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Should We Cut the Toxic People Out of Our Lives? || SLP423 · The Speak Life Podcast

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and thank you for downloading episode 423 of the Speak Life podcast.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Thomas Thoroughgood, media producer at Speak Life, and today we are talking about toxicity and this idea of a toxic person based on an article that was in The Atlantic recently.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I hope you find the conversation helpful, and I will catch you at the end.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_03: Well, hello and welcome to the Speakeasy.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_03: My name is Paul Feasy, and I am joined by Glenn Scriveland and Nate Morganlock.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: Hello.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_03: Hello everybody.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: Good to have you with us again.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_03: Good to have you with us.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_03: Today we are talking about the idea of toxic people and what we should be doing with them.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's a phrase that we should cut them off.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_04: That's what we should do.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_04: Excise them.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_04: Like the cancer that they are.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, get rid of cosmic people.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_04: So it's the shortest video we've made.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_04: There it is.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_04: That's it.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_04: Get rid of them.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_04: Goodbye.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_03: See you next week.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_03: Because we're getting rid of you.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_04: Many have now clicked off because Yeah.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_03: So we're going to be thinking a bit about that.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's one of those the idea of something being toxic or toxic people is an idea that's sort of risen to the fore over the last few years, particularly online, gets thrown around a lot.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_03: So we'll be talking about that in a second.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: But we wanted to point you first to our new website, speaklife.org.uk.
• 1:34
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• 1:35
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• 1:39
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• 1:44
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• 1:45
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• 1:49
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• 1:51
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• 1:58
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• 2:00
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• 2:02
  SPEAKER_04: Very well done.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_04: Very well done.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_04: So toxic people, eh?
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_04: Toxic people.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: Toxic people.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_03: Well this this discussion kind of came up because you'd read an article.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_03: I think it was Nate, wasn't it?
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_03: Well, Nate had done this article from Kate.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think we've all now read the article.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Good.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_03: By Caitlin Tiffany.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: She's a writer, uh, staff writer at The Atlantic, um, and she wrote this article called That's It, You're Dead to Me, um, which apparently you can read it online now, but it'll be in the print edition uh of September 2022.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and which she recounts a story of uh her boyfriend and a roommate they had, where uh her boyfriend and the roommate got into a bit of an argument over which is the best Lord album.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I don't know if I'm saying that right.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_03: Is it Lord or Lorde?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_03: Lordie, Lordie.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's Lorde.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know what the E the E is silent, so he didn't really need it to be honest, did she?
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um but they got into this disagreement over it, which you know wasn't really going anywhere, and so at one point she just said, This conversation's dumb, I don't want to talk about it anymore.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_03: At which point the roommate stormed off, and that was the last time he ever spoke to her.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_03: And when the boyfriend pushed him on this a little bit, he basically said, Your girlfriend is toxic.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_04: And what else do you do to toxic people?
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_04: But you cut them off, cut them off, ghost them, yeah, give them the silent treatment, cancel them.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, that kind of spurred us on, and then she writes this kind of article about that.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: She never kind of considered, what if I'm toxic?
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, am I toxic?
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: Am I toxic?
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_03: So all these kind of things.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then she kind of recounts a little bit about sort of this uh the way this has grown up online.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, this idea of you know people who are toxic and what you should do with them, and how there are plenty of people out there dishing out advice on what to do with toxic people, how to cut them off, seven ways to do this, and so on and so forth.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um and none of them are how to redeem that person or help that person.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_04: Well they're irredeemable, then if you're toxic, that's it.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, there's no way back.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_04: There's no part of you that is not detrimental to this system.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_04: No, yeah, no, yeah, yeah.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_03: So when did I mean when did you guys come across the idea of something being toxic?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_04: I think a few a few years ago, this must be more than ten years ago, I did a Christianity explored course with um some people, and there was this one guy who came to Christ, and I was trying to help him with a family relationship, and I was encouraging him to get back in contact with his dad and try and have some kind of relationship with his dad.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_04: And he said, Um, I can't do that because I'd be a hypocrite if I showed any kind of forgiveness or mercy to my father, because I don't feel like doing that, I don't feel like showing mercy or grace, and so it would feel really inauthentic, it would feel he said, hypocritical for him to try and act with kindness to him, um, because everything in his heart and you know did not want to do that.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_04: And and of course, every one of us can sympathize with that feeling, like it would not feel nice, it would not feel like what you want to do in order to show mercy.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_04: But I guess relationships kind of and community depends on showing mercy across divides and showing the a degree of mercy, showing a degree of forgiveness.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_04: Um, trying to get that kind of reconciliation is what what um kind of communities depend on, and yet it would it was the first time I'd really so processed that oh, okay, expressive individualism and just being true to me, you know, you do you, you do you.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_04: Um it that was the first time I'd really considered how detrimental that is to any concept of reconciliation.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_04: Because if you just do you, then of course it's gonna be painful for you to reconcile and be in a relationship with someone who might hurt you, and so you're just gonna do you, they're just gonna do them, and we just atomize ever, ever more.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_04: So, but in terms of the the language of toxic, that that's I mean, apart from the Britney Spears song, I don't know where that's coming from.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's interesting.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: In the article, um, Caitlin Tiffany talks about how when she heard the word that she was toxic, she felt slightly sort of strange about it because it felt like an internet word that isn't really used in real life, and if it is used in real life, it's used ironically.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so she was wondering how does a word like toxic and and that as a label for a whole bunch of people become such a widespread, widespread phenomenon.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you don't I don't think you would have it without the internet.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think it is a it it is an it is a digital word and it's one that that has spread a concept that's spread digitally.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I did a little Google search for the phrase toxic person.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: So it comes up with all sorts of things, but one of the things on Google search is it tells you, you know, people also ask, and then it gives you the questions related to that search term.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: So these are the search terms, which if someone doesn't know what we're talking about by now, uh hopefully by the end of this you would.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, these are the questions that people ask about toxic people.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: What is a toxic person like?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: How do you know someone is toxic?
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: What are some toxic behaviors?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: What causes a toxic person?
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: How do you cut a toxic person?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think that should say how do you cut a toxic person out of your life?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: But there it is.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: Lakewise from top to bottom.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's a really, really good life.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um do toxic people change?
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: What makes a girl toxic?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: What is the most toxic personality trait?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: How do I know if I'm a toxic one?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: What's another word for a toxic person?
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: How do you tell a toxic person goodbye?
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: When should you remove someone from your life?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: What's a toxic text?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: How do you know if a woman is toxic?
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: What are ten signs of a toxic relationship?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: And then finally, why are toxic traits attractive?
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: Oh.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like it like inherent in those questions is a bit of a uh is the sense that a toxic person should we will all have them, they will be around us, and you know, this these are commonly searched terms, so we should expect to find toxic people, and then we should expect to have to cut them out of our lives.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, that final one, why what makes a toxic person attractive?
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: You sort of think, oh my goodness, that's really falling down the rabbit hole on that one, yeah.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but essentially, I think it's it's a it's a concept that's r come to the fore as a result of some of the social media self-help, self-care, relationship advice kind of world, which because it's social media, it's a very low bar for entry.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to have any kind of qualification to share relationship advice online.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so it means that people are talking about their relationship problems, like not just you know, um boyfriend, girlfriend relationships, but but friendships and groups of people are being talked about ad nauseum and by people who generally don't have an awful lot of life experience but have a platform within which they can share what they've learned so far.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_04: And it's always very conspiratorial as well.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_04: If you're sharing anything negative that's happening in your life, you're sharing with friends.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_04: If we're if let's say we're in a Facebook environment, you're sharing with friends, and there's pretty much only one response if you say this jerk was a jerk to me in this kind of way.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_04: The only response you're looking for is oh hun, you know so sorry for you, what a jerk.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, everyone to confirm you in this interaction that you've had.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_04: But of course, after if you share every day, you know, there's the old saying, you know, if you if if you meet a jerk once a month, you've met a jerk.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_04: If you meet a jerk every day, you're the jerk.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_04: Social media kind of encourages us to I met a jerk again.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_04: And then for all your followers or friends to say, oh hun, you know, how how terrible for you.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because on this basis, if there was someone online who is telling you that you might be the toxic person or who's advising you against your own, so who's not affirming you in your your innocence and and rightness, well, you'd cut them out.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: You would stop listening to those people because they are not building you up in your sense of self and and you know, they are attacking you, they are problematic.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: But I I also think with this area, it it seems to be a very an area very, very populated by sort of teens and twenties.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's a bit of a kind of generational thing.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think partly that is because you are becoming aware for the first time perhaps of relational dynamics, and you're becoming aware of like how people are relating to each other.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: Your friendships are forming in a much more uh informal way.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: You are not sort of being taken to various places by parents or other grown-ups, you have an awful lot of freedom and an awful lot of time to kind of build relationships and work on relationships with other people, and then I think the final thing is to do with the digital aspect of it, which is you have metrics for your relationships.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: I know how many times you have liked my posts, I know whether you saw my Instagram story, I know what you put in my DM.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we've got all sorts of like evidence about the relationship, and then with all this evidence, we can then really dive into it.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas people relating to one another in real life, there's less evidence, there's more you know, I haven't got a record of how this came across.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: I can't show someone what you said to me face to face, but I can definitely show someone the text, yeah, yeah.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: And we can all do some detective work to find out what you meant, yeah, and kind of you know come up with all sorts of things.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: So there is an intensity and a and a uh a depth to online relationships, particularly for the teens and twenties, which I think is means that this kind of language around toxicity and how you deal with toxic people.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_04: And I mean, obviously in an online environment, I'm coming into whatever I'm saying in order for you to like me.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_04: Like in the most nakedly self-promoting sense.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_04: I I genuinely want you to like my contribution.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_04: Whereas like in an online contribution, don't forget to like and subscribe to this channel.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, so it's needy, isn't it?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_04: You know, and so we're coming and you know, we've gamified relationships in this way and therefore incentivized actual the neediness of stepping into a room, not in terms of what I can offer, but you know, can I can I get the likes?
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_03: So well that's what we got in that in that story from uh Caitlin Tiffany, because when this roommate had said to her boyfriend, your girlfriend's toxic, she said I mean she literally wrote this.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: This accusation was upsetting because I crave approval at all times from everyone around me, which is just an incredible sentence for anyone to write.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I I can understand it being true, but to just so blatantly come out and say that is just kind of like she'd be putting tongue somewhat in her cheek, or or at least being more confessional about that, perhaps.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, perhaps so, perhaps so.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_03: But I think it it I don't know.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_03: It it strikes me as kind of a genera very much a it it's part of that.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: That strikes me as the TikTok generation, the Instagram generation, you know.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_03: It is all about approval at all times.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_03: And why do we keep posting?
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_03: Why, you know, why do we keep posting this or posting that?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_03: Because we want people to like it.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_03: What's the worst thing someone can do on your post?
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_03: It's not even say it's bad, it's just to not ignore it just to ignore it entirely.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_03: Is this thing on?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_03: You know I put a joke and no one even liked it, you know.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_04: There's a the so the that seeking of approval, I think, is right at the heart of of um this this whole area of what is what is toxic, I I think.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_04: Because you know, in in those questions that you read out, Nate, only once was there a question like, am I the toxic one?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_04: Like it's it's always like the problem is always externalized.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_04: And so you never you never consider am I the toxic one?
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_03: Are we the baddies?
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_04: Are we the baddies?
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_04: You never consider if someone is making a problem for the community there, I again the problem is that person, and it's not like how do I heal that person, how do I help that person, how do I help that person see what they've done?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, are there steps towards redemption and reconciliation?
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um, it's it's not really about that.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_04: It's just, you know, my my role is to feel affirmed and to have self-care.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_04: And to the degree that you, you know, bring discomfort into my life, well, that's not what you're there for.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_04: You're there, you're there to make me feel, you know, loved and approved of.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_04: And and and so, yeah, I think it comes from a real insecurity, doesn't it?
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, a real a real thin skinnedness, which I I picked up that skin language from Alistair Roberts, who who talks about in, you know, I mean, toxic is really like talking about um kind of biological systems.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_04: You know, a toxin comes in from the outside and is bad for your for your health.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_04: And so you need to have a skin, you need to have a membrane that's sort of thick enough to to be able to resist the toxins that are coming from the outside, but you know, not so thick that I don't care about you, and I I completely retreat into this this shell of of myself.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but thin skinnedness is almost like a virtue these days, like because you know, if if we're in a world of competitive victimhood in which I want to claim the victim card, then it's it's I there's a cachet to me saying, but I was hurt, but I was offended.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_04: And so thin skin goes from being like a negative to being almost a virtue.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_04: And therefore, if I'm going into if I'm going into the the the difficult, thorny world of relationships in a thin-skinned way, then I'm gonna get hurt and you're gonna get hurt, and we're just gonna cut each other off.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_04: And again, where's the community gonna go?
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: So we when we talk about so far, everything about it has been quite a negative thing, but we do have categories in what we talk about generally, like even biblically, for there are right times to cut people off, you know, whether it's you know, dust, you know, uh shake the dust off your sandals, you know, have to put people outside of the church and hand over to Satan, all those kinds of things.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_03: So there are there there must be times when in some way doing this is is a right thing.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um so is there anything about this that is kind of a tr something that is true as well?
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I so uh r religious terms you would have excommunication as a as a word that we use for someone being put outside of fellowship with um with the church.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that feels very religious, and yet a lot of the other language that we're talking about feels non-religious, ghosting or cutting people off or um cancelling them, you know, in that sort of sense, or blocking them as a kind of literal thing that you can do online.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so the qu the question is what is the dynamic that we're all the the principles that we're being taught in scripture about who we relate to and how we relate to them.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: And there are issues about applying that in terms of as an individual, in terms of the commitments we have as family groups, in terms of the the church and the way that it organizes itself and and the way that the church discipline operates.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um whereas I I think that largely the online stuff is focused uh only on that individual atomized how are you relating to these other people in your life.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I I think when we're thinking from a Christian point of view, we need to take Jesus, you know, very seriously when he says forgive your brother not seven times but seventy-seven times, and just that sense that as an individual you are you are offering forgiveness and that forgiveness is it has been extended to you.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: The parable of the unmerciful servant who is forgiven his great debts by the king when he pleads for for those debts to be cancelled, and then goes and demands a much smaller debt, though not insignificant, uh that someone else owes him.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that for for the Christian, forgiveness flows downhill.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: We are those who are forgiven, and then that is something that's extended out.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: But now, if you're not a Christian, your starting point is well, forgiveness must be important.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: How do I act in a forgiving way towards other people?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually very difficult to generate that level of grace on a personal basis.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: And you will need some way of of kind of manufacturing that, and that can lead to all sorts of difficulty.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: The Christian does not have that burden upon them because the Christian is is one who operates in relationship to God by grace through the through the gospel and through Christ's work to redeem us.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so on a relational level, individual basis, that's something you extend out to others.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um whereas I think we can think about how it relates to to churches or to larger community groups.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_04: I was reflecting today that over the summer, I on on certain days this summer, I have spent like an hour talking to one person saying, I think you need to get a bit of distance from these family relationships that are not doing you much good, and on the very same day spending a good length of time, hour plus, talking to a different person saying, I think you need to engage with this family issue a little bit more than you're doing, and you're detaching in ways.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_04: And so we like we all we all know that at points it can be very unhealthy for people to relate in a certain kind of a way to a certain kind of a person, and part of that is to do with the thin-skinnedness with which you come to that relationship and the neediness, you know.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_04: I think there is such a thing as codependency in a negative sense, and I think psychologists have have um noticed unhealthy relationships in which people are deriving their sense of self from someone who's basically telling them they're an idiot, and and yet that there can be all sorts of twisted ways in which we attach to that and we kind of need their affirmation, even though it's a negative affirmation, it's it's it's a sick dynamic, it but it happens all the time.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_04: And so there are definitely relationships that at points you need to say say to people, you need a thicker skin from this, you need more distance on this.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_04: I think certainly in terms of um abusive marriage, you don't simply say, Oh, he hit you yesterday, forgive him today, and just bring him back as though nothing has happened.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_04: You never say that.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_04: On the issue of, you know, is a paedophile forgiven?
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_04: Should he take charge of the Sunday school?
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_04: No.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_04: You don't you don't trust people in the same positions?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_04: There are all sorts of environments in which getting distance from certain people is absolutely right, and all the way up to excommunication.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_04: But what's interesting about um when the Bible says to distance yourself from someone, like Titus 3 says, warn a divisive person, warn them again, third strike, have nothing to do with them.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_04: There's a process, yeah, same as in Matthew chapter 18.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_04: There's excommunication, but there's a process, and it's not this ghosting thing.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_04: Because and and even with the harshest language the New Testament uses, 1 Corinthians 5, about handing somebody over to Satan in in the excommunication process, um, that is for their good that they might be brought up short and see themselves for who they are and actually be brought to reconciliation again.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_04: So there's a process which honors the other person, and there's a goal which is actually.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_04: In the end, community wants more through repentance and faith.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_04: And what the problem with the toxic kind of language is, it totally depersonalizes this person who's causing the trouble.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_04: And in you know, this person has caused a massive disruption to the community, but all you can see is your discomfort in dealing with them.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_04: And so you kind of if you just ghost that person, you're sacrificing the community for the sake of your discomfort.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_04: I think the New Testament says to do the very opposite, which is actually confront the person by the grace of Jesus, which will be an uncomfortable thing to do, but you sacrifice your own comfort for the sake of the community, which is which is a very, very different thing to do.
• 22:50
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• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: You can watch it and all of our other conversations at youtube.com forward slash speaklifemedia.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: We're on the other social media platforms, just search for Speak Life UK.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: That will keep you posted.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: And why not join us when we next go live?
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: You can also email comments and questions to info at speaklife.org.uk.
• 23:14
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• 23:20
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• 23:29
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• 23:37
  SPEAKER_03: Let's get back to the podcast.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to come back to the healthy, the word healthy, because obviously that's related with toxic and obviously we people want to be in healthy relationships, but what do we mean when we say healthy relationships?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: How do we know what that looks like?
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think the there's something about um online interaction, which Caitlin Tiffany picks up on in her article, in which we have kind of throwaway people.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: We have people that we can swipe left and swipe right on, and we can have people who we can like in moving a our finger, and that level of relational investment is unhealthy.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: It is not a genuine act of relational kind of um economics in a way.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: Or it's it's so efficient as a system that it could never produce healthy relationships purely on that level that it requires to go deeper and to have meaningful conversation, a meaningful interaction, and I think that is the challenge for um short-term, you know, or short-form content, particularly you know, TikTok, where a lot of this kind of uh relational advice is kind of being spread abroad.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: Is how do you have any healthy relationships with people online?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: And for you know, teens and twenties, particularly, everyone else as well, but how do you encourage and how do we, you know, within the church encourage people to have healthy relationships?
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_04: I wonder about that because I like a year ago there was uh there was uh an email that was sent in to Speak Life that was critical of a series of videos that I made.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_04: And this this sort of person said, Um, I've noticed that you cover issues to do with sexual abuse, and my pastor once had that, and he was constantly preaching about this, and it turns out that he was a sexual abuser in in one way or another.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_04: And so he he sort of finished and and he's just said, I just wonder if you've got an unhealthy interest in this line of topics.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_04: And um and I kind of got this and I was quite affronted by it, and I and I kind of sent the the letter to you and a couple of other friends, um, just on like a WhatsApp group.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_04: And I think I did that probably in the Facebook sense of saying, Oh, get a load of this guy.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_04: He's totally way off base, isn't he?
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_04: And was expecting you guys to kind of come back and confirm that and say, Yeah, he you know, he doesn't know what he's talking about.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_04: You're you're awesome, Glenn.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_04: Never change.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_04: And one of our friends on this group, yeah, he was like, Oh, what's what's what's true about what he said?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_04: Is there any is there anything you need to do some self-examination about?
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_04: Um, which would be really difficult to do in an online space because because if he does that level of pushback, yeah, all my other friends would say, Oh, how dare you, how insensitive.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_04: And yet, what does it what does a true friend, not a Facebook friend, what does a true friend do?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_04: And actually a true friend is not there for your affirmation and approval at all.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_04: You know, your your your friend is there to actually push back against you.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_04: Um and so how do we yeah, how do we reclaim real friendship, which is not just a self-congratulatory, you know, pats on backs all around?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um because Christian Christian community, we we love one another as sinners.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_04: You know, we we don't love one another because we're lovable, you know, and we come together, you know, Dietrich Bonhoeffer in Life Together, he he's like the the the thing that unites Christians is that we are sinners who are forgiven, and that's where the community comes, um, which is just radical because it it means that um when you confront me with my wrongdoing, that's not a community-ending thing.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_04: Where in fact, me doing wrongdoing is not community ending, and then you confronting me about my wrongdoing is not community ending.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_04: Um we actually we we should begin from the from the perspective of I'm a sinner, I've messed up, and and I can't see myself correctly.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_04: And you can see me, and therefore, when you push back against me, well gosh, it's uncomfortable.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_04: It's uncomfortable for you to push back against me, it's uncomfortable for me to hear it.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_04: But you know, our our our fellowship is grounded in the in the forgiveness of sins.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it it's probably probably worth just distinguishing.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um again, as Caitlin Tiffany references a book called Conflict Is Not Abuse or something.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh not read the book, don't know anything about it, but just that title, Conflict Is Not Abuse, it's an interesting title.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_03: Is it conflict or abuse?
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, and and we're in uh what we're you know clearly talking about at this particular point is is that which what could w is properly defined as conflict and interpersonal conflict.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: We're not talking about abuse in the sense that uh clearly there are all sorts of you know um clearly defined uh terms for abuse which uh needs its own unpacking, it needs its own approaches, it needs its own structures.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: We are mainly focusing on these interpersonal relationships which do not have strong and overwhelming power dynamics which are playing on, and however much those play into yeah, because if you are then yeah, remove yourself from harm.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_04: If it's if it's abuse, absolutely remove yourself from harm.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_04: There's and there's no Christian imperative for you to be abused, you know.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_04: But if if it is peer-to-peer and it's conflict and it's just uncomfortable, um then yeah, we're we're we're therefore, we're at that stage in the realm of what actual community looks like.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_04: Because I'm a self-protective hedgehog and you're a self-protective hedgehog, and what happens when we huddle together?
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, we we're prickly and we we hurt each other.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_04: Um but if if the answer to that is you cut each other off, you know, it's it was the it was the perfect Babylon B headline, wasn't it, the other a few years ago now?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_04: God cuts the toxic people out of his life, seven billion dead.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's yeah.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um just to go back to the question of healthy and you know, what other people have different worldviews and and philosophies might have in terms of well, this is what healthy relationship looks like.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: What is there at the core of reality that gives you the mark of authenticity when it comes to healthy relationships?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where the Trinity and understanding God as Father, Son, and Spirit, a loving union of love, and the three persons in one Godhead, that gives you an account for healthy relationship in which there is this interpersonal activity going on, the pericuresis, I believe it's called, the mutual indwelling of the three persons.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: And when you have that as the basis, it gives you an account for why do we have relationships, why do we have people, why are there do we have personhood at all in the universe?
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then what how those personal, interpersonal relationships be carried out?
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we have a blueprint for that, a living blueprint.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: A crew, you know, we've been created in the image of this God, and so we're not kind of trying to make it up and just whatever works for you, you do you.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um we actually have that, and we've seen this God, Father, Son, and Spirit, acting in the history of the world to relate to, as you say, Babylon B article says, the toxic people in his life.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it is that coming is coming in in grace and in compassion and in mercy.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's good.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_04: So we've got things pretty much from from creation and from before creation, we've got community as a value and not as a value to the end of something else.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_04: Because biologically, you might think, well, it's nice to have society because it helps us compete with the tribe down the down the road, yeah, and and therefore community is good to the degree that it contributes to this other thing called survival.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_04: Whereas in the Christian story, no, community comes first and is a good in and of itself, and therefore we treat people in and of themselves, and we treat community as a good in and of itself.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and then if you trace through sort of the four planks of the Bible story, creation, fall, um uh redemption and consummation, so after creation fall, I think this is something that Christians can really contribute to the conversation.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_04: It's called original sin.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_04: Um, or in this context, you could call it universal toxicity, yeah.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_04: And in all those, you know, if you're doing a uh an online kind of quiz to figure out who are the toxic people in your life, like number one, you know, three fingers pointing back at you.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_04: Like I I am I am the most toxic person I know.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_04: And and and wouldn't that be a healthy thing for everyone to go into a relationship knowing?
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_04: You know, the person who needs to change in any relationship is me.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_04: And that whole stuff with you know, Jesus saying, Why do you worry about the speck of dust in your brother's eye?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_04: You got a plank of four by two in your own, and that's again, that's here's a unique contribution that Christianity can bring: universal toxicity, original sin.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_04: I am the big problem in all this when I talk about toxicity, and then you've got redemption, is the third plank, creation for redemption.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_04: And what is it that heals the world?
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_04: Um, it's Christ, the healthy one, sort of stepping across the barrier that we had put into the world, taking all that toxicity on himself and putting it to death so that he could rise up and just offer us relationship again.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, that is what an incredible model for a start of you know how how is relationship gonna happen if someone has made a a wrong move.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_04: Well, it's gonna take someone else to love the sinner and hate the sin and move towards that person in redeeming love, but it's gonna be costly, they're gonna take some of that toxicity onto themselves, and they're gonna and and so you know, cross is kind of unique, and then consummation, the the fourth plank um that Christians bring to this world is we're gonna be every tribe, nation, people, and tongue united across differences, and and that's a gift to the world.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_04: It's not it's not something that I have to achieve.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_04: Um, Christian unity is is uh a gift to be received, not a work that I have to, you know, if I figure out all the methods of dealing with toxic people in my life.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_04: It's it's a gift and it's happening, and I get to participate in it.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_04: So I Christianity has all the resources to to deal with this.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_04: It's it's brilliant.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: But one thing that comes up with there being toxic people, right, is the Google search shows.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: How do I identify these toxic people in the world?
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: They're all around us.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: Every day we're surrounded by toxic people, right?
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: What about what's that?
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: But if we if we're surrounded by toxic people, then um and everyone's toxic, is there like what's what can be done about this other than you know going through clearly the the four planks of the gospel in terms of understanding that's is the world that we live in, whether we like it or not, and that we are the toxic people.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: But how do we be how do you be anti-toxic as a person?
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: What it what are the because if we're saying community is a is a good in and of itself, we have it before the creation of of the cosmos, and therefore that that gives an account for why social media is such a a in lots of ways brilliant things connecting people and there's these ways that we can share our lives with each other and however kind of flat that can become sometimes.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's a good thing for people to connect with each other.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: We're not supposed to be like siloed off that we all live just on our own.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: We're supposed to live in community, we're supposed to have these relationships, but how do we then act in ways which are redemptive and healing and and medicinal, right?
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: How do you be medicinal people rather than being toxic people?
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_03: I mean you talked earlier, Glenn, about you know, it's seen as a virtue now to be the thin-skinned, hard-hearted person.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_03: But actually we ought to be thick skinned and soft-hearted, which is to be counter to what is seen as the thing to be done at the moment around us.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_04: So thick skinned in that you have a robust sense of self.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_04: I don't I don't need you to give me a like.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_04: I don't need you to stroke my back and tell me I'm beautiful.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_04: Um I'll stop doing that now.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, but I do need to have the the big heart.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_04: So so so because what it takes is for me to get my identity not from you, but to know from Christ that I'm loved anyway, so that when I move into a relationship, it's not what I can get from you, it's what I can give, and hopefully I can I I can be that medicinal person.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and like maybe Proverbs 15 springs to mind, verse 1, you know, what is it?
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_04: Um a harsh word stirs up wrath.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_04: Um a harsh word stirs up dissension, but a gentle answer turns away wrath.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_04: And like what are we noticing in relationships?
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_04: It's harsh words that are stirring up dissension, and I, you know, I say harsh, you say harsh, and back it goes, and it becomes ever more toxic.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_04: What would it take to bring healing in that situation?
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, a gentle answer turns away wrath and turns away wrath.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_04: That's a very evocative phrase in the Bible.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_04: It's like what Christ does on the cross, he turns away wrath because what does he do?
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_04: He offers the gentle word to all our toxic dissension, and it cost him, you know, it was very toxic for him to give the gentle answer, you know, with coming with nothing unarmed, and we kind of whack him on the cross, but then you know, he turns the other cheek and answers us with grace.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_04: He tracks down those who killed him and says, peace, you know, and it's this gentle answer that turns away wrath.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_04: And he's done that to you and me, and it feels excruciating for him to do that.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_04: That's that's why you want to cut out toxic people, because to actually engage with someone who's stirred up dissension, it feels it literally feels excruciating.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_04: It's like it's cross-like.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so no wonder people don't want to go there.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_04: But but I I often say this in pastoral ministry, you know, the conservative Christian says it's either the cross or it's hell, right?
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_04: As a kind of an eschatological statement about the gospel, it's either the cross or it's hell.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_04: But that's just true in daily life, you know, because if if hell is just ever fragmenting kind of isolation from one another and from love, if that's what hell is, like the only op the only alternative to cutting cut cutting off from you because you you made me feel bad, and cutting off from you because you made me feel bad, is actually to reconcile with you.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_04: But man, that that's like turning away wrath.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_04: That's like doing what Jesus does on the cross, which is you know, answering kindly to people who want to kill you.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_04: It feels at utterly excruciating.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_04: Well, that's because it's either the it's either hell or the cross.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_04: And so what we're what we're called to to be medicinal people is drawing our strength from the Lord to offer that Christ-like love, and it will feel horrible.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_04: That's why, that's why no one wants to do it.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but the alternative is hell.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_04: Because, you know, God cuts the toxic people out of his life, seven billion dead, right?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_04: It's yeah, it's it's literally it it it is so understandable to want to cut the toxic people out of your life, so understandable.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_04: And there are there are many opportunities and many right ways of actually getting proper healthy distance from people in certain circumstances.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_04: But the alternative to Roth-bearing reconciliation is ever greater isolation.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's hell, you don't want that.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: And and I suppose again part of the challenge, I keep coming back to these teens and twenties, um is that uh overlooking uh things, seeing things in proportion, um, being kind of magnanimous and being able to sort of not be so sort of concerned with um the minutiae that often is turn blown out of proportion on this kind of stuff.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: But to some degree, I do think that comes over time.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: You you you gr you there is a maturity uh hopefully that people gain about interpersonal relationships as they grow older.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: And partly just because you haven't seen this these things before, you're unaware of them, and so they come at you like, oh my goodness, you know.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: Has anyone ever realized that some people can be a bit sort of two-faced?
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: They said one thing to me and then they said one thing behind my back, and that as a kind of you know, understanding of the way sin works out in the world, when that's a f a fresh discovery, that's a big fresh discovery to have, is to go, there can be people, and they oh they were a snake, they sort of did this thing, and over time you you particularly if someone's in in a Christian context in which they're having the they're kind of marinading in the grace of the gospel and the spirit is conforming them into the image of Christ, that they're learning, okay, that yeah, people do that.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: That that's one of the things that happens, and we should expect to see it, and this is how we overcome it, and maybe there are people that are not good for us to hang out with, and so we've discovered that you know it's better to focus on finding rich, kind of enlivening fellowship rather than to be in some relationships which feel like inescapably competitive and and devouring.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that kind of thing where you just you know, as people I do as they grow older, I think you you you become more aware of the options around for coping with relational dysfunction and and therefore you're not as dependent on the kind of two-button strategy, which is all the time or none of the time.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: These are the two things I've got.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: You just yeah, you there is a maturity that could that comes over the years.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's not to say that they can't be mature teenagers and people in their twenties.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: Of course they can, but yeah, not a lot of those people are really sharing stuff online on TikTok, maybe.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, or maybe I'm not.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_04: And they can and you can access that maturity instantly if you're in an intergenerational family of faith, let's call it the church, yeah, in which yeah, you find your identity not in the affirmation of others, but as a sinner loved by Christ.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_04: But also, yeah, really learning from the greyheads around you who've gone round the block a few times.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_04: So, yeah.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_04: Church is a part of this too.
• 43:36
  unknown: Yeah.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's us, the greyheads around you who've gone round the block a few times.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_04: Crown of glory.
• 43:43
  unknown: Great.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thanks, guys.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_03: Some good stuff there, lots of food for thoughts.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, let us know what you think about this whole topic down below in the comments, or you can send us an email um as well, uh info at speaklife.org.uk.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and don't forget to go and check out the website speaklife.org.uk and see what's going on over there.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but until next time, thanks for joining us, and we'll see you soon.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_01: Bye-bye.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_01: Bye-bye.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there we go.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: That is the end of the show.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for listening.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: Again, just a reminder that all our podcast episodes are also available as videos on our YouTube channel.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: So if you if you'd like to sometimes get the visuals that accompany these uh conversations, you can go to youtube.com forward slash speaklifemedia, or just type Speak Life UK into a YouTube search bar and our stuff will come up.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: And we have a ton of other things on our YouTube channel as well, short films, poetry videos, we do quick kind of 10-minute reactions to things in the news as well, um, monologues, all sorts, really.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: So if you haven't uh explored the Speak Life YouTube channel much recently, then do go and check that out.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's all from me.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: We'll be back next week with a brand new episode.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for listening.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: God bless, and see you soon.