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Exoplanet Collisions, Cosmic Snowball Fights & Australia’s Astronomical Future | Space Nuts:... · Space News Today

• 0:00
  Hi there. Thank you again for joining
• 0:02
  us. This is Space Nuts, where we talk
• 0:04
  astronomy and space science. My name is
• 0:07
  Andrew Dunley and we have got a lot to
• 0:10
  talk about as always. Uh this is a
• 0:13
  really interesting story to start us
• 0:14
  off. Two exoplanets have collided.
• 0:17
  Apparently, it happened on the corner of
• 0:18
  George Street and Martin Place in
• 0:20
  Sydney. Uh and they weren't insured. Uh
• 0:23
  we've got more interesting data from
• 0:26
  Dart. See what I did there? and uh a
• 0:29
  paper looking at Australia's telescopic
• 0:32
  science future with a strategic
• 0:33
  partnership about to end. What does it
• 0:35
  all mean? We will tell you on this
• 0:38
  episode of Space Nuts.
• 0:40
  >> 15 seconds. Guidance is internal. 10 9
• 0:44
  Ignition sequence start.
• 0:46
  >> Space nuts.
• 0:47
  >> 5 4 3 2
• 0:50
  >> 1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1
• 0:52
  >> Space Nuts.
• 0:53
  >> Astronauts report. It feels good.
• 0:56
  And he's back again to throw furniture
• 0:58
  at us. No, to furnish us with his
• 0:59
  knowledge. It's Professor Fred Watson,
• 1:03
  astronomer at large. Hello, Fred.
• 1:06
  >> You You're on fire today, Andrew.
• 1:08
  >> I don't know what to call it. Maybe not
• 1:10
  on fire.
• 1:12
  >> It's turned in me. It's cost me my
• 1:14
  voice. Having a coughing fit. Excuse me.
• 1:18
  Yes. Um, I am going to furnish you with
• 1:21
  any gems of information that I can drag
• 1:23
  up from wherever they happen to be
• 1:24
  lurking. Very good. I appreciate it.
• 1:27
  Otherwise, it would be very boring show.
• 1:30
  >> Yes.
• 1:31
  >> Yeah. Um, how are things? Everything
• 1:33
  good down in your neck of the woods?
• 1:36
  >> Yeah. Not doing too badly. The uh the uh
• 1:40
  uh job that I do, which is um uh a sort
• 1:45
  of vague job of as a professor of
• 1:47
  astronomy, is getting bit busier and
• 1:49
  busier. A lot going on. Um, and we'll
• 1:52
  talk about some of that actually in in
• 1:53
  this uh week's episode. But um, yes, all
• 1:57
  good so far.
• 1:58
  >> Excellent
• 1:58
  >> as far as it goes.
• 2:00
  >> All right.
• 2:00
  >> Actually, I can tell you I might I might
• 2:02
  have mentioned this to you last week.
• 2:04
  Um, over the weekend I was down in CRA
• 2:08
  uh because I was narrating uh a some
• 2:12
  music about the sky given by a classical
• 2:15
  ensemble called the Griffin Ensemble who
• 2:17
  I've worked with before. They uh they uh
• 2:20
  are a a sort of eightpiece alto together
• 2:25
  uh classical music ensemble. They're
• 2:27
  very popular in Canbor and they do a
• 2:29
  work uh which was written by an Estonian
• 2:32
  composer who's now no longer with us.
• 2:35
  Uh both the leader of the ensemble and I
• 2:38
  have met that guy um a long time ago. uh
• 2:41
  but he's he wrote a big piece called
• 2:43
  Southern Sky about the southern
• 2:44
  hemisphere constellations and uh they
• 2:47
  were playing excerpts from that in the
• 2:50
  two concerts that we gave on Sunday and
• 2:52
  my job is to say a little bit about not
• 2:54
  the constellations but sort of what they
• 2:56
  mean what what what astronomy what's
• 2:58
  going on in astronomy just to add a
• 3:00
  little bit of uh uh perhaps a little bit
• 3:03
  of structure to the program and uh both
• 3:06
  there were two sellout concerts we had
• 3:08
  full house each time and it all seemed
• 3:10
  go very well.
• 3:11
  >> Yeah. Fantastic. Gee, that's different,
• 3:13
  isn't it?
• 3:14
  >> Yeah. Yeah. It's um some it's very it's
• 3:17
  very close to my heart because uh
• 3:19
  classical music's always been my thing
• 3:20
  and uh it uh it's really nice to be able
• 3:23
  to participate in it at that kind of
• 3:25
  level.
• 3:26
  >> Yeah. Wow.
• 3:26
  >> These are top top class musicians
• 3:28
  >> and and you and you say they're very
• 3:30
  popular in Canberra.
• 3:31
  >> Yeah. Yep.
• 3:32
  >> That's that's difficult to do to be
• 3:34
  popular in Canra.
• 3:37
  >> Yeah, I know. We did take um one one
• 3:39
  when we started doing this. The very
• 3:41
  first time we did it, it was in the
• 3:42
  ruins of one of the telescope domes at
• 3:45
  Mount Stromlo after the fire burned down
• 3:48
  few yeah years earlier and it was really
• 3:50
  what an atmosphere. It was just in this
• 3:52
  circular building which was a dome once
• 3:55
  with the peers of the telescope. The
• 3:56
  telescope had gone it was burnt but the
• 3:58
  concrete remained and quite uh quite
• 4:02
  spectacular and that was the first time
• 4:03
  we did it. We've probably done it 20
• 4:05
  times since. It was uh featured on ABC
• 4:08
  Classics a few years ago as well, so we
• 4:11
  can kind of probably find it somewhere.
• 4:14
  >> Yeah, it's done.
• 4:15
  >> Wow, what a venue, too. And you just had
• 4:17
  to tear away all the police tape so you
• 4:18
  could get in. So, yeah, that would
• 4:22
  >> Yeah,
• 4:24
  >> shall we get to it?
• 4:26
  >> Yeah, let's get to it. Sorry to to
• 4:27
  >> Oh, no. No, it was really interesting.
• 4:30
  Oh. Um, yeah, actually in our next
• 4:33
  episode we're going to hear from
• 4:34
  somebody else who does something
• 4:35
  completely different because we asked
• 4:37
  the question about um, yeah, tell us
• 4:40
  more about your job and they did. So,
• 4:42
  we'll look forward to that. That'll be
• 4:44
  fun.
• 4:44
  >> That's really interesting as well.
• 4:46
  >> It is. Um, but first, let's talk about
• 4:50
  um this this fascinating discovery uh,
• 4:53
  which didn't happen happen near us
• 4:55
  thankfully. Uh, two exoplanets have been
• 4:57
  witnessed colliding. Uh, it wasn't a car
• 5:01
  crash, but um, probably a little bit
• 5:03
  worse in the scheme of things. Pretty
• 5:06
  spectacular, I would imagine, if you
• 5:07
  were uh, you know, at a ringside seat
• 5:10
  for that on an orbit side seat.
• 5:12
  >> Um, yeah, this is uh, work that's come
• 5:15
  from uh, University of Washington
• 5:18
  >> uh, in the US. It is uh a a piece of uh
• 5:23
  research
• 5:25
  concentrating on a star which is 11,000
• 5:27
  lighty years away. It's not nearby. This
• 5:29
  is you know this is kind of the well
• 5:31
  it's well well well in the depths of the
• 5:34
  galaxy compared with where we are. Um
• 5:36
  and it's a I might tell you the name of
• 5:38
  the star because we should always give
• 5:40
  our stars names. It's called Gaia 20
• 5:42
  EHK. Uh and it's a bog standard main
• 5:47
  sequence as we call them star a lot like
• 5:49
  the sun uh and is like the sun um
• 5:55
  constant in its light output. So this
• 5:57
  thing's been monitored since 2016
• 6:00
  uh beg pardon since before 2016. Um it
• 6:04
  the Gaia spacecraft is a is a what's
• 6:08
  called an astrometric spacecraft. It
• 6:10
  measures the positions of objects in
• 6:13
  space very accurately. Uh but it also
• 6:15
  measures their brightness. And um it's
• 6:17
  been going now for oh gosh don't know
• 6:20
  how when it went into orbit. I should
• 6:21
  check that. Uh but anyway Gaia 20 ehk
• 6:24
  was one of the stars that was monitored
• 6:26
  by it. U and then in 2016 uh things
• 6:30
  started happening. Uh and what basically
• 6:34
  happened was something that we expect
• 6:36
  when we have a planet in orbit around
• 6:39
  another star. Uh you get uh a dip in
• 6:43
  brightness. That's how you know we've
• 6:45
  talked about this many many times on
• 6:47
  space notes. It's how you often how you
• 6:49
  discover that stars have planets going
• 6:51
  around them because the planet passes in
• 6:53
  front of the star. it drops the
• 6:55
  brightness of the star very slightly and
• 6:57
  you can measure that and if it does it
• 6:59
  again of months or weeks or days
• 7:01
  sometimes later then you you can
• 7:03
  identify it as being due to a planet
• 7:05
  going round this star and so we happen
• 7:08
  to be looking along the plane of the
• 7:10
  orbit of the planet that's that's the
• 7:13
  trick that's the statistical bit but it
• 7:15
  turns out you can you know there's still
• 7:17
  a lot that you can discover doing that
• 7:19
  anyway 2016 it had three dips in
• 7:22
  brightness uh over a um matter of years.
• 7:27
  But then in 2021, and I love the the um
• 7:32
  the description by the lead researcher
• 7:35
  on this work, it went completely
• 7:37
  bonkers.
• 7:38
  Um um a quote says, "I can't emphasize
• 7:43
  enough that stars like our son don't do
• 7:45
  that." So when we saw this one, we were
• 7:47
  like, "Hello, what's going on here?" And
• 7:49
  by bunkers, he meant that um there were
• 7:52
  many, many dips. it it just sort of it
• 7:55
  wasn't um uh it wasn't a a a steady slow
• 8:00
  dip and then a coming back to
• 8:02
  brightness. It was almost like a
• 8:03
  flickering
• 8:05
  >> uh of the light of the star. And what
• 8:08
  they assumed from that, the research
• 8:11
  team, was that this is probably the
• 8:14
  result of a lot of rock and dust passing
• 8:19
  in front of the star as it goes around
• 8:21
  in orbit. Meanwhile, the the sort of
• 8:24
  steady dips have disappeared and all
• 8:26
  you've got is this this almost
• 8:28
  flickering. And so what this is being
• 8:31
  interpreted as is that two planets which
• 8:34
  caused the original dips uh in orbit
• 8:37
  around Gaia 28 AHK collided. Uh and we
• 8:42
  have caught that you know by these
• 8:44
  observations with the GIA spacecraft. Uh
• 8:47
  so those um those planets are no more.
• 8:51
  But what we've got is a cloud of large
• 8:54
  chunks probably of debris which is
• 8:57
  causing the the flickering. And the the
• 9:00
  real the bit of this that I really like
• 9:03
  is that they didn't just say, "Oh, well
• 9:05
  that's that's the end of that. That's we
• 9:07
  we know that that's what's happened."
• 9:09
  What they did was they also observed
• 9:12
  this star in infrared radiation. They
• 9:16
  used a a different telescope um to to
• 9:20
  observe it with infrared. And uh let me
• 9:25
  quote uh again from the um lead author.
• 9:28
  The infrared light curve uh which is the
• 9:32
  the way the light varies over time. The
• 9:34
  infrared light curve was the complete
• 9:36
  opposite of the visible light. As the
• 9:39
  visible light began to flicker and dim,
• 9:41
  the infrared light spiked, which could
• 9:44
  mean that the material blocking the star
• 9:46
  is hot.
• 9:47
  >> So hot that it's glowing in the
• 9:48
  infrared.
• 9:50
  >> Um, and that's the kind of the smoking
• 9:52
  gun because if if you're looking at the
• 9:54
  debris of a collision, this is a very
• 9:56
  violent event. Uh, what you would expect
• 10:00
  is for that debris to be hot, and it is
• 10:02
  hot in the infrared. uh sorry it's
• 10:05
  visible in the infrared revealing that
• 10:07
  it is actually hot. So what um the way
• 10:10
  they're uh interpreting this and another
• 10:13
  quote from the lead author uh Andy, let
• 10:17
  me try and pronounce his name or
• 10:20
  pronounce their name. I should say it's
• 10:22
  Zanidaris.
• 10:24
  Sanidaris. Hope that's all right.
• 10:26
  >> Close enough.
• 10:26
  >> Uh yeah.
• 10:29
  Um it uh the quote is that could be
• 10:31
  caused by the two planets spiraling
• 10:34
  closer and closer to each other. At
• 10:36
  first they had a series of grazing
• 10:38
  impacts which would wouldn't produce a
• 10:40
  lot of infrared energy. Then they had
• 10:42
  their big catastrophic collision and the
• 10:44
  infrared really ramped up. And so um the
• 10:48
  link that these researchers are drawing
• 10:51
  uh with our own solar system are I think
• 10:54
  um in many ways quite profound because
• 10:56
  what we might be seeing there is a
• 10:58
  similar event to the one in which the
• 11:01
  moon was created. Um um again something
• 11:04
  we've talked about a lot the fact that
• 11:06
  perhaps 4.5 billion years ago very early
• 11:08
  in the history of the solar system uh an
• 11:11
  object about the size of Mars uh which
• 11:14
  we call thea collided with the the young
• 11:18
  earth and lifted clouds of debris uh
• 11:22
  which eventually coalesed to form the
• 11:24
  moon. So that is uh you know if we've
• 11:28
  seen something like that actually
• 11:29
  happening uh as we seem to have done
• 11:31
  with uh this particular star maybe uh
• 11:35
  there is an exomoon on the way uh being
• 11:38
  formed as we speak as a result of these
• 11:41
  collisions.
• 11:41
  >> Of course 11,000 years have passed since
• 11:45
  the event.
• 11:46
  >> Yes, that's right.
• 11:47
  >> We're only seeing it now but uh yeah
• 11:50
  it's it's already 11,000 years since
• 11:53
  that happened.
• 11:54
  Still can't get my head around that
• 11:56
  stuff. But uh it's Yeah. So, who knows
• 11:59
  what's going on there. It could create a
• 12:01
  moon. It could create a a much bigger
• 12:03
  planet. It could just become an asteroid
• 12:05
  belt. You just don't know, do you?
• 12:08
  >> That's right. That all of those are
• 12:09
  possibilities. Unfortunately, it'll
• 12:11
  probably take, as they say, it'll take a
• 12:13
  few million years for the all this to
• 12:15
  settle down.
• 12:15
  >> Yeah.
• 12:16
  >> Uh to let us see kind of, you know, what
• 12:19
  what actually has happened. So in a few
• 12:21
  million years time, Gaia will probably
• 12:22
  be defunct by then, but we might be
• 12:24
  observing it by different means.
• 12:26
  >> And I looked that up. It was launched in
• 12:27
  2013 and got got down to business in
• 12:30
  2014. So
• 12:32
  >> So yeah. So So that's a couple of years
• 12:34
  of observing this star when it did
• 12:36
  nothing and then suddenly you started
• 12:38
  seeing these dips. Yes. Went weird.
• 12:40
  >> Very strange. Another interesting
• 12:42
  coincidence about GIA 20HK is that um
• 12:47
  apparently
• 12:49
  that collision happened 93 million miles
• 12:51
  from the star which is pretty much the
• 12:54
  same distance we are from our star.
• 12:57
  >> 150 million kilometers. That's correct.
• 12:59
  Yeah. So it's um that's right. Uh which
• 13:02
  I I thought was an interesting fact as
• 13:04
  well just as a coincidence. Um, but what
• 13:08
  I guess what that means is because it is
• 13:10
  a sunlike star and you've got this going
• 13:13
  on 150 mill million kilometers away from
• 13:16
  it the same distance as we are from the
• 13:18
  sun uh it might what's happening there
• 13:22
  might almost mimic what has happened
• 13:24
  here uh in our solar system that yes you
• 13:27
  might end up with a earthlike planet and
• 13:29
  a and a moon um
• 13:32
  >> in a few million years time. Well, we'll
• 13:34
  we'll uh we'll get back to that then, I
• 13:37
  suppose.
• 13:38
  >> Yes, we we will we'll we'll return to
• 13:40
  that story then. There may be more news.
• 13:42
  I mean, it's clearly this is uh it's a
• 13:44
  big story in the astronomy world. It's
• 13:46
  uh such a rare event to see something
• 13:49
  like that. I think there will be more
• 13:50
  studies and we might have more
• 13:51
  information coming out of it, not in a
• 13:53
  million years, but maybe within the next
• 13:55
  few months.
• 13:55
  >> You never know. All right. Uh if you'd
• 13:57
  like to read about it, it's on the
• 13:59
  space.com website, but you can also read
• 14:01
  the entire paper, which will take you a
• 14:03
  couple of billion years uh at um it's in
• 14:07
  astrophysical journal letters. This is
• 14:10
  Space Nuts with Andrew Dunley and
• 14:11
  Professor Fred Watson.
• 14:14
  Let's take a break from the show to tell
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• 15:48
  >> Hey, that's one of the better sims.
• 15:49
  Believe me,
• 15:50
  >> we've had a couple of cardiac arrests
• 15:52
  down here, too, peeps.
• 15:53
  >> There weren't any time for that up here.
• 15:55
  >> Space nuts.
• 15:58
  Now, it was only a week ago, maybe two,
• 16:02
  where we talked about some interesting
• 16:04
  data that came out of the Dart mission,
• 16:08
  that uh impact on a little moon orbiting
• 16:12
  a uh an asteroid. Uh, and it's the gift
• 16:16
  that keeps on giving, Fred, this
• 16:18
  particular mission, because there is
• 16:20
  even more information that's come out.
• 16:22
  And this this is really strange, this
• 16:24
  one. And I I would not have considered
• 16:26
  this, but there it is in black and
• 16:28
  white.
• 16:30
  >> Purple and white as I'm seeing it as
• 16:32
  well. Could be purple and white.
• 16:34
  >> Purple and white. Yes. Uh which is the
• 16:36
  color coding of the image that um is the
• 16:38
  story that we're talking about. So yes,
• 16:41
  Dart uh the the double asteroid
• 16:44
  redirection test. Very successful
• 16:46
  collision of a little impactor, 600 kgs.
• 16:50
  I think you corrected me on last time we
• 16:52
  spoke about it. Uh and uh that actually
• 16:55
  shifted the orbit of Demorphus, a little
• 16:58
  moon 170 m across around its parent
• 17:02
  asteroid um Ditimos, which I think is
• 17:05
  about 700 m across. Uh and it changed
• 17:09
  its orbit by 13 minutes, the orbital
• 17:11
  period. So a successful uh really
• 17:14
  successful mission. Um, we spoke last
• 17:17
  week about the fact that not only had
• 17:18
  that changed the impact, not only had
• 17:21
  the impact changed the orbit of uh,
• 17:23
  Demorphus around Ditimos, it had also
• 17:26
  changed the orbit of both of them around
• 17:27
  the sun by a tiny tiny amount, but
• 17:30
  enough to be significant and enough to
• 17:32
  mean that maybe there is hope that one
• 17:35
  day down the track if we really were
• 17:37
  faced with uh, the prospect of an
• 17:39
  asteroid impacting the Earth, there
• 17:40
  might be there might be things we could
• 17:42
  do. uh but the latest comes from some
• 17:46
  research university of uh I think it's
• 17:48
  Johns Hopkins University and University
• 17:50
  of Maryland uh and what they've done is
• 17:54
  they've looked very closely at the
• 17:57
  images of uh Demorphus the little moon
• 18:03
  uh which of course was captured by the
• 18:05
  onboard camera on Dart getting bigger
• 18:08
  very rapidly as uh as as Dart h hurtled
• 18:12
  toward at what was it six kilometers/s
• 18:16
  uh for the impact and the last few
• 18:18
  images of that of course are very very
• 18:19
  detailed and so what these scientists
• 18:21
  have done is they've said we wonder if
• 18:25
  uh and I should explain what d what the
• 18:28
  what Dimmos looks like it's it's a
• 18:30
  what's called a rubber pile it just
• 18:32
  looks like a pile of dirt with boulders
• 18:34
  all over it some of them quite big uh
• 18:36
  with no real structure to it just a a
• 18:39
  potato-shaped object with lots of
• 18:41
  boulders on and and clearly dirt and
• 18:44
  debris at very small scales. So what
• 18:47
  they wondered was whether there was any
• 18:50
  structure that would be visible uh sort
• 18:54
  of underlying structure in the shape of
• 18:56
  that moon
• 18:57
  >> and
• 18:59
  uh some really neat image processing.
• 19:02
  They've taken away the shadows of
• 19:06
  boulders and taken away the images of
• 19:09
  boulders. They had done a sort of search
• 19:11
  algorithm for the things that kind of
• 19:13
  would hide any any underlying structure.
• 19:17
  Uh and sure enough when they did that uh
• 19:21
  they revealed a whole set of streaks uh
• 19:25
  on the surface um quite you know marked
• 19:29
  streaks um many many meters long uh all
• 19:33
  of which seem to um basically originate
• 19:37
  from one point
• 19:39
  on the uh on the on this moon's surface
• 19:42
  which as I understand it is the point
• 19:45
  that corresponds to the direction to the
• 19:47
  parent asteroid uh Ditimos
• 19:51
  uh because it's tidily locked. Andrew,
• 19:54
  the um Demorphos always keeps the same
• 19:56
  face towards Diddimos. That's the
• 19:58
  >> normal situation with something like
• 20:00
  that. And what they're interpreting this
• 20:03
  as being about is m material being
• 20:07
  transferred from uh from Ditimos to
• 20:11
  Demorphus and sort of landing with a
• 20:13
  splat on the surface of Demorphus and
• 20:16
  causing these streaks to basically uh
• 20:19
  emanate from the the point of impact. Uh
• 20:23
  what they are saying is that it's a
• 20:26
  cosmic snowball fight. That's Scitec
• 20:28
  Daly's words. Um, and so it it it is
• 20:33
  very very intriguing. And I they've done
• 20:36
  experiments to show that yes, if you
• 20:38
  splat cosmic snowballs on a surface, you
• 20:40
  get these streaks. Uh, but um the the
• 20:45
  the mechanism for this is
• 20:49
  uh something that they've hypothesized,
• 20:52
  but it probably is the mechanism for
• 20:55
  what's happening. And it's um relies on
• 20:59
  the Yorp effect
• 21:01
  uh which I have heard of before but I
• 21:03
  can never remember what it stands for.
• 21:04
  And the reason for that is that it's
• 21:07
  four names. Yakovski, O'Keefe, Red
• 21:11
  Seiski,
• 21:13
  and Paddock
• 21:14
  Yo RP. The initials of those I'm not
• 21:17
  going to try and attempt it again. But
• 21:20
  the York effect is where uh if you've
• 21:24
  got an asteroid, small asteroid,
• 21:27
  sunlight that's falling on it, the sun's
• 21:29
  radiation actually increases its
• 21:33
  rotation rate. It sort of spins it up.
• 21:37
  >> And
• 21:38
  as that happens, if you've got loose
• 21:41
  material uh near the equator, it can
• 21:46
  actually be flung off. Um that was one
• 21:49
  of the early hypotheses for how the moon
• 21:51
  was formed that uh the earth when it was
• 21:54
  born was rotating so quickly that
• 21:57
  centrifugal force lifted stuff off its
• 21:59
  equator which eventually coalesed to
• 22:01
  form the moon. It was um uh that theory
• 22:05
  was due to the son of the inventor of
• 22:11
  evolution.
• 22:13
  Uh and I can't remember the son's name
• 22:15
  never mind. Uh it's so a couple of
• 22:17
  famous famous people. Charles Darwin's
• 22:20
  son, I've forgotten his name. Charles
• 22:22
  Darwin's son was an astrophysicist or an
• 22:24
  astronomer and he he uh suggested that
• 22:27
  was the way the moon had originated. Uh
• 22:29
  and and we now know it's not that the
• 22:31
  the earth never rotated fast enough to
• 22:33
  do that. But Dinimos might have rotated
• 22:37
  fast enough to release material from its
• 22:40
  equator and splat it towards uh the
• 22:43
  little moon that it has in orbit around
• 22:46
  it. So yeah, so remarkable really
• 22:49
  remarkable piece of work.
• 22:51
  >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh as for Charles Darwin's
• 22:54
  son, well, you've got a you got a few to
• 22:56
  choose from. There's William George, uh
• 22:59
  Francis, Leonard, Horus, and Charles Jr.
• 23:03
  So take your pick.
• 23:05
  >> Yeah, because Scott and his wife had 10
• 23:07
  kids.
• 23:10
  >> It might have been Well, there you go.
• 23:12
  It's evolution for you. Uh I think it
• 23:15
  might have been William. It's probably
• 23:16
  very easy to find because um uh the
• 23:19
  younger Darwin uh whichever one it was
• 23:22
  was quite prominent in the world of
• 23:23
  astronomy.
• 23:25
  >> Uh yeah, he was he was first born in
• 23:27
  1839. William Erasmus
• 23:31
  uh Darwin,
• 23:32
  >> eldest child.
• 23:33
  >> That's okay.
• 23:34
  >> Yeah.
• 23:34
  >> Although if he was a banker.
• 23:37
  >> Oh, well that might mean Oh,
• 23:38
  >> hang on. It'll be George because he was
• 23:40
  a prominent mathematician and
• 23:41
  astronomer.
• 23:42
  >> That's it. Okay. There you go. George
• 23:44
  Howard Darwin.
• 23:46
  >> Very good.
• 23:46
  >> Yeah,
• 23:47
  >> we got there in the end.
• 23:48
  >> We did. We did eventually. Yeah. Um
• 23:51
  Yeah.
• 23:52
  >> Now, I did have a bit of trouble with
• 23:54
  you breaking up, so I missed a couple of
• 23:56
  bits and pieces. Uh
• 23:57
  >> oh, sorry. No, that's okay. But um these
• 24:00
  things happen. It's the internet after
• 24:01
  all. It's perfect. Um did we finish?
• 24:06
  >> No, I was just going to say make one
• 24:08
  more comment. There's there is a
• 24:10
  spacecraft called her which um is going
• 24:13
  to visit uh the Diddimos system. So we
• 24:17
  should see more evidence of this kind of
• 24:19
  thing. There'll be better images uh down
• 24:22
  the track than what we've been working
• 24:23
  with so far. So I think this is again is
• 24:25
  a story that we'll revisit at some point
• 24:26
  down the track.
• 24:27
  >> Very good. Uh I must say the image that
• 24:30
  they've published on scitecdaily.com
• 24:34
  uh with that color um impression makes
• 24:37
  it look like a passion fruit.
• 24:40
  >> It does. Yes. Yes. There you go. I've
• 24:44
  got must be a link there as well. You
• 24:46
  know, you got to create mind pictures
• 24:48
  with this sort of thing. So there you
• 24:49
  are. It's
• 24:50
  >> Yes, you do. Which is very Yes. It's a
• 24:52
  bit bigger than the standard passion
• 24:53
  fruit, but um yeah, probably not quite
• 24:56
  as nice. Yeah. Uh you can also read that
• 25:00
  article uh in the Planetary Science
• 25:03
  Journal. You're listening to Space Nuts
• 25:05
  with Andrew Dunley and Professor Fred
• 25:07
  Watson.
• 25:10
  >> I'm going to step off the limb now.
• 25:14
  That's one small step for man,
• 25:20
  one leap for mankind.
• 25:23
  >> Space nuts.
• 25:25
  >> Our final story, and this this sort of
• 25:28
  uh is a a pretty serious story in terms
• 25:31
  of the future of uh telescopic science
• 25:34
  in Australia. Uh and it's all about uh
• 25:38
  an arrangement or or um an agreement.
• 25:43
  I'm trying to think of the word. A
• 25:44
  strategic partnership maybe uh between
• 25:46
  the European Southern Observatory and
• 25:48
  the University of New South Wales or
• 25:50
  Australian Telescope um
• 25:54
  uh telescopic um infrastructure. Uh but
• 25:57
  um it that's due to end and there's a
• 26:01
  risk that we might sort of be left high
• 26:03
  and dry seems to be the inst of this
• 26:06
  story.
• 26:07
  >> That's correct. Yeah. So um what's
• 26:09
  what's prompted uh this this is
• 26:11
  something that I've been deeply involved
• 26:13
  with for the last three years
• 26:16
  >> uh although um so you're absolutely
• 26:19
  right in 2017
• 26:22
  uh in again it was the federal
• 26:24
  government that underwrote this um
• 26:26
  Australia the Australian government
• 26:29
  entered into a strategic partnership
• 26:30
  with the European Southern Observatory
• 26:32
  which gave Australian astronomers access
• 26:34
  to first of all the four uh 8.2 2 meter
• 26:38
  telescopes of the VLT, the very large
• 26:40
  telescope down in Chile and a number of
• 26:42
  other ESO telescopes as well were
• 26:44
  included uh in that deal. One that
• 26:47
  wasn't was ALMA, the Atakama Large
• 26:49
  Millimeter Array in which ESO has a a
• 26:51
  share. Uh but um the the others were and
• 26:55
  it's been absolutely transformative for
• 26:58
  Australian astronomy because the biggest
• 27:00
  telescope we had available as of right
• 27:03
  before that was the Anglo Australian
• 27:05
  telescope, a 3.9 meter telescope. uh
• 27:07
  still doing great work, but um it's only
• 27:10
  half the size of the world's largest
• 27:12
  now. Uh and it's uh on a on a fairly
• 27:17
  indifferent site. They've lost the last
• 27:19
  two nights because of cloud. That's very
• 27:21
  typical. Uh whereas that just doesn't
• 27:23
  happen in uh the Atakama desert. Uh they
• 27:27
  lose virtually no time to cloud. So you
• 27:29
  and you've got exquisite uh image
• 27:32
  quality because of the lack of
• 27:33
  atmospheric turbulence. So that um for
• 27:36
  many years has been uh the holy grail of
• 27:39
  Australian astronomers wanting
• 27:41
  association with ESO. Uh Australian
• 27:44
  astronomers every 10 years put out a
• 27:46
  decadal plan. Uh a new one has just been
• 27:50
  released last year. It's uh but for the
• 27:52
  last three I think membership of the
• 27:55
  European Southern Observatory has been
• 27:57
  top of the list. Um and in fact we
• 28:00
  nearly got it back in 1996 but that
• 28:02
  didn't quite work out. The strategic
• 28:04
  partnership was uh a special deal um and
• 28:08
  it was sort of almost like a try before
• 28:11
  you buy arrangement um with the hope
• 28:16
  back in 2017,
• 28:18
  excuse me, that by the end of the
• 28:20
  strategic partnership uh Australia would
• 28:22
  be in a position to um enter into full
• 28:25
  membership of the European Southern
• 28:27
  Observatory rather than just this
• 28:29
  partnership. So that was the bright
• 28:32
  hope. Excuse me. 10 years have gone by.
• 28:36
  Sorry, I've got froggy my throat about
• 28:38
  this. Um 10 years have gone by which
• 28:41
  have been very successful for Australian
• 28:43
  astronomers. But we're now reaching the
• 28:45
  end of that deal. Uh it ends next year
• 28:47
  in fact at the end of next year and in
• 28:49
  fact this July is the last deadline for
• 28:52
  which Australian astronomers can apply
• 28:54
  for time. So it's really, you know, the
• 28:57
  the the pointy end of this is coming up.
• 29:02
  Excuse me. European Southern
• 29:04
  Observatory, sorry about that, is very
• 29:06
  keen for Australia to become full
• 29:09
  members. Uh it's sort of looking as
• 29:12
  though Canada might be as well. Um they
• 29:15
  might be assess um accessing to full
• 29:18
  membership. Not sure about that. But
• 29:20
  Australia, of course, all Australian
• 29:22
  astronomers are keen. the Australian um
• 29:25
  uh sorry the European Southern
• 29:28
  Observatory is keen. What's the problem?
• 29:30
  The problem is it's quite expensive.
• 29:33
  >> Uh it's an expensive venture. Um and
• 29:37
  your so your annual subscription to ESO
• 29:41
  is it depends on your gross domestic
• 29:44
  product. uh and ours is high enough that
• 29:47
  it means that our fee for membership of
• 29:50
  ESO is is is relatively high. It's $40
• 29:54
  million a year. That would be what it
• 29:56
  would cost uh for us to join ESO.
• 30:00
  Now, the problem at the moment is we're
• 30:03
  in a an era of fiscal um well
• 30:07
  limitations. uh the governments, federal
• 30:11
  government in particular, are trying to
• 30:13
  reduce costs and you know when you put
• 30:16
  it against a hospital or something like
• 30:18
  that, uh $40 million a year is is quite
• 30:22
  significant amount. Uh but what the
• 30:26
  press release that's just been released
• 30:28
  by by the University of New South Wales,
• 30:30
  which is why you picked that up at the
• 30:33
  beginning, uh it's uh drawing attention
• 30:36
  to uh an economic study by a very
• 30:40
  wellrespected economist in Australia, uh
• 30:43
  Professor Richard Holden, who's also at
• 30:46
  the University of New South Wales, hence
• 30:48
  the press release from UNSW. Um he has
• 30:52
  shown that
• 30:55
  um far from it being a luxury item for
• 31:00
  governments to fund astronomy and to
• 31:03
  include things like membership of the
• 31:05
  European Southern Observatory. Far from
• 31:07
  it being a luxury item, it actually
• 31:09
  generates considerable revenue.
• 31:12
  uh and the just what we do now this
• 31:15
  covers about because um astronomy
• 31:18
  stimulates research into high-end
• 31:20
  instrumentation uh optical
• 31:22
  instrumentation that's developed here in
• 31:25
  Australia is at the top of the list in
• 31:27
  the in the in a on a world scale uh the
• 31:30
  instruments for astronomy and space
• 31:32
  science uh and that um effectively
• 31:36
  stimulates industry to join in with this
• 31:38
  and puts new inventions out there and so
• 31:41
  this uh quite rigorous uh analysis of
• 31:46
  the benefits of being in astronomy by uh
• 31:50
  by professor Richard Holden uh has shown
• 31:54
  and this is his paper that's just been
• 31:56
  published. It shows uh well let me read
• 31:59
  uh there is a strong case for membership
• 32:01
  in the ESO as an investment in basic
• 32:04
  research. While there have been numerous
• 32:06
  uh attempts to quantify the economic
• 32:08
  returns to Australian university
• 32:10
  research, this report concludes by
• 32:13
  taking a novel approach based on
• 32:15
  endogenous growth theory. This produces
• 32:17
  more rigorous and plausible estimates of
• 32:20
  the economic value of existing astronomy
• 32:23
  and astrophysics research in Australia.
• 32:25
  You can see Jordi agrees with all this.
• 32:27
  And the bottom line is uh what comes out
• 32:30
  of research in Australia
• 32:33
  $330 million per year. Uh so what he
• 32:38
  says is at $330 million per year. This
• 32:41
  is an exceptional return on the 184
• 32:44
  tenur and 627 total scholars in the
• 32:47
  field of astronomy in Australia. So a
• 32:50
  small group of people are generating a
• 32:52
  huge economic return because of the
• 32:54
  research that they do. And if you're
• 32:57
  putting $330 million per year out, uh
• 33:00
  then a $40 million uh fee to be part of
• 33:03
  ISO seems like a small uh quite a small
• 33:08
  fee. Uh and what that does though is
• 33:10
  gives Australian astronomers access to
• 33:12
  the very finest facilities in the world.
• 33:16
  Uh we can build instruments for them, we
• 33:18
  can do research with them and uh as I
• 33:20
  said all these spin-offs generate um
• 33:23
  that kind of figure. And one last point
• 33:25
  in this if I may, Andrew, I'm sorry, you
• 33:28
  rambled on a bit as as I do. Um,
• 33:31
  >> Australia of course uh Thank you.
• 33:34
  Australia of course is a uh is one of
• 33:37
  the main uh contributors to the square
• 33:40
  kilometer array observatory. So
• 33:43
  Australia's radio astronomers are going
• 33:44
  to benefit enormously by access when
• 33:48
  that facility comes on stream towards
• 33:50
  the end of the decade. uh part of it in
• 33:52
  South Africa, part of it in Australia,
• 33:54
  the SKA low facility, uh the the biggest
• 33:58
  and best radio telescope anywhere in the
• 34:01
  world, the the two halves of it. Um
• 34:04
  because Australian astronomers have
• 34:05
  access to that. Um it's always been seen
• 34:08
  that the SKA, the square kilometer
• 34:11
  array, would be entirely complimentary
• 34:13
  to the next big thing that ESO is
• 34:15
  building, and they're well under well
• 34:17
  underway with it. And that of course is
• 34:19
  the ELT, the extremely large telescope
• 34:21
  with a mirror 10 times the diameter of
• 34:23
  the Anglo Australian telescope, 39
• 34:25
  meters. When that starts producing data,
• 34:29
  uh 2029 I think is uh currently the
• 34:32
  date, it will revolutionize astronomy.
• 34:35
  It'll absolutely revolutionize
• 34:36
  astronomy. uh and with our astronomers
• 34:40
  here having access also to the world's
• 34:42
  best radio telescope, those two
• 34:44
  facilities dubtail perfectly to give you
• 34:47
  absolutely pole position on the world
• 34:50
  stage uh of astronomy. So um it makes
• 34:53
  that $40 million a year look a lot more
• 34:56
  modest, but the bottom line is the
• 34:59
  decision has not yet been made. That's
• 35:01
  the main thing. So the minister is still
• 35:03
  considering this.
• 35:03
  >> Yeah, but you're talking politics here.
• 35:05
  So the left hand might not know what the
• 35:08
  right hand's doing. So you know someone
• 35:11
  will say 40 million no way not knowing
• 35:14
  that 330 million is being generated.
• 35:17
  >> Yeah that's danger which is
• 35:20
  >> and that's why I'm talking about this
• 35:22
  paper because that is a very compelling
• 35:24
  argument for um you know for um actually
• 35:28
  the government stamping up the joining
• 35:30
  fee. Maybe it'll happen. We um we uh we
• 35:33
  defer to the minister, the Minister for
• 35:35
  Science uh uh and Industry and
• 35:39
  Resources. Uh we'll see what he has to
• 35:41
  say.
• 35:42
  >> Indeed, we will. If you'd like to read
• 35:44
  about that, you can find it at the
• 35:46
  University of New South Wales website
• 35:48
  where they've published the article. Uh
• 35:52
  and um that's about it, Fred. Well, I
• 35:55
  think we're done.
• 35:56
  >> We are. Yes. Um and um maybe we'll end
• 35:59
  on an optimistic note that maybe one day
• 36:01
  you and I'll be talking about the um
• 36:03
  ceremony that allows Australia to join
• 36:06
  ISO. Who knows?
• 36:07
  >> Would be wonderful. Yes, indeed it
• 36:08
  would.
• 36:09
  >> Fred, thanks so much. We'll catch you on
• 36:10
  the next episode.
• 36:12
  >> It sounds good. Thank you, Andrew.
• 36:14
  >> Professor Fred Watson, astronomer at
• 36:16
  large. And don't forget to uh visit our
• 36:19
  website uh in between episodes. You can
• 36:21
  do that at spacenutspodcast.com
• 36:24
  or spacenuts.io.
• 36:27
  uh have a look around, visit the shop.
• 36:29
  Maybe you'd like to become a supporter.
• 36:30
  You can do that by clicking on the
• 36:32
  support our podcast button. Uh or you
• 36:34
  can leave us a message or a question
• 36:35
  through the ask me anything tab at the
• 36:37
  top. Uh just have a look around even. Um
• 36:40
  and uh yeah, that's about it. Uh and
• 36:43
  thanks to Hugh in the studio, although
• 36:45
  he couldn't be with us today, he went
• 36:46
  and raided his piggy bank to see if he
• 36:48
  could scrape up $40 million so that we
• 36:51
  could um become full members of the
• 36:53
  European Southern Observatory. But I
• 36:56
  haven't heard back from him on that. Uh
• 36:58
  I think he ended up at JB Hi-Fi
• 36:59
  actually. Anyway, uh from me, Andrew
• 37:02
  Dunley, thanks for your company. We'll
• 37:03
  catch you on the next episode of Space
• 37:05
  Nuts. Bye-bye.
• 37:06
  >> Space Nuts.
• 37:07
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• 37:10
  podcast,
• 37:12
  >> available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
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