Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Guest Host: Cornelia Elbrecht interviews Sabâ Başoğlu on Clay Field Therapy

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Guest Host: Cornelia Elbrecht interviews Sabâ Başoğlu on Clay Field Therapy · The Trauma Therapist

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Folks, Welcome back to another edition of the Guest host series.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: I'm super excited about this series. I'm very excited about
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  Speaker 1: today's guest hosts. Cornelia Albrecht. Love this woman, She's amazing.
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  Speaker 1: Cornelia is an author, leader in groundbreaking art therapy techniques
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  Speaker 1: with a particular focus on healing trauma, and art therapist
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  Speaker 1: with over forty years experience. She is a renowned author, educator,
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  Speaker 1: and the founder and director of the Institute for Centurymotor
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  Speaker 1: Art Therapy. Cornelius study at the School for Initiatic Therapy
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  Speaker 1: in the Black Forest, Germany and holds degrees in Fine
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  Speaker 1: Arts and Arts Education. Today, she's going to be interviewing
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  Speaker 1: Doctor Saba Bajolu. Saba is a clinical psychologist and centroy
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  Speaker 1: motor art therapists specializing in clayfield therapy and guided drawing.
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  Speaker 1: Saba is an associate professor at Galata University in Istanbul
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  Speaker 1: and works predominantly with adults and teenagers, integrating centromotor art
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  Speaker 1: therapy with phenomenological psychology, psychodynamic existential approaches and body formed
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  Speaker 1: trauma therapy.
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  Speaker 2: Enjoy Welcome, Saba Bosolo. You are professor for Psychology at
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  Speaker 2: Galaty University.
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  Speaker 3: In is Dunboil.
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  Speaker 2: You have a master's in forensic psychology and a PhD
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  Speaker 2: in clinical psychology, and you wrote your thesis on Clayfield therapy,
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  Speaker 2: which is something I have researched for the past fifty
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  Speaker 2: years and I'm very passionate about as an touch therapy
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  Speaker 2: that involves a box filled with about ten kilos of
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  Speaker 2: very smooth clay and adult climb work with their eyes closed.
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  Speaker 2: And it is not about creating and making something, but
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  Speaker 2: about the relationship with yourself and the material and the
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  Speaker 2: motor impulses projected into the field and the sensory feedback
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  Speaker 2: that you receive from this experience. So you researched this
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  Speaker 2: with highly traumatized clients and came to quite surprising tone
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  Speaker 2: that you created out of your research that you called
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  Speaker 2: embodied reflection. Tell us something about that.
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  Speaker 3: Okay, thank you.
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  Speaker 4: So, yeah, Invoy's reflection as a product of a research
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  Speaker 4: and this research was in depth, process oriented and client
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  Speaker 4: focus research. So we had these two interviews after first
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  Speaker 4: was after the first Clayfield session and after twelve Clayfield sessions.
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  Speaker 3: So twelve sessions.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, they had, Yeah, they have twelve sessions. So yeah,
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  Speaker 4: like in real life psychotherapy. All participants had different traumatic
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  Speaker 4: experiences and different bodily symptoms and yeah, and and unique
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  Speaker 4: Clayfield experiences, but.
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  Speaker 2: That all of them had unidentifiable medical issues.
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  Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, thank you for reminding me of that. We
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  Speaker 4: work with the individuals with medically unexplained symptoms.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: And they were talking about their own process. They were
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  Speaker 4: described their own process, and they were reflecting on how
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  Speaker 4: and why maybe the transformation of cured and clay Field therapy.
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  Speaker 4: And they were comparing their Clayfield experience with their previous
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  Speaker 4: talk or body informed therapy experiences. So, although they are
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  Speaker 4: unique individuals, a common path emerged from their answers that
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  Speaker 4: we call embodied reflection. So embodied reflection contains three elements
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  Speaker 4: and first this body, yeah, it's sensation and perception. And
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  Speaker 4: second relationality my relationship myself and with the world and
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  Speaker 4: meaning making process. So and I know that embodiment is
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  Speaker 4: well known concept today thanks to new science and new
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  Speaker 4: approaches to trauma and body informed therapies, because we are
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  Speaker 4: engaging in a relationship.
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  Speaker 3: With the world first with our body.
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  Speaker 4: And we know that now trauma is primarily is a
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  Speaker 4: bodily experience.
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  Speaker 3: And so from.
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  Speaker 2: My experience at the clay Field is it is haptic experience,
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  Speaker 2: so a touch experience, and so much trauma is also
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  Speaker 2: communicated or learned or experience through touch.
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  Speaker 3: Like love or or violence. And you know, it's that.
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  Speaker 4: Those this relationship with ourselves and with the world, and
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  Speaker 4: it contaigns inevitably relationality, as you always say that you
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  Speaker 4: cannot touch without being touched.
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  Speaker 3: So yeah, and clay Field therapy of course.
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  Speaker 4: Shares the similar insights with other body focused therapies, but
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  Speaker 4: it differs from them in terms of relationality.
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  Speaker 3: So I can give an example.
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  Speaker 4: Like imagine that you sit on meditation and observe your body,
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  Speaker 4: the sensations or what's happening in the room, or you
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  Speaker 4: have maybe this knowledge of body informed or trauma informed
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  Speaker 4: body the practices and you can change the moments, but
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  Speaker 4: you're alone there and you're not actually engaging in a relationship.
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  Speaker 4: But in clay Field therapy, we're not just working with body,
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  Speaker 4: with working with as body of the beings in relationships.
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  Speaker 4: So it's of course all therapies are built on relationship,
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  Speaker 4: but the difference is such and I remember articipants said that,
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  Speaker 4: and in talk therapies they can change the subjects, or
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  Speaker 4: they could even choose not to look.
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  Speaker 3: At therapist's eyes.
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  Speaker 4: But they said that in clay Field is always there,
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  Speaker 4: so concrete, and there is always a collision with themselves
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  Speaker 4: and relationships.
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  Speaker 2: And kilos of clent offer resistant. Yes, it's not easy
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  Speaker 2: to move. You have to actually engage your body in
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  Speaker 2: moving it.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's kind of a hard work. You're you're not
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  Speaker 4: just talking and sitting somewhere. You're living in experience and
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  Speaker 4: and and this is really important because you know, we're
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  Speaker 4: living in a relational world and it's just all during
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  Speaker 4: the day we're engaging different relationships. So we're living this
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  Speaker 4: relationship with our bodies or our body is constantly changing.
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  Speaker 4: And especially in trauma, we know that we can repeat
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  Speaker 4: our traumatic relationships even in our adulthood. We can repeat
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  Speaker 4: this violent, neglectful, abusive relationships, or we can avoid relationships
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  Speaker 4: although we want to engage and we need some and
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  Speaker 4: also our relationship with ourselves. And we're describing ourselves like
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  Speaker 4: you know, some with some labels and using some psychological terms.
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  Speaker 4: Oh I have attachment problem or yeah, I don't I
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  Speaker 4: feel this insecurity in myself time, I have no control
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  Speaker 4: about my life so so.
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  Speaker 2: In clayfield, they for example, it looks like that someone
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  Speaker 2: even though they want to touch it, Yeah, they can't
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  Speaker 2: really touch it, or they just touch it with their fingertips.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, the material.
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  Speaker 2: Even though there's so much there, they can't connect with it.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, And I can give an example, it will be
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  Speaker 4: maybe easier. So I remember this session that my client
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  Speaker 4: was just emptying the box and just yeah and putting
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  Speaker 4: this clay outside, and she put her hands in the box.
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  Speaker 4: And when I asked her how she was feeling, and
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  Speaker 4: she said, okay, it's the thing that we're all from me.
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  Speaker 4: We're saying okay for the things that we are not
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  Speaker 4: actually okay, okay. So and but her face was was
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  Speaker 4: so tense, her body was collapsed, and she couldn't breathe.
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  Speaker 4: And after a while she took the clay inside and
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  Speaker 4: covered her hand, and all of your face was relaxed
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  Speaker 4: and she could breathe and she was laughing. So in
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  Speaker 4: first was her traumatic story, and she didn't know about it,
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  Speaker 4: She wasn't aware about it, and she was repeating every
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  Speaker 4: day in her life. She was she had this place
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  Speaker 4: and protected place, but she was paying it with the
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  Speaker 4: loneliness and this she was alone in this place and
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  Speaker 4: the box.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, and that was the empty box.
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  Speaker 4: And yeah, the second was again her own place and
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  Speaker 4: protect She was protected, but she was cherished, she was
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  Speaker 4: she was lowed, she was held and contained. And by
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  Speaker 4: reflecting to this two different relationships and the experience of
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  Speaker 4: her body, two different experiences of her body. First she
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  Speaker 4: could realize what's happening, what was happening with her, and
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  Speaker 4: then the new experience that she keeps change about her life,
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  Speaker 4: a new perspective about her life. So she could do that, Yeah,
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  Speaker 4: and herselves. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's not something that she listens.
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  Speaker 4: It's it's I remember this definition. It was wonderful. One
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  Speaker 4: participant said that Clayfield gave her a word that she
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  Speaker 4: could interpret and transform. And yeah, it's so it was
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  Speaker 4: so obvious.
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  Speaker 3: You know.
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  Speaker 4: It's in the same session, water in me a clingly
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  Speaker 4: suffocating mother and can turns into a meaning of a
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  Speaker 4: compassionate mother.
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  Speaker 3: It's just the water.
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  Speaker 4: It's not something big or the box means first maybe
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  Speaker 4: the limiting boundaries and turns to a meaning of protective boundaries.
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  Speaker 4: And that's imagine that even if you can just change
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  Speaker 4: your word with the three basic materials. What can you
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  Speaker 4: do in the life is kind of a and and
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  Speaker 4: full of possibilities to create yourself and yourself again. And yeah,
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  Speaker 4: and it's not just.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, it's very very simple.
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  Speaker 2: It's the box with the clay and the sponge and water.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And clients can take the clay out, yes, described, or
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  Speaker 2: they can put water in, or they can bring the
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  Speaker 2: clay back in. They can dilute it and make it smooth,
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  Speaker 2: or they can.
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  Speaker 3: Build with it.
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  Speaker 2: The main part is always like I project motor impulses
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  Speaker 2: into the material, and I receive sensory feedback from this
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  Speaker 2: experience what we call sensory mooter up their pay him.
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  Speaker 2: And I find that very often trauma interrupts this feedback process,
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  Speaker 2: this relational process that either I can't move, I don't
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  Speaker 2: dare to touch this and do something, or I go
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  Speaker 2: and go and go and make and do and do,
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  Speaker 2: but I never stop to actually experience what, yeah, I've created.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, and what is wonderful is not just the distraction
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  Speaker 4: and creation process within the hands is also kind of
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  Speaker 4: an app and an abstraction too, because you know, it's
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  Speaker 4: meleaning making is really important for all of us and
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  Speaker 4: also for therapy because and trauma king cause the sense
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  Speaker 4: of meaningless emptiness, this avoid and darkness. And I like
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  Speaker 4: this definition of trauma in self psychology and like existential.
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  Speaker 3: Uncertainty, exist uncertainty uncertainly.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, but you have a concrete world within your hands.
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  Speaker 3: And it's not me.
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  Speaker 4: It's the clients who are saying that Clayfields at the
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  Speaker 4: same time themselves and at the same time the world.
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  Speaker 4: And they are not talking about their past experience only
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  Speaker 4: and they said that, and let's say that in talk
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  Speaker 4: therapies they can mention or talk about what they lived
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  Speaker 4: and when they were a baby, or they can imagine.
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  Speaker 3: How to be a baby, but.
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  Speaker 4: They were so clear that they were a baby in
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  Speaker 4: that relationship.
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  Speaker 3: So it's wonderful because you are the.
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  Speaker 4: Baby who cannot understand the world, but you know, verbalized
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  Speaker 4: that at the same time the adults who can interpret
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  Speaker 4: what was happening and what can be changed in their hands.
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  Speaker 3: So and yeah, and it is.
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  Speaker 4: Like you are not anymore an actor in a story
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  Speaker 4: that is already written, okay, and you are the writer
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  Speaker 4: of this story, or you are not obliged to this
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  Speaker 4: reality that is given to you can change with this
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  Speaker 4: physical effort, this reality and make it on your own. So, yeah,
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  Speaker 4: this new sance of self or the perception of the
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  Speaker 4: world emerges from this process. Is not just a mental
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  Speaker 4: realization or not just a body awareness process, or not
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  Speaker 4: just the words that you may forget in two or
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  Speaker 4: three days.
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  Speaker 3: This is something you live.
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  Speaker 4: This is something that you experience and feel throughout your
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  Speaker 4: whole entire body. And this is what we call embodied reflection,
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  Speaker 4: is kind of a profound integration self in a single relational, reflective,
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  Speaker 4: and transformative process. I find it this is wonderful because
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  Speaker 4: it's not just healing the trauma symptoms. It's just an
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  Speaker 4: existential journey that you engage first with your hands and
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  Speaker 4: throughout your body, and you you have this ability to
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  Speaker 4: interpret your world, and then you take this reinterpretation and
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  Speaker 4: again reflectively fueled and work again and then having an
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  Speaker 4: other sense of self. It's just circular and ongoing growing
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  Speaker 4: process that is amazing to see how it also changed
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  Speaker 4: their everyday life.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, I would say all your clients are suffering from
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  Speaker 2: complex trauma like early child trauma that preeverable, and they
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  Speaker 2: had physical symptoms like chronic pain, skin diseases, and what
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  Speaker 2: happened with these symptoms.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, they were so clear that their body, the symptoms
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  Speaker 4: were dramatically increased in their everyday life. But maybe the
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  Speaker 4: most important part, they became kind of a professional of Yeah,
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  Speaker 4: see how their body, and they were using the voice
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  Speaker 4: of their body like an intuitive tool, and they could
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  Speaker 4: detect and what kind of relationships were not good for
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  Speaker 4: them and what kind of relationships were nourishing for them.
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  Speaker 4: So they were not repeating the old relationship patterns in
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  Speaker 4: their relationship. Even they they some of them have this
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  Speaker 4: alcohol problem or some anger issues. They were good with
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  Speaker 4: themselves and they were out from the story. And yeah,
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  Speaker 4: it's not just changing in their symptoms, but they were
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  Speaker 4: more intuitive and new in this world like a newborn baby.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, amazing.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so symptoms decreased significantly after this.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, I said increase.
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  Speaker 4: Sorry, yeah, and yeah, not increase, it decreased.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, but more than anything something that was puzzling them
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  Speaker 2: for years, even not decades, yet they finally understood why
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: their body was responding to toxic relationships in a particular way.
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  Speaker 2: And if I understand you correctly, they could change these
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  Speaker 2: relationships ultimately with themselves.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. And it was also for me.
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  Speaker 4: It was also magical to witness their new findings just
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  Speaker 4: when they were working. Oh, actually I'm an adventurous person.
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  Speaker 4: Oh actually I like to touch.
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  Speaker 3: Oh yeah. They were like, oh my god.
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  Speaker 4: I found someone inside on me that was hidden and
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  Speaker 4: now yeah it's someone different that I didn't know. And
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  Speaker 4: they were so enthusiastic about themselves and new possibilities of themselves.
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  Speaker 4: And this is I guess, the main intention of psychotherapy
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  Speaker 4: and finding new possible tears of ourselves. And it's yeah,
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: when you look at yeah clazy based yeah yeah, yeah,
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  Speaker 4: it's like it can be seen like we're playing with
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  Speaker 4: the mot but no, it's.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's about changing the world.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, thank you Saba. This was great.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you pair, Thank you coming Ye