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Check In: Curtis Sittenfeld · Heavyweight

0:15
Speaker 1: Pushkin.
0:18
Speaker 2: Hi are you ell?
0:20
Speaker 1: I'm good. How are you good? Thank you for doing
0:24
Speaker 1: the chip or exchange you're now hearing is between me
0:26
Speaker 1: and Curtis Sittenfeld, the best selling novelist and author of
0:29
Speaker 1: books like Prep American Wife and You Think It.
0:33
Speaker 2: I'll say it, nice to see you.
0:35
Speaker 1: Nice to see you. Although Curtis and I live in
0:37
Speaker 1: the same city, I'm seeing her over a zoom call.
0:41
Speaker 1: We sometimes ask guests on the show to talk to
0:43
Speaker 1: us from a small closet where the sound quality is best,
0:46
Speaker 1: but that isn't the case today. Curtis Sittenfeld is seated
0:50
Speaker 1: at her desk, her writer's desk. When I heard that
0:54
Speaker 1: we were going to put Curtis Sittenfeld in a closet,
0:56
Speaker 1: I was like, nobody puts. That would be a shame
1:00
Speaker 1: to all podcasting everywhere. Curtis and I are going to
1:05
Speaker 1: talk about her latest novel, Rodham. Right after the break.
1:16
Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Curtis Sittenfeld about her novel Rodham, which
1:20
Speaker 1: deals with many of the themes that we explore on Heavyweight,
1:23
Speaker 1: things like returning to the past to change it and
1:25
Speaker 1: the question of what our lives might have been like
1:27
Speaker 1: if we'd made one decision Differently, Rodham is a novel
1:31
Speaker 1: about what Hillary Clinton's life and political career might have
1:34
Speaker 1: looked like if she had never married Bill Clinton.
1:40
Speaker 2: So, in real life, he proposed twice and she said no,
1:45
Speaker 2: and then she said yes the third time. And I
1:48
Speaker 2: imagine what would have happened if she had said no
1:52
Speaker 2: the third time as well.
1:54
Speaker 1: And that's when the timeline bifurcates. It becomes an alternate history.
1:58
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly after.
2:01
Speaker 1: Twenty sixteen, it felt like people did not want to
2:05
Speaker 1: hear anything more about Hillary Clinton. You had the opposite reaction.
2:12
Speaker 2: I wanted to hear four hundred pages more about her. Yeah. No, Well,
2:16
Speaker 2: I think that, like it's very strange when she makes
2:23
Speaker 2: a public statement or does like a prominent interview, there
2:26
Speaker 2: almost always will be this backlash where people will kind
2:30
Speaker 2: of say, like go away, and which I don't. It's
2:35
Speaker 2: hard for me to think of any parallel that exists
2:40
Speaker 2: for a man in the public eye or a man
2:43
Speaker 2: who's held public office. You know, like we're almost saying
2:47
Speaker 2: like does this woman deserve to exist, does she deserve attention?
2:51
Speaker 2: Does she deserve a public voice? And it's kind of
2:54
Speaker 2: like that is ludicrous if that's like the starting question.
2:59
Speaker 2: I mean, like you don't have to read a book
3:02
Speaker 2: she writes or listen to a speech she gives, but
3:05
Speaker 2: like she's entitled to write them and she's entitled to speak.
3:11
Speaker 2: I don't have strong feelings about any of this.
3:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I was struck in reading the novel
3:17
Speaker 1: by the fact that it is written in the first person.
3:20
Speaker 1: You know, you are the eye of the novel. You
3:22
Speaker 1: are Hillary, And even hearing you talk about her right now,
3:27
Speaker 1: it feels like there is this identification that you feel
3:32
Speaker 1: with her, and it's almost as though you have a
3:34
Speaker 1: certain kind of like, you know, love for her.
3:38
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I definitely do. I mean I've never met her,
3:43
Speaker 2: and I think it's relatively unlikely that I will, but
3:48
Speaker 2: I certainly respect and admire her, and I feel like
3:53
Speaker 2: the person that I think she is based on everything
3:57
Speaker 2: I've read, is really different from the public image of
4:02
Speaker 2: her in a way that does kind of hurt my heart.
4:06
Speaker 1: Hmmm, yeah, yeah, it just I guess it underlines just
4:09
Speaker 1: how weird it is to have a public life in
4:12
Speaker 1: that way.
4:13
Speaker 2: Which I actually think that's one of the things that
4:15
Speaker 2: I'm really interested in, where I'm very interested in the
4:19
Speaker 2: sort of intimate moments of these really famous people. Like
4:23
Speaker 2: it's almost like being interested in what we'll never see,
4:28
Speaker 2: what the public never sees.
4:30
Speaker 1: Yes, Yes, And I mean, on that note, I would
4:35
Speaker 1: like to ask you to read a passage from your
4:37
Speaker 1: novel that definitely qualifies as one of those intimate private moments. Okay,
4:42
Speaker 1: And I'll just say that part of the pleasure of
4:44
Speaker 1: this passage is in imagining the real Bill and the
4:48
Speaker 1: real Hillary speaking the dialogue that you've written for them,
4:51
Speaker 1: because we have such a strong mental image of who
4:54
Speaker 1: they are. So okay, So again, in the alternate universe
4:58
Speaker 1: of the book, Hillary and Bill never get married. Bill
5:02
Speaker 1: leaves politics to become this rich tech dot com mogul
5:08
Speaker 1: in San Francisco, and Hillary goes on to have this
5:11
Speaker 1: impressive political career. Yes, And the passage I'm going to
5:14
Speaker 1: ask you to read takes place in two thousand and five,
5:18
Speaker 1: as Hillary is gearing up to run for president in
5:20
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, and she runs into Bill by
5:23
Speaker 1: chance at an event and they reconnect, and a couple
5:26
Speaker 1: of weeks later, Bill invites her over for dinner at
5:28
Speaker 1: his penthouse. They're both single and Hillary hasn't had sex
5:32
Speaker 1: in a long time, and she's excited because she thinks
5:35
Speaker 1: Bill has invited her over to sleep with him. Yeah,
5:39
Speaker 1: but things don't end up going the way that she expects.
5:43
Speaker 1: So you're going to read this passage, and just a
5:46
Speaker 1: small heads up for those of you listening with kids,
5:49
Speaker 1: there are some bad words, some famously bad words, that
5:52
Speaker 1: we are not going to bleep, So without further ado,
5:57
Speaker 1: we'll pick it up just when Hillary arrives.
6:05
Speaker 2: Bill's apartment was a penthouse in nob Hill. When I
6:08
Speaker 2: stepped off the dedicated elevator, which itself was large enough
6:12
Speaker 2: to include a bench and fancy enough to include a chandelier,
6:16
Speaker 2: I was in a vast open space that led on
6:18
Speaker 2: the left to a kitchen and on the right to
6:21
Speaker 2: a living room. Straight in front of me were floor
6:24
Speaker 2: to ceiling windows overlooking the Financial District, including the Trans
6:28
Speaker 2: America Building, and beyond it the San Francisco Bay, the
6:32
Speaker 2: Bay Bridge, and Oakland. You made it. Bill approached from
6:37
Speaker 2: the kitchen wearing a royal blue apron over a dress
6:40
Speaker 2: shirt and jeans. He really was incredibly handsome, tall and
6:44
Speaker 2: slim and white haired, with that familiar smile. I set
6:48
Speaker 2: my purse next to a red porcelain lamp, and he
6:51
Speaker 2: leaned in to hug me and kissed the top of
6:53
Speaker 2: my head. Upbeat classical music played in the background, no
6:58
Speaker 2: doubt on a state of the art sound system, and
7:00
Speaker 2: the sweet smell of something baking filled the air. I said,
7:04
Speaker 2: quite a view you've got, he grinned. Not bad for
7:08
Speaker 2: a boy from Hope ark Saha, I grinned back at him.
7:11
Speaker 2: Does that country boyshtick still work for you? Better than ever?
7:15
Speaker 2: But not with everyone? Apparently you look great by the way,
7:19
Speaker 2: you look great too, I said, California must agree with you.
7:23
Speaker 2: He opened a bottle of his own wine, a red,
7:26
Speaker 2: saying it's one of my favorites, very velvety but structured.
7:30
Speaker 2: When we made eye contact, he added to saying, that
7:33
Speaker 2: make me sound sophisticated or like an asshole? Why choose?
7:37
Speaker 2: I said, and he laughed, I'm teasing. I said, you
7:40
Speaker 2: don't sound like an asshole, and I'd love a glass
7:42
Speaker 2: of something velvety and structured. After he'd poured, we clinked
7:46
Speaker 2: our glasses together to the past and the present, he said,
7:50
Speaker 2: and I said, here here. I sat on a barstool
7:54
Speaker 2: at the Granite Island while he stood facing me, with
7:57
Speaker 2: the bay behind him, dicing an onion on a cutting board.
8:01
Speaker 2: Using the knife, he swept the diced onion into the
8:04
Speaker 2: pan and it sizzled a little. When did you learn
8:07
Speaker 2: to cook, I asked, After my second divorce, I decided
8:11
Speaker 2: not to be one of those bachelors with nothing but
8:13
Speaker 2: a six pack and a jar of mustard in the fridge.
8:15
Speaker 2: Turns out cooking is kind of fun. I'll bet I
8:18
Speaker 2: haven't touched a stove in a decade. I said, would
8:21
Speaker 2: you like for tonight to be the night? He said yes,
8:24
Speaker 2: I thought, but not with the stove. I said, you
8:27
Speaker 2: look like you've got things under control. What are you
8:30
Speaker 2: making anyway? You ever had a ratitudey tart full disclosure.
8:35
Speaker 2: The crust that's in the oven as we speak was
8:37
Speaker 2: made earlier today by my housekeeper, Elena. I still want
8:40
Speaker 2: you to be impressed by my slicing and dicing, though
8:43
Speaker 2: I'm very impressed, I said. The smell of the baking
8:47
Speaker 2: crust competed pleasantly with the savory scent of the simmering vegetables.
8:52
Speaker 2: I was hungry, but I didn't want to be full
8:55
Speaker 2: if we had sex. I took another sip of wine
8:58
Speaker 2: and said, do you remember when you told me about
9:01
Speaker 2: going home with Kirby Haiti for Thanksgiving your first year
9:04
Speaker 2: at Yale. You were very impressed that his parents' penthouse
9:07
Speaker 2: had its own elevator. And look at you now. It's funny,
9:11
Speaker 2: he said, because I don't think I ever ride up
9:13
Speaker 2: here without recalling that. He looked at me intently. What
9:18
Speaker 2: you and I had, he said, I never found that
9:21
Speaker 2: with anyone else. I mourned it for so many years.
9:25
Speaker 2: I did too, I said, And it seems like it
9:27
Speaker 2: should be weird as hell to be standing across from
9:29
Speaker 2: you right now, he said, but it feels totally natural.
9:33
Speaker 2: I agree, I said. The intensity of his expression made
9:38
Speaker 2: it difficult to maintain eye contact, and with feigned casualness,
9:42
Speaker 2: I said, tell me about a day in the life
9:44
Speaker 2: of Bill Clinton. I've got a yoga instructor who comes
9:48
Speaker 2: here three mornings a week at seven. Is this too
9:50
Speaker 2: much detail? I shook my head. So I arrived in
9:53
Speaker 2: the office at nine thirty or ten. I've got a driver.
9:57
Speaker 2: His smile was sheepish. I'll confess I feel self conscious
10:00
Speaker 2: around you with regard to some of this, But a
10:03
Speaker 2: lot of our dreams came true, didn't they we've both
10:05
Speaker 2: risen to the highest level of our fields or your
10:08
Speaker 2: damn near it. My God, if you do become president, Hillary,
10:13
Speaker 2: it'll be the greatest fucking thing. You'll be so good
10:15
Speaker 2: at it. And just think of making history like that.
10:18
Speaker 2: I can't pretend I won't be envious. Honestly, I try
10:22
Speaker 2: not to think too much in those terms. I said,
10:24
Speaker 2: it makes me feel as if everything that comes out
10:26
Speaker 2: of my mouth should be written in calligraphy with a
10:29
Speaker 2: quill pen, which is immobilizing. I'm not, you know, George Washington,
10:34
Speaker 2: not even Georgia Washington. Bell grind is that George's sister,
10:39
Speaker 2: I asked, or him when he lets his wig down,
10:42
Speaker 2: he replied, we were both smiling. I watched as Bill
10:47
Speaker 2: shook some oregano into his palm and dropped it into
10:50
Speaker 2: the mixture. Hey, I hear that Tara and Pete Forgod,
10:53
Speaker 2: held a fundraiser for you at their house last night.
10:56
Speaker 2: News travels fast. I said, the Foregods are terrific. He said.
11:00
Speaker 2: I was invited, but I had a conflict, and I thought, Hell,
11:03
Speaker 2: I get you all to myself for dinner tonight. There
11:07
Speaker 2: is a happiness I felt in this moment, A pure, warm,
11:11
Speaker 2: unambivalent animal happiness. I just really really enjoyed being in
11:18
Speaker 2: Bill Clinton's company and then sitting there on his barstool
11:23
Speaker 2: listening to his classical music. I thought, what if I
11:26
Speaker 2: didn't run for president, What if I didn't even run
11:29
Speaker 2: for Senate again after this term. Let some other woman
11:33
Speaker 2: make history while having her clothes and voice and intellect
11:37
Speaker 2: and voting record picked apart. Let me have great sex
11:42
Speaker 2: and stimulating conversations. Let me travel to foreign countries, not
11:46
Speaker 2: to meet with dignitaries and eat chicken in ballrooms, but
11:50
Speaker 2: to swim in fancy pools at expensive hotels and read
11:55
Speaker 2: novels while lying on enormous mattresses. Let me be a
11:59
Speaker 2: well paid lawyer or consultant or lobbyist. Let me be
12:03
Speaker 2: Bill Clinton's girlfriend again. Let me finally be Bill Clinton's wife.
12:09
Speaker 2: Allowed I said, that's true. You do get me all
12:12
Speaker 2: to yourself tonight. This is when he said, I have
12:17
Speaker 2: a story that I think you'll appreciate. He reached for
12:19
Speaker 2: the wine bottle and refilled my glass. You may have
12:23
Speaker 2: heard that I've started a foundation. We're still getting our
12:26
Speaker 2: sea legs, but we're focusing on all the big issues,
12:29
Speaker 2: climate change, poverty biomedical research. Eighteen months ago, I hired
12:34
Speaker 2: a woman named Kira Duncan to run the foundation. She
12:37
Speaker 2: has a stellar record, went to Stanford for undergrad and
12:40
Speaker 2: business school. After b school, she worked for a gay
12:43
Speaker 2: rights advocacy group. So I assume she's a lesbian, even
12:46
Speaker 2: though she's gorgeous, long red hair, milky white skin, very slender. Really,
12:52
Speaker 2: I thought, long red hair, milky white skin, very slender. Now, Riley,
13:00
Speaker 2: I said, I've heard that it's possible for a woman
13:02
Speaker 2: to be gorgeous and gay at the same time. He laughed.
13:06
Speaker 2: Just wait now. I'm not usually in the fount Foundation office,
13:10
Speaker 2: but Kira and I talk five six times a week.
13:13
Speaker 2: She's very on the ball, always prepared, a tireless worker
13:16
Speaker 2: in a lot of ways. She reminds me of you,
13:18
Speaker 2: and she's pretty buttoned up about her personal life, but
13:21
Speaker 2: bits and pieces emerge. She does indeed have a female partner,
13:25
Speaker 2: a gown named Louise we. Kira and I go to
13:28
Speaker 2: Haiti together to meet with Dan Jacobs, who runs Global
13:31
Speaker 2: Health Mission. Do you know Dan, Yes, I said, Ghim
13:35
Speaker 2: does wonderful work. When Kira and I are in Haiti,
13:38
Speaker 2: he went on, she tells me, she and Louise want
13:40
Speaker 2: to have a baby. They're going back and forth about
13:43
Speaker 2: who should carry it and who the donor will be.
13:45
Speaker 2: If that's not the quintessential modern problem, huh, well, there
13:50
Speaker 2: have always been divisions of childcare, I said. Although I
13:54
Speaker 2: was speaking in what I hoped was a normal tone,
13:56
Speaker 2: my wariness was increasing. I wanted to go back just
14:00
Speaker 2: a minute or two to when he'd said, I get
14:03
Speaker 2: you all to myself. Now I've met Louise by this point,
14:07
Speaker 2: he continued, and she's smart, a tough customer, very butch.
14:11
Speaker 2: A few weeks pass and Kira and Louise invite me
14:14
Speaker 2: over for brunch and say they have something to ask me.
14:17
Speaker 2: They've decided Kia will carry the baby and they want
14:20
Speaker 2: me to be the sperm donor. Remind me how old
14:24
Speaker 2: your kids are now, I said, Alexis is twenty six
14:27
Speaker 2: and Ricky is twenty nine. That was a consideration. Absolutely,
14:31
Speaker 2: How would this look to them? Ricky is very relaxed,
14:35
Speaker 2: very accepting, but Alexis can be judgmental. I say to
14:38
Speaker 2: Kia and Louise, let me take a week to think
14:40
Speaker 2: about it. Why did I so dislike the turn our
14:45
Speaker 2: conversation had taken. Was it jealousy, the reminder of my age,
14:50
Speaker 2: or the reminder of Bill's narcissism, as if his sperm,
14:55
Speaker 2: his fifty nine year old sperm, was uniquely worthy. The
14:59
Speaker 2: day after brunch, Kira calls me up sobbing, he continued,
15:03
Speaker 2: She's crying so hard. I can scarcely understand what she's saying,
15:07
Speaker 2: but I make out that Louise is accused her of
15:09
Speaker 2: wanting me to be the donor as a way of
15:11
Speaker 2: creating intimacy with me. Kia says, I felt so angry
15:15
Speaker 2: when Louise said this. I went for a run, just
15:18
Speaker 2: feeling furious, and that's when I realized she's right. I'm
15:22
Speaker 2: in love with you. Kia offers to resign effective immediately,
15:25
Speaker 2: which I don't allow. Wow, I said, where do things
15:29
Speaker 2: stand now? At least the mystery of why I disliked
15:33
Speaker 2: hearing all this had been solved. We're taking things slow,
15:38
Speaker 2: just enjoying being together, not rushing into any decisions. Wait
15:43
Speaker 2: a second, I said, you're in a relationship with Kira.
15:48
Speaker 2: She's not big on labels, Bill said, and here she
15:51
Speaker 2: is the sexually fluid individual. She hasn't dated a man
15:55
Speaker 2: since she was a teenager. But the energy between us,
15:58
Speaker 2: the connection, it's truly incredible. Kia's extraordinary in the way
16:03
Speaker 2: she sees the world, her creativity and compassion. Hopefully she'll
16:07
Speaker 2: pop in later tonight and I can introduce the two
16:10
Speaker 2: of you. She'll pop in tonight, I asked. He looked
16:15
Speaker 2: at his watch. She has a dinner meeting, so probably
16:18
Speaker 2: not before nine, and she is or isn't pregnant. For now,
16:23
Speaker 2: We've hit pause on that, he said. We've got a
16:26
Speaker 2: trip together to Namibia in November, and we'll discuss it
16:29
Speaker 2: after we get back. One of the most important lessons
16:33
Speaker 2: I've learned in life is this, do not preemptively take
16:38
Speaker 2: no for an answer. Do not decide your request has
16:42
Speaker 2: been rejected before it officially has. As with so many
16:47
Speaker 2: other lessons that involve assertion, this one applies far more
16:51
Speaker 2: to women than men. Thus I took a sip of
16:54
Speaker 2: wine and said, surely you and Kira aren't monogamous. He squinted.
17:01
Speaker 2: Your tart smells delicious, I said, But just to give
17:05
Speaker 2: ourselves time, let's go to bed now and eat afterwards.
17:10
Speaker 2: He blinked, then smiled a little questioningly. For old time's sake,
17:15
Speaker 2: I said, for fun with no strings attached. I'm certainly flattered,
17:20
Speaker 2: he said, And surprised, are you? I asked? Hillary? You
17:26
Speaker 2: know you've always always held a special place in my heart,
17:29
Speaker 2: he said, Having you in my home now it's a
17:32
Speaker 2: true joy. I've thought about you so many times over
17:35
Speaker 2: the years. Then he said, for anything physical to happen
17:40
Speaker 2: between us, that's just not where I am. So now
17:44
Speaker 2: my request had been officially rejected. There were other things
17:49
Speaker 2: I thought in this moment and later, but the main
17:53
Speaker 2: one was what a giant, fucking waste of time and
17:57
Speaker 2: energy it had been to worry over the acquisition of
18:01
Speaker 2: condoms and lubricant. This was the man for whom, not
18:06
Speaker 2: five minutes earlier, I'd pondered, chuck my presidential aspirations, my
18:11
Speaker 2: entire career, setting aside, what was wrong with him? What
18:16
Speaker 2: was wrong with me? I heard myself ask? What is
18:21
Speaker 2: it about that story of you and Kira that made
18:24
Speaker 2: you think I'd particularly appreciate it? His tone was wary
18:29
Speaker 2: but cheerful. He couldn't discern if we were moving away
18:32
Speaker 2: from or deeper into a fraud topic, as he said,
18:37
Speaker 2: the feminist angle, for one thing, sisters are doing it
18:40
Speaker 2: for themselves, and her directness, her lack of gamesmanship. Do
18:44
Speaker 2: I mean gameswomanship? He smiled. I remember how frustrated you
18:48
Speaker 2: felt by the narrow expectations for women when we were
18:51
Speaker 2: in law school. And what did you want from tonight?
18:55
Speaker 2: I asked? Why am I here? He bit his lower lip,
19:00
Speaker 2: and I could see that my opinion mattered to him,
19:03
Speaker 2: that he sincerely wanted my approval, or at least feared
19:07
Speaker 2: my opprobrium. But hadn't this been Bill's genius as a politician,
19:12
Speaker 2: That he was this way with everyone and it was
19:15
Speaker 2: always sincere, he said, When two old friends have the
19:20
Speaker 2: chance to catch up, that's something I value more and
19:23
Speaker 2: more as the years passed, and I thought we were
19:25
Speaker 2: having a nice time old friends. It was hard to
19:30
Speaker 2: know which word was more insulting. Then he added, I
19:35
Speaker 2: also wanted to float the idea of you joining my
19:37
Speaker 2: foundation's board. There can be a shortage of female leadership,
19:41
Speaker 2: the female perspective in these parts. But god knows, I
19:45
Speaker 2: didn't mean to be confusing, I said, just out of curiosity,
19:50
Speaker 2: how old is the oldest woman you've slept with? I
19:53
Speaker 2: don't see what that has to do with anything. Forty five,
19:57
Speaker 2: I said, forty Evangeline was forty four when we separated
20:02
Speaker 2: last year. He bowed his head. If I gave you
20:05
Speaker 2: the impression this dinner was romantic, I'm sorry in the
20:09
Speaker 2: last few days, did it cross your mind we'd have
20:11
Speaker 2: sex tonight? Given the inherently loaded nature of the question,
20:16
Speaker 2: I asked, as neutrally as possible. I just I wasn't
20:20
Speaker 2: thinking in those terms. He said, what with being in
20:23
Speaker 2: a brand new relationship. The oven timer beeped then, and
20:28
Speaker 2: we didn't speak as he slid on an oven, mit
20:31
Speaker 2: opened the glass door and removed the crust. He set
20:35
Speaker 2: the crust on a stove burner. We still didn't speak
20:38
Speaker 2: as he began spooning the ratitude into the crust, and finally,
20:43
Speaker 2: when he was finished, he said, that doesn't look half bad,
20:46
Speaker 2: does it. But I didn't want to eat his food.
20:50
Speaker 2: I didn't want to join his board, I didn't want
20:53
Speaker 2: to be in his penthouse, and I didn't want to
20:55
Speaker 2: be in his presence. It wouldn't I thought, be difficult
20:59
Speaker 2: to remain on good terms with him. Salvaging this moment
21:04
Speaker 2: would require little effort. Perhaps in the future he'd even
21:08
Speaker 2: feel guilt. He wouldn't want a name and be more
21:12
Speaker 2: generous and donating to my campaign, or more helpful in
21:15
Speaker 2: soliciting others. But backpedaling restoring the goodwill between us would
21:22
Speaker 2: be difficult for me putting up with Bill Clinton's bullshit.
21:28
Speaker 2: Hadn't I earned the right never to do it again?
21:32
Speaker 2: Sometimes speaking your mind is expensive, which doesn't mean it's
21:36
Speaker 2: not worth it. There's nothing you did wrong tonight that's
21:40
Speaker 2: provable in a court of law, I said, which is
21:43
Speaker 2: your specialty, Bill, But I do think you led me on.
21:47
Speaker 2: It's funny because all those years ago when you proposed
21:50
Speaker 2: I remember thinking, on the one hand, he'll never be faithful,
21:54
Speaker 2: but on the other hand, he'll never not be attracted
21:57
Speaker 2: to me. He just loves women and sex. But now
22:01
Speaker 2: I think I was wrong. If we'd gotten married, you
22:04
Speaker 2: eventually would have traded me in for a new model.
22:07
Speaker 2: His face flushed as he said, what our marriage would
22:11
Speaker 2: have looked like is immaterial, and you're the one who
22:14
Speaker 2: made it immaterial. I was prepared to do my best
22:18
Speaker 2: as your husband was. My best is my best perfect?
22:22
Speaker 1: No?
22:23
Speaker 2: Was it enough for you? Also?
22:24
Speaker 1: No?
22:25
Speaker 2: Therefore, the subject of whom I've chosen to be involved
22:28
Speaker 2: with since is none of your business, except I said,
22:32
Speaker 2: for your decision to invite me over for an intimate dinner.
22:36
Speaker 2: I swept my arm through the air, taking in the tart,
22:39
Speaker 2: the music, the view. Is it that you wanted to
22:42
Speaker 2: leave your options open? But now that I'm here, I
22:44
Speaker 2: look too wrinkly to you? Is my skin not milky
22:48
Speaker 2: white enough? He bit his lip. He actually had two
22:52
Speaker 2: bitten lip modes, one pensive and one angry, and this
22:56
Speaker 2: was the angry version, and said, you've never understood that
23:00
Speaker 2: you can't litigate the human heart. Spare me. I slid
23:05
Speaker 2: forward on the barstool. I know we didn't get through
23:08
Speaker 2: a tip day for you, but I hope that on
23:10
Speaker 2: a regular basis seeing a therapist as part of your schedule, because,
23:14
Speaker 2: without question, you're a narcissist. And I mean that in
23:18
Speaker 2: the clinical sense. What diagnosis would you give to a
23:21
Speaker 2: woman who tries unsuccessfully to seduce a narcissist? If he
23:26
Speaker 2: wasn't shouting by this point, he was close fuck you,
23:31
Speaker 2: I said, I believe I made it clear I'd rather not.
23:34
Speaker 2: He said, you know, I said, if you're trying to
23:37
Speaker 2: humiliate me, I am ashamed of myself, but not for
23:41
Speaker 2: thinking you'd find me attractive. I'm ashamed because you've given
23:45
Speaker 2: me so much evidence for so many years about what
23:49
Speaker 2: a piece of shit you are, and once again I
23:53
Speaker 2: ignored it. I stood goodbye, Bill. I didn't wait for
23:58
Speaker 2: him to respond before I turned and strode toward the elevator.
24:03
Speaker 2: You think that's how it works, he yelled. I welcome
24:06
Speaker 2: you into my home, and when things don't go exact
24:09
Speaker 2: exactly how you imagined, you get to impugne my character.
24:13
Speaker 2: I glanced over my shoulder. I don't impune your character,
24:17
Speaker 2: I said, you do that all by yourself. If we'd
24:21
Speaker 2: been on the ground floor, my dramatic exit could have
24:25
Speaker 2: been more efficient as it was. After reaching the elevator,
24:29
Speaker 2: grabbing my purse off the table, and pressing the call button,
24:33
Speaker 2: I didn't need to wait longer than a few seconds,
24:36
Speaker 2: but any delay as I stood there with my back
24:39
Speaker 2: to him and those enormous windows imbued the situation with
24:44
Speaker 2: a certain absurdity Behind me, I heard him say, you've
24:49
Speaker 2: always gotten off on making me feel bad about myself,
24:53
Speaker 2: holding me to your impossible standards, then scolding me when
24:57
Speaker 2: I don't meet them. You know what you are, You're
25:00
Speaker 2: a self righteous cunt. I looked over my shoulder and said,
25:06
Speaker 2: and you're a spoiled, selfish child. This is when he
25:11
Speaker 2: threw the serving spoon. Was he throwing it at me?
25:15
Speaker 2: I'd never known him to be violent, though I'd also
25:18
Speaker 2: never seen him this enraged. He hit the red porcelain
25:22
Speaker 2: lamp on the table, knocking it to the floor and
25:25
Speaker 2: shattering it. I was shocked, and when I looked at him,
25:29
Speaker 2: it seemed he was too. The elevator doors opened and
25:34
Speaker 2: I stepped inside, then turned around. I held the doors
25:38
Speaker 2: open as I spoke. Did you say your housekeeper's name
25:42
Speaker 2: is Elena. You're so good at getting other people to
25:46
Speaker 2: clean up your messes.
25:58
Speaker 1: That was Curtis Sinenfeld, reading from her novel Rodham. After
26:02
Speaker 1: the break, I continue to talk with Curtis about this
26:04
Speaker 1: passage and about the real Bill Clinton and the reality
26:08
Speaker 1: of his legacy. What I love about this passage is
26:21
Speaker 1: you see played out, over the course of about twenty pages,
26:25
Speaker 1: the entirety of a romantic relationship. Like there's the hopefulness
26:30
Speaker 1: at the beginning, and the flirtation and the projection about
26:33
Speaker 1: the future, and then it gives way to the dashed
26:38
Speaker 1: hopes and the hurt, and then this kind of divorce.
26:41
Speaker 2: That's funny. That's an interesting observation which I agree with
26:45
Speaker 2: and had not thought of before.
26:47
Speaker 1: My undergraduate degree in literature is really paid off. This
26:54
Speaker 1: is something that struck me in maybe this is something
26:56
Speaker 1: that you've thought about more and you could bring clarity
26:58
Speaker 1: to this whole thing. But in the book you avoid
27:00
Speaker 1: the Monica Lewinsky scandal because in your version of history
27:04
Speaker 1: Booklinton never becomes president, so he never has this intern
27:08
Speaker 1: but there is and in for the Wenita Broaderick story
27:11
Speaker 1: where Hillary has a confrontation with a woman who accuses
27:15
Speaker 1: Bill of having raped her. So in the passage that
27:19
Speaker 1: you just read it Bill's penthouse, when you have Hillary
27:24
Speaker 1: accused Bill of doing nothing wrong that could be proven
27:27
Speaker 1: in a court of law, and in the next breath
27:30
Speaker 1: she goes on to say that he's a man who
27:33
Speaker 1: loves women and sex. How is the reader meant to
27:37
Speaker 1: hear that?
27:39
Speaker 2: Well, I think there's a question about Bill Clinton and
27:46
Speaker 2: like sort of who he is or who he mostly
27:49
Speaker 2: is that exists for the American public, Like is he
27:54
Speaker 2: basically a good guy or basically a bad guy? And
27:58
Speaker 2: I feel like in some ways that question has been
28:02
Speaker 2: discussed you know, since the early nineties, so for almost
28:06
Speaker 2: thirty years, and I think the way people answer that
28:10
Speaker 2: has changed during that time. In the book, one of
28:16
Speaker 2: the reasons Hillary doesn't stay with him is that she
28:22
Speaker 2: kind of gets this glimpse of his darker interactions with
28:27
Speaker 2: women and doesn't really want to be responsible for them.
28:33
Speaker 2: And I think in real life, I mean, Hillary in
28:36
Speaker 2: some ways could not draw that much attention to Trump's
28:43
Speaker 2: offenses against women in the twenty sixteen campaign because Trump
28:48
Speaker 2: would always invoke Bill's history, so it sort of seemed
28:51
Speaker 2: like Hillary was held in some ways more accountable for
28:55
Speaker 2: Bill's behavior than Bill was. But I think one of
29:01
Speaker 2: the things that draws me to reading and writing fiction,
29:05
Speaker 2: it's that it captures the contradictory nature of people, and
29:14
Speaker 2: like so much of the public discourse, I think, you know,
29:18
Speaker 2: like we either like want to worship someone. You can
29:20
Speaker 2: sort of see this on Twitter, like it's like this
29:23
Speaker 2: is the week that we're all going to like worship
29:25
Speaker 2: Jeff Goldbloom or like designed he's the best person ever,
29:28
Speaker 2: and then like this is when we're going to turn
29:30
Speaker 2: against this person, and that it's either or instead of that,
29:35
Speaker 2: like people are contradictory and we even recognize that. Like,
29:40
Speaker 2: I think probably almost all of us have someone in
29:43
Speaker 2: our life where we feel like, if that person weren't
29:47
Speaker 2: my close friend, I really wouldn't like them, or I
29:52
Speaker 2: really wouldn't be comfortable with their behavior. And maybe I
29:54
Speaker 2: am uncomfortable with their behavior and I like them, and
29:58
Speaker 2: a part of me feels like, maybe that's what life
30:01
Speaker 2: is like for Hillary.
30:04
Speaker 1: Yeah.
30:05
Speaker 2: I think that Heavyweight does a really big, beautiful job.
30:10
Speaker 2: It's rare in nonfiction that lets people be both good
30:16
Speaker 2: and bad or like illustrates the contradictory nature of humans.
30:23
Speaker 2: Like I feel like so many of the episodes flip
30:26
Speaker 2: something around where the person that we didn't like it first,
30:31
Speaker 2: we get some piece of information that forces us to
30:33
Speaker 2: like them more, or maybe vice versa.
30:35
Speaker 1: Like yeah, wow, thank you. Yeah, I'm so glad to
30:40
Speaker 1: hear you say that, because yeah, like I think it's
30:42
Speaker 1: probably the highest aspiration of the show or those moves,
30:46
Speaker 1: and yeah, I don't know if I've ever heard, actually
30:49
Speaker 1: anyone say that. That's very gratifying to here. Do do
30:56
Speaker 1: know if Hillary has read the book?
31:00
Speaker 2: I don't think she has. I mean, I don't know,
31:01
Speaker 2: Like if I mean, I promise not to do this.
31:05
Speaker 2: But if like two years from now, I said, like,
31:08
Speaker 2: I've written a book based on your life, like, do
31:12
Speaker 2: you think you'd be intrigued or horrified?
31:16
Speaker 1: I would be I think, uh yeah, I think Curtis
31:23
Speaker 1: has lost her mind. I mean I think I would
31:30
Speaker 1: read it. I just want to say, thank you, Curtis.
31:43
Speaker 2: You're welcome, Jonathan, thank you.
31:47
Speaker 1: Curtis Enfeld's novel Rodham is available in bookstores everywhere. And
31:52
Speaker 1: we'll be back next week with our final check in
31:54
Speaker 1: of the year. And it's a fun one, Kaylee, Stevie
31:57
Speaker 1: and I will be talking about the holidays and baldness.
32:00
Speaker 1: We'll see you then