Latest / Beyond the Facade with Choose Recovery Services and Blueprint Institute / 70: What Does Real Recovery Look Like? Part 2

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70: What Does Real Recovery Look Like? Part 2 · Beyond the Facade with Choose Recovery Services and Blueprint Institute

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  Hey everybody. OK, so we're on the episode 2 of
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  this series on what real recovery looks like after some
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  type of infidelity, betrayal, or sexually compulsive behavior.
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  So the question I have for you, which continuation from last
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  time is real recovery? Is it about your action?
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  Is it about your behavior? How do you measure it?
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  We're going to be talking green flags.
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  Red flags. Let's jump back in where we left
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  off. Welcome to Beyond the Facade
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  podcast. I'm your host, Luke Gordon, and
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  I'm thrilled to have you join me in this space today.
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  What we're going to be doing is diving deep into the trials and
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  triumphs and truths of seeking authenticity.
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  Becoming your true self isn't about a single action or a
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  moment. It's a relentless pursuit, a
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  commitment to self that reveals the rich connection and meaning
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  that our life has to offer. So whether this is your first
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  time tuning in or you're a regular listener, know this.
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  What you're building here goes beyond a conversation.
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  You're here to challenge, to change, and to celebrate the
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  incredible journey of becoming your authentic self.
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  Because when you dare to show up fully, the rewards are
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  immeasurable. So welcome to Beyond the Facade.
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  Let's get started. So again, Alana's here with me
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  and glad, grateful to have you here, Alana.
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  We'll jump right into it. We decided to do red flags
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  first, right, Alana? Is that what you're saying?
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  A lot of fun. Yeah, Greg.
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  So this one's what we call boundaries and lifestyle shifts.
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  What does real recovery look like?
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  Let's talk about that red flag, expecting to keep the same
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  lifestyle without any change. So I think what comes back for
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  me is I don't know why I just smiled without this thing I'm
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  about to say is not funny at all.
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  But I can think about just just waiting for life to go back to
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  normal. Like when is when are we going
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  to go back? And specifically thinking about
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  the betraying partner to the betrayed partner, it's like,
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  when is she going to stop being in pain because we need to get
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  back to being able to enjoy life or whatever it is.
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  Thoughts on that, Alana? You just nailed it.
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  Yeah, that I see. Sometimes.
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  I see both partners do it. Sometimes it's the individual
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  seeking recovery that it's like, when can we be back to when we
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  were having fun or when can we be back to when we were really
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  connected or when could we get back to when we're liking each
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  other? When can we get back to where it
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  didn't feel so hard? If any of those resonate with
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  you, like, yes. And we have to let the old
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  relationship die and we have to let go of the parts that weren't
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  serving us. And so expecting to keep the
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  same life lifestyle and then just have change, it doesn't
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  work. And so sometimes there's almost
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  a morning of letting go of who I was or letting go of the
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  relationship that we had to be able to create something new and
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  better. Grief, right?
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  Grief is a part of that process. Oh yeah.
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  Loss of that old life, the loss of the relationship and trying
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  to hold on to it, right? Well, I just say for partners,
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  sometimes it's really painful that when the individual seeking
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  recovery is saying can we go back to the way it was as AB
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  trade partner, that can feel really invalidating because it
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  can. It could be trade partner.
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  What it was you were lying and hiding to me during that time
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  what it was as I thought everything was OK.
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  So sure, I was connecting with you and having fun with you, but
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  it's because I didn't actually know the truth.
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  So you wanting to go back to that, to a betrayed partner, can
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  actually feel really threatening.
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  Really threatening. That you want to go back to old
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  patterns. And so even though like you're
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  like, no, I don't want to go back to old patterns.
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  It can feel really minimizing of the betrayed Spain.
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  Yeah, thank you for calling it out.
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  I think that's really, really important.
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  OK, so next red flag is the when there's rationalizing it like
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  risky environments. Let's talk about some of those.
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  OK, let me give you both things. Rationalizing risky environments
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  or friendships, laugh, relationships.
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  OK, so moving into recovery, if that's what it really looks
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  like, that person isn't negotiating with old risky
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  behavior. And this could be so scary for
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  the betrayed partner. I mean, a lot of you're the
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  person that's supposed to talk to this, but I've just noticed
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  that like, no, I can now that I've gone through the pain, even
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  though I'm going to put myself in the same situation, I'm not
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  going to make the same mistake, right?
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  Or that same relationship. I'm not going to change the
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  context of that relationship. Yeah, I had a bad influence, but
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  I can't leave that relationship. In fact, I'm I just think about
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  the environment not changing in those relationships and how
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  scary that is and just rationalizing the those risky
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  relationships. Sometimes I see the individual
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  seeking recovery. This can feel really threatening
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  to them. You want me to.
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  I'm using their words, by the way.
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  Betray partners. This might be triggering to hear
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  me say this, but this is what I hear.
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  They'll say things like you want me to lose everything.
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  You want me to quit my job, or you want me to leave my family,
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  or you want me to not have friends anymore.
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  And that's not at all what we're saying, but we are saying to
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  really look at with clarity and allowing yourself to see reality
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  of what is helping you be the best version of you and what
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  isn't. Look at that.
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  And sometimes there are seasons where you do need to step back
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  from certain people, places, or things while you are healing and
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  finding yourself so that you can go back into those environments
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  potentially or around people as a different person.
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  And sometimes you may find you go back as a different person.
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  Say you have a brother. You don't want to lose that
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  relationship with your brother, but every time you're with him,
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  you feel yourself pulled back into old patterns.
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  You might need to take a season and time away from that person
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  while you really heal and find yourself outside of that
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  relationship. And then you get to go back into
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  that relationship with the said brother if you choose to and re
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  establish a new relationship. Yeah.
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  Can we go back to the way it was?
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  And what are we doing? Like I think about the healing
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  journey, so much of this isn't a meshed experience between with
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  the the person did the betraying and the other people in their
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  lives. Like they don't know where they
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  end and other people begin. Like then there's no boundaries.
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  So yeah, a separation from those environments and those people is
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  very appropriate. And there's of course there's
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  going to be a lot of rash, like, no, I can't make that shift.
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  I can't make that change. So I'll do this, but not this.
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  And I want to be really clear, we are not saying you need to go
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  isolate yourself from everyone in your life, but to slow down
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  and look at and analyze which things are hurting me and which
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  things are helping me can be really wise to know where and
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  how you need to establish more of those boundaries and need to
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  establish more of your sense of self.
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  Yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to clunk my way through the salon a
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  bit once going through my mind is, yeah.
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  And we're not saying like you need to quit your job or move to
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  this, but the way in which we interact with those people, that
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  will have to change the way that we interact with the world and
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  most people around us, the boundary less places.
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  And sometimes it's just, it's so painful because if I have nice
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  Guy syndrome where I don't want to upset people, I don't want to
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  change the context of the relationship or the relationship
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  itself. Yeah.
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  Do you mind talking about that for just a minute?
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  Because I think this could be so valuable because in my
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  experience, a lot of the individuals I work with really
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  do want to be a nice guy or a nice human, right?
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  They really do desire that. But in this attempt to people
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  please, they actually then behave in really unkind ways.
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  And so like, I've watched you really tackle this area of your
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  life where you didn't feel like you could make changes with
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  coworkers or you didn't feel like you could change the
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  dynamics of how you interacted with your family.
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  Like in the beginning, that wasn't even an option for you.
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  I think if you are willing to go deeper into this, it could be
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  really valuable for other individuals who are navigating
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  this. Well, and it's funny because I
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  want to tell you like today, Ilana, sorry, because you had
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  early discoveries and I was over there defending all these people
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  around me that didn't need to be defended.
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  And you're over there going, you can see all these risky
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  situations, how things would need to change and I'm over
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  there just protecting it when really you are the person that I
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  need to be showing up for. So anyways, that's a side thing.
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  I just, I'm passionate about it as I think about it, having you
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  explain it. But I can give you so many
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  examples. Probably just two easy quick
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  ones which was the way I would interact with Co workers or
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  bosses at work. The opposite sex cause.
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  But I already had rules of engagement whether it was riding
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  alone with the opposite sex in a car on a ride along for a sales
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  call, right? And I wanted to go on as life
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  was normal but that needed to shift and I would rationalize
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  that. And then luckily I had a really
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  good therapist and you being boundaried in certain ways.
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  And then finally I came around to understanding the risk, but I
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  couldn't see it very well first. And then I could think about
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  family, thought about family and love my family.
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  I have an amazing family. But there's also a lot of me not
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  feeling like I can be authentic and be myself like a lot of
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  people pleasing old patterns that needed to shift.
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  And I wasn't going to be able to go into recovery unless I
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  shifted some of those and and remove myself from some of mesh
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  meshed dynamics. And I think I know you, this
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  isn't what you're asking about, but you had a front row seat in
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  a very painful place of watching that.
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  I I remember with your family specifically, like even when
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  someone from your family would call, we could be in a fight and
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  you're upset and hardly talking to me.
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  And then the phone would ring and is your dad and it was hi.
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  Oh, I'm so good. How are you?
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  And it could just turn. What were you doing?
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  Well, as a partner who's been betrayed, my brain went, Oh my
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  gosh, look how much he's pretending.
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  Look how fake he is. I'm not safe.
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  So my brain went straight into those places.
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  And then we had a dynamic that I see occasionally where you
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  wanted me to heal the I had so many triggers.
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  I couldn't be around your family.
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  It was so hard. I wanted you to be fake like I
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  was being fake. Yes.
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  Yeah, I wanted you to show up and put on a show like I was
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  putting on a show not even knowing I was putting on a show.
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  And not even knowing that's what you wanted from me, but there
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  was many requests of will you just figure it out and be OK
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  with my family. And in essence, that was, I need
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  you guys to be OK so I could be OK.
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  And I just, I have empathy for younger you and younger me
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  because we were in so much pain, so much and trying to do this
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  whole lifestyle shit. Changed so much at one time,
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  right? Yeah.
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  That I have empathy for us and there was a lot of growing that
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  needed to happen for both of us. So I just want to tie that in.
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  So the thought here is the red flag is rationalizing risky
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  environments or friendships. So it's wanting things to stay
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  the same, the parts where change can't happen or old slipping
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  into old behaviors and feeling like nothing can be done about
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  it. And so that's the red flag.
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  We'll move on to the next one. Is that OK?
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  Yeah, we might only get to like. Why do we only have two more red
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  flags as an examples? And we know there's more out
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  there around boundaries and lifestyle shifts, but we will
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  move through these ones then. OK, so this next one is making
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  external promises but not building internal guardrails.
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  What does this sound like? Yeah, I'm not going to act out
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  again. Not going to, not going to do
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  that. But how?
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  Like I couldn't articulate it, right?
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  Can I articulate it? What is?
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  What do I have set up in my process inside of me and to be
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  able to have any guardrails to not repeat that behavior.
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  So a lot of promise making with not really anything to back it
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  up. Well, and the guardrails are
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  like physical things in your environment could be guardrails,
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  some of your guardrails, guardrails of what healthy
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  behaviors are you adding to your life to heal.
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  Guardrails are doing therapy and doing that deeper level work.
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  Guardrails are all of the emotional work of you really,
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  and learning how to manage your feelings and find ways to cope
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  in healthier ways. So there's so many types of
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  guardrails. So that could be a whole episode
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  and even of itself of like, how do I have these guardrails?
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  But making promises without having any substance behind them
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  or sustainability will cause more damage to the relationship
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  than has already been done. Yeah, totally.
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  Last red flag in this category of boundaries and lifestyle
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  shifts is do you want to say it? Yeah, when it is more important
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  to you to hold on to old patterns and be attached to
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  those, when that's more important than the commitment to
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  safety, that's a huge red flag. So what's an example?
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  I think that's one right there where you were talking about
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  with your work. We do working lunches, me and A
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  and a Co worker who I may be attracted to or be of the
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  opposite sex. That's what we've always done,
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  right? Old pattern.
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  We've always had lunches together.
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  Well, you haven't had boundaries at work and Co workers actually
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  have been part of your addiction and you're acting out behaviors.
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  If you are committing to keeping those patterns alive more than
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  you are committing to your own safety, that's where we get the
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  red flag. Yeah, totally.
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  Versus I'm committing to safety and I'm willing to have the
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  uncomfortable conversations, I'm willing to build new patterns.
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  I'm willing to make it a little bit harder in my day today
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  because it's going to make it easier in my long term recovery.
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  And I'm thinking like I'm thinking old patterns like
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  people pleasing because that one keeps coming up.
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  I could think of, OK, it makes sense because I've crossed the
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  boundaries with people on boundary lists with the opposite
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  sex, that I would create some safety for myself by keeping
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  physical proximity. But from so no hugs, no hugs
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  unless they're family, right? But my nice guy syndrome goes up
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  and goes like I'd, my, my attachment pattern is to people,
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  please. And I can't not hug somebody
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  because that would offend them, right?
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  So that attachment that needing to people please somebody is
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  becomes more important than commitment that I make to myself
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  to be more safe or the possibility of understanding
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  what I need to do to create safety for myself.
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  Yeah, which, which pattern are we protecting?
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  Is it the new one of safety or is it the old one of people
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  placing? OK, so now we get now we thought
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  green flags. We get to end on a good note.
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  And on a good note, OK, so green flags proactively removing
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  triggers in an unsafe environment.
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  It's not waiting around, it's actively searching for the what
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  will be the demise? What will be the destruction?
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  How do I find that proactively rather than waiting to find it
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  reactively? That's what somebody will do.
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  There'll be a green flag. I see.
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  I love when people who are going on a trip, before they go on a
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  trip, they go, OK, here's my trip, I'm going to be in a new
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  environment. Here are the potential triggers.
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  Here's the potential downfalls. If I'm going to slip, this is
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  what it would look like. And then they create a safety
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  plan off of that. That is a beautiful green flag
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  that really helps embody recovery.
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  It reminds me of moving to Vegas, which was just crazy four
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  months into recovery, and then there was a lot of things that
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  you could be seeing in Vegas that would be triggering.
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  So it was proactively planning where I would drive to keep an
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  environment safer instead of going certain places and then
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  figuring out the hard way. OK.
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  I think he talked about the next one to go into the third one.
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  We'll just say it out loud, Guardrails for work, travel and
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  social settings. So we gave the red flag to it
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  that the green flag is just building those in and knowing
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  with clarity what they are like. The three circles that we do
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  that can be also helpful here. I'm glad you're here to talk
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  about this next one, this next green flag, because I feel like
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  it's such a hard one for a trade partner because it can come
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  across to just the way it is. But a green flag is creating
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  like healthy rhythms. We call it the daily dose in
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  phase one. We call it like outer circle
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  behavior, self-care. But that person makes a
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  priority. The things that keep that
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  healthy rhythm in their life keeps them emotionally sober,
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  mentally fit and awake. Sleep, nutrition, exercise,
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  whatever it might be, they are. That becomes the priority so
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  they can attend other things in their life.
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  That's a green flag. Well, in on the surface level,
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  like every B trade partner wants that.
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  They want to be with somebody who is healthy and has good
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  habits and are doing healthy things.
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  But with the betrayal, sometimes that can feel like your partner
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  was already so selfish in the hiding and acting out that now
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  they're going to spend more time just focused on them.
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  That can feel really dismissive or it can activate those
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  abandonment wounds that are very active right now.
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  And so it is really making sure because sometimes I will see
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  individuals swing so far into being healthy that they almost
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  obsessed about that healthiness and still abandoned their
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  partner. And so you can get that swing.
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  But also for the B trade partners, I just have a lot of
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  empathy around when you see them taking time for themselves, how
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  that can activate those abandonment wounds and
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  recognizing what is that healthy level and that it truly is
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  essential for them to be able to show up.
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  For you to be able to give someone to some someone else,
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  you have to be able to fill your own cup too.
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  Yeah. And I think identifying that as
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  a green flag of why am I, why do I have a healthy rhythm?
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  Is it because I'm avoiding something or is it because I'm
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  proactively chasing something that creates consistency for my
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  body and for my mind and for my emotional space compared to I'm
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  doing it so I avoid intimacy or whatever it might be?
• 18:50
  Yeah, I'm a great clarifier. We're going to take a quick
• 18:53
  break for a moment. I want to let you know of some
• 18:55
  things that we have coming up at Choose Recovery Services.
• 18:59
  If you've been through betrayal, you know it's more than
• 19:02
  heartbreak. It can shake your sense of
• 19:05
  safety, trust, and even your connection to yourself.
• 19:09
  That's why we created The Courage to Thrive Intensive, a
• 19:12
  four day betrayal trauma intensive happening October 14th
• 19:16
  through the 17th and Spanish Fork, UT.
• 19:19
  In this safe and supportive space, you'll learn how betrayal
• 19:22
  impacts your body, discover ways to create safety within, gain
• 19:27
  tools to manage triggers, and set healthy boundaries.
• 19:31
  Through experiential activities, somatic interventions, and
• 19:34
  practical tools, you'll leave with hope, clarity, and the
• 19:37
  courage to stepforwardinyourhealinglearnmore@chooserecoveryservices.com/intensives
• 19:44
  or click the link in the show notes.
• 19:48
  Let's get back to our episode. So check this one out.
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  Green flags. You go from looking at the word
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  boundaries and it shifts from boundaries, those rules, those
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  rigid rules to now it's like a commitment.
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  It's like it protects me. It's my values based.
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  It's as I do it and there's a intent behind it rather than
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  being a rule or a boundary that I that keeps me restricted.
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  Now it provides freedom. And there you can see that shift
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  and that is often a shift that it does start off it's needed
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  and then it's there's like an acquired taste to it.
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  This is actually what gives me freedom.
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  This might go too off topic so you can reroute me, but it makes
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  me think about the road to recovery that you and Steven
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  recently did and how boundaries got brought up and there was the
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  word thrown out of consequences and how people really got
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  distracted with that word. And when we first talk about
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  boundaries, sometimes we do focus on this.
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  Here's my boundary, here's a consequence.
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  And it becomes very rules. And I'll just say when I first
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  tried to do boundaries and I've said this on my podcast many
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  times, but when I. Like this story now?
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  When I burst started my boundaries, my therapist was
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  like, oh, honey, these aren't boundaries.
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  He didn't call me honey. That was the energy.
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  These aren't boundaries because that was basically all these
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  rules. If you do this, then here's your
• 21:10
  punishment. If you do this, here's your
• 21:11
  punishment. And I had to shift my boundaries
• 21:15
  into what are my values? And for me, how do I protect my
• 21:20
  own values? And these are mine.
• 21:23
  Whether I'm married to Bob, Joe, Frank or Luke, it doesn't
• 21:25
  matter. These are my values that I'm
• 21:27
  going to protect. And they're not rules.
• 21:31
  They're not rules that I'm giving my partner or my spouse.
• 21:35
  And so I had to shift. And then for you, you had to
• 21:39
  shift and figure out your own values and how you wanted to
• 21:43
  protect those. Absolutely, absolutely.
• 21:47
  OK, So that is the piece on that third category of boundaries and
• 21:51
  lifestyle changes. Some green flags and red flags
• 21:53
  to be aware of. Now we're going to switch gears
• 21:56
  and we're going to talk about empathy and attunement.
• 21:58
  OK, so let's go to the red flag stuff first.
• 22:01
  OK, So what to notice red flags with empathy in the tomb?
• 22:05
  It is responding, but it's with what about me?
• 22:10
  So it's really about empathy is given, but it's just that like
• 22:15
  hanging on and sharing. Like you got to acknowledge me.
• 22:18
  You got to see me in this experience.
• 22:20
  Yeah. Any thoughts on the whole?
• 22:22
  Yeah, that is one of the biggest red flags I see with where
• 22:27
  somebody is at in their healing work when they're going, OK,
• 22:30
  well, if you get boundaries, then I get boundaries.
• 22:33
  Or, well, I'll do that only if you're doing this.
• 22:36
  Well, I'll only do my work if you do your work.
• 22:38
  And there's this constant comparison in this constant
• 22:42
  trying to equalize the playing field in essence, like when I
• 22:47
  hear that, that to me as a professional is a huge red flag
• 22:51
  of where they're at relationally and in their own individual
• 22:54
  work. This one for me, Alana, feels, I
• 22:57
  like that. It feels like it's just the
• 22:59
  focus on intent versus impact. If there's a person that's
• 23:02
  really focused on the intent, like intent just had to be a
• 23:05
  part of the conversation if it's at the very end.
• 23:07
  But let me tell you what I'm actually mended meant to do, not
• 23:10
  what I actually what I actually hurt you.
• 23:12
  That's what this feels like to me.
• 23:14
  But what about me? I know the next one red flags.
• 23:20
  This is the dismissing or the minimizing a partner's pain.
• 23:25
  Alana, why don't you speak first of this one, if you wouldn't
• 23:26
  mind? That can sound like, are we
• 23:30
  always going to be here? When are you going to forgive
• 23:33
  me? When are we going to hell?
• 23:35
  And sometimes it can be said really cruelly, like really, are
• 23:39
  we still going to, are we going to do this again?
• 23:42
  Sometimes it can sound like that.
• 23:44
  Other times it can be said really gently.
• 23:46
  But like, are you going to forgive me already?
• 23:50
  I really just want to move forward.
• 23:53
  Can you just please move on? Can we not focus on the past,
• 23:58
  right? It can be said softly, but the
• 24:00
  message is still the same. You should be through your pain
• 24:03
  by now. Let's let's move forward.
• 24:05
  Let's bury this. Let's bury your pain.
• 24:08
  Instead of having empathy and addressing the open wound, it's
• 24:12
  kind of, let's cover that up and let's just, let's just not have
• 24:15
  your wound be there. Let's pretend that that's not
• 24:17
  there. It does not work.
• 24:19
  It actually prolongs the partners pain.
• 24:23
  One thing along that I think about a lot lately is we do so
• 24:26
  much into recovery services, psychoeducational and betrayal
• 24:29
  trauma, and what is it and what is it about?
• 24:32
  Sometimes it scares me. I don't know if scared is the
• 24:35
  right word, but it's not dismissing that it's a trauma
• 24:39
  response, that it's that's the pain.
• 24:42
  Not that it's just a trauma response, but it's that just not
• 24:46
  an acknowledgement of real valid pain.
• 24:50
  Does that make sense, Alana? Yeah, no, it does.
• 24:54
  And it is really valid pain. There's not even words really to
• 24:59
  describe the pain. But what I can say is I have
• 25:04
  heard multiple individuals say I wouldn't wish this on my worst
• 25:08
  enemy. I didn't know physically I could
• 25:12
  hurt so bad when I was dealing with something emotionally.
• 25:16
  I've heard people say I feel like I'm dying.
• 25:19
  I've heard people say things like, I don't know how to think,
• 25:24
  like you can't think straight. I can't think, I can't function.
• 25:28
  It's physically painful, it's emotionally painful.
• 25:31
  It's heart wrenching. And again, like these words
• 25:35
  don't even can't. There's not words that can grasp
• 25:39
  the depth of what a partner truly experiences going through
• 25:43
  this. Yeah.
• 25:45
  So when that's dismissed, it can cause a lot of harm today,
• 25:52
  active harm today that again hinders their healing and
• 25:59
  hinders their relationships healing.
• 26:01
  I think that's why I appreciate it so much.
• 26:02
  The work that you guys do at apps at I know you're you're
• 26:06
  part of that is the just education on the what is
• 26:10
  actually going on, not being able to understand it, but more
• 26:15
  of what is actually happening. Well, yeah, because I even see
• 26:18
  therapists where their tendency is to try to move the partner
• 26:22
  forward. And the more that they try to
• 26:25
  push a partner forward, the more that they actually don't move
• 26:31
  forward. So being able to create the
• 26:33
  safety and environment so a partner can heal and move
• 26:36
  forward is the quickest way to recovery and healing.
• 26:40
  Around the empathy and a two-month part, I don't think we
• 26:42
  have to spend a lot of time on this one because we've talked a
• 26:44
  decent amount about it. No, actually we haven't.
• 26:46
  I'm missing the first word from my notes, blaming the partner
• 26:49
  for being too sensitive or not moving on.
• 26:52
  So this is like a, this is like a, we did actually technically
• 26:57
  talk about it, but it's a misdirection miss.
• 27:01
  It's redirecting it to the partner being their fault.
• 27:03
  So not attending to actually what the change needs to be.
• 27:07
  Yeah, like I think of Darbo. Darbo deny what the partner
• 27:12
  said, didn't deny. Attack.
• 27:17
  Attack. Is like you're too sensitive,
• 27:19
  you're not moving forward. V is or our reverse victim and
• 27:25
  offender. So by the end of the
• 27:26
  conversation, the partner who is hurt and betrayed is now
• 27:30
  defending or trying to say they're not too sensitive and
• 27:34
  try to get their pain seen, and then oftentimes ends up
• 27:37
  apologizing themselves. Yeah, you've shifted it off of
• 27:41
  the person who has harmed to now putting the blame on the person
• 27:44
  who has been injured. Yeah.
• 27:46
  The last red flag that will touch on is the there's a
• 27:49
  revealing of the defensive defensiveness and the self
• 27:52
  protection over relational safety.
• 27:55
  So it becomes more about taking care of yourself than ultimately
• 28:00
  stopping and thinking about the partner and the relationship
• 28:03
  itself. Yeah.
• 28:04
  And this, I think it's just where our individual work is so
• 28:07
  essential because you cannot talk yourself or anyone else out
• 28:13
  of their protectors. I don't care how good of a
• 28:15
  therapist you are, like I can't talk anyone out of their
• 28:18
  protectors. We can heal protectors and then
• 28:21
  the protectors can put their weapons down and put their walls
• 28:24
  down, but you cannot talk people out of their protectors.
• 28:27
  So if you are noticing a lot of defensiveness and self
• 28:31
  protection in you, that is a call to do the individual work
• 28:34
  to heal those parts. Yeah, yeah.
• 28:37
  Alana, you want to touch on the green flags with this?
• 28:40
  Yes, listening without defensiveness and that can be a
• 28:46
  skill that you learn and practice.
• 28:49
  This is why I really like groups because groups as you can have a
• 28:53
  place practices where your defenses aren't as high and you
• 28:57
  can Start learning the skill and you can practice them in places
• 29:02
  so that you can then use that skill and practice it later with
• 29:06
  your spouse or partner. And then the next one is, I
• 29:10
  mean, this one's kind of obvious.
• 29:11
  It's the opposite of the red flag is learning how to validate
• 29:15
  your partner's pain even when it's uncomfortable.
• 29:20
  So validating their pain does activate your own shame.
• 29:25
  It does activate the remorse or guilt or hard feelings you have
• 29:29
  about even making those choices, but it's allowing yourself to
• 29:33
  sit in that discomfort and you're putting their pain and
• 29:38
  seeing them above your own uncomfortability.
• 29:42
  And just like can we just we just simplify it and make it
• 29:44
  call it what it is? When we validate our partners
• 29:46
  pain, we acknowledge that our past is impacting them today in
• 29:50
  this moment. I don't do that.
• 29:53
  I've I forgot, like I've lost connection with what actually
• 29:58
  got us here. And by the way, this for me
• 30:02
  really only comes to my ability to my, my ability to be able to
• 30:07
  be curious about my partner's experience.
• 30:09
  Because guess what? I'm going through life.
• 30:10
  I'm 100 miles an hour and then I know stop, turn and look in my
• 30:14
  partner's in pain. That means I again going back to
• 30:18
  the relational safety over Mike's defensiveness.
• 30:22
  Then I go, OK, wait, hold on, she's in pain now.
• 30:26
  Curious curiosity is where I'm going because if I can do
• 30:29
  curiosity right now, I'm going to be a problem for me to
• 30:32
  validate my partner's pain. Well, yeah, and that curiosity
• 30:35
  shows the level of attunement. I'm attuned and I like the word
• 30:40
  attunement because I think of an old radio, the ones where you
• 30:43
  had to twist the dial to get the station that you want in.
• 30:48
  Like I remember lived in Portland, OR and I loved called
• 30:51
  Z100 at the time and it was 100.3 and on the radio if you
• 30:57
  went to 100.50, I thought it was so cool if you went to 100.5 you
• 31:05
  couldn't get the station, 100.1, you couldn't get the station,
• 31:08
  you had to have 100.3 and that's where you got it.
• 31:12
  When you're tuned to your partner, you literally are
• 31:15
  tuning your dial to see them, hear them, feel their energy.
• 31:21
  And when you're going 100 miles an hour, you can't be attuned to
• 31:23
  them. And so it is that slowing down,
• 31:26
  asking questions, turning your dial to tune into them.
• 31:31
  Can I complicate the analogy just for fun and because I like
• 31:35
  it a lot? Here's what I meant here.
• 31:37
  What Here's what I hear men say. The betraying partners, the
• 31:41
  betraying partners say often he's like, it's like she moved
• 31:43
  the goal posts. She moved the goal and I'm like,
• 31:47
  and for me, I like there's a level of there's a level of I
• 31:50
  get it, there's a level of understanding the struggle of
• 31:52
  this, but then I'm like not moving the goal.
• 31:56
  You just have to do, you just have to get attuned to her.
• 31:59
  You just have to actually do the work of figuring out where she's
• 32:02
  at, like you said, adjusting the knob and and just understanding
• 32:07
  what her experience is. And that's the, you know,
• 32:10
  welcome to relationships, right? Welcome to Seeking to
• 32:13
  Understand. Well, and part of it too is as a
• 32:16
  betrayed partner, what you need in the beginning.
• 32:20
  Sometimes it's just so survival mode that you don't really know
• 32:24
  what you need. And then as you really start to
• 32:27
  do your work, you start to recognize what your own values
• 32:30
  are and what your needs are, and you start recognizing what
• 32:34
  you're worth is. And so it can shift because that
• 32:38
  the betrayed partner is healing and learning and growing.
• 32:41
  So what they're asking and what they're requiring absolutely
• 32:44
  could shift because they are growing and healing and
• 32:47
  changing. And so are you going to allow
• 32:50
  your partner that opportunity, your partner who has been hurt,
• 32:53
  are you going to allow them room to grow and heal?
• 32:56
  And part of that growing and healing may mean that what
• 32:59
  they're looking for from you does shift and change.
• 33:01
  And that's good because it means that they're healing.
• 33:04
  I'm just. Going to, I'm just going to
• 33:07
  play. I'm going to play like, I don't
• 33:08
  know what the heck you're talking about, right?
• 33:09
  Now, it might not feel good, it might not feel good, but it
• 33:12
  means that they're healing and it means that your relationship
• 33:16
  has the opportunity to level up if you so choose.
• 33:19
  Yeah. I'm just thinking about the
• 33:21
  partner though, the training partners as she I feel like
• 33:24
  she's changing. They are changing what they
• 33:27
  want. And I hear you saying stomp bad,
• 33:31
  and that's not bad because there is an evolution to recovery.
• 33:34
  It's human. Is what we're looking for the
• 33:36
  getting curious, the why is that?
• 33:38
  What is different? Or is it even different?
• 33:40
  Or am I just hearing it different?
• 33:42
  Go with the curious mindset. The last one moving from
• 33:46
  intellectual or cognitive empathy into heartfelt
• 33:53
  connection. That's easy.
• 33:56
  I wish it was. I really wish this was.
• 34:00
  I wish because a lot of times partners need and want empathy
• 34:06
  right away. But in my experience, more often
• 34:10
  than not when I'm working with an individual who's seeking
• 34:13
  recovery, they don't have empathy for themselves.
• 34:17
  They never have. And I'm saying like true
• 34:20
  empathy, right? Not giving yourself free passes,
• 34:23
  but actually love themselves and care about themselves and can
• 34:28
  see themselves and so. Can I demonstrate?
• 34:34
  Yeah. OK, Alana, I so you're mad
• 34:38
  because I didn't come home from work like I said I would is like
• 34:42
  intellectual empathy. So that that makes you that's
• 34:46
  frustrating, right? Versus Alana, what is it like
• 34:50
  for me to again, not show up from work when you thought I
• 34:55
  would not make a phone call? OK, I'm going to speak out of
• 34:58
  both sides of my name. OK.
• 35:01
  Like on one hand, that second when you said it, I was like,
• 35:04
  oh, yeah, OK, that actually was better.
• 35:06
  I noticed that, right. But to actually have this deeper
• 35:12
  level of empathy, this attunement, it, a lot of it is
• 35:17
  energetic. And so this can be really
• 35:20
  abstract for people because you can say the exact right words.
• 35:25
  Like you give that example, right?
• 35:27
  One set of words sounded better than the other.
• 35:29
  It did, but if you say that extra set of words because you
• 35:33
  heard it on the podcast, if your nervous system isn't believing
• 35:39
  it and it's not embraced in truth, and you aren't being open
• 35:44
  and vulnerable and connecting with me, my nervous system is
• 35:49
  going to feel that misalignment. When you are actually embodying
• 35:54
  empathy, it can be felt at a heartfelt level.
• 35:58
  It can be felt in my nervous system.
• 36:00
  So even if you said the wrong words and said it clunky, but
• 36:05
  you were emotionally attuning, I would feel that.
• 36:10
  And so sometimes we listen to podcasts and we get so caught up
• 36:13
  and saying and doing the right things or saying the right
• 36:17
  words. But really, when we move from
• 36:19
  intellectual empathy into this embodied empathy, into this
• 36:24
  greater level of attunement, it is so heartfelt that you don't
• 36:29
  even have to do it right or do it perfectly because your
• 36:33
  partner feels it. You just.
• 36:35
  Picture, picture like intellectual empathy.
• 36:38
  You like have your sword and your shield right here and
• 36:40
  you're talking to somebody and a picture of heartfelt empathy of
• 36:44
  I'm going to set it down and I'm going to do the thing where I
• 36:47
  leave myself most vulnerable to being really seen.
• 36:52
  And and I don't know how this is going to go.
• 36:55
  I don't know what that I don't know if I if I and I think
• 36:59
  that's the energy that is felt by a partner is that they're
• 37:03
  vulnerable. They're there.
• 37:04
  Hell, they don't have to acknowledge that in that moment.
• 37:07
  I'm not saying that's going to be their response.
• 37:08
  Hey, I see you that vulnerable. What were you going to say,
• 37:11
  Lola? No, I that like, yes, that level
• 37:14
  of vulnerability and it's a letting go of control.
• 37:19
  And it's interesting because the way I see humans hold on to
• 37:25
  control because control feels safe and it doesn't mean you're
• 37:29
  controlling the other person per SE, but you're trying to hold on
• 37:32
  control in your life. So when I'm trying to manage the
• 37:35
  outcomes of the conversation, or I'm trying to manage my
• 37:38
  partner's feelings, or I'm trying to manage the experience
• 37:41
  and how it will turn out, I'm gripping onto control.
• 37:46
  But when I let go of the outcome and I step into vulnerability, I
• 37:50
  am letting go of control and I'm bringing my walls down.
• 37:54
  And that actually allows me and my partner to see each other.
• 37:57
  All that. There's a beauty in there and
• 38:00
  it's scary. So scary, so scary.
• 38:02
  It kind of reminds me of the one where it's you're right, it's an
• 38:05
  energy. One of the connecting
• 38:07
  experiences that I've heard people say is when the betraying
• 38:12
  partner says, I can see you and I don't even know what to say
• 38:19
  right now. This we're just that sense of
• 38:22
  this is important. I want to connect with you and
• 38:24
  I'm in a loss because if there's a feeling of energy, of that
• 38:28
  sincerity that exists, that heartfelt connection, notice
• 38:31
  that there's no words that are solving a problem, right?
• 38:34
  I don't know. I remember one time you saying
• 38:37
  to me, and again, it wasn't the words, it was the energy at
• 38:41
  which you said it. But you sat there for a minute
• 38:46
  almost like in awe and you went, I don't think I'm ever going to
• 38:51
  actually grasp how badly this has hurt you.
• 38:56
  Like I thought that I could, but I don't think I actually will
• 39:00
  ever truly know where feel how bad this hurt you and energy at
• 39:04
  which you had around that was like this equal oh shit and deep
• 39:10
  remorse and like awe of like how big it was.
• 39:15
  And in that moment, I felt very seen in my pain.
• 39:20
  And it made me sad that you would never really understand it
• 39:23
  to the depth I felt it, but you understanding how big it was.
• 39:28
  And because of how big it was, you couldn't.
• 39:32
  And all of the energy you had around that was actually really
• 39:35
  healing. But you couldn't fake that.
• 39:38
  If you tried to say that and just say the words and it wasn't
• 39:41
  that embodied experience, I would have felt that from a mile
• 39:44
  away and I would have just shot you, shot that down.
• 39:48
  What is the word as escaping me? Performative empathy,
• 39:51
  intellectual intimacy and performative empathy, same
• 39:54
  thing. Not necessarily because ink
• 39:58
  sometimes you can have intellectual empathy as you're
• 40:01
  learning how to embody that's. True.
• 40:03
  Very, very true. Very true.
• 40:05
  Where performative as you're putting on a show, yeah, you're
• 40:08
  just trying to do it to again, manage the outcome and get the
• 40:11
  result you want. Yeah, yeah.
• 40:15
  OK. Thanks.
• 40:16
  Thanks for saying that. Yeah, I like that.
• 40:19
  And that's where like the that's where the somatic work for the
• 40:22
  men that I work with matters so much because they're just like,
• 40:25
  why can't I get the scrap script, right?
• 40:28
  Well, you can't. It's because you have to
• 40:30
  actually get in tune with your body and notice how your body is
• 40:33
  responding. And there's going to be there's
• 40:36
  going to be energy that comes from that experience once you're
• 40:39
  in tune with yourself rather than intellectualizing anything.
• 40:42
  Everything OK? Hey guys.
• 40:46
  So that is Part 2 of this podcast series on what real
• 40:51
  recovery looks like after some type of betrayal.
• 40:53
  So next time we're going to jump into because this is what we've
• 40:57
  covered. If you want to go back and
• 40:58
  listen, we last time we covered honesty and transparency, red
• 41:01
  and green flags. Then we went through sobriety
• 41:04
  and accountability, red and clay green flags.
• 41:06
  Next time we will come to authenticity and then consistent
• 41:12
  connection. We might finish it out with
• 41:14
  growth orientation being the last one.
• 41:17
  So we'll see how it goes. There's a good chance next time
• 41:21
  we might only get through authenticity.
• 41:23
  I know. And I just say that because
• 41:25
  authenticity is that important and a lot of people don't
• 41:28
  actually know how to access it. So that'll be a good
• 41:31
  conversation. And these red flags are going to
• 41:34
  be entered. Fun to talk about.
• 41:36
  OK, It was good to spend time with you all.
• 41:38
  Take care and we'll talk to you soon.
• 41:42
  Hey, thanks for joining us today.
• 41:44
  If this is something that you connected with, I'd love to meet
• 41:47
  with you more and talk about it. So what you can do is go to
• 41:49
  chooserecoveryservices.com or check the show notes.
• 41:53
  And there what we can do is set up a quick conversation meet.
• 41:56
  Thanks so much for listening to Beyond the Facade where we
• 41:58
  unmask the authentic cell.