Latest / Pathological Positivity / Take Breaks Work Better – with John Briggs – Episode #703
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- This is Live On Purpose Radio episode 703, Take Breaks Work Better with John Briggs. Now is the only time to create and live the life you love. I'm doctor Paul Jenkins, the positivity psychologist. My job is to connect you to powerful positive psychology principles that immediately upgrade your relationships, business, and mental health. Are you ready? Let's jump in. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Live on Purpose Radio. This is doctor Paul, the shrink who expands your life with another episode of Live on Purpose Radio. Joining me today again on the mic is John Briggs. John is an author. He's a speaker. He's a leader in business and especially in the tax and accounting area, and he's my accountant. Welcome to the show, John. Glad to have you back. Yeah. Happy to be back. I'm I'm excited for this conversation because when we talked before on the mic, it was about your book, The 3.3 Rule. And, just talking from my memory and my understanding of the 3.3 rule, it basically has to do with how you will work for, like, up to three hours on productive active... You're buckling down, you're focusing, you're getting the work done, and then you take a 30% of whatever that work period was as a break. So you work for three hours, you take an hour break. You work for an hour, you take a twenty minute break. And that's the gist of it, which is a little hard for some people to swallow when they are... I don't wanna label them workaholics, but I just did. John, you published this book a couple of years ago, and now you're coming out with a new book called Take Breaks Work Better. Why another book, John? What is the point here? Well, the main point is I really believe in this message. To me, it's not just another book. It's kind of a a life endeavor at this point because the science of the 3.3 rule has really transformed my life from being that hustle culture poster child, running my family into the ground, like, to saving my marriage, saving relationships, making me a happier, more complete person. Also, got picked up by a publisher. The first book was, self published. And, you know, I didn't wanna turn down the opportunity. Mhmm. But so what we did is the first book is a lot about business application in addition to, like, a whole system. And we said, let's let's strip it all down to just the rule, and let's talk about how the rule gives us permission to take breaks and how the consequences that we end up working better. So it's much more heavy on how the rule can actually be applied in in everyone's life and how you can then take that rule and implement it within your business, whether you have one team member, no team members, or, you know, 10,000 team members. I really wanted to just give everyone every possible tool so that they can live this rule because it transformed my life so much that I just think the world's gonna be a better place if we have better relationships with people, and you can't do that if you're working all the time. You know what? I wanna get into some of the practical applications that maybe you can give us a little preview from the book. But before we go there, I I'm really intrigued with what you just said. And I know some of the history and I know the industry that you work in tax and accounting. There's some traditions there about how much you're supposed to work and especially in tax season, right, which we're just coming through right now. We're... For those of you who are wondering, we're recording this on April 22. And this and this accountant who is here on the show with us today is still actually breathing. And so I know... And and you've got a firm, John, called Insight tax and accounting, which has grown significantly since I first hired you to help me with tax and accounting because I'm a psychologist. I'm clueless about all that stuff, but you've grown this. There's a context around this. There was a time in your life when you bought in to the tradition and it wasn't working for you. Can you just share a little bit of that story with us and why you're so passionate about this now? Yeah. Bought it and just like every other moron, like, dicks... Just, oh, you do that? I'm gonna make it even bigger. You know? It's like... Yeah. So if people aren't familiar, for most accounting firms, they have a minimum fifty five hour a week requirement during busy seasons, and they're usually two busy seasons. There's the initial filing date, and then there's the extension filing date. And so mathematically, that can be about eight months out of the year that these employees are expected to work fifty five hours. Now that's expected. That's the minimum number. So if you actually wanna get promoted and be seen in these companies, you're actually putting in 70 to 80. And so, yeah, I bought into it because that's how I was trained. That's the expectation that was given to me going through college, getting my degree, my jobs at Deloitte. Like, it's just like, this is what this is what you signed up for. This is blah blah blah blah blah. Even when I left Deloitte and went on my own and started my own small firm, it's like, this is how it has to be. This is the time to make money. I gotta do it. Let's... I gotta put in the hundred hours because at that point, you're all wearing all the hats. And there was one night... And so just to give people an idea, my typical work day during that time period, get into work at about 5AM. And then from 5AM to about 9AM, I just do client work because no one's expecting me to talk to them. 9AM to 5PM is is much client communication facing networking sales stuff as I could. And then from 5PM to 2AM, I would do more client work. And if you're doing the math, yeah, that's about two and a half to three hours of sleep a night. But hustle culture pats you on the back and says, congratulations for manipulating time. You are a space traveler. Good for you. Because that's basically getting in about three workdays every twenty four hour period. And I did that, and I thought I was crushing it. I was, you know, providing financial stability to my family. One night, I came home, 2AM. My wife is very pregnant at the time, and we had two other kids. So she's pregnant with our third. And, the light was on. Look. I've been working a lot. And quite frankly, I'm... I was getting a little excited because I'm like, maybe she wants to get intimate. It's been a while because I've been working so hard. And That's probably it. Yeah. And then when I saw her, she didn't have that type of smile on her face. It wasn't that vibe. Yeah. In fact, she actually wasn't smiling at all. And then she... After kind of a pause of silence, kinda like, do I have your attention? She just breaks down completely crying. Big old giant tears, the snot, the hyperventilating, like... The ugly cry. You know what I'm talking about. Yeah. And at the time... Now I love my wife, so I didn't say this out loud. But, unfortunately, I I fought it. I was like, well, isn't that nice? You have the luxury of having a breakdown. Our family can't support... Like, I... They can't afford for me to have this type of lapse. Like, I need to be on all the time. Again, I didn't say it, so I waited for her to speak. And then she said the four words that have since just really got all this rolling and helped me, you know, blow my head out. And it was, I'm a single parent. And I'm just thinking, like, man. I mean, honestly, in that moment, my memory went immediately to our wedding day. And not only did I promise her, I I actually made a vow with her and god that I would be her provider and support. Support being the keyword there that I had been missing. Got the provider part down. And then I remember... Then my memory moved to her giving birth to her first child, also promising to be a partner in raising our children. Not her children. Not my children. Our children. And so it was in that moment I realized, like, man, I have been hustling to the detriment of everything that matters, and I needed to start figuring stuff out. And I wish I could tell you it was a switch, but it definitely was the starting point of realizing this hustle culture stuff isn't what it's cracked up to be. I think we need to change what success... The actual definition of success. I think we need to stop following the the sexy appeal of how hustle culture makes it appear and really realize that... And I can tell you this from experience now after the fact, but my my life is so much more enriched because of all the areas that lead to happiness, not just the financial number or the ego number, which are the only two things hustle culture cares about. And there's a lie embedded in that. Because if we define success... Here's how you be successful. You have to hustle. You have to do the grind. You have to sacrifice everything. And that's what's going to bring the success. See, the lie is it has no ability to bring you what truly would be success. Yeah. You know? And and I think success is when you love your life. Right? The wealth, I mean, if you love your life, you're wealthy. Yep. But I think there's an economic impact to this this theory, this philosophy that you've been developing over the years since. And you said it wasn't a switch. It's a process, not an event. I had no doubt. Because of the programming in our brain, and it's strong. Especially in an industry like tax and accounting, This is just how it's done. Right? I think of law firms as being similar where you just have to, you have to pay your dues. Right? And and you end up sacrificing your life for something that doesn't look much like life. Well... And it's interesting. Like, honestly, the book as it is now, first evolutional seed planted, I wrote a manifesto to the accounting industry, and it's mainly for myself. It's like, I just wanna get this off my chest. We need to change as accountants. Like, if the economy wants to survive and we need small business owners that need our support, we are losing too many accountants out of the industry because of the way it's structured. Yeah. But I started sharing that with people who weren't accountants, and they're like, I was an attorney. I could have used this information. I was an engineer. I challenge anyone who's listening to give me any industry that hustle culture hasn't ingrained itself in. It's across the board. I mean, people feel guilty. I actually... I've... I'm on Substack now, and one of my readers reached out to me. He's like, look. I get the science, but, like, I still feel the guilt. Yeah. You know, I'm like, I... There's nothing I can do to take away your guilt other than maybe this exercise of write down all the things you're afraid that's gonna happen if you take a break. Mhmm. And then at the end of the day, as... I mean, you need to take the breaks during the day. At the end of the day, just reflect. Did any of those things actually happen? And now you can give yourself real life data that helps you understand this emotion you have to the science, the logical science, can start to change within your life because now you have personal experience. It's data that helps you overcome that guilt. Well, like, yeah. I mean, it... Even the science is sounded as is. People are feeling this guilt still because it's literally been ingrained for at least a hundred years. Right. The break in in in the light of the traditional culture around hustle and sacrifice and work yourself to the bone, The the idea behind it is a break is being lazy or neglectful. Right? I mean, there's there's some negative connotations attached to it. But you... You're referring to the science too. And where my brain is going with this, John, I know that some of the things that we do are brain friendly, and some of the things we do are not brain friendly. And the hustle culture is very not brain friendly. It's it's overwhelming. It's stressful. It creates an environment that actually is counterproductive when it comes to what we're actually trying to accomplish in our industry to start with. And I agree with you. I don't think it's industry specific. I think you're just in an industry that's very representative. Yes. There are great poster children for it for sure. So taking breaks, really, is it is it that simple? I mean, yes. And and, yeah, there are definitely bad activities you can do that aren't gonna give you the type of reset. Because the focus... The idea is when you take a break, it needs to reset your energy and restore your focus. Yes. And so not all activities allow you to do that. Now, again, for people listening, just so I'm clear, I am talking about specifically the breaks you take during the hours of the day that you're choosing to work. Outside of your work hours, any of these things that I'm gonna label as bad activities, if you wanna do them, go right ahead. Okay? I'm talking about the idea of when I take an intentional break during my work time, the purpose needs to be so that I can come back to work a 100% focused, which if I don't do, science has shown the data that you are not gonna be as productive. I mean, there's, like, four or five different sites I talk about in my book that all support the same number. They're within, like, ten minutes of each other. But the average worker is only productive for just under three hours a day. And that's in a total... Eight hour works. Yep. Right. So you're paying someone five hours a day to basically not do anything productive. That's the old way without the science. Just sit in on your computer and work. So to be clear, what you're talking about here is a work strategy. Yes. A work productivity strategy. Now we'll put a little footnote in here. This actually makes your life better, but big surprise. When your life is better, you're more productive. Yeah. And so this is a work strategy. You're not talking about how people are gonna spend their leisure time, their vacation. That is a whole different topic. This is a work strategy. Is that fair? That's fair. Yeah. So I'll just say, I mean, top top thing that people like to do on a break that will never work with your brain the way it's designed is doom scrolling. It's the easiest thing for people to go to these days because you have multiple platforms that have it. TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, everyone wants to copy this, like, thing. I mean, if you guys haven't watched The Social Dilemma, I also am gonna say if you cut it out of your work life, you're gonna realize it needs to be cut out altogether. Like, it's scary. The people who program, like, who created it, don't even let their children on it. Like... Well, to that point, John, doomscrolling as you've referred to it, the social media platforms and many video games are designed to hijack and and keep captive your attention. Yep. Which from a scientific standpoint, we refer to that as cognitive load. When you're doing that, your brain is still having a cognitive load. Good break activities allow your brain to release the cognitive load. Yes. Yep. You... And we... So, again, the scrolling, you just... I mean, guys, there's studies out there that did this with monkeys, where it's like they hit a button and it randomly would give them some, like, grape juice. And... But they just kept doing it because of the addictive nature of the randomness. That same science was picked up by gamblers, which is now then... Since been picked up by the social media companies. I get... Our our brains want novelty, and so we get that dopamine hit. But not a great break activity if you're trying to be productive during the work day, though. In fact, you might come back to work feeling a little less focused. Right? So give us, give us some alternatives. So I've been working for three hours. Let's shorten it. I've been working for an hour and a half. Okay. So I got a half hour break. Mhmm. Right? According to the 3.3 rule, I'm gonna take a half hour break. Now employers, chill for a minute. So I'm not paying them to take a break. No. You're paying them to waste time as it is. So what we're doing is a work strategy to improve productivity. What if we could do more in less time? In fact, that's what we're... Take breaks, work better. Right? That's right. So, John, walk us through... Okay. What would it look like to do a brain healthy reset kind of a break? Give us some examples of what you're talking about. Yeah. And so in the book, I talk about a few. My my secret goal... So it's not gonna be much secret anymore. I'd like to come up with 52 ideas and create, like, a card deck. And so every card has a good break idea that people could do, but also could be used for card games if they wanted. Yeah. So so one of the healthiest things you can do on a break is to get up and walk. Walking outside is one of the best ideas, that you can do. Now... Look. I live in Utah. We have beautiful mountains. Like, we're really spoiled when it comes to the outdoors, so I say this is a very biased person of a lover of the great indoors. Even I can't argue with the benefit of going outside. And so walking outside is good. If you don't wanna walk, just going outside can be healthy. Creative things. Journaling is a good thing. Practicing an instrument, that doesn't give you the cognitive load that work does, and so getting a creative release there. Daydreaming is another thing. Getting up and talking to someone else in the office about anything other than work, assuming it doesn't stress you out. We did have a team member once who was taking her breaks. And, unfortunately, she's going through a rough time in her marriage. And, so her break times were having very stressful conversations, with other people about that. And, like, I'm sorry you're going through this, but this isn't a good reset your brain activity. Yeah. That's an appointment with a psychologist. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So the the feeling that I'm getting here has, in my mind, a little more to do with energy management than it does even with time management. Yeah. That's fair. For sure. Yeah. We're spending our time either way. But if we can strategically manage the energy... So you said going outside. And I know I can't quote the specific studies right now, but somebody is going to go Google this and figure it out where getting your face outside where the sun can hit your face. There's something about that. And your face is not in your phone. In fact, I would encourage you to just leave the device back in your desk. Yeah. I don't know if the study's been done, but I'm convinced if someone did do it. They're gonna... The answer is gonna be the vitamin d from natural sunlight is healthier than the blue light from your cell phone. I just... Testing that could be the result. Head to head, who's gonna win? Right? And the blue light, that's interesting, John, because I know that there are studies. I'm thinking of doctor Preston at Stanford. That name comes to mind. Again, somebody's gonna Google that too, and that's fine. Go look for it. Was talking about the main culprits to, not allowing our brain to reset, like stage four sleep, for example, which is a restorative stage of sleep. Alcohol, caffeine, and blue light are the main culprits that interfere with our stage four sleep. Now I know that's a different topic, but what we're getting to here is there is there is a direct physiological impact to what we choose to do. And exposing ourselves to blue light is going to have a different effect than exposing ourselves to a full spectrum ultraviolet. Look at the sun. Sure. I don't I don't mean open your eyes and look at it. Yeah. Maybe don't stare at it. That... That'd be bad advice. But what if you were to close your eyes and put your face in the sun for a minute and just feel that warmth and absorb some of that energy? What if you were to put your feet on mother earth? K. And there's more studies coming out Uh-huh. About grounding. Right? Yeah. In fact, they suggest, like, literally taking off your shoes so your barefoot touches, like, actual mother nature, not necessarily concrete. But... Yeah. Concrete and asphalt don't count. But put them put them on mother earth Yeah. And and feel... Give yourself a moment to just feel whatever you're going to feel. And... And from a cognitive standpoint, your brain needs that. Yes. The Princeton Neurological Institute did a study, and they show that our brain naturally cycles from a state of focus to a state of distractibility. And it just goes like that throughout the day. You need to have an experience like that where you're grounded or you're giving yourself that energy release so that your brain can naturally go through that cycle of distractibility so that when you sit down and tell it you need to focus again, it has the reserves to do it. It's gotta restore the energy and the oxygen that it requires to run that organism. I'm curious, John. What what have you encountered in your research around this related to taking a nap? It's actually one of the best things you can do for your break, and it's my favorite activity. I'm so glad you said that. I'm a shrink. Right? I'm a psychologist. I got a couch in my office. And guess what I use it for mostly a nap. I think, and I learned back in graduate school. I call it the power nap. And I know that different people describe it in different ways, but in your natural sleep rhythm, you go through different stages of sleep. And one of the earliest stages is called, REM sleep, rapid eye movement. And this is typically when we dream. It also tends to be a very restorative, refreshing phase of sleep. Well, most of the studies I've looked at show that you go into that fairly quickly, especially if you're feeling drowsy. You'll go into it fairly quickly and briefly, maybe ten, fifteen minutes. And then you come back out. And at night, you'll just turn over and adjust a little bit and then go back to sleep. Right? And then you go into the deeper phases of sleep. Well, if you get up when you wake up, you feel this refreshment, and it's only been ten or fifteen minutes. It's the most amazing experience for me, and I find that to be a really good reset. I don't know what your experience is with that, John. But... And it's important to know. Like, it is the shorter sleep that we're talking about. I had... My teenage son would... Turns us into two to three hours. I'm like, that is not what I'm referring to here. Because, again, we're talking about during your work time, how can you give yourself basically a pit stop? I actually use the NASCAR analogy in my book. But how do you give yourself a pit stop so your brain gets the reset that it needs so you can come back focused? But, yeah, to me, ten to fifteen minutes is ideal. I I probably wouldn't recommend more than twenty. Right. But, yeah, short, sweet. I perfected mine. I lived in Argentina for two years on a religious mission, and, we sometimes would have a lunch break. And that... I mean, because you're just exhausted that whole time. So Yeah. That twenty minutes during my lunch break, I... That became more important to me than actually eating food. And, and and, like, to anyone who feels like I've never been able to take a nap that short, you can train yourself to do it. And I would recommend if you don't feel like you can, set yourself a timer in the beginning, but your body loves that. I mean, it's a great reset. It's a great 3.3 break. And it is very brain healthy. I'm thinking also of, Scott Halford, in his book. And I'm I'm not recalling the title right off, but he went into a lot of the neuro physiology and the the neuropsychology behind this and said the same thing, a nap. Great idea. And put some limits around that. If you allow yourself to go into a full sleep cycle, you're probably going to come out of it more groggy and lethargic. This... We're talking about just... You get into that earliest stage of sleep. As soon as you come out of that stage, just open your eyes. And you don't have to pop right up right then, but open your eyes and just notice how you feel. You're going to notice some really cool things. This is the reset that you're talking about. Yep. I love that. Do you have some other examples that are coming to mind for you or practical applications? I'm really curious about that too. How do we implement this in our, in our job or what if our employer isn't really supportive of this? I mean, there's a lot of things that can come up. Yeah. I mean, look. Most companies, by law, if you work a full day... A full eight hour a day, like, there's two fifteen minute breaks you're supposed to have and a thirty minute lunch. Mhmm. That's only half. Like, if you follow the math of the 3.3 rule, really, you should be having about two hours worth of breaks throughout an eight hour period. I mean, all I would say is you you probably have to buy the book and send it to your supervisors so they give you permission to do this. But that's hard. Right? Because it is ingrained everywhere, and there's you wanna keep your job. So that's part of the reason why I wrote the book a different way this time, simpler, shorter, so that I could hopefully get more people to read it so that we can get this message out. But if you're a business owner, you have complete control over this. So, John, you're a business owner. I am. You used to be employed, and then you were self employed, which is just creating a big job for yourself. It's also known as unemployment. That you're also... And now you're a business owner. You have a legitimate business with hundreds of employees. It's... Talk to us for just a minute from that seat. Okay. Yeah. Because the the the main concern, obviously, is the bottom line. Right? The productivity of the company. And I know you have some ideas about that, but just talk to us from that seat for a minute. Yeah. I'll first start... When I enrolled this out with my team, even before I wrote the first book, the 3.3 rule, I mean, I would say half of them were kinda like, what's the catch? So I'm saying, like, yeah. Take a break. And on that break, I absolutely do not want you to do any work. Okay. Like, they almost thought it's like, are you trying to have a reason to fire me? And so... Yeah. What's going on here? It took some convincing. And part of that is walking around, and when I saw someone on a break, I would make a big deal about it. Hey. Looks like you're on a break. Awesome. What are you doing? Hey. That's great. Glad you're gonna do that. You know? Also some coaching. Like, what are you doing? Get off of Instagram. What else can you do? Looks like Bob's on a break as well. Maybe you guys could just go for a walk together. You know? Like, so there is... There are some roadblocks. Because, again, this idea of taking breaks and the guilt people feel is so ingrained everywhere, that even after I presented the science to them and being in complete control as the one who found the science, created the rule, and implemented in the business, they still had skepticism. Mhmm. But then they get they get used to it. Right? And so now it it becomes... Right now, the way we manage it more so is you go from a state of initially implementing it. Sometimes you put some timers on to a point where you're trying to train them to recognize. When you start feeling like you're getting out of focus, that is a signal that you need to take a break. Because introvert, extrovert, what are your preferences? Do you wanna be on phone calls? Are you doing admin work? Are you sending emails? Every single thing, there are so many factors just in the work in the... That you have that can affect your desire to even focus on it. Whether you like it or not. Because, like, every... There's not a job out there that I'm aware of, but there's not something you have to do that you're like, I love a 100% of everything that I have to do. There's always gonna be something. Right? Yeah. And those are the ones... Like, for me personally, I need to break those up into shorter burst of time and then take more frequent breaks. But... So then you have that element, and then we add in the complexity of life. What did my evening look like? How did I sleep? Did I have a stressful or awesome conversation with my family before I left work? Is there something going on in my life? Do I have a relative who's maybe going through something difficult? All those things affect our cognitive load and mental ability to focus. So I might be able to sit down one day and work on forecasting because I love it. And the next day, I might have to take more frequent breaks because of just the nature of things. And so, ultimately, it's really a permission for people to really get in touch with their ability to focus and their emotions and, like, the energy that they're, like, just putting out in the worlds. That's the long term vision. It's a process. And, obviously, the book, I help... I hope it helps people walk through that evolution of kind of, like, k. Here's a formula. Here's some principles I'm gonna live by to now. It's just so ingrained into me intuitively. Yes. And I think it is self perpetuating because you begin to see the results quickly, especially from a personal standpoint. But I appreciate that you've spent a little time, John, telling us from your perspective as a business owner too, and arguably one of the most successful tax and accounting firms that I am personally aware of. And I don't go visit all of them, but I I see that you are doing well with this. And I think you would attribute a lot of the accept... The success of your organization to following exactly what you're teaching us in this book. Yeah. And that's a good point. I mean, I... Look. I I went into the science because my wife, I... She should never feel like she's a single parent. And she wasn't wrong about that. Yeah. She's not. If I'm only sleeping at the house for three hours a day, not really around very often. But kind of a fun benefit, which is why I'm like, maybe this should be a book. It made the company more profitable. You guys, the science shows... Studies show your team members and potentially you are only being truly productive for three hours a day. With the science of the 3.3 rule and implementing it, you double that productivity from three hours to six hours. Why? Because you intentionally give yourself permission to take two hours off during those time periods. During the work period. So right now, you are... If you have team members, you're paying them five hours a day to get nothing done. Implementing the rule, now all of a sudden, you're only paying them for two hours a day to not get something done. But, you know, that... I mean, that's not the right lens to look from it. But, you know, if that's how you wanna look through it, that's fine. You're still gonna be more productive, which... That's how the math works.... Profitability. Yeah. More profit. Folks, the name of the book is Take Breaks Work Better. We're recording this episode before the actual release of the book, but it is available for preorder, and you'll wanna do this. So go to takebreaksworkbetter.com. There's a preorder option there when you go to the page already available through Amazon on the preorder. Do yourself a favor. Become more familiar with, comfortable with, and ready to implement this rule. It changes the game. It has for me. I know it has for you, John. Thank you for sharing some of those insights with us here today. Hey. Thanks for having me. And, you guys, if you follow the instructions on the preorder page, I just may send you a copy of the book, at least digitally, before it's available in September. What? And when the audio is done, I'm gonna send you a free copy of that if you preorder. Okay. There's bonuses. It's a good thing you're listening to Live On Purpose radio because we're getting all of the the the back office secrets here today. John, thank you for, sharing some of your perspectives on this today. Folks, we've heard it. It is time to apply it. Let's go live on purpose. Did you get what you came for? Give yourself the gift of taking real action on what you realized today. Please share this episode with someone you know would value it, and leave us a rating too. It's time now to live on purpose.