Latest / Reboot Republic - Rory Hearne by Tortoise Shack Media / 360. Why are the Government opposing affordable housing?

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360. Why are the Government opposing affordable housing? · Reboot Republic - Rory Hearne by Tortoise Shack Media

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1:08
Welcome to Reboot Republic the podcast that goes
1:11
behind the headlines and looks at the big
1:12
issues in this Republic of inequality. They are
1:15
the podcast of solutions and the podcast of
1:18
hope and I'm your host, Rory Her and
1:20
delighted to be joined on the podcast today
1:22
by Rosie Lynch of workouts union, who has
1:25
been involved for many many years with Nimble
1:27
spaces and,
1:28
work and Cali in relation to developing community
1:32
led affordable housing.
1:35
And Rosy, we... I actually spoke at a
1:37
conference that you organized almost 10 years ago,
1:40
down in Ka on housing.
1:43
Yeah. Well, that's kind of crazy. I just
1:45
think that's that's been so long ago. And
1:48
I think when we all gathered for that
1:51
conference, it was called
1:53
new ways of living together, so we're very
1:55
much looking at kind of I think we
1:57
felt that there would be a paradigm shift
1:59
in how housing was delivered in Ireland.
2:02
There was a phenomenal coming together of
2:05
many do and thinkers
2:07
and and
2:09
kind of plain makers in the area of
2:11
housing Ireland and also internationally.
2:14
And, yeah. I'm I'm... Though I'm still kind
2:16
of reeling and the fact that the the
2:19
the kind of
2:21
potential to kind of shift some of, kind
2:22
of the housing narratives where housing happens that
2:24
are just hasn't happened.
2:26
And I think
2:28
20 24 has been quite a sobering near
2:30
for me in terms of just realizing that,
2:33
you know, what has that is something quite
2:36
different
2:37
obviously, you know, what setting in? You would
2:38
have a much leisure handle on than than
2:41
I do. I suppose I just kind of
2:43
experience it at.
2:44
Are kind of local level and working with
2:46
other potential house groups across the country.
2:50
Yeah. And that's what we're gonna talk about.
2:52
The debt of community led housing and why
2:55
our government decided to kill off
2:59
community led affordable housing
3:01
and why our government decided that it didn't
3:04
want
3:04
affordable housing, genuinely
3:06
affordable housing. So that's what we're gonna talk
3:08
about. And in some ways, because I met
3:11
you
3:12
yesterday at a conference on, would you believe
3:15
my 5 year old daughter has just climbed
3:17
true
3:18
you you saw that Rosie. Climbed over my
3:20
lap through the podcast
3:23
equipment and managed to ent herself in the
3:27
microphone. Aaron say hello to everybody.
3:30
Hi. You're gonna... I'm gonna have to un
3:31
ent your lovely here. Now it's un entangled.
3:34
Great. We could continue.
3:35
And the... Yeah, what we... We... It was
3:38
at the conference yesterday, the well being conference.
3:40
It was actually great. They brought us together
3:42
to discuss
3:45
in the context of, you know, d growth
3:47
and
3:49
you know, alternative growth, paradigm
3:51
and the questioning the whole
3:53
idea of growth from well being and ecological
3:56
perspectives.
3:57
And housing, it was great to put housing
3:59
in central and and to put the community,
4:02
housing in central. But in thinking about it,
4:04
and
4:05
and what I say yesterday and and what
4:08
community housing and looking back over the 10
4:10
years because that was 1 of the questions
4:11
that people ask. Like, why are we... How
4:13
did we get here? And, of course, 1
4:15
of the reasons is that at that point
4:17
when myself, yourself and others were going okay
4:20
here. We should learn from the Celtic Tiger,
4:22
the crash,
4:23
the mortgage arr, the way housing was financial,
4:25
turned into an asset, and let's do it
4:27
differently. Let's deliver housing as home.
4:30
And based on human need and and people's
4:33
need for housing and a human rights. But
4:35
no. They did the complete opposite. They
4:39
decided that they would turn to international investment
4:42
to financial and global
4:44
wealth funds, investor funds to
4:47
by all that property off Nam, the debts
4:50
of Nam,
4:51
m
4:52
and it then turned to them in kind
4:54
of from 20 14 onwards to deliver this
4:57
new supply of rental housing that
4:59
would be where the new generation rent and
5:02
younger generations would live in.
5:04
And, of course, we see from a threshold
5:06
report today, that...
5:08
Okay. Sure. And then,
5:10
that, they
5:12
nobody wants to live in the private rental
5:14
sector because it's una affordable and insecure, but
5:17
the way in which they turned.
5:20
I completely lost an opportunity
5:23
to create an affordable housing system because housing
5:25
was actually is it nominally affordable back then.
5:27
I mean, yeah. We I mean,
5:29
that kind of even with our project here
5:32
in calendar just a shift in house, you
5:34
know, building cost.
5:35
Yeah. Room
5:37
exponentially over a of you know, 8 years
5:39
was kind of eye watering. So, as you
5:41
said, I can kind 15,
5:44
the idea of creating affordable housing was a
5:46
reality. And then O came along with their
5:49
model. Yeah. Well, their first project Embodied non
5:52
affordable and kind of there was something there.
5:55
I think there was real hope that we
5:57
could kind of, you know, create,
6:00
you know, meat people's needs in place that
6:02
they're living and create, you know, kind of
6:05
affordable information at housing things. So I just
6:07
want to say before we move on east,
6:09
you know, kind of said
6:11
housing is expedited ordered. I would maybe say
6:13
it's just going through a
6:17
we
6:18
refocus period. I hope surfing me with the
6:20
kind of general election heels,
6:24
and,
6:25
you know, hopefully, with kind of policy shifts
6:27
that might call
6:29
a a lot of work that the likes
6:31
the self
6:32
architecture the way, their whole fantastic kind of
6:34
road map for that housing could be back
6:36
on the table. So I think her it's
6:38
kinda just in a quite in a
6:42
as a space of kind of a reflection
6:44
at the moment,
6:45
I suppose I'm will talk you through some
6:46
of of the dirt we've be on. But
6:48
I don't think it's dead, but I think
6:49
at the moment, it's not... It certainly isn't
6:52
a priority for the government.
6:55
Well, I'm really glad you corrected me and
6:57
put me in my place on that 1,
6:58
Rosie. Absolutely you're dead right. It is far
7:02
far from dead, and I hope it's certainly
7:05
It... There's no doubt that this... That it
7:07
has got a blow though in terms of
7:09
what was expected and what was Thought would
7:11
happen.
7:14
And even commitments from the recent current minister
7:16
for housing there was expectations and hopes that
7:20
he would, at some level support
7:23
community led affordable housing.
7:25
But what has happened in the last year
7:27
so is a very clear shift away from
7:30
that.
7:31
And we we'll talk about that. But you're
7:33
absolutely right. It is it is not dead
7:35
and and the... As you said, the groups
7:37
like self organized
7:39
architects, common ground and wick yourselves,
7:42
and Oc,
7:44
and others are around the country, clock Jordan,
7:48
there is a network there of people who
7:50
have been working on the idea of community
7:52
led housing
7:53
m
7:54
for many years, and and are still building
7:56
that network and and
7:59
regardless of whether government is willing to support
8:01
them or not are still trying to find
8:03
ways, and you're absolutely right, that there is
8:05
a real opportunity in this
8:07
coming general election, whether
8:09
it's in October or March that there is
8:11
actually to put community led housing and at
8:14
the center of housing policy.
8:16
So maybe we could start and it was
8:17
actually a question that someone asked, of course...
8:19
You know, in our many of our listeners
8:21
we are probably familiar with community led housing,
8:23
but some might be let's explain what is
8:26
community led housing? Yep.
8:29
Yeah. I suppose, I mean, and it's actually...
8:31
We've even shift the language when we had
8:33
a conference in in 20 15, uses this
8:35
word c housing, which is very much a
8:37
European word,
8:39
but,
8:40
subsequently went Elmer omar if you brought in
8:41
the c living. Concept. We have to quickly
8:44
shift. So, you know, that's in the concept
8:47
of sharing resources and downsizing pain the market
8:50
to come.
8:52
So we had to sort of shift language
8:54
in Ireland.
8:55
But the mutual led housing essentially is where
8:58
a community
8:59
of place or interest,
9:01
comes together to really look at their own
9:03
house needs and pools resources. So it's very
9:06
much.
9:07
Kind of based on this concept of kin
9:09
civic partnership Where a lots and lots of
9:11
you guys have to come together. It's not
9:13
just a kind of you know, A b
9:16
model where
9:17
a kind of social developer or,
9:20
a charity built houses for people in need.
9:23
But rather it where the diverse people come
9:26
together and they could be people who might,
9:28
you know on the social housing this, people
9:30
who are, you know, can
9:33
afford to, you know, invest in their own
9:36
home something who might be looking to rent
9:37
that you can get this kind of
9:40
diversification all
9:41
of housing need into kind of 1 project
9:44
in in a certain place. So
9:47
you kinda
9:49
outcomes of community head housing can be quite
9:51
depressed. It could be the
9:53
renovation of a
9:56
some kind of der housing in a street
9:58
and and... We have a wonderful model in
10:00
Dom F in Scotland.
10:02
The stove network,
10:04
we're kind of leaders of
10:07
regeneration of, street and dump freeze now that's
10:10
called the mid steep quarter and
10:12
that town is building kind of housing in
10:14
a their right, but very much through a
10:16
community led approach.
10:18
So we have models and we give bottles
10:20
closest as Scotland, which I think are really
10:22
helpful. You know, we don't have to look
10:23
the biomarker denmark and der making sometimes that
10:26
a be bit scary from an Irish perspective.
10:29
But then,
10:31
I suppose call housing, which is something, you
10:33
know, maybe a little bit more specific is
10:35
where people choose to live
10:38
and in their own homes, maybe with a
10:39
kind of a closer proximity. So they might
10:41
they might have some shared spaces like laundry
10:44
or, kind of, you know, bicycle
10:47
areas. So that you're kind of downsizing some
10:49
of your
10:51
ice spaces in your house that you can
10:53
actually share with your neighbors.
10:54
Yeah.
10:56
And
10:57
very much housing at a neighborhood level. So
10:59
you're bringing your kind of individual housing needs
11:01
into a neighborhood context. And I said was
11:03
that's what
11:04
we've been really focused and interested here in
11:06
Talent and and
11:09
I suppose 1 of the reasons that it
11:11
it can be some success, but on has
11:13
been this,
11:14
the model in other other countries is that
11:16
it sees somebody
11:18
housing the... Their home and their housing needs
11:20
through very fourth sort of through a full
11:22
life cycle.
11:24
So seeing that the hope can sometimes be
11:26
lonely place,
11:27
depends where you are in your life, especially
11:29
if you're
11:30
maybe a single parent even a parent at
11:32
home their their are partners are working that
11:35
can be a lonely space, and and then
11:37
at elder
11:39
once people become older and also people have,
11:42
any kind of court needs, disability, mental health,
11:47
needs that
11:48
home isn't always this cozy obvious space and
11:50
actually having,
11:52
seeing home with it more a neighborhood
11:55
size or a neighborhood exam kind of lens
11:58
can be really interesting in that I saw
12:00
is what I'm particularly interested in. Yeah. And
12:04
it's... You, you know, presented a really good,
12:06
you know, overview and and I think that
12:09
for listeners as well, kind of there's something
12:11
in Ireland, which people are familiar with which
12:13
is kind of the cooperative and cooperative housing
12:16
as well. And, you know, we did have
12:17
a lot of housing delivered through
12:21
kind community
12:23
initiatives, and of course there's the the ancient
12:26
or, you know, Irish approach of the metal
12:28
where people came together to,
12:31
you know, to support each other in terms
12:33
of collecting the harvest and but also in
12:36
terms of, you know, different points of your
12:38
people needing help, put this idea coming together
12:40
in a community
12:42
to support each other to do something and
12:44
that not everything is just left down to
12:45
the individual
12:47
within the new liberal market dream and that
12:49
everybody just buys everything as an individual and
12:52
and they could sell it. But in particular
12:53
around housing, We developed a lot of housing
12:56
cooperative and true communities communities in the 19
12:59
sixties and 19 seventies.
13:01
And even during their Celtic tiger, actually, there
13:03
was a very good
13:04
example of,
13:06
affordable housing model developed and Ring end.
13:10
And what was very interesting about that. Course,
13:12
that was that the height of the Celtic
13:13
Tiger when housing was completely una affordable, and
13:16
the community came together
13:18
and raised funding Got land and built affordable
13:20
housing
13:21
but unfortunately, now that housing is being sold
13:24
privately, and then, you know, that's a a
13:26
question that comes up around this, but it
13:29
doesn't have to be like that.
13:31
But I think what's important around this and
13:33
and Fo is
13:35
significant in a number of areas is that
13:37
the idea is essentially that you're providing
13:40
kind of affordable housing that's... So it's not
13:43
for profit. It's not about a market led
13:46
housing
13:47
model. And and but that it's about meeting
13:49
different needs. So whether that's, you know,
13:52
people with additional needs disability or it's as
13:55
you say life stage or it's this idea
13:58
that that, you know, the market doesn't provide
14:00
housing for people based on need. It provides
14:03
housing on you know, what is gonna make
14:05
profit. And so what it wants to sell
14:07
the semi
14:08
and, you know, at half a million or
14:11
700000
14:12
is what the new developers builders are you
14:13
even more,
14:15
or it's, you know, the investor fund departments,
14:17
you know, that would really, really una affordable
14:19
rents, and this is what the market now
14:20
will offer.
14:21
And it's always been the same. Do what
14:22
I mean, when a market dominated system, we've
14:24
been living under it really since the 19,
14:27
you know, 19 eighties when we really shift
14:30
to a a market led model of housing.
14:32
But the interesting thing for me is how
14:35
there is something different in the in the
14:37
community led piece, which is that
14:39
it is aimed at people that might have
14:41
some resources as well.
14:44
And that
14:45
the idea that people might... Who might not
14:47
qualify for social housing, for example, and they've
14:49
have a higher income than that.
14:52
And it's interesting when we contrast this community
14:54
affordable housing to the type of affordable housing
14:57
that's been developed, like, for example, cost rental,
15:00
which is genuinely, you know, some of it
15:02
now is not actually
15:04
affordable.
15:05
And
15:06
the...
15:08
1 second, Sterling. 1 second. And the...
15:11
You know, this what you're talking about is
15:13
bringing people together to be able to genuinely
15:16
provide community, you know, affordable housing. And so
15:19
it... The question is, you know,
15:22
in terms of this model, it would seem,
15:24
and and the government did say that they
15:26
were going to support it. But what happened
15:28
in Ka?
15:29
Yeah. Well, we've have... I mean, just that
15:32
I just going to loop back to
15:34
what you were kind of talking about sort
15:35
of our history of cooperative in Ireland. Not
15:38
something that,
15:40
you know, I think the likes of So.
15:42
You're kind of leading the kind of face
15:44
or putting housing are really trying to
15:48
focus on is that the idea of cooperative
15:50
are is actually very irish. We have quite
15:52
good models of cooperative,
15:57
yeah. We we've such good models of c
15:59
ops and we're gonna be kind of the
16:01
whole agricultural ops came from a kind of
16:03
an Eye... Had it have... Had an irish
16:05
you know,
16:07
beginning, we have credit unions, the Ga. There's
16:10
so many things that kind of,
16:12
are corporate in.
16:15
Workhorse unions kind of day to day work.
16:17
We work
16:18
to be kind of community c design and
16:19
community engagement
16:21
with lots of different kind of organizations and
16:23
places across Ireland,
16:25
and there is fantastic coming together at the
16:28
moment in Ireland to kind of meet some
16:29
of our, kind of make better republic spaces.
16:33
You know, of course huge investment into libraries,
16:35
fantastic libraries popping up all over the country.
16:39
And I, you know, from out something that
16:41
I suppose
16:43
is curious or maybe it's not curious when
16:45
you see the the whole focus of natural
16:48
maturation of housing and ireland, but that kind
16:50
of
16:51
I suppose the trust
16:53
that communities can work together in the kind
16:55
of common space to create housing just doesn't...
16:58
You know, I'm not seeing a political will.
17:01
You've done just in terms of,
17:03
you know, talking about the Talent project,
17:06
and Nimble mason
17:07
here we've,
17:09
note. 20 15 when you were speaking at
17:11
the conference, we were at the beginning
17:13
of our journey. We were going through a
17:15
process of C design, working with
17:19
have a disability and others who are interested
17:21
in with
17:22
in kind of neighborhoods,
17:24
scale in talent, looking at kind of latency
17:28
important and not the very interesting thing.
17:32
We, you know,
17:34
we got planning for our project in 20
17:36
17. We worked with very interesting Architects
17:39
architecture. We did a lot of
17:41
participatory rep planning
17:43
we were very supportive by any county to
17:45
cancel. We got, you know, they they granted
17:49
planning on 2 quite difficult heritage sites. So
17:52
there was a lot... We felt that there
17:54
was kind of real interest,
17:56
and even more nationally people were sort of
17:59
focusing that there was this
18:02
potential kind of housing that was,
18:05
you know, looking at both kind of housing
18:07
crisis but also share crisis. And that both
18:10
those things have just becoming more and more
18:12
big in
18:13
Yeah.
18:14
15.
18:16
And then
18:18
we were really hit by the cost of
18:21
the potential pilots so that that they be
18:24
moved with the
18:25
kind of exponential growth in building, the houses
18:28
were becoming way on a affordable. You know,
18:30
it like just went out of
18:33
out of it,
18:35
realms of possibility.
18:36
So we kind of
18:38
shell the projects in 20 19,
18:41
1 thing that has been really
18:44
I suppose it has held the project together
18:46
is that she went on a no cool
18:47
and have stopped as white and I think
18:49
he could talk to any. Community led magazine
18:50
group in Ireland.
18:52
Yeah. Have seen the 1 stable thing
18:55
because he has offered,
18:57
I suppose his expertise and oc expertise, they
19:00
r h they can kind of fill
19:03
the kind of social developer side of the
19:06
projects.
19:08
And that has been a huge kind of
19:10
support, but you know, we... The costs
19:12
became on
19:15
una affordable to build. So
19:17
that was, kind of a major stumbling block.
19:20
But then also, I think we became very
19:22
conscious of, you know,
19:25
where we...
19:26
You know, there were air is maybe blind
19:28
spot we needed to look at a bit
19:29
more and and you just watch up the
19:32
ming and affordable housing that now is going
19:34
out on on the mark open market and
19:36
be
19:39
sold off for, you know, far far more
19:42
than
19:44
the kind of cooperative
19:46
prices that would have first been there. So
19:49
we're looking at how to... I suppose how
19:52
to make sure that doesn't happen.
19:53
Yeah. And
19:55
we sort of slowed down the project now
19:57
and we're really looking at new Land trust
20:00
wall.
20:00
And we had set up a community Land
20:02
trust in Talent. That is now taking ownership
20:05
of the 2 sites,
20:06
we're the support of O and,
20:10
and that is again, we're into this new
20:13
space, like community like land trust aren't really
20:16
a thing and an Irish law. We're all.
20:18
Kind of slightly got our mice
20:20
I feel like her he again in another
20:22
space where replying to couldn't approach,
20:25
the correct model, and then I suppose we're
20:27
going to look at the housing again. With...
20:29
You know, we have shell of the project.
20:31
Both of our planning and lapse. And now
20:32
I still we're
20:34
we're a slightly back at the beginning, but
20:36
actually in the long run, it might be
20:38
not the worst thing because you get this
20:40
kind of,
20:42
affordability
20:43
to
20:44
perpetuity, which kind of a community land trust
20:47
and
20:48
ensure,
20:49
community mutual Land trust are
20:51
you know, mainstream
20:53
in the Uk. So there... Again, we have
20:55
models or close fines from un and England
20:58
that we can we can look at. But
21:00
just
21:01
1 thing that's very positive is that,
21:04
Court community lang trust, there were a new
21:06
initiative, and they're working with court... It's a
21:10
partnership between local initiatives,
21:12
And Pork,
21:14
did he cancel their part of Big Eu
21:17
project at the moment.
21:19
To look at,
21:21
usually land trust as model to develop affordable
21:23
housing in the city.
21:25
So that kind of I think maybe where
21:28
all refocus a little bit, and it's actually
21:31
looking at the land and looking at
21:35
how to ensure that there's a kind of
21:37
a legal framework to to make sure that
21:39
any affordable housing is
21:42
affordable and led into perpetuity. So I don't
21:45
know that much of a segue.
21:47
No. No. No. Because I think it's completely,
21:49
you know, in terms of trying to figure
21:50
out practically how, you know, what how we
21:52
can move this forward. I think that you
21:54
know, clearly, as you say that,
21:57
you know, he will cool, he you Brennan.
22:00
Who's been on this podcast, you know a
22:01
great friend of the podcast and and you
22:04
know, we've had him on many times and
22:05
have, know, worked at him and
22:08
he,
22:10
you know, has outlined and has been in
22:11
the media quite recently,
22:14
talking about the real challenge that they face,
22:16
that the model faces is now both in
22:18
terms of
22:20
the costs of delivery that are escalated so
22:23
high,
22:24
but also then the issue of the lack
22:27
of finance and the lack of finance to
22:29
start
22:30
projects, and he was very critical
22:32
of the fact that
22:34
the government has given Bar,
22:37
the big an investor, Irish investor fund well.
22:40
It's it's a, whatever. It's a it's a
22:42
real estate company based in Ireland, but probably,
22:45
we don't know exactly where the funding is
22:46
coming from,
22:48
but it is a real estate fund here
22:49
that's developing the O Gardens
22:52
development, that's the government made the deal there
22:54
with Dom City Council made the deal with.
22:57
It's a private real estate company that they're
22:59
paying them
23:01
part by part in the project, which enables
23:03
them to continue to finance it. But he
23:06
said they wouldn't do that for a cool,
23:08
and that's, you know, in part why I
23:10
was saying you know, that the debt of
23:12
affordable
23:13
community led affordable housing.
23:15
And there's definitely appears to me anyway, an
23:18
attempt
23:19
to
23:20
kill it off or certainly, there's no real
23:23
will.
23:24
No real political will to try and get
23:26
behind it and support in, facing these challenges
23:30
around finance, like, There's no lack of finance
23:33
available right now. And for development,
23:37
we have an 8000000000 surplus. We're setting up
23:39
various new funds
23:41
Why won't the government fund community led affordable
23:44
housing?
23:45
Yeah. It's it's it's it's kind of it's
23:47
it is
23:48
remarkable and and...
23:50
And quite challenging to be honest.
23:53
I think from my perspective, and I suppose
23:55
we're not, know, Cool on our boarding houses.
23:58
They're much more in the game of that
24:00
know, that whole kind of the financing space.
24:02
Yeah. Our perspective where I see there's a
24:05
real lack of kind of
24:07
imagination, you is that you are bringing,
24:10
maybe what the government wants or
24:12
or what kind of housing policy... At the
24:14
moment wants to keep kind of distinct.
24:16
They have some... They have their categories
24:19
because rental with, you know,
24:22
planning, you know, the developer lead, the social
24:25
housing and the right beef, are leading, and
24:28
we're talking about sort of pre housing rings
24:31
a lot of just needs together.
24:33
And
24:36
I think that that complexity
24:38
is
24:39
something that maybe has have kind of led
24:42
to just this... This is too this is
24:44
too complex.
24:45
Also too niche. I think it was said
24:47
yesterday at the conference or this is the
24:49
very niche idea.
24:51
I don't think community head housing as niche.
24:54
I think it's
24:55
it's, you know,
24:57
across ireland and we have, you know, der
24:59
tang centers.
25:01
We I think there would be a real
25:03
interest in
25:05
a creation led approach to, kind
25:07
villages and talents meeting their closing. So I
25:09
don't I don't think it's a niche idea.
25:13
But I think that, you know, seeing how
25:16
kind of people can bring their own private
25:19
home needs into kind of a
25:23
public
25:25
conversation. I think that's the tricky thing. So
25:26
I think there might be a fear that
25:28
you're... That
25:30
people's own private interest are kind of maybe
25:33
getting public funding. And if that's very ironic
25:36
when all that the the big developers are
25:38
getting
25:39
wanted so happy you know it. It doesn't...
25:41
It it doesn't make sense. I think, you,
25:43
in the Uk, you have kind of a
25:45
1 stop shop for community that housing. Wanted
25:47
Yeah. And you have... You know, we need
25:50
housing to have its own kind of policy.
25:53
We need community land trust to have it
25:55
their own policy, like that is a,
25:59
you know, kind of
26:01
the government has to, you know, really could've
26:03
have worked towards that I suppose I would
26:05
have felt that with the greens in the
26:07
would have happened. But I think their focus
26:09
has been very much on link nature and
26:11
climate action policy and getting those across the
26:14
line.
26:14
I think housing has been in the left
26:17
at kind of
26:19
domain and, you know, it hasn't
26:21
unfortunately commuter led house and hasn't... Hasn't been
26:24
given the the space and resources because that's
26:27
what it is.
26:28
It needs a few people to
26:30
put together those kind of, policies and frameworks
26:34
and out,
26:35
land and ownership and affordability into perpetuity and
26:38
all those things that I think are
26:42
they are complex,
26:44
but they're not actually different, you know, because
26:46
we... They're.
26:49
Absolutely not. They're not. And and the... You
26:51
know, what it comes to mind is,
26:53
you know, the question is why? Why?
26:56
Why is it, you know, is you say
26:58
it's not complex. You could work this out
26:59
through legislation through
27:01
and, you know, financing streams. Like, there's no
27:04
reason why you can't have
27:06
cost rental housing, you know, local authority led
27:08
affordable housing and community affordable housing. Like, it's
27:12
not... They don't have to be
27:15
somehow seen as, you know, oh, week... We're...
27:17
Because it because I think that's what happened
27:19
as well,
27:20
that,
27:21
the... Once the new
27:24
affordable housing initiative, the affordable purchase scheme was
27:27
developed true local authorities.
27:30
That then that signaled
27:32
the end of the oc model, and thus
27:35
there was no more funding going to be
27:36
given to,
27:38
a and to deliver affordable housing the way
27:41
it had been doing it. And and I
27:43
think maybe looking at that now that that
27:45
was a, you know, we should have probably
27:47
reacted stronger to that in and looking at
27:51
that now because it seems that when you
27:54
look at it, what happened is once they
27:55
brought that initiative in, that essentially, they were
27:57
killing it off in terms of providing a
28:00
funding stream,
28:01
and similar with the cost rental.
28:03
And, of course, the the the big question
28:05
is is it because?
28:07
This community led affordable housing model, an a
28:11
model was the providing genuinely affordable housing, and
28:15
and was challenging the
28:17
way in which
28:18
the
28:19
affordable housing deliver true cost rental through the
28:21
land development agency, m or true local authorities
28:25
is essentially just buying it off developers and
28:27
investor funds.
28:28
At market price with market profit. And if
28:31
you have this other model there that actually
28:33
can do it for a hundred and 50000
28:35
cheaper
28:36
Well, then you have a bit of people
28:37
and say, why are you not doing the
28:38
community 1? Why are you doing this market
28:40
led
28:41
affordable housing.
28:43
And and I think that could be part
28:44
of it as well. I think so. And
28:46
I think... Yeah. I I mean,
28:49
you know, it's all very anecdotal what uno
28:51
know, I can definitely feel like, across the
28:54
country that there's been some,
28:56
you know,
28:58
very good projects that have been trying to
29:00
get over the line. I mean, you know,
29:02
we were told in Talent in 20 19
29:04
that that kind of social housing
29:07
cost for an space were too high and
29:09
it was, you know, we need to go
29:11
back to the the drawing board mean But
29:13
now, and I thought... I took that at
29:15
the radio. I said, okay, the department saying,
29:17
you know, it's too expensive and
29:20
we also would have had to, you know,
29:22
the affordable housing
29:24
would have also, you know, been under those
29:26
kind of saying financial constraints. So we kind
29:28
of took it at Faith Value. But now
29:30
as said that the government is stepping into,
29:34
subsidized
29:37
private developers at quite high rates. So yes.
29:40
There's there's there was a dis... I feel
29:42
there are have been some decisions made.
29:45
I don't know quite where in hail but
29:48
are that have jeff that we put cold
29:50
water on, at housing. I suppose them.
29:53
We've had
29:56
really
29:57
could of a lot of kind of conversations
29:59
also with
30:00
peers down and ar more in county Water
30:03
that have been
30:05
putting huge amount of work to do affordable
30:07
housing for people from the village.
30:10
So so the art more would be, like,
30:12
a lot of east hands in Ireland where
30:15
people people who
30:16
go to school there, grow... Are just can't
30:18
fortunate live there. Yeah.
30:20
And just over the last year, their project
30:23
got planning,
30:24
what now does have taken over their local
30:27
authority so much. You know, it's it's almost...
30:30
I feel like the look cross to be
30:31
an a journalist approach to commercial housing,
30:34
and they like, you know, you're not gonna
30:36
manage it. You know, you're... You don't have
30:38
the
30:40
kind of expertise, and we're we're the experts
30:42
are social and affordable housing, and we're gonna
30:45
take it on.
30:46
So that's... You know, that was quite a
30:48
surprise because, you know, that got through that
30:51
lots to planning and got through where...
30:55
Got to the state had through a mutual
30:57
led approach and not in
30:59
local authority. And I think that's what's really
31:01
important is the Civic partnership, element of community
31:05
housing. Yeah. All going to be in partnership
31:08
local authority. It's not some kind of, you
31:10
know,
31:12
way out there la know, and it it
31:15
has that happen,
31:17
very much with in partnership with a easing
31:20
authority in. Yeah. And meeting kind of, you
31:22
know,
31:25
policy
31:26
requirements and all those things. But that was
31:28
a bit of a shock.
31:29
If anyone's interested, it's that could had more
31:32
project.
31:33
Being written about,
31:35
in the paper,
31:36
And
31:38
so, yeah. That's quite a... That was that
31:40
was quite a
31:42
year kind of message
31:43
that.
31:44
You know,
31:45
affordable housing was very auction gonna be, led
31:48
by local authority.
31:50
I still was in pal because
31:53
we share or make
31:55
very much put the project on kind of
31:56
hold of 20 19. It's hard to know
32:00
how the low growth margin would would view
32:02
us. But certainly, you know, we've... We can
32:05
feel that if it was taken over by
32:07
maybe a
32:10
regular,
32:11
the social high be the project would fly.
32:14
But with the kind of
32:17
very much, we are saying that we wanted
32:18
to be an inclusive neighborhood an inclusive neighborhood
32:20
it is different types of people living together
32:23
alongside each other. Not in kind of meat
32:25
separated boxes,
32:27
that is gonna be a challenge.
32:30
Yeah.
32:31
And Yeah. It's really interesting. I... I think,
32:33
like it is a third
32:35
kind of model or, you know, even for
32:37
model of delivering housing and
32:40
To me, it just seems such a good
32:42
idea and particularly in terms of as you
32:43
say, and I know you wanted to talk
32:45
about that like that as you say the
32:46
care and housing crisis and how they intersect.
32:51
Yeah.
32:52
So that,
32:54
that's very much
32:55
something that's kind of close to my heart
32:57
and I think
33:00
I think we have to,
33:02
you know, we have to address,
33:04
you know, care within within housing kind of
33:07
context until now, you know, we've had... Got
33:09
this,
33:11
you know, big move of of Dean's
33:14
socialization for people of with the disability, which
33:17
it's absolutely fantastic.
33:19
But there is, you know, such a shift,
33:21
you know, there's kind of, again, you've got
33:23
these 2 things a bit like social housing
33:25
and and drive housing. You've got nothing in
33:27
the middle. So you have people living in
33:30
care,
33:31
very kind of a regulated states, especially, you
33:34
know,
33:35
Covid I suppose ramped that regulation point.
33:38
You know, quite a lot. So even kind
33:40
of getting back when you normal if you're
33:42
living in
33:43
residential care is is much more difficult than
33:46
people who are living in their own homes
33:48
and have a bit more in autonomy.
33:51
And then you have on the other side
33:54
kind of independent living.
33:57
And,
33:58
you know, sometimes those kind of choice
34:01
places that that people are living are just
34:03
not are aren't fungi. And we've got an
34:05
example.
34:06
Close to me. I live in just outside
34:08
Ka the rural spot that the local authority
34:11
to disability provider,
34:14
built a very reasonable kind of renovate the
34:17
house over the last few years for
34:21
people with the disability to live in and
34:23
There's wheelchair, to wheelchair a user's, maybe in
34:26
a house that is on a very
34:28
busy main road,
34:30
and in order to eat their house, they
34:31
need lead staff to come with a
34:35
I mean, boston, you can just see that
34:37
it's it's not
34:38
thinking with it in a neighborhood context. It's
34:41
just
34:42
seeing housing isolated by itself.
34:46
So I suppose that what
34:48
for me the kind of coal idea you
34:50
could get housing and action thinking about
34:53
our support needs our
34:56
potential to be mutually supportive as well, and...
34:59
I mean, on a
35:02
Bigger level I'm really interested in is also
35:04
kind of shaking off some of this kind
35:05
of care... Who's who is the care and
35:07
who is cared for and within that housing
35:10
you could you could
35:12
make that a lot more neighbor complex. And,
35:16
we're all going to be carers and character
35:18
in our life.
35:19
And
35:21
Yeah. I think
35:23
I think in order, I think that the
35:25
terror crisis on the housing crisis
35:28
are need to be seen together because
35:31
in the same way of,
35:33
housing is becoming una affordable and people are
35:36
living in substandard
35:39
situations and totally appropriate situations.
35:42
I think that there is a care that
35:44
there's a care crisis on at the moment
35:45
as well that
35:47
people's care needs are just not being met
35:49
and the way they should be.
35:51
Yeah. Absolutely. I think as well, of course,
35:53
the other
35:55
you know, sight to that is is is,
35:57
you know,
35:59
the... It's the cost of housing, the cost
36:01
of care
36:02
and, you know, being able to live
36:04
afford in an affordable home that is designed
36:08
around care needs
36:09
and can help both that financial cost And
36:12
then as you say, the real quality of
36:14
life and the ability
36:16
and of people to live independently. But then
36:18
the wider as you say care needs we
36:20
all of care needs at different stages in
36:22
our lives. And,
36:24
I think it is... It does really need
36:25
to go together. And I think again, it's
36:27
that
36:28
the problem with just viewing housing as units,
36:31
and, you know are we supplying a certain
36:33
amount of units. But if those
36:35
housing units aren't the right type, then that
36:37
is hugely problematic and leaves all these other
36:41
social crisis either worsened or, you know, not
36:44
not addressed.
36:46
And I think again, it does come back
36:48
to that importance of that, you know, community
36:50
as you say inclusive approach to housing and
36:52
and
36:53
It is I think a real challenge both
36:55
to the state and how it operates as
36:57
a bureaucracy,
36:58
and and it's a little bit like the
37:00
computer says no. We don't quite computer with
37:02
this model of delivering. Therefore, we're not gonna
37:05
support it. And also the other hand, we
37:07
have to make sure the market keeps making
37:08
its money, and we don't want models that
37:10
might challenge that either.
37:12
And
37:13
I do think though that there... It's a
37:15
real... It's really disappointing to see all the
37:17
the the huge work that's gone in,
37:19
not being supported the way it should be
37:21
and, you know, I'm glad to to hear
37:23
what you said at the start that it's
37:24
not that the model is is being killed
37:27
off completely, but actually, it's going to,
37:30
it as you say,
37:32
evolve and hopefully, it's to say with a
37:34
general election to new new initiatives. In terms
37:37
of people want to find out about it,
37:39
and get involved and see you how can
37:40
they support it or maybe develop their own?
37:43
Community led housing and what can be done,
37:44
how where can people find stuff out?
37:47
You was m. So South organized
37:50
architecture. Their website is S0A,
37:52
Dash.
37:54
They have
37:55
bear the real kind of
37:57
putting the work into kind of
38:00
you know, really thinking what the model can
38:02
be like a policy for milan for finance,
38:07
perspectives. So they're a great place to start.
38:09
They also have links to some
38:12
community commercial lake housing groups in Ireland.
38:16
Obviously, clark Jordan Eco village is a great
38:18
place of visit to see what kind of
38:20
housing can look like in flu like Ireland.
38:25
Clock Jordan is primarily, I think it's kind
38:27
of a hundred percent, like, owner med.
38:29
And,
38:31
Davey Phillips who kind of wanted of the,
38:33
you know, movers and shaker the behind up,
38:35
Jordan, and he's really looking now at bringing
38:37
kind c
38:39
into cock Jordan and, kind of more idea
38:41
of social inclusion.
38:42
So, you know,
38:45
Jordan is is a a great model to
38:47
visit. And in terms of affordable housing,
38:50
picture, or,
38:54
c housing alliance.
38:55
They have a great web website some
38:58
videos as well. So they're they're very much
39:00
working in before housing piece. And then for
39:02
our project,
39:04
here in Ka,
39:06
nimble space of inclusive neighborhood, which is, you
39:08
know, kind of more looking at.
39:10
Care and housing and and support.
39:14
So work union, which is the organization I
39:16
work with and ford's caution nimble spaces. If
39:20
you probably Google nimble spaces you'll also find.
39:22
There's a lot of videos though anyone interested
39:24
in, with in house and you've some,
39:28
fantastic mediums that kinda go through our whole
39:30
kind of c design and his phase planning
39:32
process.
39:33
And then I spoke was the group that's
39:35
are really maybe have the most,
39:39
you know, focus in terms of really hoping
39:41
to, you know, really,
39:44
kind of
39:46
suppose paving the way around creating new neighbors
39:48
it come around and bree, and they're they
39:51
website you know, common grand, your science,
39:54
a lot of your information with them they'll
39:55
be working with the art architect dom even
39:58
and again, have a lot of resources on
39:59
their website.
40:01
Brilliant brilliant upgrades there's lots there and hopefully
40:04
more initiatives can start
40:06
and be worked on, and it was great
40:09
to greater a chat again, Rosie, you have
40:10
say delighted to it.
40:13
No. It's great. I'm delighted to
40:16
I suppose it
40:17
To know that you've been taken the the
40:20
time to today to have this conversation with
40:21
really led housing because I think all of
40:24
us who in working
40:26
kind of
40:28
year on year out you kind of develop
40:29
this model are, you know, this maybe a
40:32
slight sense but this being hardened at the
40:34
moment, but I think that with, you know,
40:36
just to refocus on it and actually also
40:39
really see that it isn't this niche model,
40:41
it's something that can
40:43
can, kind of support
40:45
people through their cycle,
40:47
support families,
40:49
and also be, I think a real
40:52
something very positive for
40:55
for towns of villages images that are are
40:56
facing
40:59
der need
41:00
need renewal. And I also think that in
41:02
Rn and, we have so many tools for
41:04
coming together as a community to meet our
41:06
needs, and it'll be fantastic if housing was
41:08
1 of them.
41:10
Absolutely agree completely will listen Rosie. And I
41:13
think that you will develop that project without
41:16
doubt. And and many more and we need
41:19
this community housing, and I look forward in
41:21
coming years that we actually see them more
41:23
and more delivered.
41:25
So listen, thanks again for coming on reboot
41:27
today. Yeah. Thank you so much, Rory.
41:29
And,
41:31
listen, thank you so much everyone. For listening
41:34
for lovely messages. People are sending in and,
41:37
keep spreading around the podcast sharing them around
41:40
really makes a difference that we appreciate all
41:42
the feedback you give. And if you can,
41:44
and please become a patron of
41:46
reboot Republic and through the Tortoise Shack media,
41:49
and
41:50
the... It is produced by Tony Groves of
41:52
Tortoise shack media if you can. I know
41:54
whatever you can. Each month, whatever, little bit
41:57
you can give, it helps keep the lights
41:59
on, keep the podcast being produced. It does
42:01
cost to host them and in terms of
42:04
all the websites and Tony's time and all
42:07
that work put in. So please, if you
42:08
can't consider becoming a patron. And thank you
42:10
so much everyone for listening. And we will
42:13
talk to you all very very soon.
42:18
And