Latest / Associations NOW Presents / Authentic Leadership in Action: Women’s Voices, Mentorship, and Community Building

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Authentic Leadership in Action: Women’s Voices, Mentorship, and Community Building · Associations NOW Presents

0:00
KiKi L'Italien: Welcome to the Associations NOW Presents
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podcast, I'm your guest host, KiKi L'Italien, and if you're
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thinking, "Hey, I know that name or I know that voice," you're
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right. It's because you usually hear me over at Association
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Chat. But today, I'm excited to be hosting this special episode
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of Associations NOW Presents, because we're continuing this
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powerful conversation that really started at what's called
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ASAE's The Exchange. And this is a women's leadership event that
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is really special, and our focus today to continue on this
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discussion is authentic leadership. We're talking about
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authentic leadership, the power of women's voices, and how we
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can build a supportive community in the association space. So
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joining me are two inspiring, award winning leaders, Lori
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Anderson, President and CEO of the International Sign
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Association, and Debra BenAvram, CEO of Association for the
1:00
Advancement of Blood and Biotherapies. So I want to just
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do this, and start out at the very start, to just say
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congratulations, because, as I understand it, even though
1:11
you've both won awards before, you have just recently been
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recognized, Lori as 2025 Trade Association Executive of the
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Year, and Debra, you were recognized as a 2025
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Professional Society Association Executive of the Year.
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Congratulations to both of you.
1:33
Thank you so much
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Yes, it's really amazing to be here. And I have to say, I have
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followed your work for many years and watched you in this
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space, recognized leaders. And so what I thought we could do
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today is just start off by talking about your personal
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journeys into leadership, because I know that each path is
1:53
unique. Definitely in the association industry, there can
1:57
be many different ways that we get to where we are, but I'm
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sure that there are shared experiences that have shaped
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both of you. So I thought what we would do is maybe start with
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what inspired you to step into these leadership roles. So were
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there pivotal moments or mentors who helped guide you along the
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way? So Debra, I'm starting with you. What about it? What made
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you decide to step into this leadership role in the first place?
2:25
Debra BenAvram: Thanks you so much, KiKi. I would love to tell
2:29
you that I had this grand plan from the age of five to become a
2:33
leader and to do it by this age and set all those goals. That's
2:38
really never been my style. So when I was thinking about what
2:43
sort of led me to this moment, I think what I might have been was
2:47
not savvy enough to realize that I wasn't supposed to ask
2:52
questions or ask permission, and just always threw myself into
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opportunities. My last organization, when there was a
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clear need for a new strategic plan or a new area that we
3:05
needed staff leadership in, I raised my hand and but I did
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that by doing it, and I think that, for better or worse, led
3:13
me to have lots of different experiences that I didn't know
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maybe I wasn't supposed to have or be asking for. And when the
3:21
CEO role opened up at that organization, I had this
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out-of-body moment where the board was telling me that the
3:30
position was now open, and I said, "I'm right here. Why don't
3:34
you put me in that role?" And that was not particularly
3:37
characteristic of me, but it is what ended up happening. I
3:41
applied for the role and took it, and what inspired me was
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that I saw I could be the change. I saw what change could
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be. I saw what possibilities were. And I love the power of
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associations and bringing people together. And I think we do that
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with our staff, and we do that with our volunteers and our
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members. I just love that. It was really inspired. And I
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wanted the opportunity to do more, to keep throwing my hat in
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and keep bringing that forward and growing the business and
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growing the value that we were delivering to our members. And I
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loved what I did there, and I got to, now, get to do that at a
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different organization, in terms of what maybe mentors or who
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inspire me. A pivotal moment for me in terms of putting myself
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around the right colleagues was at an ASAE Annual Meeting
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shortly after I became CEO. So this is going back long time and
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Arlene Pietranton and the late John Graham led a round table
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for young CEOs—because I used to be a young CEO—and there were
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not so many of us at that time, but we sat around this table,
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and I got to see not only meet colleagues, some of whom today
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are among my very best friends, both within the association,
5:00
community and personally. But I got to see what it looked like
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to be a giving colleague and to be around colleagues like Arlene
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and John, who were just freely sharing their experiences that
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moment in time which I can see in my head as I'm telling you
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this story that led me to recognize I needed to get into
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peer groups because I was reinventing wheels, and I was
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alone. No matter what level of leader you are, you're alone in
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some way, shape or form. And very quickly, I got myself into
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a few different peer groups and tried them out. And some fit,
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some didn't. And I learned how to build a community, a kitchen
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cabinet of people that I could learn from that were similar to
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me, that were different from me, that had more experience or less
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experience than me. And that gift, really, that got from what
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I learned from ASAE colleagues—whether I did that
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within the framework of ASAE or not—that is what I really credit
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the rest of my career journey to this day is being in this
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community and building peer networks within it that I can
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learn from with, be vulnerable with and learn from each other's
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experiences.
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KiKi L'Italien: When you are talking about that, it resonates
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so much, because I think, what if we didn't have some of these
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important connections that we had made? And it really is, you
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can get so much further when you have those relationships in
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place, and you can ask the questions and get the
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information that you need, or make the connections that you
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need to in order to advance. How about you, Lori? What about for
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you? What was your story?
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Lori Anderson: That's a has some similarities to Debra, when my
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very first career was a teacher. And I knew I didn't want to do
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that forever. And I quit without any plan, and that was
6:56
terrifying. So I look back at the things that have helped me
6:59
grow. It's that I do things that are scary, but I ask for help,
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and asking for help is critical. I found a career coach because I
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literally had no idea what I wanted to do, and I remember the
7:16
restaurant we were in. I remember the table we were in,
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and he asked me a pivotal question that changed my life.
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And the question was, "What gets you hot? What gets you mad? What
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gets you boiling?" And at the time, it had to do with
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politics, whoever was in office at the time. And he said, "Why
7:35
don't you do something there?" And I went, "I can't do that.
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I'm a former music teacher." And he goes, "Why not?" And it got
7:42
me thinking, why not. And it took me nine months to convince
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a member of Congress to hire a former music teacher. And it was
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scary. Those nine months I didn't have a job, and all of a
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sudden I was in a position of doing something that I was just
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really passionate about, and people would be coming and
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lobbying me. And I thought maybe I could do that. So then I
8:08
started looking at getting a lobbying job, and I happened to
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land in an association where the Vice President of Government
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Relations was also involved in music. So there was this music
8:20
connection, I think he sang for the Kennedy Center Choir or
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something like that. And his wife was a music teacher, so we
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had that weird connection right away. And he was such a mentor,
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and he threw me into like Deb, gave me challenges, and just saw
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what was in me, that I wasn't just a former music teacher,
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right? I had a lot to offer, and he kept challenging me and
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giving me assignments that I thought I could never do, but he
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also encouraged me to join, and in this particular association,
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there was no other member of ASAE, and it was a large
9:00
Association, and I joined ASAE, I joined Women in Government
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Relations. I joined WGR Toastmasters. I honed my
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speaking abilities, and those connections got me where I am.
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In fact, the recruiter who called me for my current
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position knew I was looking through WGR Toastmasters, and
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she recommended to the recruiter to call me. It's all about
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connections. It's all about finding people. And when I
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started at ISA, I needed new connections. I wasn't really in
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government affairs anymore. I was in a leadership role. I
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joined CEO groups. Debra and I met in a CEO group, and then we
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ended up on the as a board together at the same time. And
9:53
so our leadership paths followed. That the importance of
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reaching out and connecting to other folks. And even now,
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there's not a question I get. What do I do with this
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particular problem? You have a group of people, groups of
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people who can help answer the question, and that's the beauty
10:15
of associations, because everyone's willing to help, and
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the people who are willing to help. They really become your
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network, your support group, when things get really tough or
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when things are going great.
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KiKi L'Italien: Okay, first of all, I know so much more about
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you now. This is fascinating, and I have follow up questions
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for when we meet up at something down the road, what type of
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music? What got you involved? But we're not going there today,
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I noticed some themes in both of your responses so far,
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definitely about the community and the importance of
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connections, but then also, it's those connections that were
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helping you overcome challenges. And so I wanted to ask this
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question about when you look back and you think about your
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leadership style and what you've learned over the years, what
11:03
specific challenges or opportunities have influenced
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your leadership style within the association world.
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Debra BenAvram: For me, I feel that every experience, every
11:16
challenge that we each face as leaders, our leadership
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journeys, our philosophies, our understanding of ourselves and
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how to really amplify our strengths and own where we need
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to say it's not our bailiwick. To me, I think that I'm always
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doing that. So I could give you an example like COVID or a
11:38
turnaround, which I've done several of. But ultimately, I
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think it's not always the big it feels in leadership, like it's
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these big, pivotal moments, but even how we respond in those
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big, pivotal moments is because of all of the small moments
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along the way that are how we build our philosophy. So my
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philosophies around silo lists, ideally organizations and staff
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empowerment and volunteer empowerment and transformation
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of culture that came from not one experience. It came from so
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many different things. Yeah,
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KiKi L'Italien: I think that those challenges, they're what
12:22
makes us, hopefully, stronger when we make it through it, when
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we get on the other side of it. But I think that it's not hard
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to say that. I'd say over the past five years, being an
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association leader has maybe had more than its fair share of
12:38
challenges compared to just taking a look around the world
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and what's happening maybe a little bit more challenging.
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It's definitely, I think, for both of you to have been going
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through this leadership journey together, to be learning
12:51
alongside each other, and then also to be winning these awards
12:55
together. It's amazing that there are these sort of
12:58
milestone moments that you've shared in leadership along the
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way. Lori, have you thought of a challenge that maybe, I don't
13:05
know, helped you hone your leadership style or figure out
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who you are as a leader today?
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Lori Anderson: That is continually evolving, right?
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It's not stagnant. I remember hearing things and those may be
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the start of a switch, right? You just hear even somebody ask
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you one question, like the career counselor back when I was
13:25
very young, "What gets you mad?" The question that changed my
13:29
life. The things I hear a top executive of the company,
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Freeman, I was at an event, and she asked to write down on a
13:38
piece of paper to describe my organization's culture, and I
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was "oh my gosh. I don't know if I can." I know what I think it
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is, but I don't know what my team is that led a whole multi
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year journey into creating a culture statement that one
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little question. When I first started at ISA, there was a
13:57
hesitancy of the board. The governance was pretty broken,
14:01
and the board was not willing at the time to learn how to be a
14:06
better board. There was one chair who I suggested, how about
14:11
we go to a CEO symposium and just see if we can learn how to
14:14
be better? And we sat in that room, and the light bulbs went
14:18
off for him, that there is a better way to function as an
14:21
organization, and that opened the window just a little. And I
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think about the big transformations I've done is
14:30
when the window opens a little and you say that breeze is
14:35
coming through, I want to bring on the wind, right? And you take
14:40
little steps, and it results in that big transformation. I've
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heard other people say you should never be in an
14:47
organization more than five years because you stagnate. At
14:51
first, I listened to that and thought I was doing something
14:54
wrong, and then I realized I need to listen to myself if I'm
14:57
continually challenged. You. If I'm continually finding new
15:02
growth, and I love who I work with, and I enjoy their company
15:07
every day, and I appreciate and have the support of my board,
15:13
Why limit myself to five years? It's been 20 years with the
15:16
organization, and I'm never bored, and I always have
15:20
challenges, and so I keep looking for these little
15:22
windows. Now, if the window is constantly shut, then maybe I
15:27
should look somewhere else, or that someone should look
15:29
somewhere else. But if you always have that opportunity for
15:32
a new breeze to come through and to ride on that breeze a little
15:37
bit, then go for it.
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KiKi L'Italien: That's really fascinating. I'm thinking about
15:43
how we're hearing you should be listening to others. You should
15:46
be talking with others and learning from others, but maybe
15:50
also knowing when you shouldn't listen to others and to listen
15:54
to yourself too, not to forget that part. So one of the
15:58
questions I wanted to ask you both had to do more about
16:02
mentorship, and especially for young professionals, people who
16:05
are maybe early in their careers, who are trying to
16:08
figure out, yeah, this mentor, how do I find the right people?
16:13
How do I find my group, my kitchen cabinet, and when they
16:18
begin to seek out building that sort of that connection and that
16:23
network. How would you advise them to go about fostering
16:28
meaningful connections that can truly help them? Because I think
16:32
at least in my situation, I would say in my experience, I've
16:36
had to learn right because not everyone should be a part of
16:39
that group, but you shouldn't listen to all of the voices. So
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Debra, I know you had shared a little bit earlier about how you
16:46
found these different groups. So do you have any thoughts on
16:49
this?
16:50
Debra BenAvram: Yeah, I have definitely have thoughts around
16:52
how to approach finding mentors. To me, the first place it starts
16:58
with is introspection. What are you looking for yourself? So
17:02
you're looking for an advisor who can tell you what to do when
17:06
you don't know how. I'm not sure that always exists, but that
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might be more of a coach, an executive coach. Are you looking
17:13
for someone to prop you up and help you develop? Are you
17:18
looking for shared experiences, which is different from advice,
17:22
but we can glean ideas which is really important. And you may be
17:27
looking for all of those things, but your journey around them is
17:31
really different. And Lori said, with her example, everyone's
17:34
looking for your career journey, your mentorship path. It's
17:38
yours, just because people talk all the time about aspiring CEOs
17:43
and get a mentor to help you be CEO Well, you know, this job is
17:46
for some people, not for everyone. You need to think
17:49
about what you want to do and what are the things you need to
17:52
build in your toolkit. And then, okay, so then who are the right
17:56
types of people to be around to do that? And by the way, that's
18:00
multi-directional. You have people reporting to you or
18:03
within your organization who are different levels, who are
18:06
amazing mentors, who you learn from all the time. You don't
18:10
have to call someone and say, will you be my mentor? And let's
18:14
match on an app here. There's lots of ways to engage and be
18:18
mentor. I think that when we think about what that looks
18:24
like, what we want from each group, each person, I would
18:29
encourage emerging leaders to then prioritize, right? So for
18:34
me, I really liked peer groups because I got a lot out of that.
18:38
And I tell my team all the time, you have all the power put a
18:41
note on ASAE Collaborate, and you will have more people than
18:46
you know what to do with for a new peer group. But that is
18:49
doable. Talk to people and ask them to find one or two. But the
18:53
more clarity you have around what you're looking to learn,
18:59
what experiences you're trying to be around, the types of
19:03
leaders you want to be around that, frankly, are really
19:07
different from you. When I call Lori with a problem, which I
19:10
certainly do, I do not want her to tell me that I'm brilliant. I
19:14
want her to give me some actual feedback. And I need that from
19:19
my mentor. If that's what you want from your mentor? Get
19:22
clarity if you call someone to be a one on one mentor for you,
19:26
you meet someone a leader you admire that maybe shares a
19:30
career path that you would like to explore, or has grown their
19:34
position and stayed in the same position for a long time. What
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are you asking of them? Are you asking them to meet with you
19:41
once a month and push you on something? What does that mean
19:44
to you when that word needs something different to everyone?
19:49
I think that whatever you do, get around people, one on one
19:55
groups get around people where the interaction. That leaves you
20:00
feeling like your bucket is fuller than when you arrived,
20:04
and so is theirs, because those are the relationships that
20:08
you're going to foster and invest your time in those
20:13
experiences, and when it isn't right, I've been in peer groups
20:18
where they're great people, but it's okay to say I got what I
20:21
needed out of this experience from a mentorship perspective,
20:25
and now I need to move on. I think as you do that, you'll
20:29
build this cabinet of experts, of thought partners that you'll
20:35
learn to count on over your career when you have different
20:38
challenges. But it's not all things. To say, it's, I don't
20:43
think one size fits all. And what leadership?
20:46
Lori Anderson: Yeah,I agreed with Debra completely on this.
20:49
And just to add on to that, you need to go into a peer group or
20:54
a relationship, even if it's a one on one mentorship role, I
20:57
tend to gear more toward peer groups. I don't know if one
21:02
person would have everything I needed any given moment. So I
21:05
have hundreds of mentors, because I can look around the
21:07
room and say, I wish I had more of that, or that would be great
21:10
to explore this way of leading. But very important, you need to
21:15
give as much as you get. Because if you were in a peer group or a
21:20
relationship, and you are just sucking out answers, and you're
21:25
not stopping everything to help someone else. There's a level of
21:29
trust that doesn't happen. I really try every time in my many
21:35
groups, when a question comes by, I don't know the answer, but
21:39
I know someone who may, and I connect them, because the true
21:43
value of being in an association is that village, and it's
21:48
unique. I don't know if many other professions that have this
21:52
type of supported atmosphere, maybe because most of us aren't
21:55
direct competitors, therefore we aren't at each other
22:00
competitively. Deb's members are nothing like my members at all,
22:03
and so we can share more, but I stop everything, and that
22:07
includes with former employees who have reached out to me and
22:10
say, I need a new change. I drop everything. I connect them with
22:14
recruiters. I get my ear to the ground. I put things out to help
22:18
them. And you have to give as much or even more than you take
22:24
from any experience with a peer group.
22:26
KiKi L'Italien: So in hearing this again, I'm it's very
22:30
affirming, because I think that anyone who's listening to this
22:34
that says it's great, it's maybe they looked into having the
22:37
right people around them. What I'm hearing is you evolve. You
22:41
figure out what works. So don't fall in love with the idea of
22:45
perfection, like you're gonna land with just the perfect five
22:49
people that are going you're and you're all gonna elevate
22:52
together. Maybe you do, but most of the time it's probably
22:56
something more, like you try different things and you figure
22:59
out your group that maybe ends up working, and it depends on
23:03
what you're looking for. But help; help others too. Don't
23:07
just focus on what you can get out of it. So that sounds like
23:10
good relationship building advice too, not just for
23:13
mentorship, but for life in general, right?
23:15
Lori Anderson: 100%. And sometimes, see, you're in a your
23:18
group, and you're thinking, I'm not getting any value of this.
23:21
Or you go to a conference and you're not getting any value.
23:24
Sometimes that one sentence, that one little idea, can
23:29
snowball when you get back to the office and your time away
23:33
could be exponentially enhanced just by that one little germ of
23:39
an ace of an idea.
23:40
KiKi L'Italien: I love this because you're talking about the
23:43
crack in the window, and you're talking about the one little
23:46
idea I get, the idea that you're paying a lot of attention for
23:50
that moment of inspiration to hit, where you're able to take
23:53
that and learn and grow. And I think that we can all learn
23:58
something from that. That's a great approach. I want to shift
24:01
gears and maybe talk a little bit about foresight. That's one
24:05
of the things that it's a discipline that's become more
24:08
and more important today, I think, because it's such an
24:12
unpredictable environment and so Lori and Debra, how has
24:16
practicing foresight impacted your approach to leadership,
24:21
especially during moments of uncertainty?
24:23
Lori Anderson: We've developed at ISA a leadership meeting,
24:28
which involves a board and three other elected steering
24:31
committees. We call them, and we have an annual event in a
24:36
January of every year that isn't about the current year. And I
24:41
did that as purpose, because the budget's already set, the
24:45
organizational plan, all of that set for that calendar year. Now
24:50
we're meeting in January to do what to talk about, what next,
24:55
not even the next year, but even two or three years from now. And
24:59
sometimes there's themes to this meeting, this event, which
25:03
started, oh, back in 2013 I guess, was the first one we did.
25:08
It was just the hints being said about struggles finding workers
25:12
that led to developing an entire workforce development program.
25:17
And each of these events starts to germinate some thoughts on
25:22
what are the next challenges that could be coming down the
25:25
pike. We have used ASAE foresight works in this
25:29
exercise. We have sometimes focused on particular themes. We
25:33
bring in some keynote speakers that can help facilitate the
25:37
long term. But I think it's the mindset that the meeting is not
25:42
about the here and now. It's all about the future. We're in the
25:47
next one in January of 25 we're talking about demographics, or
25:52
maybe the importance of adding value graphics instead of
25:55
demographics. And we're looking at trying to understand the
25:59
values that are inherent in our stakeholders. We don't know what
26:03
that's going to end up, but that will be long term. Like, what
26:07
does that mean for 26, 27 and 29 and beyond? And that's how
26:13
we've employed foresight. How it changes my leadership again, I
26:17
think it's back to the same thing we've talked about. It's
26:19
those little, teeny things, listening for the nuances and
26:23
what I can do to challenge myself and to challenge the
26:26
organization.
26:27
KiKi L'Italien: So for people who and Debra, I'm going to go
26:30
to you next. For people who are listening to this and not
26:34
watching it, you should just know that I was back here like
26:37
clapping visibly. You can't hear it, but you could see it because
26:41
I was so excited about hearing about the value graphics.
26:44
There's some really great work out there by David Allison. He's
26:47
the one that coming to our event. Yeah, he's remarkable.
26:51
You want to follow up on that? Pick up that thread and Debra,
26:55
let's talk about it. What is the roll of foresight for you?
26:58
Debra BenAvram: I'll pick up from where Lori left off. She
27:01
gave some really great and I'll add from a leadership
27:05
perspective, and one thing I think is really important is to
27:10
remember that it is not your job to have all of the foresight. It
27:16
is not your role. It is your role to make sure that the
27:19
organization and the right people are having that
27:21
conversation, and that can be very hard as we continue on our
27:26
leadership journeys, to remember that our superpower isn't
27:30
knowing how to do everything or about everything, it's knowing
27:34
how to create the environments where the right things end up
27:38
happening, and making sure that that's also the expectation of
27:45
you for whoever it is that you report to that you're having
27:48
that conversation. What are the expectations that might be for
27:53
you with foresight, if you have deep subject matter expertise,
27:57
that's going to be different than if you don't, but that
28:00
conversation is really important. And then how you're
28:04
leveraging your board. What's the board culture? Some boards
28:07
don't love to have really big picture, pie in the sky
28:10
conversations, and then your role in that leadership
28:14
development journey for them is very different than if you are
28:19
working with a board that has been doing that for a long time.
28:23
For me, a tactic that I always employ, no matter what role I'm
28:27
in, is sort of setting some North Stars like, what are the
28:30
things that are for me really always going to be true,
28:33
transparency, risk taking, possibilities, growth mindset,
28:39
when I can bring those into the foresight conversation as a
28:42
leader, those are my tools. I use those tools to hopefully
28:46
open possibilities up for others. So an example for me
28:50
would be as AABB explored the new frontier of bio therapies,
28:55
which we're really positioning AABB in the same thread from
29:01
lorries of workforce development, we were able to
29:03
problem spot what's a problem in the industry that's no one's
29:07
going to have solved in three years, when we would come out
29:10
with a solution, and we ended up delivering the first in field
29:16
credential. We stood up an entire credentialing program and
29:20
delivered that, but we wouldn't have done that if we weren't
29:22
talking about what's coming down the pike. We have to be able to
29:27
see around corners, and that's a skill set that we don't all
29:31
have, and that our teams, our staff and our leaders don't
29:35
always have. So focusing on how we develop that create
29:38
environments for people to learn those skills and ASAE foresight
29:43
works is a really fantastic tool.
29:45
KiKi L'Italien: Speaking of looking around corners and all
29:48
of that, what I'm hearing is that you both have expressed
29:54
that being adaptable, I'm paraphrasing, but being
29:58
adaptable, being flexible. So recognizing where your resources
30:03
are that may not originate with you, that you don't have to have
30:06
all of the answers yourself, but to look around for those
30:09
opportunities or those insights that you can take to help guide
30:14
and lead and maybe open up those conversations that will help to
30:18
get the organization into the direction it needs to go in. We
30:23
can't have a conversation about women and leadership without
30:28
addressing this Glass Cliff phenomenon. And for those who
30:34
aren't familiar with that, many women find themselves promoted
30:37
to these high stakes roles during times of crisis, and this
30:42
is called the Glass Cliff phenomenon, where it's like, oh,
30:44
you're thrust into this position of authority, and now you need
30:48
to solve all of these problems. And for many women, when they
30:52
find themselves in this role, it's shocking. I don't know
30:55
anyone who is just thank you for giving me this chance to feel
30:58
like I'm in a precarious situation. Have either of you
31:01
felt this or faced this challenge?
31:04
Lori Anderson: I was by my first boss in the association world,
31:08
who I admire greatly, and he was the first person I invited to
31:13
come to the awards ceremony. He's long retired and doesn't
31:17
live around here anymore, but he meant so much to me because he
31:20
really supported me. He also welcomed my inquiries into how
31:26
to improve myself. For example, it was a light bulb moment when
31:32
I was told we need an international program Lori,
31:36
create one. I'm simplifying it. And this is a pretty big
31:41
industry. What? But I realized that I didn't need to have the
31:47
answers. But if I could help a committee succeed, then all of a
31:52
sudden, everything grows. And so I asked my boss, I went, I would
31:57
like to take meeting facilitation training, and
32:00
here's a course, can you send me up to Boston for a week? And he
32:05
said, Yes. And from that moment, it was like this sliding door
32:09
moment, because I was struggling. I didn't know how to
32:12
keep things going, I didn't know what to do, and I gained skills
32:17
into learning that it wasn't me who needs the answers, but I
32:21
could learn how to ask the right questions to get a group to
32:25
figure it out, and all of a sudden, the groups I was now
32:30
assigned more and more groups to lead, that they were succeeding,
32:35
and that not only helped the organization succeed, it helped
32:38
My career succeed. And I still employ that same philosophy to
32:43
where I am. Now it's I don't have the answers, but if I can
32:47
help in any way to ask the right questions to get to an answer,
32:52
then we're all in a better place.
32:55
KiKi L'Italien: That's so interesting. Something you said,
32:57
it made me think about an issue that I just came across with the
33:03
organization that I work with, and that is that I think that
33:07
something that you did there, not only did you recognize that
33:10
you didn't need to have all the answers yourself and that you
33:12
could explore, but a committee could help, but you also sought
33:17
training. You looked for training, and you proactively
33:21
went out and said, Ah, here is the training I could use. And
33:25
then you went about figuring out if you could get it. And it's
33:29
fascinating, because the organization I work with just
33:34
recently, the CEO came up and said, we have this budget for
33:38
training, but no one's asking for additional training like
33:43
they people weren't coming, proactively going and saying, we
33:46
need this. And I think it's really interesting that here you
33:49
have listeners, here you have someone who is an award winning
33:54
leader, who is saying, I realized that I needed this
33:58
additional training, and you weren't afraid, she wasn't
34:01
afraid to go after it. So that's something that I thought was
34:05
interesting, that you shared there, that I think is a
34:08
differentiator, maybe for some people who been asked to do this
34:12
thing, and I don't know how to do it, it's maybe looking
34:15
around, yeah, to see what's around you. But also, what do I
34:19
need to learn? What do I need to do?
34:21
Lori Anderson: And I still do this, KiKi. In 2023 I was
34:24
stuck. I didn't know how to get out of my rut. I sought an
34:28
executive coach, and I sought one that could basically slap me
34:33
a little bit get me out of my rut, not somebody who is warm
34:36
and fuzzy, but somebody who could really push my comfort
34:39
zones. And I've used coaches throughout my career in various
34:43
parts of my career, and I just needed one. So yes, back way
34:48
ages ago, I sought out help in learning how to be a better
34:52
meeting facilitator, but I still do that to this day.
34:56
KiKi L'Italien: Oh, good. That's so good. How about you, Debra?
35:00
Have you worked with coaches? Have you gone out and gone after
35:03
those additional training moments?
35:05
Debra BenAvram: Absolutely, I've worked with coaches for a long
35:09
time, and knowing what you want out of that relationship, and
35:13
Lori said she want to kick in the pants, so that's going to
35:16
help you find the right coach for me as well. Training for me,
35:22
one of the things more recently that I've been working on is
35:25
getting exposure to the business world outside of association. So
35:30
I joined an organization called YPO, which is a young
35:33
professional organization, CEOs, global CEO organization, very
35:37
few non profits and associations. That's giving me a
35:41
completely different opportunity to develop new skills and
35:44
exposure to new types of businesses, because we all know
35:47
associations are businesses. It's our tax status that we
35:51
benefit from, but the end of the day, the numbers do have to add
35:54
up. So I knew that was exposure that I need, because I know the
36:00
association space. Where do I take it next in this very fast
36:04
changing world? I think when we're put into a new
36:08
opportunity, there's a crisis happening, and we feel this
36:11
weight as leaders, that someone has trusted us, an organization
36:16
has trusted us, our boss has trusted us to solve the problem
36:21
or to find the solution, and we fall into this trap. And I think
36:27
a lot of female leaders definitely fall into this trap
36:31
of thinking that being the champion for the solution means
36:36
being alone and being the only one who can do and to both
36:41
strategically think and do and be the answer. And sometimes we
36:45
put that on ourselves. Sometimes it's put upon us, to be honest,
36:49
but sometimes we put that on ourselves. When I think about
36:53
those moments when I've asked someone in a crisis to take
36:57
something on, and when it's been a part of my own experience, I'm
37:01
thinking about building transparency, which I share is
37:04
one of my North Stars of transparency and being clear on
37:09
communication along the way, celebrating small wins. Don't
37:12
wait until the end to find out. Like your one ends like glory.
37:17
Just shared how she was talking along the way. Can I do this?
37:19
Can I you're sharing your thought pattern, so your
37:23
leadership, your excellence, what you bring, don't wait till
37:27
the end, the end and outcome of the New International Strategy,
37:32
which was what you were asked to do in the example you gave Lori,
37:36
make sure that you're exposing whoever you're talking to with
37:40
your thinking, How do you think? How are you showing that you're
37:44
expanding? What are the questions you're asking to look
37:47
outside the particular area of your portfolio, to connect the
37:51
dots to other areas of the business and to other aspects of
37:56
how the business connects to the broader world around you. When
37:59
you give people the opportunity to see have a window into your
38:04
brain that lets them engage, that brings intellectual
38:08
curiosity from them, and you're having conversations along the
38:11
way. Something I'm not strong in is making sure to celebrate
38:14
strong wins. I know about myself I'm like, three years from now
38:18
already, I'm excited about the win, but my brain's moved on, so
38:22
making sure that I'm communicating those small wins,
38:25
and making sure that you're adjusting your plans, your
38:30
experience based on your new knowledge, the skills you're
38:33
developing, but also the feedback that you're getting. In
38:37
other words, don't put it on yourself to be alone. Let
38:41
somebody tell you're alone, but until they tell you're alone,
38:44
figure out how to engage others communicate really effectively
38:49
and share what you need to share, to highlight what you're
38:53
doing, and highlight where you need others to plug in.
38:57
KiKi L'Italien: Wow. This is like a master class in
38:59
leadership, because Debra, that is a growing edge for me that I
39:04
have to work on. This celebrating the wins, but
39:07
showing that thinking along the way so other people can learn,
39:12
celebrate, understand and believe in and be part of your
39:16
parade, versus like watching from the side and It being some
39:20
big mystery, this window into your brain approach so important
39:25
to be able to communicate like that, so that other people can
39:28
buy in along the way. And I think that's such a great point.
39:33
I think of it is showing your work. I was always getting in
39:35
trouble in school for not showing my work. I had to, and
39:39
I'm like, oh, but they have to write it out. And I think that's
39:42
something that, even to this day, it's, yeah, show your work,
39:45
let other people in on it, because, hey, guess what? Maybe
39:49
they can contribute, or maybe they can join your parade and
39:52
get excited about the things that you're doing. It's not
39:55
something to be fearful of, which I think is what holds me
39:58
back. Sometimes, some. Pick apart my ideas and all of this,
40:02
but it's something where it's an opportunity, right? And it's
40:05
only something that can help build trust. So that's a great
40:08
point. I have one more question. I could really, honestly, I
40:11
think, talk to you both for a long time, but I have one more
40:15
question that has to do with just being a leader. It has its
40:19
own set of demands. I think we've all decided a long time
40:24
ago that there is no balance with life, right? You're just
40:27
always trying to figure out your best, but it's challenging when
40:30
you're trying to do all of these things beyond the career skills,
40:34
what areas of personal growth for you have been essential to
40:38
your success and your resilience as leaders. Are there other
40:42
areas of your life where it's not just going out and getting
40:45
say that training and facilitation or working with
40:47
committees or what have you, or learning about what it's like to
40:52
be entrepreneurial and that kind of thing, but is there something
40:56
in your own personal growth outside of those things,
41:00
directly impacting your skills at work, that you look at, that
41:04
helps you, that you find, that is essential to your success.
41:09
Lori Anderson: It's a mindfulness journey for me. I
41:11
have gone to mindful retreats. I started meditating many years
41:16
ago. I'm grateful to say it's many years ago now, and 2007 I
41:21
went through a cancer journey. So I'm a breast cancer survivor,
41:25
and what they don't tell you when you go through it is the
41:28
hardest part mentally, is after you go through all the
41:31
treatments, because then you imagine that every hangnail and
41:35
every thing is possibly another round of it, right? And in this
41:41
process, I discovered the importance of mine. I read books
41:46
I had Tolle's "Power of Now," and some other books by various
41:51
monks, etc, that more appreciate the present moment and not
41:58
constantly imagine what's next, because what you imagine is that
42:04
it's imagination. It's not real, and that's a continuous process,
42:09
and that is a journey we are all on to various degree, and you
42:15
never complete it. You never win it. And being comfortable with
42:19
the moment at hand is maybe the biggest challenge we could ever
42:24
face.
42:25
Debra BenAvram: Beautiful. I wish I could tell you I had the
42:29
kind of mindfulness practice that Lori has developed and that
42:32
I admire so much I I'm a little bit more of a work in progress
42:36
that maybe I care to met, but I think that for me, over the
42:42
course of my career that I've ebbed and flowed and COVID
42:47
really helped me open my eyes to making good choices about how I
42:53
decide to spend my time and how I decide to spend my
42:56
discretionary time. And we could go to dinner with an ASAE
43:00
colleague every other night. We can go to everything we get
43:03
invited to, and we can, I can, I'll own the statement, then
43:08
really end up not getting much out of any of those experiences.
43:12
So what I've tried to do in my own practice, in my own life, is
43:17
really be intentional about how I'm spending my time and how I
43:23
want to show up for myself and for others. How does that
43:26
translate? It translates into I've said no to some things, and
43:30
I've stepped back from some things that maybe I gave to
43:34
maybe I did that had run their course, and I've stepped up into
43:38
other things that have really been a bigger part of what I
43:42
want to do. So some of those are making sure to spend time or
43:47
travel with my son, who's an international athlete. So that's
43:50
one on one time when I can't always work having that special
43:54
time. We have dinner as a family every night. That's hard to do,
43:58
I know, but that's what happens in the BenAvram house. Our son's
44:02
21. He's a college now, but we still do that with our daughter,
44:06
and then making choices around spirituality and around the
44:10
things that really, from a volunteer perspective, make a
44:14
difference. For me, my family supports an orphanage in eastern
44:18
Uganda that helps girls who would otherwise be on the street
44:23
and double down on that and a few other really important
44:28
issues that for me fill my bucket, even though their time,
44:33
that allow me to use the skills I have built in my career as a
44:38
leader, but allow me to get something very different out of
44:42
that, and then bring that back to my family. So I'm still on
44:46
that journey, but I think I'm getting much better at choosing
44:51
the things that from a time perspective, I both give and
44:55
have a meaningful ROI in whatever it is for me that I
44:59
decide that needs to be.
45:01
KiKi L'Italien: It's beautiful. It's beautiful. I can't tell you
45:04
both how much I it was just such a pleasure to speak with both of
45:09
you today, and I've learned something, and I know that the
45:12
listeners are going to learn something too. So thank you both
45:15
for sharing your wisdom and your insights.
45:20
Debra BenAvram: Thank you so much, KiKi and Lori, always a
45:23
pleasure. Thank you.
45:25
Lori Anderson: I can't wait to share the stage with you in
45:27
March. It's so exciting. And thank you, KiKi, for this
45:29
opportunity.
45:31
KiKi L'Italien: So I just want to say to our listeners, thank
45:34
you for joining us. Be sure to subscribe to the associations
45:38
now podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your
45:42
favorite podcasts. For even more association goodness, visit
45:46
associationsnow.com, ASAE, of course. And then if my voice
45:51
didn't completely rattle your cage, you might want to check
45:54
out my regular podcast, the Association Chat podcast, which
45:58
you can find over on associationchat.com, until next
46:01
time everyone, stay true to your vision, keep sharing your
46:05
stories and remember every conversation offers a chance for
46:10
change you.