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THE MORNING AFTER: What Went Wrong for Amber Heard in Johnny Depp Trial? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The verdict Watch is over
0:17
Speaker 1: a jury finds and a split verdict mostly for Captain
0:23
Speaker 1: Jack Sparrow aka Johnny Depp, while they did support one
0:30
Speaker 1: of Amber Heard's claims. What happened? What went sideways during
0:36
Speaker 1: this trial for Amber Heard? And now what's next? I mean,
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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being
0:44
Speaker 1: with us here at Fox Nation and serious XM one eleven.
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Speaker 1: First of all, take a listen to what happened from
0:51
Speaker 1: the horse's mouth. Listen, mister Ford person, is just the
0:55
Speaker 1: verdict of the jury? All right? Is it unanimous? Thank you, sir?
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Speaker 1: In civil case number CL twenty nineteen two nine one
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Speaker 1: one mister Depp's claim against misheard one as to the
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Speaker 1: statement appearing in the online op ed entitled Amber Heard,
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Speaker 1: I spoke up against sexual violence and faced our culture's wrath.
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Speaker 1: That has to change. In The Washington Post's online edition,
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Speaker 1: quote I spoke up against sexual violence and faced our
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Speaker 1: culture's rat That has to change. End quote. Do you
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Speaker 1: find that mister Depp has proven all the elements of defamation? Answer? Yes,
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Speaker 1: Has mister Depp proven by a greater weight of the
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Speaker 1: evidence that question? The statement was made or published by misheard.
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Speaker 1: Answer yes, the question the statement was about mister Depp.
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Speaker 1: Answer yes, question the statement was false. Answer yes. This
2:02
Speaker 1: jury had forty two specific questions they had to answer.
2:07
Speaker 1: Either side was alleging basically three main charges against the other.
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Speaker 1: What was lost in the sauce was that this was
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Speaker 1: two lawsuits merged together, Depth suing Amber Heard for fifty
2:21
Speaker 1: million dollars claiming she defamed him, and Amber Heard counter
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Speaker 1: suing for one hundred million dollars back at Depth, claiming
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Speaker 1: that he, through his lawyer Waldman, had defamed her. Well,
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Speaker 1: it turned into a real brawl with me and all
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Speaker 1: Star panel to make sense of what we know right now.
2:42
Speaker 1: You just heard a portion of what went down in
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Speaker 1: the jury room as the verdicts were announced straight out
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Speaker 1: to Caitlyn Becker, joining as senior reporter Dailymail dot Com. Caitlin,
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Speaker 1: give me a recap of the jury's decision. A jury
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Speaker 1: of seven, Well, Nancy, they overwhelmed me, sided four Johnny Depp.
3:03
Speaker 1: They found that Amber heard twenty eighteen op ed in
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Speaker 1: the Washington Post, defamed him, that she knowingly wrote false information,
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Speaker 1: that she did so with malice. I was pretty shocked
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Speaker 1: and At the end of all of that, they awarded
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Speaker 1: a massive amount of damages, ten million dollars in compensis
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Speaker 1: compensatory damages and five million impunitive damages. Now that did
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Speaker 1: change because there is that three hundred and fifty thousand
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Speaker 1: dollars cap on punitive damages in the state of Virginia,
3:34
Speaker 1: so that number was slashed tight of bits. And then
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Speaker 1: they turned to Amber Heard's counterclaim against Johnny Depp, finding
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Speaker 1: in her favor on one of those counts, finding that
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Speaker 1: he defamed her through statements made by his lawyer, and
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Speaker 1: then ordering him to pay her two million dollars. So
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Speaker 1: when all is said undone, when all of that math
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Speaker 1: is done, Johnny Depp essentially walked away with about eight
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Speaker 1: point three five million dollars in damages. Okay, So the
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Speaker 1: math is the jury awarded him ten million in compensation
4:03
Speaker 1: for alleged damage to his career, five million dollars in
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Speaker 1: punishment punitive damages against Amber Heard, and for depth. Then
4:14
Speaker 1: that was reduced. That fifteen mill was reduced because in
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Speaker 1: Virginia for punitive damages you can only get three hundred
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Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars max. So the five mill was reduced
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Speaker 1: to three hundred fifty thousand. That leaves us at ten million,
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Speaker 1: three hundred fifty thousand dollars. But then the jury in
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Speaker 1: the number two claim by heard awarded heard two million.
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Speaker 1: So you now take the ten million, three hundred fifty
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Speaker 1: thousand mine us the two million he Owes heard, and
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Speaker 1: you end up with eight million, three hundred and fifty
4:49
Speaker 1: thousand dollars, questioned Caitlin Becker, why were you shocked? I
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Speaker 1: think this whole case almost felt like the legal embodiment
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Speaker 1: of her original op ed. She spoke out against sexual
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Speaker 1: violence and faced the culture's brass. I watched every day
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Speaker 1: of this trial. I watched the testimony, and from my perspective,
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Speaker 1: I feel like she maybe proved that Johnny Depp was abusive.
5:16
Speaker 1: I also felt like Johnny Depp proved that she was abusive.
5:19
Speaker 1: They both seemed like abusive partner. So I was really
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Speaker 1: surprised at the end of it that Johnny Depp's celebrity
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Speaker 1: had kind of won out through all of this. I
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Speaker 1: think the jury turned on Amber heard when she got
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Speaker 1: up on that stand and felt like she was acting,
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Speaker 1: and they were endeared to Johnny Depp when he got
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Speaker 1: up on that stand and felt like they were front
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Speaker 1: and center with a celebrity who's been in their homes
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Speaker 1: for decades. To you, Daryl Cohen, former or felony prosecutor,
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Speaker 1: now veteran civil attorney joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction,
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Speaker 1: Daryl Cohen, what do you make of it? Well, I
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Speaker 1: think that fair maiden just was not likable in Nancy.
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Speaker 1: We've taught about this forever. You have to have likability
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Speaker 1: on the stand and the public opinion. The court of
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Speaker 1: public opinion didn't like Amber, didn't like the way she was.
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Speaker 1: I thought, finally she changed her persona after she changed
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Speaker 1: her pr people, but it wasn't enough. And I don't
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Speaker 1: think it was about what she wrote and what Johnny
6:23
Speaker 1: Depp's lawyer did. I think it was more about the
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Speaker 1: way that the public just didn't like her. So maybe
6:30
Speaker 1: Aquaman was her her last stand. I don't know, but
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Speaker 1: I do think it'll be fine. You know what, you
6:37
Speaker 1: know what you're not here to say. I don't know.
6:41
Speaker 1: You're the civil lawyer expert, and I can tell you
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Speaker 1: it's not a popularity contest. Although when a jury doesn't
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Speaker 1: like a witness, they're much less prone to believe the witness.
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Speaker 1: I believe the jury smelled her lies on other issues,
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Speaker 1: like the charity donation that she never made that she
7:04
Speaker 1: swore under oath she had made, like the claiming that
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Speaker 1: no one in her camp tipped off TMZ to show
7:12
Speaker 1: up at the courthouse when she got a t r
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Speaker 1: O tipporary restraining order and was supposed to turn a
7:18
Speaker 1: certain way so they could get a photograph of the
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Speaker 1: bruise on her face. That didn't just happen, that was orchestrated.
7:27
Speaker 1: The claimed that Depp pushed Kate Moss down the stairs,
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Speaker 1: and then Kate Moss appears as a rebuttal witness, which
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Speaker 1: is very powerful when you get the last word. Depp
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Speaker 1: brought her on as a rebuttal witness to say that
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Speaker 1: didn't happen. I mean, there's a huge list of lies
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Speaker 1: that she wasn't setting him up. Then why all the
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Speaker 1: videos and the photographs that it wasn't about the money
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Speaker 1: at all? When testimony came in that she demanded use
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Speaker 1: of his three penthouse apartments and arrange her over to boot. Now,
8:03
Speaker 1: what does this have to do with him hitting her? Nothing.
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Speaker 1: It doesn't mean he didn't hit her, But what it
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Speaker 1: did do Daryl Cohen, is her credibility as opposed to debt?
8:17
Speaker 1: They get sothern goes. Yeah, I do drugs. I'm an alcoholic.
8:22
Speaker 1: I slam cabinets and I kick things and I throw things,
8:26
Speaker 1: but I don't hit anybody. He owned up to it
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Speaker 1: all except the beating. So that is why I believe
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Speaker 1: the jury rejected her claims, not because they didn't think
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Speaker 1: Depp ever hit her, but because they thought she was
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Speaker 1: lying about other things jury nullification, and that's partially what
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Speaker 1: they did. They liked her not at all. They liked
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Speaker 1: him a lot, and they did take, in my view,
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Speaker 1: their thoughts about her lying. They did take the fact
8:58
Speaker 1: and the America's really cool. If you do something wrong
9:01
Speaker 1: as a celebrity and you admit it after a while,
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Speaker 1: it's okay. But if you don't admit it, it's never okay.
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Speaker 1: And so our fair maiden is just not a fair maiden.
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Speaker 1: She lost a lot more money than she won. If
9:17
Speaker 1: either of them ever collect the lawyers, will the lawyers
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Speaker 1: have Yeah, yeah, you're right, the lawyers will collect time
9:36
Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, what happened in that courtroom.
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Speaker 1: Many people thought it would be shoe in for Amber heard,
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Speaker 1: but it all ended up Bass Ackwards. Take listen to
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Speaker 1: our cut sixty five, our friend Ron Alan at NBC cheering,
9:56
Speaker 1: yelling and screaming support for Johnny Depp. As has been
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Speaker 1: the case for the last number of weeks, he had
10:01
Speaker 1: been winning this in the court of public opinion. It
10:03
Speaker 1: seemed obvious online social media and as the verdicts were read,
10:08
Speaker 1: cheering outside the courthouse from a small group of people.
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Speaker 1: Here today we don't have the huge crowd that we've
10:14
Speaker 1: had for the past number of weeks because Depth is
10:17
Speaker 1: not here. He is in England. He's playing a number
10:19
Speaker 1: of concerts and he has just released a statement which
10:22
Speaker 1: I can read to you. In part. It says, six
10:25
Speaker 1: years ago, my life, the life of my children, the
10:28
Speaker 1: lives are those closest to me, and also the lives
10:30
Speaker 1: of the people who for many many years have supported
10:33
Speaker 1: and believed in me, were forever changed all the blink
10:36
Speaker 1: of an eye. Then he goes on to say, and
10:38
Speaker 1: six years later the jury gave me my life back.
10:41
Speaker 1: I am truly humbled. That is what Depth has always
10:44
Speaker 1: said this is about. It wasn't about money, it wasn't
10:46
Speaker 1: about vengeance. It was about trying to get his good
10:50
Speaker 1: name and reputation back because he vehemently denied the allegations
10:54
Speaker 1: that he was an abuser, that he had committed violent
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Speaker 1: acts against Amber Heard. Okay, while he is happy, his
11:03
Speaker 1: camp is happy, and he says, the jury has given
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Speaker 1: me my life back. Just the opposite on the other
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Speaker 1: side of the courtroom. Take a listen to our cut
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Speaker 1: sixty six our friends at MBC. This is coming from
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Speaker 1: Amber Heard. The disappointment I feel today is beyond words.
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Speaker 1: I'm heartbroken that the mountain of evidence still was not
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Speaker 1: enough to stand up to the disproportionate power influence in
11:25
Speaker 1: sway of my ex husband. Heard goes on to write,
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Speaker 1: I'm even more disappointed with what this verdict means for
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Speaker 1: other women. It's a setback. It sets back the clock
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Speaker 1: to a time when a woman who spoke up and
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Speaker 1: spoke out could be publicly shamed and humiliated. It sets
11:39
Speaker 1: back the idea that violence against women is to be
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Speaker 1: taken seriously. She goes on to say, finally, I'm sad
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Speaker 1: I lost this case, but I'm even sadder still that
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Speaker 1: I seem to have lost or write, I thought I
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Speaker 1: had as an American to speak freely and openly. Now,
11:53
Speaker 1: this statement came to us just minutes after the verdict
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Speaker 1: came out, so it seemed to be a prepared statement
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Speaker 1: that amber Heard sent out to the press. To doctor
12:01
Speaker 1: Charles Heller joining us clinical forensic psychologists specializing in domestic violence.
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Speaker 1: He's the chief forensic consultant Rockland County. Doctor Heller, thank
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Speaker 1: you for being with us. There you see amber Heard
12:13
Speaker 1: painting the court battle very much in a David and
12:18
Speaker 1: Goliath style, where she would be David in her mind
12:23
Speaker 1: and depth Goliath. Now, as far as their bank ability,
12:27
Speaker 1: their box office numbers, I agree with her, but I
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Speaker 1: do not believe that it was necessarily Johnny Depp's popularity
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Speaker 1: that caused this verdict. I think the jury caught her
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Speaker 1: in lies and they just lost all respect or all
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Speaker 1: likability for her. For instance, And I'm not saying you
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Speaker 1: never hit her. I'm saying she lied about other matters
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Speaker 1: and the jury did not believe her, which they are
12:57
Speaker 1: allowed to do under the law. I think they hit
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Speaker 1: each other. But for instance, all this business about donating
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Speaker 1: the seven million dollars divorce settlement to charity instead of
13:09
Speaker 1: insisting until she was blew in the face that she
13:13
Speaker 1: did donate it, and then the ACLU comes up and says, yeah, well,
13:17
Speaker 1: no you didn't. Why didn't she just say, you know what,
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Speaker 1: I had the best intentions. I donated two or three
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Speaker 1: million dollars, but then I ran out of money. Then
13:28
Speaker 1: I caught this lawsuit. I had the best intentions, but
13:31
Speaker 1: no I never finished giving the money. I gave all
13:35
Speaker 1: I thought that I could. So there, Nancy, what the
13:40
Speaker 1: world has gotten a great lesson in how to assess
13:44
Speaker 1: false allegations. This is what I do all the time.
13:49
Speaker 1: And there's a certain certain procedure a forensic psychologist has
13:54
Speaker 1: to follow in terms of assessment of an allegation. You
14:00
Speaker 1: have to look at patterns. You have to look at
14:03
Speaker 1: any pist dishonesty about anything, especially the situation. Dear Lord
14:09
Speaker 1: in Heaven, Man, everybody's lied, that doesn't mean you can't
14:15
Speaker 1: mean her lies. And he was actually honest about a
14:21
Speaker 1: lot of his deficits and acting out in terms of
14:25
Speaker 1: alcohol and drugs. That's a really nice way to put it.
14:27
Speaker 1: His deficits. Man, he was a raging guy when he
14:34
Speaker 1: would be high on drugs or alcohol. But again, you're
14:38
Speaker 1: talking about lies about other things that affect credibility. I
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Speaker 1: think that's what you're saying, doctor Heller. That's what I'm saying.
14:47
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's not so much public opinion that
14:51
Speaker 1: changed this verdict toward Depth. It's it's not that the
14:55
Speaker 1: jury liked him more than her. It's simply the facts.
15:00
Speaker 1: The evidence didn't match up with what she was saying.
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Speaker 1: Johnny right now is a special guest. Julie Owens victim advocate,
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Speaker 1: domestic violence expert consultant and you can find her a
15:11
Speaker 1: domestic violence expert dot Org Julie Owens way in the money,
15:19
Speaker 1: Nancy at It's a devastating decision and will resolverate for years,
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Speaker 1: I'm sure with a chilling effect and other domestic planet systems.
15:30
Speaker 1: There is no doubt in my name after more than
15:35
Speaker 1: thirty years of working in similar situations that weren't have had.
15:41
Speaker 1: Johnny Depth is a text abuser, Nancy, and he has
15:46
Speaker 1: every single characteristic of the domestic violence offender, whereas she
15:50
Speaker 1: does me. He's a great actor who's playing the role
15:53
Speaker 1: of a lifetime. This is a man who said we're married.
15:56
Speaker 1: Now I can pinch her in the face and no
15:58
Speaker 1: one can do anything about it. This is a man
16:01
Speaker 1: who fanticized about killing her, who told her he's going
16:05
Speaker 1: to win a reputation, who said she's begging for total humiliation.
16:11
Speaker 1: She's gonna get it. I have no mercy, no fear.
16:14
Speaker 1: I'm happy she wants to face this out. No victims
16:17
Speaker 1: says those things. You know, I'm thinking through everything you're saying.
16:22
Speaker 1: There's no question that we have to take witnesses and
16:27
Speaker 1: victims as we find them. You can't change a victim's personality.
16:35
Speaker 1: I will never forget Julio's. In one of the first
16:37
Speaker 1: case I tried, not the first, but one of the first.
16:41
Speaker 1: I got a case that none of thee and you
16:44
Speaker 1: know how it goes, Daryl Cohen. When you first go
16:47
Speaker 1: to the district attorney's office, you're what they call a mule, okay,
16:52
Speaker 1: and you are sent to all the courtrooms and you
16:56
Speaker 1: basically are handed the cases that the permanently assigned the
17:01
Speaker 1: veteran trial lawyers don't want to try. Princess. My first
17:04
Speaker 1: trial was a shoplifting from a kmart where the guy
17:09
Speaker 1: didn't take anything. And you'll remember Harvey Moscow, it's our friend.
17:12
Speaker 1: Great trial lawyer gave me the case to try and
17:15
Speaker 1: then immediately went out of town with Arla, his wife.
17:18
Speaker 1: I was thrilled to try a case, but then I
17:20
Speaker 1: realized the guy got a CD player. He cut it
17:24
Speaker 1: off the display, stuck it down his pants, put it
17:27
Speaker 1: in a rug, got all the way to the front
17:30
Speaker 1: door of the kmart, and then left it in the rug. Well,
17:33
Speaker 1: they the deputy dog security guys at kmart threw him
17:37
Speaker 1: on the asphalt and yanked him back in and arrested
17:40
Speaker 1: him for shoplifting. He didn't have anything on him, he
17:43
Speaker 1: left it in the store. I had to try the
17:46
Speaker 1: case and I got a conviction Daryl on attempted shoplifting.
17:50
Speaker 1: So in the next case I had Darrel. I had
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Speaker 1: a woman that was arm robbed with a knife. What
18:01
Speaker 1: I really didn't want the jury to find out was
18:03
Speaker 1: she was a stripper and she was coming out of
18:06
Speaker 1: a strip club at like four am, dressed as a
18:08
Speaker 1: cheerleader and a guy pulled a knife and took all
18:11
Speaker 1: her tips. Well, I thought they wouldn't like her if
18:13
Speaker 1: they found out she was a stripper. So I got
18:16
Speaker 1: her up there and I said, you know, how long
18:19
Speaker 1: have you lived in Atlanta? You know where did you
18:21
Speaker 1: go to school? Where do you go to church? Blah
18:23
Speaker 1: blah blah. I looked over at the jury and they
18:25
Speaker 1: were like, mmmmm, there's no way to change a witness
18:31
Speaker 1: or a victim, Darrell Cohen. You gotta go with what
18:34
Speaker 1: you got. And what Julie is alluding to is no victim,
18:39
Speaker 1: no witness is perfect. So what you're never going to
18:42
Speaker 1: find for them because they're not perfect. Darrel, are you there?
18:45
Speaker 1: I am here and I'm listening to everything, and I think,
18:48
Speaker 1: very honestly, the problem was, again, you talk about her lives.
18:53
Speaker 1: I agree, I talk about her likability. Hopefully other people agree. Unfortunately,
18:59
Speaker 1: her life ability didn't exist if she had a lack
19:03
Speaker 1: of it. And when she had her hair a certain
19:06
Speaker 1: way in the courtroom, when she had her makeup a
19:09
Speaker 1: certain way in the courtroom in the beginning, it wasn't working.
19:14
Speaker 1: And Nancy, you only have one chance. I hope you're
19:19
Speaker 1: not boiling this down to her hair and makeup, because
19:22
Speaker 1: that I'm boiling the courtroom. That is not what happened.
19:27
Speaker 1: This is what happened. What about Kate Moss. Listen, we
19:31
Speaker 1: were leaving the room and Johnny left the room before
19:35
Speaker 1: I did, and there had been a rain store and
19:40
Speaker 1: as I left the room. I slid down the stairs
19:44
Speaker 1: and I hurt my back. How did you and I apologize?
19:49
Speaker 1: Miss Moss? Please continue? And I screamed because I was
19:55
Speaker 1: in because I didn't know what happened to me, and
19:58
Speaker 1: I was in pain. And he came running back to
20:03
Speaker 1: help me and carried me to my room and got
20:08
Speaker 1: me medical attention. Did mister Depp push you in any
20:13
Speaker 1: way down the stairs? None? During the course of your relationship,
20:19
Speaker 1: did he ever push you down any stairs? No, he
20:23
Speaker 1: never pushed me, kicked me, or through me town any stairs. Okay,
20:29
Speaker 1: right there? To Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University,
20:33
Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and Starving
20:37
Speaker 1: You Hit series on iHeart Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan,
20:40
Speaker 1: Joe Scott, it's issues. I don't know what Daryl okay,
20:46
Speaker 1: when I was drinking in his coffee, if that's exactly
20:48
Speaker 1: what's in that mug. But this is not about anybody's
20:52
Speaker 1: here in makeup. This is about inconsistent statements on the stand.
20:59
Speaker 1: The Johnny Depp team could not bring in Kate Moss
21:04
Speaker 1: unless and until Amber heard side brought her up at
21:09
Speaker 1: that moment, it's like a vampire. Then once you're invited,
21:12
Speaker 1: you can bring in the evidence, and they did, and
21:15
Speaker 1: it was towards the end of the trials. One of
21:17
Speaker 1: the last things echoing in the juries the jurards ears
21:22
Speaker 1: and they hear yet another claim made by Amber heard
21:26
Speaker 1: was false. I think that had a great deal to
21:30
Speaker 1: do with her undoing lies about Kate Moss being beaten
21:37
Speaker 1: by Johnny Depp. That's not true. The charity, the poop
21:43
Speaker 1: on the bed, I mean, it just goes on and
21:45
Speaker 1: on and on. That doesn't mean she was never struck,
21:48
Speaker 1: but it doesn't mean she lied. Joe Scott, you're the
21:52
Speaker 1: expert weigh in. Yeah, yeah, And you know, going back
21:55
Speaker 1: to I still can't get past this whole TMZ thing
21:59
Speaker 1: with the injury to the face, Nancy, you know when
22:01
Speaker 1: you look at that, when you look at that image,
22:04
Speaker 1: Now that this verdict has come in and we kind
22:07
Speaker 1: of begin to see this timeline that seems manufactured now
22:11
Speaker 1: at this point, Okay, now, hold on, Julie Owens is
22:14
Speaker 1: not gonna like anything that you're saying, but I have
22:19
Speaker 1: to agree with you. The timing was just too perfect.
22:23
Speaker 1: And again I believe anybody in their right mind thinks
22:26
Speaker 1: that these two hit each other. But speaking of what
22:32
Speaker 1: you perceived to be a manufactured I guess you're saying
22:36
Speaker 1: bruise or scenario regarding our friend Harve eleven at TMZ
22:43
Speaker 1: a wildly popular site online, listen to this. This is
22:47
Speaker 1: what came out in court. Would you normally send paparazzi
22:50
Speaker 1: to a courthouse only if we had been informed prior.
22:54
Speaker 1: It's not, by any means a celebrity hotspot. We would
22:57
Speaker 1: only ever send people there if we had been tipped
23:00
Speaker 1: off that something was occoding and there was somebody present there.
23:04
Speaker 1: And what footage was TMC try and capture at the
23:06
Speaker 1: LA Courthouse on May twenty seventh, twenty sixteen. We were
23:10
Speaker 1: trying to capture Amber leaving the courthouse and an alleged
23:15
Speaker 1: bruise on the right side of her face. What was
23:19
Speaker 1: your team of paparazzi supposed to do while they were
23:22
Speaker 1: at the Los Angeles Courthouse on May twenty seventh, twenty sixteen.
23:26
Speaker 1: Their objective was to capture her leaving the courthouse, and
23:30
Speaker 1: then she was going to sort of stop and turn
23:33
Speaker 1: towards the camera to display the bruising the right side
23:36
Speaker 1: of her face. Gil Ed Bruce, did your team of
23:39
Speaker 1: videographers get the shot of Amber Heard? We did too.
23:42
Speaker 1: Kaitlin Becker, joining US senior reporter with Dailymail dot Com,
23:47
Speaker 1: explain in a Nutshelle the whole TMZ drama. So essentially
23:52
Speaker 1: what happened here, Nancy is they call this guy that
23:56
Speaker 1: used to work at TMZ to the stand to discuss
24:00
Speaker 1: why there were cameras from TMZ paparazzi cameras at the
24:03
Speaker 1: courthouse when Amber Heard showed up to file this tro
24:06
Speaker 1: how they knew they were going to be there, and
24:08
Speaker 1: whether or not it was her team that kipped them off.
24:12
Speaker 1: You heard the back and forth on the stand. It
24:15
Speaker 1: didn't seem to go well. I don't think Amber's team
24:17
Speaker 1: got out of him what they wanted to get out
24:19
Speaker 1: of him. He was a bit personickty. I from experience,
24:23
Speaker 1: I worked Fair for a time in my life. I
24:25
Speaker 1: didn't work there at the time that this happened, but
24:27
Speaker 1: I do know that if the answer, the answer to
24:30
Speaker 1: the questions she was asking were not going to come
24:32
Speaker 1: from this guy, they were going to come from other
24:34
Speaker 1: people at that company. You heard him multiple times say
24:37
Speaker 1: I was told by a news producer, I was told
24:39
Speaker 1: by a news producer went up on TMZ dot com.
24:41
Speaker 1: I was informed by a news producer he wasn't the
24:43
Speaker 1: person with the information that she wanted, so she was
24:45
Speaker 1: never going to get what she wanted out at him.
24:47
Speaker 1: But my takeaway of all of this, as someone who's
24:50
Speaker 1: covered these types of things for more than a decade,
24:54
Speaker 1: he's worked as an entertainment journalist for a very long time.
24:57
Speaker 1: Isn't this why, as the celebrity, you have a team.
25:00
Speaker 1: The news is going to get out there anyway. I
25:03
Speaker 1: mean a hundred times, I feel like we've heard them say,
25:06
Speaker 1: how did reporters know she was going to be there?
25:09
Speaker 1: There are reporters that work in the courthouse every single day.
25:14
Speaker 1: They work in the courthouse, So if Amber heard shows up,
25:17
Speaker 1: they're gonna know when she walks in the door. If
25:19
Speaker 1: a celebrity attorney shows up, they're gonna call their news
25:23
Speaker 1: desk and say, a celebrity to so and so, celebrity
25:26
Speaker 1: attorney is in here, send a camera down. I don't
25:28
Speaker 1: know why they're here, but you're gonna want to know.
25:30
Speaker 1: So it makes sense to me that Amber's team would
25:33
Speaker 1: have called ahead of time to try to get their
25:36
Speaker 1: side of the story out would have leaked it. Maybe
25:38
Speaker 1: Amber didn't know, Maybe she wasn't aware of that and
25:41
Speaker 1: it was her team orchestrating this, but that happens all
25:44
Speaker 1: the time. Okay, Now along that line, let's follow up
25:48
Speaker 1: on what Caitlin becker Or from Dailymail dot Com is saying,
25:51
Speaker 1: just got Morgan. Your claim is Amber heard says she
25:58
Speaker 1: had nothing to do or her camp with tipping off TMZ,
26:01
Speaker 1: that she's going to get a restraining order, and that
26:04
Speaker 1: she had a bruise on her face. They say she
26:08
Speaker 1: was in on it, and she was even prepared to
26:10
Speaker 1: turn a certain way, a pause at the door the
26:13
Speaker 1: entrance so the camera could get a shot of the bruise.
26:16
Speaker 1: And that is exactly what happened, Joe Scott, Yeah, it is.
26:19
Speaker 1: And you know, let's go back to when this event
26:23
Speaker 1: occurred and LAPD had shown up at the residents, or
26:27
Speaker 1: the local police department showed up at the residents, and
26:31
Speaker 1: you know, it's at that particular time that when the
26:35
Speaker 1: investigators took a look at her, they had noted that
26:38
Speaker 1: they they didn't see any evidence of injury. And as
26:41
Speaker 1: we know, Nancy, from a forensics perspective, if you get
26:44
Speaker 1: popped in the face. Okay, you're going to have immediate swelling,
26:48
Speaker 1: you'll have a redness that occurs. That's that's along the
26:51
Speaker 1: continuum here. You know, all the cases that we work
26:54
Speaker 1: relative to abuse, you know, that's one of the things
26:56
Speaker 1: that we do with kids and people that have been abused.
26:59
Speaker 1: We try to aid the age the injuries. And with her,
27:03
Speaker 1: you know, they didn't see it at that particular time.
27:05
Speaker 1: But yet when this photo is taken, and this is
27:09
Speaker 1: down range in linear time, it's away from the event,
27:13
Speaker 1: you've got something that's presenting as read and it's got
27:16
Speaker 1: a very distinctive margin to it where you know, you're saying,
27:19
Speaker 1: somebody struck you with a phone. Look, you can try
27:22
Speaker 1: to sell it to me all day long. I'm not
27:23
Speaker 1: going to believe it because the science doesn't back it up.
27:26
Speaker 1: It's it's nonsensical to me, and it seems like it's
27:29
Speaker 1: something that is a total contrivancy to me. Did Julie
27:32
Speaker 1: Owens joining a special guest victim advocate with a domestic
27:36
Speaker 1: violence Expert consulting group. You can find her a Domestic
27:40
Speaker 1: Violence Expert dot org. Julie, here's the problem. As you know,
27:47
Speaker 1: I prosecuted domestic violence for many many years. Usually well
27:51
Speaker 1: always by the time I got them, they were an
27:53
Speaker 1: aggravated battery or a homicide. The fact act Julie that
28:02
Speaker 1: someone actually walked up to me and Target and said,
28:04
Speaker 1: do you think Amber heard faked her bruises? If it's
28:08
Speaker 1: at that point where somebody on the jury thinks, well,
28:13
Speaker 1: did she fake her bruce that day? Because if she
28:16
Speaker 1: faked a bruise one time, her case is right down
28:19
Speaker 1: the crapper. There's really no way to say it anymore nicely,
28:23
Speaker 1: even if Depp had beaten her. If she is suspected
28:27
Speaker 1: of faking bruises or setting up photo hits like this
28:31
Speaker 1: with TMZ, it's over. Well, you're right, And I think
28:34
Speaker 1: that's why the perception of the jury and the public
28:37
Speaker 1: has been so skewed. I don't know if she faked
28:42
Speaker 1: a bruise or not. I do know I am convinced,
28:46
Speaker 1: without a doubt that he battered her, and he abused
28:50
Speaker 1: her in every way that he is textbook abuser, and
28:55
Speaker 1: victims are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
28:57
Speaker 1: Whatever they say is going to be used to in them.
29:00
Speaker 1: And this case is what I call a classic case
29:03
Speaker 1: of Darvos denied attacks reverse the victim and offender, and
29:08
Speaker 1: that is what happened. It happens every single day in
29:10
Speaker 1: pults across the country and criminal cults were victims are
29:14
Speaker 1: arrested after they had defended themselves in civil courts and
29:18
Speaker 1: the abusers get restraining orders against them in family courts
29:22
Speaker 1: when they are made to look crazy or unstable or dangerous,
29:28
Speaker 1: and they lose customer of their children. This is a
29:31
Speaker 1: classic tactic of abusers. He had all the assets, all
29:36
Speaker 1: the money, all the resources to make Holt look like
29:40
Speaker 1: a liar and crazy, and he did. And she's not perfect,
29:45
Speaker 1: she's not very likable frankly, as it's been said. But
29:50
Speaker 1: that's not what this is. As you said, mentheis vas
29:52
Speaker 1: hardy contest. The fact is he did abuse her. He
29:57
Speaker 1: abused her in many ways. He he acknowledged that he
30:01
Speaker 1: wanted to kill her. He said it, and still he wins.
30:08
Speaker 1: And this is exactly what she was saying in her
30:12
Speaker 1: off d This is what happens when a victim comes forward.
30:17
Speaker 1: Instead of looking at the abuser, the focus goes on
30:20
Speaker 1: the victim and parrying her apart until everybody forgets that
30:25
Speaker 1: there was an abuser here, that is what has happened
30:29
Speaker 1: to amber Heard time stories with Nancy Grace, sensational testimony
30:54
Speaker 1: that would normally send somebody to jail. Amber Heard describes
30:59
Speaker 1: for the jury being raped by Johnny Depp with a
31:03
Speaker 1: wine bottle. Listen, which is the pressure on my pubic bone?
31:09
Speaker 1: And I don't know. I I don't remember what I said.
31:35
Speaker 1: I just remember being really still not wanting to move.
31:42
Speaker 1: I remember looking around the room, I remember looking at
31:49
Speaker 1: all the broken bottles, broken glass, and I remember her
31:56
Speaker 1: that it's just not wanting to move because I didn't
32:02
Speaker 1: know if it was broken. I didn't know if the
32:03
Speaker 1: bottle that he had inside me was broken. I couldn't
32:09
Speaker 1: feel it. I couldn't feel it. I didn't feel me,
32:12
Speaker 1: many people wondered, Julie Owens. Amber Heard is educated, sophisticated,
32:20
Speaker 1: has money, has contacts, has a supportive family, has a
32:24
Speaker 1: whole team around her, Julie. Most women say that if
32:30
Speaker 1: they were raped by a wine bottle or cavity search
32:35
Speaker 1: for drugs, as Heart also stated, they would be long gone.
32:39
Speaker 1: They'd be on the phone call in nine one one
32:41
Speaker 1: and having a police report and a claim of rape
32:47
Speaker 1: at the very least would leave. Now, I know from
32:51
Speaker 1: working at the Battered Women's Center that many women feel
32:56
Speaker 1: they have to stay in the relationship for their children.
33:00
Speaker 1: They don't have money, they don't have a means of escape,
33:03
Speaker 1: they're afraid they'll be killed. None of that is true
33:07
Speaker 1: in this scenario. And I can bet you everything I've
33:12
Speaker 1: got if I were raped with a wine bottle, I
33:15
Speaker 1: would leave number one, take my children with me. Number two,
33:22
Speaker 1: get a divorce, and go to the police station and
33:25
Speaker 1: make a claim. But that didn't happen, Julie Owens. Many
33:32
Speaker 1: legal legals believe if this scenario had scenario really taken place,
33:36
Speaker 1: Amberhard would have been long gone and want to call
33:39
Speaker 1: a police. But that didn't happen on any of the
33:42
Speaker 1: alleged sex attacks. That's right, and it doesn't surprise me
33:45
Speaker 1: one bit. Frankly, as I said, I have posstims for
33:48
Speaker 1: a stay of years, thousands of them, and it doesn't
33:52
Speaker 1: surprise me at all. No matter how heinous the act,
33:56
Speaker 1: and a victim doesn't come fall and this is a
33:59
Speaker 1: postage of a white they are not believed, They will
34:04
Speaker 1: not be believed. It will be turned against them, especially
34:07
Speaker 1: when the abuser is someone who is so well loved
34:11
Speaker 1: and so powerful they don't even bother. And I believe
34:19
Speaker 1: completely that this probably happened, because false allegations don't sound
34:23
Speaker 1: like this. Who says they got raped with the line battle?
34:27
Speaker 1: Come on? This is a classic ring of truth kind
34:32
Speaker 1: of a thing. For me, I believe it did happen.
34:35
Speaker 1: And I know other things that are even worse that
34:39
Speaker 1: it happened when victims had not gone forward because they
34:42
Speaker 1: were as saved, because they didn't know it's big, We're
34:48
Speaker 1: going to get worse. They didn't know what it was
34:51
Speaker 1: going to go from there. Gerald Cohen, you and I've
34:53
Speaker 1: tried a lot of cases, including before you were a
34:56
Speaker 1: civil attorney. You prosecuted many rape cases, as did I
35:01
Speaker 1: of adult females as well as child molestation, but right
35:04
Speaker 1: now I'm talking about adult females. One thing I would
35:08
Speaker 1: always look for, and this is before there was DNA
35:12
Speaker 1: readily attainable, is an outcry witness. An outcry witness is
35:20
Speaker 1: someone the victim tells, doesn't have to be immediately, tells
35:27
Speaker 1: what happened. It could be a cop, it could be
35:30
Speaker 1: a rape counselor it could be your mother, It could
35:32
Speaker 1: be a friend, it could be anybody. That's one thing
35:38
Speaker 1: that would have corroborated Amber Heard's testimony, but we didn't
35:43
Speaker 1: get that at all on any of these claims. Daryl Cohen, Well, Nancy,
35:50
Speaker 1: it is possible. It is possible in her own mind,
35:54
Speaker 1: Johnny is cooler than I am. Johnny is a bigger
35:57
Speaker 1: box office hit than I am. I am was struggling,
36:00
Speaker 1: though I'm doing pretty well as an actor, and I
36:04
Speaker 1: don't want to tell anybody. I'm so embarrassed, so terribly embarrassed,
36:09
Speaker 1: that I just can't say anything to anyone because it
36:13
Speaker 1: will just destroy me. That's a possibility. But also with Amber,
36:17
Speaker 1: she had put up a cloak of badness. I talked
36:22
Speaker 1: about hair and makeup. I want to add to it,
36:24
Speaker 1: facial expressions. I want to add to it body language.
36:28
Speaker 1: That's what the jury saw and heard, and you can
36:31
Speaker 1: only have one chance to make a first impression. She
36:35
Speaker 1: didn't make a good impression, and I'm wondering if the
36:38
Speaker 1: jury actually did anything other than just pay a little
36:42
Speaker 1: bit of Okay, Yeah, she's testifying. Do I believe her? No?
36:47
Speaker 1: Why because I don't like her? Why because she lied
36:50
Speaker 1: on other things, as you have pointed out. Why because
36:54
Speaker 1: Johnny is really a good guy and you know, he's
36:57
Speaker 1: admitted that he's got this drug problems, admitted he has
37:00
Speaker 1: his alcohol problem. But oh my gosh, that great pirate.
37:05
Speaker 1: He would never hurt a woman. He may scream, he
37:08
Speaker 1: may drink, he may do all these things, but he
37:11
Speaker 1: will never hurt anybody physically. I believe him because I
37:15
Speaker 1: want to well, speaking of that, I want to follow
37:19
Speaker 1: up on exactly what you're saying. I considered the testimony
37:24
Speaker 1: of movie star Ellen Barkin to be very significant. When
37:31
Speaker 1: I first listened to her testimony, I felt that it
37:35
Speaker 1: would help Amber heard because she describes in great detail
37:40
Speaker 1: that Johnny Depp is mean, he's jealous, he's volatile, he's angry,
37:46
Speaker 1: he's drunk or high all the time, and he's not
37:50
Speaker 1: afraid to cause a ruckus. She describes having a wine
37:56
Speaker 1: bottle thrown in her direction, not necessarily at her, but
38:00
Speaker 1: in her direction while dept was having an argument with
38:04
Speaker 1: somebody else. They were all in the room together. Listen
38:07
Speaker 1: to Ellen Barkin, mister Depp threw a wine bottle across
38:12
Speaker 1: the room, the hotel room on one instance in Las Vegas,
38:16
Speaker 1: while we were shooting Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas,
38:20
Speaker 1: were you was something about to happen. The fight was
38:23
Speaker 1: going on between you and mister depa. No, who was
38:27
Speaker 1: the fight between between Johnny Depp and his friends in
38:32
Speaker 1: the room the assistant. Honestly, I don't remember. And the
38:37
Speaker 1: bottle that do you remember? Sitting here today is Barkin?
38:40
Speaker 1: Whether the bottle was full of wine or empty? I
38:43
Speaker 1: don't Sitting here today is Barkin. Do you remember whether
38:48
Speaker 1: the bottle hit you? No? It did not. Did the
38:52
Speaker 1: bottle hit anyone else? No? It did not. Approximately how
38:56
Speaker 1: far away from you was mister Depp when he threw
39:00
Speaker 1: the bottom across the room. So maybe by that break
39:04
Speaker 1: in the table a little further down it was a toss.
39:09
Speaker 1: I thought that would really help Amber heard. But on
39:14
Speaker 1: second thought, as I analyzed it, it turns out to
39:18
Speaker 1: really corroborate what Johnny Depp said that he would throw things,
39:22
Speaker 1: that he would bang habinets and kick things and beat
39:25
Speaker 1: the wall. But never did Barkin state she was harmed.
39:32
Speaker 1: Listen to Barkin, you just use the word jealous. How
39:35
Speaker 1: did that come up? What does he say that indicated
39:39
Speaker 1: to you that you was jealous? He's just a jealous man,
39:42
Speaker 1: controlling Where are you going? Who are you going with? Well,
39:45
Speaker 1: what did you do last night? I had a scratch
39:48
Speaker 1: on my back once that got him very very angry
39:51
Speaker 1: because he insisted it came from me having sex with
39:54
Speaker 1: a person who wasn't During the time that you were
39:58
Speaker 1: in a sexual relationship with mister DApp, was it common
40:02
Speaker 1: for him to say things to you about being controlling,
40:05
Speaker 1: to us your words, or being jealous, yeah, Harry common.
40:12
Speaker 1: And when in these instances, when mister Steph became jealous
40:19
Speaker 1: or controlling, did he also become angry? Yeah? And demanding two.
40:25
Speaker 1: Doctor Charles Hell are joining me, forensic psychologist, I'd like
40:28
Speaker 1: to hear what you think about that. Yeah, with all
40:31
Speaker 1: due respects, I disagree with what Julie said. I understand
40:37
Speaker 1: that she is an expert in domestic violence. I'm also
40:41
Speaker 1: an expert in domestic violence, and I also treat patience,
40:46
Speaker 1: and I also know about the truth about the frequency
40:50
Speaker 1: of false allegations, and they have to be assessed, and
40:54
Speaker 1: we can't just generally accept everything and accuser says. For example,
41:01
Speaker 1: and Julie said that Johnny Depp said that he wanted
41:05
Speaker 1: to kill Hamber, Well, that's not really correct. He said
41:10
Speaker 1: that he did write those texts, which I believe were
41:14
Speaker 1: more tongue in cheek than actual threats. He didn't want
41:18
Speaker 1: to kill her, but this is the Niets and daughter
41:23
Speaker 1: Charles Heller. I don't believe, and of course I have
41:26
Speaker 1: to go read his text to find out. But the
41:27
Speaker 1: last time I tried to read them, my eyes started
41:29
Speaker 1: bleeding because they were so boring. I don't believe my
41:32
Speaker 1: husband would ever write a text about my rotting corpse
41:36
Speaker 1: in the trunk of a car, Nor would I. I
41:39
Speaker 1: didn't even say it tastes like dirt my mouth say
41:42
Speaker 1: that about my husband ever never. Well, that's true, But
41:48
Speaker 1: you know, people have idiosyncrasies. It doesn't mean that what
41:52
Speaker 1: they type are going to see what they're gonna say.
41:54
Speaker 1: That's on the pig calling it an idiosyncrasy, Julie, I
41:59
Speaker 1: I find that more than an idiosyncrasy. I mean, I
42:01
Speaker 1: know in my mind, as a veteran trial lawyer, why
42:06
Speaker 1: this jury found for Depp because they did not like
42:10
Speaker 1: Amber heard. They thought she lied, They thought she set
42:14
Speaker 1: him up for money, and that this was a part
42:16
Speaker 1: of the setup, and they didn't want anything to do
42:18
Speaker 1: with it. They weren't having it. That's why I think happened. Yeah,
42:22
Speaker 1: I know, she did lie. But what I'm saying, Julie Owens,
42:28
Speaker 1: texts like that are not just an idiosyncrasy. When you're
42:31
Speaker 1: talking about your exes did rotting corpse and how you
42:35
Speaker 1: want to make sure she's dead to you gonna effort
42:38
Speaker 1: first the corpse, that's not an idiosyncrasy exactly. You said it, Nancy.
42:45
Speaker 1: And somebody said, said, Jesse, why did he Why didn't
42:49
Speaker 1: Kate Moss, Why didn't Ellen Dark say that they were used?
42:53
Speaker 1: You know why? Because this was a man who said,
42:56
Speaker 1: we're married. Now I can punch her in the face
42:59
Speaker 1: and no one can do anything about it. Well, speaking
43:02
Speaker 1: of that, what about his wife, Vanessa Paradies. She never
43:05
Speaker 1: came forward with any claim. They wasn't called. They were
43:09
Speaker 1: never married, but they were in a monogamous common law relationship. Oh, agreed, agreed.
43:17
Speaker 1: But if if the argument is when him saying she's
43:20
Speaker 1: my wife now I can beat her, he technically was
43:22
Speaker 1: never married to Vanessa Parades, so maybe he was waiting
43:25
Speaker 1: for that. I'm not buying the distinction that you have
43:28
Speaker 1: to be married to him to a wife beater for
43:31
Speaker 1: him to beat you. I don't think that holds up
43:34
Speaker 1: with Depp. I don't think the marriage certificate makes the difference.
43:38
Speaker 1: I think that the jury knew about Vanessa Paradies. I
43:42
Speaker 1: think that they knew about Ellen Barkin obviously, and they
43:47
Speaker 1: heard from Barkin, and they heard from Moss. None of
43:51
Speaker 1: those women would state that Depp beat them, and I
43:56
Speaker 1: think that that all culminated in this verdict. I believe
44:01
Speaker 1: they thought Amber heard lied. Guys, we know now that
44:06
Speaker 1: an appeal is on. What about it, Kaitlin Backer, They're
44:10
Speaker 1: already talking about an appeal. They are already talking about
44:13
Speaker 1: an appeal. Pretty much immediately after the verdict came down,
44:16
Speaker 1: they were talking about an appeal. Amber heard her team
44:19
Speaker 1: is certainly going to appeal, and at the very least,
44:21
Speaker 1: they're probably going to try to get that number of
44:24
Speaker 1: the damages reduced because as we know, she doesn't have
44:27
Speaker 1: that kind of money. She didn't have the money to
44:30
Speaker 1: pay the acou donation. She's not that wealthy from what
44:34
Speaker 1: I understand, and it looks like her acting gigs have dried.
44:37
Speaker 1: App what's going to happen next, Well, one thing we know,
44:42
Speaker 1: there's no way to predict what will happen in depth.
44:46
Speaker 1: They heard Nancy Grace Crown's story signing off goodbye, for