Latest / Coaches Rising / 263 - Kim Barta: The Shadow of Shadow Work

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263 - Kim Barta: The Shadow of Shadow Work · Coaches Rising

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[UNKNOWN]: Thank you for watching!
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[SPEAKER_01]: welcome back to the coaches rising podcast.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm delighted to be joined again today by Kim Biter.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We've done a couple of podcasts previously which were very well received and today we're going to be diving in to this topic of the shadow of shadow work.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So Kim, if you don't know him, he's an internationally
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[SPEAKER_01]: recognize thought leader, speaker and teacher who's pioneered several leading edge therapeutic approaches with shadow.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So we're going to be diving in today to what do we mean with the shadow of shadow work?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Kim will talk about the process of shadow resolution and quite a lot of nuance and detail which for any of us listening who are
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[SPEAKER_01]: interested in doing this deeper transformative work, it's just so essential, so powerful to have this level of distinction available to us so that we can orient in our practice to making the right kind of move at the right moment and not actually doing more harm as Kim will talk about.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And we'll also talk about the invitation being made to us as practitioners in these times.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's a really rich conversation.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Let's dive in.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Here's the podcast with Kim Biter.
1:43
[SPEAKER_01]: So, Kim, yeah, we just decided to hit record because we were checking in and then actually, I think we hit, we were seeing that was really, you know, interesting already and so just as a frame for people listening, we were talking about something I saw you say, which was, um, that,
2:04
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, if we are trying to save the world or you know, we're operating from even more subtle than that, you know, we're like operating from a sense of that that's something's wrong.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We need to fix it in the world that, um, yeah, that's going to, that's going to create issue.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, maybe you could just pick, do you remember what you were saying about that?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I was saying whenever we choose to work in social justice or in a transformational healing field like coaching or psychotherapy, any of those, the first step is to always start with ourselves to heal ourselves because if we don't work on healing ourselves and being kind of whole in ourselves, then whatever distortions we have are going to propagate out into whatever our intervention is.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If we're into social justice, we're going to create this disturbance, our internal disturbance is going to be acted out on the external world, and that's going to create a counter-disturbance a counter-reaction to our disturbance.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And this is what we see in politics so much between the left and the right is that each side has
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[SPEAKER_00]: Not done their whole consciousness capacity, and so one acts out in one way and the other one creates a counter reaction to the point that even if they're supporting the same policy, if it was supported by Democrat, the Republicans will oppose and if it was supported by Republican, the Democrats will oppose it even though it's virtually the same policy.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So what happens is when we have our own disturbances, our own holes, our own conundrums, if we haven't solved, whenever we act out, we act out in a way that will create an account or reaction to it because that's how the universe balances itself.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so the universe is always, in my opinion, the universe of consciousness, I should say, is always operating in balance, is always coming back to balance itself.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So if I come with a lot of aggression, there'll be a counter aggression.
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[SPEAKER_00]: uh to balance that aggression out.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If I come with a lot of passivity there might be passivity that does that and then we can get the counter balance with a lot of aggression might come a lot of passivity so that the aggression is trying to make something happen and the passive avoidance just won't let it happen and this happens in marriages, it happens in politics,
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[SPEAKER_01]: So there's two places we can go one is therefore I could imagine this is the importance of shadow work in leadership that actually, you know, I mean it's kind of obvious in a way that we're crying out for a different way of collaborating together that's not based upon this kind of sense of polarization and do you
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think what you're talking about also plays out in people who are working with groups and one-on-one as you're pointing to and we can go there after, but you know, it obviously there's a sense of increasing polarization.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And what's your sense of like what's going on globally with all of that?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that actually, as I've heard some people say, because
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[SPEAKER_01]: There's more, you know, if I use it metaphorically, there's more light in the world than ever that the shadow can actually start to surface.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what's happening to you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You think that's a romantic view on it?
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a pretty romantic view but it's a lovely one and we can play with that and see how there is some truth in it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There's always some truth and almost anything.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's truth in that, you know, consciousness is raising.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So there's a counterbalance to that and the shadows are rising to the surface so we can see them.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think that there's also the...
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[SPEAKER_00]: balance of hierarchy versus egalitarian.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So there's this natural dynamic in the world in our own consciousness as well as in the environment around us in the evolutionary nature of
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[SPEAKER_00]: of species evolving where we have hierarchy and we have egalitarianism and then we have the forces that want to make everything egalitarian and we have the forces that want to make everything hierarchical and the people that are at the top want to maintain their hierarchy.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And the thing is, is that we could create of the nice beautiful balance between a healthy hierarchy and a healthy egalitarian because a flat egalitarian society doesn't work either.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And a rigid hierarchical one obviously has its problems as well, but between the two, if you take a look at
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[SPEAKER_00]: how this might evolve organically and how it has organically evolved in some societies is people that are particularly good naturally rise to the top because not because of power and the ability to force themselves to the top.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But because the people go, hey, this person is really good at this particular thing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We know them well enough that they're good at that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And somebody also is good at this other thing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So instead of having this dynamic where there's like
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[SPEAKER_00]: There's like, you know, there's these people that are really good at certain things and they rise to the top because of their merit and other people are good at other things because they rise to the top because of their merit and then you don't get this concentrated power dynamic.
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[SPEAKER_00]: that like one party has all the power, most of power, one precedent has all the power, almost all the power.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's a very evolving dynamic, and we see this in the planes Indians tribes where there are multiple chiefs, and one was like chief of war because they were really good at war, and the other one was the chief of
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, food or, you know, community and setting up homes and things like that and there's this really organic rising of just people's natural merits and they would rise and fall and rise and fall as needed rather than kind of being
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[SPEAKER_00]: say all these other people are now your leader in these other areas, even though the people wouldn't want them as leaders in those areas.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so the difference between like this rigid, structured hierarchy that it's not particularly healthy that it really just concentrates wealth in the the top, we can have hierarchy based upon organically fluctuating merit.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that way, even if you are a leader in some way, you are egalitarian in all the other ways.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And then when your leadership role is not needed for a period of time, you naturally dissolve back into egalitarian structure around all of that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so people are always egalitarian and people are always rising to these kind of leadership positions in a very organic way.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that way we can honor the beauty of healthy hierarchy and also the beauty of healthy egalitarianism.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think, if that example you just gave that, that was a result of the combination of the societal structure, you know, like the cultural structure those groups had, combined with maybe the way they held what it was to be human and the journey of life and being a leader that allowed them to maybe rights of passage,
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[SPEAKER_01]: etc.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think because, you know, I guess like I'm connecting this back to, I could see that shadow work on a broader level could.
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[SPEAKER_01]: support people to be able to relinquish power, to see blind spots where they're holding on to power through fear or the means or the drivers.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I'm just kind of, and I think the question comes of, I've also heard other people say, like, there's too much focus on people's inner work, it's actually about building these
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[SPEAKER_01]: ways of being, which I'm sustainable and creative.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so if you take a look at this not from either or, but from a both-and from an organic reciprocal orientation, then what we see is if we don't do our interpersonal work and we try to create cultural dynamics, we're going to pollute the cultural dynamics with the shadow of our lack of internal work.
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[SPEAKER_00]: At the same time, we need to build cultural things that will hold people so that they can have a healthier internal.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so this becomes this evolutionary thing where, yeah, as a culture we have done, we've held containers for people to have more inner work and psychotherapy, coaching everything has become very popular.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's okay now to do inner work, whereas, you know,
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[SPEAKER_00]: 40 years ago really wasn't.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It was seen as either something wrong with you, you know, 50 years ago.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And now it's like, no, if you don't do it, it's almost like there's something wrong with you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, this is an important part of humanity.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that's a good shift.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that allows people that have actually done their work to actually formulate a healthier culture.
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[SPEAKER_00]: that will thus hold the next group of people to rise in a healthier way even more so.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so what we're looking at is how do we consciously support the evolution that's reciprocal evolution of our culture?
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[SPEAKER_00]: hand our psyche.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And this plays back down into your talking about shadow work or coaching or transformational arts.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I love that term that you came up, but I don't know if that's exactly the term you use, but the transformational arts is that you'll see that a lot of people at first, and this is understandable, but a lot of people at first, you know, they want to be kind of like the expert, you know?
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[SPEAKER_00]: they learn a technique and they're the expert in the room and they're healing the other person whereas those of us that have been in the field for a while realize that this is a reciprocal relationship and every time I'm in a session with somebody I am learning as much as they are learning and I am healing in the moment as much as they are healing because if I take the stance that I am a healing I'm a healing evolutionary individual.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If I take the stance that I'm a healing evolutionary individual, then every moment, every interaction I'm in is part of healing and learning.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And actually taking that stance of being an evolving healing individual, not healing you, healing a being that's being healed in every moment, or a human being that's evolving and growing in every moment, then my interaction with you is
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[SPEAKER_00]: imbued with that orientation.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's a nice, that oozes out of the way that I interact with you and with the person in the room with me and there's this, again, this healthy balance between egalitarianism and hierarchy.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I have some skills that can rise to the surface at times, but I can drop back into the egalitarian at any moment because it's egalitarian relationship
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[SPEAKER_00]: hugely healing dynamic to it as well.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so every stance that we take in our consciousness oozes out in the way we interact with people.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so if I have all these structures in my head of unhealthy hierarchies and rigid ideas, that's going to populate the way that I interact with any person in front of me, whether it's in a healing dynamic or whether it's in politics.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I can feel that that sense of both like egalitarianism and hierarchy and the view that I'm a healing being and I think that's really important.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's beautiful.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that actually you cap into a greater
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[SPEAKER_01]: evolutionary force when one kind of starts to open to that actually, in a sense, like through it's coming together, whether that's one on one or groups, you know, it's not me here, the expert healing you, but actually we're opening in this moment to the evolution to this life force that wants to flow and evolve and that it can move through the eat through
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, it's beautiful exactly.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so the more like rigid boundaries we have, that blocks flow.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So when we're really wanting to create flow in a dynamic, we want to dissolve more and more boundaries so that the energy
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[SPEAKER_00]: Whatever you want to call it, information systems, whether it be energetic information systems or intellectual information systems or emotional information systems, social information systems or God forbid spiritual information systems, whatever flows, the boundaries don't block it or distort it, so it can flow freely, and that's how we create flow in our interactions with people and in society and within ourselves.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I guess that takes us also back to what we were saying about, you know, if you're working with someone, then yeah, you need to be doing your own shadow integration because that's gonna actually open the aperture.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So to speak of what you're able to include and in a sense that flow, you just named, we'll flow more fully and maybe through a broader channel.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe you could speak to that and I think because, you know, we've given quite maybe gross level examples of what's happening with politics in the world and but actually I think on a very subtle level sometimes even if we work through some more gross levels of
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm a coach or a therapist, and I want to help people, but it was coming from something in me, but actually that can still be playing out on quite subtle levels.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Does it not, there's an eye to that, I think isn't there, too?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think you're right, right, and aren't.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and so as we feel the more nuanced aspects, I, I, I,
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[SPEAKER_00]: So in my work, I talk about depth, breath, and height a lot.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, height is our ability to see things from a more advanced perspective.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Breath is our ability to take whatever we have and move it out into the world in more aspects of our life.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like I might be really good at a meditation, but as soon as I get off the pillow, you know, I'm a shit show.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I didn't work.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so can I move that out into the world, same with my shadow work, you know, I can work on maybe two parts of myself, you know, the, the, the, know it all and the, and the one that doesn't, or the one that I like that I've been playing with a lot now is that, and that I see in the world so much as narcissism and nihilism.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And people often like are afraid of the term Narciss.
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[SPEAKER_00]: When we got them done in Narciss, well 95% of people believe they're above average.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So 95% of us have a little bit of a Narcissist equality.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Instead of running away from it, just going, where do I have?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because every time we have a, like I said, the universe balance, it's itself.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So every time we have a little bit of Narcissism, we have a little bit of nihilism.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And counter
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[SPEAKER_00]: Truth is, every time there's a little bit of nihilism, you probably have a little bit of narcissism.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It one of the examples I get a lot of people say, oh, I'm not narcissistic, you know?
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[SPEAKER_00]: I feel bad about myself, yeah.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But you feel so bad about yourself that you take up all the space talking about how bad you are, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like, oh my God, I'm so bad.
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[SPEAKER_00]: My life is so bad, blah, blah, blah.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm such a victim, you know, and they take up 80% of the airspace, you know, that's narcissism.
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[SPEAKER_00]: the balance is always there.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So if we can hold honestly just look at ourselves and go, oh, this is where I take up more spaces.
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[SPEAKER_00]: This is where I think I'm a little more deserving than others and this is where I feel like I'm less deserving than others.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And we hold that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that practice, you know, when we take that as a polarity and we just hold that in our hearts and allow ourselves to feel the vastness of that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: we can bring those into this beautiful balance still point right inside ourselves until we just we just have this still point where we're not that neither either or neither either or and then we can also bring it back out and hold the beauty then of all humanity in our narcissism and our nihilism with grace rather than being triggered by it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: want to add anything.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think a little bit of topic there, but I don't know, it's one of important, an important realization for me was to recognize where there was a sense of humility which was narcissistic, you know, it's like, you know, so, I'm still more on one, you know, why not me?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Why I can't be the one that takes up space.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So would this be a practice you, I see you in a way embodying something as you talk about this still point where there's almost like an inclusion on several levels of what's here in the field of what's being and holding of that in which, yeah, it seems like you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so let's, this, this, this, this, this polarity as we, as we, as we just accept the truth again, instead of having boundaries that say, oh, I can't be that or I can't be this or I'm not this or I'm not that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: As soon as we say that, it's like, wait a minute, we are whole consciousness.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm denying a part of myself.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If I'm seeing it out there in the world and I don't like it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's in here.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and so I'm creating a boundary again, which prevents the flow of conscious the natural evolutionary flow of consciousness.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So if I can see it and then I can hold that polarity in me and I can heal that polarity in me to a still plane, then I can come back and hold the full swath of it again.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But now when I see it out in the world, I'm not disturbed by it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I've healed it inside me.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I see it in the world.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's not like I'm blind up Ali Ali and come free, it rules color glasses.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I still see it in the world, but it doesn't disturb me to see it in the world because I've already healed it inside myself.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And since I've healed it inside myself, I can come with a lot more grace when I meet someone who's,
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[SPEAKER_00]: being a little more narcissistic or a little more nihilistic, I can hold it with grace, and with the capacity that I have healed it, so how do I exude that healing in my interaction with another person?
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then I'm one's actions, one's leadership, one's way of relating, has a different kind of frequency to it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and isn't enacting that kind of rebound right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I want to ask you a bit later in our conversation about shadow work.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I know we've had a couple of conversations about that in the past, which I highly fantastic conversations, but let's pick up.
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[SPEAKER_01]: When had me reach out to you initially was seeing you talk about the shadow of shadow work or seeing you write about that and I thought that's a really interesting line of inquiry and so I wondered if you could
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[SPEAKER_01]: Um, just just say what what do you mean by the shadow or shadow work?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because it's a great phrase.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You're great.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the shadow side of the shadow work.
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[SPEAKER_00]: What I started noticing in myself and in other practitioners was that
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[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of times we have this bias about how shadow work is supposed to be done.
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[SPEAKER_00]: One of the common ones is the more deep I go, the more healing I'm getting.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So if I can get somebody to really promote and cry or rage or something like that that I'm supposedly doing some deep healing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But if we really study neurobiology and the neurology of change, that's not true.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But what we're actually doing is we're reinforcing the same neural pathway over and over and over again.
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[SPEAKER_00]: and so we actually make it worse.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If it's a certain type of shadow.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So for example, if it's an interject, of which I am an interject, I've absorbed false information inside of me and then I live it out as if it's true.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If I then have emotional reactions around that false information,
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[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm a bad person or I was abused or I'm amazing person.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I, you know, my parents believe that I was better than everybody else.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It was treated me like, you know, a golden child or whatever that is.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, whenever I have an emotion around that,
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm having the emotion is actually distorted too because it's around a distorted belief system.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So a lot of times people think, oh, emotions are always true.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, they're only true relative to whatever it is I'm having the emotion too.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And if the emotion is around a thought that's false, the emotion is actually false too.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's an inaccurate emotion because it's an inaccurate emotion around an inaccurate thought around an inaccurate perception that's not even true.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so if I keep practicing that emotion, if I do an expressive therapy, you know, such as, you know, get the rage out, well that's great if you've suppressed rage, we want to express it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But once we've expressed it, we also want to know what is the anger really about and how my distorting information that generates rage inside of me in the first place.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So what happens is, one of the aspects of the shadow side of shadow work is the belief system that if going deep is always the best thing to do.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so we go deep, but then what we do is we just reinforce this unhealthy neural pathway.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I created the system called the evolution of shadow resolution, ESR.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And what we do is we go through stages and the idea is to move through the stages, not necessarily get lost in any one of them, and so you can go deep into any one of the stages, but that's not the purpose is to go deep the purpose is to create evolution.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They are now a evolution of consciousness.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And it's okay to go deep to explore that, but don't think that you're doing therapy, that you're actually getting healing done, because you're actually reinforcing the same narrow pathways.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So the idea is to create a system, to move through the system that actually keeps changing the narrow pathway to healthier narrow pathways.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's kind of the neurological way to look at it, from a more spiritual perspective.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, and I can get lost in a spiritual bypass where I just,
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[SPEAKER_00]: meditate on these certain states that are very calm or blissful or something, and then I bypass shadow work because I'm just meditating and if I do my meditation work, I can get to a place where I don't have any disturbances until I get back out in the world and then I have disturbances again.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so, the same thing can happen in shadow work as we go in.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We can go, oh, I'm doing such deep shadow work.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm really emoting.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm really doing this.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And we can have combos like this arrogance, again, like subtle narcissism around how much pain I can exude and express to everybody.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And how vulnerable I can be.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The more vulnerable I am, the more enlightened I am, kind of a thing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that kind of vulnerability is just kind of a false vulnerability.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It feels real at the time, but it's really vulnerability about our distortions that we haven't even healed yet.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so the idea is to move those through, so I call it, you know, the unaware stage.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And then we have the symptom aware stage.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And in the symptom aware stage, and a lot of psychotherapy and coaching and everything just...
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[SPEAKER_00]: get stuck right here.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because this is where I'm aware of my symptoms, I'm aware of my sadness, my anger, my hurt, my somatic experiences, you know, somatic therapists can get really lost here to all of them.
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[SPEAKER_00]: All of them, modalities can get lost here, because it's so enticing to get lost into the symptoms, it's the storyline.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I was abused as a child, I feel a lot, and all these horrible
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that's important stuff.
27:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, every stage is important, but the important piece is now to move through that stage and not to indulge any given stage of transformation.
27:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So we go from symptom wire to trigger a wear and I kind of alluded to that because I feel all of the things because of the way I was raised.
27:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel all these things because Joel looked at me a little cross-eyed and now I feel angry and so it's really Joel's fault, right?
27:25
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, or something like that, you know, I can pick anything out in the universe and say, that's the reason why I'm feeling this way and that's a trigger-aware state.
27:34
[SPEAKER_00]: So in the symptom of wear stage, we attack the symptom, like in medicine, and this is a metamodel.
27:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So it works with medicine, it works with psychology, it works with spirituality, it works with anything.
27:44
[SPEAKER_00]: In the symptom of wear stage, what I do is I attack the symptom.
27:48
[SPEAKER_00]: If I have a headache, I take an aspirin rather than dealing with my stress issues.
27:52
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's an example of the symptom of the attack, the symptom, and the trigger of where you attack the trigger.
27:59
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, somebody triggers me, so I attack the trigger.
28:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I try to eliminate the trigger.
28:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I try to diminish the trigger.
28:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I try to do something to make the trigger go away.
28:08
[SPEAKER_00]: They're the bad person.
28:09
[SPEAKER_00]: That trigger out there is the bad thing.
28:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And it needs to be stopped.
28:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And we see a lot of this in politics.
28:15
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, we get a particular politician that triggers us.
28:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And now we want to eliminate that politician.
28:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And
28:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes politicians need to be able to say, you know, not in power.
28:25
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying that.
28:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just saying if we're really reacting to it, it's because we haven't done our internal work, because I can look at politics.
28:33
[SPEAKER_00]: For example, a lot of people can look at politics.
28:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Go, I'm not triggered by any of this.
28:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I do think that it's not the best way to go, but I don't have to be triggered and reactive and distraught feel so disturbed by it.
28:44
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, if I'm feeling really disturbed by it's because I haven't done my work, my shadow work.
28:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I can be, you know, I can kind of go, okay, there's better ways to go about this, right?
28:56
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't lose our discernment, we just lose our disturbance, our internal painful experience of disturbance, so the trigger where we attack the trigger, and then we get to internal process aware, and that is where I start realizing that I manufacture my symptoms and I manufacture my triggers, by the way, I hold my consciousness.
29:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And now, once we get to that stage, we realize, oh, there are no triggers in the world.
29:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I manufacture every one of them by the way, I hold my consciousness.
29:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And if I hold my consciousness differently, the symptoms go away and the triggers go away.
29:37
[SPEAKER_00]: The events are still there, but they're not triggers anymore, they're just events.
29:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And just before you continue,
29:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Perhaps this is becoming more commonly understood.
29:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if it's a bubble I live in, but I feel like, you know, in the coaching world in the therapy world, there's a greater understanding that it's like all through the way I construct my experience.
30:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm an effecture it and that it goes again.
30:09
[SPEAKER_01]: That is profound.
30:10
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a profound,
30:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Insight, but also profoundly potent and subtle realm of experience to recognize how much I'm contracting and reacting against life in life.
30:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I hear you and I do agree much of the field is moving in that direction.
30:38
[SPEAKER_00]: They're moving to that.
30:43
[SPEAKER_00]: we don't understand the difference between being trigger and symptom systems aware and internal process aware.
30:51
[SPEAKER_00]: So we can become aware of a trigger and then the trigger causes the symptoms and then we can be assessing this whole thing, but we're not actually in the place of going
31:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think you're pointed at that very subtle difference.
31:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what I like about what you're saying Joel is that people can think that they're working in that place even when they're not.
31:15
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a subtle difference when you go, I am actually manufacturing this.
31:20
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not just that this is a system that I can observe, and this is a system that I am, and this is a system that I might be able to mitigate or control or change in some way, but just the very nature of the way that I observe the world, the way that I am lost in that trigger symptoms system.
31:47
[SPEAKER_00]: If I'm inside of it, I can't really see.
31:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I can experience it and I can be bounced around by it and I can be kind of noticing it when I can step out and see that that whole world is my manufacturing.
32:01
[SPEAKER_00]: and the whole thing can dissolve, and I can create an entire new world and the way that I view the world is a subtle difference in a powerful one.
32:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think you're pointing to that.
32:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Very subtle difference that the entire field is moving towards, but many have not made it yet.
32:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Because even the word healing can,
32:28
[SPEAKER_01]: actually be like rising out of that kind of symptom trigger aware phase I think I want to check do so it's like I'm actually reenacting the whole system because I want to heal myself because things are not okay and I want it to be okay and understandably people of course do want to heal but
32:51
[SPEAKER_01]: It seems like there's a different possibility from that process of where level where it's like, oh, that whole dynamic of improvement, self-improvement, can have a kind of react.
33:10
[SPEAKER_01]: It maybe gets back to what you were saying before about it's actually recreating that counter-reaction in the way I'm enacting it.
33:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, beautiful.
33:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I love what you're saying, Joel, that whole dynamic that if I believe that I'm distorted or that there's something wrong with me, there's this, and I think you probably see it in the field too, I need to make myself perfect to be okay.
33:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And then, of course, you just get stuck in this loop of, oh, I need to always be better.
33:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I always need to be more perfect.
33:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I need to be more perfect.
33:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm still not okay unless I'm perfect.
33:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
33:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And that whole loop, you know, leads to a lot of very disturbing feelings.
33:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've been in that loop.
33:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure you've been in that loop.
33:56
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, that's why we can recognize it, right?
33:59
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, oh, yeah, I spent so many years in that loop.
34:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was kind of a painful loop.
34:04
[SPEAKER_00]: But did a lot of good?
34:06
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, a grateful for it, you know, but it's important at some point to go, no, it's okay to be messy human being.
34:13
[SPEAKER_00]: That's part of the acceptance, deep self-acceptance, too.
34:18
[SPEAKER_00]: So we have what I talk about is sacred principles, which is the ideal, how we can live in this beautiful sacred way internally or interpersonally.
34:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And so what happens when we get into that perfection mode, we're into the sacred principles and they're beautiful.
34:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's a beautiful sacred journey of healing, but it needs to be balanced again with unconditional love.
34:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I love no matter what, and I can love you no matter what, because if I can only love you, Joel, if you're perfect, then of course, at some point you're not gonna be perfect, then the love goes away, and that's not a good way to live either.
35:06
[SPEAKER_00]: and then
35:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And then in our relationship, there might be times where I say, hey, I want to bring in this sacred principle that we're going to be more conscious around XYZ.
35:19
[SPEAKER_00]: If it doesn't happen, it's okay.
35:20
[SPEAKER_00]: You're still held with love.
35:22
[SPEAKER_00]: But let's play with this sacred principle.
35:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that something you'd like to do with me?
35:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Would that be a fun journey for us to be on?
35:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we get this playful, unconditionally loving,
35:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, even, and I want to come back to the journey you were taking us through through these levels or the metal model, even going to a place where it's like, like, I might feel that sense of fear forever in my life, and that's okay, you know, and that's actually sacred, you know, I mean, so it sounds a little bit kind of strange to say that, but it's like,
36:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, maybe it's just going back to this thing of perfecting oneself.
36:09
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, you know what, I'm kind of okay that if that fear just stays, it's just sacred in itself, you know, what a beautiful thing.
36:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, yeah.
36:20
[SPEAKER_01]: So.
36:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, if we maybe come back to the process of the journey of you were talking about being internally processed aware.
36:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And what could you take us keep taking us through the resolution of shadow?
36:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Are there places beyond that?
36:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Or what have we not said about this practice of being internally processed aware that it's important?
36:45
[SPEAKER_00]: So
36:46
[SPEAKER_00]: internal process aware is one of the very important steps of healing.
36:52
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you take a look at,
36:55
[SPEAKER_00]: could talk about the shadow tree where you have leaves that have shadow symptoms, right?
36:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And we can keep plugging off the symptoms, but the tree will just keep creating new leaves, right?
37:03
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'll stop drinking, but I'll start smoking like a thing or I'll stop yelling at the dog, but then I kick the cat or whatever.
37:11
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I mean, whatever, it's symptom substitution.
37:14
[SPEAKER_00]: So we got that.
37:15
[SPEAKER_00]: So every time we do shadow work, we're really talking about how far can we get to the core seed when we get to the
37:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Excuse me, when we get to the trunk, we're kind of like saying, okay, all of this shadow is growing out of this trunk.
37:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I can understand how I'm manufacturing it.
37:32
[SPEAKER_00]: But when we get to the core seed, we're getting to the original, the original dynamic that led to that.
37:38
[SPEAKER_00]: What was the original distortion that led to this whole growth of this shadow tree?
37:45
[SPEAKER_00]: What was the original distortion?
37:47
[SPEAKER_00]: So we get to the original distortion and we clear it up.
37:51
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's not distorted anymore.
37:52
[SPEAKER_00]: There's several different ways to do that depending upon what the distortion is.
37:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Now we have three classes of distortion, if you look,
38:02
[SPEAKER_00]: When I, when I, when I did this work, I studied cross-culturally and I studied it over time.
38:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And when I looked at all the different psychotherapy modalities over time and cross-culturally, they really broke down into three classic dynamics.
38:22
[SPEAKER_00]: One is that they have the expressive therapies.
38:25
[SPEAKER_00]: and you have the integration therapies and you have the owning therapies.
38:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And pretty much every therapy fits into one of those three categories or addresses one or more of those categories.
38:38
[SPEAKER_00]: But those are the three things, either I'm either I'm, so the expressive therapies are attempting to let go of something.
38:48
[SPEAKER_00]: that you don't need to hang on to.
38:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And those came from what I term, interjects.
38:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I introjected something that was distorted and now I live it out as if it's true.
38:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the idea is to let go of that distortion.
39:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you have the ownership techniques, which is where I'm projecting.
39:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I'm disturbed by something outside of me.
39:13
[SPEAKER_00]: that's a projection orientation.
39:15
[SPEAKER_00]: If I'm disturbed by something outside of me, it's a, it's a, I'm projecting.
39:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And so what I do is I take ownership of it, and therefore, the beauty of the projection ownership, and people get, this is the hardest one for people to do, because it's really down out there that's bothering me, right?
39:34
[SPEAKER_00]: it's all of that out there that's bothering it's it's fault it's it's fault not not me and so it really is courageous to do projection work but when we say okay no that's in me too and we kind of hold that with with grace and love and he and and allow it to heal so to speak
39:52
[SPEAKER_00]: It calms down, and one of the things that actually happens is we re-own our power, because the power is out there, and so I'm a victim to it.
40:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm disturbed because Trump's a certain way or I'm disturbed because the Democrats are a certain way or I'm disturbed because my partners are certain and so it's actually what we're doing is we're projecting our healthy power out onto the world in a distorted unhealthy way.
40:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we want to do actually is take back our power.
40:22
[SPEAKER_00]: That means taking back the disturbance that we see out there and taking ownership, but that also means that the power comes back.
40:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And now we can create that disturbed unhealthy power into healthy power.
40:34
[SPEAKER_00]: healthy, healthiness.
40:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And now we can live in the world with an empowered, instead of controlling.
40:42
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're now we're empowered within ourselves.
40:46
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't need to be trolling to feel power.
40:49
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't have to get mad at the external world because it doesn't submit to my belief of how everything should be.
40:57
[SPEAKER_00]: because I'm empowered.
40:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And once I'm empowered, that gives me even more power to heal all of this stuff inside.
41:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And, or to create balance, if we wanna go at the healing, we're just creates balance.
41:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Because the universe is in balance, why am I out of balance?
41:14
[SPEAKER_00]: It's because I have distorted those universe in certain ways by taking into portions and by emitting distortions.
41:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And so by dissolving those distortions, I come back into balance.
41:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm in balance with the universe, just the way it is.
41:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if I'm saying the universe needs to be different, I'm saying that I'm smarter than the universe, it's kind of a narcissistic thing, actually, if you think about it, you know?
41:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, we can have, so that's the unconditional part, and then the sacred principles is, yes, and I would like to play in the world of these sacred principles, will you play with me?
41:48
[SPEAKER_00]: right with these sacred principles.
41:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we can have a desire to be part of evolving the universe, but not from a judgmental place of it needs to submit to my will of the way I think it should be, because that's what creates all this anger and resentment and frustration, fear, hatred, and all that stuff.
42:07
[SPEAKER_00]: So we take it back, we hold it, and we hold it with grace and unconditional love,
42:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we, the power comes back with it as it comes back the power comes back and then when it's hold with unconditional love the boundaries dissolve.
42:23
[SPEAKER_00]: that prevent the sacred flow of energy and then that allows for our healing.
42:31
[SPEAKER_00]: We can hold that same thing inside of us with grace and love and now it can hold it out there with grace and love.
42:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And now we walk through the world empowered rather than disempowered and then resenting the world for being having my power that I've given to it basically.
42:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's the beautiful healing of the
42:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, you just think of leadership and the sense of how, as people do that work, they become more like vessels.
43:02
[SPEAKER_01]: and able to kind of attune and flow with the evolution of life.
43:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And, wow, wouldn't that be great to have more of that?
43:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
43:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, it's really a vocative description you're offering of what becomes possible, like living more in flow and co-creative, co-creative kind of dance with what's emerging moment by moment.
43:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Beautiful.
43:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I love it.
43:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And could you talk about integration as well?
43:36
[SPEAKER_00]: It's worth it.
43:37
[SPEAKER_00]: The third one is splits.
43:40
[SPEAKER_00]: We call it parts work, split ego states, I call it because if you really look at parts work, you'll realize the parts kind of rise and they fall and dissolve and then they rise and they fall so they're kind of ego states.
43:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And by calling a mego states it allows it to have a little bit of a softer tone than a part because in a part is rigid and it's always there and it never resolves basically, you know, I mean it can, you know, but if you call it ego state, it gives it a softer.
44:10
[SPEAKER_00]: a softer, more fluid dynamic to it, which is what I think is more accurate, and it's what we're moving towards is to have ego states that can evolve and flow and rise and dissolve.
44:21
[SPEAKER_00]: So the idea of an integration is I've split myself into, I had some,
44:26
[SPEAKER_00]: interject the came in or some distortion that came in that made me have to divide into and specialize so one of me one part of me specialized in appeasing mom and the other part specialized in appeasing dad maybe for example and now have these two parts and they're in conflict with each other internally so I created peace externally at the cost of
44:45
[SPEAKER_00]: piece, lack of peace internally.
44:48
[SPEAKER_00]: That might be an example of how it happens.
44:50
[SPEAKER_00]: It can happen in a married ways.
44:52
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I grow up and I go out of my house or whatever, and I'm living with myself.
44:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And now I still have these two parts inside of me, one that learned to adopt, to adapt, to dad, and one that learned to adapt to mom, and they're in conflict with each other.
45:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So I live this disturbance to rest of my life unless I actually do my integration work.
45:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So again, we have these two parts, these two ego states, one rises and falls, the other one rises and falls.
45:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And we know this because we get pulled in different directions.
45:22
[SPEAKER_00]: We have the indecision in our life.
45:23
[SPEAKER_00]: We start doing one thing and then we self-sabotage it.
45:27
[SPEAKER_00]: We go on a diet and we blow off the diet.
45:30
[SPEAKER_00]: We start an exercise program, we blow it off.
45:34
[SPEAKER_00]: decide we're going to become the best coach in the world and then we end up, you know, you know, not not doing the work to actually become a very good coach, you know, just live it out narcissistically.
45:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I am the best without actual honest assessment.
45:51
[SPEAKER_00]: All these different things.
45:52
[SPEAKER_00]: And so with the integration work what we're doing is we're holding both with unconditional love.
46:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And the unconditional loving witness does not have a judgment either way and it doesn't have a bias towards either one.
46:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Now you'll notice the difference between the kind of what I call the dictator ego state versus the unconditional loving witness.
46:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Because the dictator,
46:15
[SPEAKER_00]: we'll often have a bias.
46:17
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the good one, this is the bad one.
46:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And if we try to heal from that place, we're gonna distort it all.
46:23
[SPEAKER_00]: We actually have to be able to get into the unconditional living witness.
46:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes we can't do it.
46:28
[SPEAKER_00]: We need someone to hold it for us.
46:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the power of the transformational artist just to be able to stay in unconditional love.
46:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And not by into the persons,
46:37
[SPEAKER_00]: dictator ego state because a person will present saying this is you know the obviously bias towards one they kind of like one more than the other and it's really easy for the coach or the transformation of the artists to get sucked into oh yeah we want to work on this and we want to marginalize that or minimize that part of our life.
46:57
[SPEAKER_00]: But that part of our life is maybe telling us something very, very important.
47:00
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really easy.
47:01
[SPEAKER_00]: It sucked into that, you know, what I called a dictator ego state, or the dominant ego state that has a bias.
47:09
[SPEAKER_00]: But if we stay back and hold the unconditional loving witness, we can often see the value of the other part, all the different parts that are rising.
47:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we invite them out and hold them with unconditional love.
47:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And that allows the person that we're working with to go, oh,
47:23
[SPEAKER_00]: What if I held that with unconditional love and then often that's what leads to the transformation just holding this other part that's been marginalized with unconditional love often leads to a transformation in and of itself.
47:37
[SPEAKER_00]: But as these parts can start looking at each other and holding each other with unconditional love, now instead of being enemies, they get closer and closer together.
47:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And a couple things can happen.
47:49
[SPEAKER_00]: One is they can just create this beautiful flow that they work well together with each other, so we're not in disturbance anymore.
47:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Or they actually integrate into one being and there's no division there anymore at all.
48:01
[SPEAKER_00]: they've become whole, they've only balanced themselves out into one being.
48:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And so this is how parts work leads to healing, and the dissolution of parts.
48:15
[SPEAKER_00]: So when we have a lot of parts, those are boundaries again.
48:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember, there's a boundary between this part and this part.
48:21
[SPEAKER_00]: So those boundaries dissolve.
48:23
[SPEAKER_00]: the flow, information systems flow, whether it be energy, spirituality, intellect, emotion, whatever we want to call house information systems can flow fluently.
48:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And now we are walking in a state of wholeness and dynamic fluid awareness in any given moment because the boundaries of dissolved and things have integrated.
48:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I had spoken to quite a few people about this very topic and sounds like you take the view that these parts actually can integrate and that we can live more from this dynamic fluid sense of self.
49:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, you know, because I've heard other people have said, no, I don't think that's possible.
49:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I think parts, um, we're always in a part, sometimes we're in more enlightened parts and sometimes not.
49:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And, um, but parts just remain and, you know, maybe kind of work with us more.
49:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I can ask from personal experience and from my clients that that's absolutely not true.
49:28
[SPEAKER_00]: If you argue for your limitations, I guess they're true, but you know, no, you can absolutely integrate parts, dissolved parts have parts evolve and grow up so that they become more enlightened and then integrate, there's all kinds of ways to work with parts so that there's an integration and and if you when when we do that, again, what happens is,
49:54
[SPEAKER_00]: The more we do that, what happens when information comes in, it flows to the whole system universally, without it being contained in one part, so that all our whole being just operating from a holistic, whole consciousness orientation.
50:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, am I saying that?
50:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I am at a place where I never have a part of rice.
50:19
[SPEAKER_00]: No, there are still times where a part will arise.
50:22
[SPEAKER_00]: But I can tell you that parts used to arise, never arise anymore.
50:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
50:29
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not done that with every single part that I ever have.
50:33
[SPEAKER_00]: But I can say I've done it with a vast majority of them where they just don't arise anymore.
50:39
[SPEAKER_00]: they're just not there.
50:40
[SPEAKER_00]: It's more of a whole consciousness where those used to be parts.
50:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that was the case I made to this person too, that, hey, you know, I just look at my own life and I just am way less reactive than I used to be and things that used to bother me don't.
50:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm wondering about, you know, so you've talked about parts work with the split state so that, so there's an integration that can take place
51:09
[SPEAKER_01]: And do you think could it be that there is a part that was split off and, you know, repressed and is not allowed to be around that's polarized with another part.
51:22
[SPEAKER_01]: So we actually do the work and that part is allowed to speak and be seen and met with this unconditional love you're talking about and actually that is the expression taking place.
51:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Or are you talking, you know, with interjects that actually there's a different, also a different kind of letting go there.
51:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
51:49
[SPEAKER_01]: What modality might be the best there.
51:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
51:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Great.
51:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Great example.
51:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
51:54
[SPEAKER_00]: So all the modalities are good.
51:58
[SPEAKER_00]: They all have value.
51:59
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just, are they applied to the right style?
52:03
[SPEAKER_00]: right?
52:04
[SPEAKER_00]: So if I do an expressive therapy with a projection, I'm actually going to make the projection worse.
52:09
[SPEAKER_00]: If I say, Joel's a bad guy, and then I start expressing all my anger and rage at Joel, I'm actually just going to make my projection worse.
52:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not taking any ownership, right?
52:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So expressive therapies with projections are actually harmful.
52:23
[SPEAKER_00]: They cause harm, internally and independently.
52:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And ownership techniques are harmful if we use them with an interject, because if I absorb them, false truth, and then I take ownership with that, I'm actually embedding that even deeper into my psyche.
52:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm making it worse.
52:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm actually causing more harm.
52:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And if I try to integrate it with integration techniques, now I'm even bearing it even further, right?
52:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm bearing a further into my psyche.
52:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Now what you're saying is very interesting, do have parts that are suppressed and so I use an expressive therapy with a part.
52:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, absolutely.
52:59
[SPEAKER_00]: We want to have every part have its voice heard and it can express itself and sometimes it needs to vent because it's been suppressed for so long.
53:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So we allow it to vent.
53:10
[SPEAKER_00]: But we do that in a way with wisdom where we go what's venting and how much of what it's venting is a distortion, how much of a venting is telling a deeper truth to the other part.
53:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we have to tease that out and go, okay, this is the distortion.
53:24
[SPEAKER_00]: We're gonna let it release that.
53:26
[SPEAKER_00]: But this is the truth that it's holding.
53:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And when it's truth is held with unconditional love and both parts can hold that truth and they can hold the unconditional love for each other.
53:36
[SPEAKER_00]: That's when the healing starts happening.
53:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is beautiful when we do that work with people that these parts just start, that used to be like mortal enemies, like at each other's strokes just, all right?
53:49
[SPEAKER_00]: They just start coming together and they just have this beautiful sacred relationship with each other now and they're absolutely in love with each other where they used to be like mortal enemies and it's a beautiful experience.
54:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess I'm wondering what the difference between a part and an interject is, because what people might say, oh, there's a part of me that's kind of absorbed some negative internal idea about myself, is I am I holding that an interject in the right way there, that
54:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's just, that's just become a part.
54:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I can actually make that part conscious and by giving it some space to talk.
54:30
[SPEAKER_01]: And it by being seen fully unconditionally may release.
54:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that, but that, yeah, I'm guess you're saying that's, it's not a part an interject.
54:40
[SPEAKER_00]: The interject aspect is not a part.
54:43
[SPEAKER_00]: but often a part of ourselves, or pretty much always, a part of ourselves is holding that interject, right?
54:51
[SPEAKER_00]: So I might have a part of me that learned how to adapt to that and maybe dad was cruel and told me I was worthless.
55:00
[SPEAKER_00]: So I had to absorb that and so that I could create interpersonal peace
55:07
[SPEAKER_00]: that the cost of intra-personal disturbance, okay?
55:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And that made a balance occur in the interpersonal relationship that helped me to survive.
55:17
[SPEAKER_00]: A part of me held on to that for survival.
55:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So the part that held on to that is genuine inside of me and what was its positive intent?
55:25
[SPEAKER_00]: It's positive intent was to make sure I didn't get hit by dad, maybe, right?
55:29
[SPEAKER_00]: So that ego stayed out of positive intent and its strategy was to absorb the interject from dad,
55:36
[SPEAKER_00]: so that I didn't get so much bad stuff from dad, right?
55:41
[SPEAKER_00]: That was the strategy.
55:43
[SPEAKER_00]: What happens is the parts inside start identifying with their strategy because it occurred so early in life.
55:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And they think they are their strategy rather than their positive intent.
55:54
[SPEAKER_00]: They've lost the positive intent.
55:55
[SPEAKER_00]: They've lost consciousness of the positive intent.
55:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're only conscious of their strategy.
56:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And then sometimes they even lose consciousness of the strategy.
56:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's all just happening in our unconscious, right?
56:06
[SPEAKER_00]: So what we do is we bring consciousness to the strategy and then we get below the strategy to the positive intent and then they can release the strategy which was holding onto the interject.
56:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And now the interject releases and now there's freedom.
56:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And now the part can just be genuinely its own true part from its own authentic dynamic, not from a distortion from the interject.
56:31
[SPEAKER_01]: So what was the example you gave?
56:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Was it like I'm not worthy?
56:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't remember with the father.
56:38
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like maybe I'm not worthy.
56:41
[SPEAKER_00]: So I have need to be need to be submissive, you know?
56:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Or something.
56:46
[SPEAKER_01]: So maybe a part is formed and it's,
56:50
[SPEAKER_01]: it's positive intent might be what to have peace, or is that the strategy this?
56:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the positive intent is to be safe, maybe, right, be safe.
57:03
[SPEAKER_00]: If you want to make you safe, my strategy is to submit and submit all my own autonomy and all my own initiative and just submit.
57:14
[SPEAKER_01]: beautiful.
57:15
[SPEAKER_01]: So then by working with that part, you are able to kind of access that positive intent safety.
57:22
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a natural sense of safety, which, which is back on my, yeah, and that.
57:29
[SPEAKER_01]: The, the interject is still important to me in the sense of, well, like, what would be a good expressive, there, you know, what would be an example of an expressive therapy,
57:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so if I have the interject, it's like let's just take this one, I need to submit my own autonomy and my own initiative to my father otherwise I'll get harmed.
57:57
[SPEAKER_00]: So what I need to do is this part is learned to not share any truth about itself, it doesn't even know it's own autonomy.
58:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And so what we do is we go in and create a safe, unconditional loving experience and then
58:13
[SPEAKER_00]: No, for example.
58:14
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I don't want to.
58:15
[SPEAKER_00]: It has the right to say no.
58:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Like how many people are in relationships and they feel like they don't even have the right to say no, for example.
58:23
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
58:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So all of a sudden it might just say, no, I have the right to say, no, I have the right to say, no, I have the right to do what I want, sometimes I don't even know what I want, but I have the right to do what I want.
58:36
[SPEAKER_00]: So now it's expressing itself, right?
58:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, well, what do you want?
58:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I, I just want to go play.
58:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, well, how would you like to go play?
58:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I want to go.
58:45
[SPEAKER_00]: play in a meadow with balloons and I want to bat them around with friends so we allow them to go play in their mind in a meadow with balloons and bat them around with friends.
58:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And now they're being able to express their autonomy and their initiative and they're being expressive but they're being expressive in a healthy way fulfilling the true desire which is safety and community rather than the strategy which is suppressed yourself so that you don't get
59:16
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm creating safety now through beauty, connection, authenticity, rather than safety through suppression avoidance, fear, contraction, rigidity.
59:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And like the reason why I'm asking so many questions for people listening to, you know, it's like, well, as you keep going on about, you know, the kind of into the detail is because, you know, my own interest is to learn about where something like parts work, you know, could actually work with, you know, the splits, ego states,
59:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And also, it could be a doorway into the releasing an introject, you know, through.
1:00:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And it sounds like, in this case, actually through the parts work, the part is able to express in a way that liberates its energy.
1:00:11
[SPEAKER_01]: And then that is doing expressive work in a, in a healthy way.
1:00:15
[SPEAKER_01]: It is.
1:00:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
1:00:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:00:20
[SPEAKER_01]: What is for you important in terms of the resolution of shadow?
1:00:27
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're going into the detail of, you know, how you would work on this internal process aware, kind of level of, with the interjects and the splits and the projections?
1:00:40
[SPEAKER_01]: What's important in them actually fully resolving?
1:00:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so the beautiful thing about projections is that when we're young, then we become empowered.
1:00:54
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't feel disempowered anymore.
1:00:57
[SPEAKER_00]: The beautiful thing about resolving interjects is we feel free.
1:01:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And the beautiful thing about working with parts and having them integrate is we feel aligned, we feel one, we feel whole.
1:01:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And the things that clear up are, with projections, I no longer feel disturbances outside of me, about things outside of me.
1:01:22
[SPEAKER_00]: If I feel disturbances with anything outside of me, there's a projection going on, some kind of a projection.
1:01:29
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't mean it's not, but you know, you've still, in fact, you have clearer assessment.
1:01:36
[SPEAKER_00]: because it's now being distorted by the projection.
1:01:38
[SPEAKER_00]: So when you own the projection, I'm not disturbed by that outside of me, and I have much more clarity about what's actually going on.
1:01:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Because the projection, I'm disturbed in the disturbance creates some kind of a constriction in anger or frustration or resentment.
1:01:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And now that distorts the way that I'm actually even seeing the event out there.
1:01:59
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just an event.
1:02:00
[SPEAKER_00]: All things are just events.
1:02:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm the one that turns them into a horrible thing or beautiful things or whatever.
1:02:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And so what happens is I feel empowered rather than disempowered because of all these events that are happening out there and I'm a victim to it.
1:02:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not saying people are victims to things, people are victims to it.
1:02:22
[SPEAKER_00]: But even if you take like Victor Frankel, for example, who lived in Auschwitz, you know, he was able to create, you know, a pretty beautiful mindset, even within the most horrible conditions.
1:02:33
[SPEAKER_00]: So for sitting in America, you know, or Europe, or, you know, we have running hot water and her roof over our head.
1:02:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, Victor Frank might be an inspirational figure to say, how much healing you can, you don't have to be a victim to all of this stuff out there.
1:02:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's an example, a historical example of how powerful the mind is to come to a place of peace, no even in when you are a victim.
1:03:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the difference is, am I a victim or am I playing victimhood?
1:03:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Am I playing being a victim or am I a victim?
1:03:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And if I am a victim,
1:03:11
[SPEAKER_00]: healthy in my consciousness, I don't feel victimhood.
1:03:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a victim.
1:03:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure, I've been a victim.
1:03:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I was abused.
1:03:19
[SPEAKER_00]: But I am not in victimhood.
1:03:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not milking the world to give me comfort for my victimhood.
1:03:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm healed.
1:03:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm a victim, but I...
1:03:33
[SPEAKER_00]: So what?
1:03:34
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I can just...
1:03:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Just to go into the weeds a little bit with the own in projection dynamic, presumably there's like two aspects to that, or I'm wondering, should I say, one is like the kind of immediate practice of
1:03:55
[SPEAKER_01]: recognizing in the moment in a way that you're describing like, oh, I'm feeling disturbed by something out there, there's a projection.
1:04:04
[SPEAKER_01]: And I want to ask you about that practice.
1:04:08
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's that, but then there's that that my invite is into deeper work, you know, maybe with parts again or that need to, you know, needs to happen in order to be able for that projection to fully be owned again.
1:04:25
[SPEAKER_00]: a beautiful inside channel that's exactly what happens is a projection is a part of myself that I've put out there once I take it back the part is now inside of me and now I have to do or I have invited to do my parts work, my ego state work and
1:04:44
[SPEAKER_00]: It's very likely that because I projected it out there, that it got projected out because of an interject, that cost so much pain and suffering, I couldn't hold it anymore, so I put it out there.
1:04:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I re-own that, now the part,
1:05:00
[SPEAKER_00]: can start seeing the interject that it's lived, it's whole life, the lie that it's lived, and it can release the lie, and now it can get back to its authentic being.
1:05:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And now when it's got its authentic being, now we can start doing integration work.
1:05:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is the problem that occurs a lot of times Joel is, people will see parks and they'll start trying to do some kind of an integration work without releasing the interjects first, or getting full empowerment back from the projections.
1:05:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And so what we're doing is we're integrating, again, integrating in an interject, which is causing harm.
1:05:31
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a shadow-sided shadow work, or we're creating a disempowered integration, which is not so good either.
1:05:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is the subtle dynamics and shadow-shadow work that is often not seen and leads to the shadow-sided shadow work.
1:05:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm doing unhealthy integration.
1:05:52
[SPEAKER_00]: and we inadvertently are causing harm.
1:05:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's one of the things that is important for us.
1:05:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, all of us in the transformational arts fields, you know, what we want to do is we want to help when we want to heal.
1:06:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And so what we do is we project that we are creating healing, golden projection onto our session.
1:06:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, look how good I did.
1:06:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I helped this person heal, but we don't always take time to go, how did I cause harm?
1:06:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And so one of the things we do in medicine, for example, is we say the number to treat in the number of harm, you know, how many of these treatments
1:06:30
[SPEAKER_00]: like if I do like a Cuminant for example, the number to treat might be, I don't know what the numbers are.
1:06:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I have to give Cuminant to five people to get one to heal, but Cuminant guarantees you're gonna die.
1:06:46
[SPEAKER_00]: If you take Cuminant, you will die in 20 or 30 years.
1:06:49
[SPEAKER_00]: But I feel maybe four people out of five and they've lived 20 to 30 more years better and so that's good.
1:06:57
[SPEAKER_00]: You know different medicines have different numbers to heal and numbers to harm and then how long it takes to cause the harm for the harm to action manifest.
1:07:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So for example, if I'm in a session with a client, I might get an immediate, oh, I feel so good.
1:07:12
[SPEAKER_00]: But how come they felt good?
1:07:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Because maybe I indulged something that maybe didn't need to be indulged.
1:07:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And so they got an immediate hit of good, but that just leads to more disturbance down the road because I reinforced an interject that actually matched my interject that I haven't healed yet.
1:07:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm supporting their interject and then they feel heard, but then later on,
1:07:35
[SPEAKER_00]: So, one of the courageous things that we can do is transformational artists playing off of your words and honoring you as we can take a look at how might I be causing harm?
1:07:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Do I have the courage to even look at that, kind of stop projecting my golden desire onto the session and just start looking at it deeply, honestly, deeply authentically.
1:08:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And now I can start seeing, it's only when we do that, that we can start seeing, oh, whoa, look what I just did here, actually caused harm.
1:08:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when I work with the people that are under me, in my understudies that are going through the mentorship course, you know, I'll say, hey, look, you got a great healing in this session, but you cause harm here, here, and here, and can we now do the session and get that good result
1:08:32
[SPEAKER_01]: beautiful invitation.
1:08:35
[SPEAKER_01]: So on one level I can hear there's a real importance for like dedicating yourself both to your own inner healing work and also to your understanding of the territory.
1:08:48
[SPEAKER_01]: What are some of the most, I mean in a way I know our whole conversation has been about the ways we can create harm.
1:08:54
[SPEAKER_01]: But what are some of the ways you commonly see people
1:08:59
[SPEAKER_01]: calming others is it?
1:09:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:09:01
[SPEAKER_01]: For example, projecting, you know, their experience on to the climb and, yeah, no, projection is a big one.
1:09:10
[SPEAKER_01]: So first of all, how do we know we're harming?
1:09:12
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the, that's the, that's the other question.
1:09:14
[SPEAKER_01]: How do we know we're harming?
1:09:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I super.
1:09:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:09:17
[SPEAKER_00]: So.
1:09:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Tans are the first question, we cause harm in so many different ways.
1:09:21
[SPEAKER_00]: One is that, like I said, there's three directions of healing, and there's three classes of shadow work, and we get the direction wrong.
1:09:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe we're really good at integration works, we integrate everything, so we're integrating interjects, and we're causing harm, and we don't even know it, because we're getting the integration, and there is benefit from the integration, but we're also causing harm by embedding an interject deeper into the psyche
1:09:48
[SPEAKER_00]: So we cause harm by getting the direction of treatment wrong based upon the class of healing that needs to be happening and not getting the sequence right like you need to really Santergex before you do the integration otherwise you cause harm for example if you do your projection work before you do integration you actually empower it So it actually heals better and stronger and you don't have this project and it keeps disempowering the actual work that you did in other words Wow it feels good today in this session, but next week they come back and it's the same problem because
1:10:18
[SPEAKER_00]: it was disempowered.
1:10:19
[SPEAKER_00]: We never pulled the power back to actually help it to hold.
1:10:23
[SPEAKER_00]: The other thing is how we project onto the session, like we said, we project that we want to heal so bad that we project that we did cost healing, and we're not actually seeing it, and we're not seeing the harm that we cost.
1:10:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And another way is that we project onto the client
1:10:46
[SPEAKER_00]: being sexually abused by their dad.
1:10:48
[SPEAKER_00]: This is actually a real-life example.
1:10:51
[SPEAKER_00]: What's the natural thing for us to do?
1:10:53
[SPEAKER_00]: We go, oh my God, you poor woman.
1:10:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so sorry that you're sexually abused by your dad.
1:10:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And we go into all this empathy and everything like that.
1:11:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, one thing that you might not know about sexual abuse but often, the person who is sexually abused by the perpetrator, that's actually their closest relationship
1:11:15
[SPEAKER_00]: that they were driven into that.
1:11:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And so
1:11:19
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not uncommon for people working with sexual abuse, for example, to do this empathetic thing.
1:11:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my God, you poor thing, Dad, so evil, blah, blah, blah, you know, let's rescue you from that.
1:11:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And then they go, screw you, Dad was the closest relationship I had.
1:11:33
[SPEAKER_00]: My mom was a horror show.
1:11:35
[SPEAKER_00]: She tortured me psychologically.
1:11:37
[SPEAKER_00]: She never touched me physically, but psychologically, it was a shit show and I never felt loved by her.
1:11:42
[SPEAKER_00]: The only time I felt loved was when Dad was really close to me and he was kind, he was gently, he was loving.
1:11:47
[SPEAKER_00]: and that's the only thing, that's the only love I have to hold on to, you know, you're fired, you know, and this is a real-life example from a professional trauma work professional that shared this storyline and how she learned that, oh my gosh, we are missing the boat when we really look at trauma.
1:12:10
[SPEAKER_00]: It's an easy thing to do is to project our empathy onto a person in a way that distorts their actual experience.
1:12:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And so what we're learning here is that there is trauma bonding and trauma bonding often occurs in a situation where a person is a lack of love and a lack of connection and other kinds of hostility.
1:12:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And but the person bonds to another person with another type of trauma that doesn't feel as traumatic.
1:12:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we bond to the actual person that's causing us trauma because it's the healthiest choice we have
1:12:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:12:48
[SPEAKER_01]: So in a way what I'm hearing is like, if you're also offering your opinion, like I use the word like opinion really like on things as well and reacting to what's been brought even in empathy.
1:13:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, even in empathy.
1:13:08
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's actually a way that we can actually train ourselves to be just attuned to what's arising and just in a way we're not caught in our own personality structures.
1:13:23
[SPEAKER_01]: I needing to be empathic or challenge needing to challenge whatever might come up, but we're just in a kind of flow state.
1:13:33
[SPEAKER_01]: with our clients.
1:13:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And we can kind of bring the right kind of acupressure point response to what's arising in the moment, which then allows the next sequence to unfold.
1:13:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm hearing with the interjects and projections, it's interesting, it's like, you know, projections, you take back, and interjects, you kind of take out, you know, it's like there's an interesting balance taking place and, and then there's integration, which, so yeah.
1:14:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I let it not be said, Kim said, don't be empathetic.
1:14:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, we are empathetic.
1:14:13
[SPEAKER_00]: We just have to be careful how much we project empathy in a certain style onto our client.
1:14:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:14:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:14:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Empathy is important.
1:14:24
[SPEAKER_00]: It's part of unconditional love.
1:14:26
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's important that the empathy doesn't have a structural bias to it.
1:14:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:14:32
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't project that structural bias of the empathy onto our client.
1:14:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
1:14:37
[SPEAKER_00]: It's true that empathy of unconditional love, right?
1:14:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Which means I can unconditionally hear whatever you have to say and your perspective on it, which is not mine.
1:14:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And I guess like you can't even be saying with the words, it's really the energy isn't it?
1:14:56
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like because I might say to someone,
1:14:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, might not come from that structural empty, like, I'm really sorry that happened, you know, right, and it might, that might land in a very different way than if it is and I say, I'm really sorry that happened to you and, but that's that's full of that projection and it is because they might be sorry that happened.
1:15:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:15:19
[SPEAKER_00]: He's looking for someone who can actually hear them.
1:15:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, right, because if you go to a psychotherapist or a coach or anything and you say, hey, I was sexually abused.
1:15:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Most people are going to say, oh my god, I'm so sorry that happened to you, right?
1:15:33
[SPEAKER_00]: That's that's a very normal response, but they might be looking for someone who can actually hold that they're not sorry it happened.
1:15:39
[SPEAKER_00]: because there are some people that are grateful for what they had, you know?
1:15:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And that doesn't mean that it's healthy, but they need someone who can hold that breadth of understanding that this is a complex situation.
1:15:52
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not black and white.
1:15:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And presumably,
1:15:57
[SPEAKER_01]: be attuned so that in a way this is not about like absorbing more and more tools and conceptual maps that now I have to be like okay like can I assess this it you know and it you're burdened by the way and actually it creates more distance but I think the same way that like coaching methodologies and theories can create distance from actually so presumably it's
1:16:26
[SPEAKER_01]: on a very subtle level here, and that atonement is guiding the response that I bring in a way that allows the process to keep unfolding.
1:16:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And do you think that I feel like, especially as AI comes in, and it might be we could say this about it might even direct us back to what it means to be human on a very fundamental level,
1:16:52
[SPEAKER_01]: That's, our minds are beautiful things, but if we just live in an abstracted, disconnected, kind of reified sense of understanding the world, my sense is this is an edge for our field, like refining that subtle sense of attunement and capacity to even
1:17:19
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a field that's created and that field that we hold is transformational without any imposition on the client.
1:17:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, maybe in the future, there'll be sessions where people don't even say anything to each other.
1:17:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Why do my sessions are almost silent?
1:17:41
[SPEAKER_00]: There's maybe because what
1:17:45
[SPEAKER_00]: What I do is I attuned to what's going on with the person, and then I do a targeted reflection or a targeted interview.
1:17:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And if it's really targeted accurately, they'll sit and they'll ponder that.
1:18:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes for 20 minutes before they say anything.
1:18:04
[SPEAKER_00]: It's working, you know?
1:18:06
[SPEAKER_00]: If it's just a dialogue, it's just a dialogue.
1:18:08
[SPEAKER_00]: But if I make that just right, it wakes them up, and they go, oh,
1:18:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you can just see all this stuff working inside of them.
1:18:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're just in silence for 20 or 30 minutes.
1:18:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been in silence for like 50 minutes with somebody.
1:18:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And at the end, they just go, oh my God, all this unfolded, and all this happened in blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
1:18:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So I agree with you that often, and I think the future, so I go there, because there's not going to be a lot less talking.
1:18:32
[SPEAKER_00]: There's going to be a lot more happening and a lot less talking.
1:18:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Because a lot of times back to what you said, as we interact and converse with our clients,
1:18:43
[SPEAKER_00]: part of their worldview, which is what AI does.
1:18:46
[SPEAKER_00]: You type into AI and say, oh, I have this idea, blah, blah, blah, blah, and AI said, oh, you're so brilliant.
1:18:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't believe you came up with such a brilliant idea.
1:18:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's how we can help you do that, and it's bullshit.
1:18:56
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just complete, you know, brown noseing.
1:18:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the algorithm of AI is to brown nose you to make you feel amazing so that you use it more, right?
1:19:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's how they make money.
1:19:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And so,
1:19:08
[SPEAKER_00]: People think AI is giving you the truth.
1:19:10
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not necessarily giving you the truth.
1:19:11
[SPEAKER_00]: The way they make money is to create an algorithm that makes you feel like you're special and amazing.
1:19:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we're being held basically, hostage or victimhood to our own narcissism is the AI indulges how amazing we are.
1:19:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's really important that we have human beings that have the courage to step outside of the redefining process because it's kind of courageous to tell a client, I'm not sure.
1:19:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's take a different look at this.
1:19:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe we can look at this differently.
1:19:45
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, maybe there's another way to explore this, you know, my dad's so bad or my mom's so bad.
1:19:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Boba, Boba, Boba, Boba, Boba, Boba, Boba, okay, let's let that vent a little bit.
1:19:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, maybe we have the courage to look a little deeper here, right?
1:20:00
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, maybe they were that bad, but maybe maybe something happened that we can work on in heal.
1:20:06
[SPEAKER_00]: So sometimes it's a courageous step where we're not necessarily in alignment with our client, like we're kind of taught being alignment with your client.
1:20:15
[SPEAKER_00]: But I would say back to more what you said, be in a tunement with your client, but not necessarily always in alignment because I could be aligning with a shadow process rather than healing process.
1:20:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's, I think that's a key difference.
1:20:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have a few more minutes where I a lot of time so we can end, but I sure, yeah, do you like five, so yeah, because I want to ask a question about, um, therefore, the what is the question it's like,
1:20:57
[SPEAKER_01]: the value in, you know, even working on a kind of like subtle cellular level with clients, with their healing.
1:21:09
[SPEAKER_01]: So, for example, the value of
1:21:12
[SPEAKER_01]: then closing their eyes, even and being in an imaginal experience or guiding them into their subtle sensing experience.
1:21:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I know there's value in that already.
1:21:26
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's not really the question.
1:21:27
[SPEAKER_01]: The question is like, you know, even like an imaginal, shamanic type.
1:21:36
[SPEAKER_01]: intervention with somebody, yeah, I've got it.
1:21:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I've been gone into cells in my body, and then it's almost as if I've seen what it's like in that cell, you know, in my mind's eye, and there's like kind of like, how come he taking place?
1:21:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
1:21:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, as you know, or maybe I don't know, I think you know, that I did my master's thesis on shamanism as a psychotherapeutic technique, and
1:22:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I absolutely find value in that.
1:22:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I find value in all the techniques, by the way.
1:22:06
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, what you're describing is a shamanic depth practice.
1:22:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So we can have shamanic depth practices.
1:22:11
[SPEAKER_00]: We can have shamanic breath practices.
1:22:13
[SPEAKER_00]: We can have shamanic height practices.
1:22:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And we can have shamanic underworld practices, which modern psychotherapy doesn't even recognize.
1:22:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And we haven't even talked about.
1:22:23
[SPEAKER_00]: But what you're talking about is as we go in deeper and deeper into the nuances this is our depth work and we can go right into the cell and feel the functioning of the cell or the bone and the bone marrow or the you know the nuances of the muscles more coming back up out of the cell right we can go down into our muscles how the muscles and the tendons and the joints and the bones.
1:22:47
[SPEAKER_00]: and the cellular structure, and that's this beautiful nuanced depth work, which, and we're aware if we bring it with unconditional love, that can just just that framework can actually induce the healing.
1:22:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes we find these very nuanced splits, right, that we can integrate, these very nuanced interjects that we can release, these very nuanced projections that we can re-own.
1:23:11
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, and so the deeper we go, the more refined it is.
1:23:13
[SPEAKER_00]: So when we're doing shadow work often, we get the big growth stuff at first, the big stuff, you know, and then we get more nuanced and more nuanced and more nuanced and sometimes we're in the in the cellular structure, like you said, just finding these micron nuances and it's so refined and so
1:23:39
[SPEAKER_00]: these aspects of ourselves.
1:23:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like we could keep talking for a long time and you know I do I'd love to talk with you about some of the shamanic dimensions you talked about some time.
1:23:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just wondering like is it and you might answer this as briefly or you know broadly as you like but what do you think is
1:24:06
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you think transformational practitioners and artists are being invited to evolve to respond to our times?
1:24:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think there's a couple of things.
1:24:20
[SPEAKER_00]: They're being invited in multiple directions, not all of them are healthy ones.
1:24:24
[SPEAKER_00]: One is they're being invited to indulge the person's current worldview, because that's what sells.
1:24:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you can do that, right?
1:24:33
[SPEAKER_00]: you won't heal a lot of people, but they'll feel good and they'll feel company and we'll indulge will reify their belief system.
1:24:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And those kind are going to be easily replaced by AI.
1:24:46
[SPEAKER_00]: More and more I think AI companions will be able to do that very well.
1:24:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think we're being invited.
1:24:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I think on the leading edge of conscious, we're being invited into the leading edge of conscious into what you were talking about.
1:25:02
[SPEAKER_00]: The leading edge at nuance, a depth, the leading edge at breadth, the leading edge at height, is where we're being invited now.
1:25:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And so if you take a look at developmental psychology, the evolution of our consciousness to higher and higher capacities to understand and observe and experience the world, there's a lot of energy and invitation into that.
1:25:29
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of invitation into the depth work.
1:25:31
[SPEAKER_00]: There's not as much invitation on the breath work side yet, but I think it's coming.
1:25:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And ultimately we want to pair all three of these, you know, so that we grow up healthy like a balloon, we don't just grow up like, oh, I'm in this enlightened state, but, you know, as soon as, you know, like you see all these people that came over from India that had these really high enlightened states, but they bought a, you know, 50 Mercedes bands and they slept with.
1:26:02
[SPEAKER_00]: their students and all of this stuff.
1:26:04
[SPEAKER_00]: They didn't have the capacity outside of being alone in a monk, you know, and an awesher arm or something, you know, to actually be able to navigate the world skillfully outside of that.
1:26:15
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a lack of breath work.
1:26:19
[SPEAKER_00]: and so our breath work allows us to operate with grace throughout the entire social network.
1:26:27
[SPEAKER_00]: The entire inter-personal work and the entire inter-personal dynamic system with grace.
1:26:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's a lot of beauty in that.
1:26:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that our society is missing that because there's a lot of celebration of the specialization
1:26:48
[SPEAKER_00]: of humanity because of coming out of the industrial age, we need to specialize.
1:26:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And even in the information age, we need to specialize because generalists are, you know, there's not a market for a generalist.
1:27:03
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to specialize.
1:27:04
[SPEAKER_00]: But as a human, we are generalists.
1:27:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Our consciousness is more healthy when it's whole.
1:27:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that's going to be the invitation of leading edge transformational artists is whole consciousness.
1:27:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's beautiful.
1:27:23
[SPEAKER_01]: That fits for me with what I'm feeling with many people.
1:27:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, who are quite mature in the field.
1:27:28
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like the way that the limited role of coach or therapists is too small.
1:27:36
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I want to serve the whole human being.
1:27:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And
1:27:39
[SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, it really feels resonant.
1:27:43
[SPEAKER_01]: What you share, yeah, Kim.
1:27:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I just want to say thanks.
1:27:47
[SPEAKER_01]: It's been as usual.
1:27:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I just love our conversations and I know people listening will want to check out the awesome work you're doing training people as well.
1:27:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Where can we find out about that?
1:27:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you can go to converted.org and I have free shadow assessment there.
1:28:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a free relationship assessment there.
1:28:08
[SPEAKER_00]: You can take my courses, you can get personal training from me.
1:28:16
[SPEAKER_00]: To, in fact, my shadow course is just closing in the next week or two.
1:28:22
[SPEAKER_00]: So if they want to get into the yearlong shadow course,
1:28:24
[SPEAKER_00]: where you do a lot of personal work and then you're set up to actually become a mentor for others.
1:28:31
[SPEAKER_00]: After that, then the next course is the mentorship course.
1:28:35
[SPEAKER_00]: They could hop into that and get in just before closes.
1:28:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Beautiful.
1:28:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:28:42
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
1:28:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks.
1:28:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you very much, Jill.
1:28:45
[SPEAKER_00]: It was great.
1:28:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Great interacting with you as always.
1:28:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Here we are.
1:28:49
[SPEAKER_01]: We're at the end of the podcast.
1:28:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Just a heads up again.
1:28:52
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're not on our mailing list and you want to stay in the loop about other things we create, then head to coaches rising dot com put your name in the sign up box there.
1:29:01
[SPEAKER_01]: You'll also find some of our other offerings online trainings for coaches there and just want to end by wishing you well and I'll see you again next time.