Latest / Practice Ground / Josh Starmer: Why Tough Audiences Make the Best Teachers (And How StatQuest Was Born) | Ep. 10
Transcript
- Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: I'm here with Josh Dahmer. He's founder and CEO of Stats Quest, assistant professor at the University of North Carolina. and we could talk about the music he composes, also. You know, we could get into that musician. as you can see, people that might not be able to see this, but he has a whole bunch of cellos and Nifemi Aluko: Hahaha. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: whole bunch of, you know, assets in the back there. but yes, in general I see Josh Stammer as an educator, someone that condenses complex topics, makes it interesting, makes it engaging, makes it very simple. and I'm very, very happy to be able to interview you to get your insights today. Nifemi Aluko: I'm really happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: For sure, for sure. So, you know, just to give some people some background, I think it was this time, not this time. I'll say in two months, right? it'll be a one year kind of like anniversary when I met you because what I met, yeah. When I met you, I was with Deep Learning AI, the ed tech company, and you're just we were working on your course. Nifemi Aluko: That's right. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: attention in in Transformers, concepts and code in PyTorch, right? And I remember and for me I was working as you know a product marketing, right? Then and primarily what I was doing was like watching all these courses which were releasing almost every week. And I was watching them and you know eventually coming up with the marketing strategy and you know writing about them. Nifemi Aluko: Yes, right. Yeah. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: And I remember watching yours. I had a very k a similar cadence. On Monday, I'll watch the course that's coming off for the week after, right? I'll write my notes, kind of think about it, and then you know, go through the process. And I remember watching your course on Monday, and I was so excited because I'm serious because I said I know I Jeff, who was the curriculum Nifemi Aluko: Ha ha ha ha. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: director or manager was I remember sending Jeff a message like, this course is so engaging. Like I finally understand some of the concepts. And you know, when you look at that transformer, the architecture, encoder, decoder, it's been a concept that I have to kind of look at several times to understand. Right. Even so I can empathize with people that struggle with it a bit. But you made it very Nifemi Aluko: Mm-hmm. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Easy to follow the mechanics, the actual calculations. it was nice that you had some playfulness in there with what you you know, you the regular sasquash that you always have in in your writing. How do you make it or where did this concept or approach of trying to take something very complex and kind of simplifying it and making it accessible, where did that come from? Nifemi Aluko: It all goes back to, I used to work in a genetics lab and I did all the, all the data analytics in the lab, or I didn't do all of, I did a lot of it for a lot of people. And, it was important to me that not only did people know what the results of the analysis was, but they also understood sort of how it, how it occurred. and I, cause I wanted them to believe it wasn't magic and, and, and I also wanted them to trust that I'd done the right thing. These people in the lab, it was a, it's a mouse genetics lab and mouse genetics is, is, is a lot of work. it takes years to get the data that you want to publish or something like that. And, and these people like worked all the time, all day, weekends, nights, they were always there working, just trying to get their data. And I wanted them, I wanted them to think, You know, I've, I've given my data to Josh and I believe he's done the right thing with it. wanted to convince them that, that, that what I did wasn't just magic, but it was something that they could actually go, yes, you did the right thing. This is good. And so I, I was, I was trying to basically explain, explain basic statistics to my coworkers. And my coworkers hated statistics. They get, they were like, Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. That was this P value. Get this P value out of my face. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, get it out. Yeah. Yeah. Make it go away. And, and, and, and so they were kind of the ideal audience to learn how to make engaging content for, because they didn't want to hear it and they hated math and they hated all those details and things like that. And I was like, well, how am going to make this work? And so I, you know, over time, it wasn't the, I'll tell you the first time I tried it, it was a disaster. And, over time I got better and better and better at sort of engaging them and getting them excited about it, getting them interested in it, uh, getting to follow my, you know, whatever I was saying, and they could be like, I understand. And, and it took a lot of practices. This is a multi-year process. wasn't definitely not overnight. And that's ultimately how I ended up where I am now is, is, is basically. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Yeah. From that practice. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Right. That practice of Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: my coworkers. And to be honest, I still go back to that lab and I practice. I still practice with them. I, I, I, I made a, I've got a rough draft of a video that I'm working on and I, and I brought it to the lab last Friday morning and we went through the whole thing and I, I watched their faces and I, and I got this friend Dom, always looks, he's got this way of looking confused when he's confused, like his face just radiates confusion. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Really? Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: When he, when he's not following what I'm saying. So I'm always watching his face to see what's going on over there. And he gave it to me at one point. He was like, he has this look. He's like, or something like that. know, anyways, gives me that look. I'm like, I got, I got like, I got to step back. I got to think of another way to explain this. And, and so, I still do that to this very day. I'll run a lot of rough drafts, by my old colleagues. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I yeah. I found like that translation skill is very important. Like so for for myself, you know, my background is engineering. And I, you know, I started off as a chemical engineer. They started doing a lot of deploying neural network solutions in factories. So doing a lot of model predictive work. And you know, back then we used to have we were so adverse to like salespeople, right? Because we're just like Nifemi Aluko: Okay. Okay. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: get out of here, you sales guys. Like you're you're oversimplifying what we're doing, right? But I also f found that that, you know, friction was stopping us from actually selling the product, right? Because engineers were very thorough, right? So we're like, no, take that out of the proposal, take that out, that doesn't make sense. That that's not gonna work. I started to learn that you you almost need both sides, right? You need the technical understanding, but you also need the simplification. And that's why even while I was at deep learning, that was a big thing for me, was I wanted to be well versed in the actual thing before I started talking about it. So it was a very huge practice for me to be like, let me really understand this. And Similar to what you said in your message is like I I wanted the it's almost like I owed it to the technical team or all the people that had done all that work. You guys flew into the to Palo Alto, you recorded and you know, as you're saying this message of the genet the people on the genetic genetics team, you you see them putting all this work and you almost want to Make sure like, is in good hands now. Like your your your copy for me is in good hands. The same way your data for you was in good hands. Where do you think what is the drive there? What is that drive to you know to get people to be like, okay, is in good hands with this person? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Well, I don't, I don't actually know what the motive exactly what the motive was there, but I can tell you what the results were and the results were awesome. The results were, I was a, because I was able to explain what I was doing to their data and they understood it. And then they understood what the results were and they could interpret all that stuff because I was able to do that. They trusted me with their data and because they trusted me with their data, they get the, you know, They gave me some really good stuff and I ended up getting on some pretty high profile manuscripts or being like the statistician that everybody wanted to have on their manuscript. was really in demand because the researchers was like, you can actually talk to that guy. That statistician. There's a lot of statisticians here, but you can talk to that guy and he'll, and he'll talk back to you you actually understand what he says and you can trust him because when he explains what he does, it makes sense. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: And, so, by establishing that trust, I mean, it just opened up all kinds of doors at my job. And I didn't, I didn't plan on that. But but that's what happened. And I'm really, you know, obviously, I'm very glad that's what happened. I kind of got lucky, right? Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, for you, it's using statistics, right? And you're very I'll say you're a data driven person. you're also a very creative person from your storytelling, the music. But is there room for do you leave room for human elements in when you're trying to understand data that the quantitative part can't Nifemi Aluko: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: tell you? Is there room for have you built intuition on on on when you're looking at data that you're like, I'm not sure about this. I feel this is right. And when do you use that intuition? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. mean, anytime you work a lot in a field, you start realizing what the data should look like. Right. And, you can kind of tell when things are maybe mislabeled or, or there's some wonkiness here and there. yeah. I mean, I, yeah, I think you have to, you have to develop a little bit of intuition. and, and like I said, it allows me to spot sort of inconsistencies or errors, pot potential errors or labeling errors. and yeah, it's always helpful to kind of go in at least to a certain degree, knowing what to expect. So when you, when you see something different, you recognize that and you ha you can figure out a way to explain it. You're like, this is either a mistake or it's actually awesome. And things. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. Nifemi Aluko: worked even better than expected. You you learn how to like dive into those details and yeah, I think that's important. If you don't, let's say maybe it's like with your job with, with chemical engineering, like if you have no idea what to expect, it's kind of hard to know when you're doing it right and when you're doing it wrong. Yeah. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Yeah. Wrong. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. I I I find like even whether it's, you know, chemical engineering, control, industrial automation, even dust coding, I find that having this kind of mental model of what should work, what shouldn't work, is very important because if you have the tools you can Nifemi Aluko: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, right Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: You could think something is working, but it's really not working, right? You you could almost fool yourself to believe like, this thing I just you know, you know, did some vibe coding and it's doing XYZ, but you're not asking a question of like how much energy is being wasted by what you're doing. You know, you you could possibly be saving like 90% energy or tokens or money if you need to have a sense of like where to start where. for you Nifemi Aluko: Nah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: you're you have the will I say scientific side, right? The the research side, the storytelling. how do you how have you found in your career like to I say how do you know when something's worth pursuing, right? I think a challenge that I've faced, right? I saw that engine I'm an engineer. I I make music also, I write. And earlier in my career it was very tough to be like, you almost feel like you're all over the place, right? but now I'm finding a way to kind of direct my attention. How do you know when something is worth a question is worth pursuing and a project? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, right. Well, it's, feel like this question is very closely related to the last question because, again, it's sort of like, you can gain an intuition with data, but you can also gain intuition with sort of the data of your life and you kind of see what works and what doesn't work. And early on in your, career, you know, like I, I just tried everything. and some stuff worked and some stuff didn't work. I didn't really have an intuition of what would be the best approach. So I just tried a lot of different approaches and I've over time, I kind of observed what was working and what wasn't working. And I, and I got, got a sense of like, now, now I have like a lot, like when I'm making a video, I'll be like, I think a lot of people are going to want to watch this one. Or I'll be like, this one's just, this one's just for the hardcore people out there. And I'm usually pretty. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Yes, yep. Nifemi Aluko: spot on right. I can tell who which videos are going to do better than others. And I do make a lot of videos where I'm just like, I don't think anyone's gonna watch this, but I'm just doing it to be complete. And I just I feel like there'll be an itch I can't scratch if I don't have this. But yeah, it's like it's like the, the older and kind of wiser you get, you know, the more you kind of or I know about what's going to work and what's not. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Yeah. Easy? Mm-hmm. Yeah. How do you I think part of what I'm learning is is is a good there's a balance between like exploring new ideas and focusing doubling down on what's working. how do you or how have you found this balance of okay Josh it's stop it's time to stop exploring and start time to start going, right? Or it's Nifemi Aluko: Mm-hmm. Yeah, right. Yeah. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: I have several ideas for a book. Let me choose this one and go. Like when do you how how have you developed like a sense to Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. So I crowdsource all those major decisions in my life. So, so, it's fortunate that I have a, a relatively successful YouTube channel and I get a lot of feedback from the people that watch my videos and a lot of requests and a lot of things like that. And, not many people know this, but early on my, my YouTube channel, when I first started my YouTube channel, it was just called Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Tell me now. Yep. Hmm? Nifemi Aluko: It was just my name is just Josh Stammer. and I put cooking videos on my channel and, and, and that's how I started out was with cooking, cooking things. And then I started making little music videos because I used to write these songs and record them. I did, I did this project where I would write and record a new song every month and I made little music videos for him. started posting those and then I started posting like statistics videos. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Really? Okay. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: And the cooking videos and the music videos never really took off, but the statistics videos did. And after a while, it was pretty obvious. And I would still occasionally do like a music video or something like that until someone in the comments just said, look, it's pretty obvious. is a statistics channel. You need to change the name of your channel to stack quest with Josh Darmer and just stop doing all the other things and just focus on stack quest. And I said, That's a good idea. that's what I'll do. Yeah. So, so I have a, so I'm very fortunate in that I don't have to make these decisions on my own. I have a lot of people that help me out and I don't even know who they are. They're, just these random people on the internet. They're giving me feedback and, I get a lot of requests. Like for my books, I've gotten a lot of requests for books and specifically a statistics book and Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: And so I'm writing one right now. And that's all it's almost like by, I mean, I hate to say by popular demand, but there's definitely, you know, I'm, I'm following what people are asking me to do to assert. Yeah. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And and and and you know, that's the benefit of like you now you've built up this following. You have well, I say content velocity where it kind of feeds into itself. There's data coming back, feedback. you know, for me I I I have data now. You know, I've written four books, people are have told me, I I enjoy when you tell your stories this way, you know, I'm tak I'm taking notes. Nifemi Aluko: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: they they like personal stories, they want to hear more about my engineering time or my time growing up in Lagos. So, you know, feedback is great, right? And it helps. But when you're starting, you don't even there's like a blank screen or blank page, right? So when you were about to start that YouTube video, or your first YouTube video, and I just saw a podcast you're on that you said you had nine views in the first year or something like that. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Okay. Okay, Nifemi Aluko: huh. Yeah. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: great. I want to talk about that. But what made you start start with no feedback, nothing? Where where did that impulse come from where you're like, I should start doing this? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so the original, I've always used YouTube specifically as a tool to accomplish specific tasks. It's, it's my hammer. And so, I used to write a long time ago, I used to write a little newsletter for my friends and family about what I did each month, you know, sort of like a summary of, of, of, my, my month and all the things I did. And I, and I love cooking. And so that's when I started making these videos. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Mm. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: for cooking and then I would have, I would have a recipe in my newsletter and then I have a little video sort of illustrating some technique associated with that recipe, like how to cut an onion or how to mince garlic. And so I was really just sort of like using YouTube as a way to help people cook, cook my recipes. and, and I was really just reaching out to friends and family just to, you know, I think I sent my newsletter out to 10 people total. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: And then, and then I started doing music and I started telling, you know, music became part of the newsletter as well. And so I started doing music videos to sort of give people something to look at while they listened to my song. Because, because I always think it's, it's, I'm a kind of very visual person and I can listen to music, but I like it more if there's some visual component as well. So was trying to do that. And then I started teaching basics. I was teaching basic statistics to my colleagues and Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: A no. Nifemi Aluko: I dawned on me that there were two problems with me teaching in person. One was I worked in an academic laboratory at the university of North Carolina and every six months new people would come to the lab and I could either repeat the same little talk every six months for the rest of my life or I could make a YouTube video of it and then I'd never have to repeat it again. And I Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Huh? Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: That sounded like a pretty good deal. And the other thing I liked about YouTube was it allowed people to learn when they needed to learn rather than when I had time to teach. Right. And, and I was like, well, that's like two compelling reasons to start putting statistics, excuse me, statistics videos on, on YouTube. Cause I solve both of these problems and want with one tool. And so I saw Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Got it. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: I saw YouTube as a, as a way to solve those problems. so like, like you were saying, I posted my first video on R squared and, and I, and in the first year it got nine views and I got two subscribers and I was like, this is amazing because it meant that the people I made the video for my coworkers watched my video and, two of the people wanted to see even more. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Yeah. I see. Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah. Nifemi Aluko: thought that was a pretty good deal. I was really excited because my cooking videos at my, my music videos had had had, had hadn't even done that well. So I was like, I'm onto something here. I got nine views in a year. And so I was really pleased. And, I, and I felt like, you know, I can do even if, even if I only get nine views a year forever, it's still worth my while because it's because people Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. You Nifemi Aluko: peep the people in my lab can still watch these videos when they need them. And they know they're there and I'm still helping the people that I wanted to help to begin with. So it seemed like a pretty good deal to me. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Hm? Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, nice, nice, nice. And obviously you've found a way to incorporate some music into your storytelling. So that's good. and I think the last time we spoke, which was maybe four months back, we were talking about, you know, the space is moving so fast. you know, storytelling has a way to connect with people, but you have to almost find stories that can Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, I can't resist. Yeah. huh. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Actually connect with people, people are always looking for use cases that are relevant to them. what is your take on the importance of storytelling to technology? Which I'm I won't make you choose one. What's more important, the story or the technology? But what is you? I know you incorporate both of them. What how important is storytelling to technology? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. I mean, think I personally think that storytelling and good storytelling, like real storytelling, like some people are very wishy washy with the term story. I'm thinking I'm talking storytelling, like Hollywood storytelling. I think that's critical to helping people understand the technology. There's a, there's a very Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: small part of the population that can look at a co at an equation and go, I get it. There's, there's a few people that can do that, but there's lots of other people that will, that the technology plays a role in their life, either as a user or as a consumer of it. And they need to know what's going on too. And so I think, I think storytelling, Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: is a way to make what could otherwise be an impenetrable, complicated math equation. turns it into something that's engaging, turns it into something that people don't mind watching. It's not torture. And it's almost, it can be fun. could be, it could be like, this is what I'm going to do tonight. I could watch Netflix or I could watch this explanation of how XG boost works and learn something. And Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: And, I think that's, that's what I, in some respect, I think that's what I'm sort of competing with is like other ways of entertaining people. and I think it's, I think it's critical because I think P I think people need to understand technology because it's so important and in sort of modern society and modern culture. so yeah. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Yep. Mm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. so you know, you use your stories to educate people, inspire people, engage them. But as an educator, right, whether it's the stuff you do at UNC, whether it's you know, through your books, whether it's YouTube, right? We're in an era where students now can get an instant answer from genai, generative AI, right? So what does what does your job then become as an educator at this point? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Well, it changes things and it's possible that I'll have to completely reinvent myself. Right. It's, it's possible that, cause like, for example, my, my older brother, Mike, he's great. He uses AI all the time to answer questions. He'll have a question on the top of his head. His reaction, his reflex is not to go to YouTube and watch a stack West video. His reaction is to. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: Just ask an AI to give them examples so that that that he understands and he's he's actually very successful with his approach. And I mean, as an educator, my goal is for people to understand sort of technology. And if other people, if people can do that other ways, and they don't need me, then that's fine. That that that means that kind of frees me up in a way that means like, okay, it's time. It's time, Josh. It's time for you to find something else to do. And that they may come, it may not. We'll just see how see what happens. I mean, I always think about it like, Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Okay. Nifemi Aluko: Is there, what can I do to my career to sort of like AI proof it? And one thing I'm, I'm trying to do personally, like I, I'm mostly well known for, for doing YouTube, but I'm all I'm right now. I'm trying to learn how to be a better public speaker. because I think, I think if I can do in-person events, that might be a way to sort of extend my career as an educator. If I, I've got a great live show. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Uh-huh. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: Maybe that's my next step. maybe because, because people, I mean, people love AI and they love getting their information from AI, but they also love people. That's just, that's just human nature. Right. And, and they love it when it's, when it's there and it's an immediate and it's, and, and so that's, so that's one thing I'm kind of looking at on the horizon. It's like, well, maybe I need to move more into public speaking and what do I need to get there? What do I, how do I, how do I get a better? Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Yep. They love being around other people. Yep. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: stage presence, you know, stage show and all those things. What do I do to improve those? Yeah. Yeah. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. The in-person experiential I say process seems to at this point AI proof because people want to connect, humans want to connect to other people. if if you get to a point where you're like, hey Josh, we don't need you anymore. thank you very much. AI will take it from here, you know. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Go go find something else to do. What would you do? Like what based on like the things you enjoy, like what would you actually do? Nifemi Aluko: You know, if you know my fantasy is to one day open a pizza place It's been a childhood dream ever since I was in third grade. I was going to open up a pizza place with my friends and I don't know how they feel about it now, but that dream has never left me. I've, I, I've, I've, I've, I've been working on my pizza game. Like I cook pizzas at home and I've been working on it my whole life. And I've got like, I've got some good pizzas that I'm really quite proud of, but I've also Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay. Uh-huh. Nifemi Aluko: I've got some sauces that you can serve with the pizza that I'm really proud of. And, and I just, I, I, I love pizza. love beer. love beer and pizza. And I had this fantasy of opening up like a sports bar type place, you know, that's got a nice, you know, kind of like old school wooden bar and people has good pizza, but you know, people come to watch sports, just grab beer. You know, that's. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Wow, okay. Yep. Yep. Nifemi Aluko: That'll probably never happen, but it is a fantasy of mine. That's, that's my. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. I I mean, even it's still it also kind of connects to what we just talked about where it's still trying to create something that would bring people together in a place. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: together and connect with people. Yeah. I mean, that's really, think ever since another thing I've always, when I was a little, you know, as a little kid, I think I watched a Star Trek episode or movie or something like that. And Spock did this Vulcan mind meld thing where he could, he touched his head and he touched the other person's head or whatever. And they weren't able to share thoughts. And I thought that was the coolest thing ever. And I was like, I would like, that's another thing I've had my whole life is like, can I communicate so well with someone that it's almost like our minds are melded? Like we're, we were both on the same page and we're both like experiencing things the same way. And that's just, that's been a fantasy of mine as well. And like a goal, like, cause that's like, I mean, it's like the ultimate in like, in knowing someone and like a, like a, like a personal experience with somebody else. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: when you're both there and you're experiencing something and you're, and you, and you both, like your minds are thinking the same thought, right? that's the dream right there. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Connected. Yeah. I know. You know, the thing you say is very interesting because as someone that writes a lot of books and use a uses a lot of words, I still truly believe that the best writing is the one that uses the least amount of words, right? And so for me I'm always like, as much as I write, I'm like, Can I cut the stuff out? Can I cut the stuff out? And Nifemi Aluko: Mm-hmm. Yeah. yeah. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: I feel like the perfect communication is literally what you're saying. You you you look at somebody and the person is just like, got it, right? No need for words, right? And I used to the joke I crack is like when I was growing up, like if let's say I went somewhere with my mom and I was just doing something, I was misbehaving or something, my mom would look at me across the room and I can see her eyes. And as soon as I saw her eyes, I was just like, I'm doing something bad. It was clear. Nifemi Aluko: I know exactly what you're talking about. I know. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Yep. Perfect communication, right? So, you know, I I so I I wonder if we'll get to a point where that type of communication is this something to the the question I have then is it is this something that it can be worked on or is it already there? Because a lot of language is in f in person is very like you're watching body language. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Yeah, right. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: They're telling you something that they're not they're not saying it with their words, but they're saying it with their body. So yeah. So is it more of a study of body language? Or is it more of a very scientific, how can we like, how can I kind of engage with what is happening with you, with the neurons going on, sparking off in your brain? Nifemi Aluko: That's right. The whole expression. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's a great question. And I can only give you a very narrow answer to it. There's a lot of answers to that question, right? And I just have my one. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: One thing is maybe different about my videos is that you don't see me, right? So I don't use my body language to communicate but what I do use are pictures so I'm a very visual person and and that's how I try to communicate often is with pictures and and Oftentimes I try to get to the point where I don't need the words anymore. I have the words but I could But those are almost supplementary. Like we could just look at this as like a silent slideshow or I could, maybe I could strum a guitar or something like that in the background and just show these peaceful pictures of, the XG Bruce algorithm and how it works. And we could all just meditate to that. And that's, you know, that'd be like the, that might be my ultimate goal. I feel like words are very clumsy for me. I'm, I'm, I'm not a huge friend of words, but pictures. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Yeah. The word. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I can tell, you know, when you did the deep learning course, AI course, that was one of the first times I've seen so a use of that type of imagery and it was very engaging for me. So and I know it was for a lot of students that or learners that took that course. so switching to like the stuff you teach, right? Nifemi Aluko: Pictures are my friends. know, we like to hang out together and we go to parties and have fun. huh. Yeah. All right. All right. Yeah. Yeah. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: and the process of education. How do you how have you found it how do you create conditions for someone to discover something they didn't know that they needed to learn? Nifemi Aluko: yeah. yeah. So I So one, this is one of the things I try to do in all of my videos and everything I do, not just my videos, but even my pizza recipes is I try to get down to some essence, just like what's really happening. Is there, is there some way that I can go beyond just knowing it here, but I can know it here and I know that's weird to talk about mathematics and, and, and, and, and, and knowing it in your heart, but that's one of my goals is, is to get people so that it's like, it's part of them. And even people that are experts that already know what's going on, they may not have it here. And I feel like pictures, least for me, that's my way of communicating is I can use pictures sometimes and I can show them. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Mm, mm. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: what's really happening and that that knowledge can go from their head down to their heart. One way that I'm very proud of was I made a video on how basic neural networks work and I looked at everything. I looked at everybody else's way of teaching neural networks and I thought everyone did a fantastic job, some better than others, but Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: But overall, a lot of people did a great job, but what people did not do, I could not find a single example of illustrating this was intuitively what's actually happening. And what I discovered when I started plugging numbers into the equation and doing the math by hand was that neural networks take shapes like a curve, like a bit of a curve, like a little, like an arc, just a little bit of an arc. And then they stretch that bit out and then they flip it over. And so then they, so they manipulate that arc and then the neural network takes another arc. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Nothing. Mm-hmm. Okay. Nifemi Aluko: stretches it out, bends it, flips it and moves it around, shifts it up and down. And then it takes those two shapes, those two arcs or even more, and it adds them together. And when you add it together, you get a brand new shape that neither of those arcs could do on their own. But when they're added together, now they now instead of just being a curve, we can have a squiggle that almost looks like a bell shaped curve because we've, we've added two different shapes together to get Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. yeah. Nifemi Aluko: something that goes up and then we can add something that makes it then go back down and, the visual, the way looking at and seeing it happen. No one had seen that. And I was like, you know, this is intended for beginners. This video is intended for absolute beginners, but I felt like most people who'd use neural networks could still benefit from watching this. Cause I think if they saw it, they would be like, Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Go down. Yep. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: that's okay. I saw the equation. I understood the equation. But now I really know what's going on, you know, and I have an intuition for it. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And and you know what you what you're saying really resonates because everybody learns stuff differently, right? I I remember when I was at Stanford, and I was taking one of these, I think it was microeconomics during in business school. And the professor is a very like hardcore like data type of person, right? So he's he's talking about what was he talking about, externalities, right? He's talking about tax and externalities, and he's talking about this stuff, and he draws it, you know, demand, supply. Then there's a little sliver, right? Of externalities, and I saw everybody was, in my opinion, everybody was lost, right? So I put my hand up, I was like, Hey, Professor, do you mind like explaining this in a way that I I can understand? Right, I I I didn't say it in an offensive way, but I was like. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Yeah. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Hey, literally what I was asking was like, Can you like give me an example of this externality thing? It's the first time I'm hearing this concept. Just tell me what it is like in the market or something. And then I messed up by saying, Hey man, I'm just an engineer. I'm trying to understand this business concept, right? And the guy got excited. He was like, you're an engineer? Then he turns around and he starts drawing like differential equations on the board and integrals and everything. And everybody just looked at me like, bruh, you just made a mass, you just made it worse. But I I understood what he said with the integrals. I got it. But what I was looking for was more of just maybe an example of like. Yeah. Yeah, just give me an example, sir. but it's the visual is very important and also just meeting people where Nifemi Aluko: You made it worse. Yeah. huh. Yeah, right. That's really what you wanted. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: They are right. Even though they're like, Can you explain this better? I'm an engineer. The person might be saying something else, you know, deeper. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. I like the way you phrase that meeting people where they are rather than having them come all the way to me. You meet them where they are. And they're like, that was easy. Otherwise they got to like, they got to walk up a mountain and then down the other side and it could take days, but yeah. Right. But if you meet them, then you're like, here it is. And they're like, I got it. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Yep. Mm-hmm. I know. Yeah, like what we doing here. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. so you know, the space is changing a lot, as you know, particularly AI, right? That which kind of sits on top of statistics, mathematics, data engineering, all that kind of stuff. How do you stay aligned in your taste, the things you value in such a noisy environment? Nifemi Aluko: Mm-hmm. I have another secret weapon. I'm a very slow learner. And so I have to like, have to be selective. I have to go, is this thing just going to be a flash in the pan or is it going to last six months or a year or people going to still be talking about it next year? And, and so Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Ha ha ha. Nifemi Aluko: And I'm actually, not very good at that either. Like trying to decide what's going to last and what's not going to last. So what I do is I just wait a year. I just wait a year and then I go, okay, this is what lasted from last year. And so I can learn about this stuff. Cause if it's, if it's made it 12 months, it's, know, it's probably going to make another 12 months. So it's worth, it's worth me spending my time and effort to learn. I, so Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Yeah, it's patience. Yep. Nifemi Aluko: The confession is I'm never on the cutting edge of anything. I'm always a couple of years behind. Cause, cause by the time, you know, if I wait a year and then by the time it takes, I learn it, it's another six months to a year. You know, it's like now I'm two years behind, I found that overall that's, you know, good enough for a lot of people. Cause it allows me to identify the things that are important. And so even though I'm two years behind that information is still going to be useful for people for the next 10 years. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Mm. Mm, mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: you know, rather than spending a lot of effort and time on something that's only going to be talked about for the next two months, right? So. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: A rapper. Exactly, exactly. And that that really helps with that sense of FOMO in, you know, people feeling like they're they're about to miss out on the next big thing. in situations when you do feel like things are moving around quickly, d do you have any practices to keep you centered or to bring meaning into your life when things start to get blurry? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Yeah. I always look at what the main idea is. so right now, so for example, let's talk about AI. one of the things that has to happen in AI is it has to keep track of the order of the input. So like, if I, the example I always give is, there's these two phrases, squash eats pizza, squatch is my friend's step squash. Who he loves pizza, squash eats pizza. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Uh-huh. Nifemi Aluko: means one thing and pizza eats squash means the exact opposite, right? On the one hand, squash is like, I'm eating pizza. And on the other hand, squash is running away because the pizza is going to eat him. So the order, both sentences have the same exact words, but have different meanings. And so order of words is very important. So AI has to keep track of the word order. And there's lots and lots of ways to do that. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: And I have learned one of them, but I feel like that's good enough. And tells someone comes up with a completely new way of organizing the data. don't need to learn every single way a transformer can keep track of word order. Cause fundamentally, even though I only learned one method, fundamentally, all the other methods are doing the same thing. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Uh-huh. Yeah, I see. Got it. Yep. Similar yeah. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: And that's the main idea. The main idea isn't the actual technique. The main idea is what it's doing. And so I focus on those things. And if someone comes up with someone, you know, an AI model that does something different, well, that's very interesting and worth diving into. But if someone just makes a minor tweak and like, well, this one's a little more efficient or this one, it makes it a little easier to train. like, well, that's great, but I don't need to learn that. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Domin. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I feel you. I I really like that. is a good way to kind of stay centered and just dealing with the foundations and build on that. do you have any practices that gives you access to will I say truth, creativity, beauty in life? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. Let's go back to that stack with the original stack quest I did on neural networks. When I saw firsthand for the first time what that neural network was doing, that was all those things you just mentioned. That was, it was beautiful. was, I, it was euphoric for me. Like there was, because all of a sudden I understood it in a way that I'd never understood it before. And not only did I understand it, I, could feel it. had, I had an intuitive sense. for what was going on in a way that I'd never had before. And just that feeling I got was amazing, right? And it was as good as, in some ways, it was more exciting than writing a song. I love writing songs, right? And writing a song is a rush. It's so exciting, because it's like you're creating something new and it's beautiful and it's awesome. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Mm. Yep. Nifemi Aluko: making this video, I was creating something new and it may not be aesthetically beautiful, but what it did is it, it scratched an itch I'd I'd had for years in a way that writing a song typically doesn't scratch an itch that I've had for years. Usually a song is a more immediate satisfaction. And so in some respects, making that video was more of an aesthetic experience. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: than even some of the most cool musical moments I've had in my life. And I've had some really cool musical moments. I've been very, very lucky with my musical life. But I take a lot more pride in what I did with those neural networks. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. nice, nice, nice, nice. Yeah. And and and and just to mention and you know, musical moments, I know you created like some electro acoustic cello music. and I think you were kind of composing that with like a with a group or how did you d just briefly touch on that? Like what how did you how did you come up on that? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, so I grew up playing the cello, which was like a classical, you know, European instrument. and I actually, for a while, that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to join an orchestra and play classical music for the rest of my life. I thought that was a good idea. but you have to be really, really good at playing the cello and I'm good. I'm good at the cello. I'm not really, really good. and I learned early on. I, Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: I tried to get really, really, really good, but I, but my, body, my hands just aren't made for that kind of repetitive work that's required to get to that level. I got all kinds of tendonitis and it was just a kind of a nightmare, but, I love playing music. And so I was like, well, you know, what else can I do with my cello? was like, well, I can join a rock band and And that ended up being, uh, you know, like, you know, how I was talking about, like, I kind of got lucky with that. Well, I did. I got lucky in that, you know, for example, say like I, I played the guitar, right? Well, if I wanted to join a rock band, then I'd have to be better than all of the other guitar players out there at wanted to play in the same band. And I, uh, Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Yep. Nifemi Aluko: I got lucky because I played the cello and so I didn't have to compete with anybody. I just had to say, Hey, I'm playing the cello and check it out. I can, I can add this extra dimension to your band. And they're like, they go, well, nobody else has ever offered to play cello in our band. So you're allowed to join our band. And, and I've had a lot of like, and as a result of that, it opened up all kinds of doors. got to play with all kinds of fancy people on all kinds of fancy stages. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Right. Nifemi Aluko: And, had, you know, I was able to do it professionally for a while and it was a, it was a kind of a dream come true. and so, you know, but, but music was like, but I got there because I took my weakness, which was I'm not the best cello player and I turned it into my strength and that I'm the only cello. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: you can be up. Nifemi Aluko: So I, I, I found a way to kind of open up doors and, and, and new ways. And I got really lucky with that. And it's, and it's been fantastic. Um, but I will say one thing as, as glamorous as playing in a rock band on a big stage for thousands of people's can possibly sound. And it is cool. Don't, don't get me wrong. I much rather do what I do now. And the reason being is what I do now. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Uh-huh. Nifemi Aluko: requires me to always be learning and always be changing and growing. Whereas in rock and roll, as cool as it looks from the audience, you just have to play the same songs night after night after night after night. And after a while, I felt like I wasn't growing. I felt like I wasn't learning new things. And I felt very stagnant in my life. And I've never ever once had that feeling explaining statistics to people. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: So it's strange that I'm like, you know, I'm really glad this is what I, this is the way things turned out. And I'm not a rock star instead. I'm a, uh, a celebrity statistics teacher. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I hear you. And and you know, I think that has actually brings me to this final question, right? For today. And it's a very is a fun one. I've been asking everybody this. so if the entire world, right, went dystopian, right? Dystopian is, man, these this AI system got out of control. We're all kind of enslaved to the to the machines and working for them, blah, blah, blah. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, okay. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Or utopian. Utopian is, you know, we've built this type of friendly AI that helps us be our better selves, all that kind of stuff. perhaps maybe universal basic income for everybody, so nobody has to work, you know, who knows, right? All right. So choose one of these two scenarios, dystopian, utopian. And after you choose, can you tell me the one daily practice that you'll be doing every day in either of these worlds? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. I I'll tell you something that's, I love jogging. would, I would jog. I love it. I love jogging. why do I love it so much is I can always, I, it's like my, it's like a time where I can solve puzzles in my head and I can get out of ruts and I can be creative and I can come up with new ideas. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: But I also like to jog with friends. It's like a, for me, it's like a great way to hang out with my buddies is to, get on a, on a trail and we just run and, we get tired and we start walking, but we're talking the whole time and we're having a great time and we're just shooting the breeze. And it's just, it's one of my favorite ways to pass time. So if I'm, you know, if I have a universal income and I don't have to work ever again, I mean, I'd still probably, I, I'd still probably Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Do Nifemi Aluko: try to come up with some way to communicate. Cause that's still my vision, right? Is, is how can I, how can, how can I, can, how can me and other people be on the exact same page, you know, and be communicating so fluently that like all we just look at each other and we know what we're thinking. I that's always going to be there. But, and you know, and in a dystopian thing, maybe I'll Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: try to use my communication to like overthrow the AI, right? You know, like, can I can I help people, you know, upscale to a point where we can we can win the world back? I don't know. Turn it into a utopia. Maybe we could do that. So I don't know. I'm kind of Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Yeah, yeah. Do it. Yep, yep, yep, yep. Yeah. Yeah, man. That is it. I mean it's it's a very hypothetical question and it's very interesting to hear the perspective. You know what's funny? I'm seeing a trend. As crazy as this question sounds, I'm seeing a trend, people saying it's similar. There's a lot of like, you know, connecting with people. That's there's a lot of that that is very interesting. So it's helping me kind of base, okay, where what direction do I go with this book? Nifemi Aluko: Everyone answers it the exact same way. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: Right, because at the end of the day, it's human to want to connect to other humans. Right. So, anyways, Josh, thank you very, very much for the time. I always enjoy talking to you and you know, wish you all the best as you finish up your your book and always looking looking forward to all the stuff that you create. Nifemi Aluko: Thank you. I really appreciate it. Thank you very much for having me. It's just great. Josh Starmer Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 249ms StreamYard: For sure. For sure. All right. I'm going to end the recording.