Latest / The BioHub - by Avetix / Episode 197 - Eduardo Bravo - CEO of Citryll

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Episode 197 - Eduardo Bravo - CEO of Citryll · The BioHub - by Avetix

0:06
So welcome back to another episode of the Biohub, the
0:08
Evetics podcast. Today, we're excited to be
0:11
joined by Eduardo Bravo, who's the CEO of Citral.
0:15
Citral are focused on developing therapies that target NE TS an
0:19
emerging area of science with the potential to transform
0:22
treatment across a range of serious conditions.
0:24
Eduardo's journey to leading Citral spans years of years of
0:27
experience across healthcare, life sciences and company
0:31
building. Prior to Citral, Eduardo held
0:33
CEO roles at Ebach, Nordic, Nano Vector, Tigenix and Celerix.
0:40
So join us today as we'll discuss Citral's pipeline, the
0:44
advantages and challenges of operating as a biotech based out
0:47
of the Netherlands, and Eduardo's transition from pharma
0:50
to biotech. So Eduardo, thanks so much for
0:53
coming on. How are you?
0:56
Very well. Thank you.
0:56
Thank you for inviting me. Yes.
0:58
It's an absolute pleasure. So let's just start off with a
1:02
little bit about your journey through the field.
1:04
So can you take us back to the beginning of your career and
1:07
walk us through what first drew you into biotech and pharma and
1:11
ultimately how you ended up being the CEO of of Citral?
1:16
So I ended up being pharma by by chance, serendipity is is so
1:21
important in life and and I wanted to be an investment
1:24
banker, but I ended up in a in a small biotech in France.
1:27
I started in Biafra as a trainee in in Paris via Fab Oncology and
1:33
from there I'm moving to what was then Smith Kline Beecham
1:37
that that tells you how old I am.
1:39
So that company doesn't exist anymore after it merged with
1:42
Black Soul and and from there I went after quite a few years at
1:48
at Smith Kline Beecham. I went to Stefanon was at that
1:53
point a small biotech. So that was the first time I
1:55
jumped from pharma to biotech. Unfortunately, the product of
1:59
Cephalon, which was for ARS, didn't make it through.
2:03
So I had to be bought back and went back into into pharma,
2:08
first in Recordati, the Italian company.
2:12
But then I move into Aventis just as it was starting after
2:17
the merger of of Ron Puran, Rorick and HMR. And after a few
2:23
years there I held positions in Spain.
2:26
I went then to to Paris, was then the GM of Belgium and then
2:31
Sanofi acquire Aventis and I was called into the headquarters.
2:37
I was responsible for the integration of all the
2:39
commercial operations on the Aventis side.
2:42
And after a few years there, I was promoted and I became VP of
2:49
Latin America for, for Sanofi. And in 2005, I, I was attracted
2:57
again to the small biotech was the, the option of getting out
3:02
of the big pharma and starting, almost starting a company that
3:06
looked very promising and something completely new, which
3:08
was a therapy. And, and I went there.
3:11
It was only, I think it was 8 employees when I joined and it
3:16
was then a 13 year journey including the the merger with
3:21
Tagenix, taking Tagenix public, getting a product all the way to
3:27
the market. So we got our first allogeneics
3:29
and therapy product approved and then the company was acquired by
3:34
Takeda. So after that, that big stint as
3:39
a sea of Tagenix, I joined Nordic Narrow Vector, a company
3:42
in Norway in the radio therapy space where I was for a year and
3:48
a half. Then was very lucky to be called
3:52
by EQT. At that point.
3:54
It was LSP to lead us back, which was a very new thing at
4:01
that time. We raise a lot of money and for
4:05
two years we look for the perfect candidate to this back.
4:08
Were again very lucky to to find Oculus transacting with Oculus
4:14
was was not easy at the time we're talking 2023, which was
4:19
probably at the bottom of the market for biotechs.
4:22
But we managed to get a very big pipe and took Oculus public on
4:27
that on that transaction. And Oculus is doing super well,
4:31
which shows that a, we, we chose the right company and that it
4:35
had a great team that we're super confident on.
4:39
And after, you know, that, that transaction, I, you know, I, I
4:44
got across Central through Daniel, a quote of BGV.
4:47
And, you know, very quickly, I, I thought that it was a super
4:51
promising company with a very interesting technology.
4:54
And in August of 2023, I joined, I've joined Central.
4:59
So for the last now 2 1/2 years I've been at the head of of
5:03
Central. Jason and just just talk us
5:07
through. So you you obviously spent a big
5:09
bulk of your career at Sanofi. I think going from large farmer
5:13
to small biotech, it can be quite a big shift for for a lot
5:16
of people. What were some of the lessons or
5:19
perspectives did you carry over from big pharma to small biotech
5:24
and how do you think they've influenced your leadership
5:26
style, particularly in, you know, smaller and more agile
5:29
companies? Well, I, I think that I, I was
5:33
always interested in, in managing things a little bit my
5:38
way. And, and that becomes difficult
5:41
when you're part of a very big organization where yours, you
5:44
feel that you're just a small piece of a huge machine.
5:47
So it's very difficult to understand, you know, what's,
5:50
what's the real value of what you're doing and, and what's the
5:53
impact of the, of your leadership or your decisions
5:57
because you know, you feel that, you know, that that piece can be
6:00
change for almost any other piece.
6:03
And, and the boat is, is, you know, so big and it's, it's,
6:06
it's in course. So there's very little that,
6:09
that happens afterwards. So I, you know, what, what I
6:13
took from, from big pharma is this idea that, you know,
6:17
biotech does not have the same means, but there's a certain way
6:21
of doing things and you can do things faster.
6:24
You can try to cut some corners. But if you do the wrong
6:28
experiments or if you have the wrong team or if you don't do
6:31
things properly, it's a very regulated environment.
6:34
You need to do things properly. So one day you have a compound
6:38
that a can go through regulatory authorities.
6:40
And very importantly, that could become attractive to the big
6:43
pharma, which at the end is always part of the of the how
6:46
the biotech ecosystem works. So what I think I brought back
6:50
to this to the small biotech at that point was, was real
6:55
management by objectives and having a very clear idea of
6:58
where we needed to go from the very beginning.
7:02
But it gave me the opportunity of creating a company and
7:05
leading it. I believe very differently of
7:08
how, you know, big pharma is mostly LED, you know, very
7:12
little politics, a lot of agility, a lot of accountability
7:16
of the people pushing the the decisions down in the
7:19
organization and and, you know, making sure that, you know, what
7:23
makes the difference, especially and it's easier to measure in
7:26
small companies is is getting the most out of the people that
7:30
you managed to convince to join you in your trip.
7:33
So it was a very then it was a very long trip.
7:36
I mean, 13 years is is a lot and we had a lot of ups and downs
7:42
and and, you know, biotech. I think that during those 13
7:45
years at the lyrics Digenix, we went through almost everything
7:49
that a biotech can go through on the good and on the not so good.
7:54
But you know, the teams stayed together.
7:56
We managed to attract super good talent that stayed on the good
8:01
times. On the bad times.
8:03
We managed to get a prove a product that was completely new.
8:06
I mean, allogenic cell therapy was unheard of in an indication
8:10
that didn't exist and we managed to get it approved.
8:14
So I think that that shows the commitment and and how how good
8:18
the people I surrounded myself were.
8:21
Yeah, for sure. So just talk us through.
8:24
You've obviously had a number of CEO roles.
8:26
I can imagine before joining Citral, you probably had quite a
8:30
few different options in front of you.
8:32
But what was the sort of initial traction to Citral?
8:36
What was your sort of first impression when you encountered
8:38
the company science and their approach to to inflammation?
8:42
Yeah. Why citral in particular really
8:44
interested you versus maybe taking on another opportunity?
8:49
I think that when you know, you know when you've gone through,
8:52
if you see your roles there, I think a few ticks that you need
8:57
to make sure that you make one is that you understand the
9:00
science. I'm not a scientist.
9:02
So probably any of the very, very small technology advantages
9:11
of sometimes very disruptive technologies that are you know,
9:16
in preclinical or even before preclinical are not where I add
9:20
the most value. I always think that I need to
9:23
think whether I'm going to add real value to the company if if
9:26
I was to join. So Citrus was already in the
9:29
clinic. So that was a big tick.
9:32
Second thing is, is you need to understand that technology and
9:35
that you need to believe with the data you have, let's face it
9:38
is is very limited that it has an option to actually become one
9:43
day a product. And I thought from the first
9:48
time that that I was explained the technology that, you know,
9:51
despite being super novel, it was very elegant.
9:54
I would call it very simple and you know, it was addressing huge
10:00
market. So having gone on those 13 years
10:03
of Digenix to a very sophisticated product that was
10:07
for an orphan indication, it was great to get it approved.
10:10
I mean we got letters from patients.
10:12
I mean you get an incredible amount of satisfaction out of of
10:16
that. But it was an opportunity of
10:17
wow, if we can make this be true, this will have an
10:21
incredible impact on on you know millions of patients.
10:25
So that was super attractive. Then it's the team, you know,
10:30
you, you know that again, I'm a strong believer that you're only
10:33
as as good as the team you have around.
10:37
And again, I had a team that that was super humble, but but
10:42
very professional and that we're really, you know, looking
10:46
forward to having someone that may help them.
10:48
So that was it was a big plus. So another 30 was done and then
10:53
it was understanding how they work.
10:55
The board worked again for, for ACEO.
10:59
Your board is there, you know, to, to, to help.
11:04
I mean, it's of course to ask the tough questions and to make
11:07
sure that you're doing what you should be doing.
11:10
But I, I see the board always as, as a supportive element of
11:14
helping you drive the company. And, and again, I, I met with
11:20
all the board, I felt that it was again, a board that was
11:23
really eager to get me on board. And, and I thought that the
11:26
board dynamics were good and aligned with what I wanted to
11:31
do. So, you know, with, with all
11:34
those 4 ticks at the end, you know, whether the technology was
11:37
to work or not at the end, that's, that's the only part
11:39
that is completely out of our control.
11:42
And you just need to make sure that you, you know, you have the
11:45
money to do the right experiments.
11:47
And then, you know, if biology holds fine, if biology is wrong,
11:52
then you just need to find something else.
11:54
But, but you know, the, the ticks that you can control were
11:58
all positive. And, and I decided to, to join
12:01
in the summer of 23. And I have to say that I, I up
12:05
until today, I think that it was a super good decision.
12:11
Yeah, for sure. And if I'm, if I'm right in
12:14
thinking CITRAL are also backed by fairly well established VCs,
12:18
you have Johnson and Johnson's corporate venture arm Novartis,
12:22
which I guess certainly would give validation to to what you
12:25
guys are doing as well, right? Well, but you're looking at
12:28
today's investors. When we arrived, when I arrived,
12:33
we, we were backed by smaller funds.
12:36
So it was BGP from the Netherlands, it was venture from
12:39
fans, another small, small funds Bio Curie and BOM, which is a
12:44
government funding in the Netherlands.
12:46
So it was, it was a very different shareholder base and
12:51
November of 2024 and we managed to get a very significant and
12:56
€85 million Series B led by John Johnson Johnson DC.
13:02
And we had Novartis Adventure fund as you just mentioned, but
13:07
also Forbion which you know provided the biggest ticket
13:12
given their size and the Pureos. And that was of course having
13:17
two strategics and two very well known funds makes makes a big
13:22
difference. And and I think also the the
13:24
company completely changed during that process of getting
13:28
those funds on board and since we have them with us.
13:35
Yeah, exciting. So just to delve into Citrus
13:39
pipeline a little bit more. So can you just, I guess at a
13:42
high level, just give us a bit of a run through the pipeline in
13:46
general, but what are some of the key programs that you're
13:48
most excited about and some of the indications that you're
13:51
you're also targeting as well? So you mentioned at the
13:55
beginning we have a single asset which is SIT 13.
14:01
It's a monoclonal antibody that targets extracellular traps.
14:05
And you mentioned Nets and neutrophil extracellular traps.
14:09
That was the beginning. We've then discovered that the
14:12
compound also targets with the same potency and affinity or the
14:16
traps that are released by other cells, eosinophils for example,
14:20
so that the the applicability eventually of the compound to
14:25
other diseases will be even bigger.
14:27
And this, this what the product does is, you know, actually
14:33
target those traps that have been released and also those
14:37
neutrophils that have started to release those traps with a
14:41
mechanism very, as I said, very elegant, that has demonstrated
14:46
that we can a stop the neutrophils for completely
14:50
rupturing and sending those extracellular traps back into
14:54
the extracellular environment. So that's a way of reducing the
15:00
amount of Nets that you have in the circulating or in the
15:04
tissue. But most importantly, we, we can
15:07
also, because we attach the antibody to the to those traps
15:12
and then we help them be clear. We form immune complexes that
15:17
are under clear by macrophages. And we have just submitted the
15:20
publication that shows that the rate at which we clear those
15:26
Nets by macrophages is a very significant increase when you
15:32
have the antibody attached to those extracellular traps.
15:36
And also once the macrophage is in touch with the immune
15:40
complexes form in the traps and the antibody, the macrophage
15:44
change in phenotype or in in characteristics becoming more
15:51
macrophage that is inflammation resolving in its in its
15:54
characteristics. So we believe that that helps
15:57
bring the tissue back to the homeostasis situation.
16:02
Again, it's, it's all super cool.
16:05
We've demonstrated almost all those things already in, in, in
16:09
patients. So we have demonstrated that we
16:11
can stop release of Nets. We have demonstrated clearing of
16:15
of of the Nets by macrophages. We've demonstrated that those
16:19
traps are present at the site of inflammation.
16:22
We've demonstrated that our product gets there and actually
16:25
targets those, those, those traps so homes to the site of
16:29
inflammation because they recognize the traps.
16:32
Now the the last, the, the of course the last piece, which is
16:35
the most important one is demonstrating that once you do
16:39
that you actually have a clinical benefit.
16:42
And that is the data that we expect to have in September with
16:45
the first of the of the clinical readout that hopefully will will
16:49
close the loop so to so to say to demonstrate that this is a
16:54
valid target and and again a very nice target to go after.
16:59
Nice. And I know this is quite a hot
17:01
space of medicine that you guys are in as well.
17:03
There's a lot of companies that I see that are trying to get
17:06
into this space or companies that are already doing really
17:08
well that are in this space. If you to look at just the sort
17:11
of general and I never like to use the word competitors because
17:15
I think ultimately what you're doing is for the patients,
17:17
right? But if you look across the
17:19
ecosystem, like who are the companies that are maybe doing
17:22
similar sort of work to you guys in the field?
17:24
Or is what you guys doing is, is this completely unique?
17:27
Is this quite a new area of of medicine that you're you're
17:29
going after? Well, this idea of going after
17:33
after these after neutrophils was already there.
17:36
I mean there's some on some of the chemical receptor products
17:40
that try to avoid the neutrophils going into the
17:42
inflamed area were probably a precursor of the idea.
17:47
But then a few years ago there was this Pat fours, which were
17:50
small molecules that will try to stop this process that helps the
17:56
decondensing of the DNA that usually sorry that at the end
18:01
goes into the rapture of the neutrophil or the OR the other
18:05
white blood cells. And the problem when when you
18:08
target part 4 is that part 4 is is an intracellular and and once
18:15
you're intracellular, part 4 is responsible for this
18:18
citrullination of the OR this process of the decondensation of
18:23
the DNA, But it has a role in many other areas.
18:27
So I think that the path force with all the, you know, the
18:31
excitement that they generated at the beginning, there were a
18:33
couple of very big acquisitions of company that were companies
18:36
that were focusing on on path force.
18:39
I think that have ended up with some either not enough potency
18:43
or when you give enough and you have the required potency, then
18:48
having toxicity issues. So now I would say that the,
18:53
the, the 2 approaches that I would consider more similar.
18:58
It's on the one end that, you know, AstraZeneca has a Part 2
19:01
for a monoclonal antibody that they are targeting in
19:04
combination with anti TNF in RA in a phase two, in a phase two
19:08
clinical trial. And there's a company in the US
19:10
called Neutralis that has a different way of chopping it's
19:13
Adnas. It's Adnas that chops the the
19:17
the traps and, and has demonstrated in at least at ACR
19:23
last year presented one case of a lupus patient with a very
19:27
significant result. Now there's no other compound
19:30
that we believe offers what we do, which is this idea of we can
19:33
stop the release of new traps, something that no one does and
19:38
we can help clear because, you know, neutral is, you know, tops
19:43
the the the pieces, but they don't help clear them.
19:47
So you have still toxic molecules in your circulation.
19:52
And the Part 2 four goes only after the Part 2 four.
19:55
It's an antibodies which once they are out, but again, it's
20:00
not clear. At least they haven't published
20:01
these mechanism we have of again helping the clearance of the
20:06
Nets through the macrophages phagocytosis, so.
20:12
We are the only ones with an antibody that targets
20:14
specifically these extracellular traps and you know, we have a
20:18
very strong IP on the subject. So we are, you know, we're very
20:21
happy with our position. Nice, That's super exciting.
20:26
There's definitely a lot to to look forward to for you guys for
20:29
sure. And just citral company that's
20:32
based in the Netherlands, right. And I guess this has been a very
20:36
much growing a growing biotech hub for a lot of companies.
20:42
How would you describe the ecosystem that's there today in
20:46
the Netherlands in terms of talent, funding and innovation?
20:50
And from your perspective, what differentiates the Dutch biotech
20:53
scene from more established hubs like the US or the UK?
20:58
And are there any, are there any specific strengths that make it
21:02
particularly well suited for companies like Citro?
21:05
Just talk us through yeah, what you were, yeah, being in the
21:08
Dutch ecosystem. Well, what I, what I've seen is,
21:13
you know, if you look at what you need for the sector to
21:17
develop, I think that the Netherlands again takes most of
21:21
them. You know, there's very good
21:23
science with very good, you know, research centres and
21:28
there's also already a pretty nice established ecosystem.
21:31
And I will say, if you look at the, the analogues in, in
21:37
putting all, all of them together, there's many examples
21:40
that come to mind of companies that have grown then be acquired
21:44
or, or, you know, remain independent that have been
21:47
phenomenal success. I think that now the, of course,
21:50
the probably the biggest example is is R genics, but you know,
21:55
Galapagos was a big success. You know, for a long time,
21:58
thrombogenics was a big success. It will, it will go back, you
22:01
know, crucial until it was acquired.
22:03
So there's, there's been many, many companies in that ecosystem
22:09
that has grown. So you have the talent, people
22:14
that have done this before in other companies, which is
22:16
something that is very important.
22:18
And then there is a very good, I believe, public support and then
22:26
there's great capital around. I mean, it's almost incredible
22:31
that three of the largest funds, if you look today at Europe,
22:35
which is, you know, Forbion, but also EQT and, and GILDA are all
22:41
three Dutch funds. So, you know, it's a, it's a,
22:45
it's quite an amazing circumstance.
22:50
Now, it's true that once you go past the, the, when you go past
22:55
the series, say you're, you're, you're looking at the worldwide
22:59
pool of capital, but having local funds that can, that can
23:04
really validate and help you build the syndicates and get in
23:08
touch at the right level with the right funds makes a big
23:11
difference. So again, a little bit of
23:13
everything that you need is there.
23:17
And I think that that's part of this, the success compared with
23:20
the UK. Well, I think that the UK has,
23:22
you can say a lot of the same. I think that the, the one issue
23:26
that happened probably in the UK is this, this availability of
23:29
AIM, which everyone thought was was a big help.
23:32
But I think that it's, it's proven to be not such a big
23:35
help. I mean going public in a market
23:39
that then is not that liquid and with little really specialized
23:45
investors to follow those stories and continue to provide
23:48
capital, capital on a, on a knowing, knowing everything
23:53
basis. And companies have seen
23:56
themselves in deep trouble once they were quoted on AIM.
24:00
So I think that that was actually a break for the
24:02
companies. I think that now no one looks
24:06
anywhere else but to NASDAQ and I think that the UK is coming
24:12
back probably as probably Switzerland as the third, the
24:17
biggest hub of of biotech. Yeah.
24:21
Do you think there's any challenges that come with being
24:22
in in the Netherlands? I know there's definitely a lot
24:26
of upside for being there, but is there any particular
24:28
challenges that you've encountered being in in the
24:31
Netherlands or or not? But for me, it's commuting from
24:35
Madrid to us, which is a very long commuting, but a super, a
24:41
super miners, it's just a personal inconvenience.
24:43
No, I think that I see. I mean, maybe depending on where
24:49
you are attracting people from the US or maybe you know, if you
24:54
compare the, the pool of the talent pool in in Switzerland,
24:59
maybe even in the UK compared to the Netherlands is, is even
25:02
bigger. But when you look at how some of
25:07
these companies that I've just mentioned have developed and
25:09
Acerta was the same park as we are Organon was there.
25:16
So if you have the right compound and you can pay
25:21
competitively, I think that you can attract talent to the
25:24
companies as well. Yeah, for sure.
25:29
And yeah, just from a recruitment standpoint, I think
25:31
we're seeing more and more particularly European companies,
25:34
but a lot of companies in the Netherlands that may be starting
25:37
in the Netherlands. It's obviously a lot cheaper
25:39
than the US to do all of the research and salaries are low.
25:41
And then and then eventually they will go to the US, they
25:44
will list on NASDAQ. So, yeah, I think from someone
25:47
on the other side of the fence, we're seeing that a lot, a lot
25:49
of companies are setting up in Europe and then eventually they
25:52
will look to maybe transition to US.
25:56
Yeah, Well, I've been fighting this for for you know 20 years
25:59
I've been in biotech. But you know, until we until we
26:04
create a unified biotech market capital markets, there's no way
26:08
we can compete with with NASDAQ. And the day you quote in NASDAQ,
26:12
you need to have a certain infrastructure in the US and
26:14
let's face it is 70% of the market for the majority of the
26:18
compound. So is where you have more
26:21
capital is where you have more talent is where the market is,
26:24
is where the capital markets are.
26:26
So little by little, companies as they grow need to to pivot
26:31
towards the US. So it's, it's not a surprise.
26:35
Yeah, for sure. Just looking at the market just
26:39
generally, the past few years have been super difficult for
26:42
both biotech and pharma. There's obviously been a lot of
26:45
layoffs. There's obviously been companies
26:46
that haven't been able to raise funds, companies that just
26:49
haven't been been able to continue.
26:52
What do you think are some of the biggest lessons that have
26:54
been learned over the past few years about how the market
26:57
operates, particularly when it comes to funding expectations,
27:01
timelines? Yeah.
27:02
Just talk us through some of the lessons that maybe the industry
27:05
has learned that maybe they can take forward from, from how
27:07
difficult the past few years have been.
27:10
Wolf, you know, we've, we've, I think we've gone through more of
27:15
these cycles. I'm not sure that we learn
27:17
enough out of each of those cycles.
27:20
You know, there seems to be a moment in which it doesn't
27:22
matter what you do, there's plenty of money around.
27:25
You know, probably 2021 was the 2020-2021 after, you know, all
27:31
these COVID and you know, the huge surge of some of the
27:36
companies like Moderna buy and take Revac just to give 3 in
27:41
which you know, money from from all over the place and, and
27:44
plenty of money from generalist was, was floating into the, into
27:48
the sector. And almost every company that
27:52
had something could go public probably too early.
27:58
And, and, you know, when the capital dries and, and then some
28:02
of these generalist money leaves the market, it's very difficult
28:07
to get financed when you're public and, and you know, you go
28:12
through this period in which you have very little news flow.
28:16
You cannot tell good news. You know, as always, things take
28:19
longer than you expect. Things cost more than what you
28:21
expect. And investors see no reason to
28:24
own your own stock until you're going to go to the next
28:26
catalyst. So then you know you're sorting
28:29
in this limbo of and that was what happened of many, many
28:34
companies that went public in 2020-2021 that really struggle
28:39
22/23/24. And it was only at the end of
28:42
well the end of 24 probably during 25 that some of the of
28:46
the money started coming back. Big pharma became more
28:53
aggressive with some of the M&A, but also because in 2020 and
28:56
2021 valuations were completely unrealistic.
28:59
So I think that there's, there's also a time in which maybe some
29:02
of the companies got offers to be acquired, but you, you still
29:05
are dreaming about your high price of a year before.
29:10
And there was this disconnect happens on the property market
29:13
as well in what, what you think your company's worth and what
29:16
the others thinks your company's worth.
29:18
And, and until you know your company goes down sufficient
29:23
amount of quarters. So you realize that maybe what
29:25
you had at that point was, was not the real value, but value.
29:30
And we've seen a lot of transactions happening in the
29:32
last, you know, 18 months. And I think that does has
29:37
generated again some interest from from the funds to own
29:42
companies that eventually could be acquired by pharma.
29:45
That's the preferred exit for almost any investor in any case.
29:51
But what we see today is that funding very early stage
29:54
companies super difficult. And even on the less early stage
30:00
companies, you tend to have companies that everyone wants to
30:03
fund. So you we're we're seeing this,
30:08
Hopefully we can do one of those.
30:10
But you know, these very large rounds with a lot of people
30:13
interested in joining and a lot of companies struggling to do,
30:17
you know, normal runs because if you don't have a lead, if you
30:20
don't have almost a complete syndicate, people just do not do
30:25
not want to join. So again, having a well financed
30:30
company and and and investors inside with high conviction and
30:35
deep pockets. Yeah, for sure.
30:40
Amazing. This is a question that we would
30:42
always finish with on the on the podcast.
30:44
And I know I wanted to give you a bit of a heads up with it as
30:47
well, but if you were to maybe sit down and have dinner with
30:49
any free people from past or present, who would you pick and
30:53
why? It doesn't necessarily need to
30:54
be people from biotech. It can be, you know, famous
30:57
sports people. It can be actors, it can be
31:01
politicians, whoever you like. But yeah, free people that you'd
31:04
want to sit down and have a dinner.
31:08
With you mentioned that at the beginning and Even so it's a
31:13
very difficult question to answer.
31:18
Probably not very, not very maybe many other people have
31:26
mentioned those names. But you know, one I would like
31:28
to is, is Warren Buffett. I, I, I've always been intrigued
31:32
by his idea of very stable behavior and only investing in
31:37
things that he understands and things like that.
31:39
And I'm a strong believer on some of those principles.
31:42
So definitely will be someone that I will be keen to have
31:49
dinner with. I don't think that I will go,
31:52
you know, back too far because, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm not
31:57
convinced. I would love probably to have
31:59
dinner as well with, with the founder of of the group Inditex
32:04
that owns Tara. He's a Spanish guy called
32:07
Amancio Ortega. He's now 80, whatever.
32:10
But again, he's someone that is starting, started in the 70s
32:14
with, with one small shop in a small town in, in, in, in the
32:18
north of Spain and has built from scratch.
32:22
And I was lucky to be there and visit the, the place has created
32:26
an empire from scratch and has today one of the most valuable
32:31
companies in the world. And if you look at the guy, the
32:33
guy said completely he, he doesn't believe that he's that
32:38
important and he's always belief on the team around him.
32:41
He's kept people for many, many years.
32:44
So I like that idea of how he's run the company so very much.
32:49
And the third one, to be honest, if I could have a dinner like
32:51
that, I would love to have my dad back and have a dinner with
32:54
him and explain to him what has happened and what I've done in
32:57
the last 15 years that he's been missing.
33:00
So that would be an interesting dinner for me as well.
33:05
Yeah, they look 3 great answers there.
33:08
And look, thanks so much for coming on and and helping us out
33:10
with this. It sounds super exciting the
33:12
next phase, the next year, couple of years for Citral.
33:15
So for sure a company, I'm sure a lot of people will be keeping
33:19
an eye out. Yeah, thanks again, Edward.
33:21
It was an absolute pleasure to to catch up.
33:24
No, thank you very much. It was, it was a pleasure.
33:27
And and indeed we have a lot of exciting things ahead of us.
33:31
Thank you.