Latest / Low to Grow / Dhritiman Mitra Investment Banker and Political Strategist: Insights on Harnessing AI for India's Future

Transcript

Dhritiman Mitra Investment Banker and Political Strategist: Insights on Harnessing AI for India's Future · Low to Grow

0:00
Today's guest is someone that I had the pleasure of meeting at
0:03
the Rosina Young Fellows Program alongside the Energy of India's
0:08
premier geopolitical conference, the Rosina Dialogue.
0:11
From our very first conversation, I was struck by
0:15
how deeply he thinks about leadership, technology systems
0:19
and also the feature that we are building in our modern world.
0:24
Jitima Mitra works at the intersection of policy,
0:27
technology and entrepreneurship. From Shaping Youth Focus
0:31
initiatives at BJYM, which is the youth wing of the Baharatiya
0:36
Janata Party where he works on integrating technology and data
0:41
into Indias political projects, to being Co founder of Ave.
0:45
Capital which combines a mid market investment banking
0:48
practice that specialises in capital markets and mergers and
0:52
acquisitions with an AI and data science practice.
0:54
Judgment also helped to scale one of India's largest consumer
0:58
platforms at Intra, which was acquired by Flipkart.
1:01
What I love about his story is how it blends ambition with
1:05
societal purpose and also public service judgment.
1:09
Who do you think will benefit the most from our conversation
1:12
today? If I have to sort of
1:14
contextualize it to my country, people who are touching 2728
1:21
that age, they would be benefiting the most out of it
1:24
because a lot of us still, even though the upward mobility has
1:29
improved for us, they still have this fear if they want to take
1:32
the plunge or not, right? So I really want people in that
1:36
particular age group that it's never too late.
1:39
Maybe you are doing pretty well in your career, but if you want
1:42
to do something that is outside the scope of your career, just
1:46
go for it. Person.
1:47
I started off my journey as a data analyst, my career, right?
1:51
And then I went on to become business vertical lead, business
1:54
vertical manager, business leader.
1:57
Then I did my MBA. Then I moved on to do something
2:00
entirely different, which was into investment banking and
2:02
politics. And I really personally believe
2:05
that there are so many folks who are we're smarter or we're more
2:09
knowledgeable than I am, just that one, you know, that
2:12
decision to take that plunge, if this conversation can help them
2:17
take, I think that will be the objective that I actually wanted
2:20
to have this conversation with you.
2:22
So that will be fulfilled. Quick note before we start, if
2:25
you have enjoyed this podcast and want to support our
2:27
incredible guests, please follow LO to Grow podcast on Instagram
2:32
and TikTok. Welcome to Low to grow, the
2:35
podcast transforming life's toughest moments into
2:38
opportunity for growth. I'm Annie, a focus on authority
2:42
technology founder who's entrepreneurship journey brand
2:45
parallel to a mental health awakening.
2:48
In every episode, I sit down with inspiring individuals and
2:52
delve into how they managed to turn their personal or
2:55
professional challenges into opportunities for growth.
2:59
If you're facing uncertainty in your life, feeling down, or
3:02
simply need a kick of inspiration to keep moving
3:05
forward, this is your space for the honest and uplifting
3:09
conversations that you will want to hear.
3:12
It follows so you never miss an episode and let's dive in.
3:15
It's such a pleasure to see you again.
3:17
How have you been since we were both in India?
3:20
Last one month has been a roller coaster ride that was basically
3:24
a closing month of our fiscal year wherein I Co founder of a
3:28
group that runs two practices, one in investment banking and
3:32
one in AI LED solutions. So that so these are the two
3:37
group you know sort of business practices that I typically
3:40
oversee on a day-to-day basis. I have two other partners with
3:44
me on that and then there is another hat that I wear which is
3:48
of political parties member in their Policy Research and
3:52
training division. I am part of Bharatiya Janta
3:55
Yuva Morcha, which is the youth wing of Bharatiya Janta Party,
3:59
the largest political organization in the world.
4:02
They have like you know active somewhere around 160,000,000
4:05
members that are enrolled on their membership.
4:09
So I belong to the youth division of it.
4:11
So and of April, it was the foundation day of the party.
4:15
We were celebrating the 47th foundation day and I was in the
4:19
core team that was responsible for launching the digital
4:23
learning platform for all the political workers.
4:25
We call them Karikartas. The overall idea is to, you
4:28
know, to have them on boarded on our learning platform and they
4:32
have this 24/7 accessible platform wherein they can learn
4:36
about parties, functioning parties, ideology, governance.
4:40
How do we build capabilities in, you know, the party workers to
4:44
carry out a lot of functionalities That could be
4:47
maybe, you know, election management could be
4:50
organizational building, helping out the, you know, the last mile
4:53
of the society. I think it makes sense to be
4:56
pretty hectic because you certainly wear a lot of hats and
5:00
I also noticed when we were both doing the Rosina Young Fellows
5:03
program, you know you are definitely still working even
5:06
after the program had finished as well going back to your day
5:08
job. So just a man, where does your
5:11
story start? Like how did someone get into a
5:15
position to wear the different hats that you do now?
5:19
If I have to, you know, throw light on my journey.
5:22
So I I was born and brought up in Bihar.
5:26
There is a province in the eastern part of India.
5:29
Unfortunately, since our independence, that has been a
5:32
province that hasn't really accelerated in its growth
5:35
journey. My family had a sort of a very
5:39
middle class background. My dad was a serviceman in
5:42
central bank and my upbringing was very, you know, in that way,
5:46
very sort of orthodox and very protected and regulated
5:49
environment wherein the major goal was to, you know, grow up,
5:54
get a good job, lead a very secure and safe life, have a
5:58
family, and then just, you know, look for your retirement and
6:01
then go about it. And so the the place that where
6:05
I was brought up, entrepreneurship or for that
6:09
matter even anything entrepreneur wasn't really
6:12
something that people aspire to do.
6:14
Having a job in a government role was something that was very
6:17
aspirational. Same sort of values were
6:21
inculcated in my generation as well while I was growing up.
6:25
Then I did my undergrad in computer science, engineering
6:29
from college, which is in the southern part of the country,
6:32
Karnataka, very near to Bangalore.
6:34
It's called Moneyball Institute of Technology there in that was
6:37
my first exposure to the, you know the, I would say the
6:39
cosmopolitan side of things there.
6:41
There are very diverse views on things.
6:45
People actually don't really see only one fixed part of career.
6:49
You know, there are optionalities which people can
6:52
have. That was my first foray into,
6:55
you know, you know, encountering people, having diverse views.
6:59
It was a well spent four years. Then I started after my
7:02
undergrad, I started doing my job.
7:04
But I need to be very honest, even after my undergrad, I was
7:07
not really very sure of what I wanted to do with my life.
7:11
I was doing a job, but that was mostly for the sake of doing it.
7:16
Thankfully, I will. I belong to a family where I
7:19
knew that, you know, sustenance isn't something that not a
7:21
problem for me, but just for the societal sake, I'm doing a job
7:26
for my parents sake, for my family's sake, so that they
7:29
don't say that their son is underemployed or unemployed,
7:32
rather so that that that was my sort of initial journey.
7:37
It was like almost a year in my first company and I was not
7:41
really, you know, liking the job that much.
7:43
And I was sort of reaching to somehow get out of it, but
7:46
unfortunately some new rules came and there was like some six
7:50
months notice period that anyone had to serve before quitting the
7:53
organization. And I remember.
7:56
What job function were you doing that made it have a six months
7:59
notice period? So I was a trainee decision
8:03
scientist. The form was into data
8:05
analytics, analytics consulting, to be precise.
8:09
We used to work with a lot of, you know, Fortune 500 companies
8:13
who are our clients. We used to build their entire
8:16
data system. We'll help them with analytics.
8:18
I personally used to look after something called new
8:22
Capabilities, which was incorporating new technologies
8:27
in the data system for the clients.
8:29
That was actually sort of when I actually had this first
8:33
encounter with something, you know, how to incorporate
8:35
technology into organization. So that actually is helping me a
8:38
lot right now in my current role, which I will of course
8:40
touch upon as we move on. So, yeah, I think there was
8:44
three months down the line of the notice period, I started
8:48
looking out, I started appearing for interviews.
8:50
And I think I, I still remember the number I was rejected in 22
8:56
interviews. There were multiple reasons.
8:58
There were certain issues and all that.
9:00
And that was, I think the lowest point of my career because I
9:03
knew that whatever I'm doing, I'm not liking it.
9:05
And for some reason, maybe I'm not that good enough that people
9:08
are sort of, you know, accepting my candidature.
9:12
I really thought that, you know, I will just give up my this job
9:16
in the private sector and like many others back in my native
9:20
state, I will appear for a government exam and see how
9:24
things look like. I was that clueless that time
9:27
that I would say is the biggest sort of a turning point in my
9:30
career in my journey, which shaped me as a professional, to
9:33
be very honest. That was I got into Myntra,
9:36
which is the largest fashion marketplace in the country and
9:40
is also part of the Flipkart Walmart group.
9:44
So when I joined Myntra, I that was my first, you know, brush up
9:47
with folks are very talented at the same time very motivated and
9:51
someone were very inspiring. So they they were leaders who
9:54
used to inspire with their own work more than, you know,
9:58
bosses. I would rather say that they
10:00
were my seniors, seniors and maybe, you know, elders in a lot
10:04
of sense. They actually sort of, you know,
10:07
held my hand and taught me things how to do my work, how to
10:11
even sort of write an e-mail per SE.
10:14
I spent almost half a decade at Myntra.
10:16
It was a great organization. Only a fond memories about it
10:20
and therein, you know, I actually got a direction in my
10:24
career that OK, this is something I want to do.
10:26
I want to grow and you know, become a business leader could
10:30
be a startup, ideally a startup because when I joined Mintra, it
10:33
was technically a startup back then.
10:35
So that was that was sort of my world view back that OK, I'll
10:39
grow and grow up to become some business leader.
10:42
Then I did my MBA. I did my MBA from I am
10:46
Ahmedabad, Indian minister of Management.
10:48
Ahmedabad is the most premier institution for management in
10:51
the country. That is I think the second
10:55
turning point in my career wherein I actually got to meet a
10:58
lot of people who came from various backgrounds at Myntra.
11:01
What you, It was very, I would say it was a very verticalized
11:05
experience because everyone was coming to the same organization,
11:09
great people, but diversity in views, diversity in experiences
11:13
was not really there. It was a very standard sort of a
11:15
framework engineering, maybe some sort of banner and
11:18
analytics and management. And you then enter the role that
11:22
I was doing. I, I was leading customer growth
11:25
at Myntra. I almost drove around 30 million
11:29
customer acquisition while I was there at Myntra.
11:32
So, but again, but of course there was this lack of, you
11:34
know, different perspectives, people who came from different
11:37
backgrounds. When I joined my management
11:40
course at IMA, that is something that struck me very strongly
11:44
that, you know, there are people who are coming from different
11:46
backgrounds. Some are coming from defense,
11:49
some are coming from a bureaucracy, some have pure
11:52
engineering backgrounds, some have aviation background.
11:57
While doing my MBA, I met Varun who was my batch mate.
12:02
I also considered my mentor. So Varun was already the
12:06
national head for policy and research at BJP Youth.
12:10
That is the interesting part, right?
12:11
That sort of a position. He has come for doing his, you
12:15
know, management and he is my batch mate.
12:17
So I met him and he actually inspired me and I always had an
12:23
interest in politics to be very honest.
12:25
That is something also that you know ties back to the background
12:29
that I have. I come from Bihar, Bengal,
12:31
wherein politics is something which is a dinner table
12:34
discussion every day. You speak with your parents, you
12:37
speak with your siblings, you speak with your relatives,
12:39
friends. No one can take politics out of
12:41
you, even though you're part of active politics or not.
12:44
Politics is the most discussed thing, along with maybe I would
12:48
say cricket, so. Interesting, like what's for
12:51
historical or I guess cultural reason for why politics is so
12:55
omnipresent in Bangor? Till 1911 that that is almost
13:00
like 150 years of the British rule, Kolkata was Kolkata and
13:05
also known as Calcutta. So it was the capital city of
13:08
the country and Bengal had nurtured of active political
13:13
culture in the state throughout, especially in Kolkata.
13:16
Politics was encouraged even in, let's say, at a university
13:19
level. And when I say politics, I'm in
13:21
real politics, not like student council politics.
13:24
A lot of the freedom fighters in independence movement activists,
13:28
they actually started doing this when they were very young,
13:31
maybe, you know, doing their undergrad in college.
13:34
And so that was one culture that was developed in Kolkata pretty
13:36
much that also, you know, sort of owes to the fact that there
13:40
was a very big impact of European culture on the oral
13:43
psyche and mindset of Bengalis. So since 18th century itself, a
13:48
lot of the professors at college were actually Europeans and they
13:52
inculcate the overall idea of, you know, this liberalism, ideas
13:56
of questioning folks. So India by large, before it was
14:00
a very sort of an obedient society, a very, very sort of,
14:03
you know, obedient to elders. We do have this a culture of,
14:07
you know, I would, I would rather say subservience maybe
14:09
right to folks who are senior to us.
14:11
There is one professor Derujio, he was an European professor.
14:15
He is actually called the Renaissance of the Renaissance
14:18
man of the Indian education system.
14:21
And that time it was largely focused on Kolkata.
14:24
So everything ties back to that period.
14:26
Like, you know, because it was so active in the college people
14:30
who passed out of it, they also encourage the new generations
14:33
and that that just, you know, sort of went on and it still
14:36
goes on. Bengal, Bihar, they are very,
14:39
very, I would say, politically aware states wherein every
14:43
single person would have one or the other opinion.
14:46
So you, you won't find anyone who says that.
14:48
Oh, no, I'm not interested in politics.
14:50
And I think the same way, you know, because because of my
14:52
upbringing, I had the same sort of an experience, but I never
14:55
really had any avenues to channel my, you know, enthusiasm
14:58
for politics. It was all being, you know, like
15:02
voicing in inner circle debates or Max posting something on
15:07
Facebook because when I was in my mid 20s, then Facebook was a
15:10
big thing around 2015, 2014. That's a Max I did actually for
15:16
my interest in politics when I joined my MBA and I met Varun.
15:20
So he inspired me. Do you know sort of that you
15:23
need to think differently? You cannot have this mindset
15:26
that run-of-the-mill, like, OK, I will do my MBA, then will
15:29
again join back my work, rise up the ladder.
15:31
Rather think differently and see that if you have interest in
15:34
politics, why don't you channelize that interest and do
15:36
something which actually is tangible in terms of your
15:40
contribution in term, in terms of even the recognition that you
15:43
want to get out of it from your political contribution.
15:46
And then, you know, fortunately at that point in time, policy
15:49
and research team was actually being built.
15:51
So I was one of the first members to be, you know,
15:55
appointed in the policy and research team and that's how my
15:59
political journey started. After doing my MB AI decided to
16:03
go back to doing job. But within a year I figured out
16:07
that some somewhat is not working out.
16:09
I was almost touching 29 that time and I really wanted to do
16:13
something different, didn't really want to continue the same
16:16
job cycle. And what happened was politics
16:18
was actually driver for that decision because while doing
16:22
politics, I can't really do my job, a full time job.
16:25
I would not be very, you know, productive and I would not be
16:30
very honest to whoever is my employer, because there's a lot
16:33
of politics is a very ad hoc sort of an activity here.
16:37
A lot of the times it's very unplanned.
16:38
You just jump into it. You just so I thought, OK, let's
16:41
it's better that I kind of, you know, quit, quit a full time
16:44
professional. Why not start my own business
16:46
And then along with two of my friends, we started my form that
16:51
is called Ever Nile. So yeah, so that is how my
16:53
journey has been so far. Wow.
16:58
I think it's absolutely fascinating that it was an MBA
17:01
that actually catalyzed your transition from business into
17:07
politics. And that's so interesting.
17:09
And I'm really curious because you were saying how it's
17:11
difficult to do politics but also work a full time job.
17:15
When you first started, what sort of activities were you
17:18
having to do for your party on a day-to-day basis?
17:21
When I started, I think there was one big project that we're
17:25
working on. It was building an engagement
17:29
master class app for the youth political workers wherein the
17:34
idea was, you know all the senior leaders, they will come
17:38
and they will record a video session that would be broadcast
17:43
to all the political workers. The thing is, it cannot be
17:46
earned on a sort of a regular channel like let's say YouTube
17:49
channel because it's a very proprietary content that has to
17:51
be specifically done for only the party workers and that to
17:54
youth workers. That was one big project that I
17:57
was involved in. It had both the aspects, the
18:00
content part, as well as it take.
18:02
It took almost a year to just, you know, have that platform
18:05
built. And back then we didn't really
18:06
have AI process a lot of the content drafting that we had to
18:11
do. It was all, you know, manual.
18:12
We had to spend nights. Along with that, there was one
18:15
program which was doing mobilization around the border
18:19
villages, villages which are near the Indian borders.
18:22
The, the whole idea was that every border nearing districts
18:26
and villages, a team of 5-6 folks will go and visit them,
18:31
have a very in person consultation with people, what
18:34
their problems are, what are their responses, what has been
18:38
their feedback so far on the governance, what are the things
18:41
that they need. So it was a very, you know, on
18:44
ground activity, like I was one of the coordinators for that.
18:48
I myself into one of the border villages in West Bengal, which
18:52
is called Taki. It has a Riverside border with
18:55
Bangladesh. So that was a very fascinating
18:57
instance. But again, like when you do such
18:59
kind of activities, right, which require a lot of time, a lot of
19:03
bandwidth, you cannot really do a full time job.
19:08
Well, like for example, this program of, let's say, visiting
19:12
this border side villages, right?
19:14
This happened during the weekdays.
19:17
My party is at 24/7 cross 365 a machine, right?
19:22
It it works every day, every time, every second.
19:24
And for that matter, no one can say no.
19:26
I have my weekdays, I have my office work.
19:29
I can't engage. I tried doing that for a year.
19:32
It was tough. I was doing a lot of hustling,
19:35
side hustling, but then it was and then I realized I know it's
19:38
better to be honest. I have to be honest to one
19:42
organization, either my political party or my employer.
19:44
But then and that is how you know, things happened.
19:47
I think I I would mention about one more program which was very
19:49
interesting was conducting youth parliaments for youth from
19:53
across the country. So all the 36 States and union
19:56
territories, which are basically the provinces, everyone joined
19:59
from all these States and cities.
20:00
That happened in Chennai, one of the capital cities in the South
20:03
southern part of the country. I was one of the core organizing
20:05
members for that. That was my first experience
20:08
when I was meeting people from the parts of our country.
20:12
Different languages, different way of behavior that actually,
20:15
you know, sort of made me realize what a large scale that
20:18
I actually work at when I'm, you know, actively working in
20:21
politics. A lot of the time when I'm
20:23
working, let's say working on an LMS or working on content
20:27
creation work on coordination, we miss out on the scale that a
20:30
political part in India works. It is massive.
20:32
It's a country of 1.41 point 5 billion people.
20:35
So that was like one of the experiences I would really want
20:38
to, you know, sort of call out. Those are really fascinating
20:41
experiences to have had, especially at the beginning of
20:44
your career in politics. I want to come back again to
20:47
that transition point in your life when you had completed your
20:51
MBN and you've gone back, I guess to your job in tech.
20:54
You know, it's a steady job for a well respected, well known
20:57
organization. It gives you the stability that
21:00
I guess your parents would have wanted and that your family I
21:02
would have wanted for you. Then you made the decision to
21:05
essentially create a start up and also work for your political
21:09
party. How did your family respond to
21:12
that? Like, did you have to really
21:13
negotiate with them and really kind of like fight to be able to
21:16
do that? Thankfully my family is
21:20
generally supportive. I think I did kind of upset my
21:23
dad. My dad was a bit unhappy for a
21:26
few months and that is understandable, but no one
21:29
really said, no, you should not do it.
21:30
It is more around why are you doing it?
21:33
Why are you not living a life of comfort?
21:35
When you're getting paid well, you are very comfortable
21:38
trajectory, a set trajectory that you can sort of, you know,
21:41
look at my family comes from a very sort of a middle class
21:44
background and wherein having a job and having a stable life is
21:47
the most important thing. Having said that, no one really
21:50
had an objection, proceed bit disappointed for a few months,
21:55
but didn't really have to negotiate anything, didn't
21:57
really have to, you know, convince them.
21:59
A large part of that also is because the party that I joined,
22:05
that is the party of choice for my family as well.
22:07
So you know, where they're happy that OK, at least the, you know,
22:10
the political support of the political beliefs that is going
22:14
on from generation that has passed on to me.
22:16
So yeah, I think then things turned out pretty well then.
22:21
That's really nice to hear, going back to like the
22:23
relatively short few months of disappointment that your dad had
22:27
with your career change. I feel like in a way, that's
22:30
almost the reaction of parents when they, when they realize
22:34
that they have to rediscover who their child is or has turned
22:38
into because I think, you know, parents, they see so many
22:42
iterations of their child. And I guess it's a child, which
22:45
is adulthood. A lot of quite life changing
22:48
catalytic events can happen in that child's life that the
22:50
parents, you know, wouldn't have 24/7 oversight on.
22:53
And then when the child announces, oh, I'm going to make
22:55
this change, which to the child makes complete sense because
22:59
they've had to like really think about it.
23:00
And then to anyone who isn't that person.
23:03
So to the family members, it can come as quite a big shock.
23:06
I just mentioned that because I think my parents had a similar
23:10
reaction to when I left university with a master's, I
23:14
think the expectation was to say in academia.
23:17
And then I said, oh, I want to go into entrepreneurship.
23:19
And I still to this day have conversations with my dad where
23:22
he said, do you know what? That really surprised me because
23:26
it just showed me how much more I had to learn about you and how
23:30
you aren't who I had always assumed that you were when you
23:33
were the little girl growing up. So I think it's really
23:35
interesting to see the parallels.
23:37
Fair earlier you mentioned about growing up in a middle class
23:40
family where enjoying a life of comfort, you know, that's
23:43
something that is prioritized. What is it about you that really
23:48
made you want to reject a life of steady comfort and do
23:51
something that's very high risk? It is maybe something to do with
23:55
my fascination towards great personalities.
23:57
Right from the childhood, I had been a very avid reader of
24:02
biographies and autobiographies of great men.
24:05
And that is something always, I think right from the time I
24:08
remember, maybe from maybe my third standard or 4th standard
24:12
since the time I've started reading biographies, one thought
24:15
that has always fascinated me is like there are millions and
24:19
billions of people are there on this planet.
24:22
Only few of them actually make a mark and make a mark in a way
24:25
that their names are registered in the annals of history, right?
24:29
That, that did fascinate me right from childhood.
24:31
But I would also be very honest that I actually acted upon like
24:34
almost quite late. I would say I, I took my own
24:37
1012 years of sweet time before I acted on that.
24:41
Otherwise, I would have, you know, straight away jumped into
24:43
something very unconventional right after my undergrad or
24:46
maybe right after my school got over.
24:48
But till my undergrad or till my first 3-4 years of professional
24:52
life, I was following a very sad trajectory.
24:55
But having said that, I always had this maybe a subconscious
24:58
regret that something that I had always fascinated for since my
25:01
childhood that I want to, you know, strive for that greatness
25:05
during my MBA when I, you know, sensed that opportunity that no,
25:09
maybe this is the right time for me to, you know, do what I
25:12
wanted to do back when I was a child.
25:14
And I remember I always tell my friends and my family also,
25:17
especially the juniors and family or my nephews, you know,
25:21
always try to do something so that you have a Wikipedia page
25:24
on your name. So just, you know, sort of
25:27
simplify things. So yeah, so I think that has
25:30
been the case and it has started from fascinations.
25:34
I think it's very honest of you to actually reflect on my point
25:37
that it wasn't an immediate decision, but it was something
25:41
that you had felt for 10-12 years before you actually sensed
25:44
and actually picked the right opportunity to then make that
25:47
transition. And I think it's really
25:48
important to be able to discuss that on a platform like this.
25:52
Again, following on on that theme of making impact and
25:56
taking risks, what's your current view on how youths in
26:01
India can put themselves in positions like you have, where
26:04
they are able to take risks and go after what their younger self
26:08
would have wanted to do? There has been a shift in the
26:13
typical psyche of Indians wherein a lot of new age
26:18
entrepreneurs I, I see and, and everyone sees rather who are
26:22
coming up and trying to build their own, trying to build
26:25
something on their own. There are a lot of startups.
26:27
I think right now India has around 200 K startups that are
26:31
registered with the government. That's a huge number back.
26:34
I think if you, you know, turn the clock back maybe in 2010,
26:39
the number would have been maybe 50 or 60.
26:42
So there has been a shift. But having said that, that also
26:46
is tied to something called upward mobility in overall
26:50
society. 10 years back, a lot of the folks were still trying to
26:55
cross that, you know, that gap, that economic stability gap.
26:59
A generation before me, they were still fighting for the
27:03
stability, economic stability. If I have to look back and say
27:06
my, my father did not really have the opportunity when, you
27:08
know, go after his dreams because he had to look after his
27:13
parents, who are, of course, not doing that well economically,
27:17
right? And then he had a family whose
27:20
responsibility was on him. So for him, it was very
27:24
difficult to, you know, to, to take that plunge.
27:26
I am actually, I would say I'm privileged enough that, you
27:29
know, I have the family backing. I would not say my family is
27:33
wealthy by any means, but at least they have that much so
27:35
that I can take that plunge. OK.
27:36
I, I would not have to, you know, think of a sustenance
27:39
angle per SE. And that is something, you know,
27:42
I can extrapolate to that to a lot of Indians, especially my
27:47
age or the generation after me, like who are, let's say the Gen.
27:51
Z's or Gen. Alphas, their parents, their
27:54
previous generations have already, you know, done that
27:57
hard work to cross that economic upward mobility and now they
28:02
have the cushion. So I believe the 200 K number,
28:07
which is there right now would be 2 million in the next 10
28:10
years, 2 million startups is what I think, right?
28:13
2035, we'll see. That is how people are.
28:15
And of course, you know, this entire AI thing is actually
28:18
going to be a big sort of a push for that.
28:22
But the the mentality has also changed.
28:24
I'll give you a very funny anecdote previously.
28:27
So in India, there is this concept of, you know, this
28:29
arranged marriage, right, wherein families of a guy and a
28:36
girl they meet and then they decide on the, you know, the
28:38
entire wedding and marriage. So previously it was more about,
28:41
you know, people who are having government jobs.
28:44
They were the best suitors, right?
28:46
Then it went down to people at even if not government, if
28:49
they're doing good private jobs, OK, good suitors.
28:52
Now somehow that mentality has not started shifting to is, is
28:56
the suitor is doing any startup? Does it does he have his
29:00
company? There is a platform called
29:03
shaadi.com, the founder of that actually mentioned about this.
29:05
So how does this mentality has changed?
29:08
And I think that will only now we, if I have to, you know,
29:11
think of from let's say an S curve.
29:14
Now we're on the, you know, the exponential growth on that.
29:18
Oh, that's fascinating because I think that also reflects the
29:21
appetite for risk and the risk tolerance across a lot of
29:26
communities in India as well, to see entrepreneurs being so
29:29
highly sought after. Yes.
29:32
When I reflect on it and I think about when I left university
29:36
back in 2019, so just before COVID in the UK anyway, there
29:40
wasn't that much of A startup culture.
29:43
And so to give some context, when I was at university, no
29:45
matter what subject you studied, most people after graduating
29:49
either went to become a lawyer or to work in finance or to
29:53
become a management consultant. But then I think in the year
29:57
that I left, there was just starting to be simmering of
30:01
entrepreneurship. And back then it was still quite
30:03
cool, you know, people for, oh, it's kind of like in the US,
30:06
which is why this all started then now in 2026, a lot of
30:10
really, really incredibly smart, talented graduates are choosing
30:15
to not go for established government or corporate careers,
30:18
but to go straight into building their own company.
30:21
So I think in a way, even though India and the UK are
30:23
geographically apart, I think what you mentioned earlier about
30:26
different generations having different opportunities and then
30:30
providing different foundational levels for their children to be
30:33
able to spring from, that's very horizontal across these two
30:37
countries. So that was really interesting
30:39
to see. And for you, like, did you ever
30:41
regret leaving a stable job? It's, I would not say regret
30:48
that that thought comes. It's a very fleeting thought.
30:50
It mostly comes out of frustration, let's say, because
30:52
I'm doing business, right. So sometimes what happens is
30:56
there are a lot of uncertainties.
30:58
It's not very certain like doing a job, the work that I do in
31:03
innocent banking, right? A lot of things are so uncertain
31:05
that I don't have any control on them, right.
31:07
So a lot of time deals don't go through for a few seconds or a
31:11
minute. Maybe I would have that thought.
31:13
Maybe, you know, I should have just continued doing that.
31:16
Why are things so difficult there?
31:18
This court also said that they they said that things will be
31:20
difficult, but they didn't, didn't say that would be so
31:23
difficult. So, yeah, those are like
31:24
fleeting thoughts, but don't really have the regret.
31:27
It's after a minute or so. I like, no, this is what I have
31:30
chosen. I don't regret.
31:32
I enjoy the I enjoy building a business, I enjoy doing my
31:35
politics. I think even a even a full time
31:39
professional might have those. You know the fleeting moment of
31:43
frustration that why when I'm doing a job I'm just quit.
31:45
So that is OK. I don't really think much into
31:48
it. That's very true indeed.
31:51
And it was interesting to hear you mention uncertainty because
31:54
I guess in politics, I'm also in one of your own business
31:56
Uncertainty, it's something that we will have to deal with.
32:00
How do you personally manage and deal with the really high and
32:04
sometimes quite widely frustrating levels of
32:06
uncertainty in your day-to-day life?
32:09
It was very difficult at the beginning when I started this
32:13
journey of entrepreneurship and politics together.
32:15
Now what has happened is I have learnt to live with it and see.
32:19
The thing is, if there's a success, which is uncertain,
32:23
there are things when when it has happened.
32:24
You know that I know that maybe I haven't performed to my best,
32:29
but still the results have come in my favor.
32:32
So that is also an aspect of uncertainty.
32:34
People typically think of it only in a negative way, right?
32:36
That uncertainty means, OK, the things will not go in your way.
32:40
But then the opposite has also happened, right?
32:44
I'll tell you about the, the, the learning platform launch
32:47
only, right? This launch was supposed to
32:49
happen at 11:30 AM. There was suddenly a glitch at
32:53
9:45 AM, like one hour, 4075 minutes before the launch.
32:58
It was so, you know, frustrated at that time, but suddenly
33:01
started working. And there's there are things
33:03
that happens in tech, right? And I'm like, OK, this is also
33:05
an uncertain was I actually was about to tell my senior that
33:08
this is not going to, you know, work.
33:10
But then it worked. So that was a very happy
33:13
uncertainty for me. But that is how I started
33:15
living. There will be moments wherein I
33:17
think, you know, the things will go worse, but things actually
33:21
come out to be better. So it sort sort of cancels out
33:25
each other. So and then you start living
33:27
with it. And what happens is every day in
33:30
my life right now has so many uncertainties that I don't
33:33
really, I don't really think much about it.
33:36
It has it has been a part and parcel of the life.
33:38
That's about it. I like that answer.
33:41
I think it's something that I can relate to as well.
33:43
And also just to reflect back, I'm not a technologist.
33:47
I don't quote a bit. When I did try to learn a bit of
33:49
coding last year, I think I was really surprised by how
33:54
sometimes a lot of things just isn't in your control, even if
33:57
you are the engineer. And I don't think I quite
34:00
appreciated that. So now, you know, when I hang
34:02
out with friends and they talk about, you know, kind of like
34:04
server down times etcetera, I kind of have empathy and a bit
34:08
of understanding to why that is the case.
34:11
And then, you know, now when I speak with people either in tech
34:14
or in entrepreneurship or even students that are still at
34:18
university or just about to choose different university
34:20
subjects, one thing that everyone is uncertain about and
34:23
gives quite a bit of anxiety, I think is how AI will affect the
34:28
communities and also will affect the talent pool.
34:32
So I wanted to ask you, in what positive ways do you think that
34:35
AI tools could be used to have positive impact in India?
34:40
And in what ways are you afraid about the potential negative
34:44
impacts that AI tools, in whatever form they are, can have
34:49
in India? See, I really feel that AI tools
34:52
if used efficiently and in the correct way, right way rather it
34:57
is going to increase productivity like anything I am
35:00
seeing that day in day out at my organization.
35:03
If I have to talk about my form, we have started incorporating a
35:05
lot of automation in my investment banking side of
35:08
things and in the you know the data science and AI that is any
35:12
which we have very sort of AI facing a business.
35:16
When the IBH cell I'm initially we used to do maybe you know
35:19
only run 2 to 3 mandates at a given time in parallel.
35:23
Now that has gone on to around 9:10 because the speed at which
35:29
we are able to turn on deliverables, we are able to you
35:32
know scale our working capacity with the same team members,
35:35
right and same number of team members.
35:37
That has been fascinating. So that is something I really
35:40
feel that if it is used correctly and it again also, you
35:43
know, boils onto mindset at the end of the day, how is someone
35:47
looking at AI? If someone is feeling threatened
35:50
by AI, then invariably that person is going to fail because
35:53
of because or not because of AI, because that person has already
35:57
sort of, you know, given up and OK, this, this thing is coming
35:59
to take up my job. Rather, it should be seen as an
36:02
aid how it can help us in increasing my productivity.
36:06
I will tell you one one simple example.
36:09
I have a very cluttered, you know folder structure.
36:12
Couple of days back I just used clod Co work to you know
36:15
structure, you know keep everything in structure.
36:18
It started saving 1520 minutes every day whenever I'm sending
36:21
my files, uploading my files. I'm just giving a very small
36:24
example, right? So if you use things in such
36:28
with it is going to increase productivity.
36:31
I will tell you one example of how AI can be very beneficial.
36:35
Tourism is not that structured. Tourism as a sector.
36:38
And if you look at it, India, despite all the, you know,
36:41
diversity in its geography, in its whatever it has to offer to
36:45
the tourists, somehow it has not been a very structured play.
36:49
Our government is actually taking a lot of steps in making
36:53
it structured, making it even safe for tourists or from
36:57
different countries. And AI is playing a big part in
37:00
it. AI is, you know, playing a
37:02
concierge role for that particular sector.
37:06
So that is one example, right? So it is, it all depends on how
37:09
we are able to use the using, you know, the AI or the AI
37:12
tools. The negative way is certainly of
37:15
course, you know, there are a lot of jobs that we have.
37:19
India is a big, big IT services market, right?
37:22
And a lot of the jobs, the entry level jobs, that is something I
37:27
would say a very reputable sort of a job doesn't really require
37:31
a very high proficiency in work, but it was there because, you
37:36
know, someone has to do the job since AI is coming in with all
37:39
this Co work and you know, this publicity computers.
37:43
So there is a possibility then, you know, a lot of this was
37:45
fully automated. The number of professionals who
37:48
are doing this reputable job, it is huge.
37:51
It is not a, you know, small number.
37:54
It then boils down to, I think and and to be very honest, this
37:58
is something I feel that corporates and organization,
38:01
they need to, you know, come up and take up this as a
38:04
responsibility and see how instead of just doing a mass
38:09
firing for cost cutting per SE. This junior most tier of folks,
38:13
how can they use AI to upskill themselves?
38:16
Because if you look at them from a very individual perspective,
38:19
right, they might not be the best people to, you know,
38:23
upskill themselves using AI or for AI because of lot of, you
38:28
know, maybe responsibilities, maybe their own limitations or
38:31
whatever that is right? But if this is something, this
38:33
is an initiative that is taken up at an organizational level,
38:36
that is something the big corporates, big business houses,
38:39
they need to take up as responsibility.
38:42
You know, otherwise it's very easy to, you know, sort of to
38:44
let go of people as a cost cutting measurement.
38:47
But having said that, at the end of the day, this is this entire
38:50
thing as a system, right? If we do not have folks having
38:54
jobs, who is going to be the end consumer at, you know, and then
38:58
how the entire global economy thrives if the consumers
39:01
themselves are, you know, sort of going out of job, they don't
39:04
have money. I am very active on Twitter.
39:06
Somehow I don't see that voice. Who is talking from this lens
39:11
that everyone is talking about? You know, the AI will automate
39:14
things, will increase efficiency and all that.
39:16
But this part also that needs to be taken up or taken up.
39:19
And at an industrial scale. It cannot happen at an
39:22
individual level. Because I feel that an
39:24
individual level, we are not that powerful enough to contest
39:28
against the power of AI, then it needs to be taken up at a big
39:30
level. That makes sense.
39:33
I think it's you need the critical mass.
39:35
So then what role do you think that governments have to play in
39:40
in? I guess I've up skilling the
39:42
junior software developers or perhaps moving them to do
39:46
something else. It is about expanding the scope
39:50
of work. I can give an example for my
39:53
organization since we have started incorporating a lot of
39:57
IB work in IB delivery. It is not that we have let go of
40:02
our analysts or our folks, rather what we have asked them
40:06
to, you know, if you're doing a delivery work, why don't you use
40:10
let's a clot or a ChatGPT to upskill yourself and become a
40:14
deal originator as well, wherein you yourself reach out to folks.
40:18
You have something, you have a tool to create content for you.
40:21
You have a tool to, you know, make an entire script on how do
40:24
you, you know, speak to businesses, right?
40:28
You have all the, you know, capabilities that an
40:30
organization can provide. Now you need to upscale yourself
40:32
and, you know, expand your horizon on how do you
40:35
contribute. Everyone is now seeing some sort
40:38
of deal origination that was not possible a year back because
40:41
people were spending a lot of time in delivery.
40:43
And we are, you know, a small organization, if we are able to,
40:46
you know, instead of just letting people go, wherein, you
40:50
know, working capital is always a challenge for us.
40:53
We have taken this decision consciously that, you know, if
40:55
you are using AI, we are using it before constructive work and
40:58
we are using it for upskilling our workforce so that their
41:02
horizon increases knowledge horizon, their capability
41:05
horizon. Then why can't a big
41:07
organization do that? Whatever has happened in the
41:09
last 50 years in the world of technology for the last
41:13
thousands and thousands of years that haven't happened.
41:16
So it is not like there is a limit to it.
41:18
We can always see how we can have people use their time and
41:21
all to bring up new avenues, right?
41:24
And then, then there is this junior, most people who were
41:28
doing the reputable redundant job, they can now bring into the
41:31
new sphere of work. So that is how we can sort of
41:34
protect them as well. I like that.
41:38
So kind of like each individual making themselves into a self
41:40
driving a machine that's continuously learning and you
41:44
know, and using the latest tools to be able to contribute more,
41:47
whether it's to their own organization or whether it's to
41:50
the public service as well. And for you, what is one thing
41:54
that you believe will allow more people to have better mental
41:58
health? I think sharing, sharing with
42:01
people, sharing with closed ones could be you know, your partner,
42:05
your spouse, your parents, but don't keep keep things in your
42:10
mind for a lot. I personally used to do that a
42:14
lot. I am a bit embarrassed to say,
42:16
but I have this thinking that why should I share my, you know,
42:19
whatever, you know, whatever mental goals that I'm going
42:23
through, I am strong enough. I should not let people see the
42:27
mental weakness. What do people think of me?
42:29
Maybe it is a taboo If I tell people that, you know, I'm
42:32
really struggling at this point in time, I really need some sort
42:35
of if someone can just come and say no, you just keep on doing
42:39
things, things will be better. Unfortunately, I have my wife,
42:43
my good friends who are always there, you know, and I just keep
42:46
all of them. Some this is something that I'm
42:48
really struggling on. There's something I'm not
42:49
enjoying. So I talk, I don't keep things
42:52
in my head. And it could be as simple as
42:54
let's say if if someone spoke to me in a tone that I did not
42:57
like, I would not, you know, sort of keep it to myself and
43:01
would replay that situation again and again.
43:04
And you know, that Once Upon a time, what happens?
43:06
You start blaming your own self that OK, maybe I would have done
43:09
something that way, that that's why that person spoke to me in
43:11
that if you didn't like, you just say that, hey, listen, I
43:14
did not like the way you spoke. Is there something, you know, we
43:16
can sort of work on it and how we can ensure that I have done
43:19
that, that sort of conversation as well.
43:22
So share, open up, talk, talk about it.
43:25
I think that that helps a lot. Thank you so much for sharing.
43:28
But I think they were really relatable points and those so
43:31
some really action points that hopefully can help someone who's
43:34
listening to Load to Grow. It's been such a pleasure to
43:37
have you on Load to Grow podcast.
43:39
Thank you. Thank you so much Annie for
43:41
having me. It was really wonderful speaking
43:42
to you and looking forward forward to seeing you in India
43:45
soon. Yes, definitely looking forward
43:48
to that. Well, thank you very much.
43:50
Thank you. Thank you for listening.
43:53
You're excited for the next episode.
43:55
Follow Low to Grow podcast on Instagram and TikTok to keep in
43:59
touch with the new announcements.