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Knitting saved my life with James McIntosh · Why I Knit

0:03
Mia Hobbs: Hello, and welcome to the Why I Knit podcast. My name
0:06
is Dr. Mia Hobbs and I'm a clinical psychologist who's
0:08
passionate about knitting and its benefits for our mental
0:11
health. Each week on the podcast, I interview a different
0:14
knitter about why they knit and how it benefits their mental
0:17
well being. This week on the podcast, I'm talking to James
0:21
McIntosh, the owner and founder of Macintosh yarn, and also the
0:24
author of Knit and Nibble. You can find a link to James's
0:28
website and any of the patterns in yarns we discussed in the
0:31
show notes alongside more information on mindfulness and
0:34
the evidence base for it. Please note that during our
0:37
conversation, we talk about depression, homophobia and
0:40
bereavement, but also lots about knitting
0:48
them Hi, James, welcome to the podcast.
0:51
James McIntosh: Thank you. It's good to see you. How are you?
0:53
Mia Hobbs: I'm good. Thanks. How are you doing?
0:55
James McIntosh: I'm busy on a sleeve at the minute doing a
0:58
good, lovely raglan jumper trying to trying to recover from
1:03
second sleeve syndrome. Have you ever had it?
1:06
Mia Hobbs: I have. I've definitely had second sock
1:09
syndrome, I would say more than second sleeve, I do tend to knit
1:12
top down raglans. And then you've got it's all attached.
1:16
And I feel like it's easier to see. I just need to do it. But
1:20
second, socks, definitely.
1:23
James McIntosh: I'm doing a bottom up jumper. And really
1:27
nice bright one. Because I just want more colour in my life at
1:31
the moment. Yeah, what I've always find is with we second
1:37
sleeve is a problem. So I've come up with a new idea. And I
1:41
think it's quite clever. So do the ribbing on the cuff on one
1:45
and then on the other, right. And then there's two sets of
1:48
increases as you go so do the first set on one sleeve. And
1:52
then the second, the first one on the other one and then the
1:54
second and then knit to so many centimetres and one and the same
1:58
to the other. And then, you know, take off your four
2:01
stitches and each row and then move up to the first decrease.
2:05
And then that's how I'm doing that. So I'm doing
2:07
Mia Hobbs: so like kind of two at a time.
2:09
James McIntosh: Two at a time tango
2:11
Mia Hobbs: That sounds very clever. So you beat the the
2:14
second sleeve syndrome. So you'd have to do the same thing over
2:17
again. Also, I'm not great at remembering. I know in theory,
2:20
I'm following a pattern but making sure the increases are
2:23
exactly the same on the second one. I'm not sure that always
2:26
happens.
2:27
James McIntosh: That's because you write them out. Right? Yeah.
2:29
Row numbers and I put plus two or minus two next to the row
2:35
number and I just stroke them out as I go.
2:37
Mia Hobbs: That's definitely sensible. process. I would love
2:41
to hear James where your story with knitting began.
2:45
James McIntosh: began five years ago. Okay. I would have never
2:49
met in my life. I always loved to a handknit jumper. There is
2:53
something special about a hand knit jumper.
2:56
Mia Hobbs: Even before you started you were an appreciator
2:59
of that
2:59
James McIntosh: Oh I loved a good jumper. You see, the
3:03
problem was I became very famous very young very quickly and won
3:08
more world awards than I could arguably mentally cope with at
3:12
the time. And I say that no looking back. I'm 43 and a half
3:17
at the moment. You see what I've learned is the half is really
3:21
important. You know, because I'm not 44 It's not that I'm turning
3:29
seven. It's not 44 I, my degree was in home economics and food
3:35
marketing. And I worked in the Good Housekeeping Institute and
3:40
the Cordon Bleu cookery schools. And then I went freelance and my
3:45
first client and oh, we lasted for years together was Aga
3:49
cookers. I was worked my way up to being the global ambassador
3:53
for Aga. And I launched Aga all over the world, America, across
3:58
Europe, Canada, and I was the man that brought Aga to China. I
4:03
worked freelance and I also presented Food TV in China. I
4:08
was the only Westerner that I think has ever done it. I used
4:11
to get 100 million viewers a week on my TV shows. And I mean
4:18
the numbers are
4:19
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, you got even conceive of that kind of numbers
4:23
Unknown: 1.8 billion people. Yeah. And I got less than 10% of
4:28
them watching my shows. So yeah, yes it wasn't quite Saturday
4:32
Kitchen. No. So it was huge. I brought all of the business home
4:39
to my native Northern Ireland and from a farm in the middle of
4:41
nowhere, but I live in London and Peckham in the posh part, as
4:45
we call it. And I brought all the business home. And it was
4:49
very clear that because I'm gay, that the business wasn't welcome
4:54
in Northern Ireland in Northern Ireland and I have letters from
4:58
senior elected Northern Irish officials denying meetings
5:03
denying investment and I Oh, it was just awful. And they
5:07
publicly shamed me. And they hung me out to dry and they
5:11
sullied my name. And one day, I just couldn't function anymore.
5:17
I collapsed. And I could not move my leg down the bed for a
5:23
few weeks. My head was very dark, it did not make sense. I
5:27
did not know what to do. And if I didn't know what to do, I
5:31
didn't have the energy to do it. I was diagnosed with what was
5:35
called a moderately severe depressive episode, I spent a
5:39
full year in bed. There was little I haven't watched on
5:44
Netflix in that year, five years ago. Because I couldn't do
5:48
anything else. Until I decided, oh, let's try knitting. Well, I
5:56
found a pair of chopsticks and a bit of string in the flat.
5:59
looked on YouTube. Learnt how to cast on Thomas my other half
6:03
came home from work. Thomas is a doctor. We'll chat about him in
6:06
a bit. Yeah, I remember wiggling this cast on something or other
6:10
at him. I did this today love and he goes brilliant. Let's get
6:15
the wool,
6:17
Mia Hobbs: so he ran with it. He what? Because yes, he asked me
6:22
did why was it knitting? Do you think?
6:25
James McIntosh: Because what else can you do in bed when you
6:27
stuck home all day? So you see, I
6:30
Mia Hobbs: was like you tried other things. And then that was
6:32
the one that stuck in
6:34
James McIntosh: I was so scared. So anxious, so afraid. And my
6:38
head was so black with depression. I couldn't leave my
6:42
bed. I couldn't leave the bedroom. It was the it was
6:47
overwhelming. Anyway, Tommy got me beige alpaca and the big 12
6:53
millimetre needles you know, we bought an Erika Knight book on
6:57
men's knits and we knit a jumper and I couldn't read a pattern
7:02
really at that point. No. I still have the jumper it's a god
7:06
awful thing as I quoted to Knitting magazine once 15 sizes
7:11
too big. You look like a Von Trapp child with hand knitted
7:15
curtains for your garb. It's horrible.
7:19
Mia Hobbs: But it sounds like it served a very significant
7:21
purpose.
7:22
James McIntosh: Oh, yes. It's at the back of my wardrobe. But it
7:26
allowed me to love myself again. I when I first put that awful
7:30
thing on a creation that I had made. Even though it was beige,
7:34
I looked in the mirror and I thought I made this I am worth
7:37
something that I made for me. And you know, that beige allowed
7:43
me to start to get a wee glimpse of colour back into my world. I
7:47
was going to the Maudsley hospital every Thursday, I never
7:50
really expected to be an outpatient of the Maudsley
7:53
hospital. But you know, it was brilliant. They put me on a year
7:57
of psychodynamic psychotherapy. Why did these words need to
8:01
ssound so clinically? electrolyzing. You know, like,
8:05
yeah, like lobotomy. But it was nothing like that. I mean, if
8:11
they've called it self improvement, or something like
8:16
that, I would've found it easier to go. But I had a therapist who
8:21
was brilliant. She was tough. She was tough. And she helped me
8:26
realise that many times in life, I was not wrong. Because I was
8:35
different. Because I'm gay, in my native Northern Ireland, that
8:44
my thoughts and my feelings were worth something. And that I was
8:50
worth something. So I came home one night and what what I really
8:55
appreciated about psycho dynamic psychotherapy was, you would do
9:01
you hour, I was a Thursday I went, and then you'd have a
9:04
whole week to think about what you've done in that hour to come
9:09
back and complain next week. And then she would ask you why you
9:12
were complaining? And are you were feeling that the key to it
9:15
was that week in between? I would do a bit of my knitting at
9:19
home. And I realised that as a stitch is tangible, and vital in
9:26
a knitted project. So my feelings are tangible to me. And
9:32
if that stitch wasn't there, the whole thing would unravel.
9:35
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, that's true.
9:37
James McIntosh: And it would fall apart. So my thoughts and
9:42
my feelings were worth something to me and part of me. And I
9:49
joked one night and said this is knititation. Nothing for
9:54
fidgeters. I've got this busy brain. It's always busy. It was
9:57
always too fast. And I can't sit there do this meditation
10:01
malarkey or this mindfulness?
10:04
Mia Hobbs: I think you tried to do that had you before?
10:08
James McIntosh: Oh, yes, yes. I'll tell you about that in a
10:10
second? That doesn't work. But one stitch and then another
10:15
allows a sense of calm, it stops me fidgeting. So, I realised if
10:22
I knit consciously and mindfully, which means no
10:28
television, no radio, consciously feeling my feet on
10:31
the floor, my bum in the seat, my back in the chair, the
10:35
needles, the wool flowing through my fingers, and accept
10:38
those feelings and sensations in my body without judging,
10:44
analysing or changing them, or evaluating them, just accept
10:48
them. Yeah. That it will not solve the world's problems, but
10:53
it will help me solve mine. And that I will be able to cope.
11:01
Well I got out of bed, I got my life back. But the bit in the
11:05
middle of all of this is Thomas my other half. Thomas is a
11:10
senior consultant physician in a large central London teaching
11:13
hospital. And he's also a fellow of the Royal College of
11:16
Physicians. Thomas's inpatients are geriatrics and his
11:21
outpatients are related to autonomics. That's faint
11:24
blackouts and dizzy spells to you and me. Well, Thomas, is
11:29
very into his mindfulness. He's the only NHS consultant that we
11:34
know of, that has taken mindfulness outside of
11:38
psychiatry, and into clinical medicine. And Thomas uses
11:43
mindfulness to treat chronic illness and chronic pain. And he
11:47
may he may practices mindfulness for three hours a day, every
11:51
day. Wow. Yeah, I know. We've just celebrated 10 years
11:56
together last week.
11:57
Mia Hobbs: Congratulations.
11:59
James McIntosh: Thank you It is an achievement. Yeah. So Thomas,
12:06
for every night and morning, I have watched him do an hour of
12:12
mindfulness before bed, when he wakens up and an hour at
12:15
lunchtime. And I have seen the fruits of this in his life, in
12:21
my life, and in our lives together, but I couldn't do
12:24
this. And he would go Oh, James you have to do this we tried the
12:27
mindful movements. You know, we do the lower cobra on the floor.
12:30
And yeah, I wasn't having any of this it didn't work for me. As
12:34
we say in Northern Ireland. It did not float my boat. Yeah. The
12:38
knitting. malarkey works for me. Hmm. And knitting as a form of
12:43
mindfulness, not as a distraction technique works.
12:47
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And how did you guys was that a combination of
12:50
the two of you like was that Thomas adding his mindfulness
12:54
slant? It sounds like when you're doing it like that, it is
12:57
a very specific way of doing knitting. It's not about you
13:00
know how most people do knitting watching TV or, you know, it is
13:04
a very, much a mindfulness method of knitting. It's very
13:08
specific.
13:10
James McIntosh: Yeah, I mean, I get out of bed in the morning.
13:13
Yeah, I make myself a cuppa. And I sit in my office and just do
13:19
hours knitting. Okay? And that's
13:22
Mia Hobbs: doing it mindfully, like, Thomas, does this
13:25
meditation?
13:27
James McIntosh: Yeah, you know, then I watch the news after
13:30
that. And, you know, the news is on a loop at that time in the
13:34
morning, so you're not gonna miss much. And if you what I
13:39
learned was if I set my mind correctly at the start of the
13:43
day, the rest of the day flows. Now, what's really interesting
13:49
about my story, is there is no evidence that's been peer
13:54
reviewed, or anecdotal that we have found that shows how
13:59
knitting or mindfulness can get you out of depression. Right.
14:07
There is evidence to suggest that mindfulness based stress
14:11
reduction MBSR Yeah. Will delay will reduce the statistics of
14:19
someone who's had moderately severe and severe depression
14:22
from suffering again, right. Okay. What this has done for me
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is it got me better. This is my story. We cannot say this
14:33
medically. But this is my testimony and my story, and I am
14:38
alive and I am well and I am healthy because of knititation.
14:45
I lost my business over what happened. I've been able to
14:48
start a business. It's doing brilliant. Yeah, I mean,
14:52
McIntosh Wool, I hand dye all the wool myself. It's pure,
14:56
beautiful British wool. I do. Deramores, Do you know Deramores
15:04
the wool retailer, well they've just started to stock me, and
15:08
we're doing a whole campaign about living life with more
15:11
colour, but how to have more colour in your life, this colour
15:14
is like colours health colour is healing, the more colour I can
15:20
surround myself with, hmm, the better because it helps me stay
15:25
alive.
15:26
Mia Hobbs: So that's another therapeutic part of the knitting
15:30
process surrounding yourself. Yeah, I mean, I certainly have
15:34
times when I'm like, I need to knit with pink and yellow.
15:38
Because that's what I want to be around you just about you have a
15:40
long relationship with a knitting project when it's a big
15:42
garment. Don't you like it its in your hands, in your life?
15:46
James McIntosh: You see, you may have the luxury of that. I
15:49
don't. I have to be fast? Yeah. Do you know how many tension
15:55
squares I have to knit for the shop or retailer to see it.
16:01
Anytime a new fibre comes to me, I need to play with it. So I I'm
16:06
doing a sleeve a day at the moment. So that is quite I know.
16:13
so yes, I have my meditation, my mindful knitting first thing in
16:17
the morning. And then I do a lot of reading on the computer while
16:21
I am speed knitting to get garments for photography. Yeah.
16:25
Mia Hobbs: And has your relationship with knitting
16:27
changed now that it's I don't know, when the yarn brand
16:30
started. How long ago was that?
16:33
James McIntosh: You see what happened was I got better. And
16:36
then Thomas and I decided to go on holiday. And we we went we
16:40
decided to go to pride in Tel Aviv. Okay, the plane landed in
16:46
Tel Aviv. We can go on the phone and Thomas's mum had dropped
16:49
dead.
16:49
Mia Hobbs: Oh, no, I'm sorry to hear that.
16:52
James McIntosh: Well, Thomas is German. What do we do? Stay
16:55
here, go back to London go to Germany. We did not know what to
16:59
do. She died at home. The police took six weeks in Germany just
17:02
to make sure all was okay. And it was just awful. We went to
17:06
Jerusalem. It was a beautiful city to go to when you're in
17:10
that sort of situation. We have the funeral in Germany. And the
17:14
day after my mum was diagnosed with late term ovarian cancer.
17:18
Mia Hobbs: Oh, I'm so sorry.
17:20
James McIntosh: Nine months to the day. The Thomas's mother
17:22
passed mine did and it was the first week of lockdown. There
17:26
were no flights from London to Belfast. I held my knitting
17:29
tighter. I was the only one I remember in Heathrow terminal
17:34
five that day. When I got home, my mom who was 71 looked 95.
17:39
There was no morphine available. My mother screamed for hours in
17:43
my arms, because the health system in Northern Ireland had
17:46
collapsed.
17:47
Mia Hobbs: So sorry,
17:49
James McIntosh: We were not allowed a funeral. We were not
17:49
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. So you really have kind of kept yourself going
17:51
allowed neighbours. We were not allowed family. We were not
17:54
allowed support. We were on our own. And my knitting stayed in
17:58
my hands. And that stitch was a breath and the next one was a
18:02
with the knitting through all of that trauma.
18:02
scream of pain and the next was a loving memory. And if it w
18:07
sn't for that knitting, but I have not been depressed since
18:13
managed to get through this hor endous tsunami. I did not get de
18:17
James McIntosh: I mean, the best credit, a lot of it was there
18:18
ressed again. I then managed to ive up smoking by stopping by k
18:24
itting. I'd smoked for 23 ye rs. 20 a day. I am six month
18:29
and two weeks smoke and nicot ne free. Do I see the health
18:33
enefits? Yeah, don't cough on t e pillow every morning. And th
18:36
t wee bit on my finger's not y llow anymore. There's mor
18:40
to this knitting malarkey than meets the eye. So when I st
18:44
rt my business, I started Macint sh Wool two years ago, but I h
18:48
d to take a year out because f Mum. Oh sure. Yeah. And
18:54
ou know, it's a blessing. And we just want to spread the
18:58
good news about knitting. And e, human and tell people it's
19:02
okay to cry. It's okay to bre k down. Just hold something in
19:05
our two hands and make a s itch because that s
19:20
was somebody in the Olympics, who decided to do my marketing
19:24
for me. I wasn't the only wee boy knitting You know, there was
19:28
another one. I just stopped back and I just thought he'd gone.
19:32
But I've never seen items as fast in my life as what was
19:36
coming off a certain Instagram profile. Hey, yeah.
19:41
Mia Hobbs: So yes, Tom Daley was doing the marketing for you. Did
19:45
you like I did get hundreds of your friends who don't have
19:48
nothing to do with knitting sending you. Have you seen this
19:51
at the olympics?
19:52
James McIntosh: you seen this? Have you seen this? Yes. Yes,
19:58
just because he looks better than me with his top off is not
20:00
my problem
20:01
Mia Hobbs: the rest of us just don't do it in speedos.
20:06
James McIntosh: So no knitting has saved my life. Well, I would
20:09
have committed suicide by now without it. Men don't talk men
20:12
can't talk. And I was watching a lot of the parliamentary Select
20:20
Committee yesterday. About Yorkshire cricket. Oh, yes. And
20:25
I was very interested to hear the guy who was racially abused.
20:30
He said, for a lot of my life. I went along with things they
20:35
said, because they told me it wasn't racist. And I know that
20:41
from homophobia in Northern Ireland. It was okay, all my
20:46
life for people to call me a poof or a fruit. And I had to
20:52
accept that was okay. And it's only now that we are getting the
20:56
freedom to say I am worth something. Don't call me that.
21:01
Knitting has given me the strength for that.
21:04
Mia Hobbs: Wow. So that's amazing.
21:06
James McIntosh: Oh, we'll get great jumpers too.
21:10
Mia Hobbs: But you know, the other stuff, you know, and I
21:12
think it can take some time to go back over all those memories
21:15
and think actually, that wasn't okay. Yeah.
21:19
James McIntosh: I don't like doing moss stitch because
21:20
there's too much back and forwards. And I use that as
21:22
anger management.
21:27
Mia Hobbs: And, I mean, does does the type of knitting make a
21:31
difference to you? Do you? Does it matter whether it's like you
21:35
said moss stitch or stockinette or a pattern or colour work or,
21:40
or not particularly?
21:42
James McIntosh: It depends what I do I There is not enough in
21:46
the market for men. It is really hard to get a nice pattern for a
21:51
bloke you know, the market, it's barren for it. I wrote a book on
21:56
it, Knit and Nibble, but apart from that, there's not much. Um,
22:02
Mia Hobbs: there was a men's Knitting magazine for a while. I
22:05
don't know if it's still around.
22:06
James McIntosh: Rib. No it's gone.
22:07
Mia Hobbs: Oh, has it?
22:10
James McIntosh: You know, then we had I tried to stick to
22:14
blokes and gender neutral. I will expand into other things
22:18
but I'm a small company, you know, and I'm only just starting
22:20
to get knitting patterns together now for my brand. Yeah,
22:23
I can't stand intarsia I just can't those bobbins get all
22:28
messed up. I just don't want that in my life. Yeah. Other
22:33
people seem to like it. Yeah, do love a good bit of fairisle. I
22:36
mean, a multicoloured stranded yoke can just bring so much joy,
22:40
it can tell a story. And you can knit your mood in it. You know,
22:45
your pattern repeats. I hate doing the mathematics for
22:49
knitting. But Thomas does that. For me. He's great with a
22:52
calculator, and he enjoys that
22:54
Mia Hobbs: for patterns do you mean for developing patterns.
22:57
Yeah, yeah. Right, like calculating yards and that kind
23:00
of thing.
23:01
James McIntosh: I mean, if he can do morphine doses and stuff
23:04
that's important in hospital in his head and he can, he can do
23:07
shaping of garments as well. I just don't enjoy that bit.
23:13
Mia Hobbs: Does he knit?
23:14
James McIntosh: No, I've banned him from knitting.
23:15
Mia Hobbs: Okay. It's your thing.
23:17
James McIntosh: That's my thing. He doesn't have time to be
23:20
honest. He does crochet which I'm trying to learn. Okay. Do
23:25
you crochet?
23:26
Mia Hobbs: Well, I have and I do occasionally. And if I was
23:31
making a toy or something 3D, I might choose crochet over
23:37
knitting, maybe because I've done a couple because I wanted
23:40
the thing to give to somebody or something. And I don't find it
23:46
as I don't choose it. anywhere near as often as knitting. I
23:50
also think in terms of the physical action, I would get
23:55
more kind of RSI type pain. If I did it. And I think I prefer the
23:59
fabric of knitting personally.
24:01
James McIntosh: I'm trying to learn crochet at the moment. And
24:04
if any listeners would like to come I will cook lunch if you'd
24:07
show because every online video I've looked on how to do a
24:11
granny square the I get lost? No. Okay. I'm not daft I've got
24:16
a Master of Arts Degree. Yeah, I can follow things, but they show
24:22
you once. And then they go really fast and finish. Oh,
24:26
okay. I need to see what the treble is again, please. Slow
24:30
down!
24:30
Mia Hobbs: I think we, you know, I started knitting before. I
24:36
think YouTube was a thing, but I think it is much easier
24:38
generally to learn from because I think I learned from a book.
24:44
But much easier to learn from seeing somebody and I've had a
24:47
couple of people who've asked me to teach them to knit over zoom
24:50
and I'm thinking really would be quite challenging. I think it's
24:53
better to watch a video produced by somebody who has a proper
24:56
camera that's on their hands. For example.
24:59
James McIntosh: I For Oh, for three years until lockdown, I
25:04
haven't re-started. I ran a knitting group in Peckham. Okay.
25:07
Yeah, we get up to 96 came. I mean, it was. Yeah. But
25:11
everybody needed to learn to knit. Right? Yeah. So you start
25:15
with a tension square. If you can get your tension, you can go
25:18
on to a hat. Well, it was 96 drop stitches. Well I gave up,
25:22
okay, if I bought everybody a Jager bomb at the bar. 96
25:27
dropped stitches.
25:28
Mia Hobbs: They were all new knitters, were they? Oh, wow.
25:32
That's, I mean, that's a lot. I'm running a therapeutic
25:34
knitting group in a primary school. And I've found eight new
25:37
knitters, you know, a lot. They are children. So they've
25:41
obviously got other, you know, I have to also help them find the
25:44
scissors or allow them to go to the toilet and that kind of
25:49
thing. But, yeah, I think you do need an element of one to one
25:53
support when you're just starting, don't you and then
25:55
once you've got the flow of things, I think the other thing
25:57
that's challenging over Zoom is sometimes you do just need to
26:00
hand your knitting to somebody who knows what on earth has
26:02
happened when it's gone wrong. And get them to help you
26:06
James McIntosh: we're actually recording this over zoom, as do
26:09
you want this sleeve, because theres a dropped stitch you can
26:11
see it as you're interviewing.
26:14
There's a dropped stitch is there? No
26:15
Of course there is, I'll fix it up later at the end. It's for
26:21
photography. No you do. And th re is something caring about
26:27
eaching someone to knits, you k ow, there is I am inter
26:32
sted in your well being let m work with you. It's about a fri
26:38
ndliness. It's you can talk bout things that are perso
26:42
al. And talk about things that re deep. You can talk about
26:46
life love, and you know, wash n cold water, dry flat and ri
26:53
se and repeat. Yeah, life is tho e stitches.
26:58
Mia Hobbs: Do you feel like people talk more in a knitting
27:01
group kind of environment? Because I suppose I wonder
27:03
whether the lack of kind of intense eye contact and people
27:07
kind of talk as they work on something. And sometimes that
27:10
makes people more likely to share something because they're
27:13
busy with their hands.
27:16
James McIntosh: One lady came to knitting group one night, her
27:19
husband died that morning. She just wanted to be at her
27:22
knitting group. Yeah, because she knew she could talk. And
27:27
what an honour an honour it is. To start something with somebody
27:31
will tell you that. I just gave her the biggest hug.
27:35
Mia Hobbs: I've found you know, it's a way of giving someone
27:38
comforts it's really hard, isn't it when someone's been through a
27:40
bereavement from the outside to know what.
27:43
James McIntosh: tell me about it from the inside.
27:45
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, exactly. And that's a whole nother story. But
27:48
even from the outside thinking, how can I be helpful to this
27:50
person, but I guess sitting alongside them and knitting
27:53
without,
27:54
James McIntosh: at a time, one stitch at a time. It's not a
27:59
race unless you own the wool company
28:02
Mia Hobbs: And has that changed how you feel about the knitting.
28:06
James. I'm wondering.
28:08
James McIntosh: I have my knitting. Yeah, and I have my
28:11
work knitting
28:12
Mia Hobbs: Okay, so that's separate.
28:13
James McIntosh: Yeah. Work is about coloured blocks and stitch
28:18
patterns. My knitting is about a jumper for me. Yeah. No. As we
28:25
talk, I've sent some stuff out to designers. And I'm absolutely
28:28
shocked that a two skein shawl has been knit in three days. And
28:35
when we come off this interview, I'm going to have a look to see
28:38
what it is because I've been sent a picture of it. They can't
28:40
wait. I don't know how Brian Smith Designs has knit that
28:44
fast.
28:45
Mia Hobbs: Wow. That's very fast.
28:47
James McIntosh: I know.
28:48
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. Is knitting ever unhelpful for your mental
28:51
health?
28:53
James McIntosh: No, no, no, because, you know, his best bet
28:56
is if you get really peeved off with a pattern, yeah, you just
29:02
put it in the bag. I've got 72 of them. My PhDs my project half
29:06
dones. Oh, I haven't found it. I have knit everywhere. I mean,
29:11
everywhere. Around the world, knitting. There is no problem
29:16
getting needles on a plane. I have.
29:19
Mia Hobbs: I used to worry a lot about that though. I did bring a
29:22
crochet hook once because I was thinking well, they're not
29:24
surely they're not going to take that off me.
29:26
James McIntosh: I just cry at security. Don't take my needles
29:32
away. And I've knit in nightclubs I used to knit in the
29:35
Royal Vauxhall Tavern and discos to get things finished. i Oh,
29:41
the night bus used to be really good the N63 night bus in
29:44
London. Yeah, I've knit everywhere. Do you know you only
29:48
ever get a smile and you are just sending love from your
29:51
knitting needle to somebody else? And there was one night
29:56
and these blokes got on the N63 Night bus Thomas and I were
29:59
coming home from a Night Club and let's just say they looked
30:04
like they were well oiled gentlemen with alcohol. Yeah.
30:08
And he was a big bruiser. And there was a fight about to
30:11
start. And he looks at me and he goes, my granny used to do that,
30:16
can I feel your balls? I said, Excuse me. I said, my Merino. He
30:23
calmed down, he sat beside me. And he said, that wool just
30:29
feels like what my granny used to knit for me. And she was
30:31
really, kind to me.
30:33
Mia Hobbs: That's amazing.
30:35
James McIntosh: I was about to die.
30:36
Mia Hobbs: It diffused everything
30:41
James McIntosh: Do you know what knitting makes you smile, it
30:44
gives people hope. And I think specially, during and after the
30:50
pandemic, especially with the climate crisis. You know, we
30:56
need to look at our fibres carefully now, I know not
31:00
everybody can afford new wool. But we need to consider manmade
31:06
fibres carefully. We need to consider what the petrochemical
31:10
industry makes, we need to consider making yarns out of
31:15
kerosene. And we need to be careful about this. Because the
31:20
fossil fuel it takes to make them and they don't biodegrade.
31:25
And we need to look at this and it is I don't have an answer.
31:29
Yeah. I know the price of hand dyed pure British wool, yeah,
31:35
not everybody can afford that.
31:37
Mia Hobbs: Yes, it's expensive.
31:38
James McIntosh: It is. And I'm not yarn shaming. I'm looking at
31:43
a debate. There's also a medical research paper that's out you
31:48
can it's very easy to Google and it shows where there is acrylic
31:53
fibre in human lung tissue, okay. Right. This is this is
31:58
serious, you know. But we have to look at this sensibly, we
32:04
have to look at microplastics but all this will start to
32:07
happen. You know, COP26, I must say to get as far as they did
32:13
with so many nations and so many cultures and so much invested
32:17
financial interest for countries. I was impressed
32:20
knitting, for me is mental health, but knitting is life. It
32:24
is family, it is society, it is environment. It is industry, it
32:28
is economics, it is farming, it is food production. It is it is
32:33
politics. Knitting is not just one thing.
32:37
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, you can make, I don't know demonstrate your
32:40
values, I suppose. And make choices about your politics by
32:44
what yarn you choose and what fibres you're using and
32:49
James McIntosh: what Pussy hat you wear. And that I am proud of
32:53
you know, the pussy hat whenever Trump was a little bit crude
32:57
with his as he called locker room talk. unexcusable
33:02
ignorance.
33:03
Mia Hobbs: Do you want to just explain for people who don't
33:06
know about that? Because it was a few years ago now, isn't it
33:08
when Trump was elected
33:09
James McIntosh: When Trump was elected He said the most
33:12
disgusting thing about females about why he wanted to grab
33:16
them. And he excused it by saying it was a locker room
33:20
talk. Well, I'm sorry. That was degrading, misogynistic, and
33:24
just, quite frankly, disgusting. So the ladies in America decided
33:30
right can, we do best knitting. But they do other things better.
33:35
So what they were doing was actually playing to the
33:37
stereotype and just saying, don't mess with us. So they
33:41
developed what was termed the pussy hat is what we would know
33:45
Shapeways as a tea bag hat. So a large rectangle folded over and
33:50
it was in pink. And they used a yarn originally from a wonderful
33:54
company I know very well in South America called Malabrigo.
33:58
And they developed this and they wore it in their 1000s to the
34:03
rallies to protest against Trump. And if something so
34:07
innocent as knitting can make a colourful sea of statement
34:12
across the world, what hope is there for us in those stitches
34:18
and how blessed are we to knit those stitches?
34:21
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. So it really is knitted politics.
34:25
James McIntosh: It's knitted life is visibility to the to the
34:29
invisible in society. It is saying I am here. This is my
34:34
statement, and you will see me I will knit because I am worth
34:39
something like those knitted stitches are worth something.
34:44
Oh, I'm all for knitting. Yeah.
34:47
Mia Hobbs: And it's so important and it has been throughout your
34:50
life in so many different ways, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And I
34:56
always ask on the podcast about a significant project. If you
35:00
wouldn't mind telling me it sounds like there's been a lot.
35:03
James McIntosh: There was one.
35:04
Mia Hobbs: There's one. Okay.
35:05
James McIntosh: There was one. I grew up with a lady called
35:07
Kerry. And she she married a friend of ours called Dean on
35:13
the farm next door. And when mum died, she came with a casserole.
35:20
And she jumped out of the car and said James. I know there's
35:23
COVID I am giving you a hug, because you need one. Kerry came
35:26
to see me every day. And it was lockdown. And I wanted to say
35:31
thank you when I got back to London, and I knit a blanket.
35:39
it was known as a Hue Afghan Shift blanket. Okay, I can't
35:44
remember who designed it. I can look it up on Ravelry. Okay. And
35:50
it was mitre squares that joined together, it was huge. And it
35:56
made a cross in the middle and an just a display of colour from
36:00
top to bottom corner to corner is gorgeous. And I knit it for
36:05
Kerry one stitch at a time. It was all done in garter stitch.
36:09
So I could put my grief and my tears into that without having
36:14
to think Yeah. And as this grew, and as the colours grew, I
36:20
realised that the end there was a beautiful yellow cross in the
36:23
middle of it. And then this was my grief blanket, I called it
36:29
and you know what? The most important bit of that blanket
36:34
was giving it away. And I gave it to Kerry. And I was just
36:40
like, I had to give my mum away. My tears and the pain and my
36:45
feeling and my anger and my happiness and my sad and my
36:48
worry and My strength. And every fibre of what I was struggling
36:54
with, I put into that blanket.
36:58
Mia Hobbs: And that's amazing actually James the bit about
37:00
giving it away because I've heard a few other people talk
37:03
about significant projects and getting them through
37:05
bereavements.
37:06
James McIntosh: Yeah, you have to give it away, and then it's,
37:09
Mia Hobbs: but I haven't heard anyone else who's given it away.
37:11
And that's really interesting that you know, the parallel with
37:14
having to give your mum away
37:16
James McIntosh: Grief has to be shared. Grief has to be shared
37:20
because there were many people who loved my mum. I mean, mum,
37:23
mum was a home economics teacher. She was a farmer's
37:26
wife. She ran the ladies group in church, she ran the, the
37:30
infants and babies and toddlers group in church and mum was the
37:34
community. And we were not allowed a funeral. Do you know
37:39
what that was? Like? We were allowed 10 minutes in the
37:43
garden. So I had to do something for Kerry, who loved my mum too
37:50
who I had to do something to make this all, it will never be
37:53
okay. Yeah, but I had to set Mum free in my heart. Yeah. And I
38:00
did it. And I gave it away because the metaphor of if you
38:04
really love someone, you set them free is not about love and
38:08
two teenagers falling out when they're going out. It's about
38:12
losing, deeply losing. But you know, my mum's still with me I
38:16
chat to her every day. We talk about the stitches.
38:19
Mia Hobbs: Was she a knitter?
38:20
James McIntosh: Oh, yes. Okay.Oh, yeah. Oh, mum, knitting
38:25
and crocheting crafts. And our mum was stunning at it and
38:28
embroidery. And yeah.
38:30
Mia Hobbs: Do you think maybe that planted a seed for you?
38:32
Like maybe that was why your brain went to that place when
38:34
you were needing something you could do in your bed?
38:37
James McIntosh: Oh, no. Mum said to me quite clearly. Boys don't
38:40
do that. It's okay. So mum came over in the middle of my
38:44
depression and brought her to John Lewis. And that's how it
38:47
all started really. So yeah. Mum Mum helped me a lot with it. And
38:52
for Knit and Nibble. Mum did some of the some of the jumpers
38:55
for me, but
38:55
Mia Hobbs: Okay, so you did knit together later on?
38:59
James McIntosh: Well, she did it in Northern Ireland. I did it
39:01
here, pray the Lord for FaceTime. And yeah, away we go.
39:04
Yeah. So yeah. This hasn't been too heavy a podcast for you.
39:09
It's
39:09
not at all I think it's it's just amazing how important
39:14
knitting has been and how you've also really used it very
39:17
deliberately, mindfully, intentionally for like you said,
39:22
keeping yourself going, saving your life, managing some really
39:26
difficult times discrimination, bereavement, you know, making
39:30
political protest, protest, you know, it's really, but knitting
39:35
is all of those things. And like you said, it is, you know,
39:38
exactly, so I think it's really and probably not many of us
39:42
think about all of those things that often and I guess that is
39:45
part of the podcast is thinking about actually, a lot of
39:48
knitters really feel it is very significant to them. So I don't
39:51
think you're going to be alone in having, you know, like I
39:56
said, bereavement something that's come up very often when
39:58
people talk about significant projects. But I think you've
40:02
definitely thought about all of these things and the role of
40:06
knitting a lot more than most people and articulated those
40:09
thoughts.
40:10
I've got on my knitmcintosh.com website, I've got a little bot.
40:14
So when I'm not there, you know, you can type in questions and
40:18
the bot will give you answers that are pre programmed in.
40:22
Yeah. And a lot of people use it. And what we've noticed, when
40:27
I get up in the morning, if I'm not there to answer the
40:29
questions, I get an email with what people have typed. So I can
40:32
get back to them. You know, people tell me their stories,
40:35
people tell me about the worry that the can't be with their
40:38
husband who's had a heart attack and how they're nothing's kept
40:41
on going. And there's something viral happening privately viral,
40:46
that by me being able to tell my story, other people are telling
40:50
there's that people are finding freedom, and they're nothing and
40:54
talking about it. And this is all good. This is wonderful
41:00
therapy. This is then I am here, and then they can wear it. They
41:04
can wear their story, in bright colours and be proud of it. And
41:09
rightly so.
41:11
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And I think it's something certainly from my
41:13
conversation with Betsan Corkhill, who
41:16
James McIntosh: Oh Betsan is wonderful, she helped me start
41:18
my journey.
41:19
Mia Hobbs: And she talks a lot about therapeutic knitting. And
41:22
the way she started was by discovering this filing cabinet
41:26
at a Knitting magazine or crafting magazine that where
41:29
they had all of these letters from people who'd, who were
41:33
writing about the significance of their story with knitting,
41:37
and it was a filing cabinet that she discovered and turned into,
41:41
you know, the catalyst for the rest of her career, really. But
41:45
now, I guess it's happening more online, so other people can
41:49
share and interact with those stories more, I think, whereas
41:52
previously when they sat in a physical filing cabinet, maybe
41:55
that was more difficult.
41:58
James McIntosh: What I love most about Betson was how She
42:01
struggled to get research published on knitting So she
42:04
changed it quite sensibly to instead of calling it knitting
42:07
into a bilateral rhythmic psychosocial intervention. Of
42:10
course, everybody wants to fund a bilateral rhythmic
42:13
psychosocial intervention and give it money, you know, well
42:16
done, you Betsan.
42:18
Mia Hobbs: James I always ask about knitting high and low,
42:21
they can be deep and meaningful or entirely frivolous, whatever
42:26
comes to mind for you.
42:28
James McIntosh: I think you've dealt with the lows. I think
42:31
I've told you about the love. That's the highs. Yeah. And I
42:37
don't know, I think I've covered that well. I have knit all over
42:40
the world. Oh, knitting high lying in the Dead Sea. Which was
42:45
the day after Thomas's mum died. And I was lying in the Dead Sea.
42:49
Knitting
42:49
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. Wow. And how did you keep it dry?
42:53
James McIntosh: I put it on my tummy.
42:55
Mia Hobbs: And you were that boyant?
42:57
James McIntosh: ,you're only going up to your knees and walk
42:59
in backwards. And you just sit down? Yeah. And it throws you
43:03
over. So my whole tummy was dry,
43:05
Mia Hobbs: and you were knitting there? Yeah, extraordinary.
43:09
Yeah, definitely sounds like a knitting like a once in a
43:11
lifetime.
43:13
James McIntosh: No it makes me sound like I'm weird. And I need
43:16
to go back to the Maudsley for more.
43:18
Mia Hobbs: Sounds like you're very dedicated knitter just
43:20
depends on what spin you put on it James. Indeed, do you find it
43:26
and you end up striking up conversations with random people
43:28
because they see you knitting?
43:30
James McIntosh: The most Random? Honestly, I mean, who else knits
43:35
in a night club, I mean there was a very famous gay nightclub
43:39
back in the 90s. called Heaven. Yeah, it's still going well,
43:43
there was a certain sound of music in the 90s naughties in
43:48
Heaven. And they were doing a tribute to it at the Royal
43:51
Vauxhall Tavern one night, but I had a photography sample to do
43:55
and I haven't heard this music in years. And I really wanted
43:58
to go out and just be it. You know? 20 something again? Yeah.
44:02
So I was clubbing doing my knitting I think to get it
44:08
finished, and do you know what it worked.
44:11
Mia Hobbs: Are there any places where you feel like the knitting
44:14
has helped you? I don't know feel okay in a place. I don't
44:17
own a doctor's waiting room or that it's helped. I don't know
44:21
whether it helped him that night bus whether you felt
44:23
James McIntosh: my biggest phobia is injection needles. is
44:27
cruel phobia to have. It's awful. Getting COVID Jobs was
44:30
not easy. was not easy. I had to get quite a bit of diazepam from
44:36
a doctor. It was it was not Thomas, by the way. It was not
44:40
easy. During my depression, I needed some dental work done.
44:48
And I couldn't but Christine who goes to my knitting group. She's
44:51
a dentist, okay. And I sit in her chair knitting. While she
44:56
does my dental injections and that's how we do it. Wow.
45:00
Mia Hobbs: And that helped enough to get you to manage it
45:02
James McIntosh: i still scream like a two year old. So you're
45:05
killing me, but it just didn't do it. He just, I can do it.
45:09
Yeah, I don't like it, but I can do. And I do have a shake after
45:14
my body just shakes after having injection, but I can still get
45:17
it done. Yeah. And everybody's got something like this.
45:20
Everybody. I was scared about giving up smoking. The thought
45:27
of being not being a nonsmoker. But the thought about giving up
45:31
something that I'd done habitually for 20 odd years.
45:35
Yeah, it did scare me. But knitting just. A stitch is a
45:41
breath stitch, A stitch is tangible. So I am and if I can
45:46
make this stitch, I can do whatever I need to do.
45:49
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, that's amazing
45:51
James McIntosh: that answer your question does?
45:54
Mia Hobbs: And it feels kind of, I don't know whether it's
45:58
slightly frivolous to ask this question when you've offered so
46:01
much. But I always end with asking the greatest gift that
46:05
knitting has given you for the rest of your life. And I guess
46:07
for you, maybe it's difficult to pin down because it's
46:09
James McIntosh: Oh, no. That's easy. My greatest gift through
46:13
knitting? Yeah, is a song that the late and very great Whitney
46:18
Houston sang. And that is once I have learned to love myself, it
46:23
is the greatest gift of all. And when I've got that no one, no
46:27
matter how hard they try, with homophobia with whatever, they
46:32
cannot take away my dignity, because through knitting, I have
46:36
found me.
46:39
Mia Hobbs: And that's the ultimate. It is. Yeah, the key
46:42
to all of the other things.
46:44
James McIntosh: I have peace in myself. You know, and that's,
46:48
that's not an easy thing to find. No. But I've done that
46:52
through knitting.
46:53
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, that's amazing. Thank you so much for sharing.
46:56
James McIntosh: Thank you for having me.
46:58
It was an absolute pleasure to talk to you. And can you just
47:03
let us know? Because I'm sure there'll be lots of people who
47:05
want to find out about your yarn and your books, and
47:09
my knititation
47:10
Exactly. So just tell people what are the best ways to get in
47:14
touch or to find out what you're up to?
47:17
would just come and see me online at knitmcintosh.com.
47:21
That's knit K.N.I.T. mcintosh.com. At KnitMcIntosh on
47:30
all the socials. Come and see me drop me an email. I normally say
47:33
Hello, nice and friendly.
47:35
Mia Hobbs: Thank you so much, James.
47:36
James McIntosh: Pleasure. Thank you, Mia.
47:39
Mia Hobbs: Thank you for listening to the Why I Knit
47:40
podcast. If you'd like to find out more about therapeutic
47:43
knitting you can follow me on Instagram
47:45
@knittingistherapeutic. Or check out my website
47:48
therapeuticknitting.org. To be notified when a new podcast is
47:52
released. Please subscribe on your podcast app.