Latest / Your Mic / A Love Letter to Podcast Creators

Transcript

A Love Letter to Podcast Creators · Your Mic

0:00
Welcome back to Your Mic.
0:01
My name is Freddy Cruz, founder of Speak Podcasting, and today I want you to imagine seven years, dozens of interviews, and a love letter to podcasting.
0:11
That's the journey you and I are going on right now.
0:14
It's the journey behind the documentary Age of Audio.
0:17
Producer and director Sean Michael Colon spent nearly a decade weaving together history, personalities, and real-time drama,
0:25
catching the moments that shaped our industry and telling the true story of struggle, change, and triumph.
0:32
Now podcast makers and fans alike get to experience it next month.
0:37
We're screening Age of Audio for VIPs at SpeakFest, happening at the National Museum of Funeral History.
0:43
Get your tickets now.
0:44
Speakpodcasting.com slash SpeakFest 2025.
0:51
Sean, walk me through the exact moment you decided, I need to make a podcast documentary.
0:59
Well, it's actually a pretty funny story.
1:02
I was working on a different documentary,
1:05
and we were following a band, and they were playing in Brooklyn.
1:11
At the same time,
1:11
One of my favorite bands, a band called Propaganda, was playing as well.
1:15
And a friend of ours was opening up for them and said, hey, I know you guys are filming.
1:21
Would you want to come to the show?
1:23
We're open.
1:24
I'll get you in and film our opening set.
1:27
I was like, yeah, that sounds great.
1:28
That would be perfect.
1:29
I'll get to see my favorite band, film my friend's band.
1:33
That would be cool.
1:35
And on the way there, he texted me.
1:37
He's like, hey, dude, my uncle's going to be at the show.
1:40
and I was like oh cool good to meet your uncle you know he's like my uncle is Ira Glass
1:46
kind of a big deal I was like what so like um I ended up hanging out with Ira at this show
1:56
and we hung out not just kind of like met him but we hung out and chatted and he's asked us about
2:01
the movie we're making and it was really had a lot and then he came to the band that we were
2:05
following show afterwards and he kind of hung out all evening you were hanging out it was
2:09
more than just a chat or something like that?
2:11
Basically, he hung out all evening and I got to meet him.
2:13
And that was a really
2:14
a combining of two worlds I'd never thought would mix.
2:17
And a little bit later, like a few days later,
2:20
I was interviewing Dallas Taylor from the podcast 20,000 Hertz, because he had done an episode
2:27
that was related to some of the things that this band we were filming with do.
2:34
And when I was talking to him, I was like, after our interview, I was like, dude, I
2:38
I met Ira Glass.
2:39
This is crazy.
2:40
You know, hung out with Ira Glass.
2:41
It was interesting.
2:44
And at that point, I had, well, I should back this up a little bit and say that this is my second documentary.
2:52
I had done a punk rock documentary.
2:54
It was my first documentary called A Fat Wreck.
2:57
And one of the things I did is I realized that Roman Mars was a punk rock fan.
3:01
And so I sent him a copy of the film early on and he gave me some really great feedback and, you know, said some very nice things.
3:09
And I actually used some of those on like the pull quote on the DVD.
3:14
Like Roman Mars, you know, had this quote about the film.
3:18
And Dallas Taylor knew Roman as well.
3:21
And he was like, dude, you know, Roman Mars.
3:24
And now, you know, Ira Glass.
3:26
He's like, why aren't you making a podcast documentary?
3:28
and I was like, you, why did you say that?
3:35
Why did you have to say that?
3:37
Because now I have to try and do that.
3:39
How likely do you think it would have been
3:41
for you to get Age of Audio into the world
3:44
if the pandemic didn't happen,
3:46
seeing as how you're putting it out
3:48
after seven years of producing it?
3:51
I think it would have come out faster,
3:53
but I think it would have got a lot less relevant faster,
3:56
to be honest with you.
3:58
True.
3:59
because if we would have hit the questions we were asking about at that
4:03
time were like what's going to do with all this money rushing in and narrative
4:07
audio is so big and oh my gosh the you know Gimlet so huge and what's gonna
4:13
happen with reply all and you know all these things and one of the benefits of
4:19
that elongated time period is that we got to ride the weight back down and and
4:25
And also, I don't think we would have run into Ronald Young Jr. and had the same.
4:31
We had some other subjects that were part of the film and they kind of either dropped out or kind of things changed with everybody.
4:37
And I don't know if those narratives would have been as strong as Ronald's and would have been as, you know, having a strong up and down as far as far as we get with Ronald.
4:51
as far as some of the highs and lows.
4:53
And wouldn't have been there for really some big moments with Ronald.
4:56
I think we were kind of really lucky to capture, you know,
5:00
I should say that the film we follow, our main subject is Ronald Young Jr.
5:05
He's this podcaster, independent podcaster,
5:08
that has this great podcast called Wait For It that got a lot of acclaim.
5:13
He has a couple other podcasts that he does.
5:15
He's really kind of a podcast personality at this point.
5:18
Does a lot of talks at conferences.
5:20
and we caught him just as he was kind of hitting this ascension
5:26
and having a lot of big things happen to him
5:28
and we were able to kind of be there in the moment.
5:31
I think it gives the film some of that fly-on-the-wall aspect
5:34
of being there and some dynamics
5:37
where a lot of the film would have just been talking heads
5:39
and people talking about things that happened in the past.
5:42
And with Ronald, I think you kind of capture a moment
5:45
that's actually happening at that point real time
5:48
and we got the benefit of kind of having, you know, I don't want to spoil anything.
5:53
I think we spoil it in the trailer anyway, but he wins a bunch of awards
5:57
and we were there for, and we didn't know how that was going to go.
6:00
So we were kind of there in the moment and that gives it,
6:06
from the very beginning of making the film, I knew I wanted to have
6:10
someone that you could relate to and someone you could connect with
6:14
rather than it just being a bunch of people saying what's happened in podcasting,
6:18
which is an aspect of, well, we wanted to kind of tell a little bit of the history
6:22
and give some context to where podcasting started,
6:26
kind of where it was going at a certain point and kind of where it's kind of landing.
6:31
So I'm grateful.
6:32
I think every film follows a natural curve.
6:39
The film is what it wants to be and has its own life.
6:44
and really I am grateful
6:46
because I think the film is better
6:47
for the fact that it ended up being seven years.
6:50
I probably wouldn't have run into Ellen,
6:52
Ellen Horn, who was a big help in the film.
6:55
She was a producer.
6:56
She was one of the co-creators of Radiolab
6:59
and she teaches audio storytelling,
7:03
a big program at NYU
7:05
and really helped.
7:07
She was our story editor as well
7:09
and she really helped really craft the film
7:11
into something that I think has a structure that is easily relatable
7:17
and was very helpful, and she's an amazing collaborator.
7:21
And I just wouldn't have had that.
7:22
I don't know if I would have had that experience working with her as well.
7:27
So it's really, you know, the film, it just happens how it has to happen, I guess.
7:32
And I think it would have been a lesser film had it not extended to where it was.
7:37
Well, and I got to tell you, Sean, and thank you for sending me the link to watch the entire documentary.
7:45
What I really enjoyed about it was, just like you said, there is the narrative story of Ronald and literally documenting his progress, which, you know, it's a documentary.
7:59
But also providing that historical context, you got your Ira Glasses, you got Adam Curry, and then you've got Kevin Smith.
8:07
You got this whole cast of characters and the people who really did shape the industry from the beginning.
8:14
And then you're weaving in Ronald's storyline just flawlessly.
8:18
And I just want to go back, if you don't mind.
8:21
How did you get somebody like Kevin Smith to be a part of the documentary?
8:31
Well, sheer tenacity.
8:34
Was it a lot of DMing and emailing?
8:37
No, I mean, there was that aspect after he agreed to do it.
8:41
We were doing some filming in Los Angeles right around the same time.
8:44
He was doing a lot of the Fat Man Beyond, Fat Man on Batman, I think it might have been at the time.
8:51
And they would do live podcasting at the Scum and Villainy Cantina in Los Angeles.
8:58
And part of what they do, part of the live show is people would bring things up for him to sign.
9:04
And a lot of times they would comment on what is brought up to them.
9:11
So what I did is I put – I was like, okay, maybe I can ask him because maybe I can ask him to be in the documentary.
9:16
Part of my research, I know that he had talked about one of the first advertisers being a certain company.
9:26
Shall remain nameless?
9:29
Yeah, if you watch the movie, it's not nameless.
9:33
That's right.
9:33
We're trying to not spoil anything.
9:37
anyway he talked about one of the first advertisers which dealt with a basically a
9:43
intimate pool and I thought it was really funny that that was kind of you know not the first
9:51
advertiser but one of the first advertisers to work with a network you know before those things
9:55
were kind of established as you know the advertising now is kind of an established
9:59
thing with podcasting, but in those early days, 2005, 2006, those things were still
10:05
kind of really being established.
10:07
So I thought it was a really good, funny story, and I also thought it would be really funny
10:11
to have the Ira Glass, NPR, kind of vary a lot more.
10:20
And he's not as uptight about that stuff either.
10:25
but having those two kind of things I thought was would be funny to have in the film so I'm
10:31
I took my first film I put a note on it and put it on the counter as we were at the show
10:38
and when it came I through the show I see him kind of clock it a few times I see him look at it and
10:43
you're like um can I I could see he acknowledged it and when it came to the time of the show where
10:51
they usually do all the signing.
10:53
They go, oh, we're going to do something a little different today.
10:57
And they brought in the head writers of Endgame,
11:01
the Marvel Endgame, Marcus and McCurry,
11:04
and switched off.
11:08
And basically, Kevin was asking them questions,
11:10
so they didn't really do the signing things.
11:12
I was like, oh, no!
11:14
We missed our chance.
11:15
We missed it.
11:16
Ah, you know, it was like bittersweet,
11:19
because I was like, oh, this is great.
11:20
I'm a big Marvel fan.
11:21
So I was like, oh, great.
11:21
The writers are here.
11:22
That's great.
11:25
At the end of the show, rather than going, and at this time, people, he had signed people's stuff during the show.
11:30
So everyone had grabbed all their stuff off.
11:32
And the only thing left with the counter was the DVD of our previous film with the note on it.
11:39
And instead of going back to behind the counter, they just left at the end of the show.
11:44
And it was left there.
11:46
And I was like, oh, man.
11:48
And I was like, you know what?
11:49
I'm going to run out to the back of the club.
11:53
I know they hang out back there and see if I can.
11:56
I know he clocked it.
11:57
Maybe I can talk to him a second.
11:59
So I run back there, and they're all kind of huddled in a circle,
12:02
talking, the people at the show and the owner of the bar.
12:07
And so I just kind of do that thing where you kind of walk up
12:09
and act like you belong.
12:12
I wasn't going to be like, hey, Kevin.
12:13
I was just going to walk up and just kind of chill out for a second.
12:16
And as soon as I got close, the owner was like, hey, man, this is private, dude.
12:22
It's like, okay, okay, okay, cool.
12:24
I got you, I got you.
12:26
So I go around the corner, and my cinematographer, Joel Herrera, who was with me,
12:32
he was talking to Marcus and McCurry about, I mean, just Marvel stuff, I'm sure.
12:38
And he sees me, and he's like, dude, he forgot the DVD.
12:41
D. And so I go up and I grab it.
12:45
I'm like, you know, I'm gonna try one more time.
12:47
Right?
12:47
I'm
12:47
gonna give it one more go.
12:49
I know he saw this.
12:50
So I'm gonna go back there.
12:53
And I go to go back
12:55
and I turn the corner and everyone had dispersed.
12:57
It's that no one's back there.
13:01
And there was this
13:02
black SUV pulling out.
13:04
And it stops, window rolls down.
13:08
And Kevin Smith goes, Hey, man,
13:10
that's supposed to be for me oh you can't make this stuff up bro this is like something this
13:19
is literally something out of hollywood with like the ebbs and the flows and the peaks and the
13:24
valleys you get turned down you get rejected you're like oh one more time you go back it's gone
13:30
like everyone's dispersed there's no one there you leave you're disgruntled you're you're like
13:35
demotivated.
13:36
What now?
13:37
And then it's out of a movie, it seems.
13:41
So then you say,
13:43
I said, yeah, man, this is my first movie.
13:46
You should check it out.
13:47
But also,
13:48
I'm working on this other documentary.
13:49
It's about the podcast industry.
13:51
It's got Ira Glass,
13:52
Roman Mars, these kind of people.
13:53
And I wanted to talk to you, if you are interested in being in the film,
13:56
to talk to you about one of your first advertisers for Smodcast.
14:01
And he said, yeah, man, I'm into it.
14:03
Get in touch
14:04
with my people and we'll make it happen.
14:07
I want to know because it would be really easy to just assume or presume that it was
14:16
a, yeah, whatever, you know, get out of here.
14:19
I'm going to go party type of a yes.
14:22
But like how long after the initial, I want to be a part of it.
14:28
Did it take for you to, to get him?
14:31
It took a year.
14:32
And so did you at any point feel like, wow, did he just tell me yes for the heck of it?
14:38
I have this philosophy that if someone tells you yes, it's so easy to say no.
14:47
It's so easy to say no.
14:49
True.
14:49
You can say, oh, I don't know if I'm going to have a lot of time for that.
14:51
I mean, I get no's all the time.
14:52
No's are easy.
14:54
And if he would have said no, I probably would have dropped it at that point.
14:58
Maybe.
15:01
but since he was like yes I'll do that to me like you know that means he had at some point
15:07
an intention of doing it and unless I get a thing that says you know we're no longer interested
15:12
you know that kind of thing to me that's a matter of you know trying to figure out a way to make it
15:18
work with his schedule because he's giving his time for free he's you know it's it's that kind
15:24
of thing and he's a busy dude you know he's got a lot of stuff going on so um i just kept trying
15:30
to make it happen and then what we did is he was coming here to dallas i live in dallas and he was
15:36
coming on one of his tours um where he did a you know when the i think he was showing uh jn silent
15:42
bob strike not strike back um the reboot the reboot film and he used a q a and he was doing
15:49
at the texas theater here in dallas and i'm really good friends with the people who run the theater
15:53
they're a big part of the film community up here and I kind of reached out to them and uh hey if I
15:59
could make this happen can I film there and they're like of course and so I reached out to
16:04
his people and was basically like hey if he can give us 20 minutes 20 30 minutes while he's here
16:11
we'll do it at the theater we I've already talked to the people at the theater they said if he's
16:15
okay with it we'll film there that way it's it's as easy as possible and um that's where we filmed
16:21
If you see, there's like a little moviola projector thing in the background.
16:25
It's at the Texas Theater there that we filmed that.
16:28
And it did happen, you know, and I really appreciated it of appreciative because that day he did two screenings.
16:40
And, you know, he does about an hour long or more Q&A.
16:48
And so, you know, they get there at noon.
16:50
They set up.
16:51
He shows the film.
16:52
He does a thing before the film.
16:53
He shows the film.
16:55
He gets about maybe, you know, the length of the film to chill out.
17:00
And then he has to go and do a Q&A for an hour and then start it over again.
17:05
You know, and he was doing it after he had done the first screening, done all the Q&A,
17:11
and had, you know, a little bit of time before the next screening started.
17:14
so he really gave us
17:17
the little hour he had to relax
17:18
he gave us 30 minutes of that
17:21
so you know
17:22
and then he went on to do
17:24
introduce the movie, show the movie
17:26
do like an hour and a half long
17:28
Q&A and then met with all the
17:30
VIP people
17:32
I say that, I mean the people who pay for the VIP thing
17:35
and met with them for like
17:37
we stayed there all night
17:38
and I don't think they got out of there until like 2 or 3 in the morning
17:40
because he talked to everybody
17:42
and that guy really put
17:43
But that guy is a really hard worker.
17:47
That guy is a punk rock kind of guy.
17:50
I don't know if he's punk rock and he actually listens to punk rock,
17:53
but he is doing the roadshow and doing his thing.
17:57
So giving us that time was very, very appreciative that he did that.
18:02
So, yeah, but it's also a matter of, like I said, that tenacity.
18:05
It's like, well, how can we make this work?
18:08
How can we make this work?
18:09
you know
18:13
I think that
18:15
not just with
18:16
I think with anything in life I think you have to have
18:18
that kind of tenacity
18:20
especially if you're doing things that are kind of off the beaten
18:22
path and trying to make a film or trying to start a business
18:24
or trying to start a podcast
18:26
or doing all those things you have to
18:28
be willing to take a lot of
18:31
rejection
18:31
and get back up and
18:34
keep trying and trying I mean I'll be
18:36
honest like this film has been very challenging
18:37
Like, it's definitely challenging.
18:40
My first film, it was very hard, but it seemed to, or at least, I don't know, maybe it's like childbirth.
18:49
You don't, like, you don't remember how hard it was.
18:52
I mean, not that I have a child or anything, but, like, they say that with women, that they can't remember how hard the childbirth is because it's so challenging that you just forget how hard it was.
19:02
But, yeah, this movie was really, really challenging.
19:04
I mean, in the beginning, it really felt like it wanted to be made with things like that happening, you know, telling that story, which is a great story.
19:12
But then there's making all those things happen afterwards.
19:15
So it's a lot of kismet, a lot of luck, and then really pushing and wading through a lot of challenging situations.
19:24
Talk about a time that you felt as though maybe this isn't meant to happen.
19:33
You talk about seven years between ideation and then putting it out into the world.
19:38
Here we are in 2025.
19:39
You're nominated at a festival and you're touring the state.
19:44
You're at events like Podcast Movement.
19:47
You're going to be at SpeakFest.
19:49
You're going to be screening for our VIPs.
19:51
So talk about one or maybe even two of the times when you were just like, man, is the world against me?
19:59
So many times, even right now.
20:02
Even right now, I mean, I'm very lucky to have screened at Podcast Movement, but getting that set up was really a challenge.
20:09
And it really was, you know, Justin from Transistor FM really stepped up and really helped make sure that happened, financially speaking.
20:21
Um, you know, I'm grateful to, to Dan and also Brian at, um, and Tom at, um, Sounds Profitable.
20:29
They donated the space, but getting the equipment costs covered, that was really a challenge in its own right.
20:34
And even now, uh, trying to get, you know, we did do the festival, which is amazing, the film festival that we premiered at, but we've had a lot of rejection from a lot of other film festivals.
20:45
And so even right now, there are times where I feel that way
20:48
as I'm trying to get the film out into the world.
20:50
It's, you know, it's really challenging.
20:51
I mean, as anyone who makes a podcast knows,
20:54
there's so much vying for our attention and everyone's doing so much.
20:58
It's not even that people aren't interested.
21:01
It's just that trying to keep that on people's radar
21:03
and trying to get those things.
21:05
So there's been some times even since the film's been done
21:07
where I've felt that way.
21:09
But really, the big one was in 2023.
21:12
three, I had some major financial setbacks, which required me to really not stop doing
21:23
the movie, but I had to be working on other things full-time just to pay bills.
21:28
I had a steep drop in my income hit due to some outside forces, and I had to just really
21:36
increase the amount of hours that I was working on just to pay the bills, and it ate up almost
21:40
any time I had for working on the film at all.
21:44
And there was a point where I was talking to Dallas Taylor.
21:49
I've met up with him many times, and he's been a big cheerleader of the film
21:56
and also very encouraging, but also someone I could talk to when things were tough.
22:01
And he said at one point to me, he was like, you know, you don't have to do the movie.
22:06
you're not like it's not like i mean it would suck to not finish it but like if it's causing you
22:14
like stress you don't have to do these things you know and um with the financial hurdles and
22:21
the it felt like i had a subject drop out of the film and it really just felt like it was had been
22:29
dead in the water it felt like it just no movement was happening and i was like and with these things
22:33
Momentum plays a lot, in my experience anyway, a momentum plays a lot into a film getting finished.
22:40
And you need that momentum, things happening and going, because once it kind of, if it falters, it could just die.
22:47
There's so many, every movie's a miracle because there's so many things preventing it from happening.
22:53
And in 2023, I really felt like that.
22:56
And I remember, I remember I was sitting, I was in my car and I remember being at a light.
23:01
and I didn't sit there for 15 minutes
23:04
but I remember I can just picture myself where I was
23:06
and I remember thinking to myself
23:08
what does it look like if I stop
23:10
and what are those emails that go out
23:11
what is it
23:12
at that point we had
23:14
people had given us money
23:17
people had given us their stories
23:19
and things like that
23:21
and I thought about it for about 15 minutes
23:23
what that would look like
23:24
and there's another part of me that was like
23:26
uh, F that
23:29
like we're gonna finish the movie i mean come hell or hard water we're gonna figure out a way
23:33
to finish it um and at that point i had a few ideas i wanted to do a little crowdfunding thing
23:40
which we had i had a lot of success of my first film with the crowdfunding thing and uh i also
23:47
um i had uh amy grumbling who had been working with me as a another editor i had been paying
23:54
her out of my own pocket to help with the film.
23:57
And, um, I was like, Hey, what if we pit this,
24:01
that actually happened a little earlier.
24:02
I was like, what if we pivot, like rather than you edit,
24:05
let me pay you the same money to help me write the grant.
24:10
Cause we should try and maybe get
24:11
some grants or some grant opportunities.
24:13
You know, what kind of people, um, you know, uh,
24:17
review grants.
24:18
It's usually people would probably like podcasts, uh, and probably know who Ira
24:21
glasses so like maybe we can sneak in somehow and um amy luckily had been working for the gotham
24:30
i didn't know this till i asked her to do the grant writing but she'd been working for the
24:33
gotham reviewing grants for the last year so she had really had a good idea of what they look for
24:39
and could help and we had been had conversations for the previous year about what the film was and
24:44
things like that so she really knew and had notes about what what how we could take that information
24:49
and put it into a grant.
24:54
I don't know what it's called right now,
24:57
but it's basically a thing you fill out.
25:01
If you fill this out, you can take that information
25:02
and apply it to all grants.
25:04
You fill out this one big one,
25:05
and then you can then take that information
25:08
and then apply it to whatever grants you're...
25:10
So you write one big one,
25:12
and then as you're doing other grants,
25:13
you just kind of conform it.
25:16
She had done that for me,
25:17
and we worked together on that,
25:19
And we submitted to a couple of grants.
25:21
And with grants, you submit and really submit and forget because no one gets grants.
25:29
No one gets grants.
25:31
You never get grants.
25:32
That's just the way it is.
25:33
And so I had been in that situation where I was just working and the movie wasn't doing anything.
25:38
And I was like, had thought about quitting.
25:40
And I was like, not going to do that.
25:41
I was like, what other grants are coming up?
25:44
Let's see.
25:44
And so I reached out to Amy and I was like, I'll submit the grant, but which ones should I be looking out for?
25:50
And she was like, well, there's this Austin Film Society grant that I think you're probably really, you know, most of the grants that are available, this is going to be the most likely to shoot for.
26:02
And so literally I looked it up and there was two weeks left before the submission date.
26:10
And so I stayed up basically every night for like two weeks getting the grant stuff together and repurposing it and rewriting and getting it together.
26:21
And literally, if you go on our Instagram for the film, you can see it.
26:26
I submitted five minutes before the cutoff.
26:33
Oh, man.
26:34
But it failed.
26:36
No.
26:37
And I had to go back and change the thing.
26:40
So when I submitted it, the email I got was at 6 o'clock on the dot.
26:46
Oh, man.
26:47
And I submitted it, you know, Indiana Jones style, pulling out the hat, like submitted it just when it like, like, and it was very stressful.
26:58
And I was just like, there's just no way we're going to get the grant.
27:01
But I would have felt like a, I felt like we would miss opportunity if we didn't try.
27:04
And so I really just put that aside and didn't think about it.
27:07
Cause it's going to be like three or four months till we even found out if we got the grant.
27:10
So I just didn't even think about it and started really kind of gearing things up for what I wanted to do is the crowdfunding thing.
27:16
see if I could get some attention toward the film, maybe raise a few funds to keep things moving.
27:21
And September, I come home, and I mean, I swear to you, I had just really forgotten about it.
27:32
Not like forgotten about it completely, but just like it wasn't on my mind.
27:35
I had just assumed.
27:39
And, you know, I remember coming home and seeing an email from the Austin Film Society.
27:48
And when you see that, you're like, okay, well, I didn't get this, you know.
27:55
And the first line is, we are excited.
28:00
And I just literally didn't even read the rest of the email.
28:03
I really kind of just dropped.
28:05
I really, I mean, in all honesty, I dropped to my knees and just wailed.
28:09
I was so tired.
28:10
So I cried.
28:11
I mean, I'm not even like sad or happy.
28:14
It's just like trying to like all this, like kind of what you were asking before, like
28:20
was there any moments where you're like, does anyone even want this?
28:23
You know, is this worth doing?
28:24
Or, you know, it's that kind of question, which has popped up a few times.
28:28
But at that moment, I felt like, OK, like there's some validation there.
28:34
You know, I think there was one hundred and forty five films that vied for that grant.
28:40
So out of one hundred and forty five films, I think there's it's a it's a you know, they give it to not just one.
28:45
They do like it's a group of people.
28:47
But I was I was in that group and that really kind of revived the film in a lot of ways.
28:53
It was that was that that was the moment where I was like, OK, well, there's something here.
28:59
You know, they're going to back it and give us, you know, it's not a tremendous amount of money, but $10,000, which allowed me to get a new computer.
29:07
It allowed me to go, I reached out to Resonate, the Chioki at Resonate podcast conference, and it seemed like a good place to kind of start drumming up interest in the film.
29:17
and that's where I met Ellen.
29:19
That's where I ended up running into Ron.
29:22
And really that was the thing that reignited the film.
29:28
At that point, things, you know, the momentum started again.
29:32
So, yeah, yeah.
29:33
That's, I mean, I hate to say never give up.
29:38
Maybe giving up is great.
29:39
There's something to be said about giving up.
29:43
Well, giving up is not for everybody.
29:45
And when you have pockets of validation, even though the results don't match the effort, in your case, you're pouring your blood, sweat, and tears into all this.
29:56
And you're taking on jobs to pay your bills, and you're literally not able to spend your spare time on the thing that you really want to work on.
30:13
And so getting the grant, to me at least, seems like that was the validation you needed to keep it going, not just monetarily, but also that internal validation.
30:26
I could really relate to that, Sean, because when you get a win after you get punched in the gonads so many times, it really gets to you.
30:36
Really, I don't know about you, but man, you start to question your life choices, your your existence.
30:42
It's like, OK, what what what am I meant to be here for?
30:47
I mean, it's one of those things where, you know, I'm 45.
30:54
I just turned 45
30:57
7 years is a significant
30:59
chunk of time
31:00
and you only
31:01
get so much time
31:04
there's definitely been several times
31:06
that I've thought about that
31:09
and thought about
31:10
why did I do this
31:13
and I think I would say
31:16
that most filmmakers and like I said not just filmmakers
31:18
but anyone who really
31:20
puts their
31:21
their passion and effort into something that's a, you know, they talk about, you know, betting on yourself, right?
31:32
Yes.
31:33
Bet on yourself.
31:34
Yes.
31:34
Bet on yourself.
31:36
But the key word in there is bet.
31:38
Within a bet means you can lose.
31:41
Right.
31:42
And that's the part that I feel like gets, when you take a risk, you're like, oh, they took a risk.
31:49
Like, you know, I think of the stories of, you know, like Pedro Pascal, you know, he was tells a story.
31:57
He was on his last hundred dollars and he was about to head back home and give up on acting because he'd been trying it for so long.
32:04
And he was, you know, and then he got like a thing on a TV show that gave him some income and really kind of like that.
32:14
And so he didn't go home and he's here now.
32:17
I'm like, yeah, but for every one Pedro Pascal, there are thousands of people that did not get that thing at the last minute.
32:25
That blew that last hundred dollars.
32:27
Yeah.
32:28
And that went home.
32:29
And we don't hear about them because that's not a story to tell.
32:35
And I think about that a lot.
32:39
I think about that a lot when people, I hear they tell the stories because they're so encouraging.
32:43
you know and you're like what about the guy that didn't get the phone call yeah we know those
32:49
stories you know what you're just what you were just describing man reminds me of the and i forget
32:55
the guy's name but the the founder of fedex and how he was having trouble paying the fedex bills
33:01
do you know where i'm going right i think yeah i thought about this one too like a couple dozen
33:06
like maybe 20 or 30 thousand dollars y'all google the story for the oh it's bonkers he was it's
33:13
bonkers.
33:13
He couldn't pay to fill up his planes with gas.
33:19
And so he
33:19
took the last I think it was like 20 or $30,000 went to Vegas
33:23
and bet it all on blackjack I believe.
33:27
And what and one.
33:30
Right?
33:30
You do hear about this.
33:32
You do hear about this story.
33:34
But you hear about it as a guy who embezzled and lost it and
33:39
lost the company.
33:40
Like, it's just like, uh, these, there's these, all these moments in life where
33:44
it's like, uh, there's so much out of our control.
33:47
Um, the one thing I can say is I think, uh,
33:51
there's a podcast episode with, uh, Seth Rogen, uh, talking about this and he's like, he's like,
33:57
what's the one common, you know, ask what's the one common denominator between everyone you've
34:01
Matt who's successful.
34:03
He's like, they didn't give up.
34:07
He's like, if you give up, you definitely won't make it.
34:10
Yep.
34:11
If you don't give up, you might make it.
34:14
But if you give up,
34:15
you definitely won't.
34:16
It's definitely a failure.
34:17
Yeah.
34:18
That's your, yeah.
34:18
Like there is like, and if you keep,
34:21
and there's something to be said, you know, about keeping and trying and,
34:25
you know, but there are costs to trying, you know,
34:27
their costs with relationships and time you lose and financial things.
34:32
And, you know, um, uh, I, like,
34:36
I think I was telling someone about this and they're like, yeah, but you're,
34:40
you're following your passion.
34:41
And I was like, you can't retire on passion.
34:49
Amen to that, dude.
34:51
I hope it's not coming off as discouraging.
34:54
No, it's not.
34:55
But I mean, these are real insights from somebody who a new or an aspiring podcaster or even a creator or a business owner that is interested in podcasting really needs to hear.
35:12
because we hear in your documentary going to your work,
35:19
we hear the story of Ronald and we see Ira Glass
35:22
and we see Kevin Smith.
35:24
And what we don't see in this hour
35:27
and 22 minute long documentary is every failure,
35:32
every rejection, every email or letter or phone call
35:36
or text message that was blown off that led to that.
35:40
And we don't see all the rejection, all the indifference that you had to endure as a producer and director to get to the finished product.
35:51
And so there's an entrepreneur, and you say you're 45.
35:57
I'm 50.
35:59
And so there's this guy named Alex Hormozy.
36:02
He's in his mid-30s worth, I think, over half a billion bucks.
36:07
And he's wise beyond his years.
36:09
and I love listening to the guy.
36:11
He talks about the Rocky cut scene
36:13
and he says,
36:14
in theaters,
36:14
the Rocky cut scene
36:15
is only two minutes,
36:17
but in real life,
36:18
it could be years.
36:20
Years.
36:21
Years.
36:22
And nobody's cheering for you
36:24
when you're,
36:25
you know,
36:26
when,
36:27
and it's not a knock on anyone's circle.
36:30
They just don't,
36:31
they don't see it
36:32
so they can't cheer for you.
36:35
No, and we tend to not,
36:37
I would think as most creators,
36:39
most people um and it's changed a little bit i think with social media but i think most people
36:45
tend to only show you the wins yeah you know and i'm probably guilty of that myself i'm not always
36:50
showing the the rejections i'm not showing the rejection you know all the festivals we were
36:55
rejected from i'm not posting about those you know and so we're not really showing those things and
37:00
we're showing the side um that's hard you're seeing people see this curated uh side of what
37:07
we're doing and they see um i was reminded of uh i think kevin smith i was listening to his podcast
37:14
and he was talking to jj abrams because you always think that someone above you is doing
37:19
the all these things and kevin was like because kevin smith yeah he i was listening he's like oh
37:23
i can't get you know how many times like things have been not worked out all these shows that
37:27
i've tried or pitched and i can get so tired of pitching and pitching and pitching i mean he's
37:32
talking to jj abrams he's like man i just can't wait to i mean it'd be so great to have it like
37:36
you with all these like and JJ was like do you know how many you're seeing all the wins you know
37:44
how much stuff is that we've worked on that didn't make it was rejected and um and I think that's
37:51
important to know uh and that's the thing about doing it like we I think people like us the people
37:57
who do things um you do do it anyway you there is that rejection and there's that hard that thing
38:05
where you're just like, I mean, you know, I said it like, I would say, if you haven't crawled up
38:13
in a ball in a fetal position crying at least twice, you're not making a documentary.
38:20
Touché, man.
38:22
I mean, it's, you know, it's really challenging.
38:25
And I'll tell you, to say something positive,
38:28
like we showed the film at Podcast Movement, and I wish more people would have been there,
38:32
but it was a nice little crowd.
38:34
And the people who were there, they stayed there.
38:36
And we had like a 40, almost 45 minute Q&A afterwards
38:39
where people were asking a lot of questions
38:40
about if I'm really super engaged
38:42
and really loved the film.
38:43
And I was really excited about that.
38:45
And more than one person was like, thank you.
38:47
Thank you so much for making this.
38:51
And I think that was an acknowledgement
38:52
of an understanding of what it takes to do this.
38:57
And the fact that someone, not just me,
38:59
but other people who do this kind of thing,
39:01
that they are putting in the effort and the time and making those sacrifices.
39:05
Because it's not a monetary, you know, a thing for monetary gain for the most part,
39:10
for these types of documentaries, these types of things.
39:13
I think it bears it out in the film itself.
39:17
I think whenever you make a film, you always make a film about yourself,
39:20
even if it's not directly about yourself.
39:22
And the film really lands in a place where, like, art is worth making for art's sake.
39:28
it doesn't always have to have a monetary, you know, the goal shouldn't necessarily be monetary.
39:36
It shouldn't necessarily be for acclaim or those kind of things.
39:40
Sometimes it's important to make
39:41
art for art's sake.
39:43
And I mean, I feel that it's tough when you're living it.
39:49
You're like, oh gosh, you know, it can be really tough when you're living through it
39:52
and having to deal with the juggling of finances.
40:00
We were able to raise a lot of money through sponsors and things like that,
40:03
but there's been many times where I've just had to pay for stuff myself,
40:07
flyers and things, when I really don't have a lot of money,
40:11
disposable income to be spending on it, but it needs to happen
40:15
for these things to keep moving forward.
40:19
And you make the choice.
40:20
You're like, well, you know, either I do it and this doesn't happen or, you know, and all the work we put in, you know, it's tough.
40:32
But it's also rewarding when people see it and they can see.
40:37
I have this theory that no effort is wasted.
40:44
You just don't control where the results of that effort can go all the time.
40:48
Yeah.
40:49
So, and it's also a thing that humans, human beings have this, we can sense effort
40:59
in things.
41:00
I think so when you see a gymnast who's really good at what they do, it's not just that you
41:03
see what they're doing is impressive.
41:05
We have a sense for how much effort went into getting to the point where they could do that.
41:09
Or you see a film that's really good, or you see a musician that's really talented, or,
41:14
or a business leader that can really, we have an appreciation for effort.
41:20
That's why I think art museums and history museums,
41:24
and you see a clay pot that was made 3,000 years ago that has intricate stuff on it,
41:31
and we look at it, and that person that made that,
41:36
maybe they made it for their friend or their loved one or whatever.
41:39
They didn't expect it to show up in a museum 3,000 years later.
41:44
But here we are 3,000 years later appreciating the effort that this human being put into something.
41:48
And we can appreciate it.
41:49
We can sense that effort.
41:50
And I feel like that's worth doing.
41:54
So, yeah.
41:55
Well, Sean, again, thank you for making the documentary, one, and two, for being such an ardent supporter of every podcast host in the podcast universe because I told you via text, you articulated my love of podcasting in a way that I could never have imagined articulating.
42:23
and I like to write and I like to talk.
42:27
And so I'm just glad that I met you
42:31
and that I've met someone who believes in the medium
42:37
just as much as all of us.
42:40
Oh, I appreciate that.
42:40
It's a love letter to podcast makers.
42:43
I hope enough of them get to see it.
42:45
Love it.
42:46
Appreciate you joining the podcast, my friend.
42:47
All right, thank you.