Latest / Claymore: Become Who You Are / #515 From Vatican II to Pope Francis: Challenges and the Quest for Truth in the Catholic Faith: With Aurelio Porfiri, Composer, Author and Historian

Transcript

#515 From Vatican II to Pope Francis: Challenges and the Quest for Truth in the Catholic Faith: With Aurelio Porfiri, Composer, Author and Historian · Claymore: Become Who You Are

• 0:10
  Speaker 1: I am so grateful and fortunate to be back with Aurelio Porfiri.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Aurelio, good to see you, good to see you.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me again.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Yes, it's my pleasure and you know I'm very grateful to be able to talk to you about something that's been on my mind.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: I get questions all the time, and that question and I'll get to it in a minute.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: I want to tell you just a little bit about my boyhood and quickly remind people that if you want to see the video podcast of the same interview with Aurelio, go to our website, which I'll have in the show notes, or go to X.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: I came into the church.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: My first Holy Communion was at the traditional Latin Mass before the Novus Ordo, so I was born in the 50s.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: I know I look like a young kid, but I was born in the 50s.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Indeed, yes, yes.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: And then in 1969, of course, the mass was changed.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: I was about 11, 12 years old then and a lot of things changed.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: A lot of things changed and I remember already Aurelio, thinking to myself wow, I thought the church had the truth, you know, I remember as a boy and it stuck with me a long time.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: And then the nuns started to take off their habits and wear regular clothes.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: A lot of changes.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: I had what was called the Baltimore Catechism when I was a child, and then they got rid of it and they didn't replace it, aurelio, with anything, they just left us in a vacuum.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: So I would leave the church.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: Soon after that, I was 16 years old and and I remember the mass at our parish, uh, the pastor was pretty progressive and he brought in a guitar player and drums and got away from the organ and, and you know, you would think I would like that, you know, but I didn't like it.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: You know, I I something special was going on at the mass.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: I wanted to be a priest, even.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: And then boom, all the changes came.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: So here's what I thought I thought, well, I thought the church had the truth.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: But in my mind, right, I'm a young boy, right, and I said, uh, well, if she doesn't have the truth, it's my job to go out.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: And, you know, maybe a different faith has the truth.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: You know, I put doubts.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: I didn't have the doubts before.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: And then, of course, we know, sexual revolution came in the 60s and the 70s, the pill came in.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: All kinds of changes, you know, wars in the United States with the Vietnam War, all kinds of different things, right?
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: So what happens?
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: So I came back into the church in my late 30s and when I was talking to Orthodox, and this is the question I was going to have for you, and when I was talking to Orthodox, and this is the question I was going to have for you.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: As I'm talking to Orthodox Catholics, let's call it traditional Catholics.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: You make the point in the book that traditional Catholics not one kind right, there's different ways to look at it, but they blamed everything on Vatican II.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: So what I did and here's going to start my question right.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: So I went back later on and I read those documents, a lot of those documents, especially the four constitutional documents, but many of the other ones, and the one that I really read was on the Mass, because the Mass touched me the most.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: Always, when I came back into the Church, I had an encounter with Christ in the Eucharist.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: I knew that Christ was in that Eucharist, so I went back to study the Mass.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: As I read Sacrosanctum Concilium from Vatican II, I realized all the changes that I experienced as a boy.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: They were not called for in that document, and so my question is kind of two parts.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: One is you know the you?
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: You heard the fallacy, polk hoc, fallacy, polk, uh, post hoc, fallacy right.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: So post hoc, uh, ergo, uh, proctor hoc, right in latin, which means, since event y followed event x, then event y must have been caused by X, you know?
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: And like the rooster is crows in the morning before the sun comes out, so the rooster caused the sun to come out, right, you could think that way.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: So all of my friends who are more Orthodox said well, jack, it's all because of Vatican II.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: And certainly there was something to do with Vatican II, right, obviously, and certainly there was something to do with Vatican II, right, obviously.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: But as I read the documents, aurelio, I didn't really see it in the documents and so when I got your book, I thought oh my gosh, you did such a beautiful job of kind of going to the roots and unpacking this all.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: And I know I'm going on a little long.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: Here was, I know, my parents were surprised when John XXIII called for an ecumenical council for the universal church and they were wondering why, you know, and later on everybody would say that he was a progressive.
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: And he was, you know.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: But I look back at his earlier you know, work and talks.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: He didn't seem like a progressive to me.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: So I got really confused and I went back and I was very grateful to be able to be on the show with you today to unpack some of these things, and for the people that don't know you from the last show, let me just give a little background on you.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: Okay, so Aurelio Porfiri is an Italian composer, conductor, educator and writer.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: He's a renowned expert in sacred music and a scholar also on China and Catholic traditionalism.
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: Among other things, he's a co-author with Bishop Athanasius Schneider.
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: People should get this book.
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: I really love the book the Catholic Mass, already translated into several languages.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: You're a contributor to major Catholic and conservative blogs in Italy, france, the United States and inside the Vatican.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: That magazine included you in the top 10 most influential people in 2021.
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: So congratulations on that Well deserved, aurelio, for all the work you do.
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: So hey, luska, that was a long intro and a couple of questions.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: I'm going to throw it back in your court, sir.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: Yes, indeed, the questions you ask are quite kind of complex, are quite kind of complex.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: So, first of all, in my book on Catholic traditionalism I mention that it's not correct to point to the Vatican II as the starting of the problems Because, as you read in my book, indeed I start at least from modernism.
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: I mean what happened, even if, as you correctly say, if the documents, for example, you mentioned Sacrosanctum Concilium in the way that it's written, it didn't say what then happened in the reality of our churches that moment there was a movement that was already going on and was already trying to impose their agenda and of course, during the Vatican II, this movement we may say progressive Catholics movement, we may say progressive Catholics.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: Of course they won that battle, because I always say that people think that during Vatican II, the conciliar fathers, there was a little group where the conservative fathers that we call the Cetus, you know the one that was Monsignor Lefebvre and other, the Castromaier and other bishops, and then we imagine there is the big majority that was progressive.
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: But indeed, as also Professor Roberto de Mattei pointed out in his book about Vatican II, that was not the case.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: Basically there were two minorities, one of the progressive and the other of the conservative, and in the middle there was the neutral group of bishops.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: That was the majority.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: So everybody, aurelio, everybody was not looking for major changes, right yeah?
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: exactly.
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: In other words the way you're looking at it is.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: It wasn't nefarious, right?
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: It wasn't just something evil that was going on as a whole.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: There are some groups that were trying to, you know, change, and maybe evil is the wrong word, right?
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, some evil came in.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: You know, Pope Paul VI talked about the smoke of Satan.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: We knew something was in the church, was it?
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: Were those progressive groups?
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: What was the in your mind, aurelio?
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: Were they looking for good?
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: Were they trying to do good things and thought, or was it not For sure?
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: I think that there were people that were in perfect good faith.
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: They really thought that implementing certain changes, even in the liturgy, would bring good to the people.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: But indeed, for the most part, history proved them wrong because we saw, for example, in the liturgy, they make the changes because they say they want to involve more the people, to participate, but indeed the people not only do not participate more, but do not participate at all, because a lot of people is leaving our churches.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: So this is why, in my book, I have a certain method, and my method is not only to speak about Catholic traditionalism in itself, but I always speak on the background of what happened with Catholic progressivism, because I don't think you can understand traditionalism if you don't understand how progressives were trying their best to impose the agenda.
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: So in a certain way, the traditionalism is just a reaction to this kind of situation, a reaction that is still going on.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: But of course the progressives were much better in running the game.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: They get very important position in the church, they get in the universities and so on and so forth.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: So of course they play very well their game and now they are the one winning now, until now, yeah, so do you think?
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: because we did see, I mean the product of the Novus Ordo mass coming in, just the facts, right, I mean, and what caused it exactly?
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: There was a lot of things going on in the culture and in the world, but, let's face it, people left the church and you know, they rejected Humanae Vitae, they rejected a lot of things the church taught, rejected Humanae Vitae, they rejected a lot of things the church taught.
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: So I think the progressives had a voice right, because people wanted to go along with some of those changes.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: But then the people that were traditionally minded, they like me, they were either hurt by all those changes or they thought, well, maybe she doesn't have the truth, maybe the church doesn't have the truth.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: So my question for you is this If the changes, and when I read, and just for everybody so they know, the document that we're talking about on the Mass right, sacro Sanctum Concilium.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: It's on the Mass, it's on the liturgy, the liturgy as a whole.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: Of course, the main liturgy is our Mass.
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: Do you think, aurelio, that if they would have followed the changes for the Mass would have followed that document and didn't go?
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: Because it didn't call for all these changes, it called for Latin, still for sacred music.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: I think I would have liked the changes that that brought, because I remember my grandmother and my grandfathers I mean, they would pray the rosary during the Mass because they were like disconnected.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: So I think there was something there.
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: They wanted to connect them better to what was going on at the altar and at the Mass, and I would find myself my mind, you know, thinking about other things a lot of times, you know, at the Mass, and I think those changes would have been good.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: I think they were just really too fast and I think they were too drastic.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: But anyways, my question being if they would have changed the way the document said it in Vatican II, do you think we would have had that exodus from the Church?
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: Yes, Before answering this I want to make a little remark on what you say about the people that they don't understand and so they say the rosary or other things.
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: You know, we have to be aware not to make the mistake that we think we go to the mass like we go to a meeting.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, in the mass of course we can understand certain things, but we don't have to understand everything, because if we understand everything it's no more a mass.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's like a human meeting.
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a human meeting.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: But the mass is a mystery.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: So of course there are things we are not supposed to understand fully.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: And I think that what was the purpose of the mass we call now Betus Ordo?
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: It was really to create the sense of the sacred, of the mystery of the adoration.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: So, unfortunately, what happened is that, with this idea of we have to understand everything, we have reduced the mass to something that lacks all of these things I have said now, so lack the sense of the sacred, lack the sense of mystery and lack the sense of adoration.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: So in answering, I want to say that certainly, if they would implement what was prescribed in Sacrosancto Concilium at the beginning even if Sacrosancto Concilium, of course, is a document of compromise between the more progressive and the others, but certainly I think there would be much less necessity for traditionalist groups to protest, like traditionalist groups to protest, because at least they would conserve, preserve Latin and the Gregorian chant and the reverence and the organ and the polyphony and the choir, all things that indeed are requested in Sacrosanctum Concilium.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: But after Vatican II, basically, we were fighting with the maximum strength, so much that today it's very rare you go in a church and a priest says anything in Latin.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: Very, very rare, if not almost not possible, that you go to a church I mean the Novus Ordo, of course where they sing in Gorean chant or in polyphony, or sometimes they kick out the choir, the organist, and they destroy all liturgical books.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, basically, they are doing the opposite respect what was mandated by Vatican II.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: So I really don't understand when we say this we are the first in defending the Vatican II, but these people say that we are against the spirit of Vatican II.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: Of course, if you speak about the spirit, we can say everything.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: You may say, oh, I really don't like this, and I say, oh, yes, maybe Jack said that, but I know that the spirit of what Jack wants to say is that and that I mean we can interpret in many different ways.
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: So I was just having this discussion not too long ago, aurelio, with a good friend, a good Catholic man.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: Discussion not too long ago, aurelio, with a good friend, good Catholic man, and the question came up why would Pope Paul VI give his okay, then right, his approval to the Novus Ordo Mass the way it was?
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, something happened there, right Between.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: You said the compromise already with the document was already a compromise, so that was far enough.
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: What happened with Pope Paul VI and you know, when people say that he was really a progressive or whatever, I don't know all those things, but I do remind them of Humanae Vitae.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, he had a lot of pressure and he stuck with that and I always will respect him for that.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: And I know John Paul II, who I have much respect for.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: His whole work on theology of the body was because he was asked basically by Pope Paul VI to come up with a scriptural, biblical defense really for that right, an understanding of Humanae Vitae.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: So I know in his heart he wasn't going to just throw everything out, you know.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: So do you have a feel for what happened in between?
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: I think that you know, Paul VI is called the Amletic Pope because indeed he was a mystery himself, because indeed he was a mystery himself In certain things.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: Indeed, he said certain things that really appeal to the traditionalists, certainly, but we have also to say that he also favored some Catholic progressives, maybe because he thought the certain changes that would bring new life to the church.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: But, as we have seen, that was not what happened.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: And I think also, when you say, but why did things then develop in the way they are?
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: They have developed because I think, as I say for the progressives, they were very good in taking the important positions.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: So when there was the Vatican II and also then the commissions, and of course they put most their men.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: So it's true that maybe the documents are not so extreme, but then of course what matters is also the commissions and the attempt to implement these documents.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: And of course in these commissions there were a lot of these progressives that you know.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: They interpret the document in the way they think will favor what they want to promote.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: So they're really hijacking it on their own.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: Do you think, john?
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: So Paul VI?
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: Of course he gets a mandate from John XXIII, right?
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, john XXIII is the one who called for this ecumenical council and then he dies, right, and Pope Paul VI steps into this.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: Do you think that he was trying to follow this mandate from John the 23rd?
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: Because, again, when I read John the 23rd, it's like opening statements and stuff.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: They're beautiful, unless I'm missing something.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: They're really beautiful.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: It seems like he really wanted to bring the spirit in and to be able to go out and do good things in the world.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: I don't see any, just myself and the question being what am I missing there?
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: Am I missing something?
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, he seemed like he called this.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: It seemed like a Holy Spirit moment.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: What happened, aurelio?
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: What happened?
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: No, that is something that many people ask to themselves.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: Also, because we need to remember that, very little before the beginning of Vatican II, pope John XXIII published a document called Veterum Sapientia, and this document was a document in which he praised Latin language and also emphasized the importance to maintain this language in the life of the Church and in her liturgy.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: So this is only really little before the beginning of the church and in her liturgy.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: So this is only really little before the beginning of Vatican II.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: And then we saw what happened to Latin, for example.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: I think that himself, john XXIII, he was, you know, the son of very humble people, simple people, and certainly he was not what we may say a progressive.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: But maybe, I think, he was somehow naive.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: You know, he thought that doing certain things would not bring any harm.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: Doing certain things would not bring any harm.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: And unfortunately he died quite soon, during the council, because the council started in 1962 and he died in 1963.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: In 1963.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: So, you know, he only lived in the council for not so long, but maybe he didn't imagine that the council would go in that kind of direction.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: Also, I want to remind you that in the famous speech of the moon, the speech he made in the day of the beginning of Vatican II.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: He said something very interesting.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: That also let us understand.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: What was his own mindset about the Council.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: He said oh, we started the council and probably we will be finished by December.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: So he started in October, he thought he would finish after two months and he did the council go on then for three years.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: So he probably didn't expect what happened.
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: And of he probably didn't expect what happened.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: And of course he didn't see because then it came Paul VI that he was a different personality.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: You know, like an intellectual he was very fascinated by modern culture, by French culture.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, he was really a different kind of person.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and I wonder if John Paul II wrote about this later on Aurelio, that he thought divine providence was at work here, that there was real evil elements.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: Look, this starts in the human heart.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: This is a battle of the human heart.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: It gets into all our institutions we see today, right, so I'm going to move you forward just a little bit.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: So we see this in all our institutions today.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: They seem infected by this spirit right, of whatever they call it, but really it's a way that I could reject God.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: In essence, it goes back to Genesis 3, huh, I can be like God.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: We have to be very, very careful.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: I can call good evil, evil good.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: So I work with these young people and this was a question you address right in the book and they ask me.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: Often they go to the traditional Latin mass.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: They find a traditional Latin mass.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: I'm outside of Chicago, there's a few in.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: They're packed.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: They're packed with young couples, young people with families and stuff.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: And so is the solution, as they say, to go back Aurelio, to go back to traditionalism?
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: Is that the solution?
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: Because we're in a crisis, but is the crisis just between good and evil in general?
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: And and just because we go back.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: It's not going to solve everything, but for those families, for those families they want to find a good community they want to raise.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: So it's kind of a two-part question, right, it may not solve all our problems, but for those families in the church today that are confused, aurelio, what would you tell them, these young families that are trying to find like I said when I started out, I want to find the truth, we want to find the truth.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: What is the truth?
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: And they see all these changes and I think they want something solid in their lives, aurelio.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: Right, they want something that they can put their foundation on, and, of course, jesus Christ is that foundation, and that's what they find in the liturgy, you know when it's beautiful, and that's what they tell me.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: This is not easy to answer, but what I say is this Traditionalism is a kind of emergency measure.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: You know, like you say, we have a very big crisis.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: The situation is really crazy.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: So, yes, we go to this traditionalism so that we have some kind of refreshment for our soul and for our spirit.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: But for me, the danger is that some people think that tradition, being traditionalist, is like a permanent state, but indeed is not, because if we think that the truth is in the church, regardless of what is happening today, so we cannot say, oh okay, the truth is in the church, but I live in a certain kind of separate, you know, because that is for me the danger that the people then do not want to go back to what is, because if we think like that, we are like Protestant, you know, and I mean, yeah, believe me, I share the majority of the things that traditionalists put forward.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: I mean, I believe they are right, but I never forget that, first of all, as I think I said the other time, I don't like to be called traditionalist.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: You do, or?
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: you don't, I don't you other time I don't like to be called traditionalist.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: You do or you don't I don't, you don't, I don't.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: I don't want to be called traditionalist.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: Yes, what title Do we need a label?
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: I'm Catholic, right Catholic.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: If somebody was going to try to label you, what label would you accept?
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: Catholic, yes, yes.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: That, yes, that is it.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: Yes, and so the tradition is coming down to us all the way from the apostles.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: So we have the tradition already and so we have to grasp that.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: I think what happens is people see all the changes and they think we must be getting away from that.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: They're looking for that line, that deposit of faith, really, I think.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: I think that's what's in their hearts.
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: Certainly these people, in perfectly good faith and with very good intention, they are trying a way to cope with the situation and I understand that, but we don't have to take the risk that we create a sort of alternative.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: Just like the Vatican II Council, maybe they were a little naive.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: John XXIII right, you know they're trying to do good things, but you have to be very careful, right, with what we do, just like today.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: Now we see in the Church, right, there's a lot of misunderstandings in the church.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: Right now we see it with Pope Francis.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: I think this is what gets to the young people, aurelio, and I know these are tough questions, right, but I know we're going to run out of time and I don't want to forget to get this one in, because these are questions they're asking me all the time.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: All these people they say okay, jack, well, how about Paul Francis?
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: He says one thing but then he actually does another thing.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: He, he'll say something that sounds right, but you know, personnel, we have a saying, right, uh, personnel is policy and we do it in business.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: I I could say one thing, but if I put the uh, someone in office, I know they're, they're not going to, you know're not going to carry out some other agenda except for the one they already carry in their heart.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: And so he's appointing people and bringing people in to the Vatican and around him that seem to be very, very progressive.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: And I'll give you an example that you alluded to in the book too.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: That's always on our heart.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: Give you an example that you alluded to in the book too.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: That's always on our heart when Morris Letizia came out and then we have the Dubia cardinals, and he won't see them.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: And yet it's not that much later that he brings in Father James Martin and many, many others.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: You state them in your book and let me just reiterate, in case I didn't.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: The book is the Right Hand of the Lord is Exalted.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: I may not have said that in the beginning I will make sure I get this in the show notes but it's an excellent book.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: The Right Hand of the Lord is Exalted, and you unpack these things.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: But what about Pope Francis, when we're trying to find the truth?
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: So in 2007, I think it was Pope Benedict XVI comes out with his Samorum Pontificum, which granted greater leeway for the traditional Latin mass.
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: I thought that was a good middle ground.
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: Right, and because he's doing what you said earlier, he's trying to unite us so we don't become like Protestants and go all over.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: He says there's two ways basically to celebrate the mass.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: Right, in essence and if I'm using the wrong terminology, you can correct me, okay, because I don't want.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: And then it's not much longer after that I mean 2021, pope Francis comes in with Traditiones, custodes and restricts it again and you go.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: You know these people are like pulling their hair out, you know.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: And where do we go with that?
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: You know, especially with somebody, we had John Paul II.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: You could agree with some things he did, you could disagree, but you knew he had a love for the church.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: You know he had a love for our Blessed Mother, for the sacrament, for the mass.
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: You could tell, I don't care if he made some mistakes.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, of course we care if he made a mistake or two, maybe he did whatever, but you know his general heart was there.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: Ratzinger, same thing, right, pope Benedict XVI.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: We had confidence in him.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: Maybe he's not perfect, he's still a man but we had confidence that he was going to do his best, right, and so we can get behind him.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: But then we get somebody like Pope Francis that seems like he just wants to confuse us again.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: And I don't want to be too harsh, but it does get me upset, right, because I'm working with a lot of people coming back into the church and they're confused and they go.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: Jack, I was coming into the church.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: Here's my point.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: I was coming into the church because I see all the evil and confusion in the world, and now your own pope is confusing me.
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: Jack, what do I do?
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: I know?
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: Another tough question, really.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: No, maybe we've got to stop and have a glass of wine in between, right, Because these are tough questions right?
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: The answer is that I know and I can recognize that for many people the actions of Pope Francis are puzzling.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: Certainly, sometimes you don't know exactly what is his own idea.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: For example, I don't know if you have the occasion to read one of my articles, the most recent article in 1 Peter 5, where I comment on the phrase that he says, the word he says about homosexuals, that is a kind of heavy word, you know, that is a kind of heavy word, you know.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: But in one side, you know, it seems like the herald of these people.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: But in the other side, even if I think that the kind of word was misinterpreted, because with that word in Italian I give an explanation but also I give some etymologies of that word that word in Italian is not against homosexual people but it's more against homosexual culture.
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: So what the Pope was trying to condemn was the homosexual culture in the seminaries.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: Of course, then the it you say we use also among ourselves.
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: We say this word that it means the homosexual culture.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: But saying that, I think it's true that sometimes the Pope confuses a lot.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: If you ask me what is the reason of this, of course I don of doing things and acting is not the way maybe we were used.
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: I don't mean that what he's doing is good, but I think it's, you know, the same, like with American cardinals, like I know several American cardinals, like I know several American cardinals and I saw, of course, the way they act, they approach is very American.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: So maybe if one day one of them would become the Pope, we will be surprised for certain things, because we are not used to that kind of behavior.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: But of course I don't want to say that the fact that he's Latin American is an excuse for all the things he's doing.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: Of course this is a time of great confusion in the church.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: Of course this is a time of great confusion in the church and we have to hope that God will give us a clear sign and will let us understand what is going on and will give us the strength to sustain this great sufferance and this great stress and this great stress and frustration that we are living, because of course we want to kick the faith in the Catholic Church, but we are also, we have a kind of internal fight, so we have to pray and I think that's where the question comes.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: We have a kind of internal fight, so we have to pray.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that's where the question comes out of for most people, including for myself.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: When we see something or we hear something that's confusing or even perhaps wrong, that we think is wrong, we have to be careful.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: I have to be careful, right?
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: I mean, he's still the Pope, you know, and God can take him out right.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: He's.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: You know God can take him out.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: Sometimes, though, you wonder if, if you know, just like Bishop Sheen used to talk about politicians, he says sometimes you get the politicians you deserve, right, a nation gets the politicians it deserves, I get the politician I deserve.
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: Because you know all our morals are breaking down.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: You know we lost the truth, we, you know we become selfish, and I wonder sometimes and maybe this is too harsh and don't answer it if you don't want to, but I wonder sometimes, in the same thing in the church, we get the church leaders we deserve?
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: Sometimes, you know, we, in the 60s came, you know everybody's contraceptive, everybody's accepting all of this stuff, right.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: And you know marriage is breaking down, aurelio, so many children out of wedlock, you know we have, in these gender ideologies coming in right now.
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: You know the United Methodist Church, as you know, has accepted all these ideologies, and they lost one million members, I think, mostly from Africa, almost right away.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: Now those people are looking for a place to call home, and you know that would be a good time to invite them into the Catholic Church, but I don't know if we can invite him in the Catholic church, because we've become just as confusing.
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: So I wonder if this, if God's not allowing this confusion, because it makes us search, just like you and I are talking today.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: Maybe we should all start talking like this you know what?
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: Here's the question, what is the truth?
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: That's our basic question in life.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: And then to see Jesus Christ in the Mass.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: You know, offering himself up.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: You know, in the Mass, and this is why Ed Orientum is so beautiful, because you start to understand that God is there for us, but he's offering that sacrifice to the Father for us.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: But sometimes, you know, we get everything turned around.
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: So that's my problem with Pope Francis.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: I want to give you a little story on this kind of topic.
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: One day I basically asked the same question to the same question you asked me about if we get the leadership that we deserve, also for the church.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: I ask to prelate, high prelate, okay, how is it possible?
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: The priests are so ignorant, the bishops, you know, they say heretic things.
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: And this prelate, he said something that I think is very interesting, because of course, he can say, oh, no, you are a pessimist.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: But he didn't say that.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: He said you know the priests of today, and so the bishops are also a product of our society, so we cannot expect that they are very different from what we have around us in our society.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: You know, all these people grow up with the same cultural garbage that we have since we were very young.
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: Then there are people that are lucky and they realize that there is something wrong, but the majority are not like this.
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: The majority just go with this flow.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: Going with the flow may be a good thing, but not in this case.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: One should have a kind of conscience or consciousness and say, oh, but there is something wrong here or maybe I'm not getting what is happening around me because, as you said before uh, all our um values and and traditions are really going south.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: I think you say in English so I think that we need to pass to other people this is also the meaning of tradition to pass to other people this kind of lamp, that is, the lamp of the good values, of the.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: Not because we are good, because this is myself.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: I don't consider myself a good Catholic, I don't consider myself good, I have many shortcomings, so it's not that I put myself as an example, it's just the people that point the finger, not to the moon, even if the people is very evil.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: But they are pointing to the moon, not to themselves.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: And this is what we should do.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: We have not to point to ourselves, because of course people may say, oh, but you are like this, you are like that, but it's not me.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: It's not me.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: I'm not proposing myself as a model of anything.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying you know I'm a bad person, but I can tell you that probably this kind of dimension in your life you should consider more seriously, because it may be important not only for your life now but also for your life after this life.
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: So as we wind up here, right, as we wind up, where do we go?
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: So here's what I'm seeing all over, and I'm sure you do too People that are surprising.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: There's a big commentator here.
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: You know a well-known guy named Tucker Carlson in the United States, right, a Russell Brand, and you see people like Candace Owens coming into the Catholic Church and Jordan Peterson's wife, tammy, came into the Church this year, and so, and here's what I see with you, hopefully with me, hopefully with the people that I know, like all these people I just mentioned, and many, many, many more Bishop Strickland, now, you know, I mean, he's trying right.
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: Here's what I see with all these people.
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: And this is what's happening, I think to, as you said, not to everybody, but we're seekers after the truth.
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: We're seekers after the truth, and so I think that's so important.
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: This is in our heart.
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: God gave us this right.
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: This is part of who we are.
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: This is our reason.
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: Right Reason, as John Paul would teach, reason is searching for the truth, what is the truth of things?
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: And then, hopefully, your free will works with that reason in your conscience and then chooses the good.
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: Well, we have to know what that is.
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: We have to know what that is, and so we do have to get back to our roots and we have to be able to understand, you know, this apostolic teaching getting passed down to us.
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: What did jesus really say?
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: What did what?
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: Because he is the answer.
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: I know this because I came back into the church, like I said, when my life was falling apart, my late 30s and and when and my I had a brother that was sexually abused in the church.
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: A really oh.
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: He was dying of aids and he brought me back into the church on his deathbed.
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: He had come back into the church because when you're dying, you are searching for the truth.
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: What am I going?
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: What was this all about?
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: He brings me back into the church.
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: I have a Eucharistic experience at a Novus Ordo Mass, so I know Christ is present in that Mass.
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: And I want to say that I think there is one basic thought that everyone should keep in mind that we are all dying, in the sense that maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, maybe not in 10 years, 20 years, but sooner or later, unfortunately, we will face that moment.
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: So I think that it's never too early to start your search for a truth or for a meaning in life Because, as you say, unfortunately your poor brother, he is probably at the end of his life trying to find the meaning, because of course, he was seeing everything falling apart around him.
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: But we that are still, hopefully, we may have a reason to use our ears to look for some meaning in our life, even if we have shortcomings, even if we do bad things, even if we sin.
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: Okay, we are human, we are frail, we try to repent, but we have to try to find a meaning, and I think this is also what is about traditionalism.
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: These are people that don't want to give up and want to go to these masses, sociological, psychological, spectacular events.
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: No, they want to feel the presence of God.
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: Of course, that is every.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: That is the basic.
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: You mentioned and I thank you, you mentioned my book with Bishop Schneider, the Catholic Mass, and we put in the subtitle of the book.
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: That is how to bring back God at the center of the literature and that is, I think, everything that we can say, how we can bring God at the center of our life.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: These young people?
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: Last question, then I mean I'll just say this one thing that sticks in my mind, or two things from Vatican II not to comment, but it was a universal call to holiness.
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: This is your point.
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: I mean, it doesn't matter, we're all sinners, yes, but don't stay there.
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: Don't stay there because you're never going to find what you're looking for.
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: We're called, at least to universal call to holiness.
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: And now this is a process, right, a process.
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: The other thing is, it was a call to the lady to stand up, and I think this is part of what we're seeing today.
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: Aurelio, I think the lady are called up now to know your faith.
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: Know your faith.
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: You can't count on just anybody in the church.
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: You can't count on any politician.
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: You can't count on your boss at work.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: You know everything's starting to you can't?
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: The universities are failing, we know all this.
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: So it's time for all of us to step up and learn our faith.
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: So my last question is this then, if you're a young person 20s, 25, 30, and you're saying, yes, yes, I want that, I want to find the truth, I want to become a better person, I want to step up, what kind of parish are you going to look for?
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: What kind of parish are you going to look for?
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: What kind of priest are you going to look for?
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: Because I think you get.
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: You have to start somewhere, because these people don't have what we have.
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: Uh, really, oh, they don't have the tradition.
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: They weren't cradle catholics, you know what I mean.
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: And so they go.
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: You can't.
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: You got to make sure they don't get sent to some crazy parish.
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: You know that's going to lead them down the wrong path, right?
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the answer is that of course, as we say, there are a lot of priests that are not really doing a good service to their vocation, but still there are good priests.
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: So if I was someone that had to give advice to these young people, I say look for a good priest and, most of all, read good books, because there are good books.
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: For example, for me was very important a book that I edited recently for Sofia Press by an Italian apologist called Vittorio Messori, and the book is the Jesus hypothesis.
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: And now I I don't remember exactly how they put now the title, but the original title was a hypothesis about Jesus, something like this and this book, for me, was really a turning point.
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: Okay, so can you.
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: I'll look that up.
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: From Sophia Press.
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: I want to put that in the show notes.
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: This would be something good for someone to read, right?
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: Yes, press, I want to put that in the show notes.
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: This would be something good for someone to read, right?
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: They come in the Catholic Mass.
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: That you did, I think is excellent, with Bishop Schneider, so they'll have an understanding of the Mass.
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: And then, when they're ready to dig a little deeper and they have questions about Vatican II, traditionalism versus progressive stance then the right hand of the Lord is exalted.
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: So, and you know, it's probably not a bad idea to just, you know, to start with the catechism too.
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: You know people think, aurelio, that the catechism of John Paul II and I know not everybody thinks that's the greatest, but I love it.
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: And when I first started to read it, you know it starts section one, chapter one, a paragraph one, with the heart, the human heart.
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: It, you know it starts section one, chapter one, a paragraph one, with the heart, the human heart.
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: You know it doesn't start with rules and regulations, it says just what we're talking about.
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: What do you seek, right?
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: What do you?
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: yes, and it's so beautiful.
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: I think it's just so beautiful, so I'll get those in.
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: I'll get those links in the show notes.
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: Uh, anything else?
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: Any parting words, my friend, I can only hope that the people that will read my book will understand a little more about the traditionalist world that is very complex and sometimes also divided, and I hope that they also will learn to respect these people, because these people, like me and you, are only trying to find a way to survive in this kind of environment, and we know how difficult this is yes, yes.
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: And the reality, I think the reality that you can encounter God in the Mass, in the liturgy.
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: You know, Scripture, when you're reading Scripture, when you go to a good Mass, you know, I think you just open your heart as wide as you can and you know, ask, seek and knock Aurelio right and expect in the silence of your heart to hear some movement over time.
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: Right, god's not a vending machine.
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: We know he's going to work in his own time, but you will understand it.
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: Hey, god bless you, aurelio, you're such a joy to be with.
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: Thank you for taking the time.
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: We really appreciate it no problem.
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: Thank you, sir.