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Hitler Dismantled Democracy In Just 8 Weeks - Here's How... With Prof. Timothy Ryback · The Smart Cookies podcast

0:00
While on the stand, Hitler was asked by the judge
0:02
directly whether he meant to dismantle the Weimar
0:06
Republic, like he was saying, only through constitutional
0:08
means, to which Hitler replied, jawohl. And he
0:14
did exactly that, didn't he? No coup. It's an
0:17
astonishing moment because here you have Hitler
0:21
standing before the highest judicial authority
0:25
in the country. and telling them, essentially
0:28
saying that he intends to establish a dictatorship,
0:34
which was an astonishing remark, but equally
0:37
astonishing was the judges, as you mentioned,
0:40
the right to say, so only through constitutional
0:43
means? And then Hitler goes, it's an amazing
0:47
admission because you could actually have arrested
0:51
Hitler on the spot for treason. And even newspapers
0:55
at that time were going, what is going on here?
1:00
I'm extremely happy to welcome back Professor
1:02
Timothy Ryback, historian of Nazi Germany and
1:05
director of the Institute for Historical Justice
1:07
and Reconciliation in The Hague. Today, we're
1:11
going to be talking about his latest book, Gripping
1:13
Read, I must say, which is called 53 Days How
1:16
Hitler Dismantled a Democracy. Professor Reibach,
1:18
a real pleasure to have you on again. Great to
1:21
be back with smart cookies. You ask smart questions
1:24
and I try to give smart answers. What a great
1:28
start. More of that. Exactly two years ago, we
1:33
tackled your book Takeover, which is a sort of
1:36
like a direct prequel to 53 Days as it centers
1:39
primarily on the year 1932 and Hitler's success
1:43
from being this. bit of a bizarre outsider to
1:47
maneuvering his way to the chancellery. Folks,
1:50
please go listen to that conversation if you
1:51
haven't already. You won't be sorry. Two things
1:54
I want to say here. First of all, I'm extremely
1:56
jealous of your ability to write and publish
1:58
books of this caliber in under two years. When
2:01
I think of what I did during that time, my activities
2:04
were mostly centered around trying new restaurants
2:07
and taking more day naps. So kudos, professor.
2:10
I honestly don't know how you do it. You've had
2:13
a more pleasurable time than I have then. Also
2:17
more guilt. But yeah, I don't know how you do
2:22
it, especially in the age of TikTok, honestly.
2:25
Probably by not having TikTok, right? Well, we
2:27
may get into the issue of research, but it is
2:32
astonishing the tools that are available to us
2:36
now. I've been doing research for... three decades
2:40
and have gotten my fingers very dirty and dust
2:44
the old archives. What's available with search
2:47
engines now is just beyond conception, especially
2:52
with newspapers of the era. And I will maybe
2:59
talk a little bit about the methodology with
3:01
the writing of these books, but there are sites
3:05
in Germany with 11 million pages of newspaper
3:11
reporting. On top of that, it's searchable by
3:17
a name, by a subject matter, which means what
3:23
would have taken someone, what would have taken
3:26
me months, sometimes years, sometimes things
3:30
that would have been impossible to find, you
3:33
have access with the click of a button. So in
3:36
some ways, history, research, we do have TikTok
3:40
and we have all these distractions. At the same
3:43
time, you're able to go in and begin exploring,
3:48
doing this research at an incredibly granular
3:51
level and also reading the whole spectrum. I
3:55
mean, I also live in the real world. I read everything
3:59
from You know, on websites, everything from,
4:03
you know, CNN and the New York Times and on the
4:07
left, BBC, so much central. But I also do Fox
4:11
News to get a sense of the whole spectrum of
4:15
reporting and to try to get an overview. Well,
4:18
I'm now able to do that with these newspaper
4:21
websites, which are incredible. I'm just reading
4:25
the daily press and experiencing it. in real
4:29
time the way I would have going to a newspaper
4:33
kiosk, you know, 80 years ago and picking up
4:38
a copy of, you know, Die Rote Fahne or Vorwärts
4:42
or, you know, the Völkersche Beobachter or any
4:46
of the newspapers in between. And it's an astonishing
4:51
resource. And I think it's also bringing insights
4:56
that have been lost to historians for decades
4:59
or forever it's um it's very fascinating yeah
5:04
but i wanted to ask why did you decide to write
5:09
about these particular eight weeks approximately
5:11
approximately eight weeks like 53 days of hitler's
5:15
early sort of reign now do my guess is that the
5:19
very colorful times in which we live in have
5:21
something to do with it but tell me if i'm wrong
5:24
Yeah, I mean, it was driven as much by interest
5:29
on others as it was by interest on my part. I
5:33
had written Takeover, which looked at basically
5:39
the last six months of Hitler's rise to power.
5:43
It went from the August of 1932. when the Nazis
5:51
had peaked in their electoral performance 37
5:55
% in national elections. Hitler was riding high.
5:59
And what's astonishing is in those six months,
6:03
you think this man is riding a wave. In the next
6:07
six months, he almost destroys his political
6:11
movement politically, financially, and ideologically.
6:16
The book is subtitled Hitler's Final Rise to
6:20
Power. It runs counter to our general assumption
6:24
that, oh, Hitler's rise was inevitable. He suffered
6:28
one setback after another so that by December
6:33
of 1932, his political movement is essentially
6:39
bankrupt politically. economically and even ideologically
6:44
it's threatening to split it's you know the worst
6:47
christmas hitler ever had well my guess Christmas,
6:51
45 was probably worse. But it was, you know,
6:55
it was really a low point for him and his movement.
6:58
And then you had this astonishing turnaround
7:01
in a matter of three or four weeks in January
7:04
of 45. I'm sorry, in January of 33. And so I
7:10
looked at that to say, to sort of show that our
7:14
general assumptions about Hitler's rise to power
7:16
being inevitable were not there. There was...
7:20
any number of points in moments at that time,
7:25
that fall, when he should have been sidelined
7:30
and sort of relegated kind of to the sidelines
7:34
of history, not eliminated completely, but really
7:38
deflated as a political force. So let's quickly
7:41
recap where we left off last time. Chronologically,
7:45
Your new book begins on January 30th, 1933, when
7:50
Hitler becomes the Chancellor of Germany. How
7:54
is this failed Austrian painter with no university
7:58
degree, no resume, and no political connections
8:02
really able to pull this off? I think a key factor,
8:09
you know, there's the old Bill Clinton political...
8:13
which is, it's the economy, stupid, which was
8:17
what he ran on back in the 1990s very successfully.
8:22
And what happened was, I just mentioned this
8:26
near collapse of the collapsing of Hitler's political
8:32
movement. It was at that time, Hitler, for all
8:37
of the dislike that... conservative forces had
8:42
in Germany for his movement, he was actually
8:46
the one bulwark they had against Bolshevism.
8:49
And we can't forget that we had the Russian Revolution
8:52
behind us. There was a very aggressive international
8:55
communist movement, and it was significant. The
8:59
communists were getting 20 % in the polls in
9:03
elections, and in some regions, much higher.
9:07
in local elections. So there was a concern. As
9:10
much as most people hated Hitler, they saw him
9:14
as a kind of a bulwark against communism. for
9:19
the country. Well, when his movement began to
9:22
dissemble or threatened to dissemble in December
9:25
of 33, you had the conservatives, especially
9:28
the industrialists, getting together and giving
9:32
money to buck up his party. You had other conservatives
9:36
maneuvering to put him in power with the notion
9:40
that we're going to be able to control the sky.
9:44
And in fact, Hindenburg, who is a president,
9:47
you know, the head of state, appoints Hitler
9:50
as chancellor. Head of government commented that
9:54
this guy will burn himself out in six weeks.
9:57
So Hitler was kind of seen as a temporary fix
10:01
to a long -term problem. Famous last words by
10:05
Hindenburg. Okay, so against all odds, Hitler
10:09
becomes chancellor. This position, as grand as
10:13
it might sound, wasn't actually all that powerful
10:16
or stable for that matter, right? There were
10:19
a whopping 12 of these guys in a little over
10:22
10 years in Weimar, Germany. I read that being
10:25
a chancellor basically meant that you were kind
10:28
of like the top administrator who's constantly
10:30
fighting for survival. Is that true? Absolutely.
10:34
One of the running jokes was, and keep in mind...
10:37
Hitler was appointed the 15th, 16th chancellor
10:41
of the Weimar Republic. Hindenburg had dismissed
10:45
and appointed three chancellors in the previous
10:49
eight months. So when Hitler came in, nothing
10:52
stopped Hindenburg from dismissing Hitler. When
10:56
the general public... watching this parade, and
11:01
this goes back to reading the daily press, one
11:05
commentator said, well, at this rate, every German
11:09
citizen is going to have a chance to be a chancellor
11:12
at some point. So there was a lot of concern
11:16
when Hitler came to power. It's like, my God,
11:19
who have you now appointed? But there was also
11:24
this thing saying, look. He is only the chancellor.
11:27
He's not the president. And a Hindenburg who
11:32
had shown himself to be a defender of the Constitution
11:36
since his election in the previous term, he was
11:40
now entering his second term as president. There
11:44
was a sense that as much as he may be a monarchist
11:47
at heart, he had sworn an oath to defend the
11:52
constitutional republic. And he was going to
11:55
do that. Okay. So Hitler gets the position. He
11:59
gets the title. What's his opening gambit? What
12:02
are some of his first moves? Well, and this goes
12:06
back to when you said these 53 days. The previous
12:11
book ends at basically 1130 in the morning on
12:15
Monday, January 30th. This new book, 53 Days,
12:20
picks up. after lunch a couple of hours later,
12:24
and literally with, you know, with Hitler's first
12:28
cabinet meeting. And suddenly we have Hitler
12:32
sitting in the chancellor's seat with a cabinet.
12:38
Now, keep in mind, you know, they have basically
12:41
this Austrian uneducated, as you said, failed
12:47
painter with his Austrian accent. sitting there
12:51
with basically prussian aristocrats uh you know
12:56
fun bloomberg um fun pop and uh you've got a
13:02
lot of funds a lot of funds you've got alfred
13:05
hugenberg who's one of the wealthiest men so
13:08
it's all of these very powerful very um i wouldn't
13:11
say accomplished people but very entitled people
13:14
sitting there you know with this failed austrian
13:18
painter. And what's interesting about it, they
13:22
all hated Hitler. Hitler knew that. But when
13:24
you look at Hitler's opening remarks, what he
13:28
says is, he reminds them, he says, millions of
13:33
people, because this is the previous year, millions
13:37
of people have voted to help bring me to power.
13:45
What he's reminding them of. is that none of
13:49
them have anything close to that. Papen, who's
13:52
sitting in the room, had been a previous chancellor
13:56
and holds the record to this day to being the
13:59
most unpopular chancellor in German history.
14:02
So he's sitting there and he says, I've got the
14:05
people behind me. His number is even worse than
14:08
Matt's is right now. Actually, there may be some
14:18
competition there. I think Poppins, his numbers
14:23
were so bad. I think in the Reichstag, and there
14:26
was a lot of political maneuvering, but I think
14:29
you could count in the 600 -seat Reichstag, you
14:33
could count on two hands the number of people
14:36
backing him. A very unpopular chancellorship.
14:40
And basically everybody else in the room, the
14:43
people were not there. So Hitler, you know, he
14:45
sits down and he says, he reminds his wife, I'm
14:48
very happy to be here. And let's keep it. I'm
14:50
especially pleased that, you know, millions and
14:53
millions of Jews have been there. Then he says
14:55
something interesting, which is, I hope you will
15:00
bring to me the same trust that I bring to you.
15:06
which was the most ironic statement because everybody
15:10
in the room knew everybody hated Hitler. Hitler
15:15
hated all of these people. But then how does
15:18
he begin maneuvering? And keep in mind, this
15:20
is the beginning of this term that we use, Hitler's
15:24
seizure of power. In fact, Hitler finds himself
15:29
banging up against every constitutional guardrail
15:32
there. He says, He wants to call for new elections
15:38
to try to build on his mandate. Because the Nazis,
15:43
the most they ever had in an election was 37%.
15:47
It actually dropped down to 33%. What Hitler
15:50
wanted to do was to hold new elections and get
15:54
a 51 % mandate so the Nazis could move without
15:59
any coalition partners. But he, so he talks about
16:05
rewriting the election laws. Well, that gets
16:08
thrown out. He then wonders, you know, talking
16:11
about possible dissent if Hitler tries to ban
16:15
the Communist Party. And they said, you know,
16:18
there would be demonstrations in the street.
16:21
And then the suggestion is John Sittler, well,
16:23
couldn't we use the military to keep public order?
16:28
And this is von Blumberg, who is a, At that time,
16:33
a traditional, you know, Russian aristocrat general
16:40
in charge of the army, handpicked by Hindenburg.
16:44
And he says, Mr. Chancellor, essentially says,
16:47
Mr. Chancellor, the German army is trained to
16:52
defend the country from foreign enemies. It is
16:56
difficult to imagine a German soldier. being
17:02
asked to shoot German citizens on German streets.
17:06
A very powerful statement. Wow. Yeah. And so
17:11
Hitler's trying to maneuver to exert himself.
17:16
But what we really see in that first cabinet
17:18
meeting and what Hitler himself saw was how boxed
17:23
in he really was. um what follows is so hitler
17:28
comes out the next day and he issues a proclamation
17:32
and he basically says um okay we have entered
17:36
government but the fight is just beginning and
17:41
he basically declares war on his own government
17:45
So what was silly question? Yeah. Yeah. So I'm
17:48
just saying it was a rocky. It was it was not.
17:50
This is a rough start. Yeah. It's a rough start
17:52
to what we now call the Hitler seizure. Unexpectedly
17:58
rough start. I have to say silly question. What
18:01
was he wearing at his first meeting as the chancellor?
18:05
Was he still in his uniform or did he did he
18:12
accommodate the tradition? was wearing like black
18:14
tie or whatever they were wearing at that time
18:16
yeah i'm i'm a historian and not a fashion reporter
18:19
but what i have found actually interesting and
18:23
if somebody's attentive in reading the book um
18:27
you're gonna look at hitler's wardrobe choices
18:29
for every appearance he makes um it's a it's
18:32
a great question um because he does um hey this
18:37
is hitler with the brown suit you know jack boots
18:40
you know the swastika armband um hitler enters
18:45
the johnson in a dark suit with a discreet swastika
18:50
lapel pen um in in his lapel but but that's it
18:54
um and he but when you look at the me at what
18:59
he wears depending on the meeting um whether
19:03
it's with members of his cabinet whether it's
19:07
with industrialists, whether it's with reporters,
19:11
whether it's on public or private occasions.
19:16
There was a famous reporter at that time, a woman
19:19
reporter, but she said, you know, Hitler knows
19:21
his game. And he also, he understood the visuals
19:25
of it. So it's, you know, in the course of the
19:30
book, and I... I don't over alert it, but I actually
19:33
am very attentive to what Hitler's wearing on
19:36
different occasions because it is a signaling
19:39
which is there. The funniest one, if I can just
19:43
add this. Please. The first, the public was aware
19:48
of this. And the week after Hitler's appointed
19:53
chancellor, the President Hindenburg. holds an
19:58
annual this is you know early february holds
20:03
an annual gathering of of the core diplomatique
20:07
in berlin and so they decide to and his new chancellor
20:12
is going to attend this event and the exact date
20:18
of it is uncertain there's rumors around that
20:21
it may be postponed because hitler doesn't have
20:25
appropriate attire for this. And you see all
20:28
this speculation about what is actually, how
20:31
is this guy going to appear at this event? And
20:35
this is, once again, this is not Hitler that
20:37
we see from used real footage. The descriptions
20:41
of him is that he appears rather meek. He's standing
20:44
in the corner, sort of twiddling his thumbs or
20:49
holding his hands very awkwardly. Hindenburg
20:52
doesn't go out of his way to make his new change.
20:55
chancellor feel any more comfortable. But it's,
20:58
you know, these small details I think are important.
21:02
And this is going back, I mentioned reading the
21:04
newspapers. This gets filtered out through history.
21:07
But when you're reading the daily press, you're
21:10
able to pick up details that actually do reflect
21:14
on the moment and do reflect on the person. Boy,
21:17
that was a long answer to your question. What
21:19
was Hitler wearing at his first cabinet meeting?
21:22
But yeah, a dark suit. Amazing. I asked. So yeah,
21:27
super interesting stuff. You talked about the
21:31
conservatives that kind of loathe the man but
21:34
have to work with him. But who's his main opposition?
21:37
I don't know, in the Reichstag. And what are
21:39
they up to? Do they have a plan? Well, the...
21:43
You know, his main opposition, everybody hates
21:47
Hitler, except for the Nazis, center, right,
21:51
and left. The key person that he needs, and this
21:57
is someone who plays a role in the previous book,
22:00
Takeover, is Alfred Hugenbaum. who is a media
22:05
magnate. He's a former industrialist who's basically
22:09
created a right -wing media empire to advance
22:14
conservative causes. And he is absolutely vital
22:19
to Hitler's coalition because he gets Hitler
22:26
close to the... 51 % mark that allows him to
22:30
rule in the coalition government. But the two
22:33
men absolutely despise each other. And one reason
22:38
Hitler hates Hugenberg so much is because Hugenberg
22:44
doesn't need Hitler. He basically finances his
22:50
own political party, and he has his followers
22:55
greet him. with Heil Hugenwald. He uses a lot
23:01
of the extremist tropes that Hitler uses and
23:07
is basically competition, but he's in there as
23:10
well. And he is literally the one man who could
23:13
make or break the Hitler chancellorship. And
23:17
he's a difficult figure for Hitler to deal with,
23:21
but Hitler manages. And then ultimately outmaneuvers
23:27
Friedenberg. So Hitler's boxed in. Everybody
23:32
hates him, like you said, the conservatives,
23:34
the centrists, and obviously the left. How does
23:38
he proceed to advance his extreme agenda then?
23:43
Well, this is what, you know, I wouldn't recommend
23:46
reading this book, but Hitler's playbook was
23:50
his 800 page. two -volume tome of Mein Kampf,
23:55
in which Hitler pretty much, you know, he writes
23:58
this in prison in 1923, following the sale of
24:01
Beer Hall Butch. But it basically is a roadmap
24:05
to how to destroy democracy. And when you, I'm
24:11
not saying Hitler followed this page by page,
24:15
but all the essential elements of His plan are
24:20
in there. And his first point of attack are the
24:26
media. He goes after newspapers. Look, he's appointed
24:30
chancellor on a Monday. By Friday, he's trying
24:34
to suppress Fawvouts, which is the leading social
24:37
democratic newspaper. So his first point of attack
24:42
is the press. He then goes after... the civil
24:47
service, and in particular, police departments,
24:53
trying to replace police chiefs with people who
24:57
are either National Socialists or sympathetic
25:00
with the National Socialists. So he's sort of
25:03
going after some of these. And then along the
25:07
way, the next group that he targets, not trying
25:11
to destroy them, but co -opt them, are the industrialists.
25:15
But when you watch him in his first weeks in
25:17
office, he's going after the key, some of the
25:21
key pillars of a democratic society. And the
25:25
key one, and this aimed at the March 5th, 1933
25:29
elections, he wants to call for new elections
25:32
so that he can use with everything he has done
25:37
to suppress. democratic processes, not crush
25:41
them because the guardrails are still there.
25:43
It's still a functioning democracy. It's just
25:47
he's trying to restrict as much as possible and
25:50
maneuver the situation so he has in the March
25:55
5th Reichstag election the best outcome possible
25:59
for him. That's very odd since you said it yourself
26:03
that the votes were going down, not up, right?
26:08
They got 37 % in 32, and then in the next elections,
26:12
they got 33%. So what's Hitler's reasoning then?
26:16
Did he actually believe that if they call in
26:19
elections immediately, that he's going to get
26:21
51 % plus? No, well, three things here. The first
26:27
one is... He wanted to reconfigure the dynamic
26:31
so he would get more than 51%. One of his first
26:36
meetings that week with his Gauleiter, you know,
26:40
the heads of his party throughout the country.
26:45
They were all telling him that he would get more
26:48
than 51 % or 75%. They said, go for it. We will
26:53
get the votes. So it was Hitler's assumption
26:57
that they would do that well. Secondly, what
27:01
he wanted to do, as I mentioned, was to skew
27:06
the political landscape to best serve his purposes.
27:11
to achieve that 51%. I guess if you outlaw all
27:15
the papers that are against you, that helps,
27:17
right? Yeah. And what's interesting here is he
27:20
keeps banning papers. And this is you watch a
27:23
democracy function. Hitler issues essentially
27:26
an executive order banning a newspaper. The newspapers
27:30
sue the government and they go to court. Now,
27:34
the courts are still functioning. And in a lot
27:36
of these cases, they're... upholding the position
27:40
of the newspapers. And so the newspapers go back
27:43
into publication. So it's sort of this whack
27:46
-a -mole kind of scenario where Hitler's suppressing
27:50
this paper, they sue in court, then they reappear.
27:53
So it's this on again, off again, but it's this
27:56
battle. But the most important thing, and you
27:59
see a lot of this in the press, Hitler is clearly
28:03
touring the country, holding a lot of political
28:06
rallies. And what he says is, regardless, he
28:12
said, this will be an overwhelming victory for
28:15
a national socialist. Even if it isn't, I will
28:19
not step down as chancellor. So he says, I am
28:24
here to save the German nation. And regardless
28:28
of the election results, I will stay in office.
28:32
Sorry, I quickly have to interject, Professor.
28:35
This is absolutely gripping stuff. Because you
28:37
said before that Hindenburg was willing and able
28:42
to dismiss him as a chancellor at every turn.
28:46
However, Hitler is saying publicly, like you
28:48
just said, he's not going to step down even though
28:50
he might lose the election. How come Hindenburg
28:54
is not dismissing him ASAP when he hears that?
28:57
Well, that's a bigger question. The question
29:01
that you're asking or the comment that you made,
29:04
you know, the Weimar Constitution well enough
29:07
to know that Article 53 gives Hindenburg that
29:10
power. And with the newspapers come up and they
29:13
say, you know, why doesn't Hitler read the Constitution?
29:16
He said it isn't up to him whether he stays in
29:20
office or not. It's up to the president to decide
29:24
that and not Hitler. And, Jada, this is the interesting
29:29
piece. is that in the weeks before the election,
29:34
von Blomberg, the head of the military, is visiting
29:38
every military base in Germany. And I've read
29:43
this, you read the speeches, and what he is basically
29:47
saying is, it is the president is the commander
29:51
in chief of the military. We military are a non
29:57
-political organization. were there to support
30:01
the country and not any political party. So what
30:06
the setup is here, you know, Hitler is, as you
30:09
said, Hitler's running around the country saying,
30:11
I'm not chancellor and I'm not going anywhere.
30:18
Hindenburg is silent on all this. The constitution
30:21
speaks loud enough. The newspapers are there.
30:26
But also the military is clearly being signaled
30:30
that if there is some kind of confrontation,
30:34
they are there to serve the will of the president,
30:40
the commander -in -chief, and not the chancellor.
30:44
And it becomes counterfactual history if you
30:48
say, well, what would have happened? Personally,
30:51
I would say, had Hindenburg said... And the point
30:56
was, you know, if Hindenburg had tried to dismiss
31:00
Hitler or had dismissed Hitler, you know, there
31:04
were hundreds of thousands of stormtroopers who,
31:08
in theory, would have defended his chancellorship.
31:11
Look, these are a bunch of street thugs, maybe
31:16
with a pistol and sidearm. You've got a hundred.
31:19
It's limited by Versailles, but you have a hundred
31:23
thousand strong. trained, military, disciplined
31:27
military force. And they would have crushed any
31:32
attempt by Hitler's strong troopers to keep Hitler
31:37
in power. Professor, since everything hinges
31:40
on this moment, I'm afraid I'm going to have
31:42
to insist on my question and grill you further.
31:45
Why do you think Hindenburg doesn't dismiss Hitler
31:49
then as chancellor? That's the big question.
31:54
And there are multiple reasons. Once again, go
31:59
back to reading the press. I explore these various
32:04
explanations or potential explanations in my
32:10
book. Frankly, I am disappointed with, I think
32:14
we can all be disappointed with Hindenburg's
32:17
response. When he appoints Hitler chancellor,
32:20
the reason is, From a constitutional perspective,
32:25
and Hindenburg is there to uphold the constitution,
32:30
Hitler is head of the largest party. Even if
32:34
he's losing people, if he's got 33%, he should
32:38
be chancellor. So in some ways, Hindenburg didn't
32:43
have any alternative but to appoint Hitler chancellor.
32:46
The question is, though, why does he leave him
32:49
in office? There are various One scenario is
32:55
that he was senile by then and didn't know what
32:58
he was doing. Because he was really old, right?
33:01
Yeah, he was 84 years old at this point. So one
33:04
is that Hindenburg is senile. The old man doesn't
33:09
know what he's doing. He's being manipulated
33:12
by people. Well, when you look at meeting protocols
33:16
of Hindenburg in... private meetings outside
33:21
of public and not with Hitler, you're seeing,
33:24
I'm sorry, an incredibly clear mind. The man
33:28
definitely was not senile. The other point is
33:32
he was a monarchist at heart. He was a war hero
33:36
for his service to the Kaiser. He wrote in his
33:40
post -war memoirs, he was waiting for the day
33:43
when the Kaiser would return. So the other scenario
33:47
is Hindenburg put Hitler in there with the idea
33:51
that he would be a transition figure back to
33:55
a monarchy, which was somewhat delusional. But
33:59
that was one of the speculations, explanations
34:01
out there. The other one that gets much less
34:05
attention is the fact that there was a massive
34:10
financial scandal. in which it was called the
34:15
Eastern Aid, in which government monies were
34:19
being used to subsidize Prussian aristocrats,
34:25
some of whom were, and then who were taking vacations
34:30
on the Riviera, buying cars. I mean, it's just,
34:32
you know, using, it was outrageous. And the Reichstag,
34:36
this was about to blow up right before Hitler
34:40
was appointed chancellor. And one of the suggestions
34:44
is that Hitler said that the deal was, this isn't
34:49
Hitler and Hindenburg talking, but the deal was,
34:51
or the explanation was that, look, we will put
34:56
the lid back on this investigation. It will go
35:00
away if you appoint Chancellor Hitler. And by
35:04
God, Hitler comes into power. this eastern aid
35:09
investigation which was being driven by the social
35:11
democrats um is suppressed and goes away and
35:17
so one is that you know hindenburg was in fact
35:20
being blackmailed we do not know the reason um
35:24
where i i fault him i think the man was trying
35:29
to maintain the republic I maintained stability.
35:34
He cared most about the country. He'd sworn an
35:37
oath to uphold the Constitution. He was a man
35:40
of great honor and integrity. I think he was
35:44
trying to keep his word as difficult as it was.
35:47
Where we can really fault him, though, is his
35:51
tolerance. of Hitler's anti -Semitic actions.
35:57
Hindenburg himself was not anti -Semitic. He
36:01
was really believed in the German people as a
36:05
whole. He understood that Jews had served per
36:10
capita in equal numbers with equal heroism in
36:13
the war and should have reacted differently.
36:20
one and there was once again a lot of speculation
36:23
on this one was that um And Hindenburg, once
36:27
again, through the people around him, the news
36:31
was being filtered. So he was not fully aware
36:35
of everything that was going on in the country
36:38
because of his close advisors were filtering
36:41
south. And he spent a lot of time in Neudeck,
36:45
which was his estate in East Prussia. And one
36:48
commentator, one newspaper called it the smallest
36:51
concentration camp in Germany. Meaning they kept
36:56
Hindenburg bottled up there in an information
37:00
void and let Hitler run the country. But Hindenburg
37:05
should have stepped in. One can and should fault
37:09
him. He ultimately bears the final responsibility
37:13
for what happened. But the real explanation for
37:17
it, I go into all these different approaches
37:20
in the book. I'll give it away. I mean, to this
37:26
day, we don't know. But it was a complicated
37:31
scenario at that time. So although Hitler wants
37:36
this election, he doesn't get it, right? What
37:41
happens instead? Hitler wants the election. They
37:44
actually agree. No, they agree to hold the election.
37:48
It's scheduled for March 5th, 1933. The interesting
37:52
thing is, and this sounds, I'm in the United
37:58
States right now, and there's these big midterm
38:01
elections coming up. And everything, all the
38:06
rhetoric you're hearing about the upcoming midterm
38:09
elections. is virtually identical to what you
38:14
were hearing in advance of the march 5th elections
38:17
1933 in germany which was you had a monolithic
38:22
right -wing party um that eliminated all other
38:27
voices you had a fractured um left -wing movement
38:33
um and you know you're in america you have these
38:36
I think they're called, we have Democrats and
38:38
then Socialist Democrats, I think. And in Germany,
38:43
you had the Communists, you had the Social Democrats,
38:46
you had other splinter groups. There was a very
38:48
fractured opposition to the right wing. But the
38:53
most important thing was this current U .S. election
38:57
is being seen as a referendum on the current
39:01
administration. For the March 5th election, Hitler
39:05
was not on the ballot, but the election was a
39:09
referendum on his government. And Hitler wanted
39:14
this, as we've just discussed. Hitler was using
39:17
this as a setup to skew things in his favor with
39:23
the belief, because of what his Gauleiter told
39:26
him, that they would get in excess of 51%. But
39:33
ultimately, Hitler not on the ballot, but it's
39:36
a referendum on his government. And the other
39:42
thing, and this is most interesting, in American
39:44
politics, there's something called the October
39:46
surprise. All of our big elections are in November.
39:50
And always in October, there's always something
39:55
happens that changes it. And the other additional
39:58
piece is that. You know, in advance of the March
40:02
5th elections, you had an October surprise, but
40:06
it was in February. And that was the burning
40:08
of the Reichstag. You know, this is this arson
40:11
attack on, you know, the seat and symbol of parliamentary
40:16
democracy in the country. And everything changes
40:21
after that. Before reading your book, yeah, go
40:26
ahead, please. In Mrs. Hindenburg agrees, they
40:28
institute the famous emergency decrees that suspends
40:33
civil rights, that essentially bans the Communist
40:36
Party, and on and on and on, and really skews
40:40
things in favor of the National Socialist Women's
40:44
March in the upcoming election. So literally
40:47
a week before the elections, you have this massive
40:50
national crisis. Before reading your book, I
40:54
actually thought that, like most people probably,
40:56
that Hitler's march to a dictatorship was more
40:59
of a brutal show of force, like a military coup
41:01
dressed in some half -baked legal jargon. Your
41:04
book shows that wasn't the case at all. And what's
41:07
even more chilling is the fact that in 1930,
41:10
so three years before he became chancellor, Hitler
41:12
was called to the stand at a Supreme Court to
41:14
testify in a treason trial involving three junior
41:17
army officers who had... secretly joined the
41:20
nazi party while on the stand hitler was asked
41:23
by the judge directly whether he meant to dismantle
41:26
the weimar republic like he was saying only through
41:30
constitutional means to which um hitler replied
41:33
yavol and he did exactly that didn't he no no
41:38
coup it's an astonishing moment because here
41:41
you have hitler standing before the highest judicial
41:46
authority in the country and telling them, essentially
41:50
saying that he intends to establish a dictatorship,
41:56
which was an astonishing remark. But equally
41:59
astonishing was the judges, as you mentioned,
42:02
the right to say, so only through constitutional
42:04
means? And then Hitler goes, it's an amazing
42:09
admission because you could actually have arrested
42:12
Hitler on the spot for treason. And even newspapers
42:16
at the time were going, what is going on here?
42:20
This man is confessing to treason before the
42:24
constitutional court in public. But yeah, and
42:28
the subtitle of the book, it's not called Hitler's
42:34
seizure of power. It's not called the final weeks
42:38
of the Weimar Republic. It's 53 days. It's how
42:42
Hitler... dismantled a democracy and it is you
42:47
know it's at a granular level looking at how
42:50
you basically unbolt the constitutional guard
42:55
rails and step by step but i also showed isn't
42:58
easy and it took him 50 well 53 days is pretty
43:01
fast but you know you're also seeing a lot of
43:04
the obstacles that were there but the end result
43:08
two big questions yeah two big questions professor
43:11
um We can go through the entire eight weeks.
43:16
I really recommend the people to read the book.
43:20
You said that after the Reichstag fire, Hitler
43:24
suddenly got all of these emergency powers and
43:27
stuff enabled by Hindenburg. But what was the
43:32
infamous Enabling Act? And how was Hitler able
43:37
to pass a piece of legislation that in effect
43:39
was the death knell? Of the Weimar Republic.
43:42
Because despite of the Reichstag fire. Germany
43:46
wasn't in the middle of a terrible war. Or a
43:48
natural disaster. Or fighting for its survival.
43:51
In some other way. On top of that. The country
43:57
was actually recovering. Unemployment. Keep in
44:02
mind. We're talking about the aftershocks. Of
44:04
the huge crash of 1929. And the whole world melts
44:08
down. But by. early 1932 the german economy is
44:15
recovering as i say unemployment levels have
44:18
suddenly um gdp is starting to tick upward so
44:23
all the signs are are moving that direction um
44:28
and what hitler does as you said he um before
44:32
the first reichstag he he wants this election
44:36
because he wants a clear mandate, 51 % to create
44:42
his own government, a Nazi government rather
44:45
than a coalition government. In that election,
44:48
despite everything, they only get 44%. So in
44:52
fact, the democratic system is still functioning.
44:57
Even with all the suppression, the Social Democrats
45:00
only lose two seats. The Communist Party has
45:05
been banned, meaning their leaders are either
45:08
in prison or they're in hiding. In the previous
45:11
election, they had 100 votes. They still get
45:15
79. I mean, it's astonishing. They lost 19, 20
45:22
votes or so, but they keep four -fifths of...
45:26
Now, they're not represented in the Reichstag,
45:29
but this moment comes. So what Hitler, and this
45:32
was the whole setup, what Hitler wants to do
45:35
is to have the Reichstag formally give him, vote
45:41
him dictatorial powers for four years. At that
45:45
point, it was four years, but he basically wanted
45:48
to suspend all democratic processes and run the
45:52
country as a dictatorship. By the Constitution,
45:56
he needs two -thirds majority vote for this.
46:01
And this is this crucial, it's called the Enabling
46:04
Act, which enables Hitler to run the country
46:07
as a dictatorship. He needs two -thirds vote.
46:10
And Hitler wants, this is important for Hitler,
46:13
especially with Hindenburg, to be able to show,
46:17
you know, I am functioning within the parameters
46:21
of the Constitution. And this is a key moment.
46:25
It's the end of the 50s. This is the 53rd day.
46:29
And it is a Thursday, March 23rd. And this is
46:35
the moment when it's been said about the Weimar
46:38
Republic that it died twice. It was murdered
46:41
and it committed suicide. You know, the murder
46:44
we know, you know, Hitler was out to destroy
46:47
democracy since 23. The suicide is interesting
46:52
here. because you watch a democracy committing
46:56
suicide in real time the the for those people
47:01
speak german the entire event was recorded so
47:05
you can listen to it the transcripts are there
47:08
you can read it in real time but you have delegates
47:12
standing up And what you keep in mind, now the
47:18
numbers are down because of the suppression of
47:20
the communists. Rather than 600, you have basically
47:23
500 delegates there voting, 500 plus. But you
47:30
see them stand up and say, these are the centrist
47:34
party, centrist, conservative. Nazis are clear,
47:37
44%. Hitler gets his vote to make him dictator.
47:42
But the other centrist parties are there, and
47:45
maybe Hugenberg's people are going to go there.
47:49
But you see centrist conservative parties standing
47:53
up and saying, Chancellor Hitler, we are concerned
47:58
about how divisive your politics are for the
48:02
nation. We're concerned about due process. We're
48:07
concerned about rule of law. We see your government
48:11
as a threat to the very existence, continuance
48:16
of democracy in our country. But despite all
48:20
those concerns, here is my vote. And they're
48:24
astonishing admissions. You're watching, as I
48:28
say, a democracy committing suicide in real time.
48:32
The social Democrats as a bloc vote against it.
48:36
But in the end, Hitler doesn't get a two -thirds
48:39
majority. He gets a four -fifths majority vote.
48:44
And it is an overwhelming victory. And basically,
48:49
by early evening of that Thursday, March 23,
48:53
is really the end of the Weimar Republic. Wow,
48:58
how sinister. It is. And, you know, there are
49:01
a lot of and I and I that's where I pick the
49:04
date. You know, there's there are various views
49:06
of Hitler's first hundred days or Hitler's first
49:10
year in power. But it's basically at that moment
49:14
is when Germany ceases to exist as a constitutional
49:19
democracy. Were all of these centrists giving
49:23
Hitler the votes because they were already afraid?
49:28
For their safety or their lives? There was physical
49:32
threat, but there were two thoughts on this.
49:36
One is, look, this is the way... Because he's
49:40
basically a shark about to devour all of them,
49:43
so it makes no sense to vote for him. Yeah, yeah.
49:46
And the interesting thing is, in the archives,
49:49
and this is in Germany, there's astonishing materials
49:52
because there's one party that went in and they
49:56
had... they didn't they were divided on how they
50:00
should cast their vote but they had there were
50:03
three texts one was voting with the social democrats
50:08
opposing the enabling act the other was abstaining
50:13
a vote and the third was agreeing to, and with
50:19
all the explanations as abstaining. And the third
50:23
one was basically the scenario that I just painted
50:26
where we're giving you the vote. There were two
50:29
schools of thought here. One were, look, I want
50:33
to stay in office. I like being a Reichstag delegate.
50:38
So this is where everything is headed. We're
50:42
going with it. Some of the more thoughtful people
50:46
who cast their vote said, you know, if we oppose
50:49
Hitler and he demands power anyway, he's got
50:54
44 percent. He may not get his full two thirds,
51:00
but he'll have enough to declare victory and
51:03
establish himself as a dictatorship with Hindenburg's
51:07
approval, because as we talked about, Hindenburg
51:09
was oddly silent on all this. But the other logic
51:15
to it was, as long as Hitler, Hitler is now claimed
51:20
by the rules of democracy, by the Constitution.
51:23
If we give him his vote, this vote, he continues
51:31
to function within the constitutional norms,
51:36
within constitutional guardrails. So by doing
51:38
this, we can maybe... convince him that he should
51:43
continue to function within a democratic structure.
51:48
And it was, as I say, it's, you know, democracy
51:52
committing suicide before your eyes. But the
51:55
logic, but the interesting thing is, you see
51:58
the deeper logic behind each of those. How are
52:04
ordinary Germans taking all this? Again, The
52:07
most votes that the Nazis ever got at an election
52:09
was 37%. So even at their most triumphant, the
52:12
majority of the people, over 60%, voted against
52:16
them. Which makes me wonder, was there any mass
52:19
civil unrest accompanying the passing of the
52:23
Enabling Act? Please tell me at least my beloved
52:26
Berlin showed up in this regard. Oh, your beloved
52:28
Berlin. You can love Hitler. You can love Berlin
52:31
because Hitler hated Berlin. And, you know, it
52:35
was it was red Berlin. It was always red Berlin.
52:39
But this is, you know, you mentioned earlier
52:43
this issue of violence and use of violence. There
52:46
was a lot of street violence in the run up to
52:50
the elections and after. And it was basically.
52:54
communists fighting Nazis on the streets. And
52:59
there were street thugs on both sides. And what
53:02
we need to keep in mind is that the communists
53:05
were as committed to destroying the Weimar Republic
53:09
as the Nazis. It wasn't as if everybody on the
53:13
left was a good person. The Social Democrats,
53:16
the second largest party after the Nazis, were
53:20
for the Republic. But there was a lot of violence
53:25
on the streets. After the Reichstag fire and
53:28
these emergency decrees, then they basically
53:32
crushed all communist opposition. So after the
53:37
Reichstag fire, much of that street violence
53:44
had subsided. but there but this this looming
53:50
threat i think for the average german and whatever
53:53
the average german was maybe there there was
53:56
a sense of in terms of in in social democratic
54:00
circles there was absolute despair there was
54:03
dismay how can this be happening to our country
54:06
um but for the average german they had wearied
54:09
of this um and i think we're just willing to
54:14
acquiesce getting toward the end says i think
54:17
is an important thing to to note um in this march
54:21
5th election the nazis ended up with 44 which
54:26
was um it's considered Everyone looks at the
54:32
37 % in July and the 33 % in November of the
54:36
previous year because those were truly free elections.
54:40
There was questions about how free and open the
54:43
March 5th elections were. In fact, in terms of
54:47
voter turnout, it was the largest voter turnout
54:52
in the history of parliamentary elections in
54:56
Germany going back to the 1870s. So it was massive
55:01
voter fraud. As I mentioned to you, even the
55:05
communists, their leaders were in prison, but
55:11
they maintained four -fifths of the vote. What
55:14
tipped the scales, the additional, this thing
55:19
that made it the largest election in history,
55:21
there were two million new voters, almost all
55:26
of them young. And this is the scary part. voting
55:30
overwhelmingly national socialist. There was
55:35
this upsurge in young people just casting their
55:39
vote for Hitler and his party. So when you talk
55:47
about was there a general sentiment, I think
55:49
there was dismay, there was ecstasy, there was
55:54
fear. Clearly, the Jewish population was very
55:59
concerned. But across the board, I think when
56:04
we're talking about a democracy, I think the
56:07
majority of people are willing to just say, okay,
56:13
we've had all of this chaos. Let's give this
56:19
one a go. And Hitler's comment after, you know,
56:25
with the enabling it, when the vote, when they
56:28
were still debating it, his comment was fascinating
56:32
because what he said was, you've had, you Democrats
56:36
or social Democrats, people who believe in democracy,
56:40
you had, you know, 14 years or 13 years, whatever,
56:46
to let democracy deliver for the German people.
56:51
You have failed them at every count. Now give
56:55
me four years and see what you have. The interesting
57:01
thing is, and this is the cynical part of it,
57:03
this is where Hitler really understanding democracy.
57:06
They had spent, the Nazis had spent the previous
57:10
10 years. undermining democratic processes. When
57:14
they got into the Reichstag, they kept throwing
57:17
wrenches into legislative processes and gridlocking
57:21
it to show that when Hitler says democracy doesn't
57:25
work, well, it didn't work because of everything
57:28
they did to have it fail. So this was, in some
57:33
ways, a setup. But it also shows the vulnerability
57:36
of a democracy. I mean, you need the people.
57:39
What does democracy mean? It means your rule
57:42
of the people, by the people. And it is ultimately
57:47
up to the people to make that decision. Professor,
57:54
last question. We alluded to our own troubled
57:56
times at the beginning. By now, we're kind of
57:59
used to the US going a bit haywire. I'm sorry
58:01
to say, I know you're from there. I feel a bit
58:04
guilty, but I'm going to be honest. But what
58:06
hits even closer to home, at least for me, given
58:10
the fact that I'm European who used to live in
58:12
Germany, is the rise of AfD, or the Alternative
58:16
für Deutschland, a party whose many members openly
58:19
flirt with Nazism, something that would have
58:22
been... unimaginable to encounter anywhere in
58:25
Germany only a decade ago, and yet they have
58:27
just easily won the state elections in Saxony
58:30
on halt. How worried are you that the history
58:34
is repeating itself? You know, history never
58:38
repeats itself. There are resonances, there are
58:43
historic rhymes. With that said, and first let
58:47
me say this, I am as... Graded Germanophile as
58:53
there is. I love Germany. I love the people.
58:55
I love the culture. We have an apartment in Berlin.
59:01
When you do look at this election in Sachsen
59:08
-Anhalt, and everyone keeps saying it's a small
59:16
state, but it is a bellwether. I think it is
59:20
concerning. I'll go back and I'll quote Hitler,
59:23
meaning the government needs to meet the needs
59:30
of the average person. And I think when people
59:34
tilt toward AFDA, it's because they have the
59:38
sense that their needs, their basic needs are
59:42
not being met. Every politician does a post -election
59:49
analysis. And when the Social Democrats were
59:52
just in disfavor, saying, how could we have lost
59:54
this? We are the Social Democratic Party. We
59:58
were there for the workers. We were there for
1:00:00
the future. How is it that the very people that
1:00:04
we were supposed to be representing... have abandoned
1:00:09
us and fled into the Nazi camp. Now, the person
1:00:13
who asked this was a statistician named Emil
1:00:15
Gumbel, who was an associate of Albert Einstein.
1:00:20
He was one of the leading intellectuals in Germany
1:00:24
in terms of the sciences. He was also a professor.
1:00:28
So whenever a professor asks a question, they
1:00:32
always have an answer. It's only rhetorical.
1:00:35
But Gumbel had an answer to this. And he said
1:00:38
the problem was, and listen to what I'm quoting.
1:00:41
This is Gumbel. You can read this analysis in
1:00:44
German. But he says, we social Democrats, he's
1:00:50
writing this in what, 33, 34. He's saying we
1:00:52
social Democrats had focused too much on the
1:00:58
threats to democracy and the rule of law and
1:01:03
due process. and did not concern ourselves with
1:01:07
the alltagszogen of the average Sherman, or the
1:01:11
everyday needs. Housing, employment, inflation.
1:01:18
And I think in the same response, it goes back
1:01:22
to the Bill Clinton thing, it's the economy,
1:01:25
stupid. I think when people's needs are not being
1:01:30
met, They ultimately look for alternatives. That's
1:01:36
a long way of saying I'm very concerned. I'm
1:01:39
bordering on dismay. I hope the center's parties,
1:01:46
whether it's right or left, but I just, I desperately
1:01:52
wish that the center could address those needs
1:01:58
in a way that didn't make. the AfD elections
1:02:03
necessary. But I see it more as a symptom than
1:02:09
a cause. And I guess we'll see what happens.
1:02:14
Now, how your Berlin, I suspect your beloved
1:02:19
Berlin, my beloved Berlin will remain Berlin
1:02:23
bleibt Berlin. From your mouth to God's ears.
1:02:28
The very, very last thing, professor, since I
1:02:30
have you here and your answer can be brief, it
1:02:31
has to be about the US. I just wanted to ask
1:02:35
this. Trump, as grotesque and vile as he is,
1:02:38
I still believe is primarily a con man. Maybe
1:02:40
I'm wrong, but like a pickpocket serving his
1:02:42
malignant narcissism. I mean, the guy just oozes
1:02:45
stupidity. Now, he's obviously doing an incredible
1:02:47
amount of damage at home and globally. But what
1:02:50
actually scares me even more are the people.
1:02:52
around him, the tech bros, the billionaires and
1:02:55
the AI CEOs, people with outrageous power, who
1:02:59
are now quite openly claiming that democracy
1:03:01
is untenable and that the apocalypse is upon
1:03:04
us. I don't know if you've seen this, but in
1:03:07
his New York Times interview, Peter Thiel, the
1:03:09
venture capitalist, said he's not sure that he
1:03:11
wants the human race to survive. I just saw that
1:03:15
Naomi Klein, I believe, calls this end times
1:03:18
fascism. What's your analysis here? I'm a historian
1:03:22
and not a political commentator. I live in Europe,
1:03:26
not in the United States. What I would say, all
1:03:29
of these concerns are understandable. When you
1:03:34
read 53 Days, it's incredible the resonances
1:03:39
that you hear, including the doge purging of
1:03:45
the civil service. And across the board, what
1:03:50
I would come down to, and that's why I actually
1:03:53
wrote the book for the March 5th election. It
1:03:57
is about people deciding to go to the polls.
1:04:01
What I'm waiting to see is what happens on November
1:04:06
of this year with the midterm elections. Trump
1:04:09
is not on the ballot, but it is clearly seen
1:04:12
as a referendum on his administration. We all
1:04:17
see. everything that's going on. And depending
1:04:22
on your political perspective, you either like
1:04:24
what you see or you don't. But nothing is being
1:04:27
suppressed. I mean, it's all open. As you say,
1:04:30
the advisors around him have made themselves
1:04:32
explicitly clear in how they feel about democracy,
1:04:37
about America as it is, or where they want it
1:04:40
to go. And the American people see this and hear
1:04:42
this. And this coming November, The American
1:04:46
people will vote to decide whether or not they
1:04:51
like what they see. If they vote a certain way,
1:04:55
this will not be an America that I recognize.
1:04:59
I suspect it won't be an America that most of
1:05:04
the world has known for the last half century
1:05:07
or more. But it's ultimately going back to democracy.
1:05:12
It's what the people want. If I can end on a
1:05:17
positive note, and one that astonished me and
1:05:22
made me rethink everything I've thought about
1:05:26
the Weimar Republic, because I've always been
1:05:28
an apologist for the German people with Weimar,
1:05:32
because I said, look, you had the Treaty of Versailles.
1:05:36
You had the crash of 29. You had political chaos.
1:05:40
You had only 13 years of... practice with democracy.
1:05:47
But I looked at Hungary in this past election
1:05:51
last spring. Let's not look at March 5th, 1933.
1:05:58
Let's look at June in Hungary in 2026. Orban
1:06:02
was in power, what, for 15 years? Had 15 years
1:06:08
to compromise the courts? to suppress the opposition
1:06:11
press, to drive dissidents out of the country.
1:06:15
The Central European University is forced to
1:06:18
move. And yet, look how the Hungarian people
1:06:23
voted overwhelmingly and sent that message and
1:06:28
voted that government out of office. Had the
1:06:31
German people voted like that on March 5th, 1933,
1:06:36
there would not have been a continued Hitler
1:06:43
chancellorship, there would not have been a Third
1:06:46
Reich. There would not have been a Holocaust.
1:06:49
And let's look ahead to November. The American
1:06:53
people will decide. We don't know. Now, I promise
1:06:59
you, a day after the election, um every political
1:07:03
pundit is going to be telling is going to be
1:07:06
analyzing and telling you exactly why this outcome
1:07:11
was inevitable and they're going to forget about
1:07:14
all the noise and you know just as a closing
1:07:17
thing i thought this is what i do with the history
1:07:20
when i write the books is is to not view it from
1:07:24
with the the notion of of knowing what came and
1:07:29
explaining what came. I'm showing the chaos and
1:07:32
the confusion to show that this is not historical
1:07:36
inevitability. It's based on political contingency
1:07:39
and ultimately is up to the people in these so
1:07:44
-called democracies to go out and cast their
1:07:47
vote and make the decision. Professor Ryback,
1:07:54
thank you so much. People, get this book, 53
1:07:56
Days, How Hitler Dismantled a Democracy, available
1:07:59
in all fine bookstores everywhere. Thank you
1:08:02
very much. It was nice being there. Thank you
1:08:04
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