Latest / The You Project / #1682 Three Pounds Of Bacteria (In Your Gut) - Prof. Bill Sullivan

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#1682 Three Pounds Of Bacteria (In Your Gut) - Prof. Bill Sullivan · The You Project

0:01
Speaker 1: I get a team. I hope you're great. Our favorite
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Speaker 1: one of our favorite geeks. I better not say favorite geeks,
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Speaker 1: because we have quite a few, but definitely our favorite
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Speaker 1: professor of cellular and molecular biology.
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Speaker 2: Do I get that right, Doc rov yep, that's close enough. Definitely,
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Speaker 2: that is back, Doctor Bill Sullivan. Welcome back to the
0:25
Speaker 2: U projects. Good to see you again, sir.
0:29
Speaker 3: Good to see you now you and RTD coming along.
0:33
Speaker 1: Don't ask it. Well, I'm at the writing stage, so
0:38
Speaker 1: I've done all my all, my research has done all
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Speaker 1: my Now it's a different system over here, but yeah,
0:47
Speaker 1: so all my all my studies and research is done
0:50
Speaker 1: on my data is in. I'm just writing papers now
0:52
Speaker 1: and writing I've got to I've got to have two,
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Speaker 1: preferably three papers published, and I've got to write my thesis,
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Speaker 1: which is about eighty thousand words. I'm doing all of that.
1:05
Speaker 1: You have to get what's called academic milestones here where
1:09
Speaker 1: you've got to stand in front of a panel in
1:12
Speaker 1: my university, Monash University, in the neuroscience neurocyclab you've got
1:17
Speaker 1: to do four times in front of them and get
1:20
Speaker 1: four green lights, which I've finished. I'm done, so I'm
1:23
Speaker 1: kind of on the home straight, so I hope, I
1:28
Speaker 1: hope to hand everything in in about four months. But
1:31
Speaker 1: then you've got to get feedback and so we'll see.
1:34
Speaker 3: But it's a process. But congratulations are making it so far.
1:39
Speaker 3: The AX defense is probably one of the biggest hurdles.
1:43
Speaker 1: Do you know what for somebody who last week, So
1:46
Speaker 1: we're recording this Monday, eleven thirty four Australian time or
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Speaker 1: Melbourne time anyway. Last week I did four presentations, like
1:57
Speaker 1: thousands of people I spoke to last week. Two of
1:59
Speaker 1: the events were nearly a thousand people at each event.
2:03
Speaker 1: I'm so comfortable up there. It's just my thing. That's
2:06
Speaker 1: like my happy place. Blah blah blah. I stand in
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Speaker 1: front of all professors. I am so fucking terrified. I
2:15
Speaker 1: am like I have because I don't you know, well,
2:21
Speaker 1: it's not my natural habitat right. And obviously I'm a
2:23
Speaker 1: lot more comfortable and familiar now November one, it'll be
2:27
Speaker 1: five years, so it's more normal and more natural now.
2:30
Speaker 1: But oh my god, Doc, it's like for me, for
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Speaker 1: somebody who's relatively confident talking and doing what I do
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Speaker 1: for a living, You've never seen anyone more inept. You
2:42
Speaker 1: would never pick that I'm a professional speaker. Watching me
2:45
Speaker 1: in front of those four.
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Speaker 3: It's a very different audience. You go from a bunch
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Speaker 3: of people who might be nodding their heads to a
2:53
Speaker 3: bunch of people who are shaking it the other way
2:55
Speaker 3: and just looking for, you know, the holes in your knowledge.
3:00
Speaker 3: And once you lead a little it's like sharks, right,
3:03
Speaker 3: they sense that little bit of blood and they will
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Speaker 3: go after that topic that you might not be so
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Speaker 3: familiar with. It's rigorous.
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Speaker 1: Look, I mean, I think they were quite kind to me,
3:14
Speaker 1: but at the same time they're obviously I mean, their
3:18
Speaker 1: job is not to make me feel good. Their job
3:20
Speaker 1: is not to nod or smile or agree of course
3:23
Speaker 1: one percent right, And you've probably done lots of presentations
3:29
Speaker 1: where your audience is at least somewhere between somewhat receptive
3:33
Speaker 1: and what we would call warm. Like a warm audience
3:36
Speaker 1: is they want to hear you, they like you, you know,
3:39
Speaker 1: it's all round. It's a pretty good experience. But when
3:42
Speaker 1: you stand in front of an academic panel, I call
3:45
Speaker 1: it going to court, because it's like going to court.
3:48
Speaker 1: You're yeah, you're just another student. Of course, you're just
3:53
Speaker 1: another student and you're just number whatever number you are,
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Speaker 1: and you're doing this doctoral program and you're researching this
4:02
Speaker 1: stuff and ready set off you go. So but very
4:07
Speaker 1: good for me because you know it's I think that
4:11
Speaker 1: for me anyway, that getting in a different place, in
4:14
Speaker 1: a different environment, being really uncomfortable and also being to
4:19
Speaker 1: be honest, especially initially somewhat inept, you know, learning to
4:23
Speaker 1: do academia after twenty years away from university and I
4:27
Speaker 1: mean a different level. Obviously for me, it was just
4:31
Speaker 1: a massive learning curve. And I said this the other day.
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Speaker 1: I was talking this big audience about insecurity and self
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Speaker 1: doubt and overthinking and imposter syndrome, and I said, I know,
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Speaker 1: I look confident and we were talking about, you know,
4:45
Speaker 1: just all this kind of stuff. I said, honestly, for
4:47
Speaker 1: the first four months of my PhD, the thing I
4:51
Speaker 1: thought about most is how do I get out of
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Speaker 1: this without being totally publicly humiliated, because I don't know
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Speaker 1: if I can do it.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's tough, but as one of my former mentors
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Speaker 3: told me, you know, the process has value. These individuals
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Speaker 3: aren't up there to be mean or cruel. It's to
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Speaker 3: expose what you know and what you don't know. And
5:16
Speaker 3: it's easier to say this than actually do it. But
5:19
Speaker 3: that is a worthwhile process because when you see the
5:22
Speaker 3: gaps in your knowledge, that's a learning experience and it
5:25
Speaker 3: tells you what you need to focus on, what you
5:27
Speaker 3: need to do a deeper dive on, and it tells
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Speaker 3: you what you do know. So that's that's the part
5:35
Speaker 3: of the process that's good. And from someone who's in
5:37
Speaker 3: the sciences, you know, if I'm out talking about science
5:42
Speaker 3: to a general to the general public, and just like science,
5:45
Speaker 3: communicating or telling them really fascinating aspects about biology or
5:50
Speaker 3: what have you, that's a whole different ballgame than talking
5:53
Speaker 3: to people about your own research and what you think
5:58
Speaker 3: you discovered in the lab. Because they are looking for problems,
6:02
Speaker 3: they are looking for flaws, and that is for the
6:06
Speaker 3: benefit of moving science forward. It's not to be mean,
6:09
Speaker 3: it's not to be cruel. It is to try to
6:13
Speaker 3: get to the truth or as close as humans can
6:16
Speaker 3: possibly approximate it. And in the science, you know that
6:20
Speaker 3: that in the sciences, it's critically important to have people
6:23
Speaker 3: more or less rip your work apart, because if you
6:27
Speaker 3: are promoting a certain discovery and it's wrong that's going
6:31
Speaker 3: to damage the entire field.
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Speaker 1: Yeahcent agree. And it's I'm lucky because because I'm both
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Speaker 1: a student and you know, a speaker, so I get
6:43
Speaker 1: to I get to learn in a different way and
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Speaker 1: understand and research and have these kind of light bulb
6:50
Speaker 1: moments and revelations, and then I go to talk, you know,
6:54
Speaker 1: like the next day, I got to talk to a
6:56
Speaker 1: room full of people, and I can I can unpas
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Speaker 1: my own research and my own not only the research,
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Speaker 1: but also my own thoughts and insights in a manner
7:07
Speaker 1: where like you said, now you're being the science communicator
7:11
Speaker 1: and you're trying to share these what can be complicated
7:14
Speaker 1: thoughts and ideas and constructs in a way which not
7:18
Speaker 1: only makes sense to people, but perhaps is a genesis
7:22
Speaker 1: for them to go and explore more. You know, Like
7:26
Speaker 1: even when I just say to people, do you ever
7:28
Speaker 1: think about how you think and why you think the
7:30
Speaker 1: way you think? And like the origin story of your thinking?
7:33
Speaker 1: You know? And people like this, so I don't, Yeah,
7:37
Speaker 1: and do you ever think really deeply think about how
7:40
Speaker 1: other people think? And without judging or critics, but just
7:44
Speaker 1: why does she think the way that she think? Where
7:47
Speaker 1: does that come from? And what is she thinking right now?
7:49
Speaker 1: And what is her experience not mine? You know, we're
7:52
Speaker 1: in the same conversation but not the same experience. I
7:55
Speaker 1: wonder what her experience is. And so when you know that.
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Speaker 1: I don't know who originally said it, but Stephen Covey said,
8:02
Speaker 1: seek first to understand and then to be understood. You know,
8:06
Speaker 1: just that if I can start when I'm in an
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Speaker 1: interpersonal exchange, whether it's me and one hundred or me
8:12
Speaker 1: in one or me in a podcast audience like we
8:16
Speaker 1: are now, and I can try to get some insight
8:19
Speaker 1: into who I'm talking to and I care about that,
8:24
Speaker 1: then I'm probably going to do a better job at
8:26
Speaker 1: building connection and rapport and you know trust, I guess
8:30
Speaker 1: over time.
8:32
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, well that was one of the major motivations
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Speaker 3: of writing my book, Pleased to Meet Me, was trying
8:37
Speaker 3: to understand not only myself, but other people who don't
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Speaker 3: operate the same way I do, or don't believe or
8:45
Speaker 3: think the same things. I think a lot of us
8:48
Speaker 3: and I'm not trying to, you know, you know, be
8:52
Speaker 3: mean to anyone here, but I think a lot of
8:54
Speaker 3: us just walk through life without thinking about such questions.
8:57
Speaker 3: We're kind of on automatic pilot zombie kind of if
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Speaker 3: you will. And all it takes sometimes is one person
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Speaker 3: to say, have you ever considered why you do this
9:09
Speaker 3: particular behavior or why someone else would never do such
9:13
Speaker 3: a thing? You know, just you know, those basic questions
9:17
Speaker 3: going back to the Greek philosophers who said no they self,
9:21
Speaker 3: which is something that can't be said enough in you know,
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Speaker 3: during the education process. And I don't think a lot
9:28
Speaker 3: of people let it sink in.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know, like you're saying you're not doing it,
9:36
Speaker 1: saying it to be mean, and you're not. I'm the same.
9:39
Speaker 1: It's like it's self awareness, not self loathing. It's like
9:42
Speaker 1: just yeah, you know, it's like do I get things
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Speaker 1: wrong all the time regularly, Okay, so don't beat yourself up.
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Speaker 1: Just recognize or try to recognize what you're doing wrong
9:53
Speaker 1: or where you're flawed, or where your ideas really don't
9:55
Speaker 1: match the reality or the facts. And then then you know,
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Speaker 1: open the awareness door and the humility door and the
10:02
Speaker 1: student's mind like just you know, it's it's that need
10:08
Speaker 1: to be right that is such a psychological and emotional
10:12
Speaker 1: and educational handicap. It's like absolutely, you know, if you
10:16
Speaker 1: have to be right, good luck being a good student.
10:21
Speaker 3: Yeah or yeah. You can get yourself into a lot
10:27
Speaker 3: of trouble that way. And I would never want to
10:30
Speaker 3: go through life with that kind of attitude because there's
10:33
Speaker 3: nothing more to learn, right, You're not growing, You're kind
10:37
Speaker 3: of just stunted and you're fruzen there. And to me,
10:40
Speaker 3: that's a really boring way to live.
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Speaker 1: Well, I think also, Doc, you know a lot of
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Speaker 1: people to your point of living kind of on autopilot
10:50
Speaker 1: or groundhog day. And it's not an offense because I
10:54
Speaker 1: think a lot of people realize that they are to
10:57
Speaker 1: an extent living unconsciously in that they tend to do
11:01
Speaker 1: the thing today that they did yesterday in the day
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Speaker 1: before and week before, the thing that didn't really work
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Speaker 1: the last hundred times. They are still doing it. You know.
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Speaker 1: And my listeners will be sick of me saying this,
11:14
Speaker 1: but I don't think I've said it to you. It's
11:16
Speaker 1: like one of the one of the common conversations I
11:20
Speaker 1: have with people when I'm sitting down one on one
11:22
Speaker 1: is you know, they will say to me something like,
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Speaker 1: you know where they are in their life, their job,
11:29
Speaker 1: their journey, their health, their whatever they say oh, this
11:32
Speaker 1: wasn't my plan. You know where they're currently at. This
11:36
Speaker 1: wasn't my plan. And I say, oh, okay, can I
11:39
Speaker 1: see the plan? And they're like what, I go the plan?
11:42
Speaker 1: Can I see it? And they're like, what do you mean?
11:46
Speaker 1: I said? You just said this wasn't my plan. Can
11:48
Speaker 1: I see the plan? And they're like, well, there's no plan.
11:52
Speaker 1: You know, there's no plan plan. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so
11:56
Speaker 1: it's yeah, I get what you're saying. Yeah, you know,
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Speaker 1: it's like and we all do. I mean, there's been
12:02
Speaker 1: periods of my time where periods of my time, periods
12:05
Speaker 1: of my life where I was doing things that, especially
12:08
Speaker 1: with my body and my food because I had food
12:10
Speaker 1: addictions and I had all kinds of bullshit emotional and
12:14
Speaker 1: psychological and sociological and behavioral stuff going on where I
12:19
Speaker 1: was for extended periods of time doing things that didn't work.
12:24
Speaker 1: And the reason that I did it, among others was
12:28
Speaker 1: one of the reasons was, you know, because it gave
12:30
Speaker 1: me instant gratification, you know, so overcoming that as well,
12:34
Speaker 1: that need to get pleasure right now, and because I'll
12:38
Speaker 1: fix it soon, but not today, I'll fix it soon.
12:41
Speaker 1: I'll start Monday I'll start January one, but not today.
12:45
Speaker 3: Yeah, which is really hard because that's a little bit
12:48
Speaker 3: against the grain of human nature when we evolved long ago.
12:53
Speaker 3: And I know I see this a lot, so I
12:55
Speaker 3: hope your regular listeners are not getting tired of me
12:57
Speaker 3: ramble on about how important it is to evaluate our
13:01
Speaker 3: current behavior in the context of what our ancestors long
13:05
Speaker 3: ago did. Because we lived as hunter gatherers for hundreds
13:10
Speaker 3: of thousands of years, so those behavioral patterns are deeply
13:14
Speaker 3: ingrained into our brain and dictate a lot of our
13:18
Speaker 3: actions at a subconscious level. So we very often need
13:22
Speaker 3: to step back and analyze our behavior and why we're
13:26
Speaker 3: doing it that way. And when you think about hunter
13:29
Speaker 3: gatherer lifestyles and you can you can read lots of books.
13:32
Speaker 3: It's fascinating literature, but you really gain a lot of
13:37
Speaker 3: insights into maybe some of the irrational things that human
13:42
Speaker 3: beings do, or some of these automatic habits that you're
13:46
Speaker 3: talking about that obviously aren't good for us, and yet
13:49
Speaker 3: we continue to do them time and time again. These
13:52
Speaker 3: are patterns that if you extrapolate back to our ancient past,
13:56
Speaker 3: you can see those sorts of behaviors and since they
14:01
Speaker 3: were with us for about one hundred thousand years. And
14:04
Speaker 3: you know, we've only civilization has been around as we
14:08
Speaker 3: know it only for about ten thousand years, which is
14:10
Speaker 3: the blink of an eye in evolutionary terms. We really
14:14
Speaker 3: haven't come to grips with the modern world and how
14:20
Speaker 3: we're evolutionarily designed.
14:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent. I wanted to. Okay, so by
14:29
Speaker 1: the way, everyone, we haven't done this. We're going to
14:31
Speaker 1: get to it. I want the second half of the
14:34
Speaker 1: show to be all about doctor Bale's books. So it's
14:36
Speaker 1: called Please to Meet Me, Jean's Germs and the curious
14:38
Speaker 1: forces that make us who we are. I'm listening to
14:42
Speaker 1: it at the moment in between my other stuff. But
14:45
Speaker 1: I'm not just saying this because you're here. I was
14:47
Speaker 1: actually talking to somebody this morning. They said, what are
14:50
Speaker 1: you doing, and I said, I've got our bunch of
14:51
Speaker 1: stuff on you being one of the things I add
14:53
Speaker 1: on in Inverted Commas, and I said, you've got to
14:57
Speaker 1: read or listen to his book. It's it's it is
15:00
Speaker 1: really brilliant, and it is what I love about your book.
15:04
Speaker 1: There's such good use of humor and storytelling, and anyone,
15:10
Speaker 1: anyone can understand it, like it's relevant for everyone. Like
15:14
Speaker 1: there's really nobody that it's not relevant for because we've
15:17
Speaker 1: all got we've all got Jens germs and bloody, we
15:21
Speaker 1: all have bodies, and we've all got to navigate and
15:23
Speaker 1: negotiate health and wellness and life and performance. So I
15:28
Speaker 1: prefer listening, but either buy a hard copy or have
15:32
Speaker 1: a listen everyone. But I want to come to that
15:34
Speaker 1: in a moment because I've got a few questions out
15:36
Speaker 1: of the book, or a few topics out of the
15:39
Speaker 1: book I want to cover with you. But I wanted
15:42
Speaker 1: to know your thoughts on And it's probably not something
15:44
Speaker 1: you talk about a lot or think about a lot,
15:48
Speaker 1: but it intersects with my world and your world. There's
15:51
Speaker 1: a bit of a bro science term that which is
15:55
Speaker 1: biological age. It is used legitimately in science, but also
16:00
Speaker 1: you know, like there are some really crappy protocols that
16:03
Speaker 1: people do are a bioage test in twelve minutes, doc,
16:07
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden they go, oh, well,
16:09
Speaker 1: I'm forty eight, but my biological age is thirty two
16:12
Speaker 1: because they've done I don't know, a questionnaire, and you know,
16:17
Speaker 1: some some really basic not very scientifically valid test from
16:21
Speaker 1: one of a better term, But what are your thoughts
16:25
Speaker 1: around one? You know?
16:26
Speaker 3: So?
16:28
Speaker 1: And if anyone's thinking, what do I mean some chronological age?
16:31
Speaker 1: Obviously I'm sixty one. Biological age, in I guess Layman's terms,
16:37
Speaker 1: is you know how my body works in inverted commas,
16:40
Speaker 1: from a functional point of view, from a health point
16:42
Speaker 1: of view, from a bunch, but basically how well my
16:46
Speaker 1: body works. And I guess biologically, physiologically and functionally how
16:51
Speaker 1: my body is going for my age. It's probably not
16:54
Speaker 1: a great explanation, but it's in the ballpark. But what
16:57
Speaker 1: are your thoughts around biological college versus chronological age? Is
17:02
Speaker 1: it term that you use or not?
17:05
Speaker 3: It's not a term that I use or come across
17:08
Speaker 3: very often, But I get the gist of what the
17:10
Speaker 3: idea is about. You know, you have your however many
17:15
Speaker 3: laps you went around the sun versus what sort of
17:19
Speaker 3: health attributes you exhibit? And I think, you know, being
17:26
Speaker 3: a scientist about this sort of thing, I'm very skeptical
17:29
Speaker 3: about these sorts of claims because they don't seem to
17:31
Speaker 3: be backed up by evidence of any kind. They just
17:34
Speaker 3: seem to be someone's idea. It reminds me of the
17:39
Speaker 3: whole dog years. I mean, you can say, oh, my
17:41
Speaker 3: dog's eight, but in human years, that's like one hundred
17:44
Speaker 3: and ten, So my dog's really old. No, your dog's eight,
17:49
Speaker 3: and your dog is eight years old and it acts
17:52
Speaker 3: like an eight year old dog. You know, you don't
17:55
Speaker 3: need to translate it into human years to understand better
18:01
Speaker 3: what the dog is going to be like. So when
18:04
Speaker 3: someone has a chronological chronological age of let's just say fifty,
18:07
Speaker 3: nice round number, and they want to say that I
18:10
Speaker 3: have a biological age of thirty two, what does that
18:15
Speaker 3: mean exactly? And I don't think you can paint it
18:18
Speaker 3: with such a broad brush because there may be some
18:22
Speaker 3: features of you that feel younger okay, yes, but there's
18:27
Speaker 3: other features that you can't turn the clock back on,
18:31
Speaker 3: you know. So I would really like to scrutinize the
18:36
Speaker 3: algorithms or the equations that they use to deduce what
18:41
Speaker 3: a biological age is and what in fact that what
18:46
Speaker 3: the definition of that truly is, because I'll be honest
18:50
Speaker 3: with you, Craig, and you know, on some days I
18:54
Speaker 3: feel like my chronological age is far less than my
18:59
Speaker 3: biological age. Yeah, but then I have other days where
19:02
Speaker 3: it's flip flop. So I think it's a little transient
19:06
Speaker 3: if you will. It's it's not like a stable concept. Yeah, well,
19:11
Speaker 3: depends on how you're feeling, what you eat, you know what,
19:14
Speaker 3: what illness you might have. Who knows one hundred percent.
19:19
Speaker 1: I feel like, sorry about my blurred head. I don't
19:22
Speaker 1: know what's going on there. I feel yeah, like my
19:25
Speaker 1: shoulders feel like they're about one hundred and ten years old.
19:30
Speaker 1: Both my rot.
19:31
Speaker 3: Dog in dog ears they are only five, So.
19:35
Speaker 1: That's very funny. Yeah, both my rotator cuffs should be
19:38
Speaker 1: in an old person's home. But you know, like my
19:43
Speaker 1: actual muscle strength is probably atypical for my age. But yeah,
19:47
Speaker 1: you're right, there are some things that depending on you know,
19:51
Speaker 1: how it's measured and all of that. But I've just
19:53
Speaker 1: got it here in front of me. And again, this
19:56
Speaker 1: is this is not great science. Estimating biological aid. It
20:00
Speaker 1: involves measuring a variety of biomarkers and factors that reflect
20:04
Speaker 1: the body's physiological condition, which may differ from chronological age.
20:08
Speaker 1: The key variables and factors commonly used to estimate bioage
20:13
Speaker 1: so epigenetic markers, DNA methylation, telemeal length, inflammatory markers, c
20:19
Speaker 1: reactive protein inter lukens, metabolic health, glucose metabolism, cholesterol levels.
20:24
Speaker 1: But even with all this mitochondrial function, physical and functional movements,
20:29
Speaker 1: cardiovascular health, blood pressure, arterial stiffness, body composition, mass, fat
20:34
Speaker 1: hormone levels, bah bah. But even with that, I don't
20:37
Speaker 1: know who developed that and whether or not, you know,
20:40
Speaker 1: those protocols have been validated in any shape or form.
20:43
Speaker 1: But yeah, but it I think the fact remains that sometimes, Yeah,
20:50
Speaker 1: our level of function is older or younger in inverted
20:53
Speaker 1: commas than our laps around the sun.
20:57
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, I know my biological age goes down with
21:00
Speaker 3: a cup of coffee, so you know who knows coffee?
21:05
Speaker 1: Take me mind changes over the day. I'm about forty
21:10
Speaker 1: when I get up. Yeah, I'm about ninety two by
21:12
Speaker 1: eleven o'clock.
21:14
Speaker 3: There you go. Just before we leave this topic for
21:17
Speaker 3: the for the benefit of the listeners, there may be
21:20
Speaker 3: something too, like individual markers that you spoke about, like
21:25
Speaker 3: telomere length. Telomere integrity is definitely correlated with cellular aging.
21:31
Speaker 3: But how all these biomarkers interact with one another. We're
21:35
Speaker 3: just in the infancy of understanding all of those complexities. Okay,
21:40
Speaker 3: So I would hate for someone to hear that they
21:43
Speaker 3: have a biomarker that makes them, you know, that is
21:48
Speaker 3: supposed to be unhealthy or only seen in elderly people.
21:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't want to.
21:55
Speaker 3: Mislead them with that sort of information. And by the
21:57
Speaker 3: same token, you don't want to mislead someone who genuine
22:00
Speaker 3: little like might need to take a statin or something.
22:04
Speaker 3: But hey, your chronal, your biological age is much younger,
22:07
Speaker 3: and then they might not have they might avoid a
22:10
Speaker 3: life saving medicine you know that older people take. So
22:15
Speaker 3: I would I would be very wary about those sorts
22:18
Speaker 3: of comparisons because we simply don't know enough about how
22:22
Speaker 3: the body works holistically. When when you talk about these
22:27
Speaker 3: sorts of biomarkers, now that said, there might be truth
22:29
Speaker 3: to one or two of them.
22:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and I think I think one of the
22:36
Speaker 1: dangers right now, and I'm probably guilty of this as
22:39
Speaker 1: well a little bit, is that a lot of people
22:43
Speaker 1: get their information from Instagram or Facebook or or YouTube
22:48
Speaker 1: or the Bloody Youth Project or do you know what
22:51
Speaker 1: I mean.
22:51
Speaker 3: It's like, and there's irresponsible podcasters.
22:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, but I mean it is true
22:58
Speaker 1: and you need to and all. So then we get
23:00
Speaker 1: people who have a little bit of knowledge about an
23:05
Speaker 1: area but not much knowledge like zero knowledge and other
23:09
Speaker 1: other related and important areas, you know. So it's like
23:12
Speaker 1: some people might know a lot whatever, for example, about nutrition,
23:17
Speaker 1: but nothing about sleep or training or physiological adaptation in
23:23
Speaker 1: other ways, or stress or anxiety or the impact of
23:26
Speaker 1: environment on the body or you know, and so all
23:29
Speaker 1: of their their solution is all food based, you know,
23:32
Speaker 1: which again is looking through a particular prism you.
23:35
Speaker 3: Know, yeah, buyer beware, you know. And it's getting tough
23:42
Speaker 3: nowadays to discern in some cases who really knows their
23:46
Speaker 3: stuff and who doesn't. So, you know, it helps if
23:50
Speaker 3: people are being honest, but when people are chasing lakes
23:53
Speaker 3: and follows and advertiser money, there's that integrity kind of
23:57
Speaker 3: goes down the dream. Sometimes I always fall back on
24:03
Speaker 3: looking for the experts who actually know their field very well.
24:07
Speaker 3: So like if you and I started launching into a
24:10
Speaker 3: talk on let's say, you know, black holes or something
24:15
Speaker 3: like that, I am not qualified to talk about that.
24:19
Speaker 3: You know. I can throw a whole bunch of garbage
24:22
Speaker 3: and jargon around that reflects my superficial knowledge of these things,
24:27
Speaker 3: but that's not something I'm qualified to talk about it.
24:30
Speaker 3: We can still have a conversation, but people would have
24:33
Speaker 3: to know, Hey, he knows about epigenetics and genes and stuff,
24:37
Speaker 3: but he knows about as much as black holes as
24:41
Speaker 3: you know that dog he was talking about earlier.
24:44
Speaker 1: So well, if we start talking about teleportation, then my
24:48
Speaker 1: ears are going to prick up, because that would be
24:52
Speaker 1: very good.
24:53
Speaker 3: That would be cool.
24:54
Speaker 1: Let's lean in a little bit to your books. So
24:57
Speaker 1: the tenth time, everyone, please meet me germs and the
25:00
Speaker 1: curious forces that makes who we are, Doctor Bill Sullivan.
25:05
Speaker 1: So there's a bunch of themes in the book and
25:07
Speaker 1: a bunch of kind of subject matter that you that
25:10
Speaker 1: you cover before I open the door and go tell
25:14
Speaker 1: us about this. Is there are there particular thing like
25:17
Speaker 1: which do you want to do it this way where
25:19
Speaker 1: I just riff and then you tell us about that,
25:22
Speaker 1: Or are there three or four or five key things
25:25
Speaker 1: out of the book that you would just rather that
25:28
Speaker 1: you know are broadly relevant you want to share with us.
25:31
Speaker 1: I don't mind which way we go.
25:34
Speaker 3: Ad or mind either. Just to maybe explain a little
25:39
Speaker 3: bit to the audience that the mean theme of the
25:42
Speaker 3: book It's kind of like an updated user manual for
25:46
Speaker 3: the human body, not just in a physical way, but
25:49
Speaker 3: in a mental way as well. Because what got me
25:52
Speaker 3: interested in it stems from the work we do in
25:55
Speaker 3: my research lab, you know, where we study a parasite
25:58
Speaker 3: that infects a billion and over a billion people and,
26:03
Speaker 3: according to some studies, can affect their behaviors. So this,
26:06
Speaker 3: you know, put that light bulb over my head. What
26:09
Speaker 3: other things might be in our body that control us
26:13
Speaker 3: or influence us that we don't know about, you know,
26:17
Speaker 3: because we need to educate ourselves about how these forces
26:20
Speaker 3: work individually and collectively, so that we can understand who
26:25
Speaker 3: we are, why we do the things we do, and
26:27
Speaker 3: just as importantly, why don't others act the same way
26:31
Speaker 3: we do. Why do they have different beliefs, you know,
26:33
Speaker 3: different habits and so on. So that got me to
26:37
Speaker 3: thinking about genes. That's a pretty obvious hidden feature. You know,
26:41
Speaker 3: most people don't know what genes they have, and most
26:44
Speaker 3: people don't realize that genes go far beyond our physical makeup.
26:49
Speaker 3: They govern a lot of things about our personality and
26:52
Speaker 3: behavior and can be quite strong influencers. It's not to
26:56
Speaker 3: say we're genetically predetermined by any means. Because the second
26:59
Speaker 3: force I talk about as epigenetics, which is how your
27:03
Speaker 3: environment can like turn volume knobs of those genes up
27:07
Speaker 3: and down. So there's certainly room within you your genetic
27:13
Speaker 3: limitations if you will, to change things, so the environment
27:18
Speaker 3: can be critically important. And then I talk about microbes
27:21
Speaker 3: like the one I mentioned earlier, the parasite and the
27:23
Speaker 3: brain that might affect activity. Well, lo and behold, that's
27:27
Speaker 3: just a tip of the iceberg. You know, there's three
27:29
Speaker 3: pounds of bacteria, fungi and other microbes in our gut
27:34
Speaker 3: that increasingly evidence shows has a profound effect on our
27:40
Speaker 3: physical and mental health. And these studies are just mind
27:43
Speaker 3: blowing and really create an entire new arena for potential
27:48
Speaker 3: medical intervention. And of course there's evolutionary ghosts. You mentioned
27:54
Speaker 3: this a little bit at the beginning of the podcast, Craig,
27:56
Speaker 3: where a lot of our behavior is embedded with in
28:00
Speaker 3: evolutionary psychology. So a lot of the things we do,
28:03
Speaker 3: a lot of the things we worry about, a lot
28:05
Speaker 3: of the ways we eat, what sort of foods we're
28:08
Speaker 3: attracted to, what sort of bodies we're attracted to, all
28:12
Speaker 3: have a deep evolutionary past, and it is remarkably insightful
28:19
Speaker 3: to keep that in mind when you're trying to understand
28:22
Speaker 3: human behavior. So the book tries to tie all that together,
28:27
Speaker 3: these multiple forces operating under the hood, because if we
28:32
Speaker 3: understand them, then we can understand ourselves and one another
28:36
Speaker 3: in a more productive fashion.
28:39
Speaker 1: So, given the influence and the impact about biology ad genetics,
28:47
Speaker 1: do you think we have as much control over our
28:49
Speaker 1: choices and behaviors as we think we do.
28:54
Speaker 3: I was really hoping that was the case when I
28:56
Speaker 3: began the research for this book, because I liked to
29:00
Speaker 3: think that there's still a great deal of agency associated
29:05
Speaker 3: with being human. And this has been debated for a
29:08
Speaker 3: very long time, and there's, you know, debates that are
29:11
Speaker 3: still raging today. Some people are we don't have any
29:16
Speaker 3: free will whatsoever. Everything is predetermined. We live in a
29:19
Speaker 3: deterministic universe, so you know, how can we possibly have
29:23
Speaker 3: free will? And then there's others that says we've evolved
29:28
Speaker 3: to a point with such a sophisticated brain and ability
29:32
Speaker 3: to make decisions, weigh pros and cons and all that,
29:35
Speaker 3: that clearly there is some level of free will. And
29:37
Speaker 3: there's a whole bunch of people in the middle, and
29:40
Speaker 3: I think I don't fall in the middle of that debate.
29:43
Speaker 3: I skew towards less and less free will, but I
29:47
Speaker 3: would still like to leave that door open. It just
29:49
Speaker 3: feels natural to me. But I know that that is
29:53
Speaker 3: not evidence. That is not a good, you know, experimental
29:56
Speaker 3: way to prove a case for free will. Well, just
30:00
Speaker 3: because you feel like you have it. Our brain makes
30:04
Speaker 3: us feel many things it likes to trick us, so
30:06
Speaker 3: that could very well be another one of the brain's tricks.
30:10
Speaker 3: But like I said as I was researching this book,
30:14
Speaker 3: when you think about, you know, you don't control what
30:17
Speaker 3: genes you were born with. You don't control your prenatal environment,
30:21
Speaker 3: which alters a lot of the expression of those genes.
30:25
Speaker 3: You don't control the environment you had as a young child,
30:28
Speaker 3: which configures the settings on these genes, and a lot
30:34
Speaker 3: of data says that that can't change, you know, or
30:37
Speaker 3: at least can't change much after it's been pre set.
30:42
Speaker 3: And then you think about the evolutionary constraints that were
30:45
Speaker 3: under So at the end of the day, long winded
30:49
Speaker 3: answer to your question, but it's a really insightful philosophical
30:53
Speaker 3: question that I think people should talk about more. Is
30:56
Speaker 3: that I think the circle of free will has shrunk
30:59
Speaker 3: dramatically from this from when I went into the research
31:03
Speaker 3: on this book to when I finished writing it. But
31:06
Speaker 3: I still feel like I could be a bird in
31:08
Speaker 3: the cage, you know, and there's still a little room
31:10
Speaker 3: to walk around and sim songs and be happy. So
31:15
Speaker 3: that's that's what gets me through the day.
31:18
Speaker 1: And also, yeah, well one that's very insightful, too mildly
31:24
Speaker 1: terrifying to think that I don't have any come just
31:29
Speaker 1: I'm just at the whim of my genetics.
31:32
Speaker 3: You are a bird in the cage.
31:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, But I think also, you know, one of the
31:38
Speaker 1: one of the things too, is like what is what
31:42
Speaker 1: is comfortable for us? You know? It's like you said,
31:46
Speaker 1: you'd like to think that or I feel like and
31:49
Speaker 1: that's the thing, isn't It's like what I want to
31:52
Speaker 1: be true might not be true, and it might not
31:55
Speaker 1: suit my story and it might not suit my you know,
31:59
Speaker 1: emotional kind of whatever, you know, But that's that's the thing.
32:04
Speaker 1: Could you give us an example, I think you said
32:06
Speaker 1: something like obviously talking about epigenetics, the way that our
32:11
Speaker 1: our correct me if I've fuck anything up, because I'm
32:14
Speaker 1: not you, but we can turn up or down the
32:16
Speaker 1: volume on certain genes depending on environment might have that.
32:21
Speaker 1: Could you give a practical example of how something might
32:26
Speaker 1: be affected by environment, like a real world Like when
32:30
Speaker 1: you say that, I'm like, I'm trying to think, what
32:32
Speaker 1: does that look like in the real world for one
32:35
Speaker 1: of our listeners.
32:37
Speaker 3: Oh? Sure, So there there's many many examples out there.
32:42
Speaker 3: In the book goes into quite a few some of
32:46
Speaker 3: the more tangible examples that I think, you know, based
32:50
Speaker 3: on the talks they've given that people hook up to
32:54
Speaker 3: or that you know you're just exercise can really alter
32:59
Speaker 3: genus expression in the muscle groups and some of the
33:02
Speaker 3: organs that are benefiting from exercise. So, for example, there
33:06
Speaker 3: was a nicely controlled study I forget what country this
33:10
Speaker 3: was done in, but people were asked the subjects of
33:15
Speaker 3: this study were asked to exercise with one leg but
33:19
Speaker 3: the other leg stayed inactive, and they did this for
33:23
Speaker 3: I don't know, three or four weeks, and then at
33:25
Speaker 3: the end of the study they took some blood samples
33:29
Speaker 3: and looked at epigenetic patterns on the genes, which is
33:33
Speaker 3: basically a readout of which genes expression got altered. So
33:39
Speaker 3: in the leg that received exercise, there was a lot
33:44
Speaker 3: of epigenetic changes turning on genes that correspond with better health,
33:50
Speaker 3: better metabolism, and the other leg this didn't happen. So
33:55
Speaker 3: you can easily change your genes expression just by doing
34:00
Speaker 3: some very basic things. Another really remarkable study, and this
34:04
Speaker 3: is this is one that really blows my mind, is
34:07
Speaker 3: that meditators like monks you were talking about, master meditators,
34:14
Speaker 3: people who are very good and well practiced in the
34:17
Speaker 3: art of meditation, when they study their epigenetic patterns, they
34:26
Speaker 3: have changes at genes that are linked to stress and anxiety,
34:32
Speaker 3: and they're much they're dialed way back down. And then
34:36
Speaker 3: they took that as like a justification to see what
34:40
Speaker 3: would happen in your average Joe if they started to meditate,
34:45
Speaker 3: and in a very short time, I think it was
34:47
Speaker 3: like two or four weeks, just like a half hour
34:50
Speaker 3: of meditation a day, this guided meditation that they listen to,
34:54
Speaker 3: they started seeing the same epigenetic changes at their genes
34:59
Speaker 3: that are die piling down stress and anxiety. It's pretty remarkable.
35:04
Speaker 3: And in addition to that, they see epigenetic changes at
35:07
Speaker 3: physical health points too, So like genes that would be
35:10
Speaker 3: associated with lower blood pressure, for example. And it just
35:16
Speaker 3: blows my mind that there's something we can do mentally,
35:20
Speaker 3: such as meditation, that can actually alter the epigenetic patterns
35:25
Speaker 3: on our genes, which at the end of the day
35:27
Speaker 3: changes gene expression. So this gives us great hope that
35:32
Speaker 3: there can be very simple things that we can do
35:35
Speaker 3: in our lives. A better diet, better exercise, and stress
35:40
Speaker 3: reduction techniques like guided meditation or maybe like nature walks,
35:44
Speaker 3: things like that can make very quick alterations in our
35:49
Speaker 3: genes that could explain the health benefits that most people
35:53
Speaker 3: receive if they start engaging in these healthy activities.
35:58
Speaker 1: Yeah. One of the probably the terrible classifications that happens
36:03
Speaker 1: in exercise science and some other sciences is body type.
36:10
Speaker 1: And there are a bunch of different ones in different fields.
36:12
Speaker 1: But so endomorph, ectomorph, mesomorph you've heard of that, I
36:16
Speaker 1: guess have you heard of that again? Endomorph mesomorph, ecdomorph
36:23
Speaker 1: have you heard of that?
36:24
Speaker 3: I'm not sure?
36:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'll explain it for me. Yeah. Yeah, So
36:28
Speaker 1: an endomorph is a person. Now this is talk about
36:31
Speaker 1: a crap qualification or a crap classification, but this is
36:35
Speaker 1: what I got taught in my first degree excise science. Right,
36:38
Speaker 1: So people fall into one of three categories, generally allegedly
36:42
Speaker 1: your honor, that is, they are an ectomorph. And they
36:45
Speaker 1: call so people who struggle to gain fat and muscle
36:50
Speaker 1: a mesomorph. Somebody who's naturally more muscular, stocky, robust, athletic, powerful,
36:57
Speaker 1: you know, like a linebacker or something, or offensive lineman
37:01
Speaker 1: or you know, or a or a field athlete, shot
37:05
Speaker 1: put a thrower, anyone like that. And an endomorph is
37:09
Speaker 1: somebody who is predisposed to gain fat more easily and
37:13
Speaker 1: all of that. But the funny thing is that it's
37:16
Speaker 1: like in the real world, it doesn't work like that.
37:20
Speaker 1: Like almost nobody sits squarely in any of those categories.
37:26
Speaker 1: And if you hadn't looked at me at fourteen years
37:28
Speaker 1: of age, you would have said, oh, he is one
37:31
Speaker 1: hundred and two percent endomorph. And then if you looked
37:35
Speaker 1: at me now you would say, well, he's mesomorph, right,
37:38
Speaker 1: is one hundred percent mesomorph. But it's really just because
37:42
Speaker 1: of how I eat and how I live and how
37:44
Speaker 1: I move my body. And yeah, so it's it's it's
37:49
Speaker 1: funny how many things get passed off as science that
37:53
Speaker 1: we grew I grew up in that model anyway, where
37:56
Speaker 1: we would talk to clients and athletes all the time
38:00
Speaker 1: about the mesomorphic or enomorphic or ectomorphic genetic tendencies or predisposition,
38:06
Speaker 1: you know, but it's kind of bullshit.
38:10
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, yeah, yeah, Like for those sorts of traits,
38:14
Speaker 3: there's a lot of flexibility. There are very few traits
38:19
Speaker 3: that are like, you know, ninety to one hundred percent predictives,
38:23
Speaker 3: most of which are associated with disease states.
38:26
Speaker 1: But when you're.
38:26
Speaker 3: Talking about complex physical attributes and even more complicated behaviors,
38:34
Speaker 3: there's hundreds of genes, maybe thousands of genes that partake
38:38
Speaker 3: in that particular trait. So I think there's a lot
38:43
Speaker 3: of flexibility. So yeah, I get what you're saying. And
38:50
Speaker 3: it's it's all a matter of your environment too, as
38:53
Speaker 3: to what may be prompted those changes, you know, from
38:57
Speaker 3: struggling with weight and food to achieving a better lifestyle.
39:03
Speaker 3: What some people are going to have an easier time
39:05
Speaker 3: at that than others.
39:08
Speaker 1: What does your research doc tell us about the role
39:13
Speaker 1: of genetics in personality emotions? And you know, even the
39:20
Speaker 1: way that even now I don't know for what this
39:22
Speaker 1: is not science here, but for one of better term
39:24
Speaker 1: our worldview, the way that we think, the way that
39:26
Speaker 1: we process the world around us. How much of that?
39:31
Speaker 1: And I know it's I know, there's no definitive number,
39:33
Speaker 1: but tell us about that a little bit. You know,
39:36
Speaker 1: like if Craig Harper the same same body, same genetics.
39:40
Speaker 1: If I was raised next door to you in the
39:42
Speaker 1: States and mum and dad were Mormons, and you know,
39:47
Speaker 1: you know, I grew up in a different place, I
39:49
Speaker 1: was the same DNA.
39:51
Speaker 3: But I had fifteen kids by now, yeah.
39:55
Speaker 1: I'd have fifteen kids and four station wagons. But the
40:00
Speaker 1: shout out to my Mormon listeners, both of you, Yeah,
40:04
Speaker 1: what tell us about that?
40:08
Speaker 3: Right? So that's a perfect example against this genetic determinism
40:14
Speaker 3: concept where just because you have a certain blueprint, if
40:20
Speaker 3: you will in your DNA, how that blueprint unfolds is
40:24
Speaker 3: going to depend a great deal on the environment you're in.
40:29
Speaker 3: And that's the reason for that is epigenetics, because studies
40:33
Speaker 3: have been done on identical twins that have the same
40:37
Speaker 3: exact genome, you know, their clones. But if you set
40:41
Speaker 3: up the example where one of the twins moves away
40:44
Speaker 3: and does something very different or is in a very
40:47
Speaker 3: different environment, they're going to exhibit differences. And when scientists
40:52
Speaker 3: look at the epigenetic patterns on their genomes, despite the
40:56
Speaker 3: fact that all the genes are the same, that epigenetic
40:58
Speaker 3: patterns are not because because they were dictated by the
41:01
Speaker 3: different environments that they were in. And that's what brings
41:04
Speaker 3: about the differences in their appearance and behavior. Many people
41:09
Speaker 3: don't realize that identical twins, very often as they age
41:12
Speaker 3: do have subtle differences in their appearance and sometimes dramatic
41:16
Speaker 3: differences in their behavior.
41:20
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, one hundred percent, and you can you.
41:24
Speaker 3: Can take I think I might have said this example
41:26
Speaker 3: on your podcast before. But if I let's say I'm
41:30
Speaker 3: genetically predetermined to be six feet tall, yeah, you stick
41:36
Speaker 3: me in a malnourished environment, that's never going to happen.
41:39
Speaker 3: So your environment is really a critical variable in how
41:44
Speaker 3: your genetic program unfolds, how it manifests itself.
41:49
Speaker 1: Yeah. So can you can you talk about how some
41:54
Speaker 1: of the biological traits we've inherited through evolution ah maladaptive
42:01
Speaker 1: in modern society.
42:03
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Like the classic example is diet. So back
42:09
Speaker 3: when we were hunter gatherers, there was a really strong
42:14
Speaker 3: selective pressure to go after high calorie foods because they
42:18
Speaker 3: were extremely rare back then. So we're talking about sugars
42:22
Speaker 3: and fats. Why do they taste so to us? It's
42:26
Speaker 3: because we are evolutionarily designed to seek out sweet flavors
42:32
Speaker 3: and fats for their high colure content. They gave us
42:35
Speaker 3: an abundance of energy and an environment that really didn't
42:39
Speaker 3: have a lot of calories. There was a strong selective
42:43
Speaker 3: pressure to develop a sweet tooth and a taste for fats,
42:46
Speaker 3: high calorie foods, salts another thing that we have a
42:50
Speaker 3: taste for. Those items are not rare anymore. They're super abundant.
42:56
Speaker 3: It is so easy to get a ton of sugar, fats,
43:00
Speaker 3: and salt in contrast to the lifestyles our ancestors led.
43:05
Speaker 3: So we are biologically tuned to still seek out sugar
43:11
Speaker 3: and fats, but unfortunately we're an environment where they're readily
43:15
Speaker 3: accessible and people can just continue to eat them all
43:18
Speaker 3: day long. That would have been unheard of in the
43:21
Speaker 3: lifestyle that we had for about one hundred thousand years.
43:24
Speaker 3: So that's what scientists call a genetic mismatch. It is
43:28
Speaker 3: a mismatch between our environment of long ago, the way
43:33
Speaker 3: we were evolutionarily you know, created, versus the environment we
43:38
Speaker 3: have today. Sedentary lifestyle is the same way many people
43:42
Speaker 3: struggle with weight because our lifestyle for most people is
43:46
Speaker 3: sitting down and doing things that don't burn a lot
43:49
Speaker 3: of calories. We don't get exercise, we don't move our
43:52
Speaker 3: bodies very much. That wasn't the case, you know, back
43:58
Speaker 3: on the savannah when we were hunting for food and
44:01
Speaker 3: looking for the vegetables and roots to eat, so there
44:05
Speaker 3: was a lot more activity than what we have now.
44:09
Speaker 3: So we've I kind of refer to this as we're
44:13
Speaker 3: victims of our own success. We've created a world where
44:17
Speaker 3: there's abundant calories, there's very little need to exercise, you know,
44:21
Speaker 3: because there's a lot of people that's an unpleasant activity. Yes,
44:26
Speaker 3: but you don't need to do that if you don't
44:28
Speaker 3: want to. So we've created a world that our body
44:32
Speaker 3: is just not well suited to fit. It's like we're
44:35
Speaker 3: a square peg, but the world we made is round.
44:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's like that's right. It's like life used
44:44
Speaker 1: to be uncomfortable, like practically uncomfortable for most of our
44:50
Speaker 1: human timeline or evolutionary timeline, because we had to hunt
44:53
Speaker 1: we had to gather, we had to grow, we had
44:54
Speaker 1: to fight, we had to find water. There was no electricity,
44:57
Speaker 1: there were no fridgides, there was no you know. It's like,
45:01
Speaker 1: and now we most I mean, I'm generalizing that I
45:06
Speaker 1: could be wrong, but I feel like most people's priority
45:09
Speaker 1: on some level is comfort, you know, And like nobody
45:13
Speaker 1: wants discomfort, nobody wants uncertainty, nobody wants the unknown or
45:19
Speaker 1: the unfamiliar. Everyone wants to know what's coming. Everyone wants
45:23
Speaker 1: to you know, well it's a bit warm, turn on
45:25
Speaker 1: the air conditioning, or it's a bit cold, turn on
45:27
Speaker 1: the heat, you know. And I understand all of that.
45:31
Speaker 1: I'm not totally different either. But it's like, it's in
45:33
Speaker 1: this pursuit or comfort and certainty and predictability that we've
45:39
Speaker 1: made ourselves more vulnerable in a bad way, not vulnerable
45:43
Speaker 1: in a good way. And like the very thing that
45:46
Speaker 1: we talk about, especially in corporate land, that I inhabit
45:50
Speaker 1: probably more than you. In corporate land, they're always talking
45:53
Speaker 1: about resilience, but the way that we live creates the
45:57
Speaker 1: opposite of resilience. It creates weakness, it creates dysfunction, it
46:02
Speaker 1: creates a fucking plethora of problems sociological, emotional, psychological, and physiological,
46:08
Speaker 1: because we are so concerned with getting on the couch,
46:13
Speaker 1: you know, the sofa, either literal or metaphoric, and we're
46:17
Speaker 1: always going to do the hard thing soon, but not today.
46:20
Speaker 1: I think we've backed ourselves into a metaphoric corner in
46:24
Speaker 1: some ways.
46:25
Speaker 3: Yeah, it does. And that's one of the things I
46:29
Speaker 3: try to stress in the book too, is I'm trying
46:32
Speaker 3: to open people's eyes to this mismatch between the world
46:36
Speaker 3: we inhabit today and what our bodies and minds are,
46:41
Speaker 3: you know, should be doing, you know. And the way
46:43
Speaker 3: to I think better well being is not necessarily to
46:50
Speaker 3: live like our ancestors did. I don't want to deprive anyone,
46:53
Speaker 3: especially myself, of air conditioning or heat this winter. I
46:58
Speaker 3: like it comfort. I'm not trying to talk anybody out
47:02
Speaker 3: of that. But I also like the comfort of not
47:06
Speaker 3: having heart disease, you know, of not having you know,
47:10
Speaker 3: brittle bones.
47:12
Speaker 1: You know.
47:12
Speaker 3: I want to eat well and exercise so that I
47:15
Speaker 3: can keep my telomeres as long as possible. Right, So
47:21
Speaker 3: you have to think about comfort in a different way.
47:24
Speaker 3: And I go back to what you said earlier about
47:28
Speaker 3: instant gratification. This is the concept we need to kind
47:32
Speaker 3: of exercise out of our mind. We need to get
47:35
Speaker 3: instant gratification off the front burner and put it on
47:39
Speaker 3: the back burner. Why because a lot of instant gratification
47:43
Speaker 3: will make you happy in the short term, but will
47:45
Speaker 3: make you miserable in the long term, and that leads
47:48
Speaker 3: to unhappiness and a reduction in the quality of life.
47:54
Speaker 3: So if you can put aside some of the sweets
47:58
Speaker 3: and eat more healthy, if you can get up off
48:01
Speaker 3: the couch and go for a walk or a run,
48:04
Speaker 3: those are going to lead to better physical outcomes obviously,
48:10
Speaker 3: but it will also increase your well being at a
48:12
Speaker 3: at a mental health level as well. And so it's
48:17
Speaker 3: a different kind of comfort, you know, going for going
48:20
Speaker 3: more for sustainable content throughout your entire life versus a
48:25
Speaker 3: whole bunch of instant gratification right now with a bunch
48:30
Speaker 3: of misery ahead.
48:32
Speaker 1: Well, I think you know that the truth is that
48:36
Speaker 1: and I say this too many times, but it never
48:38
Speaker 1: isn't true. I don't think is that the you know,
48:41
Speaker 1: the thing that we want isn't always the thing that
48:44
Speaker 1: we need in terms of our own you know, personal
48:48
Speaker 1: welfare and you know, longevity and health span and all
48:51
Speaker 1: of those things. And like that, you think about how
48:56
Speaker 1: many things are sold on the premise of instant or quick.
49:03
Speaker 1: You know, everyone wants a hack, everyone wants a shortcut,
49:06
Speaker 1: everyone wants two minute abs, everyone wants to you know,
49:10
Speaker 1: it's like that's what sells. I mean, most companies, most marketers,
49:14
Speaker 1: most branding people know that if they can if they
49:18
Speaker 1: can trick you or you know, convince you that you
49:23
Speaker 1: can get where you want to get with our thing,
49:26
Speaker 1: the thing that we're selling, and you'll get there quicker
49:29
Speaker 1: and easier, and the thing that we're selling will do
49:34
Speaker 1: most of the work.
49:35
Speaker 3: Therefore you don't have to Well, that thing is going
49:38
Speaker 3: to sell absolutely. I'm glad you brought that up, because
49:42
Speaker 3: that is a point that I also make multiple times
49:44
Speaker 3: in the book and a lot of the subsequent writing,
49:47
Speaker 3: the articles they've written afterwards, because everyone comes to me,
49:52
Speaker 3: and you know, people talk about this all the time,
49:54
Speaker 3: about these life hacks, these shortcuts, most of which have
49:59
Speaker 3: no evidence behind them at all, And just because something
50:02
Speaker 3: works for one person doesn't mean it's going to work
50:05
Speaker 3: for you. The it is utterly boring, but the best
50:10
Speaker 3: advice you can you can receive is eat better, exercise more.
50:15
Speaker 3: That's all you need to do. All these other little
50:17
Speaker 3: hacks you know, TikTok videos, these wellness, eat these herbs,
50:23
Speaker 3: take these supplements, give me your money, and give me
50:25
Speaker 3: your money. You can save yourself a lot of money
50:30
Speaker 3: and heartache just by doing what your parents always told
50:34
Speaker 3: you to do.
50:35
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
50:37
Speaker 3: Oh.
50:37
Speaker 1: And also you know that the idea that you know,
50:44
Speaker 1: like move move better, eat better, well that doesn't make
50:48
Speaker 1: anyone any money, doc, I.
50:49
Speaker 3: Mean exactly, And that's how it should be. That's how exactly.
50:53
Speaker 3: That's what I'm trying to I'm trying to help people,
50:56
Speaker 3: you know, don't waste your money on this.
50:58
Speaker 1: Stuff, exactly. And this is why, you know, it's like
51:02
Speaker 1: the just eat better and move better. People roll their eyes,
51:07
Speaker 1: They're like, yeah, all right, don't get it. But what
51:09
Speaker 1: do I do though, I'm like, hell, you know, all right?
51:13
Speaker 1: I used to say I still do. Sometimes I'd say,
51:16
Speaker 1: write me a list of what you eat, and then
51:19
Speaker 1: don't change what you eat. Just write me a list
51:21
Speaker 1: of what you eat for a week, or time you
51:22
Speaker 1: go to bed, what time you get up, write down
51:24
Speaker 1: all your exercise. Be as exact as you can with
51:27
Speaker 1: all of it and just bring me seven days worth
51:30
Speaker 1: of information and we'll just start with that. There's no
51:32
Speaker 1: I'm not going to tear you apart. There's no annihilation
51:36
Speaker 1: or humiliation. There's just like, because all you're doing is
51:39
Speaker 1: putting data on pages for me or on a computer
51:41
Speaker 1: or whatever. And then when I see what you eat
51:44
Speaker 1: micros and macros and energy in and out and sets
51:46
Speaker 1: and reps and volume and walking and distance and you know, sleep,
51:50
Speaker 1: and then we can start to figure out, oh, well,
51:52
Speaker 1: this is what you typically to do. This is your
51:54
Speaker 1: normal operating system and what you look and feel and
51:58
Speaker 1: function like. That's the outcome. Right. Of course, there's some
52:01
Speaker 1: genetic influence there. But now let's look at how you
52:05
Speaker 1: are physically and how you want to be physically, and
52:09
Speaker 1: let's look at what you Well, then we can start
52:11
Speaker 1: to do some N equals one science, you know, where
52:14
Speaker 1: we go, Okay, well, why don't we try this. So
52:17
Speaker 1: you have alcohol four days a week, Let's for the
52:20
Speaker 1: next two weeks have ol cohol two days, you know,
52:23
Speaker 1: and let's not double it on those two days, you know,
52:27
Speaker 1: and you normally and you normally eat this kind of bread.
52:29
Speaker 1: Let's maybe try that kind of bread. And you know,
52:32
Speaker 1: you're not doing any any walking at all, so let's
52:35
Speaker 1: let's chuck in like five kilometers or three miles of
52:38
Speaker 1: walking that's going to take you about sixty minutes or
52:41
Speaker 1: you know. So all of a sudden, where we're starting
52:44
Speaker 1: to create a protocol that is for us, that will
52:47
Speaker 1: work for us. And it's like, there's two distinct benefits.
52:51
Speaker 1: One is the obvious benefits of changing our body, But
52:56
Speaker 1: the second and maybe more important benefit is who we
52:59
Speaker 1: become doing that hard thing. Who we become mentally and
53:04
Speaker 1: emotionally doing the hard thing that we don't want to do,
53:08
Speaker 1: especially when you can, because what you're doing is you're creating.
53:11
Speaker 1: Sorry I feel like I'm on my bloody high horse here,
53:14
Speaker 1: but what you're doing is you're creating a new and
53:17
Speaker 1: improved version of you. So now the thing that used
53:20
Speaker 1: to require discipline, self control, willpower and motivation, it doesn't
53:25
Speaker 1: anymore because you've created a new normal. And that's the
53:29
Speaker 1: ultimate goal with this stuff.
53:30
Speaker 3: I think I like the way you're having people wade
53:36
Speaker 3: into the water a little bit, taking those baby steps
53:39
Speaker 3: so it's not such an abrupt change. I think that
53:42
Speaker 3: is much more effective get people to nudge towards better behaviors,
53:48
Speaker 3: better healthier behaviors. That's going to be pretty successful. And then,
53:52
Speaker 3: like you said, those nudges, those small behavioral changes, become
53:56
Speaker 3: new habits in and of themselves. And once people start
54:00
Speaker 3: feeling better, they feel better rested, they have more energy,
54:04
Speaker 3: you know, they're maybe losing weight. They're thinking more clearly,
54:08
Speaker 3: why would you want to stop the program? You know,
54:11
Speaker 3: you want to maintain that level of you know, productivity
54:17
Speaker 3: in your life. And one of the other components of
54:20
Speaker 3: the book where diet and exercise is critically important is
54:24
Speaker 3: through the microbiome. These bacteria that live in your intestines
54:29
Speaker 3: are controlling a great deal or at least influencing a
54:32
Speaker 3: great deal of what's actually going on in the rest
54:35
Speaker 3: of your body, including your brain. So most people on
54:40
Speaker 3: what is called the SAD diet, the standard American diet,
54:44
Speaker 3: which is filled with sugar, fats, and salt, okay, a
54:50
Speaker 3: lot of preservatives, a lot of unnatural processed foods. Whenever
54:56
Speaker 3: you look at the microbiome of people who subsist on
54:59
Speaker 3: that diet, it's been depleted of many of the bacterial
55:03
Speaker 3: species that are present in individuals who don't eat that crap. Okay,
55:09
Speaker 3: Individuals who have a healthy diet have a thriving microbiome
55:15
Speaker 3: that is filled with all sorts of different species and
55:20
Speaker 3: secrete metabolites chemicals that are associated which must with much
55:26
Speaker 3: better physical and mental health. So what scientists have started
55:30
Speaker 3: to do, and some of this is in rodent models,
55:33
Speaker 3: but there have been some studies in people. Now they
55:37
Speaker 3: modify diets in very specific, well controlled ways and they
55:41
Speaker 3: can see changes in the microbiome. So a lot of
55:45
Speaker 3: the beneficial changes in the microbiome are a result of
55:49
Speaker 3: reducing the sugars, reducing the fats, eating less red meat,
55:55
Speaker 3: eating more vegetables, and getting a lot more fiber of
56:00
Speaker 3: those components. And again this is stuff that people know.
56:03
Speaker 3: It's just it's a lot easier to grab the twinkie
56:06
Speaker 3: or the candy bar. You have to resist those temptations
56:11
Speaker 3: and just start eating real food again and moving your body.
56:15
Speaker 3: Your microbiome will change as a result of that and
56:18
Speaker 3: start making chemicals that make your brain even function better.
56:22
Speaker 3: So it's it's really cool science and if people want
56:25
Speaker 3: to learn more, they can read the book. But a
56:27
Speaker 3: lot more has been written about the microbiomes since there
56:30
Speaker 3: really seems to be strong connections in diet, microbiome health
56:36
Speaker 3: and mental health.
56:39
Speaker 1: It's funny. The next question I was literally going to
56:42
Speaker 1: ask you, was are there any emerging treatments for mental
56:46
Speaker 1: health conditions that focus on you know, the microbiome. So
56:52
Speaker 1: you answered it, yeah, it's it's amazing. Was there in
56:58
Speaker 1: your research, like in in the you know, all the
57:01
Speaker 1: research that you did for the book and all the
57:06
Speaker 1: and all the prep and all the planning, and was
57:08
Speaker 1: there one thing that stood out to you, one one
57:12
Speaker 1: kind of thing that you learned. And I know your
57:14
Speaker 1: learning is ongoing and it's been ongoing for decades, but
57:18
Speaker 1: was there one standout thing that you've learned in this
57:21
Speaker 1: whole kind of exploration that blew you away, that surprised
57:26
Speaker 1: you more than anything else, one insight or one one discovery.
57:33
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was the one thing that stands out in
57:37
Speaker 3: my mind the most was studies that relate to aggression
57:43
Speaker 3: and violence. So for a long time, there was you know,
57:48
Speaker 3: people think that this is you talk about free will
57:51
Speaker 3: and agency. You know, the United States still has capital
57:55
Speaker 3: punishment for people who murder other individuals, and we have
58:02
Speaker 3: harsh jail sentences for criminal activity. Thinking that that's going
58:08
Speaker 3: to deter crime, and we don't give any thought to
58:12
Speaker 3: what caused that individual to behave that way. We blame
58:17
Speaker 3: the victim if you will, Okay, if you want to
58:19
Speaker 3: call a criminal a victim. A lot of people have
58:21
Speaker 3: problems with that, and I understand and I'm sensitive to it.
58:25
Speaker 3: But what got me starting to change my mind was
58:29
Speaker 3: that there are genetic studies that show genes linked to
58:34
Speaker 3: aggression and violence, and they are usually amplified through epigenetic
58:42
Speaker 3: changes in poor environments. Okay, so if a child is
58:46
Speaker 3: subjected to aces adverse childhood events like bullying, neglect, abuse,
58:53
Speaker 3: and they have these genes that predispose them towards aggression
58:58
Speaker 3: and violence for disaster, So these individuals tend to have
59:04
Speaker 3: no impulse control, they tend to have rage disorder, and
59:08
Speaker 3: it's really hard to get inside of their head if
59:11
Speaker 3: you don't act that way. But it's an uncontrollable urge,
59:16
Speaker 3: it's an uncontrollable behavior. What really struck me was that
59:22
Speaker 3: scientists can go into a mouse model and make changes
59:26
Speaker 3: in these same genes and the mice become hyper competitive,
59:31
Speaker 3: hyper aggressive. So there's a real genetic component to even
59:37
Speaker 3: heinous behavior. Now, This is not a get out of
59:40
Speaker 3: jail free card, Craig. This is you know, we still
59:43
Speaker 3: got to lock people up if they are dangerously violent.
59:46
Speaker 3: But we what we can learn from these sorts of
59:50
Speaker 3: studies is that behavior is strongly influenced by genes, and
59:56
Speaker 3: what we really need to do is understand how they
1:00:00
Speaker 3: environment can maybe deter those what those genes influence that
1:00:05
Speaker 3: person towards. So some studies have been done that show
1:00:11
Speaker 3: individuals with these genetic mutations, if they're in an environment
1:00:15
Speaker 3: where they are nourished, you know, you know, they have
1:00:20
Speaker 3: plenty of healthy foods, they have good school systems, they're
1:00:24
Speaker 3: not subjected to these aces. We don't see these problems
1:00:28
Speaker 3: in those individuals. So that is that is screaming to
1:00:31
Speaker 3: me that our whole system of jurisprudence is upside down.
1:00:38
Speaker 3: Rather than dealing with problem people, we need to recognize
1:00:43
Speaker 3: that we are creating environments that generate problem people and
1:00:49
Speaker 3: we need to fix those environments to benefit everybody. But
1:00:53
Speaker 3: we like to blame the victim, right, we like to
1:00:55
Speaker 3: blame the victim. But what you need to ask yourself,
1:00:58
Speaker 3: and this this was something that I read while because
1:01:00
Speaker 3: I struggled with this a lot. I was of the
1:01:03
Speaker 3: mind that, you know, if you're a criminal, lock you up,
1:01:07
Speaker 3: throw away the key, I don't really care, you know. Yeah, yeah,
1:01:11
Speaker 3: but these these studies have made me a little more
1:01:14
Speaker 3: sympathetic towards what individuals who grow up in poverty, who
1:01:20
Speaker 3: grow up in adverse environments, what they truly struggle with.
1:01:25
Speaker 3: And you really got to put yourself in that mindset
1:01:27
Speaker 3: and ask yourself, how in the world would I have
1:01:31
Speaker 3: done any different? You know, I wouldn't have had any
1:01:34
Speaker 3: I wouldn't have had any other options that you know,
1:01:36
Speaker 3: these individuals are deprived of. I probably would have turned out,
1:01:40
Speaker 3: you know, very similarly. So instead of trying to incarcerate,
1:01:47
Speaker 3: I mean, we've still got to incarcerate people to keep
1:01:50
Speaker 3: society safe, but we got to work on fixing the
1:01:54
Speaker 3: environment instead of blaming the people who are stuck in it.
1:02:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is a tricky conundrum because you know, when
1:02:09
Speaker 1: some people are genetically predisposed to be a certain way,
1:02:12
Speaker 1: like we all are, right, just most of us. Not
1:02:16
Speaker 1: for aggression and violence, thankfully, but that I wonder if
1:02:20
Speaker 1: you're going to get called into court one day to explain.
1:02:24
Speaker 3: Wh it happens that happens Robert Sapolski is frequently called
1:02:30
Speaker 3: into death penalty cases because he has done a lot
1:02:34
Speaker 3: of research on these so called warrior genes that have
1:02:36
Speaker 3: been linked to aggressive and violence, and it's basically to
1:02:42
Speaker 3: argue that this person really didn't have control over their actions. Yes,
1:02:48
Speaker 3: there was an individual. I think the very first instance
1:02:52
Speaker 3: of this in the US was in twenty eleven someone
1:02:57
Speaker 3: who was in the court. They didn't get to death penalty,
1:03:05
Speaker 3: they got life imprisonment, but they were spared to death
1:03:08
Speaker 3: penalty for murder because of their genetics. So this happens.
1:03:15
Speaker 3: But the silver lining there is that once we know
1:03:22
Speaker 3: gene x Y or Z is linked to violence, we
1:03:26
Speaker 3: figure out what that gene is doing, what product does
1:03:29
Speaker 3: it make, what process does it affect in the brain.
1:03:33
Speaker 3: We might be able to design a chemical craig, a
1:03:36
Speaker 3: drug that can offset that, you know, just like we
1:03:39
Speaker 3: do for other mental health issues. Okay, people with clinical
1:03:44
Speaker 3: depression or anxiety, there are drugs that are now available
1:03:47
Speaker 3: and the stigma of those diseases has gone way down.
1:03:51
Speaker 3: Aggression and violence might be very similar, and we might
1:03:54
Speaker 3: be able to medicate people so that they can live
1:03:58
Speaker 3: a normal, healthy life. But I still I don't think
1:04:01
Speaker 3: I can stress enough how many studies I read in
1:04:07
Speaker 3: both animal models, and of course this makes total sense
1:04:10
Speaker 3: when you talk about humans fixing, addressing the environmental issues,
1:04:15
Speaker 3: the poverty, you know, the malnutrition, the lead poisoning, all
1:04:20
Speaker 3: of these things are what is generating criminals. Okay, especially
1:04:25
Speaker 3: people who are predisposed of violence. This is just kind
1:04:28
Speaker 3: of like putting that spark to the to the dynamite.
1:04:33
Speaker 3: So I think that would go a tremendously long way
1:04:37
Speaker 3: and it would make society better for everyone.
1:04:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you know who? Do you know who Terry
1:04:47
Speaker 1: Crews is? I don't think Terry Cruz. Terry Crews is.
1:04:53
Speaker 1: Cruise is spelled cr w s. He hosts America's Got Talent.
1:04:58
Speaker 1: He's an ex NFL player, actor, big jacked dude. Anyway,
1:05:07
Speaker 1: in my spare time I listened to his autobiography. He's
1:05:12
Speaker 1: really articulate, highly intelligent, gifted athlete, I would say, genetically blessed,
1:05:20
Speaker 1: but grew up in a violent, abusive household. Both parents
1:05:25
Speaker 1: were somewhat abusive. The mum very very controlling, dictatorial, and
1:05:33
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, very very extremely religious and controlling, and
1:05:38
Speaker 1: the father violent and you know, like crap childhood, and
1:05:42
Speaker 1: you know, he was bullied and he's black, so he
1:05:45
Speaker 1: was there was lots of discrimination and lots of racism.
1:05:49
Speaker 1: And he grew up in a place called Flint, Michigan,
1:05:52
Speaker 1: which was, you know, like not a great environment for him.
1:05:56
Speaker 1: And yeah, and he basically talks about how well he
1:06:01
Speaker 1: was well on the way to becoming his dad, just
1:06:05
Speaker 1: despite the fact that all the shit that happened to
1:06:08
Speaker 1: him he hated, it was horrible. And then fortunately for him,
1:06:12
Speaker 1: he had a bit of a spiritual or philosophical or
1:06:16
Speaker 1: I don't know whatever emotional awakening where he realized. But
1:06:21
Speaker 1: he says, like it's every day he kind of works
1:06:25
Speaker 1: against this, this this programming that he you know, because
1:06:30
Speaker 1: when you grow up, i mean, apart from your genetics,
1:06:32
Speaker 1: you're also there's this environmental sociological programming. And yeah, it's
1:06:37
Speaker 1: like that he speaks about how hard it is to
1:06:42
Speaker 1: kind of rise above that. When you that's like becomes
1:06:46
Speaker 1: your default setting, even if it was something that you
1:06:49
Speaker 1: personally hated, you become it almost.
1:06:52
Speaker 3: Well more power to him. And you do read about
1:06:55
Speaker 3: exceptions to the rule, people who do against all arts
1:07:00
Speaker 3: come out of this process. It's enlightening to hear that
1:07:05
Speaker 3: every day is still a struggle. You know, this is
1:07:07
Speaker 3: a constant battle to fight those demons from the past,
1:07:13
Speaker 3: and it's wonderful to see examples. And I think there's
1:07:16
Speaker 3: a there's a tendency amongst people that if one person
1:07:20
Speaker 3: can do it, all the other tens of millions of
1:07:24
Speaker 3: people affected by poverty can do the same. And that's
1:07:26
Speaker 3: where I'm like, come on, come on, one other quick thing,
1:07:32
Speaker 3: and this is this is not to be little anybody's
1:07:35
Speaker 3: success in emerging from those horrible conditions. But I think
1:07:42
Speaker 3: there's been studies on children who come out of orphanages.
1:07:48
Speaker 3: Most of these children who go through the foster home
1:07:50
Speaker 3: process have miserable times, and statistically they end up with
1:07:55
Speaker 3: higher probability of being depressed or violent or even suicidal.
1:08:00
Speaker 3: It's horrible conditions that they had. But every now and
1:08:05
Speaker 3: then there's a few children who are resilient to all
1:08:09
Speaker 3: of this. Okay, they come out of it just fine,
1:08:11
Speaker 3: even though they had some horrible experiences, they seem okay.
1:08:16
Speaker 3: And this was genetically studied and it turns out that
1:08:20
Speaker 3: there's a really strong correlation between the resilient children and
1:08:26
Speaker 3: they have a gene that protects their brain from stress.
1:08:30
Speaker 3: It's a remarkable study. The gene is called BDNF and
1:08:34
Speaker 3: they over express this gene and its function is to
1:08:38
Speaker 3: protect the brain from stress. So even resilience, Craig, and
1:08:42
Speaker 3: this is probably why it's so rare, may have a
1:08:45
Speaker 3: genetic underpinning at least in some of these examples.
1:08:50
Speaker 1: Is that what is that? I feel like I've heard
1:08:52
Speaker 1: that betaf. Is it neurotropic fact of the last two
1:08:55
Speaker 1: things or something?
1:08:56
Speaker 3: Brain neurotropic factor or something like that. Yeah, brain development,
1:09:01
Speaker 3: brain development nor a troop factor?
1:09:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Another guy I have on here it
1:09:06
Speaker 1: has spoken about that's that's so interesting.
1:09:08
Speaker 3: All right.
1:09:09
Speaker 1: Last thing which is not in your wheelhouse, but if
1:09:12
Speaker 1: one of us knows anything, it ain't me, it might
1:09:14
Speaker 1: be you. So there's a you know all about this,
1:09:19
Speaker 1: but a genetic engineering tool, which is Crisper, which is
1:09:23
Speaker 1: a thing that people are talking about, c R I
1:09:27
Speaker 1: p R. Well, can you explain to me what it is?
1:09:30
Speaker 1: And and is that is that a good thing? A
1:09:33
Speaker 1: terrifying thing? Is it real? Is it going to play
1:09:36
Speaker 1: any role moving forward? So what? Yeah?
1:09:40
Speaker 3: Yeah, we could do a whole show on that one, Craig,
1:09:44
Speaker 3: Crisper is amazing. It is I'll do the I'll do
1:09:49
Speaker 3: the short synopsis version. It is basically a gene editing
1:09:52
Speaker 3: system that we stare from bacteria. Okay, bacteria use Crisper
1:09:58
Speaker 3: as an immune system to kill viruses that come in
1:10:01
Speaker 3: and invade bacteria. But we hijacked this system in order
1:10:06
Speaker 3: to edit genes with exquisite specificity, greater than any other
1:10:11
Speaker 3: approach that mankind humankind has ever developed so far. So
1:10:17
Speaker 3: what makes it so great is that it's very specific
1:10:19
Speaker 3: and doesn't appear to have a lot of off target effects.
1:10:22
Speaker 3: So if you want to modify gene x, you can
1:10:25
Speaker 3: do so with Crisper. The limitations of it right now
1:10:30
Speaker 3: are that we can do it in cells that we
1:10:32
Speaker 3: grow in a laboratory, So it's really hard to say
1:10:36
Speaker 3: we're going to modify your genes, crey. We can't do
1:10:40
Speaker 3: that yet. But we can take some of your white
1:10:43
Speaker 3: blood cells, for example, and change the DNA in those
1:10:47
Speaker 3: white blood cells and then put them back into the body.
1:10:50
Speaker 3: And why would we want to do that? We can
1:10:52
Speaker 3: genetically engineer using Crisper to tell your white blood cells
1:10:56
Speaker 3: to kill your cancer.
1:11:00
Speaker 1: Is that happening? That is?
1:11:02
Speaker 3: There's clinical trials for leukemia utilizing this technology. It's called
1:11:07
Speaker 3: cart C A R T, and Crisper is also being
1:11:12
Speaker 3: used to remedy sickle cell disease. So sickle cell disease
1:11:17
Speaker 3: is a terrible ailment and there was no hope for it.
1:11:22
Speaker 3: But again, we can now take individuals cells using Crisper,
1:11:30
Speaker 3: give them the proper genes so they don't have sickle
1:11:35
Speaker 3: cell anymore, and then basically rid that disease from their germline,
1:11:40
Speaker 3: from their genome. It's remarkable technology and it's only going
1:11:45
Speaker 3: to get more and more utility. You may have heard
1:11:48
Speaker 3: about the infamous case in China where a scientist, I believe,
1:11:53
Speaker 3: in twenty nineteen give or take crispered babies where out
1:12:00
Speaker 3: there there are two or three babies that have been
1:12:04
Speaker 3: born who have been genetically altered using Crisper technology. And
1:12:10
Speaker 3: the way he altered them he tried to make them
1:12:13
Speaker 3: resistant to the HIV virus. And there's very questionable tactics
1:12:20
Speaker 3: with regard to even what he did scientifically, let alone
1:12:24
Speaker 3: what he did morally, because there's a there's a global
1:12:27
Speaker 3: ban on genetically modifying the germ line of individuals who
1:12:32
Speaker 3: have yet to be born. Yes, but he did prison
1:12:37
Speaker 3: time for that, but I think he is back out
1:12:39
Speaker 3: working in the sciences now.
1:12:42
Speaker 1: Oh, I wonder what those how those kids are.
1:12:44
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, nobody knows. You know, you're not going to
1:12:49
Speaker 3: get much information out of China, But I don't know
1:12:53
Speaker 3: what the fate of those children are or what happened
1:12:56
Speaker 3: to them, how they're doing or whatnot. We don't know
1:12:59
Speaker 3: what the long term effects might be. And like I
1:13:01
Speaker 3: said before, what he did scientifically was questionable and there
1:13:05
Speaker 3: was no need to do this. You know, there's no
1:13:07
Speaker 3: need to make someone resistant to HIV because you can
1:13:09
Speaker 3: live a life that prevents you from getting the virus.
1:13:13
Speaker 3: So it's just a huge mess. But it illustrates how
1:13:20
Speaker 3: easy this stuff is to use, and you know, some
1:13:26
Speaker 3: of the magnitude of the changes that it can make.
1:13:29
Speaker 3: So we're using it right now for medical purposes, but
1:13:34
Speaker 3: it probably won't be long before people want to start
1:13:37
Speaker 3: using Crisper to improve other genes that they think are
1:13:42
Speaker 3: going to give them more intelligence, or increase their memory,
1:13:46
Speaker 3: or increase their lifespan. All that is coming down the road.
1:13:51
Speaker 3: Compared to a whole show on this one.
1:13:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's that's fascinating the world.
1:13:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, humans are GMOs.
1:13:58
Speaker 1: Now, maybe they're going to use that technology for weeding
1:14:05
Speaker 1: out aggression and violence or you know, like we were
1:14:09
Speaker 1: talking about people who are genetically predisposed for violence before,
1:14:13
Speaker 1: maybe they can deal with that before it eventuates.
1:14:17
Speaker 3: Or maybe they put it in Craig.
1:14:20
Speaker 1: Maybe we build a super a super racist soldiers, super army. Yeah,
1:14:25
Speaker 1: super army full of violent, aggressive, fearless humans that have
1:14:30
Speaker 1: been I bet there's probably North Korea is doing that
1:14:35
Speaker 1: right now, someone's doing that. Probably China's doing that right
1:14:38
Speaker 1: super soldiers, that's happening.
1:14:40
Speaker 3: Sure, it's scary to think about, but I don't think
1:14:45
Speaker 3: the technology is there yet, but I think it's inevitable
1:14:50
Speaker 3: that we will get there. So it's high time we
1:14:53
Speaker 3: start talking about it and start putting like, you know,
1:14:55
Speaker 3: intelligent restrictions on what people can and cannot do. But
1:15:01
Speaker 3: the terrifying part of Chris Brewer is how easy it
1:15:03
Speaker 3: is to use.
1:15:05
Speaker 1: Wow, now I'm scared. Well, MIT are building dogs that
1:15:10
Speaker 1: have have you seen those dogs from MIT? They have
1:15:14
Speaker 1: like weapons on their back now, like machine guns and stuff.
1:15:18
Speaker 3: Oh like these are robot dogs. Yeah, robot dogs. I've
1:15:23
Speaker 3: seen some.
1:15:24
Speaker 1: Yeah. When you get yeah, just google MIT robot dogs.
1:15:27
Speaker 1: They can run and fall over and get back up
1:15:29
Speaker 1: and jump up on stuff. It's seventy thousand dollars a
1:15:33
Speaker 1: dog or one hundred thousand dollars a dog. But you
1:15:35
Speaker 1: know it's no German shepherd, is it? Hey? How can
1:15:38
Speaker 1: people find you and follow you? Doc?
1:15:40
Speaker 3: They can find me at my author website. It is www.
1:15:45
Speaker 3: Author Bill Sullivan dot com.
1:15:48
Speaker 1: I'm sorry for keeping you up. What time is it
1:15:51
Speaker 1: over there?
1:15:52
Speaker 3: Oh it's not even ten o'clock yet, don't worry about it.
1:15:55
Speaker 1: Well, I apologize. We stuffed up here, everybody. We forgot
1:15:58
Speaker 1: the factor in daylight saving things. And by where I
1:16:01
Speaker 1: mean me like I through, like I threw everyone under
1:16:05
Speaker 1: the bus, and me I stuffed up. We'll say goodbye
1:16:08
Speaker 1: here but for the moment, Bill, thanks again and appreciate you.
1:16:12
Speaker 3: Always a pleasure, Craig, it's great to talk to you.
1:16:15
Speaker 1: Thanks, buddy,