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Trauma and Relational & Embodied Language with Sarah Peyton: from the archives · The Trauma Therapist

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Or welcome back to the Trauma Dippist podcast. My name is Gaming Person.
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My mission is to help trauma therapist be their incredible selves, to be human,
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to be real, not just a clinician. I'm a big believer in
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who we are is more important than what we know, and this requires cultivating
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authenticity, genuineness, and vulnerability, and that requires intention. Can learn more
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about my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma Therapist project dot com.
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That's the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Let's get started, all right,
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guys, Welcome back to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. Super excited to have back
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on the podcast. Sarah Peyton, Sarah welcome. Oh, I'm so happy
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to be here. All right. So Sarah joined us back on episode two
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hundred and sixty. She's a certified trainer of non violent community teaches people how
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language changes relationship in the brain. Sarah works with audiences internationally you could create
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a compassionate understanding of the effects of relational trauma on the brain, and writes
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about and teaches people how words change and heal us. Her special interest is
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the way that difficult events impact our autonomic brain patterning and how to transform our
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tendencies towards self criticism into self worth. Her first book, Your Resonant Self
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Guided Meditations and Exercises to engage your brain's capacity for healing is out. Sarah,
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welcome back. Thank you. I'm so glad to be here. All
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right. So let me tell you something. And I don't know if I
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share this to you when I asked you invited you back on here, but
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you're one of the people who when I think of this podcast and when I
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think of what I'm hoping to do with this podcast, which is to really
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focus on, you know, humanity, the relational aspect of engaging with someone
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working with someone who's been impacted by trauma, and what that implies and infers
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and means really for the person doing that work as well as a client.
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You're one of the people that I think epitomizes this work and so I mean
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that completely sincerely. So I'm super excited you're here. Oh. I love
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your work too, guy, and I'm very glad to be here. Awesome.
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So let's start out with quote. You said you had a quote that's
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gonna launch us. What do you have for us? I have the quote,
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let's be angry that rather than angry at so the idea of beginning to
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move this we're going to be thinking about yaka punk steps work today with them
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circuits of motivation and emotion and the way in which all of us have of
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what's called a rage circuit. We all have the capacity to move into the
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life serving energy of being able to say in a way no. So our
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bodies are mammal bodies and they are equipped with seven different circuits that punccept determined,
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and eight if you count the eighth, which is a very interesting one,
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which we'll talk about in a moment. But this idea of anger as
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a life serving force that is needed and necessary for all of us is hugely
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important when we begin to think about trauma and the healing of trauma, because
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so often we as little people, little children, have experienced being impacted by
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other people's anger or rage in ways that were different, dangerous, and not
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even vaguely life serving. So the idea that rage and anger can be a
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life being force is often almost mind boggling for people who are trying to heal
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from trauma. And yet if we don't reclaim it, we're leaving, almost
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like we're leaving a swath of embedded trauma that's preventing us from accessing our life
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energy. So, having said that, if we may circle back to the
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you're making the distinction between angry at or angry that, yeah, talk about
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that. Yeah. So oftentimes when we're small, people have been angry at
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us, or they've been angry at our mother, or they've been angry at
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their mother, or they've been angry at a person, and they bring this
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rage in interpersonal relationship with words, with actions, with force, with damage
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to furnace or with damage to households, to pets, to people, to
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self. And so of course we would say, for example, I'm not
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going to do that. I'm not going to be an angry person. I'm
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not going to go there, I Am not ever going to get angry.
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Many trauma survivors will have this almost as a promise to themselves, whether they
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can keep it or not, because of course anger breaks through. But then,
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of course if they have this agreement with themselves, there's a terrible guilt
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about the anger having broken through. And if we begin to move toward an
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understanding that we can be angry, that that we can be angry that life
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has turned out this way, that we can be angry that our boss is
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put in a position where he can't support us. If we can be angry
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that there's not enough money to pay the mortgage, if we can be angry
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that the world is set up in such a way that children don't get the
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opportunities that we want them to have. There's an entire we're starting to feel
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this difference. It's an embodied sense of of accessing protective and protective force and
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advocacy, right right, Okay, I'm shaking my head because I think I'm
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getting it. So in a sense, it's almost like you're you're making a
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distinction between being angry at someone or angry I'm angry at you for what you
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did, rather than angry at the action that angry that this happened, right
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right, right, Okay, So that's that's a huge It seems like a
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really big shift, And I can imagine what that would be like for someone
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not only on the receiving end, but also someone who's working with that person
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that you were talking about, someone who's on the receiving end of that use.
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These distinctions are one of the things that I think so intrigues me about
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about your work. How do you come up. What draws you to this?
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How do you? I don't know. I'm just kind of fascinated with
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the whole process. Well, most often what I'm doing is following some line
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of inquiry that comes from working with folks in my workshops or the questions that
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they bring. So somebody will say, what about anger? I don't ever
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want to be angry? And I'll think, wait a minute, I was
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just reading yak punk sp and we've all got an anger circuit. What's happening
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for this person if they're never getting angry? What happens inside of them?
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What kind of life energy are they having to turn away from? How are
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they having to divert life energy? And this starts to get interesting here,
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because we have all of these different circuits of emotion and motivation. One of
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them is what you know panks have called the rage circuit. Another one is
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the circuit for when we really miss somebody who's important to us. So for
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little mammals, it's the panic circuit of like the missing mother. But that
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panic circuit for little mammals holds all of our grief and our shame emotions.
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It holds the emotions of what I call alarmed a loneness, which is the
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experience of Often we'll call it abandonment in English, but that word tends to
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imply that somebody has abandoned us. So what if we call it alarmed a
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loneness and then we begin to kind of more clearly understand what's at play with
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our nervous system. And so, for example, you'll sometimes meet people whenever
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they get angry, they start to cry. It's there's in it begins.
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This takes us back to the work of Beatrice b which is also extraordinary work,
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and what her research shows us is that before up until the age of
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four months, a baby has all the facial expressions that they're born with.
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They are born with all the human facial expressions grief, anger, all the
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different levels and intensities of fear, of surprise, of happiness, and by
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the time we're four months old, we stop expressing the emotions that our mothers
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are not able to reflect. So if our moms are not able to reflect
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anger, it's already starting here that we're turning our life energy out of the
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anger circuit. Maybe she can be with us when we cry, so it's
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like we're channeling that life energy of anger into the grief circuit, and then
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every time we get angry, we find ourselves crying and we're like, why
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the heck am I crying? I'm angry. I want to be able to
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access my righteous indignation, my power of advocacy, and instead here I am
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with these tears springing out of my eyes. It's an entanglement of the circuits
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that comes from these early experiences. Or when we're talking about trauma and its
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effect on anger, if we had somebody who every time that they got angry,
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they were angry at us or at somebody that we loved, we start
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to have an entanglement of fear and anger, and every time somebody gets angry,
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then the fear circuit goes off, so it's like we stop. What
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trauma does to us is it makes our brain stop having choice because the trauma
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ties brain function, brain functions, and brain circuitry together in order to to
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try to make the best plan for our survival. So it's like the brain
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believes, Okay, every time somebody gets angry, i'd better get afraid because
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I want to be able to get my body out of here. I think
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that that that's phrase trauma prevents us or stops us from having choice. Let's
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kind of if we if we can kind of magnify that, and if you
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can speak about a little more what that means for someone who what that might
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mean for someone who's who's experienced trauma. And obviously but it complex trauma,
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interpersonal trauma. Sure, sure, well. One of the things that we
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know about trauma is that the amygdala has like a super glue power of memory,
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and it'll take everything that's connected with the original trauma and it'll glue it
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together. It's easy for us to see this with like flashbacks from war.
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A car backfires and somebody who was a soldier or lived in a war zone
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finds themselves diving behind a part bench before they even realize they've moved. The
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wiring is so intense, loud, explosive noise, danger must hide. That's
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something that's really familiar to all of us. But what we may not realize
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is on the emotional and motivational circuit level that trauma will also tie things together.
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So we've talked about anger and grief being tied together, and anger and
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fear being tied together, but it's also possible we have a seeking circuit and
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our seeking circuit is meant to take us through the world. It's it's what
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gives us curiosity. It's what gets us to finish our to do list.
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It's what gets us to create the trauma therapist and get out there and bring
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a mission to the world. It's our seeking circuit is an incredibly beautiful part
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of our being, but when it gets entangled by trauma, then it can
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kind of gum up the works quite extraordinarily. So if the seeking circuit gets
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entangled with the fear circuit, then every time we try to take a step
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in the world to realize our goals, there's like a level of fear that's
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present. So you're starting to see the gumminess of that I'm talking about.
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Yeah, I mean, I can also see how this could be extremely helpful
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and almost empowering for someone who's experienced trauma to think that, for one,
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oh my god, I have a rage circuit and a panic circuit and a
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seeking circuit, among others, and telling me that that's why, First of
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all, I didn't even realize I had this. How you're telling me it's
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all shut off or it's gummed up. No wonder why things are happening where
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I'm feeling this way exactly. So as a what a facilitator or a clinician
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or speak from that vantage point, then how does that become helpful? Sure,
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you can do it with bodies, and you can do it with language.
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So I'll tell a story because I got a great story about doing it
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with bodies, and then I'll talk about how we do it with language.
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I was working with a woman who was seventy years old, and she sat
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down next to me in the workshop and I said, what would you like
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to work on? And she said, I have been terrified all of my
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life. I've spent my whole life being terrified. I've never taken an unterrified
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breath. And I said, tell me a little more about this, and
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she said, well, there was a really hideous period of time when I
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was three years old. My mother went into the hospital. I had to
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I had to stay with some people that really hurt me. And I was
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like, okay, let's let's take a look at this marriage of your three
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year old self with the terror. So we just we invited somebody to stand
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up for the three year old self and somebody to stand up for the terror.
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So that she could see this so that it made sense to her and
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it was outside of her own body, and she looked at this and we
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worked for a little bit, just acknowledging stuff and her telling the story.
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And as she was telling the story, the terror and the little girl began
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to separate a little bit. And I turned to her about ten minutes in
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and I said, tell me, how are you doing. She said,
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I'm not scared. This is the first time in seventy years that I haven't
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been scared. And it was so it was such as we worked for maybe
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ten or fifteen more minutes after that, just kind of tying a blue sense.
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But that moment was so lovely because once she knew she had a fierce
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circuit and she understood why it had been on alert, and she understood.
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There's something about healing trauma. I think that always does this, that there's
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a separation in time of the person from the traumatic moment. When she's like,
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oh, it's my three year old self that's terrified. I don't have
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to be terrified at the age of seventy that happened sixty seven years ago.
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Then there's a like a relaxation that comes into the body and something very different
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starts to happen. One of the precepts of interpersonal neurobiology is that our brain
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always wants to heal, that it gets stuck in places, but it's there's
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a continuing sort of life force that's there trying to get through the stuck places,
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and the work that all of us do with trauma seems to really support
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that idea. Here's this woman going, oh my god, I'm not scared.
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Had she been had she been in therapy before at all? She had
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been in therapy. Yeah, it's like the experience of um U talking about
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rather than talking with is an interesting another quote that we could work with.
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Yeah, but I think what what you just talked about? That? I
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mean, there's so many things going on there from my perspective. I mean,
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first of all, just in a very simplistic way, you're externalizing that
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happened by bringing these two two other people, yeah, and putting them out
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there and creating a relationship between it and her being over here, And that's
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pretty powerful in and of itself. Yes, um so wow, that's that's
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I mean, after seventy seventy years, this idea that she's able to finally
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be free from this, uh what fear or sense? And it was an
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entanglement of the circuits, you know, it was an entanglement in a way,
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of the fear circuit with the sense of self without any clarity that the
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sense of self that the fear was entangled with was three years old and had
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very good reasons for being afraid. So the way that we could do this
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with language if we don't, you know, if we're not working with bodies
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in space is and this is really fun work, is to have a conversation
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with the circuits. We can start to invite and some of the folks who
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do ifs will probably be really like going, oh, yeah, I can
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see how this came digue yeah, yeah. So that what happens when we
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dialogue and directly with the fear circuit. What happens if we say well,
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of course, well of course you're afraid. Of course you're on alert.
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Let's look at what happened to you. There's a directiveness. There's a a
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relational connection with the part of self that transforms trauma. So if you are
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with a therapist who's talking about it rather than talking to it, then you
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never get to have those direct conversations if you will. Yeah, So we
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can spend a lot of time telling the story of the trauma that happened to
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us. We can say, when I was three, this happened, it
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was terrible, my mother went to the hospital. I ended up living with
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other people. They were terrible people. And there we are that that hasn't
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changed anything, because well, it may change things. The narrative therapy has
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a way of working with this so that the telling of the story can really
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be transformative. So I don't want to put any disrespect to narrative therapy,
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but but there's something that happens in this In this like embodiment of the parts
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of our brain where we're giving them a voice. That's similar to the woman
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sitting and looking at her fear circuit from the outside. The speaking directly to
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the fear circuit is a transformative act. It's an act of respect, it's
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an act of acknowledgment. It's like saying to the person and their brain,
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this makes sense, and it's giving the brain a chance to see that it
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doesn't have to be stuck. So it's almost like the amygdala creates a force
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field around a trauma experience, and the only way into that force field.
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The only way past the force field is to begin to vibrate at the frequency
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that amygdala is vibrating at, and it's holding of the trauma, which is
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also important to us in terms of those circuits, the circuits of emotion and
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motivation. If the amygdala is vibrating with grief holding this packet of information and
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we're trying to vibrate at the level of fear, there's no completion of the
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circuit for the amygdala. The amygdala needs to be met in the brain zone
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that it's vibrating. Amygdala is There are two amygdala is one and left hemisphere
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one in the right hemisphere. They have different zones for different emotional experience.
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If you're having fear, energy and information is flowing through the amygdala at a
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different place than if you're having rage. If you're having rage, it's flowing
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through in a different place than if you're experiencing grief. So when we're talking
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to trauma, we're talking to amitulas, and we need to have we need
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to have a sense of what emotional tone, which circuit needs to be spoken
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to first. One of the ways that I let people explore this is to
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think of a frozen moment and then to ask themselves in this frozen moment,
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am I afraid? Am I angry? Or do I feel terribly alone?
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Because those are the three emotional circuits that create frozenness. Are when we go
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through the intensity of those three circuits, will end up in a dissociated or
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immobilized place. And so it becomes very interesting to say, what is the
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core? What is the emotional tone of this particular frozen nous? Is it
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frozen rage? This is such an interesting question because sometimes people will believe that
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it's all terror, that they're frozen with terror, but nothing changes because they're
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they're sending a vibrational quality of like is it terror? Is it terror?
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And the trauma bubble isn't changing, the force field isn't changing because actually it's
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vibrating with rage or it's vibrating with a loneness. Is this making any sense?
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Guy? It's sounding It's sounding very intense in the sense that what I'm
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feeling is that you're using it sounds like you're using language in what feels to
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me like an embodied relational way. You're you're inviting the person to yes to
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think about these different circuits. But along with that, there's going to be
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a somatic sense coming up. Yes, and exactly this relational piece of the
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other person being able to say, well, of course you know, of
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course you are terrified, of course you are alone. Of course there was
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an alarmed aloneness. At what point, Sarah, are I mean? Obviously
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you don't. Someone just doesn't sit down and you start asking these questions,
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how do you determine to to to you know, to get in there?
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How does that work well with me? When since I'm doing workshop work.
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Uh, but you can do it with you can do it with client work
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as well. My question is always what what are you up against? What
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are you? What do you what do you want us to you know,
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how do you want us to support you? Today? And um and I
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love it that you bring up the relationational piece because if we track back to
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be atris Bibe, we have this whole content area of trauma and the matching
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emotional tones that come into the relationality. But there's also something quite extraordinary that
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happens in conversations that's all about rhythm and timing, about how about how there
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how there is both a matching and a differentiation between the two people, And
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this This is where we really, I think, enter the most often unconscious
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art of therapy, or the most unconscious art of working with trauma, is
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that there's an emotional tone that gets that gets resonated with, that helps to
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dissolve the force field of that particular trauma. But there's also something incredibly relational
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and foundational that's happening in the movement of our faces together and the timing of
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our heads moving together, the moments where we move into synchrony and the moments
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when we move out of synchrony, and the places where the gaps, like
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if I'm silent for too long, then there's there can be like a gap
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of a sense of not being accompanied that ends up being far less about emotional
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tone and far more about timing, rhythm, presence that's just right for the
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other. So are you saying that those elements are unconscious? Is that what
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you said? I said, most often unconscious? There's folks who research these
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beauture Sphebe does research into this, as we was, into the faces of
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four month old infants and their mothers. She also looks at what happens in
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a therapy session, what happens, what happens relationally between two people that are
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creating almost a fabric in which the healing can be held. So as as
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someone who's been been doing this for a while, I mean, obviously it,
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I mean to what degree does that just happen? Is that that that
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presence you talked about, or authenticity or compassionate vulnerability, are those things that
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you consciously cultivate and then when you're working with someone they appear? Um.
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I think more it's about doing our own work, because the more that we
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do our own work, the more that we move into the part of the
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nervous system that enables ease and fluidity and attention in relational connection. I was
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working with something to come back to the circuits and then to integrate this.
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I was working with someone in a workshop where her circuit for seeking was entangled
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with grief because of the loss of her father. It's like, when her
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father died, she didn't want to go forward anymore without him. She just
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wanted to stay with him, And any forward movement at all, any movement
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into the seeking circuit, into any movement into doing, was a movement that
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took her away from her father, and she didn't want to leave him.
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So we did some of this conversation work with her, with her seeking circuit,
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and in a way disentangled movement. Again, these small words are so
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beautiful, and disentangled movement toward from, movement away from, so that she
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got to have a sense that she could move forward in her life without leaving
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her father, that he would still be with her as she moved. And
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after she did this little piece of work, this disentangling work, so that
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she could still move forward, she was surprising to me. She turned and
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she looked at the audience. There were eighty people in the auditorium, and
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she looked at the audience as she said, Oh my goodness, look at
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all these people. What beautiful faces. And she went and she got a
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chair and she sat behind me the stage. She said, can I do
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this? I said, of course. She sat behind me on this stage
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for the next hour, and she just looked at all the faces. Our
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nervous system. When we have a sense of when our circuits get disentangled,
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our nervous system can be fluid and responsive and we get to move out of
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immobilization into engagement. So this is the work of Stephen Porgi's beautiful work of
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Stephen porgis when we're in the engaged place social engagement, there's a fine feed
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from the facial muscles to the brain. When we're when we're stuck in immobilization,
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the face collapses, the muscles of the face sag and become heavy,
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and we no longer have access to the mirror neurons that allow us to have
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the sweet interaction between faces that creates emotional engagement. And so there's a couple
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of things that are happening. When our facial muscles are engaged. The muscles
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of the middle ear tightened to the sound range of the human voice. When
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that happens, the eye muscles tighten so that we can see the human face,
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and the muscles of the larynx relax and support full emotional expression in the
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voice. And as soon as we start to get scared or angry or have
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a sense of alarmed aloneness, we lose all that fine feed. We're no
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longer in nuanced space. So this speaks to the importance of the therapists doing
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their own work, because if the therapist circuits are entangled then not moving fluidly,
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then the therapist is not able to be in responsive, fluid space and
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may be able to do the work of catching content trauma content, but doesn't
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have the nervous system pieces in place to be able to weave that fine relational
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holding of the whole. I'm just gonna check if I'm making any sense at
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all. Yeah, you are. And I'm thinking to myself, you obviously
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have been doing this for a while, and it the sensitivity that it sounds
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like you have to, you know, be attuned to what's going on on
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a relational level, on a verbal level, and at a somatic level,
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all these things are happening. I'm like, wow, yeah, this is
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why I say. You know, it's largely unconscious for most of us,
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and for me it's largely unconscious most of the time. I do know it's
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here, but but yeah, I mean for those of us, for those
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listeners who are out there going, oh my god, this sounds amazing.
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How do I learn about this? How can I I could even imagine that
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some people are like, oh my god. You know, I could never
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get to the point where I'm so attuned with the people I'm working with,
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but obviously people can get there. What do you what would you say?
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What would you recommend? How does someone kind of begin to sink their teeth
33:17
into learning about these different things. My book Your Resonantself is a wonderful resource
33:25
and make it makes this stuff down so that we can kind of kind of
33:30
makes it usable and experiential if you love the nuts and bolts of the micro
33:39
expressions and what happens in terms of attachment and this weaving of the fabric.
33:45
That work is Beatrice Phoebe's. I believe she's deeply extraordinary. And I can
33:53
only read about a paragraph a month because it disturbs my attachment pane and I
34:00
just have to stop and mourn, mourn my own mothering more in all the
34:07
years that I was with clients or you know, people in workshops and didn't
34:10
know and you know so so Beatrice BB's extraordinary, difficult for me, difficult
34:17
to read and extraordinary. I have I'll have that linked about the Yeah,
34:23
yeah, okay, so your RESIDENCELF at your book, Beatrice Bby. And
34:29
also you mentioned um. I mentioned Stephen Porgis who has DA Dana somebody,
34:36
and he have just published a book poly Bagel Theory and Therapy, which will
34:39
have a lot of this stuff quite beautifully expressed. I've just started reading it.
34:46
Good poly Bagel theory. And then the other person I mentioned was Stephen
34:51
Porgies. Okay, oh sorry, Stephen Porgis was that sorry? The other
34:52
person I mentioned was yak Punk step and he has died now, but his
34:57
latest book was called The Aology of Emotion. Okay, and correct me from
35:01
wrong? Wasn't didn't co author several with Kathy Steel. I'm not uh not
35:12
remembering okay, okay, ye, the other before we go. One of
35:16
the things, Sarah, that that again keeps coming up. There's a sense
35:22
of uh empowerment that comes up for me in hearing about these different circuits and
35:30
being able to see them, uh in relation. Yeah, you know myself.
35:37
I'm putting myself in that position being able to see oh them, being
35:42
able to move apart, and understanding how uh they're they're impacting me. Uh
35:52
So. Yeah, I just wanted to say that I really like things that
35:57
are the fabory. Yeah. It's it's uh, it's illuminating and and takes
36:06
us a whole new place, really awesome. Yeah, Sarah, again,
36:13
I'm excited to get this out there. I want to thank you so much
36:15
for taking the time to do this, Thank you for having me here.
36:17
You are welcome um Sarah Payton's book Is Your Residence off of how this linked
36:22
up again at the show notes page at the traumat Therapist podcast dot com.
36:25
And thank you so much, take care of thank you, Thank you. Guy two