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Why Most Leaders Get Kindness Wrong | Christy Pretzinger · Business Roundtable

0:31
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Business Roundtable Podcast. I've got a
0:34
Speaker 1: brand new guest this week. I'm super excited to have
0:37
Speaker 1: Christy Prisoner with us. And Christy and I have been
0:40
Speaker 1: talking actually before we recorded this, and I've had some
0:43
Speaker 1: meetings beforehand, and we just thought we had a great topic.
0:46
Speaker 1: But as I was sharing with her, and I love
0:49
Speaker 1: having women business owners on this podcast because I think
0:52
Speaker 1: it really helps even those women that are not business
0:55
Speaker 1: owners that are just up and coming in the workplace.
0:57
Speaker 1: I love to hear from folks like you, christ So
1:00
Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. Christy. You've got a buried background,
1:06
Speaker 1: so I've done a lot of different things, but I
1:09
Speaker 1: would love to have you just share with the Business
1:11
Speaker 1: round Table Podcast as our newest guests, a little bit
1:14
Speaker 1: about yourself, your background, and then we'll jump into our
1:17
Speaker 1: topic about leading with kindness and how you've incorporated that
1:21
Speaker 1: in your business and culture.
1:23
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, thank you for having me, David. I've really
1:25
Speaker 2: been looking forward to our conversation after we first met.
1:29
Speaker 2: I think that it's gonna be a good conversation. I
1:30
Speaker 2: love sharing my business journey, especially with other women business owners,
1:35
Speaker 2: and sharing what I've learned and seeing how I can.
1:37
Speaker 1: Help them absolutely absolutely. So we were talking about, you know,
1:47
Speaker 1: authentic leadership earlier, but we got on here how do
1:50
Speaker 1: we how do we show up authentically? And and really
1:53
Speaker 1: the question is, I think can can kindness you know,
1:56
Speaker 1: coexist and with account of the accountability and growth in business?
2:01
Speaker 1: And I think you and I were talking about sometimes
2:03
Speaker 1: that this and this is different than nice. This is
2:06
Speaker 1: being truly kind and in creating that culture and just
2:11
Speaker 1: how you know, how you've been able to do that successfully?
2:14
Speaker 1: And so what's kind of the for you the foundation
2:18
Speaker 1: of kindness? How where did you find this? What along
2:20
Speaker 1: your journey? And like, Okay, I can be kind, I
2:23
Speaker 1: can be successful as a business owner. You know.
2:27
Speaker 2: It's funny. I think I shared with you that when
2:30
Speaker 2: I started building my business thirty years ago, I actually
2:33
Speaker 2: not thirty, was twenty when I was building this one.
2:35
Speaker 2: And I said to my account at the time that
2:38
Speaker 2: if I couldn't build a business based on kindness, I
2:39
Speaker 2: would go back to being a freelance writer, which is
2:41
Speaker 2: what I had been doing. And then I kind of
2:44
Speaker 2: forgot about it, as you build a business and you
2:45
Speaker 2: wear all the hats right and doing all the things.
2:48
Speaker 2: But it was an intention and it was only in
2:50
Speaker 2: hindsight that I could actually, you know, as you get
2:52
Speaker 2: older and wiser and you have some experience, you look
2:54
Speaker 2: back and you see the important role that intention played
2:59
Speaker 2: in what you then do in your life. So for me,
3:03
Speaker 2: the kindness, it wasn't that I had worked for unkind people.
3:07
Speaker 2: It was that the structures within which they worked didn't
3:09
Speaker 2: foster kindness. And again I wouldn't have known that at
3:12
Speaker 2: the time. It's almost something that I can look at
3:15
Speaker 2: in retrospect and see that that that information has informed
3:18
Speaker 2: how we've structured the organization and all of the things
3:22
Speaker 2: that we've done to enable things people to be kind
3:26
Speaker 2: to one another and for the processes to foster kindness.
3:31
Speaker 2: So it's really been a backbone of kind of who
3:34
Speaker 2: I am anyway. And then you know, I think, I
3:38
Speaker 2: think there's I recite this one. There's that book called
3:40
Speaker 2: There's no such thing as business ethics, It's just ethics, right,
3:43
Speaker 2: So I was just either are kind of you're not,
3:45
Speaker 2: and it's not you're not kind at home, and then
3:48
Speaker 2: mean it work, so it's just who you are. So
3:51
Speaker 2: that was always my intention, And then I think people
3:54
Speaker 2: were attracted to that. Tracts like so people that they
3:58
Speaker 2: kind of like they knew it or not, they kind
4:00
Speaker 2: of vibeing with that energy. Really kind of grown from there.
4:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I love that. I mean, yeah, leading Really
4:08
Speaker 1: what I hear you say is that was one of
4:10
Speaker 1: one of your core values of kindness, leading with kindness,
4:14
Speaker 1: leading yourself and across all areas. And I do agree
4:17
Speaker 1: with you. As we embrace this, you're going to find
4:19
Speaker 1: people that are like, that's something different. And I think
4:24
Speaker 1: leading in who you're are just authentically Christie.
4:28
Speaker 2: You know that's so important. For a while, I would
4:32
Speaker 2: get kind of the word authentic was so overused when
4:35
Speaker 2: started doing it right, But the reason it's overused is
4:37
Speaker 2: because it's important. You know, it really is being being
4:41
Speaker 2: true to yourself and being able to be proud of
4:45
Speaker 2: who you are and how you show up in the world.
4:48
Speaker 2: So for for furthering into the organization, what then happen
4:51
Speaker 2: when we created values as a team, because I think
4:55
Speaker 2: that's important that they are created as a team to
4:58
Speaker 2: make sure you have people buying in and that that
4:59
Speaker 2: you we all agree this is who we are. Yes,
5:02
Speaker 2: So our values are we are empowered, curious, kind and fun.
5:05
Speaker 2: So kindness is definitely right there.
5:08
Speaker 1: Yes, well I love that too. You said you're building
5:11
Speaker 1: with a team, because I think this is a transition,
5:13
Speaker 1: especially if you're a I think we might have talked
5:16
Speaker 1: about this previously as well. But the previously company, one
5:19
Speaker 1: of the previous companies I was with with a woman
5:21
Speaker 1: business owner, we had to I say, separate is the
5:25
Speaker 1: right word, but we had to be able to create
5:26
Speaker 1: the organization to stand beyond just who she was as
5:29
Speaker 1: an individual and the founder of what is this company?
5:33
Speaker 1: This organization going to be beyond you being intentional, like
5:38
Speaker 1: you said, creating the structure or the framework that we're
5:41
Speaker 1: going to build on, right that foundation.
5:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, very much so. And you know, especially when when
5:47
Speaker 2: your business is younger, I usually use that term instead
5:51
Speaker 2: of smaller because it's really just younger.
5:53
Speaker 1: Yes, that's a good point.
5:54
Speaker 2: And one of the important things that I learned was
5:57
Speaker 2: learning to hire to replace myself. And when you're doing
6:00
Speaker 2: when you're the business and you're the salesperson and then
6:03
Speaker 2: you're the one who operates and you do the accounting
6:04
Speaker 2: and you do all the things, it's so key to
6:07
Speaker 2: finding people that can replace you. And what I frequently
6:12
Speaker 2: say and find to be vastly important is making sure
6:16
Speaker 2: your ego is not in the way that you hire
6:18
Speaker 2: people who are smarter than you in that area. You know,
6:21
Speaker 2: if you are under the impression that you're the best
6:24
Speaker 2: at something, well, then congratulations, you brought yourself a job. Yes,
6:28
Speaker 2: and long intention was never to do that. I wanted
6:30
Speaker 2: to lift other people up and also get to the
6:32
Speaker 2: point where I could work on the business, not in
6:34
Speaker 2: the business.
6:35
Speaker 1: Absolutely, No, that's that's so important. I think you and
6:39
Speaker 1: I are talking about that book about the e myth
6:43
Speaker 1: and that same concept of you know, and not working
6:46
Speaker 1: with a business owner. Just on that very aspect. Christie,
6:48
Speaker 1: she she loves working in the business of the time,
6:51
Speaker 1: but she recognizes to get the business in a healthy place,
6:55
Speaker 1: not that she wants to sell the business but right now.
6:57
Speaker 1: But you, like you said, Chris, you've got to make
6:59
Speaker 1: it that way. Yeah. And you have a culture that
7:01
Speaker 1: people want to be there and and you are attracted
7:05
Speaker 1: to you know, that's really important. That's you know, like
7:09
Speaker 1: why are people staying with your company for so long
7:11
Speaker 1: because they believe in this bigger picture. They they love
7:15
Speaker 1: that the empathy and the kindness, like you said, that's
7:18
Speaker 1: it's a fabric. It's weeped in that, like, I love
7:20
Speaker 1: how you just rattle off your your values of being,
7:23
Speaker 1: you know, being fun and curious. And I think those
7:25
Speaker 1: should be flow very flow throughout the organization. It shouldn't
7:29
Speaker 1: be somebody says like, let me go find that? Where
7:31
Speaker 1: was that again? Who are we? Right?
7:33
Speaker 2: We? Very much we. I always tell people I wrote
7:36
Speaker 2: about this in in my book, that your values should
7:39
Speaker 2: be constant. The expression of your values could change over time,
7:42
Speaker 2: but you have the values to be constant. And I
7:45
Speaker 2: always say that they are a thread that flows throughout
7:47
Speaker 2: your organization and upon which all decisions can hang. So
7:51
Speaker 2: people can actually think about that and think, Okay, am
7:54
Speaker 2: I am I empowered to make this decision? Am I
7:57
Speaker 2: being kind in the way I'm making it? Have I been?
8:00
Speaker 1: He is?
8:00
Speaker 2: To find out all the things I need to know?
8:02
Speaker 2: You know? And hopefully you're having some fun?
8:04
Speaker 1: Yes too, well you brought. I mean this is so
8:07
Speaker 1: important for those of you, maybe that are in the
8:10
Speaker 1: younger stage, like you said of the business, because sometimes
8:13
Speaker 1: I work with business owners Christy and that they're struggling
8:16
Speaker 1: with getting response from their employees. And I said, is
8:19
Speaker 1: it clear, like what you just said are the values
8:22
Speaker 1: that we're all ascribing to because if it's not clear,
8:26
Speaker 1: then you're going to have some challenges because you know,
8:29
Speaker 1: if your teamwork is one of clear value to you,
8:32
Speaker 1: and you come up to the person, and this is
8:34
Speaker 1: where I think an example of kindness saying, look, you
8:36
Speaker 1: know what we all are saying, we want to be
8:39
Speaker 1: team members together, we all want to win together. And
8:42
Speaker 1: you're you're constantly not getting your reports in, you're not
8:45
Speaker 1: getting things, and you're not being considered of the team.
8:48
Speaker 1: So if you are you truly committed to this or not,
8:52
Speaker 1: you know, And I think that's a kind I mean,
8:54
Speaker 1: there's obviously I'm being a little bit blunt, but here,
8:57
Speaker 1: you know, there's a kindness in there of like calling
8:59
Speaker 1: them up right and maybe talk a little bit about
9:02
Speaker 1: how you've been able to be kind and call people
9:04
Speaker 1: up not necessarily calling them out. That's kind of a
9:06
Speaker 1: thing that I like to distinguish.
9:09
Speaker 2: I would say that, in fact, we just did a
9:13
Speaker 2: like a mastermind classical accountability with empathy. And one of
9:18
Speaker 2: the ways that we try to do this is if
9:21
Speaker 2: someone starts doing something like you just said, if they
9:23
Speaker 2: start missing deadlines or they're showing up late to meetings,
9:26
Speaker 2: and this is talking about a change of behavior that
9:28
Speaker 2: somebody changes like that that instead of calling them up
9:31
Speaker 2: what we would say the leader would say after meeting
9:33
Speaker 2: or something saying, hey, you know, can we talk about
9:35
Speaker 2: this for a minute. I've noticed that you know your
9:37
Speaker 2: behavior has changed late to meetings, missing deadlines. Can you
9:40
Speaker 2: tell me what's going on and give that person an
9:43
Speaker 2: opportunity to address it, not in excuses, but like something
9:47
Speaker 2: could be going on and you don't know about it,
9:49
Speaker 2: and then that way we can find out what the
9:51
Speaker 2: situation is if there really is something personal going on
9:54
Speaker 2: that they need to address. We always say absolutely should
9:56
Speaker 2: do that, But what is not is not telling us
9:59
Speaker 2: about it and as comfortable as much as you're comfortable
10:01
Speaker 2: with so that we can help you fill the gaps
10:03
Speaker 2: because we do that. But we can't do that if
10:06
Speaker 2: we don't know what's happening, and otherwise we'll turn into
10:09
Speaker 2: a bunch of blaming people and ruin our culture.
10:12
Speaker 1: Yes, right, well, that that's I love. That is so intentional,
10:16
Speaker 1: Christie like, but you have to be mindful of that.
10:19
Speaker 1: Otherwise you could just have stories like this person doesn't
10:21
Speaker 1: really care, they're not engaged you, you're being intentionally right,
10:24
Speaker 1: Like you're actually going and asking the question, creating the
10:29
Speaker 1: experience or the opportunity for this person to share, yes,
10:32
Speaker 1: inviting them right to do that. I come from an
10:36
Speaker 1: unfortunately a nice guy background. I just recorded a couple
10:39
Speaker 1: of episodes of my other podcasts sharing those journeys. But
10:43
Speaker 1: talk about you know that that challenge for those people
10:46
Speaker 1: that think they're being kind, but they're not truly being kind.
10:50
Speaker 1: They're just being nice, trying to get along, just to
10:52
Speaker 1: get along and really to the opposite of what you're saying,
10:55
Speaker 1: not you know, trying to make excuses or not. They're
10:59
Speaker 1: just like, oh, this will just blowover, or just kind
11:01
Speaker 1: of they're not being again, not the authentic self. They're
11:03
Speaker 1: actually just trying trying to get along. And what have
11:06
Speaker 1: you seen in your.
11:10
Speaker 2: My own experience? What I see is when people are
11:13
Speaker 2: self forgetting like that and they're just like kind of
11:16
Speaker 2: like like, we talk about this in terms of, for example,
11:18
Speaker 2: working with clients and setting boundaries around what that relationship
11:22
Speaker 2: is going to look like. You know, She've heard the
11:24
Speaker 2: saying good fences make good neighbors, and so it's the
11:26
Speaker 2: same kind of thing. When we start out with a client,
11:29
Speaker 2: we encourage the project manager working directly with the client
11:32
Speaker 2: to establish ground rules with them, like if they're a
11:34
Speaker 2: West Coast client, for example, and we're in the East Coast,
11:37
Speaker 2: that we say, you know, our worked hands at five
11:39
Speaker 2: or whatever it happens to be. But if you have
11:41
Speaker 2: an emergency, absolutely we will help you with that in
11:45
Speaker 2: any case. But that's not a normal kind of thing.
11:47
Speaker 2: And what I learned years ago was that some my
11:50
Speaker 2: employees didn't know they could do that when I said something.
11:52
Speaker 2: Someone told me something once and I said, well, you know,
11:54
Speaker 2: you can say no, and her eyes got real big
11:56
Speaker 2: and she was like really. I was like, okay, wow,
11:59
Speaker 2: I have no taught people about boundaries, because you don't
12:03
Speaker 2: teach people about boundaries from the very beginning. What happens
12:06
Speaker 2: is they'll do the thing where it's like, okay, it's fine,
12:09
Speaker 2: it's fine, i'll do it. You know that tone of voice,
12:10
Speaker 2: it's really not fine, and then they do it, and
12:13
Speaker 2: then they build resentment. And it can be kind of
12:17
Speaker 2: just a general resentment, maybe not even misdirected at someone,
12:20
Speaker 2: but it becomes become resentful. Resentful people become passive aggressive, yes,
12:26
Speaker 2: And that's when you know, that's like nailing jello to
12:28
Speaker 2: a wall when somebody says something that's like, you know,
12:32
Speaker 2: like someone saying to me like, wow, I really like
12:34
Speaker 2: your glasses red. Who's red? You know, something like that,
12:37
Speaker 2: and you're like and they're like, well, no, it's just
12:39
Speaker 2: complimenting you. And you're like, wait, what So the passive
12:43
Speaker 2: aggressive you do not want anywhere in your relationship, your family.
12:45
Speaker 2: You want nothing to do with that. And it has
12:47
Speaker 2: to start all the way back at boundaries. You know,
12:50
Speaker 2: that's where kindness begins. And what I try and impress
12:54
Speaker 2: upon people the importance of kindness to yourself as well.
12:57
Speaker 2: And you are responsible for that, for setting your own
12:59
Speaker 2: boundaries for things that you're comfortable with and things you
13:02
Speaker 2: know up with you will not.
13:04
Speaker 1: Put you know, yeah, yeah, I mean there's so much
13:09
Speaker 1: there in the boundaries, and I think you're you're talking
13:11
Speaker 1: about It starts with like understanding who you are about
13:16
Speaker 1: yourself and your natural like you said, you know, we
13:20
Speaker 1: were talking earlier before we started recording. I I was
13:22
Speaker 1: talking about the nurture side of folks. I just worked
13:24
Speaker 1: with a couple recently, uh, two business owners, and one
13:28
Speaker 1: was very nurturing and just like you said, naturally actually
13:32
Speaker 1: just a harmonizer just naturally is a good thing. But
13:35
Speaker 1: she didn't speak up, and she felt really railroaded on
13:39
Speaker 1: this other person, and like you said, didn't create good boundaries.
13:43
Speaker 1: It wasn't able. And the other person wasn't aware either
13:45
Speaker 1: that they were railroading as much. And and so they
13:51
Speaker 1: they thought they were being kind in certain things. I
13:53
Speaker 1: don't think it was malicious, but I think there's just
13:55
Speaker 1: a lack of awareness on some of these things.
13:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, awareness piece cannot be overestimated in its importance. I
14:05
Speaker 2: think about when you talk about railroading. When I started learning,
14:08
Speaker 2: our organization uses the enneagram, which your listeners may or
14:12
Speaker 2: may not be familiar with. It's kind of all out
14:14
Speaker 2: there now, a lot of it. The reason I like
14:16
Speaker 2: the anagram is because it's about motivation for behavior as
14:19
Speaker 2: opposed to behavior, because a lot of behavior can look
14:21
Speaker 2: the same. But why are you behaving that way? Yes,
14:25
Speaker 2: when I started learning about my own type in the anagram,
14:29
Speaker 2: and I realized that to your point, that I can
14:31
Speaker 2: be very direct and I am a verbal processor and
14:34
Speaker 2: my process quickly, which doesn't make me smarter, it can
14:37
Speaker 2: make me impulsive actually and also annoying by the way,
14:40
Speaker 2: because I can end up, you know, talking really fast,
14:42
Speaker 2: getting very directive, and somebody who processes more slowly. Who's
14:47
Speaker 2: you know, whose brain I want to pick. I want
14:49
Speaker 2: to know what they know that I don't know. But
14:51
Speaker 2: if I'm so busy talking like that, they shut down,
14:55
Speaker 2: and that you never get the benefit of learning what
14:57
Speaker 2: they know or getting their idea or back or input
15:01
Speaker 2: or whatever. That is so learning that about yourself. And
15:04
Speaker 2: in my experience of the any game and probably most
15:07
Speaker 2: personality types that you can delve into, that once you
15:09
Speaker 2: learn about your own type and then you learn about
15:12
Speaker 2: other types because you want to learn how to work
15:15
Speaker 2: with them. That in my experience, has created the groundwork
15:20
Speaker 2: for radical empathy because it literally takes you out of
15:22
Speaker 2: your own head and you're like, oh, I see that
15:26
Speaker 2: person processes more slowly. I used to jokingly say I
15:29
Speaker 2: could ask my old accountant a question and then I
15:31
Speaker 2: could scroll through my newsfeed for a while while she
15:34
Speaker 2: came up with the answer. And it was like, but
15:37
Speaker 2: I wanted her, you know, I wanted to give her
15:38
Speaker 2: that time, And so I have to realize that I
15:40
Speaker 2: need to just be patient and stop talking and give
15:44
Speaker 2: them the time and the silence isn't awkward anymore, but
15:47
Speaker 2: when you first do it, it feels a little awkward,
15:49
Speaker 2: you know, But just allowing people to take the time
15:52
Speaker 2: to do.
15:52
Speaker 1: That, that is so. I mean, I'm so glad to
15:56
Speaker 1: hear you say that, Christy, because I think I've worked
15:59
Speaker 1: with business owners and I don't where they didn't see that,
16:03
Speaker 1: and then they build up these stories about other people,
16:06
Speaker 1: like you said, like this person is just you could
16:09
Speaker 1: you can come up with a story and it was,
16:10
Speaker 1: you know, And unfortunately we create stories to support our narrative,
16:16
Speaker 1: although that narrative may be completely false and wrong. Right,
16:19
Speaker 1: So it's like be challenged, right.
16:22
Speaker 2: Is false and wrong. Let's be clear. You know, the
16:24
Speaker 2: story that we tell ourselves in our head is not
16:27
Speaker 2: grounded in reality. Frequently, it's grounded in our experiences and
16:30
Speaker 2: all the different things that we know that has brought
16:32
Speaker 2: us here, but it's not necessarily and it's usually not
16:36
Speaker 2: a good story either, by the way. No, I mean
16:39
Speaker 2: that's just that you know, that default mode network in
16:41
Speaker 2: our brains that we've evolved to ties to our subconscious.
16:44
Speaker 2: If I'm doing it wrong, they're judging me things, aren't
16:47
Speaker 2: you know, all that kind of stuff and so of
16:49
Speaker 2: course we make up these horrible stories and don't don't
16:52
Speaker 2: serve us or the person we're working with well either.
16:56
Speaker 1: And again, if you don't know this about yourself, so
16:58
Speaker 1: you know I've used that, I think it's a great
17:01
Speaker 1: resource I use. Also, we've talked about the Five Voices tools.
17:04
Speaker 1: Another one that I've we've talked about in this podcast previously.
17:07
Speaker 1: I'm a connector voice in the Five Voices. Also, it's
17:09
Speaker 1: a nine in the India enneagram. But the idea of
17:14
Speaker 1: a connector is always trying to reach out connect with folks.
17:16
Speaker 1: So again, if people reject that, I take it if
17:19
Speaker 1: I'm not conscious, I'm not being aware of me or
17:21
Speaker 1: may not be personal. And so I have to really
17:24
Speaker 1: assess is this person truly is it really personal or
17:27
Speaker 1: they just having a bad day or they've got other
17:29
Speaker 1: things that they've got to deal with. And so it's
17:32
Speaker 1: taken a while of working on that understanding my mind.
17:36
Speaker 1: And again this is where I feel like working with
17:39
Speaker 1: a solid team like you have, Christy and training an
17:42
Speaker 1: organization that makes a big difference because that team is
17:45
Speaker 1: aware internally and external. Like you said, they look at
17:48
Speaker 1: the team members and they also look at their clients,
17:50
Speaker 1: because it's the same thing, right you're as you're working
17:52
Speaker 1: with a client, their response may be different than what
17:57
Speaker 1: you were expecting.
17:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that just being in you know,
18:00
Speaker 2: obviously we don't type our clients, but having that awareness
18:03
Speaker 2: around that kind of thing makes people aware of like, well,
18:07
Speaker 2: this is behavior. I don't know why they're doing it,
18:10
Speaker 2: you know. We I frequently say that we don't know
18:13
Speaker 2: the sandbox in which our clients are playing, but we'll
18:16
Speaker 2: jump in there and help them dig their way out.
18:18
Speaker 2: And so frequently, if someone is behaving in a certain way,
18:21
Speaker 2: we don't know why, and you just have to like
18:23
Speaker 2: be like, okay, well that's a thing and keep it there.
18:28
Speaker 2: In fact, there's something that I learned from a coach
18:31
Speaker 2: and that I share when I speak about when you
18:34
Speaker 2: get feedback or if you're in a difficult conversation, like
18:36
Speaker 2: if a client is being unkind to you for whatever reason,
18:39
Speaker 2: that if you can even kind of step back a
18:41
Speaker 2: little bit and imagine a bowl sitting in front of
18:44
Speaker 2: you and just whatever kind of bowl you on. I
18:46
Speaker 2: always picture like a copper bowl, and that everything they're
18:50
Speaker 2: saying is going in the bowl, and that way it's
18:52
Speaker 2: not going down inside of you, and it allows you
18:54
Speaker 2: to respond instead of react because you've given a gift
18:58
Speaker 2: of a little bit of distance.
19:00
Speaker 1: That's a great perspective. I like that. So just visualizing
19:02
Speaker 1: you're putting a bowl out in front of you, it's
19:04
Speaker 1: all going in there, and then you can decide, Okay,
19:06
Speaker 1: what what is relevant? What do I need to take
19:08
Speaker 1: out of that one? What do I need to leave
19:09
Speaker 1: there on the table?
19:11
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly what do I leave in and what do
19:13
Speaker 2: I take out and respond to?
19:15
Speaker 1: Now? That's that's because I think, especially in today's age, Christy,
19:18
Speaker 1: we get so much information and some of the stuff
19:21
Speaker 1: coming at us, and so it's like, hol, I don't
19:23
Speaker 1: just let this just open the door to everything that's
19:26
Speaker 1: coming in. Right.
19:27
Speaker 2: Yes, In fact, I used to years ago, was just
19:30
Speaker 2: saying about like you wouldn't let somebody come and pro
19:32
Speaker 2: trash all over your front yard, and yet you allowed
19:35
Speaker 2: trash to get into your head, whatever kind that could be.
19:39
Speaker 2: But all sorts of garbage gets into to your point,
19:41
Speaker 2: so much coming at us, I don't believe our brains
19:43
Speaker 2: were meant to process this much information this quickly, you know,
19:47
Speaker 2: which is why I meditate every day. I have got
19:50
Speaker 2: to start a day with stillness instead of picking up
19:53
Speaker 2: my phone and looking at a news feed or email
19:56
Speaker 2: or text messages, something that is going to direct my
19:58
Speaker 2: day other than the way I on it to go.
20:01
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that. Yeah, that's again we have a
20:05
Speaker 1: lot of crossover, Christy, because I do meditation as well.
20:07
Speaker 1: I think that's important for again being mindful and self aware.
20:12
Speaker 1: And I think once you're you kind of alluded to this.
20:14
Speaker 1: Once you're self aware, can you talk a little bit about,
20:18
Speaker 1: you know a little more about your vulnerability because this
20:22
Speaker 1: is something number one you might be aware. The next
20:24
Speaker 1: part I feel like is like, oh, can actually share
20:27
Speaker 1: this with anybody? How like, how do I do this
20:29
Speaker 1: so that I don't like, I don't look like an
20:31
Speaker 1: idiot or just something like somebody thinking less of me?
20:34
Speaker 2: Yes? You know, you know I was. I was somebody
20:38
Speaker 2: back in the day, probably fourteen fifteen years ago, I
20:40
Speaker 2: would have gone to the mattress saying that vulnerability is weakness.
20:44
Speaker 2: And then the magical Brene Brown did her twenty ten
20:46
Speaker 2: years and it changed my life. I watched it probably
20:50
Speaker 2: twenty times. It was just like wait, what what? And
20:53
Speaker 2: so then I started reading her books and started studying
20:55
Speaker 2: and learning and trying to practice vulnerability, which was hard
20:58
Speaker 2: for me. I don't think it comes naturally given the
21:00
Speaker 2: society in which we live, especially when you have all
21:03
Speaker 2: of these social media things with people presenting false funds
21:07
Speaker 2: who they actually are, So the real vulnerability is not
21:10
Speaker 2: a natural default for us. You have to work at that.
21:13
Speaker 2: So for me, over the years, I've worked at it,
21:15
Speaker 2: and I try to what I coach other people on
21:19
Speaker 2: is saying, especially if you work in an organization, you
21:22
Speaker 2: clearly have to decide how safe it is for you
21:25
Speaker 2: to be vulnerable and to whom you know. That's very important.
21:29
Speaker 2: If you are a leader in a large organization, you
21:32
Speaker 2: know you can establish that vulnerability out and down with
21:35
Speaker 2: your team, but maybe not up. You know, you have
21:37
Speaker 2: to determine that. If you own your own business or
21:39
Speaker 2: you're a leader in that way, you know you can
21:41
Speaker 2: lead with vulnerability. You get to set the tone for that.
21:44
Speaker 2: And I'm fortunate enough to be able to do that.
21:46
Speaker 2: And so the way that I do that is making
21:50
Speaker 2: sure that when I'm in a meeting, like especially with
21:52
Speaker 2: the leadership team or something that I don't have all
21:55
Speaker 2: the answers, that I make it clear that My job
21:59
Speaker 2: is to ask the right questions. I don't have the
22:02
Speaker 2: If I have the answers, well then what are they
22:04
Speaker 2: doing here?
22:05
Speaker 1: You know?
22:05
Speaker 2: And so collectively we can you know, I always say
22:08
Speaker 2: the sum is greater than the whole of its parts,
22:10
Speaker 2: and collectively we can come up with much better ideas
22:13
Speaker 2: than me just being a general and telling everybody what
22:14
Speaker 2: to do. That just doesn't appeal to me. It's easier
22:18
Speaker 2: to be a general to just be like, do do it.
22:20
Speaker 2: I don't care what you think it needs to be
22:21
Speaker 2: done by here, and if it's not, you're on a
22:23
Speaker 2: pip and then you're out of here. That's much easier
22:25
Speaker 2: than being like quiet and vulnerable and acknowledging that you
22:30
Speaker 2: don't have all the answers, acknowledging when you've made a mistake,
22:33
Speaker 2: being open to ideas that are different than yours, and
22:36
Speaker 2: maybe if something you've done has worked out not right,
22:39
Speaker 2: being willing to own that and say, yeah, that was
22:41
Speaker 2: that was on me. You know, in my experience in
22:44
Speaker 2: my organization, when I do that and I teach my
22:47
Speaker 2: leadership team to do it, then it filters out to
22:49
Speaker 2: everyone and people feel free to acknowledge, like, yeah, you
22:51
Speaker 2: know what I kind of slipped up on that one.
22:53
Speaker 2: And then nobody's mad at you about it. Either they're like, oh,
22:55
Speaker 2: that's nice, they acknowledged it, and how do we help
22:58
Speaker 2: fix the situation?
22:59
Speaker 1: That's such a that's so important, Christy, because you're right,
23:02
Speaker 1: it does come from the top down, I think as whatever,
23:05
Speaker 1: to whatever level people feel that they can share that
23:08
Speaker 1: vulnerability and to certain points like oh wow, I nope,
23:11
Speaker 1: I'm not going to share it. I don't know, And
23:12
Speaker 1: so it can be, like you said, if you're not
23:15
Speaker 1: conscious of that, it can be very destructive. I remember
23:20
Speaker 1: reading the book I think we might have talked about this,
23:22
Speaker 1: But the books start with Why by Simon Sinok's a
23:25
Speaker 1: great book. And in that book he gives a story
23:27
Speaker 1: about a woman getting on an airplane getting on an
23:29
Speaker 1: airplane and this woman's like yelling at the people to
23:32
Speaker 1: get in line and da da, and he's like, why
23:34
Speaker 1: are you doing this? He's like, well if I if
23:36
Speaker 1: I don't do this, I could lose my job. And
23:38
Speaker 1: there's just the fear in there and in the space
23:40
Speaker 1: like you said of like it goes all the way
23:42
Speaker 1: down and then you're you know, to the client experience
23:44
Speaker 1: and like what is going on here right right?
23:48
Speaker 2: You know, being human is hard, you know, I mean
23:52
Speaker 2: there's a lot going on, you know, and trying to
23:56
Speaker 2: understand your own motivations and moderate your own behavior much
24:00
Speaker 2: less understand why people you don't even know are behaving
24:03
Speaker 2: in a certain way and either responding or not. You know,
24:07
Speaker 2: it's it's it's a lot, you know, it's really a lot.
24:10
Speaker 2: And so so that's why I go back to self awareness,
24:12
Speaker 2: because the only thing you can control is you know,
24:15
Speaker 2: you're going to compare, That's something our brains are designed
24:18
Speaker 2: to do. But you control what you do with that comparison.
24:21
Speaker 2: You're going to see ugly behavior. You control what you
24:23
Speaker 2: do in response, if any to that ugly behavior. You know,
24:28
Speaker 2: that's the only thing you can do. And that's again
24:29
Speaker 2: where I say, you know, protecting yourself, being kind to yourself,
24:32
Speaker 2: and making sure you don't all have too much garbage.
24:35
Speaker 2: Like if someone just you know, mean to you getting
24:37
Speaker 2: on a plane or something, you can either brush that off,
24:40
Speaker 2: let it go and be like they're having a bad day,
24:41
Speaker 2: I don't even know me, it's got nothing to do
24:43
Speaker 2: with me, and then you enjoy your flight, or you
24:45
Speaker 2: can get all ticked off and have it ruin, you
24:48
Speaker 2: ruminate on it and be like, next one I see
24:50
Speaker 2: her getting off this plane, I'm going to give her
24:51
Speaker 2: what for well that you know that.
24:53
Speaker 1: Doesn't serve you well, right, And that's where we're I think, unfortunately,
24:58
Speaker 1: Like you said, Christy, you know, I know you know
25:01
Speaker 1: your I love that you guys. You guys are all
25:03
Speaker 1: about content, getting the messaging out there correctly, because I
25:06
Speaker 1: think there's a lot of unfortunately bad We we know
25:10
Speaker 1: how human mind works and how to trigger people in
25:12
Speaker 1: an unhealthy way. Yes, uh, very you know. I mean
25:16
Speaker 1: I see the headlines and things that they're constantly trying
25:18
Speaker 1: to trigger you, and it's definitely not to a place
25:20
Speaker 1: of kindness or empathy, right.
25:23
Speaker 2: Usually not because that doesn't get clicks, does it. It's
25:25
Speaker 2: not clickbait, it's not as it doesn't give you that
25:29
Speaker 2: kick to the amygdala that we all seem to want,
25:32
Speaker 2: you know, as humans. So yeah, I think, but again
25:35
Speaker 2: it's a choice. Yeah, And I always think about how
25:38
Speaker 2: do I want to be perceived? You know, what kind
25:42
Speaker 2: of imprint do I want to leave on people? And
25:44
Speaker 2: you know, you get on the phone with some times
25:46
Speaker 2: you have to call it and then you go through
25:47
Speaker 2: a different decision tree, which is so annoying, and then
25:50
Speaker 2: you tind to get to somebody and then they can't
25:52
Speaker 2: really help you. And I was on the phone the
25:53
Speaker 2: other day. What was I doing, I can't remember. I
25:56
Speaker 2: was trying to do something and the platform was taking
26:00
Speaker 2: me around and around and around in circles. So I
26:02
Speaker 2: was on the phone with this woman and she was
26:03
Speaker 2: trying to help me, and I was like, oh, my gosh,
26:05
Speaker 2: I'm so frustrated here, and I said, this is so
26:08
Speaker 2: not your fault. I can't I just can't even believe this.
26:11
Speaker 2: And so we're doing and finally I was like, oh,
26:12
Speaker 2: good lord, look what I did. And I was like,
26:14
Speaker 2: I was the one, and I said, thank you for
26:15
Speaker 2: your patient. She said, I think I would have been
26:16
Speaker 2: a lot more irritated than you were. And I was like, well,
26:19
Speaker 2: thank you, you know, for putting up with my irritation here,
26:22
Speaker 2: because I try to remember that when I have a
26:25
Speaker 2: justifiably bad experience, but it's not usually not that person's
26:29
Speaker 2: fault has happened, and then they get the brunt of it,
26:32
Speaker 2: and I always try and to remember they are having
26:35
Speaker 2: a lot of people give them a hard time. Like
26:37
Speaker 2: remember when all of everything happened with Delta Airlines with
26:40
Speaker 2: that old thing. So I had to call to do something.
26:43
Speaker 2: And so I called and the woman answered the phone
26:46
Speaker 2: and I said, hey, I bet you you're having a
26:47
Speaker 2: good week. And she was just like oh, And I said, well,
26:51
Speaker 2: I'm not angry. I don't have a problem. I just
26:53
Speaker 2: need some help. And she was like, oh, well, then
26:55
Speaker 2: I like you. And she stayed on the long with
26:57
Speaker 2: me for forty five minutes, figuring out some complex ticketing
26:59
Speaker 2: thing needed to do. But it was just starting with
27:02
Speaker 2: that little bit of humor because I thought she's probably
27:04
Speaker 2: been through it, right, I mean, because people are frustrated
27:08
Speaker 2: and they can't get anywhere, and they're calling her and
27:10
Speaker 2: she's the front line and she's getting it, you know, and.
27:13
Speaker 1: You just have some humanity, you know, yeah, the empathy
27:17
Speaker 1: and I think the awareness going and like you said,
27:21
Speaker 1: when you know that their tensions are high, are things
27:23
Speaker 1: of like you're already like planning to like de escalate,
27:26
Speaker 1: Like I know they're probably on edge, and so how
27:29
Speaker 1: can I come in there? You know with one of
27:33
Speaker 1: the things I tools I use in the in the
27:35
Speaker 1: in the Giant framework is called the Support Challenge matrix,
27:38
Speaker 1: So you've got to have both, right. You have to
27:40
Speaker 1: support and then there's a challenge you follow up with.
27:42
Speaker 1: Sometimes and again I think our natural voice order and
27:45
Speaker 1: when I heard you say, Christy is sometimes you may
27:47
Speaker 1: have in the past, you might have been just challenging
27:49
Speaker 1: people like here's the thing that needs to be done,
27:51
Speaker 1: here's the challenge, challenge which is very needed. But you
27:54
Speaker 1: have to, in my experience, lead with support first and
27:56
Speaker 1: then bring in the challenge and the question.
27:59
Speaker 2: Yes, I would agree with that. I think that that
28:02
Speaker 2: it was funny. I always laught because I'm like, nobody
28:04
Speaker 2: in my organization is scared of me at all. They
28:06
Speaker 2: don't do what I ask them to do. Part of
28:08
Speaker 2: the time it's because I'm not clear about it. And
28:10
Speaker 2: now on me back to your point. When you're talking
28:12
Speaker 2: about that, the clarity is very important and I try
28:14
Speaker 2: and now say have I been clear? But funny, I
28:17
Speaker 2: was talking with my EVP of business development. She's brilliant
28:20
Speaker 2: at sales just everything she does, and at one point
28:22
Speaker 2: I wanted her to build this sales playbook so when
28:25
Speaker 2: she hired another salesperson, she didn't have to go through
28:27
Speaker 2: the whole thing of like one on one teaching, she'd
28:29
Speaker 2: be like, here you go coming at me the questions,
28:31
Speaker 2: but that's it, and so she kinda wasn't doing it.
28:33
Speaker 2: We were sitting there talking. I've known her, she's been
28:35
Speaker 2: here for ten years, and I said, why aren't you
28:38
Speaker 2: just why aren't you doing it? And she goes, I
28:40
Speaker 2: don't know, and I said, just do it. I said,
28:42
Speaker 2: I'm not doing this to make your life difficult. I'm
28:44
Speaker 2: doing it because I don't want you to have a
28:45
Speaker 2: hard time training somebody again. And she was like I know.
28:48
Speaker 2: And then you know, she went and did it and
28:49
Speaker 2: it was great. She got it done. But sometimes just
28:51
Speaker 2: challenging someone was like, why aren't you doing it? Not meanly,
28:55
Speaker 2: but just like seriously right doing it because I wasn't
28:59
Speaker 2: doing it like mad at her. I was just like
29:01
Speaker 2: going on, why why don't you want to do this?
29:03
Speaker 1: You know?
29:04
Speaker 2: And it was funny when she was like, I don't know,
29:06
Speaker 2: I don't know why. You know.
29:09
Speaker 1: You know, I like your value of being curious, like
29:12
Speaker 1: what is it and not coming from an accused like
29:14
Speaker 1: you said, not an accusatory way, but I think it's
29:16
Speaker 1: important that's being kind asking those questions coming from a
29:21
Speaker 1: place of it's supportive but also like saying, hey, I
29:24
Speaker 1: know you could, You're capable of this, we need this
29:28
Speaker 1: and it's not a dispute. I'm not trying to throw
29:31
Speaker 1: shade on you, so to speak, but you know, just
29:34
Speaker 1: and I think there's an art to this of learning
29:37
Speaker 1: how to do this well, you know, Christy, you probably
29:40
Speaker 1: learned over time, like how to you know?
29:43
Speaker 2: Part of it too, I think, David is the longevity too.
29:46
Speaker 2: If you've had people that have worked with you for
29:48
Speaker 2: a while and they've seen here, they know that you
29:51
Speaker 2: mean what you say and you say what you mean,
29:53
Speaker 2: then then that that makes that kind of conversation easier
29:57
Speaker 2: because I know my intention is never I'm not like that,
30:00
Speaker 2: don't I just am not that way, and so they
30:02
Speaker 2: know that I'm not going to be like whatever.
30:04
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, that well, that to me is growing
30:08
Speaker 1: a successful business is that, you know, like with a
30:10
Speaker 1: WG content where you've been doing this for twenty years.
30:13
Speaker 1: Just I think sometimes business owners can be shortsighted and
30:16
Speaker 1: what you just said, building and having those long term
30:18
Speaker 1: relationships with your team members, it makes things go so
30:22
Speaker 1: much smoother if it's done well. Can be your productivity
30:25
Speaker 1: and what you can do and sometimes they think, well,
30:27
Speaker 1: I could just find somebody else that could do this. Well,
30:29
Speaker 1: yes you could, but it takes this takes time to
30:31
Speaker 1: build a relationship where the dispolsible society, where people like that.
30:36
Speaker 2: Just made me think of something that I say a lot.
30:38
Speaker 2: I'm glad you brought this up because I say frequently
30:40
Speaker 2: to my team that that positions are replaceable. People are not.
30:44
Speaker 2: So if somebody leaves and they're in a certain spot,
30:48
Speaker 2: we can probably find another project manager or things like that,
30:50
Speaker 2: but we can't find that person and the special magic
30:54
Speaker 2: that she brings to the situation. And so that's one
30:57
Speaker 2: of the core tenants of my leadership. And what I've
31:00
Speaker 2: learned over time is that a human need that we
31:03
Speaker 2: all share is the need to know that we matter. Yes,
31:06
Speaker 2: we matter, not the work we produce, you know, not
31:10
Speaker 2: how we look, but that you actually matter. Your hopes
31:14
Speaker 2: and dreams and your being matter. And that is a
31:17
Speaker 2: core tenant, like I said, of my leadership, and I
31:20
Speaker 2: think that that's why that's been very helpful in building
31:23
Speaker 2: the culture that we have.
31:24
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, yeah, I can't. I mean tell you, Christy,
31:27
Speaker 1: Like I was with another company for about nine years.
31:30
Speaker 1: It was a great company environmental consulting firm, and they
31:33
Speaker 1: had fed people there for twenty plus years since they started.
31:36
Speaker 1: And that consistency of people, it can it really allows
31:42
Speaker 1: you to scale and really creates stability in the organization.
31:46
Speaker 1: Where I've worked with another client where they they seem
31:50
Speaker 1: to have people coming in every six to twelve months,
31:54
Speaker 1: where people there's a rotation, so it's not like some
31:56
Speaker 1: people leave and the simpcome am in. And it's really
32:00
Speaker 1: challenging to kind of get up over this hump of like,
32:04
Speaker 1: well we can only get to this level because that's
32:06
Speaker 1: we just don't have it built the relational trust. We
32:09
Speaker 1: just haven't built the relations of that period. I mean,
32:11
Speaker 1: it's really hard, especially in today's world where we have
32:14
Speaker 1: what I call a distributed workforce where you might not
32:16
Speaker 1: even have people come into the office.
32:18
Speaker 2: You know, we're we're virtual and we always have been virtual,
32:22
Speaker 2: and yet we've still been able to build a very
32:26
Speaker 2: viv a tapestry, as I say, of a very excellent culture.
32:30
Speaker 2: But one of the things too that I say about
32:32
Speaker 2: having longevity and employees, and this is what the book
32:34
Speaker 2: I wrote is called Your Cultural balance Sheet, talking about
32:36
Speaker 2: a hidden cost is turnover to your point when you
32:38
Speaker 2: bring that up, that it's not just the There is
32:42
Speaker 2: absolutely an emotional impact when a person leaves. And I
32:45
Speaker 2: think frequently leaders, you know, a lot of us in
32:47
Speaker 2: the world like to think that we are rational beings
32:49
Speaker 2: who occasionally have feelings, but we're actually feeling people who
32:52
Speaker 2: occasionally think right, and then we can rationalize all the
32:55
Speaker 2: things we do. But it's actually feeling that's driving it.
32:57
Speaker 2: So when a person leaves, there's a people are left,
33:00
Speaker 2: or they're surprised, or they might be scared, or they
33:03
Speaker 2: might be worried. You know, you never know what's going on,
33:05
Speaker 2: but there's definitely an emotion around it. And on top
33:08
Speaker 2: of the emotion is it's like having I heard this.
33:10
Speaker 2: I think it's like a proverb of some company, which
33:13
Speaker 2: that when someone leaves your business, it's like an entire
33:17
Speaker 2: library has just burned down because all of the institutional
33:21
Speaker 2: knowledge and the years and the relationships and all the
33:24
Speaker 2: things that they had just walked out your door. Yep,
33:27
Speaker 2: that's devastating to a business where it should be. And
33:30
Speaker 2: if it's not, maybe you might want to take a
33:32
Speaker 2: look at that because that's a big deal.
33:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, it's it's so true. And I and I
33:40
Speaker 1: and what you said the example of of with your
33:43
Speaker 1: your your sales leader, you know, just the ability to
33:46
Speaker 1: have the conversation having developed the relationship over ten years
33:50
Speaker 1: and you really get at the root of things very
33:53
Speaker 1: quickly in in a very kind way, versus it could
33:57
Speaker 1: take you know, that could take a lot longer if
33:58
Speaker 1: they'd just been there six month or a year of like, Okay,
34:01
Speaker 1: I'm still figuring out where you're aving this process. You
34:04
Speaker 1: know what you don't know?
34:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think we were really lucky in
34:08
Speaker 2: that in that a lot of our employees come from
34:11
Speaker 2: referrals or they've been a contractor with us for a
34:14
Speaker 2: period of time and then they join us, so they
34:16
Speaker 2: have a working knowledge kind of of and how we work.
34:20
Speaker 2: So that's that's also very helpful. And then when new
34:24
Speaker 2: people come in, the thing that they always say, because
34:26
Speaker 2: we only we have thirty four people, so I meet
34:29
Speaker 2: with everybody at some point when they join, just to
34:31
Speaker 2: get to know them and talk a little bit. And
34:33
Speaker 2: to a person, they have all said, I can't believe
34:35
Speaker 2: how kind everybody is. I thought that that was just
34:37
Speaker 2: a thing you just said it. But it's like the
34:39
Speaker 2: genuine kindness with which I've been greeted and that people
34:43
Speaker 2: have helped me to acclimate to make sure I have
34:46
Speaker 2: what I need and all of that kind of thing
34:48
Speaker 2: and that I'm really proud of and that, as I
34:50
Speaker 2: always say to my team, I cast the vision, but
34:52
Speaker 2: you guys live it out every day, it wouldn't be
34:56
Speaker 2: what it is. So you know, we want best places
34:58
Speaker 2: to work here in town. And my team was congratulating me,
35:02
Speaker 2: and I'm like, why are you congratulating me? You guys
35:04
Speaker 2: are the ones who make it the best place to work,
35:06
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? Again, I cast the vision
35:08
Speaker 2: and make sure that that I always have my eye
35:11
Speaker 2: on the culture in terms of decisions that I make,
35:13
Speaker 2: But they're the ones who live it out every day
35:15
Speaker 2: and bring their best sells to work. That makes it well.
35:18
Speaker 1: I love that, Christy well, I think, and that's a
35:20
Speaker 1: well run organization. And as people again going to the
35:25
Speaker 1: focus of we're talking about kindness on the episode here,
35:28
Speaker 1: of of getting people in their right positions too, and
35:31
Speaker 1: like understanding like hey, right, this is what you do
35:34
Speaker 1: best in helping them and then when they're not doing
35:37
Speaker 1: those things that are not in their best interests, like
35:39
Speaker 1: how do we help each other, Like you said earlier,
35:40
Speaker 1: how do we help each other in the team? Yeah,
35:43
Speaker 1: that creating that work. We're looking after each other.
35:46
Speaker 2: Well and getting the people like for us, we usually
35:49
Speaker 2: tend to get the right people on the bus and
35:51
Speaker 2: sometimes we need to shuffle them around in the future
35:53
Speaker 2: a different seat because we hire a lot for culture.
35:56
Speaker 2: I mean we really do and then and not so
35:59
Speaker 2: much with the actual writing that those people are brilliant writers,
36:02
Speaker 2: but they have to be a cultural fit as well.
36:05
Speaker 2: But you know, we have PMS, we have people that
36:06
Speaker 2: work in HR, we have marketing, we have different different
36:08
Speaker 2: departments of people that do things and trying to really
36:11
Speaker 2: understand someone's zone of genius and setting them up for
36:15
Speaker 2: success by enabling them to do things that are in
36:17
Speaker 2: their zone of genius. And I think that's a mark
36:20
Speaker 2: of leadership is being willing to do that as opposed
36:22
Speaker 2: to just being like, well, you know, we hired you
36:24
Speaker 2: to do this, it's not working. See you. It's like, yeah,
36:27
Speaker 2: you're really a fit for this company. And I know
36:29
Speaker 2: you have a zone of genius. I know you do.
36:31
Speaker 2: Everybody does. We just defined it.
36:34
Speaker 1: Hmm, Yeah, it's both. I had an executive recruiter on
36:38
Speaker 1: the podcast a few weeks ago, and we were talking
36:40
Speaker 1: about that, Christy of like, you you want to make
36:43
Speaker 1: sure that that's a cultural fit, because there's nothing worse
36:45
Speaker 1: than having somebody technically like, oh, they fit the bill,
36:48
Speaker 1: but then they're like, you know, six months, eight months,
36:51
Speaker 1: twelve months down the line, like it's just not a
36:52
Speaker 1: good fit. Yeah, And that's a tough one. That's a
36:55
Speaker 1: real We are.
36:56
Speaker 2: Really fortunate in that I can tell you that I
36:58
Speaker 2: can count on one hand the number of people who
37:00
Speaker 2: have left the company every time we've continued to grow,
37:03
Speaker 2: because we're obviously a lot smaller. But there have been
37:07
Speaker 2: a couple of people that have had to had to
37:09
Speaker 2: leave and they weren't they really weren't cultural fits. And
37:14
Speaker 2: you know, sometimes as the leader, when you know somebody
37:17
Speaker 2: isn't a fit, and this was on me. I was
37:20
Speaker 2: not clear enough in my direction that this person needs
37:23
Speaker 2: to go. I knew it was going to be a problem,
37:25
Speaker 2: and then it blew up and became a problem where
37:28
Speaker 2: it was like, all right, that's it, and I thought.
37:31
Speaker 1: That's a shame.
37:31
Speaker 2: I should have been more clear in saying all right,
37:34
Speaker 2: I want you to start like saying Okay, look, this
37:36
Speaker 2: is the behavior we're seeing. This is what we can't have.
37:38
Speaker 2: We need to see an improvement and then mark it
37:40
Speaker 2: down and then exit, you know, that kind of thing. Instead,
37:44
Speaker 2: it became an unpleasant situation with her manager. But but again,
37:48
Speaker 2: as a leader, I think it's important to see that
37:50
Speaker 2: and clear eyed about it. You know, it's that the
37:54
Speaker 2: adage of higher, slow, fire fast, and that's often painful
37:59
Speaker 2: for leaders to do. I've seen that cause more damage
38:02
Speaker 2: in organizations than a lot of things.
38:04
Speaker 1: I've been there. Yeah, and that's not being kind. You're like, oh,
38:06
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to be I want to figure it out,
38:09
Speaker 1: if you know, if you really know, it's like, why
38:12
Speaker 1: are we prolonging this? You know that's painful. And as
38:18
Speaker 1: you were talking to the other thing again understanding ourselves,
38:21
Speaker 1: here's the thing that people if you're not aware and
38:24
Speaker 1: as you're listening to this, I think people may present
38:27
Speaker 1: a certain way they think this is accepted right, and
38:30
Speaker 1: I'm thinking this is the right way I should be
38:32
Speaker 1: and it's not their authentic self and they can only
38:34
Speaker 1: keep that up for so long.
38:35
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. In fact, we were just talking about this
38:39
Speaker 2: the other day in a team meeting, and my HR
38:41
Speaker 2: coordinator was saying, one of the things that is initiative
38:44
Speaker 2: and initiative of ours is how can we do something
38:46
Speaker 2: ten percent better? So you don't have to be change everything,
38:49
Speaker 2: just what can you do ten percent better? And she
38:51
Speaker 2: was talking about recruiting, and she said that what she's
38:55
Speaker 2: done is she's changed the interview from half an hour
38:58
Speaker 2: and she now allows I think she allows forty five minutes.
39:01
Speaker 2: And she said, now if it ends after thirty minutes,
39:03
Speaker 2: that's fine, but I realize that with that extra fifteen minutes,
39:05
Speaker 2: I can dig in a little more and really get
39:07
Speaker 2: a better feel for whether or not this person is
39:10
Speaker 2: a fit. And largely she's looking for a lot of
39:11
Speaker 2: contractors too, because we have the group of contractors that
39:14
Speaker 2: we work upwards of one hundred of them, and so
39:17
Speaker 2: we want them to be a fit too, especially if
39:18
Speaker 2: we're going to be putting them in front of our clients.
39:20
Speaker 2: We want to make sure that they are furthering our mission,
39:23
Speaker 2: which is building relationships one word at a time. So
39:26
Speaker 2: we want to make sure that they understand that and
39:27
Speaker 2: that they're committed to our values and our mission as well.
39:30
Speaker 2: And so just looking at like you said, getting kind
39:33
Speaker 2: of digging under the hood a little bit and making
39:35
Speaker 2: sure that this isn't just play acting.
39:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think especially in the recruiting space, like
39:41
Speaker 1: you say, Christy, because people want the job and so like,
39:43
Speaker 1: how can I just be like that? But then, like
39:45
Speaker 1: you said, really getting at it, is this truly who
39:47
Speaker 1: you are asking some more probing questions or is it
39:50
Speaker 1: you're just trying to present this way because that's what
39:52
Speaker 1: you think we want.
39:54
Speaker 2: I'm sure you're you and your audience have heard. The
39:55
Speaker 2: thing that sometimes the best sales sales called that a
40:00
Speaker 2: prospective employee has is the one they have selling themselves,
40:04
Speaker 2: like in the interview that's it, and then then the
40:05
Speaker 2: rest of the time they're like they like are dismal
40:08
Speaker 2: at selling. Like for example, if you're interviewing for sales
40:11
Speaker 2: and they're great, it's selling themselves, and then you're like,
40:13
Speaker 2: why aren't they producing anything? It's like, oh, you're really
40:16
Speaker 2: not good at that. You just sold me on you
40:18
Speaker 2: that was it right?
40:20
Speaker 1: Right? And again it goes back again if you're authentic
40:23
Speaker 1: and you know this self and they think, well what
40:24
Speaker 1: about this or how have you done this? I always
40:26
Speaker 1: like to ask the questions of where they face challenges
40:28
Speaker 1: or how they've addressed some of these things because they said, well,
40:31
Speaker 1: I really haven't had any problems, really challenges, really nothing,
40:35
Speaker 1: no good.
40:37
Speaker 2: A lot same And I think that the challenges are
40:40
Speaker 2: your growth edge. You. Going back to speaking about vulnerability,
40:43
Speaker 2: I think that never ends. You know, you you keep
40:46
Speaker 2: working at it, and you have to you have to
40:48
Speaker 2: have I frequently say you have to have attention, well
40:51
Speaker 2: intention and attention towards your intentions and so being vulnerable,
40:55
Speaker 2: it's really easy to close back up and not do that.
40:57
Speaker 2: You have to keep working at it. Right, any any
41:02
Speaker 2: self awareness personal development skill, it isn't like one and done, like,
41:05
Speaker 2: oh good now I'm self aware. I can just move on,
41:08
Speaker 2: yes badly. You know it's a constant it's constant work, right.
41:13
Speaker 1: Yes, it's ongoing. Man, Chrissy, there's so many good things
41:16
Speaker 1: in here. I will you're tell me a little bit.
41:18
Speaker 1: I know we're getting close to that end of the episode,
41:20
Speaker 1: but I know some of the things initiatives that you've
41:22
Speaker 1: been doing, You've been doing this Mastermind group that you've
41:25
Speaker 1: been starting, and doing just some other cool things that
41:27
Speaker 1: you're creating for folks to be a part of. So
41:29
Speaker 1: we just share a little bit about that.
41:31
Speaker 2: Well, my own personal audacious goal, which I try to
41:35
Speaker 2: get used to saying, is to reinvent the way people
41:37
Speaker 2: look at the world of work, because we spend so
41:40
Speaker 2: much time there. I think there should be joy in
41:42
Speaker 2: that and that sense of knowing that you matter, that
41:45
Speaker 2: you're doing meaningful work, that you're making contribution. And I
41:47
Speaker 2: always talk about life work balance as opposed to work
41:50
Speaker 2: life balance, and I mean that. I think it's absurd
41:52
Speaker 2: for grown adults who can control themselves to have to
41:55
Speaker 2: ask permission to live their life, you know, to go vote,
41:57
Speaker 2: or to go pick up a kid from school, or
41:59
Speaker 2: go to a doctor apointment. It's your time, you do
42:01
Speaker 2: what you want. I'm not gonna I'm not going to
42:03
Speaker 2: get into that. So, oh my gosh, the question just
42:08
Speaker 2: flew right out of my head.
42:09
Speaker 1: It's just what you're doing something, you're doing some work
42:10
Speaker 1: with the Mastermind group, you're getting helped.
42:13
Speaker 2: Sorry, I'm sorry. Like I got derailed myself to that end.
42:16
Speaker 2: I wrote a book called Your Cultural Balance Sheet, which
42:19
Speaker 2: will be published in January. And it was because I
42:22
Speaker 2: was having dinner with some other business owner friends and
42:24
Speaker 2: we were talking. They had had successful exits, meaning talking
42:26
Speaker 2: about EBITDA, which is the value of your business, and
42:28
Speaker 2: a multiples, all these kind of things. And I said,
42:31
Speaker 2: you know, it's almost like I said, of course I
42:33
Speaker 2: look at my financials. Of course I do, I said,
42:35
Speaker 2: but it's it's almost like I look through my business
42:37
Speaker 2: to the lens of a cultural balance sheet. And so
42:39
Speaker 2: one of my friends looked at me and he's like, well,
42:40
Speaker 2: there's your book, and I was like, hey, yeah. So
42:43
Speaker 2: I started thinking about that and thinking about you know,
42:46
Speaker 2: what I wanted to do is try to help people
42:48
Speaker 2: be more effective leaders. You know that when you're building
42:51
Speaker 2: an organization, you have the privilege of feeding into the
42:54
Speaker 2: lives of the people that work with you. And so
42:57
Speaker 2: I started thinking bigger about that, like, okay, I want
42:59
Speaker 2: to go and speak about that, and I want to
43:00
Speaker 2: share that with people. And my driver has never really
43:04
Speaker 2: been money. But you know, as many people say, do
43:06
Speaker 2: what you love and the money will come. So my
43:08
Speaker 2: driver for that is really to help make the world
43:10
Speaker 2: a better place. That if we become more self aware,
43:13
Speaker 2: then we become kinder people, we become more empathetic, and
43:17
Speaker 2: so looking at you know, the world of work as
43:20
Speaker 2: an entry point for that, and then to that end,
43:25
Speaker 2: I'm in the a beta test with the mastermind that
43:27
Speaker 2: we don't really know what we're going to call it yet,
43:29
Speaker 2: getting people together from across the country from right now
43:32
Speaker 2: in healthcare, which is the space we work, all from
43:34
Speaker 2: different organizations, so that they can speak freely about whatever
43:38
Speaker 2: is happening in their lives. And the intention is to
43:41
Speaker 2: build a program that would serve people hopefully across all industries,
43:45
Speaker 2: probably at a manager level that have four or five
43:48
Speaker 2: direct reports, get them when they don't have access to
43:51
Speaker 2: a lot of leadership training, they probably don't have peer
43:53
Speaker 2: groups at that point, and help them really develop, focus
43:58
Speaker 2: on personal develop but on self awareness and really learn
44:03
Speaker 2: to access your feelings first, to lead with your feeling
44:07
Speaker 2: and in that way we help people become better people.
44:10
Speaker 2: We make the world a better place, and hopefully we
44:12
Speaker 2: reinvent the way people look at the world of work.
44:15
Speaker 1: I love it. I mean that's I mean, you're you're
44:17
Speaker 1: speaking to my mission too. It strough your business, you know,
44:20
Speaker 1: and we're on the same mission, Christy, to reach people
44:23
Speaker 1: where they're at. Yes, you know you particularly right now
44:27
Speaker 1: in the medical field. I've been in the environmental consulting
44:30
Speaker 1: world for years. I think there's so many people like,
44:35
Speaker 1: how do we help them take all this knowledge us
44:38
Speaker 1: out there and apply it to their lives a fact,
44:42
Speaker 1: like you said, effectively. I think that's the challenge right now.
44:44
Speaker 1: We've got so much information. It's about how do I
44:46
Speaker 1: actually take this information, this tool or resource and actually
44:49
Speaker 1: apply it to my life?
44:51
Speaker 2: And I think you know that that's where where most
44:54
Speaker 2: initiatives fail, whether it's in business or personal, is in
44:56
Speaker 2: the action step. Right with all these grand ideas. You
44:59
Speaker 2: know how many times, well maybe not you, but every
45:01
Speaker 2: woman who's listening has gone on a diet January or
45:04
Speaker 2: two and then like, Okay, this is it. I'm doing
45:07
Speaker 2: it now, and then you know, stick with it. You
45:09
Speaker 2: do these very extreme things, and the action breaks down
45:14
Speaker 2: instead of you know, for me at my ripe old age,
45:16
Speaker 2: I figured out like it's about being kind to myself
45:18
Speaker 2: and setting reasonable, reasonable goals, you know, every thirty days,
45:22
Speaker 2: saying Okay, I'm going to do this particular meditation for
45:24
Speaker 2: the next thirty days, and then we evaluate at the
45:27
Speaker 2: end of that be like you know, I really liked that,
45:28
Speaker 2: so maybe I'll pick it up one I'm going to
45:30
Speaker 2: do it again for thirty days, so that I've got
45:32
Speaker 2: a little measurable chunk of things that isn't overwhelming to me,
45:35
Speaker 2: where like I have to change my entire life so
45:37
Speaker 2: I can do this one thing.
45:39
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I call I call that. I have a
45:42
Speaker 1: framework that I used called the Impossible Game where it's
45:45
Speaker 1: like this big audacious goal like you want to have, right,
45:47
Speaker 1: but then it's like reverse engineering it, like you said it, like,
45:50
Speaker 1: what is it that on this this monthly, weekly, daily
45:53
Speaker 1: level that I do incrementally because we know over time
45:57
Speaker 1: that's what gets you there. Yes, we're just jumped there,
46:00
Speaker 1: but it's all these things over time that get us there.
46:03
Speaker 1: And so being mindful of that, like you said, Christy, yeah,
46:07
Speaker 1: find yourself, you can actually get there.
46:09
Speaker 2: There's a book that I read and it is called
46:12
Speaker 2: it's one of the best books I've ever read, and
46:14
Speaker 2: it's called How Will You Measure Your Life? And the
46:19
Speaker 2: author's last name is Christensen, I believe, and it's a
46:22
Speaker 2: wonderful book. He was a professor at Harvard Business School,
46:24
Speaker 2: and he had gone there too, and he saw all
46:26
Speaker 2: these high performing people. Right, you graduate from HBS, you
46:29
Speaker 2: pretty much got the oyster, right, And so what he
46:33
Speaker 2: noticed in his own life was when he graduated five
46:36
Speaker 2: year and everybody was still happy. By ten years, there
46:39
Speaker 2: were a lot of rumblings. People weren't happy. By the
46:41
Speaker 2: time you got to twenty years, it was like they
46:43
Speaker 2: were miserable. A lot of them were divorced, they had
46:45
Speaker 2: addiction issues, or they hated their jobs, and then they're
46:47
Speaker 2: tied to them because they've got the you know, the
46:49
Speaker 2: two homes, the kids in private schools, the fancy cars,
46:52
Speaker 2: and you can't get away from it. And his whole point,
46:54
Speaker 2: kind of to your point of incremental, was saying, look
46:57
Speaker 2: at your life now while you are that high forming person,
47:01
Speaker 2: that student. And I tell this to my son who's
47:03
Speaker 2: at Georgetown Law School, and I've taught this to him.
47:05
Speaker 2: It's like, think about what you want your life to
47:07
Speaker 2: look like when you're forty. When I say that to
47:09
Speaker 2: young people that I meet in their twenties, most of
47:12
Speaker 2: them their eyes kind of get big and they're like, oh,
47:14
Speaker 2: my gosh, I never thought about that. And I'm like,
47:16
Speaker 2: I know, because your head's down, you're doing the hard
47:17
Speaker 2: work right now. But if you don't do that, somebody
47:20
Speaker 2: else will plan that for you, and it won't be
47:22
Speaker 2: for the benefit. So if nobody taught me that I
47:25
Speaker 2: wish somebody would have when I was showing, like what
47:27
Speaker 2: do I want it to look like? Thirty five, forty five,
47:30
Speaker 2: fifty five?
47:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, I ask those questions.
47:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, and again to your point, it's not it's not
47:35
Speaker 2: like you have to go do something major right now.
47:37
Speaker 2: It's those little teeny behaviors that you start when you're
47:40
Speaker 2: in your twenties while you're laying the track for the
47:42
Speaker 2: rest of your life, that allow you to then have
47:43
Speaker 2: the life that you want later. And I think it's
47:45
Speaker 2: the same with any goal.
47:46
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that, Christy. It has been so great
47:49
Speaker 1: having you on the podcast. I love all our conversation.
47:52
Speaker 1: I think we definitely have to have you come back.
47:55
Speaker 2: I would love to come back once the book. I'll
47:56
Speaker 2: send you a book we're es published, and then hopefully
47:58
Speaker 2: I can go back and we can dig into that
47:59
Speaker 2: all more.
48:00
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, what's the best way for people to find
48:02
Speaker 1: you connect with WG Content and whatnot. Yeah, they can
48:05
Speaker 1: go to.
48:06
Speaker 2: WG content dot com. They can find me. I'm right
48:08
Speaker 2: on the homepage with a video about who we are,
48:10
Speaker 2: why we do what we do, and then also just
48:12
Speaker 2: you know, the our team page also on LinkedIn. I'm
48:15
Speaker 2: just Christi Pretzinger on LinkedIn and you can find me
48:18
Speaker 2: there and on LinkedIn we post the podcast that I've
48:20
Speaker 2: been on, so obviously this one will be posting once
48:22
Speaker 2: it's live. I think we're a little behind in terms
48:24
Speaker 2: of getting them up there because I've done quite a few.
48:26
Speaker 1: So yeah, i'mslutely excited. I'm super excited for the book,
48:30
Speaker 1: so you definitely need to come back when you talk
48:32
Speaker 1: about the book when that's published. This has just been
48:34
Speaker 1: a refreshing conversation and I totally appreciate you coming on
48:37
Speaker 1: into sharing your your.
48:38
Speaker 2: Especially having me. I've really enjoyed our conversation. I think
48:41
Speaker 2: we're very like minded. That's fun.
48:43
Speaker 1: Absolutely well, thanks everybody for listening to the Business Roundtable podcast.
48:47
Speaker 1: Until next time, take care, everybody be well. Thanks