Latest / The FIT4Privacy Podcast | Exploring ISO Standards AI Privacy | Grow Skills Store / Future of Privacy in the AI Age plus Navigating Data and Trust with Nicola Fabiano and Punit Bhatia in the FIT4PRIVACY Podcast E151 S07

Transcript

Future of Privacy in the AI Age plus Navigating Data and Trust with Nicola Fabiano and Punit Bhatia in the FIT4PRIVACY Podcast E151 S07 · The FIT4Privacy Podcast | Exploring ISO Standards AI Privacy | Grow Skills Store

0:00
The future of AI and privacy? Or maybe the future of privacy
0:05
in an AI age? And how do you navigate data and
0:09
trust in this age? Well, there are many opinions,
0:12
many thoughts, many perspectives on this.
0:15
And I have the pleasure and privilege of interviewing the
0:19
author of Artificial Intelligence, Neural Networks
0:22
and Privacy, my dear friend and colleague, Nicola Fabiano, who
0:27
is privacy professional now, an AI author also, he wrote
0:31
Deparamo and he also wrote the inputs into or the forward into
0:36
my book, AI and Privacy, of course, mine and Indian Sheva's
0:39
book. So let's go and talk to Nikola
0:43
and understand how does he see the future, say in 2045 or 50,
0:48
what are these neural networks and how do you strike a balance
0:52
and what does this book contain? And as you do that, or as we do
0:55
that together with Nikola, I encourage you to visit
0:58
www.growthskills.store for ISO related trainings.
1:02
And of course, contact us if you need any help in context of
1:06
privacy and AI. Let's go.
1:15
Hello and welcome to the Fit for Privacy podcast with Punit
1:19
Bhatia. This is the podcast for those
1:21
who care about their privacy. Here, your host, Poonit Bhatia
1:25
has conversations with industry leaders about their
1:28
perspectives, ideas, and opinions relating to privacy,
1:31
data protection, and related matters.
1:34
Be aware that the views and opinions expressed in this
1:36
podcast are not legal advice. Let us get started.
1:44
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Fit for Privacy
1:47
podcast. And today we are with Nicola
1:49
Fabiano. Welcome Nicola to the Fit for
1:51
Privacy podcast. Hello everyone, thank you very
1:55
much Punit for this wonderful opportunity.
1:59
Here I am. It's a pleasure to have you.
2:02
For those of you who have been following us from day one,
2:05
Nicola has been there a couple of times and especially he was
2:09
there the 1st guest on our podcast in Episode 1.
2:12
So since Nicola, you've been in the past, I ask you a futuristic
2:17
question. If we look forward to 2045 or
2:21
2050, we know it'll be all digital, it'll be all tech,
2:25
it'll be all probably AI or maybe even quantum.
2:28
How would you see the future in 2045 and 50 or 45 or 50?
2:35
Well, thank you for your question.
2:38
I do not have the crystal ball, but I'll try to to say
2:43
something. So my point of view, I think
2:48
that by 20452050 will inhibit a world where digital technology
2:57
is deeply integrated into every aspects of life.
3:03
Yeah, the transformation will be fundamentally about argumenting
3:08
rather than replacing the human experience.
3:12
The boundaries between physical and digital realms will blur
3:17
Stanley, creating hybrid environments where
3:22
biotechnology, nanotechnology, and digital systems merge to
3:28
produce solution we can barely imagine today.
3:33
This integration will manifest as pervasive computing
3:38
environments that respond intuitively to human needs while
3:44
maintaining the irreducible aspects of human existence.
3:49
The transition will be marketed by the emergence of ambient
3:55
intelligence, computing power that exists all around us,
4:00
embedded in our environments, yet invisible and non intrusive.
4:07
That will create a new paradigm where technology becomes a
4:12
natural extension of human intention rather than a separate
4:16
tool. We must consciously over it.
4:20
Well, I have also some points to underline like urban and
4:25
infrastructure revolution, technological integration.
4:28
And so may I go ahead so I I can better describe my point of view
4:37
related related to talking about urban and the infrastructure
4:41
revolution. I think that smart cities will
4:45
feature responsible, responsive infrastructure that adopts to
4:51
real time needs through purposive computing and ambient
4:55
intelligence, creating urban environments that learn and
5:00
evolve based on citizen behaviour and environmental
5:04
conditions. Transportation systems will be
5:08
revolution revolutionised by autonomous networks that
5:14
optimise routes in real time, reducing congestion and
5:18
emissions while improving safety and accessibility.
5:24
Urban planning will leverage AI to create more livable,
5:29
sustainable communities that balance human needs with the
5:33
environmental constraints. Infrastructure will become self
5:39
monitoring and self healing with embedded sensors detecting wear,
5:47
damage or inefficience before they become critical problems
5:53
regarding technological technological integration.
5:56
The continued expansions expression of the Internet of
6:01
Things advanced the robotics, quantum communication, edge
6:05
computing and real time simulation technologies will
6:09
enable seems seamless integration of physical and
6:13
digital domains across all aspects of human activity.
6:18
Digital twins of the human body and mutual replicates of social
6:23
systems will Co assist with traditional infrastructures,
6:28
creating highly personalised digital environments that
6:31
influence healthcare, education, governance and leisure.
6:37
Quantum communication networks will provide unprecedented
6:41
security and processing power, enabling real time global
6:45
coordination of complex systems while protecting privacy and
6:50
sensitive information regarding, for example, environmental and
6:56
energy solution. I think that sustainable energy
7:00
systems will be powered by advanced AI optimization with
7:05
smart grids, seamless integrating renovables, sources,
7:10
storage and consumption patterns to create highly efficient and
7:16
resilient energy networks. So, for example, agriculture
7:21
will be transformed the true precision farming techniques
7:28
that use sensors, drones and AI to optimise crop Shields with
7:34
while minimising environmental impact.
7:37
Ocean management systems will coordinate efforts to restore
7:41
marine ecosystems, monitor pollution levers and optimise
7:46
sustainable fishing practises. Atmospheric management
7:51
technologies will work to actively remove excess carbon
7:56
dioxide from the atmosphere while monitoring adjusting local
8:02
air quality in urban areas. And other point is economic and
8:06
social transformation work will be fundamentally redefined as a
8:12
high hand routine tasks, freeing humans to focus on creative,
8:18
strategic and interpersonal rules that require uniquely
8:24
human capable capabilities such as empathy, innovation and
8:28
complex problem solving. I think social safety Nets will
8:34
need to be reimagined to support workers through this transition,
8:41
including universal basic income or alternative economic models
8:47
that account for a highs productivity gains and ensure
8:53
that the benefits of technological advancement are
8:57
distributed equitability across society.
9:02
What about healthcare revolution?
9:05
I think that healthcare will be revolutionised through
9:09
personalised medicine that goes for behind current capabilities
9:14
with AI analysing genetic data, lifestyle factors, environmental
9:20
exposures and real time biometric information to prevent
9:25
disease before they manifest. I think that also mental health
9:31
support will be announced through a high companions and
9:36
therapeutic tools that provide 24/7 emotional support and early
9:45
intervention for mental health challenges.
9:48
What about preserving human agency?
9:51
Despite unprecedented technological integration,
9:54
certain aspects of life will remain irreducibly human.
9:59
So I don't think that AI can so can be the first thing and can
10:12
can became the so the aspect that prevailed human agency.
10:22
So I think that this fundamental human qualities cannot be easily
10:29
digitised or replaced by artificial intelligence and they
10:33
will become even more valuable as technology technology
10:38
continues to become more sophisticated.
10:41
Another point could be governance and globally impact
10:45
or geopolitics and climate crisis will significantly
10:51
influence digital developments, presenting both opportunities
10:55
and challenges for international cooperation and governance.
11:01
So I think that, yes, I think that there will be also other
11:05
aspects. New models of digital governance
11:08
will need to emerge that strike a balance between innovation and
11:13
regulation, privacy and security, and global
11:16
coordination and local autonomy. That will require the
11:20
development of new international institutions and agreements that
11:25
can adapt to rapidly evolving technological capabilities.
11:30
Cybersecurity will become a critical component of national
11:34
and the International Security, and the protection of digital
11:40
infrastructure and prevention of cyber warfare will be essential
11:45
for maintaining stability in an increasingly connected world.
11:51
Digital rights and freedom must be protected through new legal
11:55
frameworks that can keep pace can keep pace with technological
12:01
advancement or while preserving fundamental human rights and
12:05
democratic failures. The key will be maintaining
12:09
human agency and mindful connection despite technological
12:15
abundance, ensuring that technology serves human slow
12:20
sharing rather than replacing the human experience entirely.
12:25
I think that just to summarise some points, I I show you some
12:32
of the main what what they consider the main aspects of
12:39
this transition in the future. That was quite extensive.
12:46
So in that context, when you explain that it'll touch almost
12:50
every field of life and it'll be seamlessly integrated into our
12:54
day-to-day life, the question becomes if we are in the AI and
12:58
quantum age in a few years. I mean, AI is already here, but
13:02
the quantum age and the more proliferation of AI into our
13:05
lives, then the fundamental needs like the fundamental
13:10
rights, data privacy, or even the question on ethics.
13:14
But how would somebody balance this?
13:16
Because on one hand there's the human need, the fundamental
13:20
rights, the privacy, the ethics, and on the other hand, there's
13:23
the innovation, technological advancement, AI, quantum and so
13:26
on. How does one balance the two
13:28
dimension? Well, I think that we we should
13:33
we should pay attention to to the the fundamental rights and
13:39
also the aspects will be controlled.
13:44
We should control for me our fundamental rights and on same
13:51
side also headaches because our two the pillars of the of the
13:59
relation of the relationships between our work, our life and
14:06
the and artificial intelligence that they consider not a new a
14:14
new phenomenon because we are in the AI since several years and,
14:21
and so we we should pay attention to these aspects and
14:26
should be and we so we we we pay attention to do not prevail AI
14:35
artificial intelligence in general because we know as the
14:39
AAT states, there is no definition of artificial
14:44
intelligence, but the definition of artificial intelligence
14:47
systems. So we should pay attention to
14:50
how we develop new artificial intelligence systems.
14:55
And we know there are several models currently we know the
15:02
best known artificial intelligence systems are LLMS.
15:06
So we everybody probably knows some LLMS like Chachi PT, same
15:15
clothes. I'm like Gemini, like Co pilot.
15:21
I don't want to to to do a list of the LLMS, but these are I
15:29
think the main LLMS in terms of commercial one.
15:33
But we know there are also open source models that can use as on
15:44
so as LLM, so as artificial intelligence systems.
15:48
And however these architect, I want to underline that the
15:55
architecture used for these kind of lens is transformer.
16:01
But we know also there are other companies like let me mention
16:08
Liquid AI which which which which developed a new model, a
16:15
new LLM model based on a non transformer approach, but
16:24
considering mathematics and algebra.
16:27
So these will and the results are very, very relevant.
16:34
So it depends on what we can, I, I mean we, but not me and you
16:40
obviously. But what technicians would be
16:44
develop in the future where they want to arrive, what kind of
16:49
measures we or developers should consider?
16:57
Because we know there are some points like privacy or data
17:04
protection, cybersecurity that we cannot, we cannot machine
17:10
from them. And so these these are points
17:15
that we are that we are we, we should consider necessarily and
17:24
we cannot machine from them. I think that also, as I
17:29
mentioned, ethics is another point relevant point.
17:34
So we should ask ourselves, what if?
17:39
What is this? Is this behaviour is, is the
17:44
behaviour ethical? As this behaviour and ethical
17:50
approach is correct? Is it correct?
17:52
Because this is another relevant point.
17:55
But ethics opens another scenario reserved to
18:04
philosopher, psychologists and other professional categories.
18:11
So but is a very important part of our life.
18:16
I can mention my experience in participating in a very
18:23
important international conference of neural networks
18:29
where I had the opportunity to exchange points of view with
18:35
other, with scientists that work on neural networks.
18:40
And it's it was a very fruitful opportunity.
18:47
There is a word outside and we should know what, what is
18:53
happening in the, in this field of neural networks because we
19:01
probably discover the, the water in in 2045, but water exists.
19:12
So and we, we should follow these.
19:18
So these this evolution we should follow because we are
19:24
part of this, of this society and we, we have the, the.
19:31
So I think in my opinion, we have the duty to follow this,
19:34
this evolution. Yeah, it is true.
19:37
And do you think if I mean just asking out a hypothetical
19:42
question because you mentioned AI or technology will be
19:46
seamlessly integrated, if you have an option to embed a chip
19:49
in yourself, you would take it? Oh, personally, I, my so my, my
20:01
answer is personally not I will, I will, I will avoid this, this,
20:06
this opportunity because I continue thinking that we, we,
20:12
we are humans and we remain humans and I can understand
20:18
health sector. Medicine and something else
20:23
related to our health, but not anything to not considering
20:29
anything to, to that that will be particularly invasive in our
20:36
in our body. So I I think that our brain is
20:43
sufficient to to think, to understand, to act and to do
20:48
everything we we need in our life.
20:50
We don't need chips. So this is my point of view.
20:54
Makes sense, makes sense. I was just curious to understand
20:58
how did you mention neural networks?
21:00
You mentioned yes. But.
21:02
The neural networks and then privacy and then ethics.
21:05
So I was like, what would you do?
21:06
And yes. We also recently we just I just
21:11
want want to have that we know all the experiments carried out
21:18
by by neuro link is the the the mask the mask company and I
21:25
disagree with this practise and and so This is why I answer no,
21:32
I don't want any chip in my body.
21:35
Makes sense. Makes sense.
21:37
So you recently wrote a book about AI and privacy.
21:41
In fact, I have a copy on my desk, so this one that's so.
21:46
Nice. Yes, this one.
21:48
This one, Yes. Yes, of course.
21:52
So I wanted to ask you if because you talk about striking
21:56
a balance between innovation, knowledge, ethics and in the
21:59
digital age, so helps me first, I want to do it in two parts.
22:03
First, help me understand these digital neural networks, because
22:07
I've heard about the neural networks in the brain, but the
22:10
digital neural networks, what are they?
22:12
Oh, digital neural networks is something different from the
22:19
description of neural networks because we know that neural
22:24
networks are a system developed considering the our brain neural
22:36
network. So they are I mean, to simplify,
22:40
let me pass this this this this expression.
22:46
Digital neural networks is a kind of copy of approach, the
22:51
approach the of our brain to develop something that will be
22:59
more powerful in terms of software and also based on
23:08
particularly instrument like machine learning and deep
23:14
learning. This to summarise my short
23:18
description, but I want to let me introduce this topic with by
23:27
referring to to my previous work which is the Primo.
23:32
The Primo is the acronym of Data Protection and Privacy
23:37
Relationships model that I developed in 2020.
23:42
And I I when I so to this model, so I I, I describe a relational
24:00
architecture that demonstrates universal applicability.
24:05
And so the development of the Primo sparked my deeper interest
24:12
in neural network. As I so I recognised the
24:17
profound conceptual similarities between the two systems and both
24:24
operate through interconnected nodes, process information via
24:31
weighted relationships and generate complex outcomes
24:36
through the interaction of simple relational components.
24:42
Given that so I think that today's artificial neural
24:49
networks, the acronym is A and then as particularly deep
24:56
learning architecture represent sophisticated computational
25:00
abstractions inspired as a tried to describe by the brain, but
25:06
fundamentally limited by their digital nature.
25:11
These systems processes through layers of weighted mathematical
25:18
operations rather than through the organic complexity of real
25:22
neurons. I think coming back to your
25:28
first question, I think that by 20452050 we anticipate an
25:34
evolutionary transformation in neural network architecture that
25:39
will bridge the gap between artificial and biological
25:43
intelligence. This evolution will be driven by
25:46
advanced in quantum computing principles, biological
25:51
inspirations and hybrid system design that combines the best
25:55
aspects of both digital and biological processing.
26:01
The topic is complex. We can talk about neuromorphic
26:06
computing revolution, brain computer interface evolution,
26:11
hybrid intelligence systems, and also educational and cognitive
26:18
transformation, ethical and social implication.
26:22
Also security and autonomy challenges governance or better
26:29
the future implications and governance.
26:32
So these are all the points I see talking about neural
26:39
networks and the future applications in the next in the
26:47
next year. So this is my my view in short,
26:50
but if you want I can try to to describe similarly each one of
26:57
them. For now, we're good with the
27:00
high level perspective, but I'm also curious that in the book
27:04
that you've written, what is this book about?
27:07
I mean, what does it cover? I know the title, but what does
27:11
it include and? Yes, yes.
27:15
I, when I start working on this book, I, I thought a work to
27:23
describe the phenomenon of artificial intelligence.
27:29
And I, as I, as I underlined before, we, we talk about
27:37
artificial intelligence, but people don't know what is
27:41
artificial intelligence. So the first thing I wanted to,
27:46
to describe this phenomenon and to underline that it's
27:50
impossible now to describe or to define artificial intelligence.
27:57
In the first part of in in this book, I I mention one of the the
28:04
biggest study on artificial intelligence carried out by
28:10
Stuart Russell and Peter Norwich, where they so finally
28:18
stated that there is no definition of artificial
28:22
intelligence because it depends on the model.
28:25
It depends on the the approach that you will have on the
28:30
matter. So the first thing is to explain
28:33
people what is this phenomenon and it's better to talk about
28:40
artificial intelligence system and also with referring to the
28:46
AI actor, the first legislation on artificial intelligence in
28:51
the world. And so describe in a colloquial
28:58
way what are the challenges related to artificial
29:03
intelligence? What are the criticisms related
29:06
to artificial intelligence and what are some instruments
29:12
related to artificial intelligence?
29:14
In in a chapter in chapter 4, I described for example, a
29:20
proposal of taxonomy of artificial intelligence and they
29:25
concluded my book talking about a proposal of approach, a multi
29:31
layer approach. Because I think that we can
29:35
understand something of about artificial intelligence if we
29:40
consider if our approach will be layered so we can think a single
29:49
St a single part of, of, of this phenomenon.
29:54
This is in short, the the book, there is a chapter related to
30:01
legal legal professionals. So what, what what's happened
30:08
in, in, in the legal profession? Because for example, in Italy we
30:13
have a bill of artificial intelligence that imposed to
30:19
lawyers to inform clients if they use artificial intelligence
30:27
system for a case. So there are some aspects
30:33
related to some professional activities that is important to
30:41
describe. And then I consider this book a
30:46
journey through previous evolutions, evolution, because
30:50
in the first part of the book, I described what, what coming
30:55
back. So joining to the, the first,
30:58
the, the, the previous book, which I published in 2020.
31:04
I, I, I wanted to to continue a short description about privacy
31:12
and the relationships between privacy and artificial
31:15
intelligence. And then in the so in the in the
31:20
chapter 2, I I wanted to describe the phenomenon so so
31:26
the relationship between privacy and artificial intelligence,
31:30
highlighting the human dimension.
31:34
So what privacy explores the intimate and multidimensional
31:40
nature of privacy. In chapter 3, for example,
31:45
privacy and artificial intelligence represent the books
31:49
theoretical heart exploring how AI transforms our understanding
31:55
of privacy itself. Then the mystifying AI
32:00
technologies in chapter 4, artificial intelligence I I, I,
32:06
I used these unknown and in bracket because artificial
32:14
intelligence we we know what is so, but it's a paradox because
32:20
we we know but we I do not know in indeed this these aspects.
32:27
So but you know Punit what what I am talking about artificial
32:35
intelligence because you you you you I consider you a pioneer in
32:41
artificial intelligence because of your book you publish it in
32:45
the past. So we are talking about the
32:49
phenomenon that we, we, we know. And so then I, it was a it is,
32:59
it has been a journey for me. This this book my willing to
33:06
describe to to everyone. This book is accessible to
33:11
everyone to describe the the this phenomenon and trying to to
33:17
make clear in some aspects it is my my my purpose.
33:23
No, no, I think that's a good purpose.
33:25
And the two books that you referred, the Deporamo, if
33:28
people are interested in getting an insight, there is also an
33:33
episode that we recorded on Deporamo in the past, of course.
33:36
And the other one, you talk about the AI and privacy, which
33:40
is my book, Yeah. And Privacy, which I wrote in
33:43
2021. And you were kind enough to
33:45
write a forward in that one. I do remember I wrote yes I.
33:48
Remember, well, it was a pleasure and I appreciate your
33:53
your approach because you you talk about talking about AI in a
34:01
period. And so I mentioned, I mentioned
34:06
you as a pioneer because nobody talked about AI in that period.
34:13
Currently everyone, currently everyone talk about AI.
34:19
But I wanted to explain my point of view.
34:25
I just these I, I put in the book my interests and my study
34:30
about artificial intelligence and privacy.
34:33
And maybe probably I will continue writing about AII don't
34:39
know when, but it's it's a topic that intrigued me a lot.
34:45
And they will. I would like to to deepen more
34:50
so. Yeah, thank you so much.
34:51
But where can we people get this book, the new one, the fact this
34:56
10. It's it's available on the major
35:00
online store. I can mention Amazon is one of
35:05
of the of the online store that that has this, this book that
35:10
people can book can get this book.
35:12
And, and so currently only online globally because there is
35:19
also the Italian edition, but the Italian edition for the
35:23
Italian edition. There are several online stores
35:26
because there are some still online that are only in in
35:31
Italian and they're not, not, not available globally.
35:36
So Amazon is a is a good resource.
35:41
Good. I think yes, it's available on
35:42
Amazon, but you were kind enough to send it to me, so I didn't
35:45
need to go to Amazon. So thank you so much for that.
35:49
My pleasure. Thank you so much for your time
35:52
and inputs. It's always a pleasure to talk
35:54
to you and. Thank you Likewise.
36:00
Thanks for listening. If you liked the show, feel free
36:03
to share it with a friend and write a review if you have
36:06
already done so. Thank you so much and if you did
36:09
not like the show just don't bother and forget about it.
36:12
Take care and stay safe. Fit for Privacy helps you to
36:16
create a culture of privacy and manage risks by creating,
36:20
defining and implementing a privacy strategy that includes
36:24
delivering scenario based training for your staff.
36:27
We also help those who are looking to get certified in
36:30
CIPPECIPM and CIPT through on demand courses that help you
36:36
prepare and practise for certification exam.
36:40
Want to know more? Visit www.fitforprivacy.com.
36:45
That's www.fitthe#4privacy.com. If you have questions or
36:54
suggestions, drop an e-mail at hello@fitforprivacy.com.
36:59
Until next time, goodbye.