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The Postpartum Psychosis of Lindsay Clancy · Nurtural Disasters

• Lisa: Hello and welcome to Nurtural Disasters. This is a podcast for those of us with toxic or emotionally immature parents. We might not have a bunch of credentials next to our names, but we do have PhDs from the Hard Knocks University. Basically, we want this to be a validating space for adult children of parents who had no business having children. ⁓ Ken: Welcome to Natural Disasters with Ken and Lisa. Hey Lisa. Lisa: Hey, what's up, Ken? Ken: not much. You know, got sick for a while. do I sound different? Lisa: No, you sound fine. Ken: Like a lower sexier voice. Lisa: sure. Ken: You ever watch that episode of Friends where Phoebe gets a cold and then she gets like a like a sexy new voice when she sings Smelly Cat? Lisa: I did not. I know people love Friends, but I've only seen like clips of it. I'm not i I've I haven't really seen like a full episode. th parts of it were funny, but parts of it I thought were like, okay, that's kinda silly. But it wasn't for me. But anyway, you have a that your new sexy podcast voice, so You know, well taking advantage of that and talk about something that's Ken: Yeah, sure. Lisa: not sexy, which is mothers who kill their children. Ken: yee yikes. No like it this is like a something that we hear a lot of where parents just somehow it's like the old stereotype where the parent you know, like the mom drowns her children in the bathtub. Except now this is actually real. Lisa: I made a actually this has been happening forever. it's just more documented. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: my god, with the Lindsay Clancy thing that's going on. I haven't had a huge chance to like do a deep dive. Like some people are just obsessed. But from what I know, I'm more interested in like what the experts have to say about it. And there was this one Psychologist, I think it's Dr. Honda. He said that actually, like what they call is it matricide when they they kill their kid. Ken: it's filicide when you kill your kids as a parent. Lisa: fill aside. Ken: Yeah. Mattresside is when you I don't know, kill Lisa: Yeah, you kill your mom. Ken: you kill your mom with a mattress. Lisa: Yeah, with the mattress. okay, cool. Ken: Sure. Lisa: Cool. Well, I I guess philosophy is pretty common. well he just said that because in, you know, more of like the caveman times when, resources were scarce, it was pretty common for moms to kill their kids because there just isn't enough. but they don't kill the but parents they don't kill themselves because they can potentially have more offspring. But I guess it was pretty common back in history. Ken: Well, I guess i Lisa: So I guess Ken: I guess if you try to equate it with if you just you hear you've heard of like animals in the animal kingdom maybe eat their young or, you know, leave their young if their young can out make it. It's stuff like that. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: you would think that humans after a while that you we would 'cause we're we like to say that we're different, that we would be like immune from that. But I wonder is there's some biological thing that's built within us that, you know Eat your child, I guess. Lisa: Yeah, I guess moms they don't eat they just kill But yeah. Ken: Yeah. Do you remember like Zeus' dad like eating his children? Lisa: yeah? Ken: So it's but i it's I'm pretty sure it's been documented throughout history. It's you know, dad eats kid, one of the kids escaped and then kills dad, you know, it's it's always been like a thing. Lisa: But they can't claim, postpartum psychosis, postpartum depression. Ken: Yeah, the postpartum psychosis thing, it's like I've actually never heard of that before. Have you? 'Cause it's it's it's relatively rare. It's less than point what. One out of like a thousand maybe people might get that. Like people that that give birth have that. Lisa: It sounds rare. I don't yeah, I hadn't heard of it before the Lindsay Clancy. Clancy Clansey? Whatever? Yeah, so Lindsay. Well, they can't say Lindsay because people think Lindsey Lohan, so the cl Clansey lady. Yeah, she's that's that's what she's claiming. And I think there isn't a whole lot of information about that. I was searching it on YouTube and what's interesting was that there's a actually a documentary by Louis Thoreau. Do you remember his red pilled called Manosphere Ken: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Lisa: documentary on Netflix? Right. He actually did a documentary about that recently, less than a year ago. But it was like postpartum not this not just depression but also psychosis, mental illness, etc. in the UK. I did not know this because I've always wondered, why don't women get a lot of help? For their own mental health issues w after giving birth, right? Mm Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: moms, they're just kind of it's I maybe in this country it's an old school mentality of like, just have the push the baby out and go back into the farm, kind of a thing. But in the UK, they have these actual units for women who are experiencing mental health issues after they've had a baby, and they get to live with the baby and they get treatment. And this is, I think the NHS, you know, they're government insurance pays for all this for them to stay with the kid and they they talk about it and he interviews the women in these units. it's a very interesting documentary. It's free on YouTube. I urge everyone who's interested and curious about postpartum depression, psychosis, whatever. So he interviews these women and he has a way of interviewing that humanizes them. he interviews one woman, I remember he says that he asks her about her own psychosis and she said, I literally thought that killer clowns were gonna come into my house and kill my family. Like it felt she said it felt so fucking real. A it was such an overwhelming feeling. And they they he interviews all these women and the common thread, not all of them but most of they had hi a history of mental illness, whether it was anxiety, depression, etcetera. One mom, she had been essayed by someone actually like a couple years prior. So giving birth triggered it, because people staring at her nether regions while she was giving birth and stuff, it triggered a really horrific incident for her. And it caused the postpartum depression and psychosis. It's crazy. So w remember we talked about Hayden Penateer, and she had her own mental health struggles. And then she had the postpartum issues. just like Hayden, who had these a really horrific, very traumatic birth, you know, Hayden, she lost a ton of blood after she gave birth. It was almost a near-birth death experience. Women who also had difficult birthing issues, they also experienced postpartum depression. So you know, the documentary is less than an hour long. So Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: It really gives insight and I thought, why can't we just have this in the States? 'Cause it would be so beneficial. Someone like Lindsay Clansey would have benefited from something like this, assuming that what she says is true. we'll talk about that more about that later. Ken: yeah, it's the thought process that you're a mother and y you're supposed to give birth like kind of willy-nilly. I don't wanna say willy-nilly, but it's it's back to being mother, right? w when you nursed a child. But I don't think we there's enough like kind of dialogue about just what happens to a woman, or at least her mental state as well as her physical state when she gives birth to a child and what happens afterwards, right? at least for the postpartum psychosis thing, and how it is like postpartum depression and how it's kind of like it's it's a lot of the predictors could come from, you know, past mental issues, some mental health issues. I know for like Lindsay Clancy, she was I think she was diagnosed bipolar, I'm not sure by before or after She was she gave birth. there was something there already. So Lisa: Mm. Ken: it's just some topic that's I guess not really heavily talked about, right? Lisa: No, absolutely not. And I think because our society has this view of motherhood, it's it's a very romanticized view of like you have this baby and you fall in love with it and you nurse it and everything's just rainbows and butterflies, but it's in reality it's not. And it you know it reminded me of something that happened like okay, so my friend had a baby three months ago. Beautiful chunky baby. I'm I show I show you the picture. She's Ken: Yeah. Lisa: a chubby little thing. So cute. So she had the baby. The next day after having the baby, she was discharged from the hospital. And I was like, that's it. Yeah, Ken: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's that yeah, that sounds normal actually. Lisa: yeah, well, yes. Exactly. This is normal. And I and I'm like, and I asked her why. And she said, because our insurance will only pay for the this and the next day. Because if if I stay longer at the hospital, it's literally hundreds of dollars a day, like somewhere between like five hundred to a thousand dollars a day. You know, you don't know because the insurance fights it, So it kind of forces you to leave early. So the insurance doesn't have to pay for it. But guess what happened? After she was discharged, it was a Thursday. She was discharged. I was supposed to visit her over the weekend to visit the newborn. I was so excited and I get the the text message. it's not a good weekend. The baby's jaundiced. We have to take her back to the hospital. There's all these issues, and I'm like, ugh. And I I was just so excited, but I I totally understood. apparently it's a normal thing for a baby to be jaundice. However, if she had stayed at the hospital, you need to you need to stay longer so they can monitor that stuff. Even though it's normal for a baby to be jaundice, you have to stay longer to make sure it doesn't turn into something that's more severe. But Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: the way it is, it the insurance companies are super, super myopic. So They want you out, they're trying to save money, but then they had to take the baby back to the hospital and run all these tests to make sure there was nothing wrong with it, which I'm sure was not cheap. it's so short sighted, right? Ken: Yeah, it's almost like as someone that's worked in like a couple hospitals, it's kind of like the, I don't want to say it's like a conveyor belt kind of system where it just kind of like once you're done, let's move on to the next one. We need this room for someone else. And Lisa: Yeah. Ken: it's always it's almost like a running joke, unfortunately. and a lot of it, I think it's in America is just there's some issues with healthcare that, people have always have dialogued about, especially over the past 10, 20 years. there's like a disconnect with just how our healthcare system works along with just how insurance charges things, right? It's it's it's a very odd system. I'm not by trade as a biller at the hospital, but I know of things where you know certain charges will just be astronomical, right? And then kind of the goal from the billers at the hospital is to give you a like a high value. charge and then the insurance kind of negotiates it down and that's a whole that's that's all the whole dance going all the way to the end where you where you you end up being the person that's like, yeah, this is mostly covered, you pay out of pocket this much, right? And then worse come to worst, you get to take to collections. And a lot of it is that's this is why when you go to the hospital in America for like a issue or a hospital stay, a lot of people get blindsided because honestly, it it's like the worst case of price is right, it Except nobody's even close because logically, like all the stuff they charge you doesn't make any sense. And there comes the disconnect, right? you hear stories about them charging you what $15 for a bottle of water at the hospital. That is semi-true. If there's certain things where it's Lisa: Yeah yeah. Ken: just odd billing, and you're like Why do they do this to each other? It's like, nope, it's capitalism. That's I think that's really what it is, right? Lisa: You know what, the reason I'm say I mentioned this is because we desperately need, not just in the UK, where they have this and they've implemented this system, these psychiatric units for for new moms. And they actually give parenting classes and everything. Teach it they teach them how to parent their own children and stuff, which is incr I always wondered why didn't we have something like this in the States? And then when I found out they had it in the UK, I literally just found this out like two days ago when I saw this documentary. And I was like, this will never fly in the States. Ken: Well it's like a pro it's like a proactive thing, right? It's you know, th they probably saw it as like a ongoing problem. So why not, do mitigation? a lot of like healthcare, you have to think about it in a way where it's like the more you take care of something and mitigate against it, then the you know, like the stakes are less worrisome, right? If you take care of your health or even your mental health. you're not gonna have blow up where it's just gonna be a surprise, right? You're gonna end up in a hospital and then have have to have surgery because you've been taking care of yourself. So you're taking like maintenance steps. That's not like Lisa: yeah. Ken: a thing in America. A lot of it's it's it's odd, right? There's like a disconnect. Some people just really are into, self-help like like Maha kind of things. you know, take care of their health. Like like we in America, I think anybody that lives here or at least have friends that live here. know about like our like wellness industry. There's so much talk about wellness, you know, vitamins and stuff like that. People use so much of that supplement stuff in America. I I feel like even more so than a lot of like first world countries. but there but then you have to disconnect where there's a bunch of people that don't take care of their health in America. So it's like you get both. It's it's a odd thing, right? You have people that are overly conscious about their health, probably people that you know, have the means to do that. And then you have people there, you know, they go to hospital once every like how many years and that then the and most of the time they go to hospital, they're gonna die at the hospital. And that's really what the the dichotomy of the American healthcare system and the the way people view health in America. Lisa: Yeah, I'm just hoping we're not getting too off topic because when it says documentary, I thought there's no way in hell that insurance companies would cover something like this. It's unfortunate because it's much needed. It sucks. Ken: Yeah, I will. Yeah, but because because we're we're to think about it, it's like what for Lindsay Clancy, she had all those issues. And honestly, if you read about just how the progression of her giving birth and then all eventually killing her children, there's like a long thing where she seeked help, right? She seeked a lot of help. But honestly, there's I don't think there's just enough knowledge about this, maybe she's Lisa: Yeah. I agree. I I totally agree. Ken: Yeah, maybe maybe maybe maybe it's coming from her bipolarness, which is which is very scary. I always think about people that are bipolar and I always wonder, man, what happens when they have kids? And there are people I know that their parents are bipolar, and I was like, I wonder is their kid gonna get it? And it's honestly a thought I have, and yeah, I wonder about myself, it's like, yeah, I have all these mental issues too. I wanna have a kid and give it to them. Lisa: Well 'cause I was just studying about postpartum psychosis, which I didn't really know anything about. Like you said you didn't know either. And I saw this documentary. I was like, the Manosphere Director? okay, cool. And then when I saw it, I was like, this is an actual thing? Wait. So all this Talk about like moms who kill their kids and like with a postpartum psychosis. They could have actually gotten like real help. know, when we talked about the hidden pinateer, I she was a woman of means. Obviously, she had all the money in the world and resources, and she still suffered greatly. I'm just wondering, do you think something like that would have helped her? I it Ken: I wonder is it just a lack of expertise, right? maybe just our healthcare system just doesn't acknowledge that or just it's just not a well things start well research starts at like zero, So until it becomes like a topic of interest, who's studying that, who's knowing that? I think there's a lack of like understanding about this even, even now. I know that you suggested that the UK seems to have a more kind of like proactive approach about this, but in America, honestly, if you ask someone on the street postpartum psychosis, they're gonna be like, What is that? Is that made up? Lisa: Yeah. Yeah yeah, that's why the whole Lizzie Clancy thing where it's like she's making it up. You know, it's very divided. Ken: Well I and and yeah, and and and the interesting thing is it is divided and it's a lot of it is about maybe it's almost like a man versus woman kind of thing, it it's a tough one because everybody's seemingly picking sides. Some people just are claiming that she knew what she was doing. she's getting a lot of like support from other people that know her plight. Like she she got a Pretty, I think she got almost a million dollars from like a GoFundMe, right? And then some people thought it was bad optics to support a killer like that. But I think a lot of people that supported her cause was there's some sort of understanding there. It's like I get what you're going through. it's unfortunate Lisa: Yeah. Ken: that it it takes like something tragic in order for someone to or for all of us to take a look at it to find out what's wrong. Lisa: I know. It it has to get really, really bad for people to take action. Yeah. I know. I know. Ken: Well, that's a lot w over everything, right? That's like it has to be catastrophic in or people's like, this is this is a problem. But it's definitely a problem. Like did you read like some of the stuff that she went through? Like it wasn't like she didn't seek out like help. It's almost like she seeked out help. And, you know, tried everything, it's like nothing helped her. And it's almost it's almost sad watching someone just go from, Lisa: Mm. Ken: you know, optimistic, loving her children to, I'm gonna kill my children. Because if not, it it it it's like she went through like a process was like, how do I kill myself? it's it's hard to get grasp. I Lisa: Yeah. Ken: think a lot of people have ideas of what it could be, but we we all don't know. We're just guessing what it could be. Lisa: Yeah, we we weren't there. We don't know what's inside her head. Maybe she's making it up. And I I noticed there's a lot of projection, especially with a Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: lot of these influencers and people on YouTube that who are saying, my mom was a Lindsay Clancy. She would have totally claimed insanity or whatever, and she always threatened to kill me and etcetera. It it Ken: Well yeah, it's it it's but it's it's hard to to do that, right? 'Cause you're like you're trying to project your own experiences with maybe like abuse a parent like that. for all we know, we can't ask the children because they're already passed away. So it's like it it it it doesn't seem like she maliciously treated her children in any kind of like malicious way. But there's you've heard there's like conspiracy theories too. Like some people have thrown out there that maybe she's taking the fall for the husband, made the husband do it, did it. man, it's it's it's it's really like a topic where, you know, in a couple years when this becomes a miniseries, it's gonna be a good watch. But this is this is absolutely insane, like the stuff she went through. a lot of it's mental health Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: mixed with you know, postpartum like psychosis and depression and all those things I don't know if you you could t call her a ticking time bomb, but it's it does it didn't look good. If the all the stuff sh they c she was claiming and her defensive team was t claiming were true. Lisa: Yeah. Y it's funny you say there's a mini series. the yes, there will be a mini series. yeah. Ken: And we know we know we know there will be. Come on, we'll we know. Lisa: A lifetime. Well, lifetime is not a thing any is it? I don't know. but I could see that on Netflix. maybe one of the jurors will write a book. The one who held out for the mistrial? I guess Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: he was a black dude and there's like all these TikTokers were like, He's holding out for this th and I'm like, What? I I haven't studied too much about it. I'm trying to I'm just trying to be really neutral, you know? people are saying, well she planned it out because her husband was he went out to go get something so she knew she had X amount of time while he was gone to kill the kids and blah blah blah. And that shows premeditation. Okay, maybe that's true. I I'm trying to be as nuance as possible and see all the evidence and Ca i c you know, 'cause I myself, you know, having a toxic mom, I don't think she would have ever killed me because she was too lazy? Ken: He's too lazy to do it herself. Lisa: Yeah. Probably. Yeah. I yeah, 'cause y you know how like Mexican moms they see their daughters as like competition well n that's not fair, not Mexican moms. Latin American moms. Boom Latin American boomer moms. Just to be more to be more specific, like I'm not generalizing. Ken: keep adding to it like more specific, please. More specific. Like only let's let's let's offend only one specific group of people. Lisa: Yeah, well Where it's it's like What was I saying? yeah. Yeah, it but you know, with my mom, she was she was a lazy person. So that's why she never learned English. She would sleep until noon, would get mad if she had to like drop me off in school. That's why I was always late, always forgetting to pick me up from school. Like that level of laziness, you know? So, like never cooked, just So maybe Ken: Yeah, but Lisa: that's better than having a Lindsay Clancy mom, because they there was like accounts of her being a quote unquote good mom or attentive mom. And I was like, maybe she was masking so hard to the point where she was like, I can't take it anymore. I don't love these I don't I hate my fucking kids. I'm gonna fucking kill them as soon as my husband is out. I don't know. It damn, there's just so many conspiracies like you were talking about. I don't know what to think. I feel like I d Ken: Yeah. Yeah. Lisa: I just don't know what to Yeah, what do you think? Ken: Yeah, so to dive deeper into what her kind of medical diagnosis was or her trajectory or like the medicines she was taking. This is good here, Lisa, because I've taken a lot of these pills. So I'm gonna just describe it to you. So pretty much like after after she went on maternity leave, like she started getting I'm assuming she getting started getting prothoronic anxiety, which is something that we don't even think about either. But I think I think it might be like an offshoot of generalized anxiety disorder. So she she began Lisa: So, Ken: seeing a doctor. I'm assuming a psychiatrist. I'm not too sure about the information about this doctor. but pretty much she was prescribed like Zoloft, which is, you know, like a very common antidepressant that's well known. And then seemingly her anxiety was said that it returned. it And it worsened after like the birth of her like third and final child. Like it just got really bad. so eventually she she went back to see a psychiatrist named Jennifer Tufts via telehealth visits and she was diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder. So pretty much it allowed her to extend her maternity leave because she was not of sound mind and she wasn't able to do it with the, you know, standard time allotted. in America with I don't know how much the maternity leave is, I'm not too sure at the moment. But she was taking Zoloft at the time. She was like, it's not working. And then she was taking Advan, you know Advan. Something I take and that's real it's like something that's like that's prone to substance abuse. It's almost like a tranquilizer effect. It it came a point where she had really bad insomnia. And as someone that's had really bad insomnia where there was a period of time where maybe almost like two weeks straight. I was sleeping maybe one or two hours a night, and I swear I it made me go crazy. And it just makes you understand that. When you lack sleep, you really do go psycho. It's it's such a big part to, you know, having your mind turned off and rest. So Lisa: I turned off and ran. Ken: I could just imagine, because she had all that stuff. And just talking about that is like that's only like a little bit of what what she took. Like she ended up going what? Trazodone, Kalanopin. It's like anything you could think of that someone was going to take. From their psychiatrist f for anxiety disorder or some sort of depression, she got it. So it wasn't like she didn't try anything. She almost tried everything and it didn't work. So I wonder what happened there. And mm-hmm. Lisa: You know, it's interesting that you bring up the lack of sleep because that's another thing in the documentary where they say lack of sleep, as a new mom, not just after the baby's born, but like before the baby's born, you know, when you're going through labor, you know, you're not sleeping through that. Sometimes it's like Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: hours, 10, 12, 24 hours, You don't know. The lack of sleep. That mixed with more lack of sleep after the baby's born. That itself, you know, you talked about how it caused a lot of issues. I've had jobs where like it started super early and they had like long hours and You know, it's funny because they say, when you're driving and you've had lack of sleep, they say it's Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: comparable to being drunk. Because you and and it's true because I remember I was taking a a coworker home after like working these long 12 hour days and lack of sleep, and she she told me, Lisa, you you just passed the red light. And I was like, I did? She's like, Yeah, you did. You didn't notice that? I'm like, No, it was like, I could tell from your eyes that you're tired. And I'm like, yes, I am very tired. I haven't slept in like four days. Maybe I've had like a few hours of sleep every night, but I haven't had a full night's sleep. And she's like, Yeah, you know, I I didn't realize that I was basically a drunk driver. and I was being like, Yeah, I'm driving my coworkers home from work because, they have to take the bus. And, you know, I didn't want him to like wait an hour for the bus, whatever. And I guess people were like a afraid of being in the car with me because I was being reckless, but I didn't realize I was being reckless. And I looking back at it, I'm like, fuck, I was so embarrassed. And it wasn't my intention, but it w it was just I was just my God. And think about it, I'm like, my God. so that compounded with the hormones and everything else. You know, like they say it's a perfect storm of fucking psychosis. So if that's what Ken: Yeah. Lisa: happened to Lindsay Clansey, I can see that and they're just giving her pills instead of being like, Hey, wanna get some sleep, you know, we have some help over here with let me help you out with the kids, you know, some sort of government help or with family members, whatever. Ken: And and honestly, like I don't know a lot of the relationship between her and her husband, so I'm not sure how much of a father he was to the children, like how how much he was able to help with her or at all. So that could have been it too. Lisa: It could possibly be. Ken: Like I ha honestly, like w w when I read like about the case and like the things leaning up to her killing the children, I don't see a lot of the father being mentioned in there. So I'm Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: not sure if that's problematic. Then we we look at that as like, is that the problem right there? Maybe she's the one that has to, you know, she she has a job to begin with. She goes on maternity leave. He goes back to like whatever he's doing, and she has to be stuck with the kids. And subsequently, every time she has Lisa: Mm. Ken: a kid, it gets even worse. the only thing I know about the postpartum like psychosis was that it's usually like with the first one, is usually like the worst. The first kid. Subsequently she had three kids. So I could just Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: imagine what happened by the third kid. She just went absolutely insane. Lisa: In it's interesting you say that because I was talking to this one person I know, and they told me that they had postpartum depression, and what happened was that she had a baby and their partner worked a lot. It it was basically gone. So she was a single mom. And she said that the fact that like just taking care of a small child and then a newborn was just so overwhelming. Even though she was a stay-at-home mom and they had the means she had that this is back in the nineties, That by herself, the overwhelmness caused her depression, postpartum depression. And I thought, that makes sense. Yeah, that's a lot for someone to go through. And just childbirth itself, it sounds so fucking painful, sounds so traumatic. I've never gone through it. I would be so scared of that. Ken: You hear things and you wonder why people don't want to do it anymore. And then you know there's like a big, like a like a fight between it's like, well, some people should should be mothers. That's the point of being a human being is to procreate. And then there's other people it's like, I want a life too. Lisa: huh. Ken: I don't want want my life to be dictated by having children. So it's like the two sides fighting each other. And I'm on the thing where it's like, just be happy to do what you're doing. If you're happy with having kids, be happy. If you're happy with not having kids, there shouldn't be someone telling you that you should have kids and you're a terrible person for not having kids. Just people should really just be happy with what they're doing. Lisa: Yeah, there's there's a lot of judgment. Whether you do it or don't. Ken: Yeah, there's nothing there's nothing worse than being like a parent, just because people wanted you to have kids. Or you just wanted to procreate to have like a next generation, and you have no intention of treating your kids with any kind of love or respect. That's ha that that's how this show started, I think. That's Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: how you get like shitty parents. That's really what it is. It's like, okay, so you're just having you're just having kids for the basis of the having kids. I know for my dad and my mom I swear they only had me because they really wanted a boy. Good for me, but you know, it's just Yes it is. Yes, it Lisa: That's very Asian. Sounds very Asian. Ken: is. It is. yes, I am Asian. And my parents are so st stereotypically on cue for that stuff. anything you could think about what immigrant Asian parents in America are, my parents are absolutely that. Lisa: Wow. Ken: Except paying for me to take like piano lessons. They didn't do that. They didn't give a shit. They didn't give a shit about Lisa: Yeah. What about the flute? What about the violin? Ken: that stuff. my cousin, I was like, I remember she got like every like, yeah, she's going to blah blah blah camp and she's taking piano and then she's getting all these things. And then my parents are like, You stay at home, okay? You can't hang out with your friends. Have a good summer. I'm like Lisa: Mm. Well while you were so Ken: Yeah, but mm-hmm. Lisa: you were planned. that's interesting. I didn't know that about you. Ken: Yeah, I was actually I I my mom had a miscarriage before right before she had me. Like the cycle beforehand, she had a miscarriage. So I was like try it was it was a boy. I I think Lisa: But was it a boy but was the miscarriage a boy or a girl? End of the world. Ken: Yeah, that would have been not me if they would have had that kid, they would have not had me. So it's the idea of that you have kids because you want a boy or a girl. It's like Lisa: But what if you had been a girl? Would they have just tried for another boy or just stopped? Ken: I really don't know at that point. I don't know. Because I remember my parents living we lived across from a really nice family and they had five straight daughters and then eventually they quit. Like they kept trying and then eventually they had five daughters. Which which they loved all their daughters, but it's just like yeah, that could it could happen that way where you just have five straight daughters and you have a basketball team right there. So I dunno sure how my parents w if they would've stopped right there, would they have tried for number three? I don't know. That's like something that, you only know if it happened. Hypothetically, Lisa: Interesting. Ken: I'm thinking maybe. But that but it took them a while to decide to have a second kid. That's why I have such a big gap with my sister. Because there was it it was they thought one child was enough and then they were like, let's try for a second child. A boy. I'm thinking if Lisa: Yeah, usually w Ken: I really think, Lisa, that if they had a boy to begin with, they would have not had a second child. I if my sister turned out to be like a brother, like sh like they would have had one kid and that was it. That's really what I think. Lisa: So going back to the Lindsay Clancy. Ken: Well going back to the Lizzie Clancy's, like what could we say about that, Lisa? Like we just don't know enough, do we? Lisa: But l okay, so let me ask you Ken. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: If she were, let's say a black woman, Latina, Asian woman going through this, do you think she would get as much sympathy? Ken: it's a really difficult question because I think a lot of it is that white lady bias. which could work for or against you because it's it's it's very interesting how just race relations are in this country. So it's hard for it's hard to say. I think she would have been treated differently, but You know, we could think that, yeah, if she was a black lady and she did this, they would throw the book at her. Is that what we're thinking? Lisa: Seems like it. I don't think she would get the sym half I don't quarter of the sympathy that she would get. Mm she she supposedly she comes from a relatively wealthy family. Not like super wealthy, but like meh, maybe upper middle class or whatever. She's not Ken: I think a lot of it's like you see that she's like upper middle class or maybe has a well off family, she has a job and like they both work, her and her husband. How could this happen? I think a lot of it's just shocking, right? You don't think like a family like that would have s like someone killing their kids like that. You would think it'll be like some dysfunctional family, maybe some sort of issues within their family, maybe lower income. You're thinking maybe something like that. I think that's what makes this so shocking. It's because what went wrong? I think a lot of it is like when you see people that are seemingly well off and you don't know what's going on inside their head, it makes it really intriguing trying to figure out why they did it. I think when you look at like, let's talk about Luigi Mangioni, right? he came from a well off family, he went to an Ivy League school, he was white. And it's like, why would he do this? Like you looked at it as like it doesn't look like a MO of someone that would do this. And that was what kind of makes it so interesting and kind of like so confusing. 'Cause you're expecting it's to be a certain type of person to be doing this crime, but it's not. Lisa: Yeah. But I I could see that. Man, it's so complicated. We don't know what was going through her mind. A lot of speculation. A lot of people sing online. My mom was a Lindsay Clancy, but she just Ken: Too lazy to finish you off. Lisa: Too lazy too f yeah. Ken: Well, here's the thing, like hopefully that, she had a like a hung jury mistrial. So are we gonna see more of this in the coming like future? More insight into this. where is it going from here? Will we get a mini series, you know, or we get like a you know, like a dateline episode. Probably. So but it's definitely something that we need to learn a lot more about. Lisa: Who do you think will play her in the in the like I I Ken: What the F Fancasting Lisa: You don't think you haven't thought about it? Ken: No I'll I don't look at Lisa: But you know Ken: like a I don't look at like a like a like a killer and then look at like who's gonna play that it's like who's gonna play Luigi Angioni in the eventual movie that's gonna come out? Lisa: Yeah, the obviously Dave Franco. They're very they they look alike. Ken: That's actually like I would pick that too, Dave. Dave, Dave Franco will be good. Lisa: Yeah. I could totally see that. I mean, I don't know, for Lindsay, I wonder who played her. Do you think we like Jennifer Le Hewitt? Ken: Nah. Lisa: No, you don't think so? Ken: It's funny because remember I showed you a picture of Jennifer Love He woo of makeup and it doesn't look like her? Like it doesn't look like Jennifer Love He woo without makeup. Like, she looks totally different now. Just you know, a mix of aging and, you know Lisa: Okay. I take offense to that because people always say that I look like Jennifer Love Hewitt Ken: I ac I I was actually the one of the p I I was one of the people that told you that. I was like, hey Lisa, this this picture kinda looks like you. It looks like a Jennifer Love Hewa without makeup. Lisa: yeah yeah. But it you weren't the only one. People I remember just walking into work and someone saying, my god. Ken: See, I knew it. I knew it. Cause I've t I've told other people I've told like mutual friends about that. I was like, hey, like because they showed like a picture of Jennifer Love Hewitt, like just, you know, just she's she's less in like, professional life now, so she's in private life, and to see her walking around, it's like, hey, it kind of looks like Lisa. I'm just gonna I'm Lisa: shit. I remember what Ken: just gonna I'm just gonna plaster you a bunch of pictures. I was like, hey, is this Lisa or is this Jennifer Love Hewitt? Lisa: Which is which? But the the thing is that Ken: Hey Jenford, love you we could pay you in the movie. Lisa: She'll play me, right? She looks like me. I don't look like her, right? But it the thing is, when the client list was really big on lifetime, and I was Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: working at this one office, and I would walk in and be like, my god, I watched the client list this weekend. my god, you reminded me so much of her, but like a younger version. And I'm like, Thanks. Ken: th it's funny they picked that one, it's like they didn't put they didn't pick Ghost Whisperer or something like that. Lisa: Thanks for the qualifier that I look younger I mean thanks, but like whatever. I don't know. Ken: You look like a younger version of a celebrity. That's older than you. Thanks. Well, you look like a celebrity, so it's like that's Lisa: But she's a good looking celebrity. Like I've been told like another s I look like another celebrity who was not good looking, and I was like, Ken: Offended. Lisa: let's just say it brought me down to Earth. I was like, Ken: It's like I thought Lisa: there's one okay, so there was one this one celebrity. I had no idea who they were, because it was an old-timey actress. And I was like, cool. And I googled her and I was like, Ken: It's like, Lisa: Is very humbling. Ken: Does she play the comic relief? Lisa: Definitely a character actor. Ken: that's bummer. Lisa: Yeah, not it wasn't like the funny fat chick, but it was like the more of like Yeah, I don't wanna s I even wanna say because it'll give it away, 'cause they're not conventionally attractive, let's just say that. But whatever. Anyways. It's Lindsay. Ken: Killer lady. Lisa: Killer lady? Lady kill yeah. Ken: I'm sure we're gonna talk more about her soon. Lisa: Yeah, I wish I'd like read read up more about her. I haven't had the time to Ken: It's bad shit crazy. Like if you look at like the diagnosis and stuff like that, it just keeps going. it's almost like she was trying to get a proper diagnosis on her mental condition and could not pin it down. And could not get I I'm assuming could not remedy it or even kinda lessen that anxiety and pain. Lisa: Yeah, 'cause someone said Lindsay Clancy was a good mother who was devoted to her children. Okay. Ken: Makes it tailor made for someone that really loves their children to actually kill Lisa: Yeah. Well Ken: If you don't care about your kids, you're just gonna leave them somewhere and maybe maybe they survive, but you know, you'd be a negligent parent. It's the problem is I think she cares, cares too much. And, you know, a lot of it is I'm not sure how much of it is her bipolar condition, how much of it is the postpartum psychosis, how much of it is her relationship with her husband during that time. It's a lot of unknowns. And that makes it really hard to kind of Talk without speculating. Lisa: Yeah, 'cause that actual like saying I mean, it it basically describes like a narcissistic parent. people are like, Wow, you're such a good parent because they'll do a couple things in front of people and then Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: they'll tell people like, I paid for this, I did this, you know, I did this for them. People so Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: people assume that they're good parents, and they find out like, you killed them? No, that's not that's not the Lindsay I know. Right? So Ken: Well, I don't I don't know how much of a n narcissistic tendency she would have 'cause it it wasn't displayed in any of the kind of documentation, so it's hard to even know about that. I I think a lot of it was just how it was maybe a mix of, you know, mental illness and expectations of being a mother of three and I'm assuming almost being like a full time employee. where's the time for that? So we think about it, it's like what happens if you need all these things to go well and you can't mentally function? How do you go to work? How do you take care of your kids? J I almost like the worst case scenario, right? Like it the wheels just fall off here. And I think this is what happened. Lisa: I mean so technically like postpartum depression, psychosis, so it lasts what, like a year, a year and a half? That's when it usually lasts. So this is Ken: Mm-hmm. What happens when you have three kids? Lisa: well. Ken: Like three years straight of this? Jeez. Cause it seems Lisa: So you y Ken: like she had kids like right after another, one after another. So it's like, ooh. Lisa: One over. Ken: Think about it. It's just like a streak of shooting a kid out and then feeling depressed, and then shooting a kid out, and then feeling depressed. It's like there's no like recovery period at that point. And I think this is yeah. Lisa: No, it's the Irish twins. They call it Irish twins, right? Ken: I guess. I never heard that term before. Yeah, I never heard about that. I have met I Lisa: Is one after another after another? Like is it literally nine nine months apart? That's what they call it. Ken: have myth families where it literally like like the kids were all like one year apart. It's like what the heck happened there? Lisa: this is my grandmother. You're you're talking about my Mexican grandmother? Yeah. Ken: It's like one right after another, it's like jackpot, jackpot, jackpot. Lisa: Yep. But yeah, yeah, that's the interesting thing where it's like if she was such a great mom well I don't know. Ken: We don't know. Lisa: We don't know. Ken: The whole conclusion to this episode is we don't know yet. Lisa: No. And there's gonna be a lot more coming out because right at this point of Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: recording, it's a mistrial. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: So we're just waiting. There's one juror who's held out. And I honestly I probably would have met that one juror who's just so ambivalent. And I'm like, I don't know. And man, that's really fucking difficult. Ken: Not knowing. Lisa: Not knowing. Ken: We need to know more. And then we could do a you know, a part two of this episode. Lisa: We mu it might. It might just come out because who knows what's gonna happen in a few days. Ken: I really think that something's gonna come out sooner rather than later. I think this is gonna be this people were really paying attention to this case and seeing what happened here. It's very interesting, Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: in my opinion. it's it's a tragedy, but I think it it's a story with a lot of layers. everybody's just speculating at this point. Lisa: Yeah. Totally agree. So to wrap it up, what do you want any last words, Ken? Ken: Well, this is episode twenty five, Lisa. We made it to twenty five. So we're halfway to fifty. We're a quarter to a hundred. Lisa: Yeah halfway to fifty woo hoo. Ken: And you know, our our a lot of our episodes randomly get a lot of listens for some reason. Like you know, I I you know, I've been sick for the last couple of weeks, Lisa's been busy. So we haven't been able to record. So during that time I usually re-release a episode and we did one about our birthdays, which were two of the least like well performing episodes, by the way. Like it didn't perform very well. So I made one where it put both of them together and apparently now it's just very popular. I don't know why. The internet i is baffles me. And that's all I have to say, Lisa. Lisa: Okay. Well, hopefully we'll have more news and we can talk more about the Lindsay Clancy case, or more closure about it, hopefully soon. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: But thank you guys for listening. I know we kinda rambled off and went off topic, but I've I think it's very important that we know about this stuff. Because I'm for me, I'm very passionate about mental health and I think we do not take it very seriously as a society in in general, you know, not just like in this country or worldwide. There's just a lot we don't know and I'm hoping that in our tiny little podcast we're making a big a difference and get getting people to realize how important mental health is. And thank you guys so much for listening and we'll see you next time. Ken: Hi Lisa. Lisa: Good night, Ken. Ken: Hi everyone. Lisa: Right, have a good one. Bye.