Latest / WOC and Allies: Business and Career Realtalk with Elaine Lou Cartas / 6. Charging Your Worth as a WOC and Being an Imperfect Ally with Erica Courdae and India Jackson

Transcript

6. Charging Your Worth as a WOC and Being an Imperfect Ally with Erica Courdae and India Jackson · WOC and Allies: Business and Career Realtalk with Elaine Lou Cartas

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, legacy maker.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_03: All of you are just in for a treat.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_03: I'm excited to have both of them are my friends.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_03: They're both DI consultants.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_03: I actually work with them.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_03: So I have Erica and India of pause on the play.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_03: And here's what we're talking about.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_03: Unpacking the word charging your worth as a woman of color and ally.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_03: And the importance of both women of color and allies working together.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_03: So just know we're going to get super real.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, like a little cliff notes version, Eric and India share how charging your worth means as black women whose ancestors were slaves.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_03: I share how charging your worth means as a first generation immigrant whose parents and grandparents immigrated here in California as farm workers.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_03: So yes, we get deep.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_03: And for my fellow women of color who love giving back, like me, you're going to love how we discuss pricing and how you can still give back and be accessible to your community.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_03: We also talk about cancel culture.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_03: So this is going to be a real one for all of you.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_03: Just make sure you're going to go grab your coffee, tea, and or boba and let's call your dreams to create your legacy.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_03: As a first-generation immigrant, I know how much pressure there is from our family and society to have a safe and secure life.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_03: But in the Call Your Dreams Podcast, I'm here to challenge you to be your best self by creating a business and career that is sustainable, abundant, and enriching without playing by other people's roles.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_03: We'll have real talk on the deep inner work to create lasting transformation and the tactical strategies to create a profitable business and career.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_03: We both know you have a vision, roots you're proud of, and a legacy to create.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: Now it's time to do things your way on your own terms.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_03: So let's get started.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_03: Now grab your coffee, tea, andor boba, and let's call your dreams to create your legacy.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome, both of you.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you for having us.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_03: So we were fighting, obviously virtually, whether or not this is going to be explicit.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_03: So fair warning, mothers, fathers, parents out there, you may want to just like put your headphones on unless you don't mind your children hearing some explicit words, because the theme of this episode is why women of color and allies should charge their worth and why we need to work with allies.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I've been wanting to have this these conversations, and I couldn't think of a better pair than both Indy and Erica.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_03: So welcome both of you.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_03: And would love for both of you to share what both of you do.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I say DI consultants, but you and I, we've had dinner together.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_03: I've met up with both of you, and everyone's a DI consultant, but you guys are like the real deal.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: So if you could share what you do, how what makes your work unique?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_03: So whoever wants to share.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'll let Erica start.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: I can do that.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I am Erica Corday.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: I am a coach and consultant.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: DEI is my focus, diversity, equity, and inclusion.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: Technically, I am the DEI half of Pause on the Play as Indy and I are co-founders.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: India's branding invisibility that is done through the lens of DEI is where that intersects with what she does.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: I support leaders, individuals.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: I basically support humans that are like, I want to figure out how to be better.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that may be people that identify as black, brown, or of some shade of color, or those that are trying to navigate what it feels like and what the acts are that really do put them in a place to be an imperfect ally.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: Imperfect allies.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure we're gonna dig into that.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, I'm India, and you know, my side of what we do is more of the branding invisibility work.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I truly enjoy really getting to the heart of like what is branding and visibility, but it's doing it in a way that is aligning with one's brand values and with one's company values and making sure that the things that the world gets to see is with an integrity of the intention and it's the roadmap to where a brand wants to go and not necessarily reflection of where it was.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_03: I wish we had like five hours for our interview, but we don't.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_03: Both of you have been doing this work since 2018, and I love that both of you have your different strengths.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_03: How did you guys both decide to do the work together?
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the interesting thing is, is everything that I've done led me to the point of beginning to move into coaching and consulting uh from a very conscious place.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of it was done previously, and I just didn't realize that that what I was doing, that was what I was doing.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't realize that I was coaching people.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't realize that I was consulting people of, you know, what matters to you and whether or not you're actually showcasing that, or are you putting that away to make yourself more palatable for others?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: And Andy and I have actually been like, we're actually friends in real life.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is not just like the we take pictures, but we don't really like each other thing.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're actually friends and have been for almost 15 years.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so for us, it's been a natural progression of the different ways that we've worked together, that as we've continued to evolve and have more and more ways that our work intersects, that we really just hit this point of like, hey, this additional thing that we've realized that we are both extremely passionate about and is showing up in this iteration, this needs to happen.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: And we had no idea where the world was going and how timely it was, you know, previously during and even now as we're figuring out what's next uh post-2020.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I found that uh in us doing the work that we do uh separately, that there was something missing.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I was witnessing businesses that were changing up their public image and really showing the truth of who they are or having values put in place that maybe they didn't have before, revisiting things like their website, their photos, who they're marketing themselves to.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: And yet maybe they were missing some of the internal pieces of how does this change our company culture as far as days off?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: And uh how does this change, you know, what holidays people get, or what other components we have, like give back components, or are we offering award seats and things like that?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I really realized there was this need for the side of what Erica does simultaneously happening with what the public sees.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and on Erica's side, I mean, you definitely were doing that type of work with people, revisiting company policies and hiring announcements and things like that.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, when the public image hadn't also matched these changes happening on the back end, you would have people applying for positions within a company that is talking about inclusion or um diversity or things like that.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: But then maybe what they were seeing on social media or the website didn't feel like it lined up.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't truly aligned.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_03: And both of you have been doing this work since 2018.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_03: So it's not that 2020 happened.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_03: You're like, oh, I'm gonna do it because this is an opportunity.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um but just what what you were saying, Erica, I mean, you've been doing it even before 2018, even before realizing, oh, this is actually important work.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_03: So there's so much goodness.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_03: And I on top of the questions I sent you guys prior to this podcast interview, I just have even more as I'm writing it down in my notebook.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_03: But I want to get to it, where I'm a business coach for women of color and allies.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_03: And obviously, we talk about pricing and structure.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_03: So I would love for you to answer this question why should women of color charge their worth?
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I also want to share kind of a couple of stories.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm not gonna be calling out anyone, I'm gonna keep names anonymous, but I've been in business.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_03: So I know you started in 2018, I started my business 2017.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_03: And it's fascinating to see fellow women of color come up to me and say, Well, if you're a coach for women of color, why do you charge so much?
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_03: I've even had someone come into one of my events and ask me that.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_03: My response to her was, Thank you so much for asking that question.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_03: And because I am a CEO and I do have a team who I pay, I believe in paying them their worth.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_03: They're not volunteers, as well as paying myself.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_03: So would love to get your thoughts on this, and maybe I'm getting a little coaching from both of you as well, on why should women of color charge their worth?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think in general, Eric and I have both had a lot of experiences in our lives and in our businesses around pricing, the businesses we own today, and also businesses that we own before the businesses we've owned today.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll say for me, pricing is something that uh as I approached it and starting what was a photography business back in 2008 that also covered like uh branding shoots and things like that as well, and creative direction.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I never really knew what to charge.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like uh coming from a background where my family weren't business owners, I didn't know other business owners when I first got started, and my college program to do what I was doing didn't cover any business classes.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: You're just kind of guessing.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: You really just don't know where to start.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I would see like a lot of things out there about pricing.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I also have to take into account that I am a woman and I'm a black woman for anyone who's not visually seeing me right now.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: And that played into things.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: I had consistently heard the phrase to charge your worth.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: And it for some reason just never really resonated with me in a way that made me charge more.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: I was definitely underpricing and undervaluing myself for many, many years, working with major companies that pay people a lot of money to do the same things that I was doing.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I was introduced to two women who really inspired me and kind of helped me dig into some things for myself about that phrase and why maybe it didn't resonate with me.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_02: One was Karen Graves, she's a business coach that specifically looks at pricing for women of color, and Jaquette Timmins, who's a financial behaviorist, that Erica and I share as a common connection.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: And they both presented the idea that when you look at charging and worth being in the same sentence, and you put that in the context of people of color, you have to recognize that many times you're asking someone of color to attach their worth to a dollar amount.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_03: That is so good and eye-opening.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_03: I am taking notes.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_03: Continue.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so for me, it really allowed me to look at the potential ancestral trauma of slavery and that I had ancestors who literally were bought and sold for less than I was asking for a photo shoot.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: And how does that play into my mindset about what I charge?
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, how does that play into my identity of my worth as a human being when I'm saying that I'm going to charge my worth?
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm worth so much more than anyone could ever pay as a human.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so as I began to kind of unpack these things, I had to really kind of sort through like my life, my family and ancestral history, and see how all of these things came into play into what I charge and how I attach that to something and kind of find a way to flip it as well.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think the biggest thing that comes up for me whenever we talk about what we charge and whether or not it is or is not connected to our worth is we're not addressing if there's limiting beliefs coming up.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: We're not addressing what our value is that we hold of ourselves.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, do I think this about myself?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: Do I not think this about myself?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: And we are then trying to, through our capitalistic lens, connect it to money.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that puts us in a place to where there are all these lies about who has money, who doesn't, who can afford things, who can't.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it all gets convoluted in this way.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then we are distilled down to charge your worth.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: Why don't you charge your worth?
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: Why would you expect me to pay more?
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Black women can't pay that.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: We have all these limiting beliefs that come up to the party that are all itty bitty shitty committee, and they're lies.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: None of them are accurate.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't allow us to get to the root of it of what do I want?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: What do I need?
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then being able to just really be like, okay, well, what are my needs even being met?
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because if we're talking about charging my worth, okay, well, we can't have that conversation until we start being honest about what are my needs?
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: And we have to be honest there first.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of us aren't giving ourselves the space to want or need.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a rabbit hole in itself.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_03: There was huge takeaways, right?
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's learning that ancestral trauma, realizing charging worth, is also kind of putting a dollar amount and then putting into the capitalism.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I really love that question that you ended with, Erica, is like, what do you actually need?
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_03: What do you need in terms of paying for rent or your mortgage and the food that you need?
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_03: What do you need to have the luxury of just not working on the weekends?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_03: Or if you want a two or three-day work week, whatever it is.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_03: So, with that being said, I mean, ever since 2020 happened and everyone's being more mindful and educating themselves with capitalism, how do you find how do what's advice do you have to find that balance of I know I want to charge this high amount because I know what I need to have the life I want, like the lifestyle I want?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm not saying lifestyle in terms of I'm gonna have five private jets, but hey, if that's a goal for yours, that's cool too, you know?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_03: So how do you balance that, but also continue to giving back?
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_03: Because the unfortunate thing that I've seen a lot of women of color do as well is they're not charging the amount they need, as you were saying, Erica, where it's so much emotional labor and output out that it's getting them burnt out and not be human.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you balance both of it?
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think there's a few things in what you said.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: And part of it is having to be brutally scathingly honest with yourself about what you're doing that has a value attached to it because we are doing a lot of things that we're not attaching value to that we should be compensated for.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: Emotional labor, particularly in the coaching space, is a huge one.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll use myself as the example.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: It takes time for me to be able to work through where my boundaries are if somebody's pushing and how I'm gonna respond, because I know I like to give.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so if I begin to feel myself want to overgive, I'm like, wait, wait, wait, what's what's going on here?
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because I used to have a story of, well, I'm just talking.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: And the reality is I get paid to talk.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: You want what's in my brain, you want my context, you want more than what you're gonna get from a Google search, and that costs money.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so therefore, I have to be honest with myself of where am I laboring and where have I chosen to work for free and where am I not okay with that?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: So that has to happen.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: But I also think that you know, when we're in this place of having to really just kind of circle back to this is, you know, this is what I want to charge, or you know, this is what the worth is, you have to be cognizant of what you're giving, what you want to be compensated with, but also understanding that things like burnout show up and there's no compensation that's gonna pay you for being in burnout.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to acknowledge where your boundaries are of like, yeah, this is great, you're gonna pay me.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that's more than I have to give for you.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because I have to keep for myself.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: Too often, and I speak through the lens of a black woman, too often, as a black woman, like we are taught to give even to our own deficit.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so then I have nothing.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: I can't support anybody that way.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: I can't support myself, I can't support my children, I can't support those that I value outside of work, let alone do the work that I do.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: And notice I put the work last.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: I am not what I do, I am who I am.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: And those are the things that you have to have awareness of when you think about charging, and I'm using air quotes for those that can't see what I'm worth because the reality is you can't afford me.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's the fact that I've lost.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_02: Just like that's the flip that I'm talking about.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: And what came up for me is also looking at like the tangible side of charging and giving and what are people actually paying for it.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: Erica, you beautifully covered the emotional and labor side, but there's also that financial piece of what do you need?
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: And that financial piece for me was like what changed a lot in how I approach business and how I support others, um, is recognizing that I didn't want to just be here to make money for myself.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: I do enjoy giving.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: And part of my giving means giving back to my community.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: It means offering award seats for people who may not be able to access something in the same way.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: It includes financial equity as a part of that and leaving behind a legacy I can be proud of.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: And that requires money.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I had an amazing friend that laid this out very simply in that when we talk about give backs and donating, whether it's time or money, any of these things, we often talk about it from a place of it taking away from what we have, which to me signals you have not accurately charged.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because you should be pricing to include your generosity in your give backs.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: That should not be the, oh yeah.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: So this 2,000 is what I need to cover expenses in myself.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: And now I'm trying to figure out how to give back.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna do it, but I'm not able to do it with a gleeful heart because I know that I'm actually putting myself at a deficit.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, then we need to refigure these numbers from a tangible standpoint.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I think part of that is also being really clear on your values before you ever decide to lay out any products, any services, any offering and putting that price.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: Because if you know your values and you know what your goals are as a human, as well as your goals as a company or a brand, then most likely that includes some type of social impact, whether that's environmental friendliness or supporting the animals or whatever it is that you care about.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so you've already built the foundation of knowing these things and you can factor that in.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and maybe that is financially supporting some things, but it also might mean your time.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: And that time requires space for time off.
• 21:02
  unknown: Right.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: Figure it out on the front end.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_03: When um that one person came to my event and she was asking, why do you charge so much?
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_03: You know, how does this serve women of color?
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, I really appreciate I gave her so many reasons that I was I was very calm when I was talking to her that I was angry after the event.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_03: But I told her, well, one of the reasons why I also charge this amount is because I can give back and do this free event that you are in.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_03: This is my give back.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_03: So I appreciate my clients paying me this amount.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_03: And also, I'm part of Pause on the Play community, where both Indy and Erica ran and I had a conversation with them where I'm even shifting my business, where I'm going from doing free monthly events to now doing this podcast, which I know both of you, both of you have your own podcast.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_03: And sure, it takes time, but we also have our own podcast managers that we that we pay.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: And it is not cheap, let me just say.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_03: But all three of us here are passionate doing it.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_03: And the reason why I've decided to shift this way is because it actually saves me more energy.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_03: Sure, I'm spending output from doing an event, but it saves me energy.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I also know it's more accessible in terms of geographic location.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_03: Anyone has access to it.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_03: But I, all three of us, have a podcast because we are charging the amount we need to from clients to do the give back.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_03: And also coming from the nonprofit sector, I was around such wealthy folks, like the owners of Trader Joe's.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_03: And they gave back because they had so much money to give back.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_03: That's something people are forgetting that when you have more wealth, you can't give back.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_03: Example is Obra, for example, and just other high net worth folks.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: When you think about give back though, again, you know, and I think it's come up a few times, and part of it is definitely money.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's definitely one resource.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: But the reality is that we look at our podcast as a part of our give back because this is a place where people are taking in free content.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's not free for us, but it's free for them.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: This is a place where they're receiving value.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: And whenever you think about things like, you know, what are what is someone giving back, or uh the comment that the person made to you at your event of why do you charge so much?
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: Terms like that are subjective.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: So what is so much, what is enough, what is too much, what is not enough is very subjective.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it can change for any of us at any given moment.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that it's also challenging to have that conversation as if there's only one lens and one particular way of normalizing it.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think it goes beyond that.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and getting to the tangible nitty-gritty of that, right?
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: To lay it out for anyone who may not have a podcast or do in-person events.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: In-person events is definitely not something that we focused on with pause and the play, but it has been a podcast.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: You're looking at, you know, several hours a week that go into being able to plan out episodes, what value we're going to give in that episode.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: So a listener or a reader of our articles has a takeaway that's going to help them in their life or in their business or in their workplace.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so it's the planning of the content, it's the recording of the content, it's paying for our team that turns this audio content into also written articles.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's the editing of the episodes to bring out the best in every guest and remove little things like uh somebody opening the door or whatever.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, those things add up.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: And for those that are not familiar, like you could be looking at anywhere between$500 and about$3,000 a month to produce a weekly podcast.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: Elaine, I'm sure you can speak to what it costs to put on an in-person event.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_03: It well, my first event that I did ever, and it was free, by the way.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_03: It cost me$10K and I didn't have it.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_03: I just put it on a credit card.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, I believe the universe is just gonna bring it back.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_03: And going back to what you're saying in terms of values, the reason why I decided not to do free monthly events, and mind you, I don't regret it.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_03: It helped build me up.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_03: And and I was just understanding the emotional labor and how I felt energetically.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, this no longer feels even to me.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_03: I'm no longer excited.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that that's so important, um, even for us when I think about the podcasting space of ensuring that when we show up for our readers and our listeners, that we're showing up with a clear intention of giving and a clear intention of what they can learn or take away to enhance their lives.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: And that requires the space to take care of ourselves.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: That requires being able to invest in the support that we have through our podcast production team, because there was a time where we were doing everything ourselves, and it definitely did start to transition into feeling like this was taking a lot from us for our give back and really just having the space to get super intentional and ask our community members and our podcast listeners what do they need?
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: Because it truly is an act of giving for us.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_03: I love that you said clear intention.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_03: I know not everyone has podcasts, but as you know, everyone has social media.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm so over it because of a pandemic, we've been in front of our screens, right?
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_03: Which is also a reason why I want to do podcasts.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_03: But for listeners out there, what advice would you have for them?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think the audience and everyone's community is getting smarter because you can just tell when people are just churning content as opposed to coming with intention.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I really am being more mindful and more intentional of anything I put out, whether it's a podcast, an email, social media.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_03: But what advice would you have for others out there where they need to go pause and be like, wait, am I really doing this based off of values?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_03: Or yeah, anything you have to say to that?
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: Erica has a face that most people don't know.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_03: Erica was asking, are you?
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_03: I know Erica was saying, are you gonna have the video on?
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, Yeah, I need the video on because I need to see if we're gonna have your reaction and I know it's a call on you.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_03: So go ahead, Erica.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the reality is I think I feel like your question, your question is is a prelude to everything.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's just too many people making decisions that are about their podcasts, about their businesses, about their life, about their give back, about any of these things, where they spend their money and how they vote with their dollars.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: And they're not connecting it with their values and what matters to them and the impact that they want to make.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, it's more about how is that one more thing that you haven't paused long enough to get clear and intentional about?
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: And if really it's just that you didn't get clear and intentional about your values yet in order to get to the next step, well, then you need to go back and figure that out first.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: There's just too much of this push to do the next thing, be the next thing, put out the next fill in the blank.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, what fire are we rushing to?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: What is so urgent about this?
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: What are you trying to do with this push for something that has no roots?
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: It has no values, it has no home, it has no base.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: What are we doing?
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: Stop doing things without a purpose.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I'll add to that like values is so overused, right?
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: And it's so abstract at this point because it's such a hot topic that everyone's talking about.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: But if your values are not rooted, yeah, if your values are not rooted in what you will do and won't do because of that value, then you need to revisit your values.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: A big part of our explicit masterclass is not just saying, I value this word or this topic or this thing, but okay, now how are we going to back that up with actions?
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: What will our team members do if you have a team?
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: And what won't they do because you said you value that?
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: What will you do or not do in your life and in your brand because of this value?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: And when you haven't laid that out, values can become this abstract idea that it's almost impossible to bake into your actions and your intentions because you don't know where you're going with it.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: All that.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_03: I want to give a personal example.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I haven't announced it yet.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_03: So I'll keep it broad.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_03: But I mean, like I said earlier, I decided to stop doing my free events.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_03: And both of you are mentioning being pausing and being really intentional.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_03: So I tested it for myself.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_03: So for anyone where like, what I've been doing up till now, I'm not sure if I should keep doing it because I'm not happy.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: So it doesn't mean you have to end it, but you could test it a little bit.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_03: So I went from doing free monthly events to bi-monthly, then I did it quarterly.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_03: And then my last event in December, it's interesting because I think the only algorithm you should focus on is your energy.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_03: So in December, when I had my last free event, there was only eight people who showed up, showed up, usually have 20 to 30.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_03: And afterwards, I just had to be honest with myself.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not having fun with this.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm pretty sure me promoting it, people could feel that energy.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_03: So this needs to stop.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_03: So it wasn't a decision that like it was quick.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_03: It took me a year to do it.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_03: And it's unfortunate because I feel like social media is like high school, like a high school yearbook.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_03: Like you're looking at the popular kids and the big people, the big names, know each other with a following count.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_03: And this past year, I'm like, what can I delete?
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I've actually decided to get rid of one of my programs and focus on another one instead.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, oh, but I birthed this.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_03: And it's really hard.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's really hard to realize the business model I've created, grateful for it, but it no longer aligns with me.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_03: So, which is great because I feel like there it's happening with a lot of people.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_03: I've I've noticed that I am now the business coach helping people purposely pivot.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I feel like the pandemic has given us the gift where we're being aware I don't like this.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_03: What do I do?
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_03: So, what advice do you have for folks who are like, I do want to change, but hold on, what do I do first?
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_03: What are steps I can do?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, one of the key things that stands out to me that you said that I want to reflect back to you is the energy, but you also mentioned alignment.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: And the advice that I would give is if your energy doesn't feel as good anymore, showing up for something, to ask yourself, might there be a misalignment here?
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: Is this no longer aligned?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, one of the things that I've noticed about you, Elaine, and our time getting to know each other and becoming friends is that it's so important for you to be accessible as well as demonstrating what it can look like, what a business can be like to charge premium pricing and offer high quality.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: Quality and accessibility, I feel like, um, are things that I've noticed from you from day one.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so in my mind, I just wonder if some of what may have been coming up and maybe coming up for other people, is when you're in a place where you're having to feel like you're constantly churning out something, is do you feel like the quality starts to suffer out of I need to get this done because it's on the calendar and it's on the calendar at a frequency that might not be sustainable anymore based on where your energy is.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: And then that accessibility standpoint, I think, is a big reflection of moving from in-person events at a specific location to transitioning saying, but my true intention is to be accessible to many and for them to get this information, whether they can afford to work with me or not.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_02: And that podcast offers that access.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: So my coach thought on this is that when we have products or services or events that are no longer the highest level of service to us or our clients at that moment.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: One of the first things that you can do to help to kind of ease the uh the sting of it is to not consider it your baby.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because we put this strong emotional attachment on it.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then we have a hard time because we feel like we don't throw the baby away.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: We don't let am I a bad parent?
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: What does this mean about me?
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I think when we can kind of shift that connection, or what can honestly at some point feel like a certain amount of codependency of this is my identity and what happens when I let it go.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like we want to kind of shift that piece a little bit.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then if you do kind of have that thought in your head of it being a child, then you have to remember that children grow up.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: They are not who we have decided they have to be.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: So good.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: They become who they need to be.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so as they grow and they evolve and they move farther away from what we in our heads have decided they are, and more into who they actually are.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: The reality is that where you're going could make perfect sense of like, well, of course you started there, and this is what it is now.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's no longer a three-year-old, it's now a 17-year-old that has personality, it has thoughts, it has feelings, it has needs, and it wants to communicate very differently.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so we have to do that, but we have to understand at some point we have to release it.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: We cannot have codependent relationships with our businesses in ways that we also keep our own identity from being able to evolve.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because what does that mean about me?
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_03: You're like coaching right now is like, oh, I know, work and I know that a lot of work with Indian Erica.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_03: I hope everyone's feeling that way.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, because I know that these are common things and we don't think about it.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really challenging to see your stuff when you're in it.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so when we allow ourselves to kind of have these conversations and these opportunities to take in these perspectives from others, it's like, oh, I didn't think about it that way.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't allow myself to go there.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: And being able to allow yourself to reconsider whatever has been your normal is a really powerful part of how you are being an ally to yourself.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because when I talk about imperfect allyship, so often it's about out there and other people and color and race and gender.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, but are you an ally to yourself at all?
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because you have to start here.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: We don't take care of ourselves well enough.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so are you imperfectly being an ally for yourself and what you need to be able to feel like, yeah, I get me.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you don't get you, nobody else will.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: And y'all are funny.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just like, I feel like I'm at church and I'm like getting the best sermon right now, continuing.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: I just feel like the creative in me coming from that background, you know, as we're winding it back and saying, why did you start a business in the first place?
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think that so many of us may have come from corporate.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: We may have come from so many other backgrounds of working with or for other people.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: And when you decide to go off and create your own entity, your own brand, you get to decide what you want that to look like.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: You get to decide what you want it to feel like, what you want your day in the life of the business to be.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's so important to reconnect with that and to hold space for the possibilities.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't think anyone goes into business to recreate their own previous work hell.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so you get to decide to set your days off before you ever allow a client to be on your schedule.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_02: You get to decide how much you want to work, how much you want to get paid for it, how much joy or laughter or jokes or funny gifts you want to bring into your company.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't want that to be lost in this conversation that I do think part of that pause is reconnecting with that and breaking up with the system that you may have come from in your past work to create a better and more improved and more equitable system today.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_03: Wait, is that why you guys are called pause on the play?
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_03: Is that why?
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: It all goes together well, doesn't it?
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: Let's tercey amen.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: So, yes.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_03: What I wanted to also ask is, you know, as women of color or POC who are listening in this episode also helps imperfect allies, as Erica has defined it earlier.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I feel like I'm bashing social media, but as all of you know, it's like a cancel culture on social media.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_03: When someone writes something and it may come from good intention, then people will attack.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes we have allies or friends who may share something that's inappropriate and you want to give them feedback.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_03: What advice would you have?
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I'll even share my story.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_03: When the pandemic came out, I have a friend who's an ally, but she put a joke out that made fun of Asians.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_03: It just didn't come off right.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_03: And it was on Facebook.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_03: And instead of commenting, yelling at her, I just texted her, screenshot it, like, hey, I know you posted this, but this really comes off wrong.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_03: And she was like, oh my God, I didn't realize it.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_03: I'm deleting this.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_03: So any advice, yeah, any advice that you would have for that.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: Part of the challenge that I have with the concept of cancel culture is I think that there is uh there is a part of it that does like to immediately jump to you have done something wrong.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so therefore you are trash and you must be thrown out.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: And at the same time, I've also witnessed people utilize the term cancel culture when really what's happening is a call for accountability.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so there is a place of having to acknowledge that, hey, you know, people do make mistakes.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: Let's not allow this person, let's not allow them this place of like, I am this one thing that I've done.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: In this one blip, in this one moment, I am this for the rest of my life, because that is now giving them an identity.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it's a scarlet letter, so to speak.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: And that means that we don't believe in redemption, which is not what imperfect allyship is.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: However, intent does not erase impact.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so where cancel culture is being branded wrongly is when people believe that my intent is enough that you should now ignore how you feel or what happened because of what was done.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it really is a call for a more dynamic conversation around it and it not being like this is not, it's not nuanced to just immediately say that it is or isn't cancel culture, something goes wrong.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: And when people do that, I'm like, that's not really what's happening.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's a little more to it than that.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: But we also have to understand that if we make a misstep or we make a mistake, it's what happens next.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, yes, you want to be redeemed, but what have you done from a a place of you know redemption and from a place of uh restorativeness of what what needs to happen now because this moment happened, and it was more involved than just my own feelings because it's that's where the nuance I think is getting lost.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's multiple people here when stuff is done publicly, you know, we can't control what happens when we release it into the wild.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's just there's there's nuance that's being lost there.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's such an important distinction of you know, cancel culture and accountability, and where is that line, you know?
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_03: We I mean we have two current situations happening publicly, right?
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_03: We kind of talked about it.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_03: One is Joe Rogan with Spotify, and second, I mean, when we're recording this, it's in the middle of the Olympics, and there is the doping issue with Camila like still doing her event, but then Shikari Richardson, who is black, couldn't do hers and was banned.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: And neither one is about cancel culture.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: Both of those are about shitty systems of oppression that do not favor people that don't look like the people that came out winners in the end of those situations.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because regardless of where this 15-year-old placed or not, because I think it was she was in fourth place, she has an opportunity to come back again.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: Jakari was not given that, which shows that she was not given the opportunity for redemption.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: The whole entire thing with Spotify is not about cancel culture.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: That is about a lack of boundaries, a lack of clarity, a lack of what happens when a boundary is being violated, and a lack of understanding of what is and is not okay in a space and things being really gray and not dealt with until they had to be.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: And the lie that there wasn't clarity of the questionable nature of what was happening.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, we didn't know that this was happening.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: You a lie.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: $100 million later, you know.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: But you chose not to deal with it.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you choose money.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so when you don't deal with things until you have to, you made a clear decision.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: But cancel culture would mean, oh, we don't like what you did.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: And the reality is that the way that Brene Brown stepped in, she basically was acknowledging, hey, I'm not trying to cancel this.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: I actually want to have a conversation about what's going on before I make any types of decisions.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: And at the end of the day, there's a place to where people of color and black people uh specifically, because again, I got to talk through the lens I come through.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a black woman.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Through and through.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: We have to make our own decisions around what we choose to cancel or no longer participate in and where we choose to stay, even if we don't agree with it, because we want to, from a place of being intrapral, change what's happening.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: We want to have more people that look like us to be able to be a part of it.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: We want to shift the dynamics that are happening.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because if everybody runs and it just turns into, you know, the misinformation space, how does that help?
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think that goes back to what you were saying, Erica, about it's not the mistakes that are made, it's what you do with it.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_02: Part of being an imperfect ally is being able to acknowledge that mistakes were made and to try to correct the mistakes.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_02: But I also think that if you're not the person that made the mistake and you're the person witnessing it, is asking yourself, is your allyship showing up in a place of pointing the finger at someone's identity and calling them, you're a bad whatever, or you're a racist, right?
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's identity versus saying this specific behavior was racist, or this specific behavior was harmful.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_02: And let's figure out what to do about it.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just speaking for myself as a Black woman, but I've seen so much over the last few years where people are calling out and canceling companies and brands and businesses and individuals on social media.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: But nowhere in the mix of that is a conversation happening about here's what you can do to actually be supportive.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_02: And at the end of the day, like if you're saying you want to support people of color, but that conversation never happens, then we're just all playing into the system of oppression we were given by fighting with each other and not actually creating any change.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to put one thing on that, and Elaine, I want to hear from you.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be really clear on one thing.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think that imperfect allies have a lot that they can do and they have their own responsibilities in whatever spaces they're in and the changes they're trying to make.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: But I also want to make sure that it's understood that it is not for the people of color to have to do the work to be like, you know, you are not like as an as an ally, like, hey, you want to work with me, don't you?
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, I'm an ally.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: How can I support you?
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like, like, let's make sure that we're not putting the responsibility on the people of color to give the past to the imperfect allies that I want you to feel good about yourself.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, no, no.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's not what we're doing either.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so we also have to understand where this is your place to acknowledge where that this disparity is and this power dynamic that is off.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_00: Let's work on fixing that.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_00: And you are the one that needs to be coming to me.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: I do enough labor.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: So just saying, like, I don't like the pick me piece.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: Just saying.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I loved, I just love the whole concept of going from cancel culture, the terms of it, to just really holding people accountable.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I'll be vulnerable as a fellow woman of color.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_03: There were things I have said.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_04: No, you're not.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_04: No, you're not.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_04: Uh-uh.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_04: You did not say a full woman of color.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_04: No, you're not.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_03: I said fellow fellow.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_03: I said, I'm giving her you a fellow.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, no.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_03: As a fellow, okay.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_03: So I should have shared this in the beginning of the podcast, but I have COVID right now.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_03: I'm at the other end of it.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_03: I'm vaccin-boosted.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so if I sound a little weird, that's probably why.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_03: But there have been things I have said, I'm like, oh my gosh, that came off so wrong.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_03: And what I'm really grateful for is my audience or my community or other friends telling me, like, hey, this didn't come off right.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, oh, which is why I should pause on the play.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_03: Get it, get it when it's called that.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_03: Like when you're creating content and you're really emotional, you want to share something to really hold on.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I'll write this.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe it could be angry and emotional first and then edit it.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_03: And that's why I have my own marketing strategy.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_03: Like, can you read this?
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_03: And then call me out.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_03: Like, tell me if this is like if there's something I need to edit.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: But that's the progress and not the perfection piece of this.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because none of us can fully attest to the experience of living in the skin of someone else.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: We can only address ours.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, there's a place that we can address maybe where there's intersection, but to be able to acknowledge that we're going through a progress to reconsider our own normal and then include what is considered normal for others and what they've experienced and how their life has happened to play out and where they'd like for it to go.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: We're all learning from each other.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: And we have to be open to understanding that we're not always going to get it right, but that there is a place to make amends, there's a place to apologize, there's a place to be able to learn and ask questions, and there's a place where you have to do self-directed learning and when possible, be in conversations to be able to get context.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: But it's because it's a process.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and dare I say, um, it's not even that you might not get it right.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_02: You're not gonna get it right.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_02: You'll eat some Nike, you're gonna eat it.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, you say it all the time.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna eat the Nike and you're gonna eat it more than once.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna put your foot in your mouth more than once.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_02: And that doesn't have a gender to it.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_02: That doesn't have a race to it, that doesn't even have an education or industry to it.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_02: Even Erica and I have said things that could be harmful or not quite inclusive because we're human and there's room for all of us to learn from each other.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's part of the reason why I'm so passionate about our community, is because it puts people who are different from each other in communication to speak to each other, to learn from each other, to write and read from each other and to consider things that they never considered before.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_02: I cannot speak to, you know, certain disabilities or certain ethnic backgrounds or the experience of even being a black man because I don't identify as being a man.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_02: So there's just so much to learn from each other.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that when we can accept the fact that when you are digging into things like charging, um, when you're digging into things like being an ally, that you are going to make mistakes.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_02: And to acknowledge that, you then give yourself the opportunity to say, okay, well, if I'm gonna fuck it up at some point, I might as well fuck it up spectacularly because I was trying to do something amazing.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_02: How about that?
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_02: Instead of being in fear and doing nothing.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and that's oh, and I mean, that's what's been what's really great that's happened since the pandemic is people just acknowledging that and they need to share.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I mean, you know, this doing marketing India, where back in the day, and what do you mean back in the day, just a couple of years ago, pre-2020, of you shouldn't share how you really feel about stuff politically or with issues.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_03: But then, like, who are you?
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_03: You need to understand, you know, what are the values?
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_03: And what I appreciate about being part of the pause on the play community, and also even with my community for Color Your Dreams, like I serve both a woman of color and allies.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_03: I know for both of you you do too.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_03: What I haven't appreciated though is like silo groups, different groups, wanting to push diversity, but not understanding you have to work together to really celebrate and honor the differences.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_03: So, can you share why should vote of color and allies work together?
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_03: One and two, what does it mean to be an imperfect ally?
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_03: Both of you have been talking about it throughout this whole episode.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's working together, and I think there's doing your own restoration as a self and a part of a community, because I think part of it is how is it that we can combine?
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: How is it that people that maybe have a different level of access or a platform and privilege can support those of us that do not have it because of things that we can't help, i.e.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: our skin color.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_00: But there's also a place where those of us that are somehow underserved because of our skin color or gender or our race or socioeconomic status, we also have healing to do before we can combine with anybody else.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: So there is a point that you need to be able to have spaces that are designed just for you so that you can work through things that only people that maybe identify as you can fully understand because you are living it.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then from there, you have to figure out how it is that you feel comfortable, how it is that you feel safe to then combine with people that, again, you are comfortable to be able to be in collaboration with and figure out what's possible.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: But what's challenging is if we have allies that aren't quite ready that are being forced into it, or any type of individual that identifies as a person of color, black or brown in any way, shape, or form that is being forced to work with people that they have historically had all of these reasons to not trust in this life and being able to be passed down from an epigenetic standpoint.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_00: We have to be able to have this place of I need me and I have to figure out me before I can figure out how to combine.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_00: But when that possibility comes up, there are very uh powerful opportunities there, but we have to give people the place to get there in their own time.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't have said that better.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's definitely a both and, you know, we need the spaces to have that deeper work amongst people who identify in the same way that we do.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_02: And we also need the spaces together.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_02: They both are equally important.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_02: And for some people, you're able to navigate those two things at the same time, depending on the nature of the community together.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so it doesn't necessarily always have to be I do this and then I do that, but it is so important.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, actively in 2020, you had so many Black people that were processing the trauma of seeing a man murdered on TV over and over again and social media over and over again that look like them.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_02: That is not the space to process that trauma amongst allies.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_02: Some of those people needed a space of their own and then a space to come together with their allies to decide how can we create change together?
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_02: How can we create access together?
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_02: How can we build a different future together?
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's learning and growing from one another, but like both of you emphasize, it's also healing within oneself, right?
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, when I start, I'm a first generation immigrant.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_03: So when I started noticing disparities or just a different perspective that I didn't have from my own parents and learning to grow and heal from it, I had to go to therapy and learn to grow from it.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_03: And being around my own community, learning the culture and understanding it.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I think as we've just, you know, as you get older, you're just more curious and learning more about your heritage and culture.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_03: But also the beauty of being in this country is having people that come from different backgrounds and have different beliefs.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_03: I think the unfortunate thing with algorithms and social media, it's like you're always going to see the same people that have the same things, but but what it doesn't do, it's coming to learn to celebrate the different things and coming to understand.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_03: So, for example, my background prior to being a business coach, I was working in politics.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_03: Like I was a grassroots organizer and also a fundraiser, and I worked on the Democratic side.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_03: And then when I got into nonprofit fundraising, someone had similar experience, but she worked on the Republican side.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, let's grab coffee.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_03: And it was so nice to connect with someone who, yes, might have different beliefs.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_03: And we were talking about why we no longer work in politics.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_03: And I told her, because I hated continuing blaming the other side.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like it didn't give, it didn't allow me to learn to understand the other side and try to find like what is common ground to move forward in.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_00: And the interesting thing that I think is being reflected back from what you said, and it shows up in imperfect allyship is that the actions that demonstrate imperfect allyship or being an imperfect ally really goes back to understanding that one, it's about progress, not perfection.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_00: You're not going to be perfect, but it's also understanding that you have a journey that you are on, and it's running concurrently with other people's.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_00: And at certain points, it's going to intersect, and at certain points, it's going to be separate.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_00: And we're all trying to figure that out while still understanding that even with what we're doing separately, it may at some point impact someone else.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, what is a part of this process?
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: How does it impact others?
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: And what is it along the way that I want to do to leave things better than what they were when I got here?
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_00: What's the impact that I want to create?
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_00: And just understanding that you are continuously trying to figure out more, figuring out how to be better, do better, and just being open along the way because you have to navigate that on a day-to-day, moment-to-moment basis.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_00: There are going to be moments that you are open and you want to have conversations.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_00: There are moments when you need to just direct people to go and do their own educating and then come back.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_00: And there are going to be moments where you just need to take care of yourself because a lot of us that do work, that intersex with imperfect allies are also navigating our own healing along the way because this is a lifetime journey.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_03: So good.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I could talk to both of you all day long.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_03: I wish I had that.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_03: And if I did, obviously I would pay both of you for it.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_03: But thank you so much for giving back to this community.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_03: And I always love ending each episode with two questions.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_03: So the first question is what is one reflective question people should ask themselves from this episode?
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_03: And since there's two of you, it could be two different reflective questions, obviously.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_03: Right now is the question queen.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna let her say the question.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, we also want a question from you, India.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_00: So Erica could go first right now, in this moment, as you have taken in this conversation.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: I would love for you to ask yourself, what do I want and what do I need?
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I want you to be very honest about it.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want you to think about the why.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want you to think about how I'm going to do it.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want you to think about how realistic it is.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to give yourself space to simply be open, honest, and expansive.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_00: What do you want and what do you need right now?
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think my instinct is sending me to a continuation of those questions.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_02: And that is asking yourself, what do you want to be remembered for?
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_02: We don't know how long we're gonna be here on earth, we don't know when our last day is.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's so important to ask yourself, what do you want to be remembered for?
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_02: What is the legacy that you want to leave behind for others?
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_02: And how does that intersect with what you want and need?
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_03: So good.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_03: And the last question is what is one action item people should do?
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna say the same thing.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna tell them go listen to the podcast.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_03: So Ditto.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_03: Well, actually, if I mean you could you could share.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_03: So both of them have an amazing podcast called Pause on the Play.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_03: One.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_03: And then two, I'm just gonna do a little shout out.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_03: I'm part of their pause on the play community.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so I'm just gonna go straight up to the ass.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_03: What if people are just so in love with you that they're like, oh, we want more of this, we want to work with you.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_03: So, what are ways folks can work with both of you?
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_02: So, starting with the podcast, you already are listening to a podcast right now, most likely.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_01: If you're reading, that's a different, that's a different conversation.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_01: Look at the bottom of the notes and click on the link.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_02: But if you are listening, open up the app that you're listening from and do a search for pause in the play.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_02: We have conversations like this all the time about things that really help you to reconsider what is normal in your life and your business and your marketing and the way that you just are operating as a whole, company culture, it's all covered, people's lived experiences.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that there is so much self-education that can come from being a fly on the wall in those conversations.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_02: So go ahead, search for pause on the play and give it a follow.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_02: And then the second thing that I'd say is listening to other conversations is passive.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_02: The world change and impact and transformation happens when you actually are able to be a part of that conversation and get feedback and share your stories and share your experiences, as well as get support with integrating the things that you're discovering into your life and into your business.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_02: And a great way to do that is to join Pause and the Play the community.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_02: So you can find out more about that at pauseandheplay.com slash community.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_03: Let me add to that plug on pause and the play community.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_03: So I've just joined it for the first month.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I mean, I am so grateful that I had that conversation with both of you when I was transitioning.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_03: Like, wait, what am I gonna do doing this?
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_03: And I really appreciate the coaching you gave me in this podcast episode where you're like, Elaine, you've always been known for accessibility and quality.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_03: What happened was my business has grown so much where I have so much clients.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_03: So I can't be as not that I can't be as accessible, but I started really like putting in valuing my time and energy that, okay, this is why I have to do a podcast instead.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_03: This is my accessibility, so I can really be accessible to my clients who are paying me so I could continue giving back.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_03: So having those conversations at Pause on the Place has been amazing.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I know, Erica, you've done some lives on Mighty Networks, like in the community, sharing stuff that has happened, like Joe Rogan.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_03: I know you're planning to talk more about a detail in public.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_03: So I have really appreciated being part of the community, not just with other wood of color and POC, but also allies as well.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_03: It's also so great to see allies doing the work and having the conversation and receiving feedback.
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you for creating this community since I am a part of it.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you for participating in it.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I've loved the collaborations that I've seen happening in the community as well, guesting on each other's podcast and just really supporting each other's businesses and doing so many incredible things together to create change.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_03: Well, Eric and India, I know we're over time by 13 minutes.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_03: So I really appreciate how much both of you have given.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_03: I hope all of you are gonna take time, pen to paper, and really journal the questions both Eric and India shared with all of you.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you both for your time and energy.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_03: Legacy makers, didn't I tell you in the beginning of this episode how real and deep this conversation is gonna get?
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_03: It was probably my favorite interview that I have done.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_03: So if you enjoyed it, I just want to make sure you're going to subscribe to the Color Your Dreams podcast and leave a rating and review on Apple.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_03: It goes such a long way, and it's the best way to support our Caller Your Dreams movement.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_03: And if you want more from this episode, from this podcast, you can get all the links and information mentioned in our show notes on ElaineLew.com slash podcast.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_03: So, Legacy Maker, I'll see you next Thursday for a newest episode.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_03: And remember to call your dreams too.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_03: Create your legacy.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_03: It goes a long way, and it's one of the best ways to support our Call Your Dreams movement.
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_03: Want more?
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_03: You can find all the links and information mentioned in this episode in the show notes on my website, ElaineLew.com slash podcast.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_03: All right, legacymaker, I'll see you next Thursday for our newest episode.
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_03: Remember to call your dreams too.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_03: Create your legacy.