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The Honey Trap: Sex in Espionage Throughout History · Ridiculous History

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  Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you so much for
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: tuning in. My name is Ben, my name is Noel Um.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: And you've had spicy honey, Ben? Yes, it's pretty good.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: I can put you in a kind of coffee. It
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: makes it like a spicy coffee, or you put it
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: on some some chicken, like a hot chicken kind of situation.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: It's it's good stuff. You know who else is pretty good? Noel.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: That's our super producer, Casey Pegrom and spicy and spicy indeed. Now,
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  Speaker 1: have you ever been in a situation where a stranger
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  Speaker 1: approaches you and there seems to be this instant chemistry,
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: this instant connection you just as they say? Click? Have
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  Speaker 1: already asked me if I've ever been propositioned? I'm asking, well,
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: maybe it was a proposition. How'd your story turned out?
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  Speaker 1: It was an indecent proposal, Ben, That's what it was.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: You were in an indecent proposal situation. It was indecently
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  Speaker 1: proposed to yes, and I accepted. How do it work out?
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: It was very indecent. I can't go into it. Here's
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  Speaker 1: the family show. It's weird. Because hopefully in this situation
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  Speaker 1: that was not a proposal, was indecent for for hopefully
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  Speaker 1: some family friendly reasons. You know, maybe you guys just
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  Speaker 1: liked each other. You just sat around and told a
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: lot of really blue jokes. Okay, that makes sense. Sometimes
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  Speaker 1: when people get hit upon or propositioned out of the blue,
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  Speaker 1: there is an ulterior motive involved. Wait a minute, people
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  Speaker 1: aren't always as they seem. Then that's true and all
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  Speaker 1: today's episode is about spycraft, but maybe not in the
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  Speaker 1: way you think. It turns out that one of the
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  Speaker 1: most famous espionage strategies in history is seducing someone. There's
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: you know, have you ever seen the show Americans The Americans?
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: I haven't, but I've been told that it's quite good
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  Speaker 1: and that I should watch it. Well, I don't like
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: tell people what they should do, but I enjoyed the show.
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  Speaker 1: I should get me to a television um situation right now, Casey,
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  Speaker 1: have you seen The Americans? I have not. No, I
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  Speaker 1: didn't really watch TV shows much. Do you know. It
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: takes a lot for me to check out a TV series.
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  Speaker 1: So um, nothing against the Americans? What about Law and Order?
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  Speaker 1: You ever seen that a few times? Yeah? Casey on
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  Speaker 1: the case. So the trade name for this kind of
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  Speaker 1: spycraft via seduction is the honey trap. Yep. And spies
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  Speaker 1: use their sexual prowess, their charisma and you know that
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  Speaker 1: thrill of living life on the edge as baitd This
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  Speaker 1: is like, you know how there have been rumors bouncing
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  Speaker 1: around for months, if not years, about the concept of compromat. Yes, right,
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: well what what is that? Also known as compromand I
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  Speaker 1: think they're the same thing, and it's just the idea.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, it's basically just blackmail material, right, It's like
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  Speaker 1: when someone is compromised, um, whether you know something about
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  Speaker 1: a crime they've committed, or you have, let's say, a
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  Speaker 1: tape of them getting pete on um or some such
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  Speaker 1: other nefarious behavior that would be considered compromat or compromont.
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  Speaker 1: Are they just different tenses? Why are there two different words?
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  Speaker 1: That's an interesting question. I know comproima is the Russian
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  Speaker 1: phrase which has been picked up by the US media
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  Speaker 1: even has been making the rounds much more these days
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  Speaker 1: than I've ever heard it in the past in terms
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  Speaker 1: of like in the parlance of our times, to quote
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: the Big Lebowski. But there's a really I haven't seen
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: the film, but it's got a Jennifer Lawrence in and
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  Speaker 1: I believe it's called Red Sparrow if I'm not mistaken,
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  Speaker 1: and she plays a Russian spy that is like trained
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  Speaker 1: in these sexual wiles. It's literally a school for young
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  Speaker 1: women that are trained to do this very thing. It's
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  Speaker 1: a huge plot point in the Americans without spoiling it,
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  Speaker 1: The Americans is about sleeper agents living in the US,
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  Speaker 1: And in both Red Sparrow and The Americans, there's this
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  Speaker 1: method of spycraft via seduction employed called honey traps, or
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  Speaker 1: you may have heard it referred to as honey pots.
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  Speaker 1: These tactics have been around for a long, long long time.
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  Speaker 1: In fact, as our pal Gabe pointed out off air,
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  Speaker 1: the earliest honey trap on record. Maybe this is how
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  Speaker 1: old it is, it's biblical. One of the oldest ones
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  Speaker 1: that we know of is the anecdotal betrayal of Sampson
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  Speaker 1: by Delilah. Yeah, that's a classic story, um, And then
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: what is it She like sneaks in and cuts his
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  Speaker 1: hair wherein all of his magical strongman powers lie in
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  Speaker 1: exchange for eleven hundred pieces of silver. That's right, And
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  Speaker 1: then I think he gets his head lopped off at
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  Speaker 1: some point. That may be in a different story, though
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: Solomn is the one who has Sampson's head cut off,
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  Speaker 1: and so whether or not there was a real Sampson
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  Speaker 1: and a real Delilah and real superpower hair, we know
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  Speaker 1: that this practice has continued and continues even in the
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  Speaker 1: present day. Every single intelligence agency across the planet did
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  Speaker 1: something like this, but it was an especially common practice
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  Speaker 1: in China and in Russia. For all our US listeners,
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  Speaker 1: The Central Intelligence Agency does not officially comment on whether
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  Speaker 1: it's agents use sexuality to get info, but off the record,
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  Speaker 1: some retired CIA folks say it could happen. Today. We'd
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  Speaker 1: like to just present a few cases of honey traps.
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  Speaker 1: This is really a situation in which the truth is
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: stranger than fiction. We we talked about Sampson, but let's
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  Speaker 1: dive into mada Ha and really quickly. It was not
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  Speaker 1: Solomon them to do with Sampson. That was John the
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  Speaker 1: Baptist who she had beheaded. And in the opera Ptolemy,
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: she sings a really creepy aria to his severed head. Um.
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  Speaker 1: So sorry, excuse me for mixing all my stories there.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: Please continue, But so Mata Hari you may have heard
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  Speaker 1: the phrase before. M A t a h a r I.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: Mata Harry was Dutch woman who had a pretty pretty
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  Speaker 1: wild life. She had spent a few years as a
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  Speaker 1: dancer in Java in Indonesia. During World War One, she
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  Speaker 1: was arrested because the French forces had discovered that a
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  Speaker 1: German military official in Spain was sending her money. They
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  Speaker 1: caught the telegrams intercepted. She was accused of passing uh
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  Speaker 1: secrets to the Germans, French secrets to the Germans, um
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  Speaker 1: and uh, you know, secrets that she had potentially gotten
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  Speaker 1: by um, you know, working her mojo on certain French
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  Speaker 1: political officials and military officials as well. So she went
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  Speaker 1: on trial and um Mada Harri defended herself quite quite vocally,
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  Speaker 1: quite robustly. It was an interesting defense too, it really was.
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  Speaker 1: She said that she was this attache is which is
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  Speaker 1: like a staffer for a diplomat or an ambassador, that
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  Speaker 1: she was his mistress and that he was just sending
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  Speaker 1: her like you know, sugar daddy type gifts exactly. She said,
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  Speaker 1: no spycraft, just a little bit of slee's baggery. Her
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  Speaker 1: arguments did not win over the judges. She was executed
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  Speaker 1: on October fifteenth, nineteen seventeen, by firing squad and a
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  Speaker 1: nice little detail here, she refused to be blindfolded. She
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  Speaker 1: wanted to see it coming. After the close of the war,
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  Speaker 1: the French forces admitted that they didn't really have any
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  Speaker 1: evidence against her. Most modern historians have concluded that she
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  Speaker 1: wasn't shot because she was running a honey trap, but
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  Speaker 1: she was instead executed to send a message to anyone
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  Speaker 1: who might follow her example. So the lesson here is
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  Speaker 1: that looking as the one is participating in a honey
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  Speaker 1: trap is as dangerous as actually being in one. And
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  Speaker 1: we have so many examples of these. A lot of
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  Speaker 1: them occurred during wartime. Actually, a lot of the ones
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  Speaker 1: we know about occurred during wartime. Because again, this stuff
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  Speaker 1: is maybe still happening today. I mean, I have no
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  Speaker 1: doubt that it's I mean, it's it's tales old as time.
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  Speaker 1: It works, right, Like, why why would it not be happening.
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  Speaker 1: I'm pretty pretty confident that our government is doing this
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  Speaker 1: all the time. But who am I to say that's
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: not what we're here for today. Well, let's talk about
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  Speaker 1: the story of Nora Estoga, who was able to seduce
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  Speaker 1: a Nicaraguan general and then assassinate him. That's a part
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  Speaker 1: of it too. We haven't even talked about the the
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  Speaker 1: ability to lure people into compromising situations, not just to
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  Speaker 1: you know, steal secrets from them or to get comprom
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  Speaker 1: mot on them, but to actually kill them. And there's
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  Speaker 1: another example here and Israeli technician Mordechai Venunu, who is
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  Speaker 1: most famous or infamous for whistle blowing about Israel's nuclear capabilities.
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  Speaker 1: When he spilled the atomic beans in he ran away,
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  Speaker 1: left the country and went to London, and there he
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  Speaker 1: was seduced by a woman who led him to Israeli
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  Speaker 1: intelligence assets in Rome. This is under massad, correct. Massad
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  Speaker 1: is the intelligence agencies, and they they caught him. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: we know honey pots can occur with a number of
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  Speaker 1: ultimate goals. One to assassinate people, to uh to to
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  Speaker 1: kidnap them or or you know, gain custody of them.
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  Speaker 1: The third and perhaps one of the most insidious, is
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  Speaker 1: to control people over time. We're talking about blackmail, like
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  Speaker 1: long term, long game like that's that. Can you imagine
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  Speaker 1: being that beholden to somebody else where You just couldn't
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  Speaker 1: live your normal life, you had to like literally live
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  Speaker 1: for another person or another organization at some point when
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  Speaker 1: you just have to get in front of it, just
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  Speaker 1: tell your spouse, Look, I messed up, But I don't
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  Speaker 1: want to ruin the country think that you would think
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  Speaker 1: that maybe you know, there's there are there are worse
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: things than being told you're cheating on your spouse, though,
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  Speaker 1: and I imagine some of those triggers might be pulled
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  Speaker 1: as well, like you know, threatening to kill family members.
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  Speaker 1: And yeah, that's outside of what we're talking about today.
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  Speaker 1: My favorite honey pot story of all time, and I
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  Speaker 1: know we had talked about this off air. So there
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  Speaker 1: was this Indonesian president, Ahmed Sukarno. He was the victim,
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  Speaker 1: the quote unquote victim of a honey pot blackmail attempt
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  Speaker 1: by the kgb U SSR. They made a videotape of
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  Speaker 1: him being intimate with several Russian women disguised as flight attendants.
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  Speaker 1: So this is very not safe for work in s
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  Speaker 1: f W. Here's the thing though, when they came to
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  Speaker 1: him and they said, you know, didn't I don't know,
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  Speaker 1: we have video of you. He he was like, all right, well,
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: let me let me see the video. Like we do
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  Speaker 1: not think it would be pleased if this gets out.
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  Speaker 1: And then he watched the video and he was over
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  Speaker 1: the moon. He was like, oh, awesome, you guys filmed it.
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  Speaker 1: I look great. He was like, I look great. Can
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: I have copies of this because I want to show
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: it to the crew. And then so basically he just
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: needn't care. He didn't care at all, but he was
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: proud and he was like, oh, ahead, distribute, It'll make
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: me look like a real ball ar. Yeah, he had
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: a weird set of priorities. That's the most famous case
• 11:54
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  Speaker 1: the code ridiculous at checkout. While we're on Russian uh noll?
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: Is it true that the Russian government perfected a trap?
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: They certainly made it into a bit of an art form.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: There's a really interesting quote from a former KGB agent
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  Speaker 1: saying that the Soviet intelligence agencies didn't ask Russian women
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  Speaker 1: to stand up for their country, but asked them to
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: lay down. Yeah. And again, like we're talking about that
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: movie read Sparrow. Uh. The idea of the Sparrow School.
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  Speaker 1: It trained these young, very intelligent women to use their
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: bodies in their intellect kind of like as like a
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: super weapon, you know. Um So it absolutely was a
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: part of of their their tactics. And and a particularly
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: famous Cold War spy case UH involves Clayton Loan Tree,
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: who was a Marine Corps guard security guard who was
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: taken in by a female Soviet officer and then um
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  Speaker 1: was forced to share classified documents through a honeypot type scheme.
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  Speaker 1: Uh and in nine seven he was convicted of espionage,
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: the first Marine convicted of espionage. Yep, gosh, can you
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: imagine the shame I mean, you know what I mean
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: like and to be exposed like that, and to be literally,
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: you know, put on trial by your own country who
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: you like, you know, believed in enough to join the
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: Marine Corps to serve I feel like I'm I'm already
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  Speaker 1: immune to any kind of honey pot or compromat because
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: you know, anytime someone hits on me, I feel like
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: we're both just very disappointed. In general, don't sell yourself Shore.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: You could be compromised, thanks man, thank you. You could
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: be indecently proposed to Well, technically it's possible, because you
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  Speaker 1: know this. This tactic on the Russian side did not
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: disappear with the fall of the Soviet Union. Recently, a
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: political satirist in Russia, a guy named Viktor Schindarrovich and
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: I'm butchering the Russian there he was filmed cheating on
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  Speaker 1: his spouse with a young woman whose name was Katya,
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: and weirdly enough, the same young woman, the same Katya
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: had also seduced like six other critics of the government.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: And then there was another series of traps. One appeared
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: to catch an American diplomat in two thousand and nine.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: The State Department says that that episode was fabricated, that
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: nothing actually happened, but the government of Russia made it
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: up for some reason. And Russia is not the only, uh,
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: not the only game in town here. It's true. UM.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: China was recently discovered UM to be using this technique
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: as well. Though you got to imagine that, you know,
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: again Taylor, as old as time, I could imagine it
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: going back to much much farther in the past than this.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: But in two thousand nine it was discovered that Deputy
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: Mayor of London, Ian Clement, was actually drugged UM and
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: deuce the old one to punch in a hotel room
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: in Beijing. Um. When he awakened, he found that his
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: BlackBerry was gone um. And then he admitted that he
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: quote fell for the oldest trick in the book, Which
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: is why I find it hard to believe that that
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: we're just now saying oh, yeah, China does this too. Um,
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: that seems like a little bit uh like, um duh.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: Just gonna go out on a limb and say, if
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: you are an important diplomat, if you are a government
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: military official, or a corporate tycoon, and you're hanging out
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: at a hotel bar, just be skeptical, use critical thinking
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: when someone sidles up to you. Now, I know it
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: sounds like we're you know, being a bit restrictive because
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: so far stories have all been about dudes being seduced. However,
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: make no mistake, women have also been the targets of
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: honey trap operations. Are you talking about spymaster Devolf? Yes, yes, indeed, yeah,
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: it's true. During the Cold War, East German intelligence chief
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: Marcus Wolff sent uh agents of Stazi, which is a
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: lot of these intelligence agency names are new to me.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: Stazi would have been the East German intelligence agencies that
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: correct sent agents of Stazi um called Romeo spies love
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: that uh into West Germany to work their masculine wiles
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  Speaker 1: on powerful women and uh and and get at those
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: uh those secrets. Yep. And this was a smaller part
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  Speaker 1: of his larger operation. You see this spymaster Marcus Wolf
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  Speaker 1: ran the largest honey trap operation that we know of
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  Speaker 1: in human history. In the nineteen fifties. Wolf had this thought,
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: he said, huh, there are a lot of dead german Men.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: He said, a lot of the German Men who would
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: be of marrying age have died during World War Two.
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  Speaker 1: And more and more German women are becoming professionals, are
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: pursuing higher echelons of government and industry. And he said,
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  Speaker 1: you know what, that it's lonely at the top. Maybe
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: we could, maybe we could work something out. Maybe we
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: could send a few, you know, interesting young men of
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: charm and intrigue to talk to these lonely folks at
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: the height of industry. So he set up this special
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: department of the Stazi, and he staffed it with his
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  Speaker 1: most intelligent officers, but also the most handsome. Those are
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: the ones you're talking about, right, and all the Romeo spies.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: It is, indeed, and there's a really a great history
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: account of this on Foreign policy dot com, The History
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: of the honey Trap that I highly recommend checking out.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: And um, I think they might be using a little
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: body dub duble entendre here when they say that thanks
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: to the Romeo spies and their honey traps, the Stasi
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: penetrated most levels of the West German government and industry.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: Or maybe that's just my filthy, filthy mind. I don't know, man,
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: maybe you're getting honey trapped with that article. Don't let
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: them get in your head, you know what's true. At
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: one point, the East Germans even um sent spies to
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: infiltrate NATO and was able to extract some very crucial
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: information on the Western deployment of of nukes. Well you
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: know how they got caught right this, this scheme was
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: going gangbusters until it became useless. And pretty quickly, West
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: German counterintelligence authorities figured out that you could tell a
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: Romeo spy by the haircut. No lie, it sounds so simple,
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: but the spies had these practical short back insides haircuts
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: similar not quite a high and type, but you know,
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: a clean cut haircut. And in West Germany the hairstyles
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: tended to be more elaborate and more complete aided, so
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: like pompadours, it was a whole thing West German haircuts.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: So counter intelligence officers would get the would get the
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: heads up from a guard at a train, at a
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: train station or on the train and then they would fall.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: They'd be like follow that haircut, and the intelligence agencies
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: would follow the spy and they would arrest them as
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: soon as they did something wrong, because they had to
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: wait for them to do something wrong. Yes, and three
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: of these women were rooted out and uh, and they
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: went on trial, but they didn't really get the book
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: thrown at them so much as just a little slap
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: on the wrist. I think. Um, one of them who
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: got into West German intelligence got six and a half years.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: It's not not really slept on the wrist, but it's
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: certainly better than death, I guess um. And that was
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: largely because of public um kind of sympathy towards her.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: In West Germany. Um, they kind of identified with these women. Volf,
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: the spy master in question, was on trial twice and
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: this is after the collapse of communism, but he only
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: got a two year sentence that had been suspended. And yeah,
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: that's that's really interesting to me. The guy that kind
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: of like mastermind this whole thing got maybe the most
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: lenient sentence of all. And he's a complicated character. He
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: went on to pursue a second career as an author.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: He is anomalous amidst the players in the intelligence game
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: Spy Masters, because he published an autobiography called Man Without
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: a Face, great title, and in this he attempts to
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: set the record straight more or less, or at least
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: rationalize his actions. He said he never put pressure on
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: any officers to use honeypot tactics in the course of
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: their work. He said it was up to their discretion.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: He said, quote, they were sharp operators who realized that
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: a lot can be with sex. This is true in
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: business and espionage because it opens up channels of communication
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: more quickly than other approaches. And of course, he said,
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: as long as there is espionage, there will be Romeos
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: seducing unsuspecting targets with access to secrets. And here's where
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: I think he's kind of trying to redeem himself a little.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: He says, Look, look, look, I was running an intelligence service,
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: not a lonely hearts club. So he's like, look, I'm
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: not a matchmaker. I'm not telling people to date each other. Yeah.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: It was something of a of an espionage pimp type figure,
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: though in a way Honey, yeah, I don't think you
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: can distance yourself in that way now, what do you
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: think Ben was? James Bond a Romeo spy. He used
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: seduction quite often on powerful women. James Bond was a
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: terrible spy. He was a bad He says his name
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: every time he meets people. That's true, and I you've
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: mentioned them before. But but he's double O seven. Maybe
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: his name really is I don't know, Like I wonder
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: you know, there's a new Bond film coming up. Is
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: it still with Daniel Craig. I think there's I think
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: there's a new Bond who is going out. The rumor
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: I heard is there's a female Bond. That's right. I
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: think it's Daniel Craig and this kind of new person.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: So he's gonna pass the torch. Yeah, something like that.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: I think that's the idea. Anyway, Casey on the case, yea, indeed,
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: we've got to check it out. Yeah, I don't know.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: The new ones with Craig are okay. They're kind of fun.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: I like James Bond, I like I like seeing a
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: terrible spy. But the action sequences are great and I
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: love some intrigue. Remember that Guy Mad's Michelson playing right
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: is one of Casey Pegram's French associates. It's la bouche
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: And what does the chef mean? Does that mean like
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: c h I F F R E. Yeah, he chief,
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: which in French means like digits. It's literally kind of
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: the numeral the zero to nine that that you would
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: right to represent a number, but it can also mean
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: like figures, statistics, you know, quarterly results, something like that
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: would be less chief. Um. Yeah, it's it's surprisingly nuanced
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: in French. There's like the namba, which is like the number,
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: new mail hole which is also kind of like number,
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: but would be more like for addresses and that kind
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: of thing. Uh. And then les Chief which again digits
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: and uh, figures and that kind of thing. And he's
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: like a big gambler in the casino reale, So that
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: makes sense. Casey on the case, big time, double triple case.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: So this episode is a little weird for us because
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: we usually like to examine things that happened before some
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: time around the nineties. However, this is still occurring today.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: And a question that was on a lot of our
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: fellow listeners minds here was almost certainly, were there any
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: real red Sparrows. Was there any sands to this movie,
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: any real life stuff? Not just single agents, but was
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: there some sort of school. Well, according to Jason Matthews,
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: who is a CIA veteran with more than thirty years
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: in the game, Red Sparrow is somewhat real, or at
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: least inspired by true events, the Soviet Union really did
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: once run a school to train young women in being
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: professional seducers of diplomats. Oh good, So I don't seem
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: like a complete moron for referencing that movie several times.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: No No is prescient. And this is this is strange
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: because it has a lot in common with what we
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: see in the art of the con You know, when
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: we see scam artists, they prey on people's baser desires
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: and their human failings. So if you get anything from
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: today's episode, first off, if a stranger comes up to
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: you and is really trying to put the moves on you,
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: just be aware that they might have an ulterior motive,
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Not saying that love at
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: first sight doesn't happen. It's just a thing you should
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: think critically about. According to the Beatles, it happens all
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: the time. I love at first sight. They believe it anyway,
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: I I like to believe it. I would like to
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: play I love the Beatles. Ben, Can I ask you
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: a question, a personal question? Sure? Can you tell what
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: my shirt is? Uh? It's a it's a painting. It
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: looks almost like kind of like a mutant Simpson's on
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: the couch situation. That's correct, it's cool. I really did it. Thanks, Casey,
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: you're close to Ben Is. It is a painting, but
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: like you can see Marge's hair there and like a
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: weird blobby Bart and Lisa. I ordered this sight unseen
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: off of an Instagram ad. I didn't even think it
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: was gonna come, but it came. That's all I got.
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: It's the power of shipping, power of shipping indeed, and
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: the power of belief that good things will happen. Um.
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: But you're right, Ben, it's important to keep your wits
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: about you in these situations. You just you just can't
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: take everything at face value. You don't want to like
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: be suspicious of everyone that you meet and think that
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: everyone that's showing any interest you is some kind of
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: secret superspy. But you know, take care of yourselves out there, people,
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: And let us know if you have ever witnessed a
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: honey trap in operation. We totally understand if you would
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: rather not disclose your full name, etcetera, etcetera. There are
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: so many ways to get in touch with us. You
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: can find us on Instagram, you can find us on Facebook.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter as Ridiculous History, Ridiculous
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: History Show, or some derivation thereof. You can also follow
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: us on our personal adventures. I'm on Instagram as at
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: Ben Bolan and Twitter as at Ben Bowland hs W,
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: and you can find me on Instagram exclusively at how
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: Now Noel Brown Big thanks to Alex Williams, who composed
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: our theme. Super producer Casey Pegram on the case left
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: and right. Christopher Hasciot is here in spirit. Gabe Lozier
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: Research Associate, We love you Eve's Jeff Cote. Of course,
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: check out her history shows as well on our network.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: And where would we be without Young Quizzles a k a.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: The Quister a k a. Jonathan Strickling a k a.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: Quizzlers makes mouths happy? Remember that tagline for Twizzlers makes
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: mouths happy. It's kind of clunky and it feels problem
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, We'll see you next time, folks. For
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: more podcasts for My Heart Radio, visit The I Heart radio, app,
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.