Latest / B Shifter / Frank Leeb on His New Mission, Safety, Training and Effective Firefighters

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Frank Leeb on His New Mission, Safety, Training and Effective Firefighters · B Shifter

• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome everyone to the B-Shifter podcast.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: I'm your host, john Vance, very glad to have you along today, along with Chris Stewart and our special guest Frank Lieb who is joining us after retiring recently?
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: I always get this wrong Deputy Assistant Chief or Assistant deputy chief.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, deputy assistant chief, deputy assistant chief.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: Everybody confuses that.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: People in my organization confuse that.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, you've got a brand new role, which we'll get to in a few minutes and talk about what you're doing right now.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: One of the exciting things is, if you're listening to us, the week of July 8th is the B-Shifter, I'm sorry.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: The Blue Card Hazard Zone Conference is coming up in September.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: Beginning of October.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: September 30th is actually when the pre-conference kicks off, and this is the last week to get the early bird special in which everyone would get $100 off per participant plus a transferable blue card subscription.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: And Frank is one of our main instructors this year.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: Frank, what are you going to be talking about at the Hazard Zone Conference in Cincinnati this year?
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, first of all, thanks for having me on the show Again.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: I enjoy coming on and speaking with you guys and this year I'll be speaking about mid-rise dwellings and one of the feedback some of the feedback from last year's conference right was, hey, let's do something about mid-rise, and I remember that I let you know.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: I said, hey, I could put together a program on mid-rise.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: We respond to an awful lot of mid-rise and we could certainly fulfill that need, and immediately.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: Like I hadn't even left Cincinnati last year and you guys had me set for this coming year, so I'm looking forward to it.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: It's going to be an exciting couple of days there.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: If it's anything like last year's event, it'll be great.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: But I'll tell you what.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: I'm not going on television this year wearing a Hawaiian shirt.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: So last year Whoa, whoa, whoa.
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: That's part of the requirements.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: So I didn't mind going up on stage wearing a Hawaiian shirt I don't remember Hawaiian shirt Friday or whatever.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: He said, hey, the news is here and they want to speak to a couple of the guys.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: I said, hey, the news is here and they want to speak to a couple of the guys.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: I said, but I'm wearing a Hawaiian shirt.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: I got to at least change out of my Hawaiian shirt and you said, and I quote nah, everybody's going to have their Hawaiian shirt on.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: Well, I was the only one with the Hawaiian shirt on Now.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: I want you to know that I actually just left the store and I bought a Hawaiian shirt for this year, so I plan on wearing my Hawaiian shirt on Friday.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: Oh listen, I'm going to wear my Hawaiian shirt.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: I'm just not wearing it again If the news crew shows up and they say, hey, we want to interview that guy from New York City along with you guys, because the viewers of the news that night were probably saying who's this clown wearing a Hawaiian shirt.
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: That's the way they do it in New York, yeah.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: The tropical New York City guy.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: That's great.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: And Chris, what are you doing this year at the conference?
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: You've got a class too.
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm going to be talking about our strategic decision-making workshop.
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: So, you know, connecting incident command, the functions of command and that type of stuff to decision-making for operations and actions on the in the hazard zone led by the IC, and so really taking looking at the blue card standard critical or strategic decision-making model, which essentially is our critical thinking model, and then how that actually applies.
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: So there's the incident command system and then now we need to start making decisions about what and how we're going to do things on the fire ground from that IC or the division boss or sector boss perspective.
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: And so, yeah, so we'll be talking about that for 45 minutes or so and giving a preview and trying to get folks interested in either coming to or having one of our workshops in their location.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: Well, we want to encourage everyone to take advantage of that early bird price and get registered this week.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: The other thing, too, is we're about down to 250 seats left.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: I think Josh kind of felt like that was a loose number, to have 700 people, but the venue called him and let him know there's not a 701.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: So once we're sold out, we're sold out.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: So we want everyone who wants to have this opportunity to learn from some of the best ICs and instructors in the country go to HazardZoneBCcom and get registered for the Hazard Zone Conference this year, and I look forward to seeing you guys there with our Hawaiian shirts on Friday.
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a fantastic venue, that's a great venue, and I'll tell you, when I met the first time I met Chris was part of the UL Acquired Attack study and the strategic conversations, decision-making conversations that that we've had over the years since then, it sounds like that's what the class is going to be all about.
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: So that's going to be a, a can't miss class.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: Your, your critical thinking is on a different level than than most, and I know that'll be.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: I just wonder how you're going to get it down to 45 minutes.
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: Our phone conversations are never more than you know, never, never less than 45 minutes.
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: So that'll be interesting to see, to see how you get it down to that.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: But that's a can't miss class for sure.
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: No one to stop when people get up and walk out of the room.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that.
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: Well, frank, you recently pulled the plug completely from the FDNY and you know, fdny is certainly one of the most heralded fire departments in our country.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, people look up to it, it's one of the largest.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: It's groundbreaking a lot of times and I just wanted you to reflect that before we talk about your new role.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: You know how you came to that decision and really, what do you feel like?
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: The highlight of your career at FDNY was.
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: Well so.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: So asking the highlight of my career is like it's like asking which is your favorite child.
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: You know I've been.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: I've been blessed in my 31 years 246 day career who's counting?
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: But I've had so many high moments.
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: Here's the bottom line, right.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: So I say to people that love the job and its people and I love you back, right.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: And I love the job, I love the fire service and I have put so much into it.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I could put anything more into it.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: I put so much in but I get so much more out than I can ever put in opportunities outside of my job, the friends that I've made along the way.
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: It's just been an amazing time in my career in the FDNY and, as you mentioned, I'll continue to be involved with the fire service because you can retire from the FDNY but I'll never retire from the fire service.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: And teaching firefighters and going to conferences there's just too much.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: And I'm still in my.
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: I'm still a member of a volunteer department as well and there's ways that I can continue to contribute there, which is good as well.
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: But and now I forgot what your sort of favorite moment was yeah, there's so many.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: There's so many moments and so many moments that stand out, even if they're not necessarily a favorite moment.
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: Every day going to Metal Day is a fantastic, a fantastic event.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: Every promotion, first day, first fire, first real fire, february, first real good fire.
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: I had February of 1993, kings Highway and Avenue D seven story, multiple dwelling fire, fire out a whole bunch of windows and the experience that I got from from that fire and just and in and in so many, so many others I've been uh yeah, I couldn't limit it down to uh to one, but certainly Metal Day and promotion, celebrate, celebrating with your people.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: There's nothing better than celebrating with your people.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: Um, and in the FDNY on Metal Day and our promotion ceremonies are truly highlights of an organization that thoroughly celebrates its people and their accomplishments.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: One of the questions I had for you was the officer training process that FDNY goes through, because I know it's a.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: It's a very tough process just to take the test and I've been in firehouses where you know, back a few years ago, where there was a whole box full of books and their books about elevators and books about the electrical code and that's just to be made lieutenant.
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: So it's a competitive process to get those jobs.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: Then how do you guys prepare officers to be out in the field?
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: What does that process look like?
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: So, as you mentioned, you'll go into a firehouse with somebody that's preparing for the exam and for my lieutenant's test, for example.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: Actually for every rank I got a study group together and we studied for two years In fact, on September 11th 2001,.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: My study group was supposed to meet that morning.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: Our lieutenant's test was supposed to be October of 2001.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: Obviously it wound up being canceled, but we had been studying for two years at that point.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: So the fact that FDNY members, the competitiveness of that exam is so great that when you go, when you're ready to get promoted, and you go to our first line supervisor program, flps, you have such a base of all of the procedures fire prevention, you know the procedures both you know tactical procedures for on the ground, you know on the fire ground and for the administrative policies that you're building off of a really good foundation and we'll bring them offline for this first-line supervisor program and make sure that everybody has that same base of knowledge.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: And it's funny, you'll sit there.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: I remember sitting in a class and they're going over private dwelling fires and I'm like who doesn't know private dwelling fires?
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: And then a firefighter from Manhattan asks a fairly basic question about private dwellings and I'm like well, that's why, right, so we have to make sure that everybody's starting.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: You know, let's get everybody on the same page and review certain things, because there's tidbits and nuggets of information that if you didn't work in those areas you may not have it.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: And likewise, the Manhattan firefighter would be able to give you nuggets when we spoke about high rise or high rise building repeaters and hose line placement, ladder operations, those type of things.
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: So it gets everybody on that same level and then they raise the.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: They continue to raise the bar from there.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: But every single rank in the FDNY, when you get promoted, you come offline and you go to class.
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: Every single rank you know lieutenant, firefighter to lieutenant, lieutenant to captain, captain to battalion chief, battalion to deputy.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: Even a brand new deputy chief comes offline for one week and other deputies come in and they'll go over different scenarios with you and all those things just to prepare you for the new rank.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: Obviously, the biggest transition is firefighter to lieutenant and then captain to chief officer, but in a lot of role-playing scenarios it's a fantastic program that does a great job of preparing our members for the next rank and it's something, quite frankly, every organization should.
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: You shouldn't just promote somebody and just hope that they get it right, because you know hope's not much of a strategy or a tactic.
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: So you want to kind of put that to bed and make sure that you have knowledgeable people that are going to be able to run an incident, run a company you know, or even a greater, a greater alum.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: One of the reasons I wanted to ask you that was because I I understood it was an intensive training program and really as we travel around doing blue card classes, we find most of the United States they don't do anything.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, it is one day you're a firefighter, next day here's your badge, you're now Lieutenant, and they might do a little orientation and they might have some guidelines for you, but there isn't much preparing most of our officers that we, that we tend to see, especially in suburban departments you know, and I think podcasts and different there's so many different training classes that you can go to or bring into you to train your officers, but you're asking for trouble in the long term if you're not preparing your officers to lead.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: And I would go even a step further is, obviously we have to be brilliant at the basics right.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: So competency at our job, tactically and strategically speaking, on a fire ground, is paramount.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: But we don't teach soft skill leadership either, and those are things that we should be teaching to our youngest firefighters and it shouldn't be well.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: If we do that, then we're not going to have time to teach forceful entry, we're not going to have time to teach ladder operations or how to stretch a hose line.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: No, no, no.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: That training needs to continue, but we need to better educate our people on some of those soft skill leadership, because it doesn't matter whether you become a boss or you don't become a boss.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: The next class of recruits that you have in your department in 20 years from now, one's going to be a senior firefighter leading the company informally.
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: One's going to be a lieutenant, two are going to be captains, a couple of chiefs, and one of those is probably going to be leading your organization and if you preload that early on in their career, some of those soft skill leadership traits and some of that management and leadership, they are going to be so good.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: It's just a force multiplier because you'll have that for the duration of their career.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: And departments don't recognize that and training budgets are tight.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: I get that.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: But Kurt Verone puts it best and he's a pretty well-known and trusted lawyer for the fire service.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: He writes in the publications all the time and he says 80%, at least 80% of litigation in the fire service comes out of soft skill leadership stuff and how to deal with people.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: Because we all know that officer right when you pull up to the firehouse.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: And you know how to deal with people because we all, we all know that officer right where you pull up to the firehouse and you're like, oh, my god, I'm gonna have to work with this guy.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: Hopefully he's on his medication today and you know, because you don't know what you're gonna get right and if, and this, this firefighter right, this officer you might at a fire, he might be the best in the job, right, but yet you hate working with him because he has no bedside manners, doesn't know how to treat people, and that's the difference between good leadership and inspirational leadership people that you want to follow, that you want to be like, and departments miss that all the time.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: I think the challenges with the smaller departments is they only have a couple of leaders.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: It's hard to cross that cross-polarization, but that's why you have to send your people to other classes, other conferences, podcasts, all of these things, because these are the avenues where we could fill these gaps.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: But you're 100% right, john, when you say it, that the fire service is largely missing the boat when it comes to preparing our officers for day one as an officer.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: And then we wonder why.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: Well, let's talk.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: Congratulations, by the way, on such a great career.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: Arguably, you've made a huge impact already being an FDNY chief and you're continuing that impact Number one.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: You just fire me up so much when I hear you speak.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: That's why I'm looking forward to the conference.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: I love listening to you on other podcasts.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: I'm glad you're on ours.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: But now you've got a new role with the First Responder Center for Excellence.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: Tell us first of all what the First Responder Center for Excellence is.
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: So the First Responder Center for Excellence, the FRCE, is a affiliate organization of the National Fallen Firefighter Foundation.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: So in 2016, the NFFF decided that they needed to stay on their mission of taking care of firefighters' families, that they decided they needed to make an affiliate organization, which the FRCE was born.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: Which the FRCE was born, and I view my role with the FRCE as the managing director of the NFFF does a fantastic job, led by Victor Stagnaro, and he's the CEO of both the NFFF and the FRCE.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: And Gary Kurtzbaum, he's the managing director of the National Foreign Firefighter Foundation, and they do a fantastic job with all the programs that they have, what they've done for the FDNY after September 11th, with our counseling unit, with all the different things that they do.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: But the FRCE, our job, is to make it where the NFFF doesn't get to meet your family, and if they do, it's not until you're very, very old and we do that by you know, that's the job of our job as a young firefighter, right, as an older firefighter, is to make sure younger firefighters live a long, healthy life by having a long, healthy career.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: So the NTrip left doesn't get to get to see them.
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: Right, that's our goal is to make is to make older firefighters that are, that are healthy, that could live long and prosper.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: And for the FRCE we have six core areas behavioral health, cancer, cardiac firefighter physicals, health, wellness and nutrition, and health, wellness and fitness.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: And a seventh one that is a string within all of them is safety.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: And a seventh one that is a string within all of them is safety.
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: And for me, taking a position with them was just on brand, because I care about firefighters, I care deeply about firefighters and their health and their safety and well-being.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: But I also believe that, you know, we have a sworn obligation to the public and we uphold that by making sure that we are healthy, that we are safe, and that enables us to be aggressive because we are well-trained.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: A well-trained, safe firefighter is an aggressive firefighter.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: We understand there's a risk, there's a risk in every single thing you do, but we can better manage that risk.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: Of all of those things that we mentioned, and for me it's passionate.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: I'm tired of going to my friend's funerals.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: I'm tired of hearing about another firefighter's suicide, I'm tired of seeing firefighters' careers ended early, prematurely, because it's about preventing the preventable and we can do so much more and that is the goal of what the First Responder Center for Excellence, which is firstrespondercenterorg if anybody's interested in going on the website and checking them out.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: We have lots of resources.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: We have a learning management platform that we're in the process of building even more classes for that, and those classes are free of charge for any fire department or firefighter.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: We have classes that you can sign up for and take.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: We have other classes that we could bring to you.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: There's so many different resources that are out there and that's what we want to be a resource for the fire service to help keep our firefighters healthy, safe, to live a long career, whether you're in a volunteer or career department, and that you could enjoy your time when you retire Even that right.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: Too often we hear about a firefighter retires and a couple of months later they pass away or they get a terminal illness, and we we must do better to protect you know to protect ourselves.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: We must do better to protect, you know to protect ourselves.
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: So, frank, there's, there's a lot of important stuff there.
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: What?
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: Why should line firefighters, line officers, pay attention to this and why is it?
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: Why does it matter to them and what's the connectivity for them?
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: Why does it matter to them and what's the connectivity for them?
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: Because you know, we hear a lot about there's these organizations out there that are just they're so focused on safety and they don't care about, you know, us doing the job and all that stuff.
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: And I know that's not the case for you specifically, and then for the FRCE.
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: So so why should they care?
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, chris, and that's a great question, because I want firefight.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: Listen, know your job, do your job right and that way, when, when you do that, you could do it aggressively, right and and safely.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: There is, you know there is.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: We should be thinking about our firefighter safety and we should also be thinking about we should be thinking about our firefighter safety and we should also be thinking about you know, Mrs and Mr Smith, because we have to get them right.
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: But the more, the more you know, the better you are.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: If you were to take a one year firefighter and a 15 year firefighter and tell them to go aggressively search a bedroom on the second floor of a private dwelling and you're looking at it and it looks like it's going to light up of a private dwelling, and you're looking at it and it looks like it's going to light up and as a senior firefighter, you wouldn't go in that window.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: But the young firefighter, all she knows is aggressive, right, so he becomes a kamikaze.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: So that's not what we need to be training our people.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: We need to train so that way we can have safety and aggressive be together, Because we're not going to eliminate the risk, but we could better manage it by having quality, frequent, high fidelity training.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: Right, that's what it is.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: There has to be a degree of common sense in all of this.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: And I think which standards that I sit on and stuff, especially 1585, the new contamination control standard that just came out it's about we got to be able to do our job.
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: Firefighting is a dirty job, it's a dangerous job and we're not going to totally eliminate that risk.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying, because ask your family if they want you to come home at the end of a shift or a tour.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: They want you to come home and they want you to be healthy and there's nothing wrong with that.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: We should be able to.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: Safety and aggressive should be able to coexist.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: And when we say they can't, you just don't know what you're talking about.
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: You're not educated.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: If you make the statement, if your logic is that safety and aggressive can't coexist, you just don't know.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: You're off base.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: You're big time off base Because I have worked with some amazing firefighters in my career that have done it.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: I'm not talking about theoretically firefighting.
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: I'm talking about actually doing the job that at times, to save a life, they have risks their life beyond the shadow of a doubt right Like wow, that was an amazing move.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: But we knew somebody was in there and they made the grab.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: We're not talking about that.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: We're going to risk a lot to save a lot.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: We know that.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: But why would you not decon?
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: Why would you not clean up afterwards?
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: Why would you not understand the mental health aspect of what we're doing?
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: There's so many different things to just blanketly say we've got to be aggressive for the sake of being aggressive.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: Listen, my department is as aggressive as any department in the world.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: We will rescue more than 100 people this year, just like we did last year, and at Metal Day we'll celebrate 80 of them or somewhere in that neighborhood.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: But that's because we train, we play to win, on every run, every tour, every day.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: Losing is not an option.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: Go ask somebody in your is losing an option for you?
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: Chris john is losing?
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: No, it's not an option.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: Hell no.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: And that's the way.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: That's the mindset that no, we're not going to lose, but we win, we win.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: We prepare for it's a football game.
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: We prepare for the fourth quarter and overtime by putting in the extra sets and reps when it matters most, when you're tired and when you've already put it in, put in a full day's effort.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: You're putting in more than anybody else and that's why you have better outcomes than anybody else.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: And anybody that says otherwise, I don't know.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: Either they're talking theoretic firefighting or they don't have the experience.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: But talking to firefighters that have done it and I've seen them risk it all to save a life, when they're going in they're not consciously thinking of their safety, but subconsciously they're training and all that they have their training, their teamwork, their mentorship, everything that got them to that point is a culmination coming together which equals safety, even though they're taking a higher risk at that point.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: But they won't necessarily tell you it's a higher risk to them.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: To the uneducated eye, it looks like an unacceptable risk because they don't understand the training and dedication that they put in, because the time for preparation is over when the tones go off.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: It is the time that you put in the trenches and the sets and reps that matter beforehand, because safety and something not being safe is really in the eyes of the beholder.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: If I know what I'm doing and I know what I'm looking at, a civilian who has no idea isn't going to understand the risk that is necessary to take.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: A well-trained, educated firefighter understands that, and safety is a built-in component of that.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: And to say that we could isolate them in silos is equally unrealistic, because they're part of the total package.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: Safety in firefighting comes with training and education, and anybody who thinks otherwise, again, I think, is off base.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: Which is why I say don't let anybody shortchange your training.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: Our training is too important.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: Training budgets get cut all the time, but the uniform must always be advocating for training.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: You're either getting better or you're getting worse.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: No one stays stagnant, which is you.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: I try and read or do something fire related every day, because no one's going to fires every day.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: So, uh, iron sharpens irons and and and and.
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: Do the job and make sure that you're putting in, putting in the time that's necessary to, to, to be safe and aggressive and actually come home at the end of the tour so a big part of this seems to be uh, it's kind of a maturity and in thinking and how we're we're representing ourselves, because there's a time and a place where we're we're very focused on the risky, uh, being able to perform in the risky situations that we should and and be ready to actually perform.
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: Um, but then as we mature, I don't think that lessens, but we also become way more aware of why I need to be safe, because if something bad happens to me on the fire ground, I can't finish my job right.
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: And I actually showed up to do my job, and so there's a connection here, I think.
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: So you were talking about mental health, you were talking about cancer prevention.
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: You talked about some other physical and medical wellness programs that the FRCE connects to.
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: Why do those matter as well in the performance?
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: Because those aren't trying to take away from the aggressive nature of our work.
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: They're trying to enhance our lives and our longevity in that.
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: So what does that mean for you guys, or what's your perspective on that?
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: And that's a great point, chris, and it could be as simply as so.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: Not far from, not far from where I live on Long Island, recently there was a car accident where the driver drove straight to a nail salon, killed four people.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: Nine people were bad.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: It was a horrific scene and they got mental health resources for the responders right away, because it's about making sure that these people can continue to function, because we have to be aware of increases in suicide rates and just all the different things that impact our beloved profession profession and sometimes you know you're not meant to see somebody who's been crushed in a car accident or the person who's the last person to speak to somebody.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: So getting those resources or preloading some of these coping mechanisms in before, because we lose people not only when they die, but we lose them sometimes to mental illness and in some cases they never recover.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: So we have to make sure that we're thinking about the long game here and the resiliency of our firefighters.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: Resiliency in that you know how to exercise and work out and then how to recover, to be, so that way you are the best nozzle firefighter that you can be, that you're ready for the next, for the next fire alarm but also make sure that we are recovering you mentally, that your brain and your mind are in the right place and stay in the right place.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: And that's where and the younger firefighter doesn't think that's needed.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: I didn't think it was needed as a young firefighter, but I've had friends that have suffered from mental illness.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: I've had friends that have killed themselves.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: I've had friends that have you know, that have died of occupational cancer, and these are the things that, like these, are some of the things that we could prevent, and when it's mental health or behavioral health, we don't always look at that in the same, in the same light, but we lose those people without them dying.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: And, man, I know, and as I travel around and I speak to people, I know a lot of people in our profession that are struggling with an experience that they had, you know, and I think about.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: You know, after September 11th, the month after September 11th, we had a plane crash in the Rockaways and I responded to that on the first along and we operated there for a couple of hours and there were like 270 people 268 people died in that or something like that and I had zero emotion.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: I went home and I was upset because I, as I told my wife, I'm like what have I become?
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: That should impact me, right, but I was emotionally numb.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: From how much can one individual, how much can you take right before you just shut off?
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: And we didn't have the resources then to deal with it.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: It was right after September 11th, our counseling services, everything.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: This guy, frank Lito, took over our counseling services after September 11th and what it became in the next 20 years is remarkable.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: Where, as the incident commander at, say, the Twin Parks fire, we had counselors there before our members were leaving the scene.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: That is a dramatic shift.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: That is a sea change, a generational change for the better, in that we're making sure that we take care of our people, because we don't always.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: We can tell if somebody has a broken leg, but we can't always see a broken brain and they could be repaired, just like the leg can be.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: But we have to recognize it and we have to build in that resiliency and that's what the FRCE is really all about.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: That's one of the things.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: And again, for young firefighters, you know they're not always interested in it, but we need to be able to be.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: We need firefighters to be interested in their health and wellness, because that's how, that's how you, part of the way you become a an old, seasoned firefighter that can just, you know, talk tactics, like I love, like I mentioned earlier.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: Right, call you up, chris, and we'll talk for two hours about strategy and tactics, and you know I'll never get tired of doing that.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: But we need to make inroads in some of these other categories.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: These other categories and I think that's the it's why I'm drawn to them, because I realize now and actually I've worked with the First Responder Center for Excellence for the last five years in some capacity, whether it's as an advisor or making videos for them on occupational cancer, other things because it matters.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: And when young firefighters see this earlier, they're able to better protect themselves from all different things that are going to be thrown at them in their career, and that's that's really what it boils down to.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: So the importance of it is that we can help build mental capacity, mental resilience, resilience for all of these different things, and be a partner with you to ensure that long career where, when you get to my stage in life you know I have a two and a half year old granddaughter, that you know I hope that I can be around for her to graduate high school and college and get married and all the bucket list things that I want to do in life, and you do that by starting young and understanding some of the stuff that firefighters need to know.
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: I wish I had somebody like me when I joined the fire service all those years ago, because I would still be.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: I've been in some great companies that have done a lot of work and were very busy and I wouldn't change that at all.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: But I would change the way.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: Certainly I would change the way after the fire, what I do, the way I clean up.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: I would take better care of myself as far as sleep.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: I would build in mental capacity for mental resiliency, something that wasn't something that anybody was talking about, that we do today.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: I would make sure that my physical fitness routine incorporated flexibility and stretching and stuff like that, because that all impacts you on the fire ground.
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: All these things enable you to operate better on the fire ground in in different ways.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: Right, the ecosystem of the fire service is all interconnected.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: Every piece of it is interconnected, from why we have ventilation, limited fires sooner because of the modern contents that are burning to the mental aspect of it to to everything else it is.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: Our ecosystem is is all inter interrelated and the better you are, the more knowledgeable you are at any of these topics.
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: Makes you a safer, more aggressive and better firefighter.
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: On the fire period well, it's probably not obvious.
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: You know the people watching this, you know we we look way, way younger than we actually are um, the three of us on here, um, but we would like everybody to be able to get to that point, or young firefighters get to that point, and and and the things that frank you're talking is is is how we're going to get there in a better state and mentally, physically, all of that, and and it lets you do your job longer, which is also a benefit there.
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah and better, right.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: So you know what's the optimal firefighter.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: I want a thinking, well-trained, physically fit firefighter.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: In the FDNY, in the past five years we've rewritten the majority of our bulletins and I've had a say in a great many of them.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: And what have we done when we've rewritten them?
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: Well, so a lot of them.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: We've incorporated either science or research to make sure that our policies align with what's best out there.
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: So we take the research and the science and couple it with the FDNY experience what are we actually seeing on a fire ground and make optimal procedures, and then we test them every day, so it doesn't take long before the next fire occurs in New York City where we'll be able to test it.
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: But the other thing in that we put, we added a lot of the why right, so that you understand it, because that thinking firefighter is what we want.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: And we've also added gray areas because the firefighter earns his paycheck in the gray areas of our procedures, where you understand the why, and that when you need to operate outside of the written playbook, that you know how to do it, that when you see something that that's not fully defined in our procedures.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: I don't want robots, I can't legislate, nor do I want to legislate everything on a fire ground, because the best actions on the fire ground often entail a firefighter who didn't totally follow the SOP, and in the FDNY we're good with that.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: Sound practices have sound reasons.
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: And you went in there and you did something that wasn't exactly according to the SOP or the procedure and you saved a life.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: Well, that's what we're here for, right.
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: But you didn't just arbitrarily take a risk unnecessarily.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: You understood the risk.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: Again, that's what we're here for, right.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: But you didn't just arbitrarily take a risk unnecessarily.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: You understood the risk Again.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: That all comes back to.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: It funnels down to our foundation, which is our training.
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: Training is the cornerstone, it is the heartbeat of every organization on the planet and the fire service is no different.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: You know you can't do anything if you don't know how, and you can't do anything you know you don't know what you don't know.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: So you know, as a 17-year-old firefighter, I thought I knew it all and I look back and laugh how little that 17-year-old firefighter knew.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: It's comical, how little I knew.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, prepared firefighter, somebody who's well trained and is prepared to make the call whatever that is is going to be somebody who's going to have a healthier, happier life.
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: Because there's nothing like that hindsight in the rear view mirror of like, wow, I wasn't prepared for this, I didn't know how to handle this situation.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: I've never trained on that procedure that I was asked to do.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: I mean and we see it happen a lot because, frankly, there's a lot of departments out there that don't train, there's firefighters that don't seek out training.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: So, amen, brother, because I think that is absolutely the training, is the foundation for it, and that's what's going to make us healthier, happier firefighters.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: And you know it doesn't always go our way and we're going to see the horrific things like you talked about, frank, but you're going to be better prepared for them if you're preparing every day for them.
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, if you're not training, if your department's not training, that's malfeasance, right?
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: That's negligence at this point, and the more you train, right.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: So it's.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: It's about pushing down decision-making to the lowest levels possible.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: I want the firefighter that's coming in off of the fire escape to recognize by looking, you know, recognize where the fire is in the building, recognize that he should be going in or she should be going in that window and making these decisions.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: I don't again it's.
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: It comes down to making sure that window and making these decisions.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: I don't again.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: It comes down to making sure that we could push these decisions down to the lowest level.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: And that comes with training our people and empowering them to make decisions that they know.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: If I make a good decision, I'm not going to get, I'm not going to get punished, and guess what?
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: Sometimes the decision is not going to be the best decision and they still won't get punished for that.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: But there's that.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: But there also should be some non-negotiables.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: Right, and non-negotiables should be that you're training right.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: That's an obvious non-negotiable, because you're gonna get better.
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: There's certain things that don't impact our operation.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: That should easily be non-negotiable and I think that's one of training.
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: You have to be training and you have to have a standard.
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: Frank, switching gears to cancer and cancer prevention a little bit.
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: You know we keep hearing about PFAS and turnout gear and I'm kind of lost on where I personally even know about this right now.
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: What do you know about it?
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: What is being done, what's the next steps for us, and is there next steps?
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: So where are we at right now with PFAS, turnout?
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think about.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: So this conversation has been around now for for many years.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: Diane Cotter has been you know, I guess five years, right, a husband's a Boston firefighter, it's got to be at least five years.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: And I think about PJ Norwood and Frank Ricci out of out of Connecticut.
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: They had Bobby Holton on on their fire engineering podcast some time ago and Bobby Horton probably said it best when he said we know PFAS is in our gear, so we need to be mindful and respectful of it and wear it when it's needed for structural responses and perhaps not wear it on non-structural responses or when we're doing building inspection or when we're picking up the meal.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: But part of that is so I mean, it's a wicked problem because if we want our members to not wear our gear, well, when it's 10 degrees out in the winter or snow you know that fluff, I know you guys don't in Phoenix, you don't know what that 10 degrees you guys have to work in that.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: So when your members going out on a medical run or something like, what are they?
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: Are we providing them with something to keep them warm or are we allowing them to wear any jacket that they want?
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: Right, so that in some departments.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: That's a challenge.
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: So if they're using it to stay warm, well, that's something that needs to be addressed for sure.
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: But be mindful of it.
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: We know that PFAS is in the gear.
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: We know that.
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: We know that there's research going on.
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: We know that in foam right AFFF foam the researchers understand the pathway to exposure and stuff like that.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: And now there's been changes In the FDNY.
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: It's been a couple of years now that we when I was at the fire academy, in fact, we collected all the two and a half gallon extinguishers of A-triple-F foam and collected all of the A-triple-F foam that we had put it at the fire academy and we paid somebody to um to dispose of it properly, uh, so like, because we understood the risk.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: The risk is still, I would say, to a degree, uh is still being defined when it comes to our gear.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of movement with that and making sure that we don't have it in there.
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: I think we're going to see movement with the NFPA standards, because that's where it starts Right, and I think about the.
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: There's an NFPA podcast out there that Alan Brunicini was on and it was riding the tailboard of the apparatus.
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: It's about a half an hour podcast.
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: It's fantastic and he talks about that.
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: Him and 15 other people were on the original NFPA standard for fifteen hundred were on the original NFPA standard for 1500.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: 1500, the first standard had where you had to wear seatbelts and had that you were no longer allowed to ride the tailboard of the apparatus.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: So once NFPA says you can no longer ride the tailboard of an apparatus, well, good luck getting an apparatus manufacturer to sell you an apparatus that you can ride on the back step.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: So immediately and it says this in the podcast that we went from averaging four firefighter deaths per year to, um, to zero.
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: We were averaging four a year from firefighters falling off of a responding apparatus to zero.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: Uh, and I say sometimes the moments that never happen matter the most.
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: And you know, in the podcast brunicini says that he was getting death threats on it and.
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: But they're like, how can we write the first health and safety standard for the fire service and not include the the you know, the 800 pound gorilla in the room, um, which is, you know, uh, seat belts and riding on the back step of the apparatus?
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: So, um, we're moving in the right direction.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: I know it feels like we're moving slowly sometimes, but, um, in the meantime, we should be, uh, we should be mindful of the gear, wearing it on responses.
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: We should be showering when we leave the firehouse.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: If you finish up a tour, even if you don't go on any fires, you should be taking a shower.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: Wash your hands after every run.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: And I was listening to a podcast with Graham Peasley.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: He may have also been on that podcast with PJ and Frank Ricci, but Graham Peasley mentions about the PFAS.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: So he's the, he's the researcher from the University of Notre Dame, he's the leading expert on PFAS and he says that in the gear that he sampled, that the PFAS was sloughing off of the gear.
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: So he, his recommendation was, in addition to all the things I just mentioned, when you get a brand new set of gear, wash it once first, because any of the, any of the excess PFAS will come off in the wash.
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: Now you should be mindful of your children being in your gear and stuff like that.
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: There's a firefighter photographer who um wrote an article a couple years ago, uh, and she said in the article uh, if you have the black inside liner, the helmet, when you put your kid in that, or the gear, put a black blanket in them as well, because I would never advocate for not taking these photos.
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: But we just want to make sure that we're protecting our family and our loved ones from any potential exposure while we're still figuring out the pathway for exposure from our bunker gear and stuff like that.
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: But be mindful of it, it's the best that we have, so you know.
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: So we just got to continue what we have, but be mindful, protect yourself to the best we can.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: And we also want to make sure that whatever solution they come up with isn't down the road.
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: We're saying well, that solution was more dangerous than than than what we had.
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: And a great example of that is when we look at flame retardants, right when flame retardants started in California, with the law that they had there.
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: And next thing, you know, everything was flame retardant and we saw cancer rates rise in the fire service, stuff like that, and now we've seen some of those being backed off and we've seen changes with that.
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: Just watch the documentary Toxic Hot Seat to learn more about, to learn about, uh, more about that.
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: So we just want to make be mindful that as we eliminate you know, they talk about seven chain, six chain, you know whatever five chain PFAS they say, well, we'll go to a three chain, it's better.
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: Well, I don't.
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: I guess less is better.
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: But we know we got to make sure that we understand what we're talking about and that we have people that are looking at this and advocating for us that we have that.
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: You know that we're going to get gear that best protects us from the thermal and the toxic insult that we're exposed to on the fire ground.
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: And we're not quite there yet.
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: But every day we seem to get closer with the manufacturers and certainly with the researchers and what they've been been doing.
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: But the ultimate pathway to the change on that will be when and it'll be certainly on the next cycle I'm positive of that with with the gear standards for NFPA, because people manufacturers listen to that, because they don't want to be, they don't want to hold the liability.
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: So, frank, I got one more question so along this idea of cancer and the fire service and the preventative avenues that we're kind of looking at, so the FRCE has kind of at its disposal the Occupational Cancer Alliance.
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: One of the things that I know that the Cancer Alliance is looking at is really kind of the behavior and mindset of firefighters, because we tend not to be our own best advocates for our health and welfare and safety sometimes right.
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: So better trying to understand the way firefighters think, the way we view things and the way we view our own safety and welfare, and then trying to incorporate that into, you know, some of these solutions and some of these recommendations and some of this education that you guys are working on.
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: Can you talk a little bit about the Cancer Alliance and then this other survey project?
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so great question, chris.
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: So the Firefighter Cancer Alliance is headed up by the FRCE, the First Responder Center for Excellence, and at our most recent meeting a couple months ago, we set up some different subgroups to look at different specific aspects, and one of them was human behavior, to look at what we could best be doing, because we know a lot of the best practices Some of them I already mentioned here but how do we, how do we take them from the knowledge of them to implementation, where firefighters are recognizing and understanding what they need to do?
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: So that is, that is something that we are looking at.
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: That is something actually I'll be looking at.
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: That is something that we are looking at.
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: That is something actually I'll be looking at.
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: I'll be attending a meeting in a couple of weeks in Pittsburgh that we're going to be working with behavioral health specialists to kind of look at that and say what can we better do to to make sure that we're implementing some of these, some of this research?
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: So, some of this research.
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: There's such great stuff out there, but we've you know that translation to the streets, to the station, hasn't always been what we want it to be, so we have lots of different subgroups on that.
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: What are the barriers to implementation?
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: And we have a great, great committee all firefighters are signing up for that to make sure that all firefighters are signing up for that.
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: So we have an opportunity to best help ourselves by signing up for the Firefighter Cancer Registry.
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: Dr Kenny Fent and NIOSH are heading that up and we have so far the enrollment has been, in my opinion, subpar and we need to do better to make sure that firefighters are signing up for that, because that's how we can best help ourselves and our future selves and our future generations of firefighters.
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: Because this data that they get, it's like going to a fire scene right, and we're going to size up the fire scene, and the information we have sets our strategy and tactics.
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: Well, that's what they're doing right now.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: This is their size up, and if we're not helping them get the information they need well, then they're not going to be able to come up with good recommendations and funding for different things that the fire service needs in the future.
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: And it may not benefit John, you or myself immediately.
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: It might be the next generation, but don't we want to make sure the next generation is better off than we were?
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: And that's what this is whether we're talking about PFAS or we're talking about this cancer registry, career volunteer and especially retired and people who are no longer in the fire service.
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: We need everybody that has been in the fire service to sign up for this so we can get actionable intelligence down the road, and the fact that so few of us have is really disappointing, in my opinion, and we're working on trying to get the message out.
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: They have some videos coming out that I'll be involved with to kind of promote it a little bit to help out.
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: But we got to do better and make sure that all the people, that all firefighters and former firefighters, retired firefighters are signing up, and it's all of this different type of work that's going on that we could do better and be involved with.
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: We will put the cancer registry links in the show notes so people can get to that.
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: And this year, you know it's something that they we, we make sure they have space.
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: We get them to the Hazard Zone Conference in Cincinnati.
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: They'll be back, they'll have a table, they'll be there to register people again this year.
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: So that's the challenge If you don't do it between now and then, at least do it in Cincinnati when you're attending the Hazard Zone Conference, because it is very, very important and get your departments to sign up.
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: They have a new thing.
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: You could be a Gold Star helmet, a gold helmet club or something, if a certain percentage of your organization signs up and do it for yourself, do it for your loved ones, do it for the future of our beloved profession.
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: But no matter how, no matter why, do it Takes a half an hour.
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: When they were doing the beta testing, I was one of the first to sign up for it and I'm like this is painless, half hour, and I was done beta testing.
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: I was one of the first to sign up for it and I'm like this is painless, half hour, and I was done it really was easy.
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: Before we go, we want to do a Timeless Tactical Truth.
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: Timeless Tactical Truths are from Alan Brunicini.
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: They're the nuggets that he left behind and today's Timeless Tactical Truth is Safe and Effective.
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: Must Hold Hands from Alan Brunicini.
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: That was picked before this podcast started, but you started going down that road.
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: What are your comments on that timeless tactical truth, Frank?
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: It's timeless, it will endure, it always will endure, because it's so true.
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: It's just, and we've hit it pretty hard today, and I think the better it all starts and ends with training.
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: The better trained you are, the more effective you are, the safer you are and the better your outcomes will be.
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: The FDNY saves the amount of lives every year we do because of our training, and that bakes in safety.
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: When you train, you bake in safety with it.
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: They're not.
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: It's not an ingredient that you could just take out, and unless you're talking about a brand new firefighter who just doesn't know any better, or the civilian who looks at a building and says I wouldn't go in there Of course you wouldn't because you're not trained.
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: But for the trained eye, they see things that the civilians don't see and they see opportunities and avenues for saving lives, and that is the difference.
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: That's built on training which is baked in with safety.
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it just makes me think of another written quote that he has from command.
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: Safety is the the safest way to do.
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: Things are obvious or are usually the quickest and most effective, and that's got to be the only way we operate.
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: So when we truly actually understand what is effective on the fire ground, we do it in a an expedient manner.
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: We tend to fix the problems fairly quickly and we do that.
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: That's actually the safest position for us to be operating in.
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: So, yeah, this idea that we want to separate safe and effectiveness is not a reasonable, it's not a sustainable perspective for the fire service.
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: I can tell you that.
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: And if we're worried about OSHA or other folks trying to over-legislate the way we do things, well, if we don't take it upon ourselves to start becoming better at the effectiveness and at the safety, then they certainly will come in and start telling us what to do more than they are now.
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: So I think that's an important statement, like the boss always has.
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah and again.
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: So the well-trained firefighter, the well-trained firefighter who is operating at a different level, he's not, or she is not, conscientiously thinking about safety when they're saving a life, it's just running.
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: It's a program that's running, that they understand the way to the way to do it running, that they understand the way to the way to do it.
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: So when I hear people say that they're like they're conscientious of safety, when, when I'm on the fire ground, I'm conscientious of the task at hand, safety is just a program running in in my mind, in the background.
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: That's not in the forefront of my mind.
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: The forefront of my mind is doing my task, which I know how to do because I put in the sets and reps and time to make sure I get it right.
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: So again, we get.
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: It's not theory, it's talking about actual what we're doing on the fire ground.
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: And if you talk to an experienced fire ground commander or a firefighter, they will tell you until it gets deep into an operation or a firefighter.
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: They will tell you until it gets deep into an operation.
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: Right, when we're thinking about a collapse zone, stuff like that, initially we're looking at the scene but we're taking the strategies and tactics and everything that we need to do and implementing them, which safety has an overall consideration, but that's not the top of mind consideration.
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: Most of the time it's just a program running, keeping everything in order, and I don't know if that's the case when you have a young, inexperienced or untrained firefighter that thinks that we can put these in silos and separate them out.
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: It's baked into the cake.
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: If you, if you have a solid recipe for your cake and your department and the FDNY has a solid recipe.
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: Look at our track record.
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: Like we're saving lives every day.
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: Excellent.
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: Well, frank, is there anything that you wanted to cover today that we didn't get to?
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: before we wrap this up, no, I look forward to seeing everybody in uh in Cincinnati at the Hazard Zone Conference.
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: I appreciate you guys, as always, having me on and you know it was.
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm honored to.
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: It's a privilege to serve.
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: Well, it really is, and I've got a whole page full of notes that I I always learn so much from you, man.
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, I really appreciate you taking the time to be here today and to share what you have with the B Shifter listeners.
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: You can go to firstrespondercenterorg.
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: Find out more about that organization, get involved.
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: Frank's continuing to do the great work out there and we do look forward to seeing you in Cincinnati in October.
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: Frank Lieb, thank you for being with us today.
• 58:00
  Speaker 3: Thank you guys Appreciate it.
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: Thank you guys Appreciate it.
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: Thank you, chris.
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: See you, guys All right, that's it.
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we kept it under an hour.
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we're at 57 and a half minutes.
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: So, hey, thank you so much, Frank.
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: It was awesome.
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: And thank you, Chris, for co-piloting today.
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate that as well.
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I know somebody thinks Chris.