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Victoria's Election - What If the Greens Win it all? · Democracy Tomorrow

• Scott Leckie: Hey everybody, it's Scott Leckie from Democracy Tomorrow. In 23 days, the state election in the state of Victoria will take place here in Australia. Currently, the polls are sort of all over the place, but it looks in the latest polls that the coalition of the Liberal Party and the National Party will Come in at around 30% of the vote. The Labour Party, the current governing party, of course, will come in around 24% of the vote. The One Nation extreme right wing party will come in at 22% of the vote. And the Green Party will come in at 14% of the vote. Some other polls point to the Greens getting as much as 16, 17, 18%. internal polling by the Green Party released t two days ago indicated that they had actually overtaken One Nation and and came into third place. I'm in the list. So this is just one poll. There are countless others. The current government, of course, is a labor government with 54 seats in the legislative assembly of the parliament. We have 88 seats. You need a majority of 45. The Greens now have two seats in the Legislative Assembly, and they have four seats in the Legislative Council, the equivalent of our sen of a Senate. And the Labor the government has 15 seats. The current projections in in one of the polls in terms of seats for the state of Victoria show that the coalition could expect to get forty-one seats, so short of a majority by four seats. Labour could get twenty seven. One nation could get fourteen, going from essentially, I think, zero to fourteen, and the Greens could get six. None of these scenarios point to the Green Party winning the upcoming election, despite the fact that they are higher in the opinion polls now than they have ever been at the state level in Victoria, which is widely known to be Australia's most progressive state. But strange things happen. we saw what happened in the United States yesterday, where there was a complete electoral wipeout of the Republican Party. Trump MAGA and all of the things that those parties stand for, and the Democrats have a huge majority in both the House and the Senate there. there have been other incredible election results in Serbia recently, not that long ago in Hungary, in a whole range of different countries. Brazil, of course, Lula had an incredible comeback. So there's a big wave of of elections happening across the world where the the progressive side of the political equation are winning and extreme right-wing parties that once held power or hope to hold power are at least in these places on the wane. We'll wait and see what happens in Victoria. But we want to imagine today what what would happen if the Green Party did win one day and their percentage went up from 17% to 32%, Jürgen Walter: Ahem. Scott Leckie: let's say. And what if their seat representation went from The projected six all the way up to who knows? 45, 48. A similar thing happened in the German state of Baden-Württemberg, more than 15 years ago. Baden-Württemberg is where Stuttgart is located. It was where I think Heilbronn is located, a whole range, Ludwigsburg, a whole range of big important German cities and industrial and other factories associated with the German economic. st powerhouse that it is. And lo and behold, after 30 years of trying, the Green Party actually became the governing dominant partner in government starting in 2011 and continues to this day in 2026 being the primary party in the state of Baden-Wurttemberg. We want to explore today how that came into being. How was it that A generally small party that was only established in the early late 1970s, early nineteen eighties, at the national federal level in Germany, of course, suddenly got enough votes to to be the the dominant party in a governing coalition in a very important state. So what could that happen here? And if it did happen here, what would the people of Victoria have to look forward to? So we're very lucky to have back with us today. Jürgen Walter, who was a member of that very same parliament for 29 years. He was also the Minister of Culture for five or six years. State Secretary, sorry, equivalent of a minister, more or less, here. and he has been a lifelong Green Party activist and member and has a lot of insights into the historical progression of the Greens there in Germany. So welcome back again, Jürgen. It's great to have you here. Jürgen Walter: Good morning. My time. Scott Leckie: That's right. So so you've been an active player in Baden-Württemberg politics for decades now. What was it like in the run up to two thousand and eleven? Did you ever think that the Green Party would become the dominant party in Baden-Württemberg, the party of which you are a member? and what do you think it actually took to get them up at that level and across the line to push all the other parties behind them? Jürgen Walter: before that, 60 years or so, the Christian Democrats had ruled the country. the arrogance of power was in their eyes, in their faces, in their mouths, everywhere. And people got sick of that. And then there was a big fight about a train station, the Stuttgart train station. But it was just a thing like Sometimes there were 100,000 people protesting against it every Saturday. And then they came with the police and they hit people. so there was just people. And it was not just the leftist or alternative people going to these protests, but the normal Christian Democrat people. democratic people. But so they lost confidence in the Christian Democrats. That was one thing. the Christian Democrat prime minister at that time really showed a lot of arrogance that people didn't like this anymore. And then we had a candidate running for prime minister. Winfried Gretschmann who people really trusted in. Everybody thought this is a reliable person. He's not... let me say something else before. The image of the greens in Baden-Württemberg was almost all the time different to the image of the federal, state-wide or the nation-wide greens. They were more conservative and more relaxed. And so we had good results before. And what happened was that Gretschmann promised the people, we will start the politics where we listen to you. Your opinions will be heard. Not everything will be overtaken because the... can't do it right for anybody. So this was something he, and then people believed in this. And it was a very, very narrow result. We had about 25 % and the social democrats had 24, so we could build a coalition together. The Christian democrats had still, I think, about 40%, but they lost the majority. And so we got into this. And Scott Leckie: Right. Jürgen Walter: it's very important to be authentic. you shouldn't promise things you already know you can't do it. If there's Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jürgen Walter: no money, if there is no majority in the population, don't promise things that you know you can't keep these promises. Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jürgen Walter: That's one thing. then it was not just that we had the facts on our side. It was just that we had the emotions on our side. That's always very important. you know, it's not just the brain decides. Mainly not the brain, And so Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jürgen Walter: that's very important because people just thought that they're... Stuttgart, with this train station, Stuttgart would be somehow destroyed and parts of the park and stuff like this. So that was really an emotional thing. That really helped us. It was not just that people thought, now we go this green way. It was just that Scott Leckie: Yeah. Jürgen Walter: they just help us to prevent, to keep our city how it was. Scott Leckie: Right, right. Jürgen Walter: And then, you know, we... The way we went was on the one hand we did some reforms, we did some ecological things, or I did with the art we changed things. For example, the art, people have thought that we just strengthen subculture and not the high culture, whatever it was, however you want to call it, but we just supported both. Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jürgen Walter: We gained more and more confidence on all sides. And Scott Leckie: Right, right, right. Jürgen Walter: that's very important. Don't just think in your own little bubble. If you Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Right. Jürgen Walter: do bubble politics, you will not survive. so of course, Gretschmann gained more and more confidence in the whole population. So there were times when about 70 to 80 % of the Baden-Württemberg population said they trust him. That's amazing. That's amazing. Scott Leckie: Wow. Yes. Jürgen Walter: So the second time he ran for, to get re-elected, we gained about 30%. So, the Christian Democrats were even more, we had more than 30%. And the Christian Democrats had placed two for the very first time. Scott Leckie: Right, right. Jürgen Walter: So, and I think it's always important to tell a story which is more optimistic and which tells you your future will be a better one than the one, the present time, you know. And what we never did was just be like some more, know, in former times, left people tend to be anti-economics, yeah. But as you had said, the economics in Baden-Württemberg is very strong. of course, we want to have a different kind of mobility of another traffic. But Baden-Württemberg, and that's one of the problems we have right now, has Mercedes and Porsche and Bosch and suppliers. And so Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jürgen Walter: at least every second working places has deals with the car industry. so Scott Leckie: Right, right. Jürgen Walter: we didn't fight them. In the beginning, Gretschmann was asked and he said, of course, less cars are better. And of course he got a call from CEO, Mercedes CEO, ZC. But Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jürgen Walter: that was still our opinion. we tried to get a shift to the electric cars. But the German car industry is very sleepy. Scott Leckie: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Jürgen Walter: And they might be overrun by the Chinese pretty soon, that's just tough. And one of the problems we have now is that the Dschudgau will be the next Detroit. that forces a lot of people are really afraid of this development. I think it's not Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jürgen Walter: getting that worse, but... the CEO of Mercedes still fights for fossil cars, which is really stupid. But now our ecological friend from the White House helps us to keep up. Now you have to wait half a year for electric car with some brands, because they Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jürgen Walter: can't build all the electric cars that are. asked for and so Scott Leckie: Yeah. Right. Jürgen Walter: actually he wants to do the opposite but that's what he did with the stupid war in Iran. It's... But anyway, so now let me just go back to the last election after 15 years. In the first term, the Christian Democrats said, that was an accident. We get the prime minister, we get the back next year, next time. But then the second time and then the third time. And now they thought, OK, Kretschmann is away. He won't run anymore. And then, Östermier comes and people might think, that's a Turkish guy. We don't have one this and they just... But then, and then it was like this. In September, two thousand twenty four, no, twenty five, we were at the polls, 14 points behind the Christian Democrats. And on March 8th, we passed them, and just a little bit with the same number of seats, but we had more votes. So Estimil won, and the last poll about three weeks ago, I think we were about 10 % ahead of the Christian Democrats, after half a year with Estimil, yeah. Scott Leckie: Right. Right. Jürgen Walter: So that's what happened. Scott Leckie: So it's basically it's it's essentially four elections you guys have ended up winning and then governing afterwards. Jürgen Walter: Yeah, it will be 20 years of Green Prime Minister, whatever happens next time. But Scott Leckie: Right, right, right. Jürgen Walter: I'm sure Özdemir will win next time. Christian Democrats don't have very good people there. They're not people who make people believe that's a good decision to vote for him. So everybody. A lot of people voted, we have two votes, one for the person and one for the party. So the Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jürgen Walter: Christian Democrats often won the first vote, but the second vote, which really counts in the end, we were much better. Scott Leckie: Right, right, right, right. So so, the perhaps for Australian listeners in particular, the one of the most interesting things to discuss would be how did the average, Christian Democrat that would be the equivalent of somebody who votes for the Liberal Party here, or someone more right wing, or some free trade people in the middle, the free democrats in Germany, how do those people, those average burgerlich people Jürgen Walter: Hahaha Scott Leckie: how did they respond to having a Green Party dominant government in terms of, day-to-day life? Because the the prevailing sentiment, of course, is if we have a Green Party government, they're gonna plant trees all the time, they're gonna put they're gonna t get rid of all the roads, everybody has to ride a bicycle, they're not gonna be able to use electricity anymore, you Jürgen Walter: Hahaha. Scott Leckie: can't eat meat anymore, you're gonna be taxed ninety five percent, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All these scare tactics. But How did the average not green voter respond to life in Baden-Württemberg under four different governments? Jürgen Walter: It's not even people just, most people I know, they don't, even the average people, don't talk about this anymore. It's just the regular thing. And it was just like Scott Leckie: Right, right. Jürgen Walter: this, that even people I know who usually vote for the Christian Democrats, they said, Oestermeyer or before Getschmann is much better. In this case, I vote green, yeah. It's also Scott Leckie: Right, right. Jürgen Walter: a strong person. And of course, Östermier is a conservative Green, yeah? And his parents came to Germany in the 60s and he was born here, he grew up here. of course he plays with this. think he talks, he has a much stronger, if he does, if he speaks dialect, it's a much Scott Leckie: Yeah. Jürgen Walter: stronger dialect than I have, you know? Scott Leckie: Right, right. Right. Jürgen Walter: He's totally Swabian. So people believe he's one of them. And that Scott Leckie: Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Jürgen Walter: is no topic. But on the other hand, when we had this so-called traffic light coalition with the red, Scott Leckie: Yeah. Jürgen Walter: the yellow, which are not in parliament, thanks God, anymore, and the greens. That didn't happen because the liberals were not able to govern. They were opposition within Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jürgen Walter: their own government. And Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jürgen Walter: so there was a... So Robert Harbeck, who is a great guy with the Greens, he was so much under fire because the Bild-Zeitung, which is totally on the fossil industry side. Scott Leckie: Yeah, conserv very popular conservative newspaper in Germany. Yeah. Jürgen Walter: Yeah, and I think they're also in the States now. I don't know which Scott Leckie: really? Jürgen Walter: papers they run, but they have some. And as far Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jürgen Walter: as I know, the fossil industry is also giving money to them. So anyway, Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jürgen Walter: they made a campaign because he said, if your heating system is broken, you have to exchange it mainly with warming pumps. And that was something. The greens get into my basement and I can't decide myself. And that really Scott Leckie: yeah. Right. Jürgen Walter: killed us for a while. And it takes us, and now, so this was one of the reasons we were at 18%, and 14 % behind the Christian Democrats. But this could have, this was overcome and now we are getting better in the polls again. And we don't know what happens to this very bad. administration with Friedrich Merz. So this might not work for a long time, so we must be ready. Scott Leckie: Yeah. So how how did what are some of the greatest victories you would say you achieved in those twenty years so or those sixteen years so far? Jürgen Walter: Well, so we could, the biggest supplier for energy, the ANBB, which was, they had a lot of nuclear power plants. We got a new CEO for them and now they're really doing the renewables. They do a lot of wind energy and solar energy. And they are very good in charging stations for electric cars. So this was a big change, a real big tank ship, know, turn it into a future ship. that was something, that was a big success, yeah. So I Scott Leckie: Right. Jürgen Walter: think. And of course we could install more wind energy, which is not so easy in a... in a place where a lot of areas, in a state with a lot of Scott Leckie: Yeah. Right. Jürgen Walter: rural areas, where people are conservative and so on and so on. Scott Leckie: How about at the economic level? Jürgen Walter: Well, and so we could be. Scott Leckie: What what about at the economic level? did it did anything really structurally change in terms of did employment go up, did it go down, did wages go up? Did they go down? Jürgen Walter: Well, the employment went up. In the first 10, 12 years, the employment went up, of course. was a time of a lot of... So before Trump came and before the car industry lost China as Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jürgen Walter: a market, or most of it, then it really always went up. Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jürgen Walter: And we had... So Gretschmann asked the car industry and environmental people, come together and think of the car of the future. But they all came because the prime minister asked for it. But they didn't really change something. Mercedes was just like, Scott Leckie: Yeah. Jürgen Walter: we were successful. We sell our big cars to the states and to China. But China's lost, I think. Scott Leckie: Right. Jürgen Walter: And as long as Trump is in, there is no change to electric mobility in the United States. Even getting Scott Leckie: Do people Jürgen Walter: worse. You see the new factory Audi is going to build in, I think it was Georgia. And Scott Leckie: Uh-huh. Jürgen Walter: the CEO of Audi was there and announced it in a rally of Trump, one of Trump's rallies. Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jürgen Walter: He got much on the fire in whole Germany, in the media, at Audi and everywhere. And they Scott Leckie: I bet. Jürgen Walter: will build a very stupid Dino Sauras SUV in Georgia. Scott Leckie: Uh-huh. Jürgen Walter: And that's, you know, it's not the future. And I think if we hopefully get a democratic president in two years, then this might change there too. Scott Leckie: Yeah, absolutely. And what what about just general you know, standard of living for the average person from Baden Wurttemberg over that fifteen, sixteen year period? Do they notice much change? D I mean, they must have felt that their lives got better, most people. Jürgen Walter: a lot of the social welfare these are mainly... nationwide federal laws. We cannot change much of this. But we can get the cities more money to better take care of people. We try to get better hospitals, which in some parts also meant less hospitals, because you have to concentrate and get the money to the good ones. that a lot of people didn't like that, but it was just the right decision, I think. It's not so easy on the level, but I think we introduced another way of discussions, and more accept other opinions and talk about them. It changed a lot when the fascist AFD came into the state parliament. Because then the discussions were really harsh and a lot of bad words. we had Scott Leckie: Right. Jürgen Walter: the chairwoman of the parliament. She was green, and she was born in Turkey. And she was a woman, three things the fascists still don't like. And she was always attacked on a very personal level. And sometimes we needed the police to put get the fascists out of the parliament. Some Scott Leckie: Wow. Jürgen Walter: of them. Yeah, it was really bad. So that changed the atmosphere Scott Leckie: Uh-huh. Jürgen Walter: in the parliament. nevertheless, Scott Leckie: Right. Jürgen Walter: what we organized, for example, in the neoliberal times, everybody came. we have to reduce the years in the gymnasium. So the highest level was of education was no longer nine years, it was eight years. Scott Leckie: Right. Jürgen Walter: So this was a, and I always thought it stupid, but anyway, it was done everywhere. And so what we did is, and that's one of the topics I would like to mention, there were others. What Kretschman did, he installed a, This was a woman, she was part of the government, in the cabinet. She was there, and she was something like a people's officer or something, you know. And she organized a discussion, statewide discussions, with a, I don't know which information was put into the computer and how they found, but by chance, they had a selection of like 50 people, It depended on the topic how many people were invited. So people by chance came together and they discussed what is better, eight years of school, nine years of school, and there are some experts. So the people had the feeling they are somehow part of the decision making. You know, Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jürgen Walter: in very important topics this was made. But of course not for all decisions, so you can't organize this. So that is one of the reasons that's something that's also changed the people's lives a little bit. Some people don't realize Scott Leckie: Right. Jürgen Walter: it, the people who are aware of what's going on, they were happy with it. Scott Leckie: Right, right. And I think in most places where you have a high green vote, the the issues that drive that vote tend to be very local issues, you know, like improving my street, planting more trees in the park, having more bike lanes, you know, tr lowering the the speed limit on my street, having better recycling possibilities, you know, very, very super local, super basic, super household level. things. And I think, pr consistently where the Greens have had political influence in countries, they have almost always succeeded with these things, which tend to be popular across the political spectrum. It's not just Green people that like that, but it's the primary policy angle that the Greens tend to pursue. So that's Jürgen Walter: Yeah. Scott Leckie: a little bit what's happening here. It's happening in, New Zealand to a certain extent, some other countries. But it's fascinating to see that after fifteen years it looks likely that the Greens are gonna win again. that the whole political atmosphere in the state until the RF Day came along was had changed really for the better, that consultation was a huge part of it, listening to the people about what they want, and that a middle way approach was taken where, it wasn't the the hardline fundamentalist green side, it was the Reallo or realistic pra pragmatic side that won Jürgen Walter: Yeah. Scott Leckie: the day and they continue to govern as a result of this, you know. Jürgen Walter: Yeah, One thing I want, there were in the first term, were really the Christian Democrats were really angry. They got mad, you know. They also Scott Leckie: Yeah. Jürgen Walter: got mad after the last election because they had thought, in last fall, they had thought, we will win. They already organized the ministries and stuff like this. Scott Leckie: yeah, right. Jürgen Walter: But it didn't work out. For example, we wanted one of the things we changed. Baden-Württemberg was one of the only of the bigger states in Germany without a national park. So we said Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jürgen Walter: we make the northern part of the Black Forest a national park. And they really fought against it with their mayors in the area and whatever. And so one woman of the Christian Democrats came up and said, it's against the Bible and the will of God. Because the Bible says make the earth what is the term what is undertan you know what that is? Undertan is a word from the foreign there was there were the kings and the others the people were the undertans you know that Scott Leckie: okay, the the serfs, the feudal the feudal Jürgen Walter: And not just the service, but the general public was... Scott Leckie: just the population. So yeah, the underlings. The underlings. Yeah. yeah. Jürgen Walter: Yeah, and that's what you have to do with the earth. That's what the Bible says. And that's why a national park where parts of the forest are nothing taken out anymore. And that's against the Bible and the will of God. That's what she said. Scott Leckie: Yeah, you you have to you have to take from the earth as it gives because it's there for you, right? Yeah. Jürgen Walter: Yeah, you have to destroy it, then it's God's will, something like this. Scott Leckie: Right, right, right, right. Mm-hmm. Jürgen Walter: And this was in 2013, talking stupid things like this. And so for a while, but then they realized that Gretschmann was so popular, and their attacks against him didn't help them but him. Scott Leckie: Right. Jürgen Walter: They had three times and now four times people who were not as popular as the green side. was one of the most, that's maybe the most important thing. You need people who, people trust in. Scott Leckie: Gotta have a great leader. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jürgen Walter: And it's, you know, things getting more and more complicated. So, and it's getting more more tough for people to understand what's going on and to inform you about all the different kinds of things coming up and all the crisis. Scott Leckie: Right. Jürgen Walter: So that's where the Christian Democrats had Merkel. She didn't do many things or she didn't change many things. Too many things for the conservative Christian Democrats, But she gave people the feeling she takes care of them. They don't even have to think about politics. Scott Leckie: Right. Very much. Yeah. Jürgen Walter: Angela Merkel will take care of us. Yeah, mama, yeah. Scott Leckie: That's right. Mama Mama. Yeah. Jürgen Walter: That's something Gretchen people believed. And Östermier came up with three important things are in these times economics, economics, economics. It's Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jürgen Walter: stupid, it's the economics. think that's something Bill Clinton had said in the old days. It's the economy, stupid, yeah. Scott Leckie: Yeah. From Clint the the Cl yeah. It's the economy stupid. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's yeah. Yeah. Jürgen Walter: But now it's also the social welfare. And the people can't pay for their rent anymore for their for the daily food and everything. Everything's getting more more expensive. But if I go out in the street, there's as many cars as before, so people just don't change. Scott Leckie: Yeah, that's right. Jürgen Walter: For the second time this year, the federal government lowered the gas power prices for 17 cents a liter. Scott Leckie: Really? Jürgen Walter: Yeah, but it's still the highest price ever. Scott Leckie: Right. How much does it cost for a for a liter of petrol in Germany now? Plus or minus. Jürgen Walter: Before that came it was about 220 and the diesel, I'm really happy that the diesel is so expensive Scott Leckie: Ha ha ha. Jürgen Walter: because the people just bought diesel because it was so cheap. Scott Leckie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jürgen Walter: They lowered the, like 30 years ago, 40 years ago, think Helmut Kohl did that, they lowered Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jürgen Walter: the taxes for diesel. Scott Leckie: Right. Jürgen Walter: And so everybody bought diesel because it was cheap and it didn't use as much gasoline or in this case diesel as other cars. But now, I think yesterday when I passed the gas station it was 230 or something for a liter of diesel. But it was up Scott Leckie: Right. Jürgen Walter: to 249 two weeks ago or so. Scott Leckie: Right, which is I think around three dollars fifty, four dollars a liter and th so quite a bit more than here still, and way more than the United States. But it's even Jürgen Walter: Of course, course. Bye-bye. Scott Leckie: even then it's not consistent with its ecological cost. If it's if you took its ecological cost it would still it would be eight dollars eight eight Euros a liter or something. Ten, you know. Jürgen Walter: Yesterday a woman asked me, isn't your electric car more expensive than my car? And I told her, pay, if I go around in the city, it's around, let's say, on average, sometimes a little bit more, most times even less. I have 10 kilowatt. Scott Leckie: Uh-huh. Jürgen Walter: I have to pay for 400 kilometers. And so this is about three euros if I buy the energy. Scott Leckie: Right. Jürgen Walter: If I produce it myself, it's even a little bit less. Scott Leckie: Sure. Jürgen Walter: But so she said, that's impossible. I didn't know that. So people Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jürgen Walter: have to realize that electricity is the next step. Scott Leckie: Way of the future. Absolutely. Well, Jurgen, thank you very much today for Jürgen Walter: Yeah, sure. Scott Leckie: letting us hear that there's actually a a major economic state in the world called Baden Wurttemberg that's been run by the Greens successfully for fifteen years or more and is likely to keep going for another five at least. And let Victoria let Jürgen Walter: Now it's for your, for your four more years is guaranteed and maybe for even four more, five more. Scott Leckie: Right. So it it could end up being almost thirty years. Almost a third Jürgen Walter: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Scott Leckie: of a century. I mean, which is extraordinary. But you know, I think the the mess the main message for today to people from Victoria in particular, if you're watching, is it may seem completely impossible that the Green Party could become the dominant party in the state of Victoria today. And you know what? In all the years before it happened in Baden-Wurttemberg, the very same sentiments were true. It was impossible. That the Greens would ever become the biggest party and that they would govern successfully, but they did, and it happened, and people did not go crazy, people did not die in the in droves, people did not go become poor, they did not shut down factories, you they were not restricted from eating meat and broadfoot and everything else. Everything went on smoothly. Life went on, people were happy. So it's possible. Jürgen Walter: And pot was legalized. But Scott Leckie: And pot was legalized. That's still not still not the case here yet. It's getting there, but one day, one day. Jürgen Walter: let me just tell you a little story at the end. Scott Leckie: Sure, sure. Jürgen Walter: It was a ritual so that every year the prime minister invites the different fractions of the parliament to a party in his office time, which Scott Leckie: Yeah. Jürgen Walter: is a very nice old place with a huge garden, yeah? And they have some big trees from California there, you know? Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jürgen Walter: And I, to the last Christian Prime Minister, when he invited us, said to him, hey, look, Stefan, these are invasive trees here from California. We shouldn't have them here. When we take over next year, we will cut them down, you know? That's what I said. And Scott Leckie: Might not. Jürgen Walter: he was just laughing and he was just, thought, well, this guy is crazy, Of course, I never intended to cut them down, you know? Scott Leckie: Yeah. Jürgen Walter: But what I wanted to say is we take over next year. I was a little bit optimistic the closer we got to them, but he's laughed so much he couldn't be like... He thought this guy's crazy. This will never happen. Yeah. Scott Leckie: Like what a joke. Yeah. Yeah. That is a very good point. Because I'm sure that's what would happen here, you know, if Green Party politicians were talking to others from other parties. It'll never happen. It'll never happen. And it you know, it's real Jürgen Walter: And I... Scott Leckie: you have to imagine it, you know, and then it can happen. You have to first imagine it. And and Jürgen Walter: Yeah. Scott Leckie: you know, it might not happen tomorrow, but the Green Party politics is much more reasonable. than most people realize. they always paint it with this extreme left-wing brush. and and for Jürgen Walter: Yeah. Scott Leckie: the most most of the issues are not extreme left at all. they tend to be like I said before, these household issues, these these very basic low-level ecological, greeny type things. And that yes, they may believe in ending homelessness or, complying with international law or respecting human rights or something like that. But they're not really left wing issues. Those are those are issues that affect everybody, in the same way. Jürgen Walter: So my doctor's wife, she works with him. She said one of her young people working in his, how do you say, the doctor's office, Scott Leckie: Clinic. Office. Mm-hmm. Jürgen Walter: she said, you are with the, because they are both member of the Greens. you are with the Greens. I don't know the Greens. She's about 19 or something. the greens might take away my car. And then his wife said, you don't even have a car, right? What are you talking about? So Scott Leckie: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Jürgen Walter: in some people's heads, as you said, that's in here. Scott Leckie: Yeah. Yeah. Jürgen Walter: But in 1972, when Willy Brandt for chancellor, there Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jürgen Walter: was a artist, made posters. Workers, be aware of the social democrats, they are going to take away your villas in southern Switzerland. Scott Leckie: yeah. Jürgen Walter: And of course, no work had a villa in southern Switzerland. That was really a funny poster. Yeah, of course, he was Scott Leckie: Exactly. Exactly. And Vili Yeah. And Willi Brandt changed Germany forever, you know, in so many ways. Jürgen Walter: the best chanceler we ever had. Scott Leckie: he was amazing. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, those that was the good old days in many ways. Absolutely. Well, thank you very much, Jürgen Walter: Yeah, he was. Yeah. Okay. Scott Leckie: Jurgen. So I'll we'll keep you updated about how the election goes here in a few weeks Jürgen Walter: yeah. Scott Leckie: and keep our fingers crossed and see what happens. Jürgen Walter: And yeah, maybe, don't know, make a green Tommy. Scott Leckie: What do you what do you mean, Tommy? Jürgen Walter: They call it now blue tsunami, a green tsunami Scott Leckie: yeah, a green Tommy, yeah. Jürgen Walter: in Australia. Scott Leckie: That's right. Or else you will have to deal with the fact of a dictatorship down the road. Here's my latest book called Psychotic Despotic, all about the permanent end of dictators everywhere. Not a single dictator left by the end of Jürgen Walter: Yeah. Scott Leckie: this book. But you could never guess how it happens.