Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to the gorgeous Si Hart & Frazer Gregory about their choice of The Seeds of Death (4/6)

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Talks to the gorgeous Si Hart & Frazer Gregory about their choice of The Seeds of Death (4/6) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  Hamster with a blunt. Pen knife for doing quicker.
• 0:39
  Quicker. Quicker.
• 0:40
  Welcome back to a hamster with a blunt pen knife.
• 0:42
  The Doctor Who commentary podcast.
• 0:45
  Hello, we're back for episode four of The Seats of Death.
• 0:51
  And I have a question for you both.
• 0:54
  I should say that I'm obviously because I'm here.
• 0:57
  Joe's here because it wouldn't be a hamster with a blunt
• 1:00
  penknife without Joe. Hello, Joe.
• 1:02
  Oh yes, I'm here. And of course, Frazer's here as
• 1:06
  well. Stop it.
• 1:11
  Frazer is trying to tell us he's on holiday this week, but this
• 1:13
  is not true. He's not going away with that.
• 1:19
  This is all prerecorded inserts. Off to Tenerife for a week and
• 1:23
  left us to it. To grow his sideburns.
• 1:29
  So anyway, one of the things I was thinking about with the
• 1:32
  reputation of this story is that I have this theory that it's a
• 1:38
  bit undervalued by Doctor Who fans because it's been a it's
• 1:43
  the Patrick Trampton story that's been available to
• 1:46
  everyone for the longest time. So this was one of the very
• 1:51
  earliest BBC video releases. I think it was #4 released
• 1:56
  number four or five. So it was released, I think in
• 2:00
  1985. So it's been available for a
• 2:06
  very, very long time. I'm not nearly 40 years.
• 2:10
  So I I often wonder whether it just kind of gets forgotten
• 2:15
  about because we take it for granted that.
• 2:18
  Because everyone's been able to watch it for such a long time
• 2:21
  that its reputation sort of dwindles a little bit.
• 2:25
  Maybe because of that. I I do I I agree with you.
• 2:30
  I think there is something about longevity and availability means
• 2:35
  that. Yeah like it's it's like things
• 2:36
  like death to the Daleks and spirits and things like that
• 2:39
  that came out very early. Revenge and decide men.
• 2:43
  But I remember getting that VHSI remember not being able to make
• 2:46
  head nor bloody. One, the quality of it was
• 2:48
  terrible. Two, it was just so long as a
• 2:51
  6th passer as one story. And weirdly, I didn't have that
• 2:56
  same problem with Tanzhuang Chiang that I I used to really
• 3:00
  enjoy the length of that. But with this one, because I
• 3:02
  think there is a lot of repetitive motion in this
• 3:05
  without those sort of breaks and leading up to those
• 3:08
  cliffhangers. And some of those cliffhangers
• 3:10
  are excellent. I think it's a bit of a chore.
• 3:13
  It was when it came out on DVD, polished up, and that's when I
• 3:17
  really saw the strength of this and the strength of the
• 3:20
  direction. So yeah, I think, I think it was
• 3:23
  its second iteration where it won me over.
• 3:26
  But you, Fraser. I can see that point of view,
• 3:31
  but I think there's also a lot to be said for the nostalgia
• 3:34
  value. So I think there are, you know,
• 3:37
  a lot of people who will think the opposite, who love this
• 3:39
  story a little bit more because it is.
• 3:42
  One that they got. First of all it's not like me
• 3:45
  with the Dominators, you know. And the Dominators was one of
• 3:48
  the, and I know it's it's unusual for me to mention this,
• 3:52
  but the Dominators was one of the first ones I got on VHS.
• 3:56
  So that's always got that sort of nostalgia feeling behind it
• 4:01
  for me. And so I imagine that there's
• 4:03
  there is a lot of people out there who will think, oh I love
• 4:05
  the Seeds of Death because it's the first one I got, because I
• 4:08
  played it at death, because I haven't got any other Troutans.
• 4:11
  Because there weren't any available.
• 4:13
  There was only, you know, a handful.
• 4:15
  So this is one that, you know, I wore the VHSI, wore the little
• 4:18
  tape out of watching over and over again.
• 4:20
  So there will be people out there that, you know, adore the
• 4:23
  story for that reason as well. And but yeah, there is something
• 4:27
  you know, a little bit more exciting about, you know, coming
• 4:30
  into one that you haven't seen before.
• 4:31
  You know, when they we get an animation, a new animation
• 4:35
  coming out, it's a chance to see this one, you know, we've only
• 4:39
  had. The the recons of the telly
• 4:42
  snaps beforehand, so now we get a chance to enjoy it.
• 4:45
  So I think there is there is legs in that but I think
• 4:48
  certainly an element of the other side as well.
• 4:51
  Bringing out those animations, that's really interesting
• 4:54
  because I think like other stuff like either of the Daleks and so
• 4:56
  that I think of brilliant animations, they'll never.
• 5:00
  Have that nostalgic place in my heart.
• 5:03
  That's something like Death to the Daleks when I watched when I
• 5:05
  was seven years old. Again and again and again do.
• 5:08
  Yeah, I know that Evil of the Daleks is a way better story
• 5:12
  than Death to the Daleks, but it'll never have that same place
• 5:15
  in my affection. Yeah, absolutely.
• 5:18
  I mean Evil of the Daleks. It's a great animation, it's a
• 5:20
  great story. There's a lot of, lot of enjoy
• 5:22
  of it. But Power of the Daleks was one
• 5:25
  I had on audio cassette. That's why I used to listen to
• 5:28
  Power of the Daleks in my bedroom.
• 5:30
  And when I moved out in me, you know, had me and you know, we
• 5:34
  get a blaster in the in the kitchen.
• 5:38
  Oh, yes, you know, so that's one that I listened to quite a few
• 5:42
  times. And then when you get the
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  animation coming in on top of the audio, that just adds an
• 5:46
  extra extra dimension. Whereas, you know, evil is got
• 5:50
  all that work to do. Evil's got to, you know, winners
• 5:53
  over with everything where I was, you know, the power
• 5:56
  animations, you know, the work's virtually done.
• 5:59
  It's just adding moving pictures to sound.
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  It suddenly makes a lot of sense.
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  You know, It's not that the Dominators is any good, it's
• 6:06
  just it's ingrained into your childhood.
• 6:08
  That's the truth of the matter. Sorry, Joe, you I think the
• 6:11
  Wi-Fi broke there. You said something that the
• 6:13
  Dominator has not been good. I want to check your connection
• 6:16
  because we can't have that happen and all this.
• 6:18
  I'll spend 3 1/2 hours discussing why it's so
• 6:21
  fantastic. That's all over you.
• 6:22
  All right. I do acknowledge it is good.
• 6:25
  But it's true. Those those early BBC video, I
• 6:30
  have a love for Revenge of the Cybermen, simply because it was
• 6:35
  the only Tom Baker story I had for for a long time and it was
• 6:40
  the only one I'd seen for a long time.
• 6:43
  And it's difficult to get over that.
• 6:45
  And objectively it's not a great story.
• 6:48
  It's very well directed bad story, but it's not a great
• 6:52
  story. But.
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  Because I know it inside out and I watch that video so many
• 6:56
  times, you can't help but love it.
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  So if I say, does that give you tingles?
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  Well, of course. Well, look, I mean, we better
• 7:12
  discuss some of this into the episode.
• 7:14
  Otherwise what I had talk about well.
• 7:17
  When's that ever stopped us? Well, who's going to count us?
• 7:23
  In. Well, I suppose I will count us
• 7:25
  in in 54321. Let's go.
• 7:32
  Fraser bought something very interesting up in part one about
• 7:37
  Patrick Trout and being away in part 4.
• 7:41
  Now we did flog the joke to death that Fraser weren't going
• 7:43
  to be around in Part 4, but he is actually here.
• 7:47
  You two let Wouldn't let us go with that joke.
• 7:49
  I would have been a great joke. I know we always tramp all over
• 7:53
  your jokes or someone out the room, but is it a problem?
• 8:00
  Isn't it a problem because Fraser says it's called Doctor
• 8:02
  Who and so the Doctor should really be in it.
• 8:07
  So is this story effective because he's not in this
• 8:08
  episode? No, I don't think it is actually
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  because I think the other two regulars are so brilliant that
• 8:18
  they cover for it wonderfully and because also you do kind of
• 8:27
  see the Doctor being around so, so there are there's someone
• 8:32
  standing in for him or lying in for him.
• 8:35
  Mostly that actually I'm not so sure it's a huge problem and.
• 8:42
  For years I didn't actually notice that there was half an
• 8:45
  hour where he wasn't on the screen, which kind of says
• 8:49
  something. I don't know whether that's
• 8:50
  because of the movie format or what, but I don't remember
• 8:55
  noticing he was on holiday for this week.
• 8:58
  Fraser. Am I in words that were
• 9:02
  surprised? No one.
• 9:03
  I'm gonna politely disagree. With that.
• 9:07
  Lightly disagree, Okay. Yeah, yes, more friends, I
• 9:12
  think. You know, you look at other
• 9:15
  stories that that do it a little bit better, I think size, right
• 9:20
  about this team. But there's there's one problem
• 9:23
  with this team where you take the Doctor out that you have
• 9:25
  when you don't. In perhaps The Web of Fear
• 9:28
  episode 2, you know the Doctor is in the tunnel, but you know
• 9:32
  it's Jamie and it's Victoria who are.
• 9:34
  Left to carry that story. So you know you have the bit
• 9:37
  where you know the the Mick Travers and then recognize
• 9:41
  Travers and you know Victoria was wandering off because she's
• 9:43
  not safe and and that carries the story through because that's
• 9:47
  all those characters can do. They can't really drive the plot
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  for themselves. But with this team you've got
• 9:52
  Zoe and Zoe is very intelligent very capable more than adequate
• 9:59
  and stepping into the Doctor shoes to carry this plot
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  forward, there's nothing to stop.
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  You know, us being at the point where you know, the foam is
• 10:07
  sweeping over the planet Earth and Zoe is the one that twigs.
• 10:10
  Water will melt the foam. But instead she gets trapped
• 10:16
  crawling around, you know, behind the scenes in the the
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  Akon panels, which I don't know whether you guys think sexy or
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  not. We'll leave that another story.
• 10:27
  But you know, she's. She's not made the most of when
• 10:31
  the doctors missing, so the wheels start to spin when really
• 10:34
  there's nothing to stop her moving the plot forward.
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  But is that because we're in part four?
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  And if he'd had part 5 off, then maybe she would have been able
• 10:45
  to do that because that's where the plot would have.
• 10:47
  Been she does that in the invasion, doesn't she?
• 10:50
  She, she's the one that takes down the cyber army in space, so
• 10:53
  it's not like she's not doing that.
• 10:54
  Exactly. So she should be doing more in
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  this episode. But we can't because we need the
• 11:00
  doctor. I'm going to slightly less
• 11:04
  politely agree with you, Fraser, because I think it's not a
• 11:11
  problem in this episode. Jamie and Zoe are strong enough
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  to hold this up, but as well you've got fabulous guest
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  characters and this is where there's a lot of examination of
• 11:19
  fusion, which is really interesting.
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  And this is the episode where the invasion goes to Earth,
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  which is really exciting. So I think they've sort of
• 11:28
  terroristic, has gone right troutens out.
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  We got to make, we got to do as much as possible in this episode
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  to distract people from the fact that he's not here.
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  So there's a lot going on in this and what's wrong with
• 11:39
  running around sexy ventilation shafts?
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  That's the meeting. Right now.
• 11:46
  I think it all depends on how you view the ventilation shafts.
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  Really. I think that's your little thing
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  you need to. You know what's so glorious,
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  though, is that sequence there where she was going up behind
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  Phipps literally is the same sequence from the Impossible
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  Planet all those years later. She's doing exactly the same
• 12:03
  thing all those years. It's always, always ventilation
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  sharps. Yeah, well, it's a very easy way
• 12:10
  of getting from A to B, isn't it?
• 12:12
  It is all that is shooting for a grill.
• 12:15
  I'm. I'm.
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  Yeah. It's not.
• 12:18
  There's such a sense of movement in the camera work in these, in
• 12:23
  these episodes that you don't always get lots of 62 is quite
• 12:26
  static. But here there's there's not
• 12:29
  just movement from the axis, the cameras are moving as well,
• 12:32
  which I think is Michael Ferguson just being that that
• 12:35
  extra bit on it. You know how sort of Paul
• 12:38
  Bernard, director of Day of the Daleks, Tide Monster and
• 12:41
  Frontier in Space, favors the Zoom?
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  He never moves his cameras, but he zooms in and out.
• 12:47
  Lots of crash zooms. There's lots of movement
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  occurring. Well, Michael Ferguson's smart
• 12:52
  enough to move the camera and zoom at the same time.
• 12:54
  Yeah, and we just have this this shot here where you've got
• 12:58
  Professor Eldrad at the very front of the shop and it the
• 13:02
  camera's moving up and down while.
• 13:06
  Commander Ratner is moving and then it goes into Ratner.
• 13:09
  It's really interesting. That's great.
• 13:12
  Come on, work, isn't it? It gives depth and perspective
• 13:16
  to the set, You know, we know that these are actually quite
• 13:18
  small sets, but the way that they're being shot and where
• 13:22
  they're shooting through things and up and down and left and
• 13:25
  right and whatnot is it does give that that sense of depth
• 13:29
  and otherwise really cramped studio.
• 13:31
  Yeah, exactly. And so you're zooming in and
• 13:33
  then zooming out, So you've got a sense of scale that you
• 13:36
  probably haven't got in the studio at all.
• 13:38
  It's really good stuff. What's even better about the
• 13:42
  Ambassadors of Death? I know we've covered this a bit
• 13:44
  already, but is that you then rip away everything that's a bit
• 13:47
  embarrassing and pony about this?
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  So the futuristic setting, you know, the terrible costumes and
• 13:54
  a lot of we talked about that. You put him on Earth in a
• 13:56
  contemporary setting, so it's this Sweeney Esque setting of.
• 14:00
  Warehouses and things like this. And suddenly his very dynamic
• 14:03
  direction just comes alive, doesn't it?
• 14:07
  It's an incredible way. I mean, that's what happens here
• 14:10
  on location. I think, yeah, absolutely.
• 14:12
  And this is the first location work for the story.
• 14:14
  And Joe, we've we've talked about this quite a lot about
• 14:18
  sort of noticing the pattern in classic Doctor Who of lots of
• 14:22
  location footage in part one and then.
• 14:26
  Getting down to Part 4, where there's very little.
• 14:28
  So when we did Full Circle, we we said by Part 4 there's
• 14:32
  nothing on location at all. But here to come in in part four
• 14:36
  and introduce the location work is is adding an extra layer to
• 14:40
  this story that wasn't there sort of in the early thing.
• 14:44
  So suddenly you're breaking out of the studio and breaking out
• 14:48
  onto this huge location on Hampstead Heath and it's, yeah,
• 14:52
  the scale is suddenly increasing.
• 14:54
  Maybe Dick's knows. He knows, right?
• 14:56
  You know what? We've done this space on The
• 14:57
  Siege again and again and again. We'll have a couple of episodes
• 15:00
  of that and then we'll head down to Earth and and make it sort of
• 15:04
  a wider scale invasion. I think he's smart enough to do
• 15:10
  that, even. At this point.
• 15:12
  This is the bit where Fusion has to put the Doctor in the team at
• 15:15
  Cubicle and beaming that into space.
• 15:18
  Don't you tell me there ain't nothing of interest in this
• 15:20
  episode. It's it's interesting.
• 15:24
  It's just that the plot isn't good anywhere.
• 15:26
  That's that's the point because. They they start beaming all the
• 15:31
  seedpots down to earth, so the plot is moving I.
• 15:34
  Could have done that last week or the week before, to be
• 15:36
  honest. There's, it's so everything's
• 15:39
  just. Are you suggesting there should
• 15:42
  be 4 episodes long? It could easily be 4 episodes I
• 15:46
  feel. I mean.
• 15:48
  There are lots of stories that could easily be 4 episodes, and
• 15:51
  here we are, and this is not at least, but we got to we must ask
• 15:57
  the computer what to do. We can ask the computer, it's
• 16:00
  not working, but but how can we do anything without asking the
• 16:02
  computer? And so on for five episodes.
• 16:06
  Pushing the the dilemma not in the computer having a nervous
• 16:10
  breakdown, but fusion having a nervous breakdown.
• 16:12
  As far it's like psychological it's far more interesting.
• 16:15
  I think so, Definitely and. As we said, Terry Scully is
• 16:19
  doing doing brilliant work and here again he is, he's
• 16:23
  absolutely he's tearing himself apart trying to do this or not
• 16:27
  do this. That's a weird intensity to
• 16:29
  this. That ain't anywhere else in this
• 16:31
  season, I don't think. No, I think this is, everyone
• 16:35
  says sort of Season 6. The outstanding performances are
• 16:39
  Kevin Stoney and Philip Maddock in.
• 16:46
  The War Games. James Bree.
• 16:48
  James Bree Well, that's outstanding for all sorts of
• 16:51
  reasons but no one, well, exactly yet as as young
• 16:57
  colleague. But no one ever, no one ever
• 17:02
  singles this performance by Terry Scully out.
• 17:04
  And again it's part of the we've had this story for so long that
• 17:08
  we forget that it's we haven't looked at it in enough detail to
• 17:13
  say actually look at what he's doing.
• 17:16
  Well, it's unusual for Doctor Who to take that position of
• 17:19
  putting a character like that and say, right, you murder
• 17:22
  somebody or die like Doctor just doesn't usually go there.
• 17:28
  And it's really clever direction as well because it moves, you
• 17:32
  know, it's it's cutting between the Doctor, slow zoom on the
• 17:34
  Doctor and a quick As zoom on Fuchsium and the button.
• 17:36
  And Fuchsium presses the button. We don't see Jamie and the other
• 17:40
  guy whip the Doctor. So it's like, you know.
• 17:43
  You were left as a little mini cliffhanger.
• 17:46
  You know, has has it actually happened?
• 17:47
  Has the doctor been? He's absolutely broken there.
• 17:54
  He's sobbing. He that's just such brilliant
• 17:59
  character work. Think about the waters of Mars
• 18:02
  later on in the new series and put in the Doctor in that
• 18:04
  position. Like, can you help these people
• 18:06
  or not? And this sort of the intensity
• 18:08
  of that, that's what this is tapping into that kind of
• 18:11
  dilemma. I just think it's so unusual for
• 18:15
  the classic series. Yeah, you don't see it much, do
• 18:20
  you? I don't think we get another
• 18:23
  character like this. That's.
• 18:25
  Not like I'm not, like, tortured like this, you mean?
• 18:27
  No. You get something.
• 18:29
  Like Bordo in Sun Makers, where he tries to commit suicide in
• 18:32
  the first episode, but then very quickly, the Doctor's like,
• 18:34
  hello, have a Jelly baby, right? Let's sort this out.
• 18:38
  But yeah, we don't get sort of that conflict of someone who's
• 18:42
  sort of forced to work for someone and do things against
• 18:45
  their will just to stay alive. Linux.
• 18:51
  Maybe Linux? That's a really good example,
• 18:53
  actually another. Another Michael Fuchs.
• 18:57
  And well cast again as well. One of the multi lines is my
• 19:01
  favorite actor in Doctor, my favorite guest star in recurring
• 19:06
  guest star in Doctor Who. I think he is just wonderful in
• 19:09
  every role. This ghastly play.
• 19:11
  Sigh. Oh dear, dear, dear, dear, dear.
• 19:16
  These are the biggest fucking ventilation shafts I've ever
• 19:18
  seen in my life. Well, I think they're sort of
• 19:20
  service shafts as well, aren't they?
• 19:22
  I think that's sort of what they're.
• 19:25
  You and the ventilation shafts. Well, there's a lot of them, all
• 19:28
  right. That was a good thing.
• 19:32
  A minute ago. Yeah, I that is.
• 19:35
  Bigger than the bedroom. With with the huge gates to open
• 19:40
  them, so you're. Just writing advised.
• 19:43
  At me for talking about ventilation shafts and Doctor
• 19:45
  Who. It's a bloody staple.
• 19:48
  Yeah, I'm going on holiday now. I'll see you later.
• 19:51
  Leave is alone with your shaft. I'm going to ask you about.
• 19:54
  Stop it. It's because it is only relevant
• 19:58
  in this episode then I want you both to give me example of the
• 20:01
  Doctor ditching the show for holiday for one episode that
• 20:04
  really works for both of you. Turn left.
• 20:10
  OK, Fraser, I'll still get more of the classic ones.
• 20:14
  All right. Well, OK.
• 20:15
  The classic series. OK.
• 20:16
  Single episode. Space Museum.
• 20:21
  Oh yeah, Because he's frozen. Yeah, Yeah.
• 20:23
  He goes off, you know, Vicky starts a revolution.
• 20:29
  Ian goes proper die hard. Barbara has a nice cardi so.
• 20:37
  I guess I always love the. The two episodes that he takes
• 20:41
  off of The Keys of Mariners where he says, oh, I'm just
• 20:43
  going to pop forward two weeks, see you for a while, have a nice
• 20:47
  time, enjoy the screaming jumble.
• 20:49
  I'll go and have a nice time in the city of millennia.
• 20:52
  I like that. One I I quite like.
• 20:58
  I can't think of anymore, you know.
• 21:00
  There Must Be Women in Space is not bad because he's knocked
• 21:04
  out, isn't he? And he's quite unwell.
• 21:06
  But episode 2, and then you've got Jamie's sort of shell shock.
• 21:09
  Sort of through that. It's weird though, because I
• 21:13
  think phrases right, but when the companions vanish for an
• 21:16
  episode like Barbara and Keith and Mariners and things like
• 21:18
  that, I don't think you noticed as much because you can sort of
• 21:22
  come away from the companions for a bit.
• 21:25
  I'm making Hartnell invisible in the Celestial Toymaker.
• 21:29
  Yeah, Well, that's, yeah, that's.
• 21:31
  Like that. And that just always feels mean,
• 21:34
  but. I can't believe it.
• 21:35
  I just managed to talk all over the bit where the ice for pops
• 21:38
  down to Earth does his little dance and then he and Commander
• 21:44
  Radnall picks up a machine gun. He does.
• 21:46
  He's going to take him down. I love, I love that bit where
• 21:49
  the ice wave knocks the team, actually.
• 21:51
  Oh shit, left, right. There's a door here somewhere.
• 21:57
  He told us the door was to the left.
• 21:58
  It's not external, right? I don't know where.
• 21:59
  I'll just shoot you and. So it does look like.
• 22:03
  Swear that door was. I just think you could play
• 22:07
  like, oh, the okie dokie just as well, oh look, oh, actually
• 22:14
  that's not a bad trout and a like, is it?
• 22:15
  That's. No, no.
• 22:16
  And it's not badly done. And two, I know we've mentioned
• 22:22
  women, but two strong women, one saying, yeah.
• 22:29
  Is this the episode where Fitz dies?
• 22:31
  Because I think nobody has much of A reaction to that, given
• 22:34
  that they've been, you know, on an adventure of two episodes
• 22:36
  together. And again, he's he's a great
• 22:41
  character as well. He's really nicely played.
• 22:43
  I think Christopher Cole is is really good.
• 22:46
  He's better in the mutants so. Yeah, well, I think he's got a
• 22:49
  bit more to work with in the Mutants.
• 22:52
  Oh fuck me. Look at all that foam.
• 22:58
  It's the last gasp of the trout and foam machine adventures, and
• 23:02
  it's wonderful. So it begins.
• 23:07
  We've got this amount of Fairy Liquid left.
• 23:10
  We've got to use it all up before the end of the season.
• 23:16
  Good old Michael Ferguson. Look at that.
• 23:21
  It's just brilliant, isn't it? And I know it'll be honed and
• 23:23
  perfected for Ambassadors of Death where it does look
• 23:26
  beautiful. But he's he's got a style and he
• 23:30
  is working it well. He knows what he's doing.
• 23:33
  But the suspense here, the intercutting of those amazing
• 23:37
  shots of the Ice Warriors feet stomping along, then the
• 23:40
  silhouette, then the fella who doesn't know they're being
• 23:42
  approached, the phone. I think that's really good and I
• 23:48
  we can't hear it, but there's a fantastic sound effect for the
• 23:50
  Ice Warriors in this, which sounds like a crocodile or is
• 23:54
  alien noise. Clicking the kind of noise,
• 23:57
  isn't it? I I love the sound of their guns
• 24:00
  and the Mirrorlon effect as well if the Body's being being Sonic.
• 24:05
  Straight into this as well. Because there's a lot of it.
• 24:12
  If they if they are going to use, if they're going to suggest
• 24:14
  the foam is you know the the deadly thing that's attacking
• 24:18
  the earth, well at least they've got a lot of it, you know, and
• 24:21
  it's. Yes.
• 24:22
  Exactly. It's not.
• 24:23
  Just like it's a little tiny bit of slime somewhere or whatever.
• 24:27
  They're going for it in in the epic states.
• 24:30
  By the end of episode 5, where? There's there's more of it than
• 24:34
  anyone could possibly imagine that had.
• 24:38
  To clean that up at the end of the.
• 24:42
  Yeah, outside of a university phone party, this is not.
• 24:47
  This is quite unusual as well. Phipps has like a bit of a panic
• 24:50
  attack, doesn't he Inside? I want the guest character to
• 24:53
  get in the moments. Yeah, and we we've got 7 Sticks
• 24:57
  is scripting these episodes and it's his first time out and he's
• 25:01
  already on the characterization like no one's business.
• 25:06
  Well, I think we said Friday, didn't we, that he did a lot of
• 25:09
  tinkering with the Dominators as well, didn't he?
• 25:11
  Bringing in that scene, that amazing scene between Raga and
• 25:15
  Toba. Yeah, I think the most of the
• 25:17
  the dominators was share with that.
• 25:20
  You know it was the the script that at the time Tevins, his
• 25:23
  assistant was this is that's where we started to to kind of
• 25:27
  cut his teeth in and learn his straighten this, this story.
• 25:30
  You know from here on this is where he is you know really
• 25:34
  starting to stretch his legs and.
• 25:37
  He's in ascendance at this point, isn't he?
• 25:40
  You know, boys, you can tell this is sort of a dawn, can't
• 25:43
  you, with the sunlight. This one looked amazing in
• 25:46
  color, wouldn't it? Yeah.
• 25:50
  Well, I always think the eyesore is actually look better in black
• 25:53
  and white than they do in color. I think the greens are a bit
• 25:58
  over the top maybe. I was quite surprised to have
• 26:01
  swelled that cursor. Peridon scrubbed up.
• 26:03
  And how great. Didn't it just?
• 26:05
  Oh yeah, I've never seen it looking that good.
• 26:08
  But as well. I think the way Ferguson
• 26:10
  silhouettes the eyes wears, that's where the design really
• 26:13
  works, The details sort of missing, but this great hulking
• 26:17
  sort of turtle creature. Because they've got an
• 26:20
  interesting shape that sort of dominates the screen.
• 26:23
  I think I'm just demonstrating that for everyone, for those of
• 26:27
  you at home. But it it looks, it's a great
• 26:31
  silhouette on the screen, isn't it?
• 26:33
  It's like the astronauts next year.
• 26:35
  It just it just works. And This is why I think this is
• 26:39
  their best story, because I think they're shot better in
• 26:42
  this story than any other. I think they're characterized
• 26:46
  better, maybe in Cursive Paladin and the Ice Warriors, but I
• 26:50
  really just think they're shot so beautifully in this this
• 26:53
  story. I think they're really well
• 26:56
  characterized in the Ice Warriors as well, certainly the
• 26:59
  the head. Yeah.
• 27:01
  Really interesting. Yeah.
• 27:06
  Yeah, Ice Warriors is better. You're right.
• 27:09
  I think it's better because it's pretty dreary to watch, but more
• 27:13
  interesting. I need to do that commentary,
• 27:16
  you know. It's an interesting one.
• 27:18
  The ice was is Derek Martinez has a very clinical and
• 27:23
  documentary style of shooting, which I often find a bit
• 27:28
  alienating. I think it works really well in
• 27:31
  Spearhead from Space, but I find some of some of his other work a
• 27:36
  bit less fascinating. He's he shoots really
• 27:40
  brilliantly, but it it kind of leaves me a bit.
• 27:44
  A bit cold. I don't know.
• 27:46
  I feel like in the Astros you've got Dudley Simpson doing a lot
• 27:49
  of the work there. Whoa.
• 27:56
  Crazy. That is also Dudley Simpson is
• 28:00
  having a whale of a time. Doing this one, these bits were
• 28:03
  he's going towards the camera, the Astros like Dun Dun Dun Dun
• 28:07
  Dun crazy. Sorry friend, he's really
• 28:10
  interested. Because he brings a similar
• 28:12
  sound to the the Ice Warriors get lots of drums again in
• 28:15
  cursive Peladon and monster Peladon.
• 28:17
  So it's like he's got this continuity of scoring all these
• 28:20
  stories and remembers what he's done and brings that back.
• 28:24
  So there's a similar theme for the Ice Warriors in cursive
• 28:27
  Peladon whereas bomb bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb.
• 28:32
  Wow, that I mean, this has become the doctor in the
• 28:34
  standard Music podcast. Well, I think the music in this
• 28:38
  story is just phenomenally good. It's so great.
• 28:41
  It's so 1969. The piano bit is the best piano.
• 28:51
  Please make your point. You're being very patient.
• 28:54
  No, I was my my point was, yeah, W Simpson does the scores for
• 28:58
  both this story and Ice Warriors, but Ice Warriors is
• 29:00
  the better score. And that is the secret weapon of
• 29:03
  the Ice Warriors for me is, you know, you go in the ice for the
• 29:06
  very first episode, just have that sort of like, you know,
• 29:10
  pressing, doing the at the start.
• 29:13
  And that just sets the tone so well for what's what's going to
• 29:17
  come with, you know, glaciers and Martians and and all the
• 29:21
  rest of. I think Dudley Simpson is what
• 29:24
  really ultimately sets the Ice Warriors above this story.
• 29:28
  Even though he's doing both, he does a better job the first
• 29:30
  time. Well, you know what else I think
• 29:31
  is the strength of the Ice Warriors, which I actually think
• 29:34
  is better than this as well, is I think the setting is realized
• 29:38
  more convincingly. I think the the, the Antarctic
• 29:42
  setting is really well done in that with use of stock footage
• 29:46
  and and lots of sort of cave sets and things like that and
• 29:49
  that fabulous old Mansion House in the middle of that snowy
• 29:53
  setting. I think it's really interesting.
• 29:55
  The juxtaposition of the really futuristic and silly costumes.
• 30:00
  It it just works. But I think Ferguson Shoots is
• 30:03
  set about. So it's it's bring some
• 30:05
  roundabouts. I mean, this is it.
• 30:07
  There's there's things that are better than this story, more
• 30:09
  than than the Ice Warriors and but there's things that's better
• 30:12
  than this story, than lot of other stories.
• 30:15
  You know, maybe Michael Ferguson, really.
• 30:17
  Yeah, and this is. I think this is more an action
• 30:21
  adventure story than the Ice Warriors is.
• 30:25
  The Ice Warriors is a bit slower and a bit more cerebral perhaps
• 30:28
  than. Than this one is.
• 30:30
  Yeah, it does kind of hang on more on that you know man versus
• 30:34
  machine element which you whereas this is just a few
• 30:37
  minutes ago. Yeah, but this is just they're
• 30:40
  going for it. Look at Zoe here, creeping
• 30:43
  against the light screen. That's brilliant.
• 30:47
  Feel it does with silhouettes. It's incredible.
• 30:51
  And this, this ending in a second where she's up against
• 30:53
  the screen. I.
• 30:56
  Think it's the most ridiculous heating control in the whole
• 30:59
  world as well? No.
• 31:01
  Excuse me. Come around my ass.
• 31:02
  I still haven't figured mine out yet.
• 31:07
  Is your heat and control look. It might was just a wheel that
• 31:10
  just went to full on. I'll be alright.
• 31:12
  I was going to say joy is your heat and control look like it
• 31:15
  will steer a ship. I wish.
• 31:18
  I don't think they want to be heating the air up to 100
• 31:20
  degrees centigrade, though. I'm not sure that's going to go
• 31:23
  well for them. Oh, VIP so.
• 31:28
  Miralond to death. It's the way we'd all want to
• 31:32
  go. I like to think that he has just
• 31:34
  turned into one of those bouncy balls so and so bounced down the
• 31:36
  corridor from Empress and Mars. Look at her.
• 31:41
  Look at that. That's a great shot.
• 31:44
  And as you know, it's how the camera just sort of glides in
• 31:46
  with him as well. Yeah.
• 31:49
  Got an eye for a moment and he. Fascinating.
• 31:52
  Just we can't. We can't wax the record enough
• 31:54
  about Michael Ferguson. And I'll tell you what I ain't
• 31:56
  even started yet, because I think some of the bits in five
• 31:58
  and six. I think we've got some great fun
• 32:00
  bits coming up, haven't we? Some great form bits did you
• 32:04
  see? We certainly got a lot of those.
• 32:08
  You haven't been to a phone party.
• 32:10
  No, I will have you, Joe. And everyone got their kit off
• 32:17
  very, very quickly. It was amazing.
• 32:24
  Does anyone have any Twitter questions ready for us?
• 32:26
  Because I believe there's still some to go.
• 32:30
  I'm sorry. Hang on, was it me?
• 32:33
  Who? It was your.
• 32:35
  Oh, right on. Right.
• 32:37
  I'll have to look them up now. No, I wasn't prepared, sorry.
• 32:41
  Hang on, hang on, I just can't remember which ones we've
• 32:44
  already answered. Well, don't worry a little
• 32:47
  repetition. We're all we're watching the
• 32:48
  scenes of their people are used to that.
• 32:50
  I remember I'm Darren. Lip Rounders asked is this
• 32:54
  Terrence Dix's best scripts? No, I do think it's his best
• 32:59
  repair job. I think it's, yeah, definitely
• 33:02
  up there, isn't it? I think his best script or a fan
• 33:05
  rock I. Think Johnny Morris asked that
• 33:08
  question as well. All right.
• 33:09
  Well, maybe it was Johnny Morris.
• 33:11
  Sorry. What do you think?
• 33:12
  Sorry, Johnny. Best script then Fraser and
• 33:14
  sigh. Well, it's the five doctors,
• 33:18
  obviously. Not horrorfang rock, I think.
• 33:22
  Horrorfang Rock is very is technically very good and
• 33:26
  absolutely brilliant and full of atmosphere, full of brilliance
• 33:29
  and everything else. But The Five Doctors is taking
• 33:35
  an impossible brief and producing something that is
• 33:39
  absolutely completely full of love and affection and.
• 33:44
  Absolutely. The most quotable, classic
• 33:46
  Doctor Who story of them all. And it's just.
• 33:51
  Π. That's what he said.
• 33:53
  Fraser, if you say robot, just to be contriv.
• 33:57
  I like robot too. I think robot is very fun.
• 34:00
  Ordinate next week, but come on, Fraser hit me.
• 34:02
  Well, no. I'm gonna say Ambassadors of
• 34:04
  death again. I think that's both his best
• 34:06
  script, his best story, his best prepare job, his best talent.
• 34:10
  Step in and it brings us back to Michael Ferguson.
• 34:13
  As well, doesn't. It it does, it does and it kind
• 34:16
  of it brings us back to Michael Ferguson again.
• 34:20
  And so obviously you have 10-6 and Michael Ferguson working
• 34:23
  together on this story in very good harmony and producing some
• 34:26
  very good and they seem to complement each other in
• 34:28
  ambassadors as well. So you know that leads to a
• 34:32
  really big question for you guys and can you think of any other
• 34:34
  writer and director combination that stands out?
• 34:38
  Yes, I can roll back to Stuart and Douglas Canfield.
• 34:43
  Oh, nice, because I'm not sure there are many others that
• 34:48
  actually work together more often than than once or twice.
• 34:55
  Well, you know so enough, you know, Terence Sticks and Peter
• 34:58
  Moffett. Because that's.
• 35:01
  True. Yeah, that's.
• 35:03
  I think they actually are in cahoots pretty well as well.
• 35:06
  Yeah, because State of Decay is brilliant.
• 35:11
  Who's trying to think? Oh, Facebook new stumped us.
• 35:15
  What about the new series? Who do you think works best?
• 35:18
  Ross T Davis and Graham Harper. Yeah, that's, yeah, absolutely.
• 35:24
  Moffett and Rachel Tulley. Yes, and Moffett and Nick Haran
• 35:29
  as well. And.
• 35:33
  Chris Chippnell and Jamie Magnus Stone.
• 35:35
  Oh, yes, yes. Oh, yes.
• 35:38
  Who bring out really good stuff in each other.
• 35:42
  Any others? Any others?
• 35:48
  Richard Martin and no one. Any more questions before we
• 35:55
  skip into 5? I'm still looking for it months
• 35:59
  back. Will you keep?
• 36:01
  I'll keep scrolling and I'll have some ready.
• 36:03
  Oh, here we go. Here we go.
• 36:04
  Here we are. Look.
• 36:11
  This is making wonderful podcast in here.
• 36:14
  In universe, how did the astral map wind up as an exhibit in
• 36:18
  Professor Eldred's museum? Oh, now I thought I'd be Gary
• 36:22
  Russell's. Got to write that story
• 36:24
  sometime, honey. I know.
• 36:27
  Go out with that one. Quickie dropped it off when he
• 36:30
  dropped off the drill from the Dominators.
• 36:33
  Oh yeah, he was all quickie. He's been all around the
• 36:37
  universe, you know. He.
• 36:39
  Has guest star in this one because it's also series 6, but
• 36:42
  unfortunately as usual, his power is low.
• 36:49
  Stick him in the microwave, he'll be fine.
• 36:51
  Yeah. I think quite a lot of the
• 36:55
  questions we've actually covered since far.
• 36:56
  Oh okay. Well, I'll tell you what.
• 36:58
  But there are a couple of there are a couple of episode specific
• 37:01
  ones to come. Because people are now being
• 37:04
  extremely patient with us. Should we just finish here?
• 37:08
  Finish here, I'll cut it in there.
• 37:12
  Does anyone need to drink or anything?