Latest / The Mami Collective / Let Them Be Disappointed: Stop Choosing Everyone but Yourself with Denise Soler Cox

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Let Them Be Disappointed: Stop Choosing Everyone but Yourself with Denise Soler Cox · The Mami Collective

• Denise and Paulina (no ads): Welcome to the Mommy Collective. I'm Paulina Roe, radio host, TV contributor, writer, and mom of one. This is where ambitious moms come to keep their identity intact while navigating motherhood. Here we talk about the real stuff: career, money, relationships, identity, and everything that gets messy in between. You won't find sugarcoating or cliches. What you will find are unfiltered conversations, real resources, and proof that you don't have to lose yourself to be a good mom. The Mommy Collective is here to remind you you can be ambitious, you can take up space, and you can thrive in motherhood and in everything else that makes you you. Before we get into the episode, make sure you're following the Mommy Collective on Facebook, TikTok, and Instagram. And share this podcast with a mommy in your life who needs a little inspiration or just a reminder that she's killing it. Also, don't forget to sign up for our newsletter and leave us a review so We can keep showing up and reach every ambitious mom out there doing big things. Let's get into it. Hey, it's Paulina, another episode of the Mommy Collective podcast. I am so excited for my guest today. We are chatting with the one and only Denise Solercox. How are you today? I'm awesome. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you for coming on. So I first heard of you through, I believe, a mutual friend of ours, Denise Torres. And yes, you were on her pod, and I do listen to hers religiously. It's like my Monday morning drive into work kind of thing. Yeah. And I was like, I gotta hit her up. She's so great. And I was like, I gotta hit up Denise. We've gotta get her on the pod. And I'm so grateful that you said yes to us. So first things first, Denise. Of course. I'm excited. We're talking all things like motherhood with you, but we're also talking about identity. We're talking about the good girl. We're talking about so many things that I feel like a lot of our moms, but at some point. question within themselves, right? Or that that's something that like I would say hits them in the face, right? When it comes to becoming a mom and just all the identity shifts and parts that do come with it. So I'm excited to talk to you. So Denise, before we get started, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Yeah. So I am, well, I guess I'm a mom, I'm a wife, I'm Latina, Boricwa. I am also a filmmaker. I made the award-winning film Being Enya that came out 10 years ago that kind of started my entire chapter this chapter of my career and I'm also the author of a book called What Will They Say, which is already been translated into Spanish. And so some people get triggered when I tell them the name of the book. Only if you're in the culture will you understand that level of triggering, but that book came out in August. So all of those things. Wow. No, that's incredible. And I believe I should be getting a copy of your book too. So I'm so excited to read it. So much to unpack here, just even like from when it comes to your story, right? To where you are today. So from what I've gathered about you as well, you went from being pretty much like, was it a stay-at-home mom to becoming a filmmaker? Is that how the transition happened? Yes, I had two babies at home and babies that were babies, because we were talking about babies before we came on. But then they were in preschool and I had an idea that I had been holding for 17 years to make a film about what it's like to feel ni de aquí, ni the that whole tension. And I got the idea when I lived in Mami in the late nineties, but it took me seventeen years to feel like I was good enough to actually pursue it. And yeah, that's how things started off. I was just a mom that not just a mom, I was a brand new mom that had this feeling that if I don't pursue this, it'll never happen. And there's something about having kids that feels like all consuming all absorbing and at the time I wasn't working on anything else. And so I felt very pulled to cross this one off my list, except for that I had no idea how to do it. But after deciding less than two years later, the film did come out and it completely changed my life. I love that. I love that you took that chance on yourself. Because like you said, like being a mom like No matter what, it's always so consuming, right? It's your identity and how could it not be is what I always say, right? how can that not become my whole identity essentially? But I do love that you were able to pretty much do something that was kind of on like I would say top of mind for you, or like something that you felt passionate towards. And like I love that it opened so many doors for you too. So I definitely wanna dive into that as well with you. But before we talk about everything that you've built, right? Who were you taught that you were supposed to be, right? What what did like being a good daughter look like in your house growing up? Yeah, well, it didn't look like making your own way, making movies that would take you away from your family, writing a book about taboos. It didn't look like anything but keeping the house clean and being a good Latina daughter. I mean that's the contradiction, right? Like we're taught that go get a good education, do all of these things, make us proud, right? Make the sacrifice worth it. And if what comes with that is an education Is understanding there's so much more out there for me. There's so many opportunities to be had and we meet our counterparts that maybe aren't Latinos that are pursuing these incredible careers, but then we get hit with the expectation that, you know, it can do this to a point, but if it takes you away from the family and if it takes you away from this prescribed role, then we're gonna have a problem. Except for no one actually says that. It's just implied. No, a hundred percent. Couldn't agree more with that. I think you're right. I think that the image is exactly I hate to say what is it almost something like stereotypical where it's like, okay, all because I feel like the story comes up so much in our culture, right? I talk to a bunch of different women and it's the same kind of concept of yes, the house is clean or the dinner's cooked, things like that, right? Don't get me wrong. I love my clean house. Yes. I love learning to cook. I'm learning how to cook, by the way. I'm thirty four but I'm learning how to cook. I love all this, right? But then I'm also like, but there's so much more to me and I wanna pursue that and act on it. So I completely understand exactly what you're saying. So your work explores identity and belonging. Can you take us back to a moment when you felt that you had to edit a part of yourself maybe to fit in? my whole life, right? My life growing up, I grew up I was originally from the Bronx. We lived my mom and my dad and my two brothers and I lived in a two bedroom apartment in the Bronx. And when I turned four, we moved to Westchester County, which is about an hour north of New York City. And one of the reasons was because I was at this age where I would become too old to share a room with them. That's what I kind of heard growing up as to why we moved so far away. And going to school growing up in one of the most beautiful places I go to as an adult, and I'm like, wow, what a great place they chose to raise us, right? And also There were no Latinos there. We were it. From preschool to senior year in high school, it was pretty much my Puerto Rican family and maybe one or two other families that were two other Mexican families. And that's it. And so growing up, I had to deal a lot with racism, with dealing with the feelings of not enough, not Latina enough when we went back to Puerto Rico and not American enough being raised in Westchester. So I was really dealing with that tension. From the time from as early as I can remember, and then went into college, dealt with it there, and also in the workforce. And it was what inspired the making of my film because I had that duality my entire life, but didn't know how to put words to it, didn't understand how to explain it. Like times were different back then. That was ten years ago. There weren't YouTube channels completely devoted to being first gen. or Instagram channels. Project Enya, which was what we called ourselves when we first came out. That's we were it and we were the first ones talking about this. And then the film Being Enya came out and it really made a splash because this is something that's very real but also invisible. And it affects us, it affects kids in preschool and it affects adults in the workplace. Yes. a hundred percent it does. And then when you, Denise, when you became a mom, right? Yourself, how did that change your relationship with your own identity? Were there parts of yourself that you maybe felt like more connected to or you maybe struggled to hold on to? Yeah. So they say that culture really hits us, especially when you're first gen. If you're the immigrant, I mean like it's like a non-issue, but talk first gen and then the second gen, there's something about becoming a parent. These life situations when you actually experience loss of a parent and also when you have children, those are two very poignant times in your life when you're like, when you realize if I don't pass this culture down, it won't get passed down. And you kind of realize that there's a line that's been drawn in the sand and you all immediately feel the sense of responsibility either to embrace it or to walk away from it, which some people do because they feel so disconnected from the culture. So in my case I very much embraced it and my girls, they understand their culture, they understand the food, the music. And for me, I never really had a great, totally fluent grasp on the language. And so that's where I really felt my most not good enough, right? And for me, I attached a lot of my I'm not good enough Latina because I'm not fully fluent. And I kind of like I believed the lie that was true. And I remember talking to my husband and crying actually about it and he was like, I just wish that you would realize 'cause like I always I have a joke, like I'm eighty percent fluent and after two glasses of Pinot Grigio, I'm very close to a hundred percent fluent, right? And he's like, You're always talking about how you're eighty percent fluent. Why don't you just teach the girls the eighty percent that you know instead of acting like you don't have what it takes or you're not a good enough mom or a good enough Latina mom? to do it and it hit me like a ton of bricks. he's right. I'm gonna teach him the eighty percent that I know. And then when I started working on the film, I started meeting so many people that felt the same way and that felt like there was a part of themselves, even if they would be considered fluent, right? There was a part of themselves that, well, it's just not enough. Like I'm just not fluent enough. And so there's this real duality that lives within us. It's not just like American, Latino. And so for me, it was the language. And that's where I felt like I wasn't good enough. And I was gonna literally throw the baby out with the bathwater until my husband just said, Listen, you need to get it together. We need to pass this culture down because my husband's a gringo from Oklahoma and he loves my Latinidad. He loves the food, he loves the culture, he loves everything. And he wanted the girls to have that too. And so That was the beginning of the story of just saying I'm gonna embrace all that I am instead of focusing on all that I'm not, and I'm gonna stop believing this BS that I'm not really Latino if I can't really speak totally fluent, because that's just a bunch of garbage. And then when I started working on the film and meeting so many people and then screening the film, I've done over four hundred events over the course of the last ten years and I've met so many Latinos on the road. That really struggle with the same thing. And the thing is, who loses out? Well, we lose out, but then the ones that really lose out are our kids because we're so busy in our shame, so centered in our own shame, that we don't realize that it costs our children the pride that they could have had in the culture in exactly the way that we choose to pass it down. And That is not an easy idea to grapple with because for so many of us we feel like, well, if you only knew my situation, then you would know that I'm actually really not Latino enough. Except for that's BS, right? You are Latino enough and your kids deserve the Latinidad that you can embrace. They deserve that Latinidad passed down to them in whatever form that you want to share it in. I feel like I needed you my whole life, Denise. I really did. we're having my whole life. 'Cause what you're saying is my story. And so many people could relate, but so I'm mixed, right? So I'm half. And like being Mexican and stuff, like I don't I I so I'm very like in I would say in tune with like my cultural side just because of like the neighborhood I'm from and like all of my friends and family, like major or like majority Mexican I married a Mexican man. So like it's around me that never like got lost upon me, but it's like I don't have a relationship with my dad. I don't know him. I don't speak to him. That half of my identity has never been front and center in my life. So it's really hard when you like have a absent parent that never introduced that to you. Like, you know what I mean? Like let's say he was in my life and like spoke Spanish to me, but my Spanish like, you know, is still bad. Like, okay, it is what it is. But I never even had that. So I struggle and fight for my life, like you said, to prove That I am. And I had to stop. I had to be like, first of all, I don't care if I'm arguing with an egg on Instagram, user five, six, nine, four, four. I got I I'm like I why am I proving myself to the egg? You know, and I I had to think about it. And I'm just like, and then also like the fact that like my story is like a little different. I'm like, well, I have like a very absent parent, a non existent parent. So like that's really hard to like let me go because my mom's Polish. She's Polish. So like for me, we I spoke Polish with her and like that's a blessing that I learned. But I'm looking at am I supposed to speak Spanish with my Polish mother? people are just so dumb that I had to really think about that. I'm like, why am I fighting for my life to prove myself? And my daughter is like 75% Latina, right? And she looks very Latina. So I'm like, you know what? I want to embrace all this with her because if I don't, nobody will and exact die here. It will. It will be the end of Yeah. Literally a quote from my film I'm going to send you the link and you should watch it. That's a literal quote. quote from someone that we interviewed. She said, if I don't, it dies with me. And I just got full body chills because that is true. And also interesting tidbit, culture for the most part is passed down from the mom. And so that's why you know Polish, okay? Your mom did the very best she could and she was able to pass down that culture to you. And if your dad was around, who knows if it would have gotten passed down, to be totally honest. Chances are it might have gotten passed down from his mom or maybe his sisters, because for whatever reason, it's always the woman, which is why when you're a parent and you're a mom, this stuff it feels like we are burdened with that. And it that's just facts, right? And so it's something we grapple with. And the most important part of this conversation to me is making sure that every Latina mom out there knows, whether she's half, a quarter, I don't care. That she is good enough to pass it down as is, and that any other garbage in her mind is that it's garbage. Anything that makes you feel deficient or less than or not enough, that is not yours. That's just noise that's out there on YouTube and it's out there on social media getting into the cracks and it doesn't need it has no place here because we're talking about your kids. And when we talk about our kids, we're very like Mami Bear. We're very protective of them. And so I'm going to suggest and invite you to put this into that domain. No one messes with my kids, right? My daughter had an issue at school last year, and it's still a joke to this day. A part of me came out that I knew was there, but she never had a chance to come out, right? I went to the school, I dealt with the principal and all the teachers, and the problem got resolved. They knew it was gonna get resolved because I was not going to leave it alone. And the thing is, I was in the middle of a deadline for my book. And I'm like, I don't care. My daughter is the most, I'm super Latina that way. My daughter is my biggest priority. Both my girls are, right? So I had to put my book aside to handle this issue. Now, what I'm telling other moms to do, other Latina moms to do, is to put this conversation of your culture inside that protective space, right? And you just know. That nobody gets to mess with how you pass down culture because you do it the way it works for you. And there's many ways to do it: there's language, there's food, there's actually traveling to the country, there's going to museums, there's clothes. There's so much about culture. We don't need to be reduced to just the language. And on top of that, in chapter seven of my book, I go very Very deep into our value system. And that's something that because you married a Mexican guy, I'm sure it's alive and well in your family. The collective, we focused value system and the thinking about the group and all of that stuff, which has its pros and cons, right? Just like everything. But that value system and all the beautiful parts of that value system is also what you can pass down to your children. And that's invisible, but it is. Very real. And again, in my book, I go into it. And so it's just really important that everyone listening knows you are not deficient in the ways that you might believe that you are. You are whole and that is pass downable. I love it. You mentioned that moms are the ones, like you said, that will typically sort of be, I would like say like the passer downers, right? For the most part. And I can definitely see that. And my question is for a mom listening, let's just say an overwhelmed, tired mom is listening, right? Which is probably all of us to be honest, right? All the time. Yes. And what if they're like, I want to, this and that and the third, but they're like, you know, because of the mental load that moms already carry, we know all of that exists. Somebody may look at it and be like, that might just be like another thing that I have to do as a mom or another task or whatever, right? And I'm just trying to display devil's advocate, but like What would you tell that mom or how can they make this fun and integrated right into everyday life? I feel like there's gonna be a way, right? Yeah, I can give you a few ideas and they're a little s the first one's a little sacrilege, but I don't care. So when I was a newer mom and my girls were in this happened when we didn't do TV for a long time. And then when we did, I was like, Oops, I think I did that too fast But whatever. They were already watching television, okay? And so they were in, I think Let's say first and second grade, because both of my daughters, they're a year apart. And they're now seventeen and eighteen now. But this is when they were like first and second grade. And they wanted to watch movies and we had all these DVDs. And so I said, Great, you can watch the movies, but you have to watch them in Spanish. And so that's a setting. That's a setting on the D V D or now like on the television. And we figured it out. This was A while ago. And so my guess is that this setting is everywhere because something changed with our television or something happened. And I'm like, where's the Spanish version? And they I only let them watch shows that could be watched in Spanish. And they're like, We want to watch something else. But it got in them. Okay. They watch all the Disney movies, they watch all the shows at the time in Spanish. And I'm like, if you want to watch, you can watch for hours, but you have to watch it in Spanish. And so that's what I did. And whatever, judge me how you will. And then I got No, I had. It's like sometimes you just need time and it's like, go watch three movies. Mommy needs her time. And but what make sure they're in Spanish. And so, and then the other one is my first daughter, who's 18 now, and she was a picky eater, and she remains a picky eater. Okay. And at the time, I was not just in that phase, I wasn't, I was like cooking food, like trying to be like the most natural mom and make all the bake the fr the vegetables and feed her all the whole foods and all that stuff. I tried so hard. And there were some things she just like was not into and she was being really difficult. And I don't know why I had never made rice and beans. I don't know why, but I hadn't. And so I made sofrito, that's like the Puerto Rican like base ingredient for everything, right? And I made her first pot of black beans and rice. And when I tell you my daughter, that's all she wanted to eat. And I know that's sacrilege too for Puerto Ricans. We don't eat black beans, that's Cuban, but I am also Cuban too. But in any case, can I tell you she ate rice and beans almost every night in the same way that I did growing up? Because I ate rice and beans every night of my life, pretty much growing up. And for years, that's all she wanted to eat. And so I taught her how to make sofrito. She knows exactly how to make it. And then I taught her about Cubans eat black beans, Puerto Ricans eat pinto beans and kidney beans, Mexicans eat refried beans, and we talked about beans. And you're sitting there having a conversation with this child, wanting to you're gonna talk to them anyway, right? So you can talk to them about beans and talk to them about the ingredients and why can't we get cilantro as the main herb in so frito? But in Denver, we can't get the second herb that's in so frito, it's called culantro, and it's like a more pungent. flavor than cilantro, right? So we had to go to the Japanese store to get that. And so again, here I am shopping and I'm like, smell this, you can smell the cilantro, you can smell the culantro. These are two ingredients. And so all we did was I just shopped at a different store. Do you know what I mean? Like And I made it a fun adventure. We're gonna go find this ingredient we can't find. And when mommy lived in Mami, we could get this anywhere, but they don't do that here because there's not a lot of Puerto Ricans here. And so it it's not extra work. It's just you just have to think how can I incorporate it? And really that's all it was. And then she had her first flan and forget about it. Okay. And so we're gonna make the cake, we're gonna make the cookies, but my daughters love and prefer flan. We were gonna make the dessert anyway, right? This isn't complicated. The way that I did it was not complicated. And I was like up to here. I was making a film and I had these two young kids and then when the film came out, I traveled forty to fifty times a year and I still was able to do it. And yeah, I was exhausted and sleepless just like all the other moms, okay? And I still found a way to insert it here and there. And if I look back and like apples to apples I probably could have done it better, but I'm damn proud of how I ended up doing it because my kids have these fundamental things that they know and they feel close to the culture. And the last thing is I make like a Puerto Rican kind of version empanadas with a very Puerto Rican kind of chicken. And they love that. And so and now they share that with their friends. And it's again, it's a lot with food and of course bad bunny. that's a very easy way to incorporate Latinidad, you know. And so like all of those things. So to me, that isn't complicated. It just takes a little bit of extra effort, but really not that much, you know? And whatever your listeners, whatever they do, that's enough. So this is not gonna be like it's never enough, because I cannot stand that conversation, not enough, and then too much. Because it's like either we feel like we're too much or not enough. Again, garbage. I'm so tired of those two ideas, when they say like living run-free in my mind. Because you can't win. You can't win in I'm too much or not enough. There's no whatever. You just have to decide, or for me, I just decided I am enough. And when I don't feel enough, I say, well, you know what? I'm just gonna be enough for this moment. And I'll worry about it the next minute in the next minute. if that's what it takes. But it's hard. It's hard to be a mom figuring out your professional life, figuring out how to be a good daughter, a good sibling, a good wife, ha s keep a clean home, have all the dishes done. I've actually personally never been successful at keeping a perfectly clean house and keeping all the dishes done or cooking every night. I've never been able to keep up with that. And at one point I just had to say, guess what? That just has to be good enough. I was about to say, first of all, LOL and my sink behind me on this side. Yes. Same deal. Just stacked dishes. But to me, I did enough yesterday that I will get to this today, when I can. You know what I mean? I'm not gonna overdo it or do the most just because someone might think that I'm not doing enough. I don't care. I don't care anymore. Right. So good for you. Good for you. Thank you. I'm learning. I'm learning. Like you mentioned, that the two instances that change you, right? Or the your giving right birth or having a child, right? And then losing a parent. So now that I've done both, and like obviously you and I have talked about this too, like now that I have done both, like I'm in just a whole different like mindset. So I really know that like I'm only gonna give what I can give. So I agree. And my little cheat sheet too really quick for like what I'm doing to incorporate Spanish and like her she goes to like a daycare in the morning. It's for like morning only, but it's in Spanish. Ooh, that's great. my goodness. That's so great. And it's right by the house too. But I was like, If I'm gonna pay this, I was like, we better be speaking languages, doing taxes, doing something. I was like, We're gonna learn. So I did that, I'm like, and it's helping, Absolutely. And the thing is it's that's very hard to quantify just how much it's helping because that gets into their brains early on. And I always I feel like the brain is like a computer. And for example, my girls, so all the television for years was all in Spanish, right? As long as they would let me do that with them. So I would say like from first to third grade for like three years, that was it. All Spanish or nothing. And we went to Spain a few years ago. I also sent them to private international school where they also focused a lot on Spanish, but they didn't go early enough to like graduate speaking Spanish fluently. And We went to Spain a few years ago and when we were there, they were like 'cause they're the one they suffer for 'cause they're half right. Like I said, my my husband's so gringo, he's like, he doesn't even know where his family's from. he's like, I think we're Irish and Scottish and my married name is Cox, Nobody knows the immigrant. They're not in touch with the person. There's no story or lore about the person that came here on a boat and made their way. Just like us. If you're first gen or second gen, chances are you have that origin story from a this other country, but he has no idea. So they're half, right? And so they don't have the language either, but they have enough so that when we were in Spain, they were just like, we understand everything that's going on. They might not have been able to speak it in perfect sentences. And I'm convinced it was that early television in Spanish that really helped them, you know? So Yeah, if they're if they're exactly and if they're gonna watch TV, like do in Spanish at least, right? Let's try to integrate this as much as we can. No, I love it. So really quick, I was curious with your book, right? It is called What Will They Say. So I'm curious of who they are for you, and I'm using air quotes, but who were they for you and what were you afraid that they would say, right, if you pursued this life that you wanted? Yeah. I feel like the first they there is is our family, you know, our immediate family. And then it's the tias and the primos and all of the people that like to chismear about us and our lives and what they think we should be doing and how much they think we should weigh and the ones that like shred us to pieces. But also love us. So it's like this complicated relationship. But in any way in any case, no, it's family and it's like wondering what they'll say and what they'll think. The reason why I decided to write the book though is because I met thousands of Latinas on the road, like I said, over about eight years screening the film and doing keynote speeches of companies all over the country. And I met so many Latinas that would say something that they wanted to do with their life. So like, I'd love to make a movie or my version of a movie it would be writing a book or my version of the movie that 'cause in the film, I'm in the film too, and I'm just exactly like this. Like I'm just real and normal. And so people felt like they could relate and they're like, wow, if she could do that Then I could start that business or I could write a book or do whatever, move across the country, do something that they really wanted to do. But for us, it feels so hard to center ourselves. Like we're really taught not to center ourselves. We're taught to center the group and the family, which I believe is a beautiful thing, up until the time it hurts us, up until the time a Latina wants to move away to pursue a professional opportunity or when she wants to go solo travel, right? Something like you and I probably don't know, at least right now in our lives. Or wants to go do something that separates her from her family. So when I was on tour with my film, I can't tell you how many people asked me in audiences, what does your mother think of you traveling so much? And they would never ask somebody who wasn't Latina that question, but they knew and I wasn't offended by the question, but they knew that I would have that I would, hopefully share the honest truth, which is my mom at the time and I were talking a lot more often, and she would often call me and say, Where are you? And I'm like, I'm on the road. I'm in this city. I'm screening the film here. I'm doing this. And she would always ask me, and this is for years, she would always ask me, who is with the kids? And the thing is, I'm happily married. My husband is a personal trainer. We had a gym at our house His clients came to our house, so they were with him. And so there was never any doubt like who they were with, but there was this implied thing. So it's never directly said, right? Like, why are you out of town again? And and it was a really tough thing for me to navigate. But at the same time, I'm not gonna lie, I freaking loved it. I loved going on the planes. I loved sleeping in hotel rooms by myself. I loved just like having a respite. some time of my own and had I not pursued this, I never would have had that. And also the r my relationship with my husband improved exponentially because he really appreciated my contribution when I was home, right? And then I was gone. I mean, think about I was gone for eight years straight, 40 to 50 times a year. So he was like in full appreciation mode of me. And so yeah, like Not all people get that opportunity, right? But the preoccupation with what people will say then goes beyond just our families. We bring that to our professional lives and we wonder what our coworkers will say or what our bosses will say. And the thing that sucks is then that becomes like a shackle. And that's when I step in because I don't like how I've limited myself. I mean, it took me 17 years because to make my film and it wasn't because it takes that long to make a movie. It took 17 years because I was super I believed I wasn't good enough because I thought other people would criticize me. who is she to make this movie when she's not even fully fluent in Spanish? Or I was afraid of what they would say, right? And so all of the big things in my life that I've wanted to do that I haven't done, it's because of a preoccupation with what they would say. And so I dealt with it and continue to deal with it. And what broke my heart was just meeting so many women on the road that also were not doing something amazing because of the same reason. And a lot of it was connected to some taboo in our families or in our culture. You're not supposed to do that. And you're not supposed to say that. You're not supposed to share that. You're not supposed to be that. And I ugh just I cannot stand it. And so I decided to write a whole book about it and to share my own version of the stories that I heard on the road. really with hopes that Latinas would read this and say, the first thing, I'm not alone. And the second thing is this is not gonna stop me anymore. Right? Like a hundred percent. I just I want them to bel like rebelieve in themselves again. You know what I mean? For sure. And then what do you think happens though when like let's say like somebody finally makes a choice right on herself, like a mom listening, she makes a choice And then her family is very disappointed, right? So how do you handle that without being regretful or taking that choice back? Yeah. So I call that good Latina daughter guilt. Okay. Okay, Gail. So it's real. It's real. And don't think that I haven't had to deal with that. Like I don't want to pretend that it's been easy and that I haven't had to reconcile that for myself. And I will also say it's these creating boundaries. For myself, for my family, and for the decisions that I've made is the best thing I've ever done. And it's always hard. It's never not hard. It's always hard to say no to family and to say we're not coming home for the holidays. Like we have Thanksgiving and Christmas coming up. A lot of Latinas are just like, I don't want to deal with that. Or maybe they're they don't have to get on a plane. Maybe The expectation is that they're gonna host everybody and make all the food and clean their house until it's like you could eat off the floor and take care of all of the kids and appear well rested. I mean, like maybe it's that, right? And maybe for the first time they're thinking, How can I get out of this? Right. The thing is you can and you are going to have to it's like going to the gym. You're gonna have to start exercising the muscle called boundaries. But it's worth it. And we're all adults and we're we've had babies. We've had babies. That's the hardest thing I've ever done. Giving birth to a baby, I've never done anything harder. Okay. And even if you haven't birthed your own baby, the second hardest thing is raising that baby and not getting enough sleep. my gosh. So hard. We have done this. We have done the hardest part. I promise you, there is nothing harder than that. And we're also adults and we can do this. And sometimes because it's a cultural norm and it's so intangible, it's it has to do with expectations. And then we feel like, my god, I'm betraying them if I don't do this or I'm going against everyone's gonna be mad at me, or that worst feeling, they're gonna be disappointed in me. I don't wanna feel like that. Well, guess what? Either you feel the feeling of having disappointed other people, or you feel the feeling of disappointing yourself. And are you ready to stop disappointing yourself? Because my guess is that we know when we choose, I don't want to disappoint them, which means I'm gonna disappoint me again, right? We don't really know who we are. When we're not disappointing ourselves at some level. And I don't want to say this is true categorically, because there's always exceptions to every rule, to everything that I'm saying. And for the most part, when we're only choosing what we think we should do and who we think we should be at the cost to ourselves. And I'm not talking to the people that are like, I love cooking for everybody. I love cleaning. I love all of the stuff. I don't know what the hell she's talking about. This isn't for me. Well, then this isn't for you. I'm talking to the people who feel burdened and who feel like, you know what, it just feels like a too much of a price to pay. And also too, it's confusing AF because there's good and bad. It's like chocolate chip pancakes. Like, you know, I love chocolate chip pancakes, but like and the chocolate chips are like the best part, right? But like I also know that they're not the best for my waistline. So those are like a treat that I have. But they're the thing is is that so maybe it's not like chocolate chip pancakes. It's gonna come with it's a complicated thing. Because of all the fun that that happens with family, and because of all of the connections that feel like are gonna get lost, and because of all of the ways that things are that you will be disrupting if you say no, or if you choose yourself. So there is gonna be like a feeling of grief. That's real. And the feeling of not letting yourself down is better. Like the that feeling of relief that you have. everybody has that feeling, I think most of us have ha have experienced the feeling of breaking up with somebody, right? And so and like having a hard time. There have been some guys in my life where I really had a hard time breaking up with them. But when I did, I felt this overwhelming sense of relief. And I was like, my gosh, why didn't I do that when I wanted to like a year ago? Right. That whoosh of relief is awesome. And it's the same feeling when you say no. And you're not saying no to the culture though. That's not I'm saying break up with the taboo that says you have to show up so perfectly, poised, good cook, no dishes, clean house, best for everybody. Break up with that taboo. You don't have to break up with the culture. You keep the culture. Just break up with the taboo. That is such a good reminder. Because saying no or like you said, breaking up with the taboo or those expectations, whatever they are, doesn't mean you're turning your back on your culture. It does not. And I think we have to remember that more. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Cause it's not this is a complicated thing. It's best looked at like very tangled. And so I'm just saying go get a brush and just start brushing it out. And that sometimes hurts. But The tangles will be gone eventually. But the brushing, it the hope of a of no tangles is that you're okay. You know? Like why can't you also be okay? When did your feelings stop mattering? And I really wanna be sure that people don't interpret this as she hates the culture because I'm obsessed with my Latinidad and I always say I would be Latina if I could choose in every iteration of my life. Like if There's such a thing of having multiple lives. I hope that I get to be Latina and every one of them. And what I also hope for myself and for all the other women is that we get a chance to know the feeling of regarding ourselves and our own feelings and the things that we want, our desires, and also know that we can maintain and pass down this beautiful culture at the same time. Absolutely. Absolutely. Denise, my last question for you before we I let you go, but what do you hope that your daughters never feel they have to ask permission for, right? How are they, or how are you practicing, I'm sorry, that in your own life, right? That they don't have to ask you for permission for or never feel like they have to. Yeah, I would say my approval. And I've told them that. I've told them on multiple occasions, and it's time kind of slows down when I tell them this, because I really have an awareness of how modern and forward thinking it is to tell my kids that your opinion of yourself is more important than my opinion of you. And so you make the decision. I'm trying to teach them about their bodies because for me it took so long. It took more of my life, I'm fifty-six years old. For most of my life I did not know how I felt. I didn't know what a no was. I didn't 'Cause I was so used to s acquiescing. I was just so used to wanting to be liked, wanting to be included, wanting to belong, that I was an overgiver. you could count on me to dig in and support and say yes, whatever you need, I'll be there, right? And so my relationship with my own needs were was very mangled and distorted. Like I didn't really know what I wanted or needed, like truthfully. And when I started learning about my own kind of physiology, I started understanding like what a yes is in my body and more importantly what a no is. And so like that contracted feeling tense all like our body knows when we don't want to do something. Right. And so I started understanding like, when I feel contracted, tense and like nauseous, say no. Right. And when I don't yeah and when I don't know something, when I'm just like I just don't know what to do, and it's mostly because I don't want to disappoint someone, I have a rule for myself and I actually put this in the book too. If I'm an I don't know, I also will say no. And just because most of my I don't know's are no's that are too concerned with what other people will say. And so a yes feels good, period. And there's all kinds of examples That I've been able to share with my daughters, and so that they know what their yes is, what to do with their I don't know's, and what to do with a no. And I wanted them to know that under no circumstances are they to wonder, like, if something will disappoint me, like to they need to be so sure of their own choices and decisions and not thinking about what I would think. And I know that it's impossible, right? As moms, we know, like. we all want our mom's approval. We all want our mom's love. But I also tell them there's literally nothing they can do to lose my love. And if anything, when they were young, I used to say, Does mommy's love ever change for you? And when they were really young, they were like, No. And I'm like, Yes, it does. And they're and they would look at me and I would say, It grows. Mommy loves you more today than I did yesterday. And they were like, Ooh. And so when they were younger and I just like Thanks for the opportunity to remember this because I completely forgot that I used to do this. And I would say, Does mommy's love change for you? And they would say, Yep, it grows. And so they know there's nothing. Like it's my love for them is so big. And there's n so they're not to worry about me or what I think. They're and I want them to be so in touch, but to trust themselves so much that my love and my support is always like the cherry on top. And also guaranteed, But when it becomes conditional, when their behavior becomes conditional upon me, that's when things get screwed up. And so I don't want them to worry about that. And so yeah, I hope that answered the question. Hundred percent. That is a great reminder too for parents as well. Like for me, I'm a new mom, so like my two year old, right, like I can see her peeking over. I'm like, is she looking for approval? Is she looking for reassurance? I don't want that from her. I want her to always know, I'm going to always approve of who you are, right? And you are like we talked about this like you are enough. Like you're never not enough. You know what I mean? So there are these are like these little things that I'm trying to implement in like daily life with her, or just yeah, happy like I know she's only two, so she really doesn't understand. No, but you T V and Bluey and you know. Well, she understands what a two year old would understand. And the thing is she feels it and the feeling of it is the language, that's the language, Cause we could say things until we're blue in the face, but like the way that we feel, they can pick that up. They know that what unconditional love feels like from us, you know? yeah. I'm like, I know you know I love you. And I just look at it. I'm like, you know. I love it. Denise, thanks for coming on the show today. We appreciate you so much. Can you let us know where we can follow you, where we can get your book, all that good stuff, and your film too. Yeah, yeah. So They can get all of that at my website, dinnystillercox.com, and I'm super active on Instagram, same dinnystillercox.com. They can find the link to my film on Instagram, on my website, and they can also find out about my book on my website as well, as well as all of the places they can buy it, which I suggest they buy it at their local person of color owned bookstore. And if they don't have one of those bookstores around where they live, you can also go to bookshop.com. and or dot org, I can't remember, and choose what bookstore. And there's female owned, POC, there's all the things. And so you can really choose what bookstore you want to support and whom you want to support that way. I love it. Perfect. Denise, thank you so much. We appreciate you being here. Of course. Thanks so much.