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The female CEO leading the East West Rail project · Project Podcast

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Welcome to the APM Podcast. AM is the chartered body for the
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project profession. My name is Emma De Vita and I'm
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the editor of Project APM's Quarterly journal and your Host
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and this podcast. I'm speaking with Beth W, CEO of
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East West Rail and Transport Project that will open up a
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corridor from Oxford through Milton Keynes and Bedford to
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Cambridge and connect the UK's two leading life sciences and
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tech hotspots. Welcome back, Thanks for joining
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us today on the PM podcast. Perhaps a good place to start
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would be for you to give us a bit of background about the
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history of the project, what the overall plan is, and where
0:48
things are right now in July. Of course so since the 90s and
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local authorities across the region from Oxford to Cambridge
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and even even wider than that, have been really advocating for
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the rights of the restoration of an East West Link between Oxford
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and Cambridge in particular, but going West of Oxford and and
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east of Cambridge. And so in the early 20 teens a
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business case was made to start the construction of of East West
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Rail. So the first phase from Oxford
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to Vista is up and operating. The The next phase, from from
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Vista to Bletchley, is under construction now, which is run
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by a Network Rail alliance. Is actually not part of East
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West Railway Company, but it's a Network Rail alliance with Lang
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O'Rourke and Atkins and local vessels.
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And then East Austral was set, Eastrail Company was set up in
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2018 really to be something different from from Network Rail
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to be blunt about it and to really look at what could be
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done differently in the rail sector very much in in a
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vertical integration kind of way.
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So can reconnecting train and track and to look at really how
2:00
do you more cost effectively and more quickly deliver new railway
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infrastructure? So so the railway line already
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had the business case made from Oxford to Bletchley.
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There is an existing railway line called the Marston Vale
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line between Bletchley and Bedford that was stopped from
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closing back in the post beeching days and it's been run
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as a community railway and but it it only run runs one train an
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hour each way. Normally that railway stopped
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passenger services at the moment because the rolling stock
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provider went into administration.
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So unfortunately at the moment the, the customers have to take
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a real replacement bus. And so part of our scheme is to
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upgrade that line so that it could take more than one train
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per hour each way. And then we're building a new
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line between Bedford and Cambridge.
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So we've done a couple of statutory, non statutory
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consultations on the on the line of route to see what the
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communities want. You know we looked at a bunch of
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different alignments to see what was going to be the best
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alignment and how we might upgrade the Marston Vale line
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And there was a bit of a hiccup back in 2021 and we we were
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really asked to really look at the strategic case again off the
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back of that we completed the work and looked at alternatives
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to drive the cost down. And before we were able to get
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the conclusion of that, we had a couple of changes of government
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and really happily though, we've had a huge amount of support
3:22
from the current government. And we were mentioned by the
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Chancellor in last year's Autumn Statement and this year's budget
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and in May we announced our preferred route announcement so
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that we can move towards submitting our planning
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application. So what comes next is that we
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are designing a way we've been holding public drop in events
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and will continue to have public engagement throughout the autumn
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and into the New year. But we are targeting starting
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our statutory consultation process in the first half of
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next year so that we're able to submit our development consent
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order, which is our planning application after the general
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election and you joined in April 2022.
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So what point was everything at then?
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It was deeply uncertain when I joined, I have to say.
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So we weren't sure if we were going to have a project and my
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first hundred days sort of coincided with the Prime
4:14
Minister resigning. So, you know, what I was doing
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is trying to drive us towards making a decision and getting,
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you know, trying to to really look at the organisation and and
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make sure we were heading in the right direction.
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And all that was going along and we were making a recommendation
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and it was all, you know, going, you know, progressing.
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And then we had this big political change.
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So we had to take a step back, figure out how do we?
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How do we engage with potential incoming governments and
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convince them that that it's the right scheme and that we should
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continue to go ahead? So we did a lot of work from
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July until. Really until November, December
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talking to the to the candidates teams, the new and then the new,
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the new governments about scheme and and that it was, it was
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really a good idea to do it. Especially looking at the
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potential for growth across the region which is a, you know it
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has huge amounts of of high potential based on very 21st
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century businesses and areas of development.
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So life sciences in in Cambridge for example, our business case
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is really driven from the opportunities that the railway
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provides rather than just some railway infrastructure.
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How do you measure the success of the project?
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What are the deliverables you're looking to achieve?
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So it's bigger than just delivering a railway, It's
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actually thinking about how it will grow the economy, linking
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those two kind of tech hotspots together.
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Exactly. And and you know Milton Keynes
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and Bedford and and really helping create water benefits
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for the communities in between as well and you know more people
5:45
on trains mean fewer people on roads.
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So even if you're not necessarily somebody who's going
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to take take a train journey, what you should be getting the
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benefit of is fewer people driving through your village on
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the way to get somewhere else. But our our business case is
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really driven off of the opportunity to.
6:01
To to develop growth and there's a potential National
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Infrastructure Commission forecasted there were potential
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additional 80,000 jobs in Cambridge alone.
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So the question is where do you get, you know, where do you get
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those people from Cambridge is really expensive.
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Cost of living there is really, really high.
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They don't have that opportunity for lots of development.
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There's a green belt and so you have to look at, well, where are
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people going to be able to live that is affordable in the
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region? There's already a railway line
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that runs NS like everywhere in the country and people who live
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South of Cambridge, the housing is really expensive there.
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So they tend to gravitate towards London jobs.
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People already do come down from north of Cambridge but where
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property prices are actually a lot lower is to the to the east
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and to the West. And so the the opportunity is to
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to work with the local authorities which is you know
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this is their responsibility to to look at local plans and local
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planning to build railway stations and places where
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there's potential for new places and and that's where you know
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huge amount of the benefits are going to come from which will be
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about creating the links and for.
7:05
The opportunities for people and businesses to establish
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themselves near Cambridge, to get into those jobs in Cambridge
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and then also to get you know businesses more widely
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throughout the region. Because what we've seen in
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places is that a lot of times you want businesses want to have
7:20
their sort of their science hub. For example, you know people
7:23
want to be at the the Cambridge Biomedical campus, but if
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they're going to do some manufacturing they might want to
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take that slightly outside of Cambridge but near be nearby.
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So by having East West Rail allows for companies to be able
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to go to Bedford, for example, and and establish something
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there because they're able to get there really quickly by
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public transport. Yeah, OK, that makes sense.
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And what drew you to the role? I mean the reason I've been
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infrastructure in the 1st place is because I care about what
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infrastructure does for people. Infrastructure is there to
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enable people to live their lives and the better we provide
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our infrastructure, the the better, you know, that should be
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helping people's lives get better.
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And the railway, I think by being its size as well, you
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know, it's not a huge project. It's allows us to to do some
8:08
stuff. I think that's really different
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from other big infrastructure projects.
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What do you mean? So one of the things is the
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biggest thing for me is how do we connect with our communities
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and how do we? Actually collaborate with our
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communities and Co create where it's appropriate, what the right
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outcomes are going to be because every place is you know every
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place in England is different, every place in the UK is
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different and every every place across this region is different.
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And so not every solution that we might come up with is going
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to be right for each place. So the interest, the interesting
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thing for me is how do we talk to our communities and say OK at
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Camborne station, how do we get really good door to door connect
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connectivity is that we work with the local authority to
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develop cycle paths and they have really good pre bookable
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cycle storage is that we have some.
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Really. Interesting local bus networks
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that that just sort of you know could come up with something
9:03
that's really helpful to get people from from their houses to
9:06
to the station. But then we need to design the
9:08
station really well to have that pre bookable cycle storage or
9:11
that but good bus connectivity and that's going to be different
9:15
from place to place. And so it it's that engagement
9:19
and then talking to people and really understanding what their,
9:21
what they want will create a better outcome because it's been
9:26
designed for the people who are going to use it.
9:28
I've obviously done a bit of reading around and I was come
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across the idea that you're quite up for innovating project
9:35
delivery or trying different things.
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Or tell me a bit about that. So I I've also done lots of
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reading and research and and and I feel like we all know that the
9:46
construction industry and the rail industry hasn't really
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evolved much and doesn't have brilliant productivity.
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And when I observe why that is, I think a lot of times we try
9:57
stuff and then it doesn't work 100% and then we go back to the
10:00
way we've always done things because you know I told you was
10:02
it wasn't going to work properly but rather than going oh I got
10:05
50%, that's amazing, if you try again we'll get to 75%.
10:09
If you try a third time then we'll get to 100%.
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And we never seem to do that as an industry.
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And again I think that with East West Rail we have some really
10:16
great opportunities to try some stuff out on the railway,
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especially because we're not you know the the Bedford to
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Cambridge bit, we're we're not massively going to impact the
10:25
rest of the network. So we might be able to try some
10:27
things out which might be a little bit riskier, not from a
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safety perspective, but just from a.
10:32
The delivery perspective, that might be a little bit riskier
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than what we might normally do, but it shouldn't be something
10:38
that's gonna have a major risk impact on the network.
10:40
So it's an opportunity to trial some stuff out in a relatively
10:44
controlled environment to see if we can actually do things more
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cost effectively. So you're up for a bit of
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experimentation. Can you be a bit more specific
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in other ideas that you're really excited about trying out?
10:56
One of the big questions I've got for the team is how do we,
10:59
how do we just move less earth because the big costs on a lot
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of these railway jobs are or highways jobs, It's moving dirt
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and that's a huge part of everybody's cost.
11:09
But from a sustainability point of view, from a cost point of
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view, for a time point of view, actually the less we intervene
11:15
in what we're trying to do to get to the outcomes that we
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want, we will be more sustainable because we're doing
11:20
less. That's a good thing.
11:21
We'll be cheaper because we're we're doing less and that's a
11:24
good thing and we'll be quicker because the less we do, the more
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we can get to the to the benefits.
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So, you know, the challenge that I give to the designers is how
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do we, how do we actually, you know, move, move.
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How do we build less staff? We tend as an industry to go,
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what's the biggest thing we can build or what's the best thing
11:41
we can do? And there's a bit of a, for me,
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there's a bit of a mindset to say we've got a climate
11:46
emergency, how do we get those benefits with the least amount
11:50
of impact? Because that's that's a winner
11:52
all round. What about in terms of the way
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the project is managed? Is there anything you're
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experimenting with in terms of the kind of methodology, the
12:00
approach you take, the tech you're using?
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So organizationally we're trying to do we're we're going full on
12:07
matrix which I know is not remotely radical, but we're
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trying to to really have multidisciplinary teams working
12:14
together to come up with what their scope looks like together
12:17
and drive forward the outcomes. It's still a work in progress
12:21
because people want to you know it's not how people are normally
12:24
normally work in the industry. So trying to say no you don't,
12:28
don't don't wait your turn to approve something.
12:30
You need to get in there the outset and design it and make
12:33
sure that the scope is right from everybody from all the all
12:36
the different disciplines perspectives because if you
12:38
don't get the scope right then we're not going to get the
12:40
outcome right. So you need to be in there from
12:41
the beginning. Not sort of sitting at the side
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so we're we're working really hard on that because I really
12:46
believe in that because it's it goes to a diversity point
12:49
actually which is to get to the right outcome and you need to be
12:53
able to listen to a whole array of different voices but we all
12:56
need to recognise that diversity is actually really hard and
12:59
inclusion is really hard because it's easy and I I joke around
13:04
like group think is really easy because we just all trundle
13:06
along and we think it's all fine but actually when you when
13:11
you're you know we we make friends we tend to make friends
13:13
with people who are similar to us because it's easy but when
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we're in work we we have to to get to those good outcomes we
13:19
really have to listen to different voices and they might
13:22
be things you don't want to hear.
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And that's hard. It is like we, you know it's
13:25
it's challenging and I think we we really need to lean into that
13:29
difference because that is how we get to to to the better
13:33
outcomes, faster outcomes. But it takes us longer to get
13:35
there at the beginning. And again you know it's an
13:37
industry like we need to start building stuff straight away.
13:40
It's like actually if you think about the design first they put
13:43
a little bit more time in the at the front end where all the
13:45
costs, you know basically all your cost decisions at the front
13:48
end, but a little bit more time in the front end you should get
13:51
to much better outcomes. The back end.
13:52
It should be cheaper, but you have to sit with a level of
13:55
discomfort for a while that people really don't like.
13:59
Two things sponsor One, have you read Bent Flubber's book, How
14:02
Big Things Get Done? Yes, because there's a lot of
14:04
chiming there in that. And 2nd, how do you set up a
14:09
culture of an organisation or project that is up for dealing
14:14
with the difficulties that come with diversity of opinion and
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not taking the easy Rd of just having everyone say yes and
14:21
agree with you? So we just actually had our our
14:25
sort of half yearly away day last week and we've been, we've
14:28
been talking about this a lot because.
14:30
Most people join these pressurised to be different but
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we we realise that a lot of people's different, we're
14:36
different from each other. So we we we had a whole
14:39
discussion and then I think this is how do you get people to do
14:42
this. We had a big discussion about
14:43
how what what are the different, what do we really want to be
14:45
like? What are the five things we want
14:46
to be different at? Not, not everything.
14:49
We can't be different, we can't do everything.
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So what are the big things that we want to be different about
14:54
And so you know the first couple of things to me are you know,
14:57
put the communities first. This is about providing a
15:00
railway to people. It's not about some shiny
15:02
infrastructure. It's about communities and
15:04
people and back to this building less stuff.
15:07
I think that's really important because again, we're having a
15:09
climate emergency. And the you know if we can think
15:12
about this as more bang for your buck by doing less how how do we
15:16
go into that space. But you know the the team needs
15:19
to buy into these things and that's why we we kind of put it
15:21
out for engagement to everybody is like what what where is it
15:23
that we want to be operating at. Because I think it is really
15:26
important that if we're going to take this position the the the
15:29
company needs to be brought into that people need to participate
15:32
and say you know what what matters to them.
15:35
So they are really, really bought into what the, what those
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things we're going to be doing to be different are you've
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worked for the big kind of rail projects, HS2 and you've also
15:46
worked for Transport for London. What lessons, experiences,
15:50
expertise have you brought from those projects to this project?
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I like to think that I take everything and I put it in my
15:55
backpack and bring it with me somebody somebody used that
15:57
example elsewhere and and I think it's a really good one
15:59
because every experience is a useful experience even if you're
16:02
not going to use it now or even it's not directly applicable,
16:06
it's it's good experience to have.
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And I think from my banking days, what I took with me from
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that is that and I was on the debt side and there's no upside
16:15
in debt. So it's all you know how do you
16:17
manage your downside risk. So I tend to approach everything
16:20
which is. OK, what do I want to achieve?
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And what are my risks of not achieving that?
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And then I try to, I try to create a solution that is
16:28
suitable for the situation. So the more experiences I have,
16:31
the more I can see how different things work in different
16:33
contexts. And then it's how do you apply
16:35
them to the, to the risks that you have, to the, to the
16:37
opportunities that you have. Because everything is different.
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And I think that the what the industry often tends to do is
16:45
sort of apply the rule that they use the last time.
16:47
But it's a different set of circumstances and any project
16:50
that we're working on and there are, you know, there are
16:52
different opportunities, there are different risks, there's,
16:54
you know, different ground conditions, you know there
16:56
there's different stuff. And so we should be taking all
17:00
that good experience and the good experience of our
17:03
colleagues and figuring out what are the things we need.
17:05
How do we, how do we do that, this one this time, because it's
17:09
different from the last one. What do you enjoy most about
17:12
your role? I I love talking to all of our
17:16
stakeholders actually. I find it you know and it's hard
17:19
sometimes when when you when you don't you bring bad news or they
17:22
don't like what you're saying. But I think, but I think that
17:25
it's it's also great to work with people to come up with a
17:27
really good outcome, a shared a really good shared outcome.
17:30
And so I love going to talk to our local authority partners to
17:33
say OK well if we are going to deliver our our bright diversity
17:36
net gain commitments which is 10% more than any impact that we
17:40
had. How can we work with you to get
17:42
to come up with a solution that's actually what you want as
17:45
well. So you know there's no money out
17:47
you know in the in the water world.
17:48
So how do we deliver with our obligations and the budget that
17:52
we have, we're going to have? For this fire diversity net
17:55
gain, how do we deliver a nature reserve for the local authority
17:59
that they want it anyway. So it's sort of those kinds of
18:02
conversations and that whole, you know, let's figure out how
18:06
we can meet our shared objectives together as I find
18:09
that really exciting. And the flipside, what the
18:11
hardest bits about your role? Poor or or or maybe I, I can
18:16
recognise that. What are the biggest challenges
18:18
you face? Because obviously politics for a
18:21
project like this has massive impacts, as you've already
18:24
talked about. It it does.
18:26
I mean I think that that for us though we've got great cross
18:29
party support which is really, really important that obviously
18:32
I think. Any infrastructure project needs
18:34
to have cross party support and it's cross party support across
18:37
the region because most infrastructure projects last
18:41
more than one election cycle. So it is really important that
18:45
and and you know a big a big thing that came out of bent
18:48
lyrics Buck is about you know how do you actually deal with
18:51
the election cycles and try to shorten the time to delivery
18:54
because it it's you know those are the things that that stall
18:58
and and make you know have the cost increases.
19:01
So sort of I'm really keen to make sure we deliver as quickly
19:04
as we possibly can so we can minimise the number of election
19:07
cycles. I I think one of the biggest
19:09
challenges we're going to have though is about money.
19:11
The economy as we all know hasn't been in great shape.
19:15
This is a growth project. This is here to support growth,
19:19
but there's still a lot of other things and a lot of other
19:21
challenging government commitments across the board.
19:24
The government is going to have to face.
19:25
So it's trying to get into that prioritisation because it's a
19:29
long term project. This is, this is not a short
19:31
term solution. So to get to that growth in 10
19:34
years time, we need to put in the investment now to do that.
19:38
And when you've got all these conflicting priorities that are
19:40
really important, it's really important to, you know, get the
19:44
NHS working. It's really important to have
19:46
great schools. You know that there are all
19:47
these other competing, competing issues and so.
19:51
You know we we're going to have to continue to make our case
19:53
even if we do have great cross party support to make sure that
19:57
we get the investment for the project.
19:59
One area I wanted to ask you about was you as the leader,
20:02
have you consciously developed a leadership style?
20:04
Have you reflected on what kind of D you want to be?
20:07
Or have you been influenced by other people you you've admired
20:10
in the past? I think again I've I've been
20:13
influenced by by lots of people for good or bad.
20:15
You know you see you see people's styles and you see what
20:17
you do want to do and you don't want to do.
20:20
There's the someone I worked with who's the chief executive 2
20:23
blondes John Lamont. I loved watching him listen to
20:26
everybody's point of view and then make a make a decision.
20:28
And then if anybody was sort of drifting away from that decision
20:31
he'd call people back into line which is a really good you know
20:34
I think that's a really great model to follow because you do
20:37
have to make to make progress. You have to make decisions.
20:39
But he would always listen to everybody's point of views 1st
20:43
and and you know ideally I think it all circumstances you want
20:46
people to come you come to an agreement.
20:48
You don't want to have to impose a decision upon upon them.
20:50
Good. So you know that was that was an
20:52
objective but he would take the decision rather than letting it
20:55
drift and then but the it's the holding people to account but as
20:58
well rather than than sort of again drifting off into Oh well
21:03
I didn't really like that decision but I think for me it's
21:06
about being who I am as well. What do you mean by that?
21:10
Well, I think that that there is there has been for a very long
21:14
time a perception of what a leader is supposed to be.
21:17
Like which is well I think alpha dog type and being often very
21:22
sort of or aggressive and being super outgoing as well.
21:26
And and I've talked to people who've worked for me and who've
21:29
been you know I've had economists work for me and be
21:31
introverts and going oh I don't know if I can if I can be a
21:34
leader and I said you know you can be you know you don't have
21:37
to be like that. You know that that sort of alpha
21:39
dog type person that you might you might see as the the
21:43
stereotypical leader view you can be.
21:45
You can be yourself and be a leader you don't have.
21:48
You know you have to shout at people you don't have to be that
21:50
kind of person. You you find your own leadership
21:53
style and the thing what I've tried to do is to just make sure
21:57
that I'm being myself and and the government normal human
22:00
being and I try to treat everybody else like normal human
22:02
beings and not be grand. And so I think people are really
22:07
that, you know they do find me approachable and they will tell
22:09
me stuff and that's how we get things done.
22:11
And you know it it it is one of those things that I want
22:14
everyone to be respectful of each other that I work with
22:16
because everybody is a person and deserving of respect
22:20
irrespective of what level they're sitting at and people do
22:23
have experience and views and they should be listened to.
22:27
You know, again, irrespective of hierarchies, because everyone
22:30
has something to bring to to what we're doing.
22:33
You're probably one of very few women at the top of an
22:36
infrastructure project. Just looking back over your
22:39
career, how has being a woman impacted on your career, whether
22:43
it's positive, negative or hasn't made a blind bit of
22:46
difference as far as you're concerned?
22:48
I think it's made a huge amount of difference quite frankly
22:50
because I've always worked in in male dominated industries and I
22:54
think one of the things from the outset is that I knew that I was
22:59
going to be memorable irrespective of what I did.
23:03
So when I was in New York it was just being a young woman.
23:05
When I moved to to London it was being being a woman with this
23:09
accent. And so I didn't want to be
23:12
memorable for the wrong reasons. So I wanted to be, you know, I
23:15
wanted to be the most clever person in the room with the most
23:17
knowledgeable or the most. You know I've read all my
23:19
documents and I did my things and I, you know, because I, I
23:24
whatever I did people were going to Remember Me and and it's it's
23:27
a space that and I'm just very conscious of that.
23:30
I wouldn't call it role modelling now but it was sort it
23:32
sort of it is a you know people are watching what you're doing
23:35
and so I I've always been just conscious of and I haven't
23:40
always succeeded. I will be very honest about that
23:43
and be you know and and but it's it's about almost having not
23:48
even having to represent but but my you know almost being judged
23:51
by not by not at another level and being conscious of of being
23:55
judged at a different level because of because of where you
23:58
are. I think also because I'm so
24:00
noticeable I've been probably bolder than I might have
24:03
otherwise been because my head was already above the parapet.
24:06
So I might as well say what I think.
24:08
That's a great idea. Yeah.
24:09
That's a great point. Yeah, why not?
24:11
Yeah, why not? I mean it's like I'm there so,
24:14
so you're halfway there, so you might as well be all the way
24:16
there. So I think that there's almost
24:17
is almost emboldened me to a certain extent to to to be more
24:22
outspoken than it might have been otherwise.
24:24
If you could look back at 20 year old Beth and give her some
24:29
advice, what would you say to her?
24:32
Well, I would say it's all about the people.
24:33
You know you that I think I was a very academic ambitious person
24:39
and I thought especially my banking days, it was really easy
24:42
to think that it's just about the work and it's just about the
24:45
work and it's it's not not just about the work, it's really
24:48
about how do you have good relationships, how do you use
24:51
those relationships to deliver good things.
24:53
And it it, you know, how we work together as human beings is is a
24:58
really important thing. And so I think I would tell
25:02
myself that don't look at just the work, look at who you're
25:06
working with, how you're impacting them, how they're
25:08
impacting you, what you're doing together, because that's the
25:11
important stuff. Did did the experience of the
25:13
pandemic, The more people interview, the more I realise
25:16
that it did have like a lasting effect on values or what you
25:20
want to do in your career, and you can see there's been
25:22
permanent change. Did the pandemic change anything
25:25
for you? Did you reassess anything I
25:28
think, I think I'm always reassessing it sort of I I
25:30
probably spend over I over assess sometimes but I I think
25:37
it's brought home to me more that that that the importance of
25:40
being with people. I think I'm I'm desperate to to
25:43
be with people and you know live and in person because I think
25:47
that the the the pandemic period we we all figured out how to
25:53
work in a different way which did a job it was transactional
25:57
and technical and it was it had a purpose but I think that face
26:02
to face interaction you know working together you know is
26:07
still really really important and probably I probably think
26:11
that more now that I that we don't have it as much.
26:13
And I think I've realised the importance of the coffee and the
26:17
and and again, it's I I've always been about let's get the
26:19
work done and I can go hang out with my mates.
26:21
So I think that it's that I've realised the importance of of
26:25
when when I was when I was doing my property development, we were
26:27
doing commercial offices and commercial office design was all
26:30
about how do you have serendipitous moments where you
26:32
bump into people and have great ideas that still really matters.
26:36
OK, brilliant. Thank you so much for your time.
26:39
I wish you the best of luck. Thanks very much.
26:47
Thanks again to Beth for joining us, and to you for listening to
26:49
the APM podcast. Don't forget to look out for
26:52
more episodes or to rate and review us wherever you get your
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27:10
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