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What I've Learnt - Kayte Nunn · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they're all killers, but only one will resort to murder.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Newly widowed beauty entrepreneur Beauty Savage's 40th birthday is fast approaching, and she plans to celebrate it at the Palazzo Stellina, a historic former convent in the foothills of the Italian Alps, run by disgraced chef Marco Bianchi and his elderly grandmother.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this is the tone of the new book by the wonderful Katie Nunn, best-selling author.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's called The Palazzo, and it's a murder mystery for fans of Lucy Foley and the White Lotus.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: The film and TV rights are in development for adaptation through an international production company.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: I am thrilled to have Katie Nunn join me on the What I've Learned podcast.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: We love an author and we love talking books.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome, Katie.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Deborah.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Nice to be here.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, Kate, congratulations on your new book and scoring a film adaptation, which is not easy, although Australian writers seem to be in high demand.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Look at Liana Murati.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Was she an inspiration for you?
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, oh yes, I'm a massive fan of hers, definitely.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I particularly love the adaptation of Big Little Eyes.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's there's just a uh a hunger for story at the moment, and I think uh screen production companies have realized that when you've got a novel, you've got a fully realized world and fully developed characters in a way you might not have necessarily with the starting with a script.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: So yes, they they are becoming more and more popular, which is fantastic.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's great to just get your work out to a wider audience.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, having said that, um, lots of books are optioned.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, not all of them are made, so we'll we'll have just have to wait and see and hold hold my breath, really.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's true, but it's still nice to be in the queue, isn't it?
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, it is.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: It is.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's certainly a vote of confidence um by by the powers that be.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: So so talk to me about why do you think that Australian stories like the ones that you write, and um obviously this one's set in Italy, but the concepts seem there seems to be a cut through for a lot of Australian writers.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you think that is?
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's a really good question.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm entirely sure why.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of the stories that have done well as adaptations have been uh very Australian specific, and I think maybe the world is waking up to uh the options uh in terms of Australian stories.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking of Jane Harper, for example.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: I was about to raise her, exactly.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: She's next on my list, so very relevant.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Chris Hammer, um JP Pomari, a lot of crime, actually, as well.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, see, Australian crime.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's there's a thriving literary community here, and it's nice that it's finally being recognized, I suppose.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's true.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I have interviewed Jane Harper on the podcast, and she is wonderful.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I love the the way that she talks about, well, for her, journalism was a backdrop, and so she learnt certain skills.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: And as a journalist myself, we had a lot in common.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about you learn certain things that basically they become assets when you're writing a script or you're writing fiction because you've had to learn to hone and really drill down.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think that your experience as a magazine editor and your past writing experience has fueled or facilitated what you're doing and how you write?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: There's the whole idea of um to get really good at something, you have to do 10,000 hours of practice.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I do believe that a lot of my um ability to write an effective sentence, to uh not overwrite uh even the discipline of actually getting the words down and adhering to a deadline, all of that comes from my editing and magazine um sort of editing background.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: The thing um I used to really enjoy doing was editing other people's copy uh and cutting it down and making it fit and even just cutting the odd word here and there to really tighten a story, and I find that invaluable.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: And even if I go back and do it to my own writing, it's that rewriting.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: The the writing is in the rewriting, the editing, the really distilling it down to be as effective as possible.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think also when I was younger, I read an awful lot of poetry, and the the ability to understand rhythm of language and to hear it in your head, I think it has been invaluable for me as a writer, definitely.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: But what I didn't know was how to tell a story, tell a fictional story, and that was a huge learning curve for me.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: And when I first started, I was like, well, how hard could it be?
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: I read a book that I really was very unimpressed by that had done quite well, and I thought, well, I can do better than that.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: I had no idea just how hard it is.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's interesting to me because sometimes I come across and I read a lot as well, and I'm in book clubs, and I have the what I've learned book club, and I'm constantly books are constantly coming across my desk.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm with you in that there are some books that I go, how was this published?
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's not so good.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: Or I'll read other books and go, This is wonderful.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to do something like this.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, where did this all start for you?
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: How did you cross over from the your role as a magazine editor and that sphere into the fictional journey?
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: And how hard was it?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I was in my early 40s, and uh it had always been a secret dream, but one I never even admitted to myself.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd written little bits of ideas down in notebooks, and and they'd never really gone any further.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I never thought I could sustain an idea over kind of 80 to 90,000 words, you know, a thousand to fifteen hundred words seemed to be my limit and what I was used to writing.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: I hear you, yeah.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: But then as I said, I read this one book, um, and I thought, wow, I could actually do, I could do something like that.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: It, you know, I thought it was that bad, the bar was low.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then a friend of mine came up to me in the school playground um one day and said, I've written a book and I've got a deal.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, of course, I was really happy for her, but I was like, that was my dream.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so I gave me a real kick up the bum and kind of now or never.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: I was freelancing at the time and I had a gap between projects of about six weeks, and I deliberately didn't go looking for any more work and thought I'll just give it a go and see what I can do.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and a story idea had come to me.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: And what I found most interesting was I loved the feeling of having written at the end of the day.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: I was really creaky, and it it's a bit like when you go for your first run when you decide you want to run a marathon.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: You'll it's really, really hard, and you probably run for five minutes and think that's you know, that's going to be impossible.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: But you just do it little by little, day by day, and your muscles go st grow stronger.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: And now the actual putting down of the words on the page comes quite much more easily to me.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's the ideas and and the motivation and then developing character that is is still you know quite a challenge.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: So structurally, do you okay?
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: So just on that note, so you put together, you have this six weeks window, you put together your first book.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: This is your seventh, as I understand, which is exciting.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Sixteenth, actually.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't that incredible?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: I loved out like really amazing.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: So when you first came up with the notion that you were going to present do this book and then present it to a publisher, how did you go?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: What was the process for young writers out there or old writers, whatever, older writers?
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I made the mistake of um thinking it was ready before it was, uh, but and I gradually revised and revised.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: I submitted to literary agents, I Googled how to do it, and I had worked in that area and I worked in publishing years ago, so I kind of knew the process, but I didn't have any contacts.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody once said to me, Oh, you must have had contacts being jealous.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, no, I knew nobody.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: I just um called, you know, submitted cold, looked, uh one of the really useful things is to look in the acknowledgments of books that you admire and try and they often thank their agent.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: I knew I needed a literary agent and that it wasn't, I wasn't going to submit direct to publishers.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: Most publishers won't accept books submitted directly, and even if they do, you just stand a better chance with the literary agent.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I just compiled a wish list of literary agents and went through it.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and one day I had a call from my first agent, and she told me all the things that were wrong with the manuscript and where I needed to completely rewrite it.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we had about a 45-minute conversation, and then she said, Well, you don't sound too overwhelmed by that.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: Go away and do it, come back and and then we'll talk.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I did.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: That is really interesting.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like it's like dating, really, isn't it?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's sort of like you have to really yeah, you sort of have to like, they have to like you and get your vision, and you have to like them because they've got to represent you in a very intimate way, really, because you're sharing something that you've spent time and energy, and you know that that's quite a it there's a a relationship of trust, and you had to then so when you definitely definitely so you're looking for somebody with a really good reputation, but also somebody um who you just who gets your work, that's really important, um, and who you think you can get along with.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: And at that point, had you honed what genre was your passion?
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: Not really, and I've written across a number of genres.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think it is really important for a writer to be aware of the market and market trends, but not to slavishly follow them because of the time lag.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: By the time, you know, if you're writing what's absolutely hot in the market right now, which is say romanticy, by the time your book's finished and gets accepted for publication, you could be two or three years down the track and and the the market might have moved on.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: But you still do need to be aware of what is selling and and what you're producing, particularly um, and I'm really talking about if you're writing genre fiction.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're writing crime or romance or um rural romance, that kind of thing, you do need to know what is out there in the market.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: So for your first book, what was your vision?
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: And did it how far was it from where you started?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it was pretty close, actually.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: I I took the advice of write what you know, and I had been editing uh wine magazine for quite a number of years, and so I thought I'd love to set uh romance in a vineyard in Australia, and that's what I did.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: And my first two novels were set in that um fictional vineyard area.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: I quickly moved on.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: I just had an idea for my third book that was a historical idea, and so I followed that.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so in terms of writing in different genres, I have moved across genres, and that can be problematic for a writer because a publisher wants you to have a certain brand and for your readers to be able to find you.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm always terrified about writing the same book over and over again.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: So that might have something to do with why I've moved now from historical fiction to crime fiction.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm also seeking to really challenge myself with every book and write a better book every time.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I looked around at the sort of books I was reading and thought, wow, I'd really like to write a closed circle murder mystery in an isolated place.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I thought I'd have a go at it.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: And just in terms of the impact your literary agent had on your trajectory, did that agent drive or control much of what it was that you were delivering?
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: Or were they more like on the sidelines?
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh definitely on the sidelines, yeah.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: They as long as I wrote a good book, that was really um the most important thing.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I have to say, I've actually changed literary agents a couple of times as well for sort of various business and and sort of global reasons.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: They've all all three of them have been brilliant in terms of letting me supporting me and letting me do what I want to do.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: Publishers may be less so, and I have changed publishers with the new direction because again, a publisher really wants to create you as a brand and um have readers find you.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: Very interesting.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: So because when I was speaking to Jane Harpo, and I I come back to this, and also Nikki Gemmel, who's got another, obviously, um, she's done 20 books and she's really interesting as well.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about this a lot because um the notion of having a vision and then actually getting out on paper and also then being free.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: I ironically, as you say, the role of an editor is to sort of control and trim and get it all right, but also you need to allow your intuition and your flexibility and your freedom to think and to be creative.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: Do you find that sometimes a bit of a tussle?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, definitely.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, for me, uh, because you I spend a year writing a book, I can't phone it in.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: It has to be something I'm passionate about.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: It has to be an idea I'm really excited by.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and it just so happened that that when I've seized on an idea, that's what I've I've gone with.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: It might not be the most strategic career building uh idea, but uh for me it's important to write something I'm proud of and that I've got the energy behind to spend a year or more with.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: And how many hours a day are you writing?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Are you very disciplined?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: I I have to be fairly disciplined.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it really varies.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: I it's not so much a time thing as a word count thing.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: And some days the words flow and I can be done in the space of a couple of hours, and other days I'll be there all day until five, six o'clock, and it's just not coming.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes if it's too hard, I'll give up and go for a walk or go for a drive.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: And it's usually then that ideas come for me, particularly walking.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so then I'll go back to my desk.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but uh yeah, it's more I try and give myself, make myself write at least a thousand words in a writing session and keep myself on track.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a bit like um all those old homework revision timetables for exams.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: I do this great strategic plan and think, yes, if I do that then and I get that done, and that'll be done by then, and it sort of works.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: It helps keep me on track, even if I don't absolutely adhere to it.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: Another friend of mine actually um does a word count bingo.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: So she might write a number of different word counts all down on squares over the course of say 30 days, and she'll just pick one and go, right, those are the that's the amount of words I've got to write today, at least.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: And she'll she knows that say by the end of the month or two months that the word count will have been reached, but it just varies each day.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a way of kind of teasing your brain.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'll often just open a doc open the document and tell myself, I'm just just having a look at it, just noodling around, no pressure, and then you know, I'm in the story and and absorbed.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: That is so that is hilarious.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: I love that big go idea.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's really funny.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but also just in terms of scaffolding, do you do you find, and I know different authors work in different ways, Trent Dalton's another one who's been on the podcast, and he spoke about all this too.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: The scaffolding, in other words, are you creating your characters first?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Your like what's your process in that sense?
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I do spend a few months thinking about it, and particularly when I was writing historical fiction, I did a lot of research uh ahead of time.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I am thinking, I'm thinking about the characters, I'm thinking about the setting, I'm thinking about the inciting incident, what's going to kick it all off.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um but the characters, I'm not one of those people who can come up with a whole character cheat sheet and know exactly who they are straight away.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: They kind of reveal themselves to me as I'm writing, and then I get to know who they are.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: I do have, I keep a document that gives their basic details, um, even minor characters, because otherwise I'll forget what I've named them.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I was talking to another writer recently who's written who's written quite a lot of books, um, Rachel Johns, and we were both saying that we really need a document of all the character names we've used so that we don't double up and read.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: Not another Carol.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or not another Carol.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: I know, exactly.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's so I really should, I should spend some procrastination time doing that and just going through my previous books.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: You you know, you refer to um collegiate relationships.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: How important are those for you in terms of having that discussion around?
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like I know, even just on the podcast, we have a lot of authors come on and I love interviewing them, and I've learned a lot through the process, and each has a different process, but it's actually a really wonderful insight that you get.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: How much does does sort of the collegiate aspect, because it's quite a lonely, isolating process in some ways, you've got to sit there and really focus on your own, you know, trajectory, but having other people around to talk through, as you've just mentioned, e.g.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: bingo author.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, look, it's hugely, hugely important because it can, as you said, can be quite an isolating experience.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you can doubt yourself constantly.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just in terms of sharing market information and knowledge about publishers, about agents, about all that kind of stuff, as well as lifting each other up and celebrating each other's successes, uh, the the Australian writing community is just enormously supportive.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and almost everybody takes the the idea that a rising tide lifts all boats.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: And and I've seen uh examples on social media and I've had it um experienced it myself when other writers that I've met will come along to my events and support me.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um they'll we'll read each other's books, and if we like it, we'll say something, you know, we'll tell people how good we thought it was, all that kind of thing.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's a fantastic community, yes.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so for you, did you have to go to Italy and like research?
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I have been to that part of Italy before, but it was quite a while ago.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: I initially was going to set a historical novel there, but couldn't quite make it work.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I was thinking about an isolated, closed circle kind of um setting, that came back to me.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but actually at the time I was watching a lot of my friends heading off to Europe on their wonderful Eurosummer trips and consumed with jealousy.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't travel at the time.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and so I actually thought I'd do the next best thing and write a book that was set there.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I spent a lot of my time immersing myself in beautiful pictures of beautiful Italian palazzos with amazing swimming pools and and uh yes, really imagining I was there.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: So um, yeah, that was that's the story behind it.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, go imagination, thank goodness for that's why we're writers, that's why we're journalists, so that we can imagine and be be there even if we're not there.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: But so for you, the palazzo, and it's obviously a thriller theme.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, was the White Lotus and that?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's quite funny because we were actually discussing how books and fiction like The White Lotus and the series have actually changed the way people are when they travel.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it's the impact of fiction on fact versus fact on fiction.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: And we were laughing because we were actually recently on a trip and we're all in hysterics because we were spotting, and you know, we were going, oh, well, there's like the character, you know, the father, and there's so you actually, I thought this was really interesting to see this sort of reversal of fiction, literally dinner table conversation in a in a traveling setting.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a really interesting reflection, how writers are now creating this and creating that.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it has had a huge impact.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: I loved the first White Lotus, and that might have been part of the influence to writing a destination thriller.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I was in the middle of writing the palazzo, um, White Lotus Sicily came out, and I was like, well, thank goodness I didn't set my novel in Sicily because that would have looked really try-hard.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um I was like, well, Italy, but it's the other end of Italy.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think it'll probably be all right.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yes, and I've loved every single one.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think the difference with my novel is that it's a group of people who all know each other, whereas White Lotus seems to bring in disparate, um, small groups of people, which I mean, gosh, Mike White does it absolutely brilliantly.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: But I love the interactions between those people.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and what for me, what write what writing the palazzo brought is an ability to go much deeper into character, to really create very nuanced characters who have a lot of different aspects to them, who have all sorts of things that happened in their past that now impact on the present.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that probably wasn't something I was able to explore as deeply in my historical fiction.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: So that's been the real thrill.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and just to have fun with it, I think.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you look like you've had fun with it reading it.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: Teasing it, teasing the reader and teasing out the information, um, and uh just slowly dropping clues along the way.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's why it's a thriller, it works so well.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: Do you who's your favourite character?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have one?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I do, yes.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and in fact, my favourite character is Caro, who is um the main character Vivi's best friend from uni, and I was so sympathetic to her because she's a bit of a hot mess and she's made some really poor choices throughout her life.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I was quite interesting, interested in looking at what happens when you have a group of people who might have known each other for 20 odd years, uh, at a time when the the playing field was very level, but then now all of a sudden some some are much more successful than others, much wealthier, they seem to have really made it, whereas others probably have kind of failed to launch and looking at how that affects the relationship 20 odd years on.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that was really interesting, and I really did feel for Caro, yes.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think that's a very relevant reflection that a lot of people, particularly post 40, um, I think thought that was that's very clever that you've tapped into that because I think that's a very common experience that you have those different layers and those relationships can be impacted, as you say, by certain journeys that different people take and where they end up.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, and um whether you know the the Friendship's still there, but um different characters might judge each other more harshly, um, and uh and how that sort of comes out.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I oh, I think it's it's endlessly fascinating.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and in terms of the way, you know, I mean, you talk about and hopefully this option for the book um comes through, as you outlined.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think streaming and the endless content and I mean it's just changed the landscape so much?
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: Once upon a time, it was like you've got to get optioned to get it made into a film, which is gonna be millions and millions and millions and millions of dollars.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: Now there is such an appetite for this sort of for content.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: So suddenly authors have become, I was reading bookshops particularly have gone crazy.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it actually they're they're actually, which at one point they weren't, they were struggling.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: It seems they've become much more back in favor.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: But also, I think it's weird that that the streaming services are driving this appetite for the story, the storyteller.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: We've become really cool, like to tell the story.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we always have been, but you know, it's suddenly there's a real it's voracious compared to what it used to be, I think.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but certainly not as elite, I think.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, a recognition of um the importance of story is fantastic as a writer to see that, yes, and and the fact that people like to have that personal control.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you want to watch all six episodes and absolutely binge watch, which I like nothing better than doing, um, you can really focus in on that in a way that um you you probably wouldn't watch six hours of a movie, but somehow it's just like just one more episode, just one more.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely good point.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's very interesting.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: So when you're writing, are you conscious of that issue?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: Are you are you chaptering it up in a season sort of structure?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: No, I I couldn't be that deliberate about it, I don't think.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but an awful lot happens within the course of a book in a way that maybe so much doesn't happen in a a two-hour movie.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um maybe it's just more events paced throughout the narrative.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: I do think that's a very good point.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: You wouldn't watch a six-hour movie, but you'd watch you write the binge factor is really quite addictive.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: And you just go, yeah, just online.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I was doing it last night watching something.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so for you, are you hopeful and positive about the future for writing and authors?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: And how is AI, for example, have you seen any of that um resonate in your arena and and are you concerned by it?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm massively concerned, uh, particularly because author's work has been scraped illegally and we've seen no benefit.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: And to be honest, it's um it's quite hard to make a living as an author, particularly in Australia.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it is in other countries around the world as well.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's there's a bit of a kind of winner takes all in that the the very, very successful authors uh manage to make a living.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's quite a lot harder in the mid-list, um, and authors are not given as much time necessarily and space to to create work and uh as many chances.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you're only really as good as your last book these days.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's very true.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's quite hard.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um yes, I I think about discoverability.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: There just seem to be more and more books published, and yes, more there is a greater discoverability with social media, but it's still there's there's a lot out there that um to it's quite hard for writers to find their readers that can be a challenge.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: In terms of AI, I look, I've I've used it occasionally as a bit of a um a test.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I was using it the other day actually saying, write me a tagline or a shout line for this a novel with this title.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't find anything that was useful, but what it did do is start my brain thinking, and then I came up with something quite different.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: So that was kind of interesting.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: But I I would never, I couldn't ever imagine using it to help me write a novel.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: I just think it would not be helpful.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I tend to agree.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's still a little esoteric, even though I think we're across what it can offer.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: It is very esoteric.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: And things like book talk have obviously gone crazy.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I love book talk.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's brilliant, and I love the podcast world, which I'm now very embedded in, and I love because we do it has made a lot of this more accessible.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: So there are some positives coming out of the technology, and I see that as the positives.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: The AI is still a little, you know, wait and see.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: Have you have you sort of seen the impact of book talk?
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's so cool.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I've actually seen it, the impact mainly uh on my daughter, who is 15, and she is um quite obsessed by reading, which gladdens my heart, but really not because of me, but because it's a book talk, and she will want certain collectors' editions.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: She will become aware of books because she sees them on book talk, which is fantastic, and then we'll either order them or we'll get them from the library.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: So that's been amazing, and anything that takes teenagers away from their screens and onto the pages of a book, I think is fantastic.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm in total agreement with you, and I want to thank you so much, Kate, for joining me at the What I've Learnt podcast.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's been an absolute treat, and I look forward to see what you do next.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: But for all our listeners out there, the palazzo is out and it's a wonderful read.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: And uh good luck with everything, but great to see you and hope you enjoy the next few sessions with uh all the other people that are interviewing you.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm glad that we got booked.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much, Deborah.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate your interest.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Kate.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: Love Jeff.