: Right, put it on Facebook and I was like, my goodness, this is happening. None of my friends know about it. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. speaker-1: so just by I guess just word of mouth, I've always said that expats in Taiwan are just separated by one degree. Mm-hmm. If you speaker-0: No th that's absolutely true. But we all know this one Korean surfer guy actually. His name is Choi. speaker-1: Right. But we're all separated by one degree and if you get if you if you get the word out it can be much bigger than than than like the the building that you've rented out. speaker-0: Yeah, I I was thinking at the time that really thirty people was like the maximum, but no I'm like, Well that was dumb. Yeah. speaker-1: It wasn't dumb. It would have been a much bigger, you know, monkey to wrangle. speaker-0: Well no, dumb dumb to think that thirty like is the number of D and D players in Taiwan, basically. I think that was the foolish idea of say, okay, well there's more people than that here. speaker-1: So yeah, the no, definitely not anywhere near its maximum potential. I've mentioned this also before that it's weirdly underground in the local community. The the I don't know why. Do they do they f fear judgment? Are they are are th because I'm far I identify far more as an expat, as I guess an American as embarrassing as it is. But right? speaker-0: I try not to say it out loud either, yeah. speaker-1: So than than Taiwanese. but And so I don't really know culturally is it like i is it embarrassing to play these games? I don't think so. speaker-0: I I wouldn't think so 'cause there's so many things that people do that are just as like goblin mode or whatever you want to call it. You know, so many like unwashed otaku hobbies that people do. speaker-1: Exactly. There's a whole underground mall devoted to otaku hobbies and and speaker-0: Everybody reads manga like all over the place. So so it's speaker-1: So it can't be there can't be that kind of stigma around it. Yeah, yeah. So why are they so hard to find? speaker-0: Yeah, I I wonder as well. And and I mean even to to push it further, like like those city buses have like advertisements for fantasy games on your phone and stuff. So so like it is you know, fantasy a and sci fi as a as a topic here are sort of all over the place. And so I don't know why it wouldn't be more popular. speaker-1: Is there like a barrier between activities that for example, phone games, video games, reading mango or anime, watching anime, by yourself in the privacy of your own home or whatnot, is d is I guess preferable to meeting a group of people? Mm-hmm. That might be a thing. Stage fright, non con this culture is very non confrontational. speaker-0: I will say that about about Taiwanese people as I understand th they are not it's not even non confrontational, just maybe more shy speaker-1: The shine speaker-0: I I don't know. I I say that I'm shy, but maybe my shy is a little different. speaker-1: you're not shy. I'm absolutely shy, but speaker-0: But it might be a little different than than what other people think of Sha. speaker-1: Yeah. well the yeah. I like I've introduced a couple of people who are interested in, you know, playing one shots to some kind of T T R PG and they've always been super hesitant about what they want to do in the game. And that's kind of I guess a lot of people go through that where they feel reluctant to express their ideas and they just because, you know, Todd over there is really great at voices and they they feel it kind of inadequate in a way. speaker-0: I could see that, yeah. Yeah. and and I think the the word that they always use about RPGs is it's like strategic infinity or something like that. So like, you know, what's the what's the the space of decisions you can make at any point in time? It's practically infinite. Yeah. We're like in a video game, it's like well you can walk to the shopkeeper and press A, you know, and that's it. But I I think that maybe that that can cause some like paralysis. speaker-1: Paralysis? Yes. speaker-0: But but I I wouldn't know. I I don't maybe yeah, to say that that's why Taiwanese people don't play a lot of D and D is speaker-1: It does it does require a qu a substantial amount of creativity. speaker-0: Yeah, but but people have that. I mean. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I I I don't know why it's not popular. I it's something that I think about sometimes Yeah I teach math and physics. speaker-1: You're a teacher. Do you teach math? And physics? I I taught English for a spell, as we all do as expats in Taiwan for a little bit. speaker-0: that's over, yeah, for me. speaker-1: So the I I did notice when we were doing creative writing, mm-hmm, quote unquote. is that a lot of the kids have a l trouble actually pulling ideas from you know, just unusual ideas. The the creative bone needs more e the muscle. Creative muscle needs more exercise. Yeah. So that might be part of it. Like speaker-0: I taught a science fiction class at a school I used to work at in Taiwan and and yeah, getting them to write science fiction, even when I was trying to give them a procedure, like this is the first step and this is the next step, you know, to develop your story, do this. It was hard to get them to take a very first step. And you know, that was fourteen year old boys, so maybe they're like, writing's dumb or you know, they'd rather like hit stuff with clubs. speaker-1: Mm. Could be, could be. Mm. Could be that. but yes, I think p that muscle, yeah, as as with any other talent skill, you need to develop it. So speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. speaker-1: that's unfortunate. But I do think that especially as people here become more open, you start to see you're you're seeing it in various other hobbies. For example, I also scuba dive. Mm-hmm and Me too. Scuba in a way. It's so good. speaker-0: is my favorite thing in the world. speaker-1: Totally all But but the but just watching the industry expand of people just getting out to outdoor, you know, sports and hobbies and things, not being afraid to go try th new things, I think that's going to apply across the board to all countries. speaker-0: Probably so. Okay, I I said no more scuba diving talk, but actually speaker-1: But please, no, no. speaker-0: I am I'm I'm the type of snobby person that when I get to a dive site and there's people there, I'm like, there's so many people here. They're ruining the environment. Like you're not supposed to go to Lanyu. I'm supposed to be a Lan Yu all by myself. Yeah. Why speaker-1: I don't know why. speaker-0: I'm like that. but yeah, yeah, that is that is a hobby that or a a space that like every time I go diving it seems like there's more people than there were last time. So that's true. speaker-1: Yeah, Taiwanese people are really embracing th things that I have never seen them embrace before. speaker-0: I heard that it was from COVID that like you couldn't a lot of people stopped being able to travel internationally, so they started to pa ba you, you like climb the climb the mountains and so like the mountains became more popular. Maybe maybe school Yeah, yeah. that that's a good cure. what about like board gaming is being in Taiwan? speaker-1: Yes. Yeah, yeah. that's that's exploded everywhere? speaker-0: Yeah, that's true. That's true. But but I think Taiwan isn't even like Taiwan's not lagging behind. Taiwan it like produces board games. Taiwan has like board game creators. There's Yeah, conventions, speaker-1: Conventions. speaker-0: that's right. There's there's the board game creators store and and like you know, community, I forget where it is. Yeah. but there is, you know, there's even a college program for for making board games I think in Taiwan. speaker-1: Part of it is the proximity to manufacturing. speaker-0: Right. More to it than that. speaker-1: Yes. so people who have ideas actually can make them into into a real thing, like reality. but I do think okay. Specifically Taipei. I'm gonna I'm gonna blame Taipei for some of this. We all live in small houses where not all of us, but a lot of us live in little tiny houses where this maybe not even a dining table. Mm-hmm. And no coffee thing. You a you a sofa and you got a T V and you have a bed, more or less. This is how it is. So because spaces at a premium in in a city that's so dense. So board game cafes are lovely. Yeah, yeah. They're gathering spaces to hang out with friends. And y yeah, th of course you should you should pay money to the establishment by buying food and drink or whatever they're selling. but I think that's part of the reason why they gained popularity so quickly here. Mm-hmm. As is their social events. speaker-0: That that's actually a a topic that I like think about in terms of or you know, about gaming in in Taiwan. It's like what space do we actually use for it physically and like how do we make it happen? obviously you know, like you said, manufacturing is here, but not like English hobby book manufacturing. So anytime you wanna get like D D book really? speaker-1: Sure there is. speaker-0: Yeah. I think when you wanna get a D and D book imported to Taiwan. you have to import it, right? Yeah. It's it you can't just like go to Chungpin and buy speaker-1: Th that's true. if you're listening to Sem Ping you should really import some of these because dude there is a market for it by speaker-0: The shipping and taxes I pay on RPG books, like if my wife knew she would be kind of upset at me, so I just try to not say it out loud. speaker-1: We're we're not gonna mention that at all. speaker-0: Cut this one out. speaker-1: Yeah. But the manufacturing is here. So if you had an idea and if you wrote the book then you can find the printer. Yeah, yeah. things here are fairly affordable and yeah, sourceable here. Mm-hmm. So that part is pretty cool, which is I think why the creation part of the industry is prevalent in Taiwan. It's it's very it's it's if you go to the conventions, there's a lot of Taiwan made stuff. speaker-0: Right, right. Yeah. speaker-1: Which is cool. Very good. All the power through them. speaker-0: Absolutely. speaker-1: But yeah, in in the US I've had a couple of friends, I have one who's in Chile who w had this has awesome ideas for games and he develops them, he he handmakes things in order to play test it. And I hooked him up with a couple of manufacturers here so he could actually make That's really cool. But the but yeah, there are no resources for him on that side to do that. So yeah, that's that's some of the differences I've seen anyway. Mm-hmm. But yeah. speaker-0: Do you think is there anything in in this this sort of culture in Taiwan that excites you currently that you're like, this is a good thing, an exciting thing? speaker-1: so many things though. I I am excited by just the increase in popularity of this entire thing. Okay. for example, the Dungeons and Dragons movie that came out a couple years ago on our Yeah, we watched speaker-0: that in Taipei. speaker-1: that here, it came out here. and everyone that I went to s watch it with, everyone that I've heard watched it, including locals, thought that it was a raging good time. Yes, it was it was well made. Of course, I personally walked into it with the lowest possible expectations. We're gonna just shit on the previous D and D movies. speaker-0: That that's what I thought too. I saw that in the Mario movie and like back to back and I like, The Mario movie's gonna be really good and the D movie's gonna be dumb and I left the theater like, Well that was that was just reverse. The Mario movie was bad, the D movie was great. speaker-1: And we're going to completely ignore what Hasbro was doing with Visit of the Coast and it was there was a lot of I think they the free licensed removement or whatever. yeah yeah. I removement, that is a word now. Removement. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Well i in the end I think the the OGL scandal was a good thing, but but at the time it was bad. speaker-1: But it brought more o you know, attention to a lot. Yeah, yeah. But but that that movie is an example of things heading in a more mainstream angle. Yeah, absolutely. And people, you know, being free feeling more free to enjoy this genre. And that's just the one genre. So, yeah, all of the other ones that are being made more popular, Cyberpunk is one of them that a lot that I've seen large growth in. Because you sci-fi, right? And it can be super, you know, reskinned or flavored in very in various cultural ways. The the whole Japan take on it is fantastic. So the yeah, but that that is really what what makes me most excited. The I may or may not have launched the dice company at the wrong time. I'm actually gonna straight up say it. I did launch it at the wrong time. No, not at all. No, no, I've totally made my peace with it. I am analytical in a More so about it than emotional. speaker-0: This is one reason you know so much about manufacturing, is that right? So you get the dice made speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, I own Phoenixdice dot com, which has been taken offline, but I may or may not put it back online at some point. so so this is how bad it was. I opened it in twenty nineteen. Mm-hmm. Saw really great sales. Covet hit. Mm-hmm. And it's like a g a gut punch. All shipping stopped. Right? speaker-0: right. speaker-1: People stopped playing Traditionally, meaning meeting up with friends online or whatever. Yeah. They want to play online and obviously when you do that then there's digital dice in the form of apps or bots or whatever that and then people don't need real dice, even though I'm gonna say digital dice have no soul. Okay. speaker-0: Digital dice have missiles. I actually I need to complain to you. I bought a defective product. Yeah. You know, I I bought some Phoenix dice right before running that Shadow Dark game at T Pop and I was using the D six all game in in Shadow Dark, the DM rolls the D six every couple of turns to check for random encounters. I see. And that thing gave me fours, fives, and sixes all night long. I only get random encounters on a one. And I got not a single one. I probably rolled it twenty times, I got no one. And i the even the the table was starting to laugh at me. I'd roll, I'd be like, Nothing happens again. Nothing happens. speaker-1: That one was probably meant for a player. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, I think it was. It was it's a fine dice, you know, it turns out. Later it gave me a couple of ones in a row and I was like, Okay, if you say so. Anyway, tell me more about Phoenix Dice. speaker-1: Yeah. No, no worries, no worries. The so I opened it and then COVID hit and then it was it was a fight to get the sales back up and of course with the everyone remembers, it was a bad time for all but I I'm I actually feel bad about complaining about it because people were dying and I'm like speaker-0: My dice company isn't selling it. Yeah. I'm sorry, no that's a legitimate complaint. I I think that's a legitimate complaint. speaker-1: But yeah, it was a fight and then we started to see a comeback of people who like shiny things and then a certain a big orange dummy was elected and then we're seeing the primary market that my primary market was is is the English speaking world. Right. And the vast majority of that is the United States. And then when the United States started limiting you know, packages going in, taxing things it it got to it got bad to the point where I could no longer afford to ship that suc speaker-0: Duck. speaker-1: to that location. Yeah, that really sucks. a and still keep the dice affordable. Mm-hmm. And also people are living day to day worrying about making rent and buying food. I don't want them in that case to buy my dice. It's it's speaker-0: Right, right. speaker-1: it's not I understand the escapism and stuff, but when people are living in this in this way I completely understand how a dice company d should just not you know it's cool. It's I'm I'm cool with it. Right, right. If everything improves in hopefully the close the near future then I may I might relaunch it. Especially with the Asian countries now coming up and finding that they love T T R P G speaker-0: That's right, that's right. So I I I know that in China they play like what Juben Sha, is that right? Is that is that something that's popular here, do you think? speaker-1: Yet. Not yet. But the Taiwanese people have a history of not liking things that are popular in China. speaker-0: Rice, noodles, soy sauce. Drinking water. There you go. Breathing speaker-1: All right. No no no. Chinese language. We need to drink water. Drink air. speaker-0: no that's that's true. I think that the Taiwanese people do like a lot of the times reject Chinese culture and accept Japanese culture. Just on principle. Or Korean culture. And and I speaker-1: Like Call of the Cthulhu is one of the most popular games here. It's been try and it's been translated into into traditional i by various people that I know, all separately thinking that they were the first to do it. But it's like speaker-0: popular probably because because Japan, is that right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think there's a fantasy version of Call of Cthulhu called basic role playing. And when I say I think I usually am wrong a hundred percent. But I think Basic speaker-1: Ba wait, basic roleplay? speaker-0: Role playing and I think it's I think it's very similar to Call of Cthulhu and it's it is the fantasy RPG that is popular in China. but but I may be totally off base about that. I could be making that up right now. speaker-1: Could be. Mm-hmm. I could be totally wrong as well. speaker-0: I'm always making stuff up, I think. speaker-1: But it'd be fun to actually I have not been in China for a while. I actually can't go because of my media position here. No. But it would be neat to know more about the T D R B G scene over there. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, I I th I think just because there's so many people, even if like zero point one percent of people play this a lot of people it's like thirty gazillion people. So yeah. Yeah. I i I'm sure that that there is something there. And again I Juben Shah is popular. do you think there's something that's unique in in tabletop gaming that like you only get through that through tabletop gaming in general. Board games, magic, D and D, whatever. Is there something there that that you don't get anywhere else? speaker-1: Specifically tabletop gaming. Yeah, yeah. yes. And that is the ability to exist as somebody else. Hm. Of who whichever character that you create. and this goes for DMs too, because you exist as, I guess, a narrative voice or god in in your game. and all of the MPCs that you run and D P Cs or whatnot. But as a as a I'm currently experiencing a a moment in a Discord play by post of Dungeons and Dragons where nice. Where the like me and especially because I am very much into writing, placed in the first person, I exist as this person and I have their set of problems, of course, but I'm also and I'm facing their challenges. But there's also the sense of accomplishment and, you know, like emotional it's it's a roller coaster, but it's it's so it's so I don't have the w even have the words for it. It's it's at the same time overwhelming and validating and is just beautiful. speaker-0: I mean to to play this character and and like exist that way. Is that what you speaker-1: Exist that way and, you know, complete their goals and in the and you know, find love if that if that's what the character is doing. reunite with their parents if that's what they were doing. It's it's that's these if you live it from the first person, which I think these RPGs are meant to do, role playing games, then that experience is something that can be found nowhere else. speaker-0: Hm. Well I I know that you're a writer too, so I was wondering maybe maybe you do get that from writing as well. But but I think for for me I certainly don't. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, that's why it's wild. that's that was the reason why I kind of fell headfirst into the the world period. Mm-hmm. Because that part is my favorite part. speaker-0: Mm. Well I like that. I like that answer. I think for me I it may just be like well, I don't know. I wanna say sit around it and talk to people, but obviously you could do that anyway. So yeah, I think I think a different a different life, you know, to live a different life is maybe maybe something that you can get that way that you don't get elsewhere. speaker-1: 'Cause you know, here, I gotta worry about coming to work and, you know, no offense. Interviewing you is awesome. Sure. But some but I hate writing the news. It's awful. And then afterwards I have to make sure that my cats are fed and watered and the dog is walked and the mortgage is paid and you know, my parents aren't mad at me because I didn't spend enough time with them or you know, all of that, right? Is it it is kind of it is just life. Mm-hmm. And we should also be happy in in our humble little lives, but I don't get to sleep right. That's true, yeah. speaker-0: that's right. Sadly, sadly I'm afraid we don't get to slay dragons in real life. speaker-1: And then what heroes welcome it all of that, right? When we walk into a town, yeah. Yeah, yeah. speaker-0: They're they're cheering, you you go to the tavern, all the all the maidens and I don't know what I'm trying to say. I'll stop there, I'll cut it up. speaker-1: By all means. speaker-0: So there are there are unique things that you get from playing games like this, from from trying to experience a different life, a different world. Do you think there's something unique about the group of people that that that do this in Taiwan at all? Do you think there's something unique about this perspective or this this place that we all find ourselves doing this? speaker-1: This answer is maybe gonna trigger some people. I I have I have three categories that I put people in. Mm-hmm. ex expats specifically that I meet here in Taiwan. Mm-hmm. one, are people wind up in Taiwan because they have a connection to it somehow. Like they have family here or their significant other partner ha is Taiwanese or has family here, so y they're here. the second category are adventurous folk. Because you don't just get up and move to another country unless you're of a certain personality who is open and willing to experience new things and meet new people. speaker-0: I I see that. speaker-1: the third group is the weird, awkward people who kind of are looking for somewhere else. that maybe they will speaker-0: I I wonder if if group two and group three are the same thing. speaker-1: Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. Sometimes they are. speaker-0: Mm n not to cut you off and and I do want you to finish it, but I I've gone from island of misfit toys to island of misfit toys my whole life and I feel like I'm just really a sailor like on the archipelago of Misfit Toys and and I'm like I'm just discovering that there's like I'm just canoeing between islands of Misfit Toys speaker-1: by all means, these three categories aren't exclusive to sure, sure. but the yeah, the the I guess social outcasts is group three. So and they're here looking for some place they that may they may fit better in. And all three of these types of people I have found to be far more welcoming than all of to be fair, I wasn't really super a nerd in the United States, but I hear horror stories of like gatekeeping and bullying and things like that. happening in these communities that really should be about being a hero. So it's here specifically in Taiwan, hope this answers your question, the the community is surprisingly open and lovely. They're they're friendly and they hold your hand when you don't know know stuff. I have very rarely had an unf you know un unpleasant experience. speaker-0: I think I can agree with that. That that's a pretty good answer. That I think because there are just like barriers to entry, like you can't just come to Taiwan you know, just they they don't let anybody just come over here. At least have to have a college education and a reason to be here, right? Yeah. I I think I've only met one ex pet where I was really like, I hope this guy gets hit by a truck. And he actually he got he got deported for a DUI, so speaker-1: Sometimes though there just are those people. I see. speaker-0: not quite a truck, but speaker-1: Almost. speaker-0: Al yeah, almost could have been I don't know. I I don't know. I won't say anything else. I don't really know anything else about it. He okay, I'm not gonna go too far off on this, but but he the one day I met this guy, he was telling me his theory of NPCs, which is you know, like tabletop role playing games. He thought that like he and the people that he likes are are the real the only real people and everybody else is an NPC. And I was just like this is a sociopath, a crazy person. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. He's like, You know that old lady over there walking on the beach? NPC. Wouldn't matter if she got eaten by a Yeah, speaker-1: So speaker-0: I know. I like, this guy's got a g like I don't want this guy around, so I I I'm like I said I'm glad he got reported. I don't know. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. Okay, maybe that's the wrong kind of social outcome. Wrong kind of social outcome. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. Hopefully hopefully he's somewhere where he can rehabilitate himself. Hmm. So speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And learn some empathy. speaker-0: so you've you've run this show for how long have you had your show? speaker-1: Geek Out on Radio Taiwan International? speaker-0: Show right there, they're very same. speaker-1: it's in its third year. We're actually in the month of October running our anniversary special, which is a live not live play, but a playthrough of a T T RPG. That's cool. our first anniversary we did Dungeons and Dragons because that's my favorite. Second year was Monster of the Week. And this year it's Kids on Bikes. speaker-0: very cool. Have you played Kids Empire? speaker-1: no, actually, and I'm running this game, so we're gonna see how this works out. speaker-0: I'm running a game of dagger heart next week. I don't know any of the rules, so so I I speaker-1: Flying by the seat of our things. I love it. speaker-0: Did you like Mon I'm sorry, go on. What are you about to say? speaker-1: but yeah, if you'd like to tune in, it is every Thursday in October. So there's gonna be five episodes. So session zero and then one, two, three, four. Excellent. The the it will be also kind of pertaining to your show taking place in late eighties Taiwan. yes, speaker-0: very cool. speaker-1: rural Taiwan. In rather than your your stranger things type of thing. So hopefully it speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. And and this show, where can we find it? I'm sorry. speaker-1: Exactly. yeah. well you can if you search on Google or whatnot, Radio Taiwan International and then geek out. I think I have it as one word, I'm not sure. You can try it. Plug speaker-0: I'll have you. speaker-1: it again. But yeah, so we're also on Spotify, and Apple Pod wherever you p wherever you CAD pod. okay. Wherever you cast pods. speaker-0: You cast spots, there you go. That's good. and that sounds quite interesting. I actually I think I'll have to listen to that. speaker-1: Mm. Do I like Monster of the Wig, is that what you're saying? speaker-0: yeah. Did you like Monster of the Week? Haven't played f five sessions of it or something? speaker-1: At least five. At least five. that I was a player in somebody else's Monster Week game for quite a while. It is it's fun because I'm a huge fan of shows like Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Supernatural. Supernatural's my jam. speaker-0: I've never seen Supernatural. speaker-1: you have to I love my winter the winters are my voice. But but that it's of course kinda campy but it doesn't take itself seriously, which is kinda the point. And the reason why they call it Monster Week, listeners who don't actually know is that each show Yeah, which is released weekly is the main characters faced with this challenge of this one monster. And then it's generally resolved in that one episode. Exactly. This kind of episodic not not sitcom. speaker-0: But these sort of drama. speaker-1: Yeah, these actually T V shows, right. So that's Monster of the Week is fun in that way. and the DM that I had kind of ran each session in this way. speaker-0: that's cool. So I I ran one session of it in I thought it was really fun, I never got to play it again after that. Hm. speaker-1: You should as well. speaker-0: I think I left my book in the US and speaker-1: thankfully a lot of a lot of people have made things very affordable online if not free. speaker-0: now your show, that's turning three years old this month. has it given you any opportunities to to be a part of or shape the community of of people playing games in Taiwan D? speaker-1: Hopefully. I would hope so. the premise behind it I it's a geek out. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, your show is like way more general than just T T RP. speaker-1: But I started it as kind of a nerd thing because I was one of only two nerds in the office when I first came on. Now I'm Donald's Moore because more But speaker-0: Right. speaker-1: anyway, so so so I pitched it to my boss that this show would be looking at the quote nerdier facets of people in Taiwan. Mm-hmm. speaker-0: And I've seen episodes out on there about like language and and I I don't know, I was just looking at it right before I came in and it's a bunch of speaker-1: Yeah, because the truth is that geeking out it doesn't specifically pertain to only nerdy things. Yeah, of course not. Yeah. People can geek out about anything they're truly passionate about and that's kind of the direction that the show wound up taking by itself. But I do very much hope from all the people that I've had on who did share their experiences with nerdy subject subjects that we've influenced something. Made people feel like like every person that I have on, every guest is not like a TED talk, you know expert in anything. I actually tend to avoid those people. I give those to my coworkers who are like, w we need important people more serious speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: shows. Please take them. I want somebody like me, somebody like you, somebody that is just, you know, that that NPC I guess. That's the sociopath that's pointing to you down the street. good god. But but the the point is like like every man, right? speaker-0: A passionate speaker-1: passion. Because we all have them. We all have something. Right, right. And that's kinda the point. It's when you hear one person talking about it, you can identify how they feel about that particular subject. And if not that one, then maybe the guy in the next episode. speaker-0: Right, right, right. Well, so so this community that maybe you have some and again I keep saying community, maybe talking about just tabletop space. Is there is there something that you want it to become or like something that you think it could I keep speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: saying it does it have potential, does it have energy? What what would you think what would best case scenario look like in some time? Wizards of the coast makes a real translation. speaker-1: of course, yes. all of them actually, all of the RPG anybody makes official translations in as many languages as possible. Not not just Chinese. traditional and simplified by the way. And I kinda want people to be able to come out of their shells a bit, which is happening slowly as we mentioned. Right, right. But like imagine Gen Con here. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Well that there is a a a was there a tabletop gaming convention? There was one at least last year that was like at a at a MRT style. speaker-1: At Maji Square. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But bigger. We can do better than that. speaker-0: I would love that. Yeah. That's what I want as well. speaker-1: is is to explode this place because okay, all of us nerds are here in various forms, and either expats or locals or whatever. And we all love what we love and it's it's a it's a magical thing. It's an epic thing to be able to share in it. Yeah, that's what I really want. Yeah, yeah. speaker-0: Hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, but but I don't know I I speaker-1: You are. T Pop T Pop is you know pushing that forward. speaker-0: think what what I what I don't really know how to do at all is to bring new people in. 'Cause say like, you know, there's there's I think seventy people on this Discord server. And that's like my whole audience is this Discord server. I don't know how to make it bigger than that. But I know that like when I first came here, right, I was working with Hess and I had a speaker-1: No, same boat. speaker-0: No offense. Okay. Offense mint. I'm sorry. Yeah. I'm not a fan. but but I didn't know how to contact anybody. I hardly knew how to use line. I didn't know that I could like ride a bicycle across town. You know, like I didn't know anything. But if somebody had said, hey, do you want to come play a game? I would have Yeah, you I like I love DD at the time. So like how do how do we meet people like that? Because there's probably hundreds of speaker-1: Yeah. I actually one of my most favorite things to do that I took a lot of pride in, I was at Hess for twelve years. speaker-0: Jesus. speaker-1: Sorry, excuse me. No, by all means. That's generally the if the the devil you know versus the devil you don't know. Okay, okay. The I and for ten of those I was in management. And what I d I was at Man Office. okay. The the one thing that I really tried to do for especially the new teachers coming in is extend the hand. It's like you wanna roll some dice. Mm-hmm. I run a table, you're welcome to join it. yeah, yeah. And and if not, then you like hiking, then I know these people over here that they're super into hiking, you can join this Facebook group and you can see, you know, when they go out. But that's that's the reason why we're human. Mm-hmm. The this this species is not meant to be a l Right, right. Yeah, that's true. We're we're we're meant to be you know, we're meant to find our our own little fibes, is that the word? speaker-0: Mm. It sounds sounds reasonable to me. And I I think to go back, that's that's one thing I think is unique about about role playing is that like I think that human storytelling is is like it's just in our bones, right? speaker-1: Yeah. It separates us from the animals. yeah, storytelling. speaker-0: And so so a a like a game or like a a type of game that's made about telling stories together is is something that is just it's transcendent, it's unique and it's it it's epic. There you go. I don't speaker-1: The word is epic. It's absolutely epic, yeah. So yeah speaker-0: I don't know how to reach those people. And maybe you know, maybe somebody in the has made office. Okay. speaker-1: Word of mouth. What you need is no. You just need loud people. So so yeah, at me the next time you're putting something together and then I will add all the other loud people that I know and we'll get the word out. speaker-0: Very good, very good. Yeah. Again I'm I I'm kinda quiet myself. Again, shy I think is the word. Well, okay, so I'm I'm almost almost done ask shaking you down here. But you you mentioned reading a lot of books as a kid, so are there any books that that like really set your imagination up? Th then and now. speaker-1: Ugh. Then and now. Mm-hmm. maybe triggering, because I was a child when I read it. But Stephen King's it. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: I was very much into horror as a as a weird little emo kid. But speaker-0: afraid of goosebumps when I was a kid, so like I speaker-1: yeah, I couldn't. I just blasted past Goosebumps at like light speed. But Okay, Roll Roll Dahl a is actually a a foundation stone, no offense. but yeah, I guess I jumped too heavy in the deep end. But the the amount of f fear that he was able to instill by letting because the I'm sorry if I spoil this because if you haven't seen or read it by now, you really should. speaker-0: I've seen the movie, but I don't think speaker-1: So you know, so you know the story. The whole premise behind it is that this creature is whatever you fear the most. Period. So the the the villain, the antagonist in the story is your own imagination. Mm. And that's that that was one of the I guess the most impactful books that I read as a kid. Mm. I think I was like maybe nine or ten when I read that one. that was really inspiring as well. To kind of th that's about when I started writing little tiny short stories that were awful in the beginning and eventually wound up being speaker-0: That's how you get good at being at doing something. You start up bad at it. speaker-1: Totally. And then recently recent okay, so I did I mention I write romantic? Yeah. speaker-0: I I actually wanted to know, is there a place to go and read that? speaker-1: Yes. The internet is very generous in in what you would like to read. Okay. For I'm gonna mention two books. One that is romant romancy and the other one that is more fantasy. sci-fi maybe? Dungeon Crawl or Carl? yeah. Sh speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: no well we're not spoil me neither. So we're so we're I'm not gonna spoil it, but d I'm just gonna say the premise. Mm-hmm. And and correct me if I'm wrong because it's so crazy. But Carl is a regular guy. Coast Guard guy or whatever? speaker-0: Yeah, I think he's in the coast guard. speaker-1: Yeah yeah. He's Coast Bar guy. And he's and he's standing outside with his ex-girlfriend's cat when fundamentally the world ends. Mm-hmm. And then he's abducted and put into this alien reality show where he has to complete dungeons in a way. Yeah, yeah. And that is the premise behind this book. It sounds completely unhinged. speaker-0: Did you read the books or did you read the audiobooks? the audiobooks are so good. Yeah, 'cause it's speaker-1: Re I'm reading. Really? Okay. Everyone keeps speaker-0: telling me this. Yeah, the audiobooks are fantastic. Okay, okay. The the narrator is really good and there's parts of the of the text where it like it repeats like system message or whatever. And yeah. And it I think in a book it would be kind of annoying, but in the audiobook it's it's it's good. speaker-1: They they try to do it in print. Like the system message or whatever, it's in like different fonts. But I yeah, everyone keeps telling me that the audiobook is really good. So I think I do have to do that. Mm-hmm. Because speaker-0: I think I got audible just to listen to it. When it when it was over I like canceled Audible. speaker-1: Mm. The Yes. But yes, I would highly recommend this book for anyone who wants to kind of step into the world of crazy but not crazy. It's just so you're just gonna fall into it. It's gonna be great. It's hilarious. speaker-0: Hilarious. speaker-1: It is totally hilarious. As far as romantic goes, I tend to lean towards the darker side of things. So like Quicksilver, or everyone is about Avatar right now. A Court of Thorns and Roses. Is that that that's what speaker-0: But I've never read any romanticity, I don't know. speaker-1: There there is I guess is a good step. I would recommend it as a step in, but it exists in this high fan fa high fantasy realm where there's fairies and magic and all of that. And that it obviously follows a plot line, a romantic plot line. So yeah. Definitely fair warning, spice. Mm. Yes, three three chili sp three chili peppers of spice. Three chili peppers of spice. speaker-0: The last romantic novel I read was Pride and Prejudice and I I like I speaker-1: Like speaker-0: so much. I I'm afraid like it embarrasses me to say how much I liked it. Like a speaker-1: No, no. speaker-0: book for a girl two hundred years ago and I think it's fantastic. No, that's a book for everyone. It is. It's such a good book. Because it speaker-1: Pulls it it it's not like spicy, but it it's speaker-0: It's not spicy though. speaker-1: not spicy at all. So obviously, you know, the that's on the reading list of many, you know, high schoolers and stuff. But it pulls at the heart strings. So and and it it it talks to what essentially makes us all people. Yeah, unless you're that sociopath. speaker-0: probably did not get anything from that. Well anyway, I think that's that's all that I got. I have one more segment. One more segment. what what are you playing? What games are you playing? It doesn't have to be a T T RPG, it could be anything. What games do you play in these days? Michelle Chang, what games do you play in these days? I wanna say your name. speaker-1: my goodness. How many are there? I am currently in I'm not even gonna count. on Discord I do play by post, which is, you know, right you're co writing a story, right? And you post something, the DM posts something, another player posts something, and so on and so forth. So I'm in three games on there. One two of them are classic five E, D and D five E fifth edition, and one of them is Something else. It's a homebrew engine of sorts that DM has created. Mm-hmm. And then the as far as in real life games, draw steel. Dungeons and Dragons, Draw Steel and thank And speaker-0: No, and also Master of the Week, it's out. speaker-1: yeah and Monster of Week. Thank you. I th I knew I was dropping something. speaker-0: Lots of D drawsteo monsters That sounds like quite a load, quite a lot. Kids speaker-1: And next month, mm-hmm, kids on bikes. speaker-0: on bikes. that that's right, kids on bikes, yeah I'm sorry. Yeah. That's really cool. That sounds like like you a lot on your plate. It sounds like a lot of fun. speaker-1: this is the best part ever. right. Yes, of life period. It's T T R B sh speaker-0: Yeah. I I think it's it's pretty fun. Well, thank you so much for coming on and thank you. Nice to get to know you. Yeah. speaker-1: Love I love kicking out with anybody. speaker-0: Thanks for listening and I want to say thank you one more time to Michelle for coming on to the show. again you can find her her show is called Geek Out. It's published where podcasts are available, Apple Spotify. It's also on Radio Taiwan International, RTI, so you can just Google RTI Geek Out. She's got a huge backlog of episodes about all sorts of stuff. really cool show. And like I said, actually Hey buddy. What you doing over there? Hey. My boy's talking to me. That's all from me this week, though. This has been Cam. You're listening to Teapod. subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And you can always go to our website, T Pop.run, T P-O-P-R-U-N. Click the subscribe button there to get the newsletter updates for T-Pop, and also any new episode of Teapod is gonna go up there. Thanks for listening. I'll see you next time. Bye-bye.