Latest / Math Therapy / How Math Therapy changed my entire life w/ Charizma Laughton

Transcript

How Math Therapy changed my entire life w/ Charizma Laughton · Math Therapy

• 0:02
  Charizma Laughton: I've always had this identity I'm not good at maths, never will be, I'm not smart enough, I'm not good enough, that's who I am.
• 0:10
  Charizma Laughton: and then realizing that maths was a lot more than just numbers.
• 0:14
  Charizma Laughton: I am definitely warming to it now and slightly less scared.
• 0:18
  Charizma Laughton: every little thing where I notice there's a bit of math, I'm just like, I'm a mathematician.
• 0:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that explores the root causes of math trauma, and the empowering ways we can heal from it.
• 0:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist.
• 0:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do.
• 0:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, and don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast.
• 0:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hear me out guys.
• 0:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: What if the thing that's been holding you back your entire life was a lie you were told in third grade?
• 0:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, this week's guest is someone incredibly special: charizma, a 29-year-old woman I met after a yoga class in Bali.
• 1:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Her entire life, Charizma, had always believed she just wasn't a math person.
• 1:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Until we started doing one-on-one math therapy together, and not only did her relationship with math change, but so did her entire life guys.
• 1:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: In this episode, she opens up about a lifetime of math anxiety rooted in early trauma.
• 1:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: She also opens up about the moment she realized that math is so much more than numbers, and how she finally started facing her fear of math and came out on the other side, feeling not just capable but powerful.
• 1:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is one of the most personal, vulnerable conversations we've ever had on the podcast.
• 1:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Charizma is living proof that the stories we tell ourselves can change, that it's never too late to change, and that healing your relationship with math can completely change the way you see yourself, the world, and what you're truly capable of.
• 1:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hi Charizma, welcome to Math Therapy.
• 2:00
  Charizma Laughton: Hi Vanessa.
• 2:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, so, I feel like there's so much I want to talk to you about and I'm just gonna try and like hold in my excitement and just start by saying I'm so happy to have you here.
• 2:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think this is so cool.
• 2:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: We've only known each other for like two weeks, right?
• 2:16
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 2:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Isn't that, it feels like so long, um, because we've been through so much together and you're such a fascinating person.
• 2:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I'm gonna just start by asking you what you know, you're also my first ever, I don't wanna say my student'cause you're not my student, but like my first ever like person I've had on here that I've done math therapy with actively.
• 2:36
  Charizma Laughton: Mm-hmm.
• 2:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 2:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: So my first question actually is just how did you end up here?
• 2:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, what possibly motivated you to be like, yeah, you know what, I wanna do some math therapy.
• 2:47
  Charizma Laughton: Well, you met my partner.
• 2:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 2:50
  Charizma Laughton: Who mentioned to you that I was a bit funny with maths.
• 2:54
  Charizma Laughton: And then when he came back to me and told me that you do math therapy, I was like, oh cool.
• 3:02
  Charizma Laughton: And he is just like, maybe you should meet up with her.
• 3:06
  Charizma Laughton: And I was like, oh, I'm a bit scared.
• 3:12
  Charizma Laughton: But then I was just like, yeah?
• 3:16
  Charizma Laughton: This is an opportunity to really work on something that's always been a bit of a struggle for me.
• 3:25
  Charizma Laughton: And, so even though I was pretty nervous, I was like, yeah, let's get it.
• 3:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Let's get it.
• 3:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 3:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: So when you say you were a bit, always been a bit funny with maths, I love how you say that.
• 3:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love that you say maths also, uh, what does, what did that mean to you?
• 3:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, what was your kind of relationship with math like?
• 3:45
  Charizma Laughton: Uh, I guess I'd just given up on maths.
• 3:49
  Charizma Laughton: I was just like, I'm not a maths person.
• 3:54
  Charizma Laughton: I'm not good at it.
• 3:56
  Charizma Laughton: Never have been, never will be.
• 3:58
  Charizma Laughton: And just kind of was like, yeah, I'm just not a maths person.
• 4:03
  Charizma Laughton: And maths has always just been very scary for me since a very young age, but even more so as I've gotten older, um, because maybe when I was younger I was like, I'll get there eventually, but then I just kind of feel like I never really did.
• 4:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: And when, so I'm actually really, really curious'cause I know I kind of know more about the story now when you were saying, you know, I'm not a math person and I just won't be able to get it.
• 4:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: What were you thinking of when you were thinking of math?
• 4:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, what were the things you felt, let's say, bad at, or the things that felt like scary to you?
• 4:43
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah, just numbers.
• 4:45
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 4:45
  Charizma Laughton: Like if I saw numbers, they would just kind of be everywhere in my head.
• 4:54
  Charizma Laughton: Even when my partner would ask me, like when his birthday is, I would just get flustered.
• 5:03
  Charizma Laughton: And I'd freak out and I'd throw some numbers out there and hope that, that it was correct.
• 5:10
  Charizma Laughton: I think anything to do with numbers has been really freaky for me.
• 5:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 5:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: And so this is really interesting that you're kind of like numbers and I, I'm wondering too, if you can even like, remember what that the feeling was that you would get, like, you know, like if you were like faced with a number, do you have any idea why you would get flustered?
• 5:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'd actually love to hear like what that flustered ness felt like.
• 5:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: If you can try and describe it.
• 5:35
  Charizma Laughton: Well, I'd been practicing maths with a friend previously, cause I have been tutoring some maths, but I wanted to learn how to do this kind of problem correctly and make sure I knew how to teach it.
• 5:51
  Charizma Laughton: So, got my friend who I would consider is better at maths than me to help me out, and I just couldn't understand it and I would cry.
• 6:01
  Charizma Laughton: So there have been multiple occasions as an adult that I've cried just looking at numbers and being like, it just does not make sense.
• 6:11
  Charizma Laughton: It's not clicking, is not making any sense in my brain.
• 6:16
  Charizma Laughton: And then, yeah, now just even looking at numbers has been a little bit scary, where I just kind of want to shut them out, or I guess I have a bit of a fight or flight response to it, or freeze.
• 6:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: And yeah, you just kind of wanna like, shut it down, avoid it.
• 6:36
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 6:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Or you literally like start crying and, and feeling kind of panicky.
• 6:39
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 6:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Was there a feeling that came up, like, you know, you were kind of saying when you were working on that math problem with your friend, you were just frustrated you couldn't get it.
• 6:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Did you feel like that was like saying something about yourself?
• 6:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, why was it so loaded?
• 6:51
  Charizma Laughton: Oh, yeah, totally.
• 6:52
  Charizma Laughton: I just, I feel in those moments that I'm just dumb and it's just kind of added to this lifelong story that I've had that, you know, I'm not smart enough.
• 7:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because I know about a bit about your background, I do wanna kind of just ask about that because I think it's really important for listeners to hear how you got to that place, right?
• 7:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, so you'd mentioned kind of in elementary school it was always difficult.
• 7:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Are there things you can kind of pinpoint about education that, that got you here?
• 7:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like that you were, that led you to the place where you were like, I can't do it.
• 7:26
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah, so I think a big part would be that I went to a Steiner school when I was young in kindergarten, and they don't teach maths till you're about seven.
• 7:41
  Charizma Laughton: Then I switched schools.
• 7:43
  Charizma Laughton: I went to like a traditional public Australian school.
• 7:47
  Charizma Laughton: And I remember being in the classroom and the teacher would ask questions in maths class and I would have no clue.
• 8:00
  Charizma Laughton: I don't even know what she was saying.
• 8:04
  Charizma Laughton: I was just like, what, what does that mean?
• 8:08
  Charizma Laughton: And so that was very early on that I was like, I just dunno.
• 8:14
  Charizma Laughton: I haven't got a clue.
• 8:16
  Charizma Laughton: And actually, I think that the teachers kind of just put it down to I wasn't really smart.
• 8:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: What gave you that impression?
• 8:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like what they,
• 8:26
  Charizma Laughton: 'Cause they just gave me different schoolwork to the other kids in the class.
• 8:32
  Charizma Laughton: And so I kind of feel like I fell through the gaps.
• 8:36
  Charizma Laughton: And maybe the teachers didn't really know how to bring me up to speed or what I needed.
• 8:45
  Charizma Laughton: And I guess in large classroom environments, it's hard to really give that individualized learning.
• 8:53
  Charizma Laughton: So yeah, I definitely felt like I've fell through the cracks.
• 8:58
  Charizma Laughton: And then even in high school, I was given different work to everyone else in the class.
• 9:03
  Charizma Laughton: Wow.
• 9:04
  Charizma Laughton: And, yeah, so that's probably what happened in school.
• 9:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 9:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you were mentioning earlier something about like, when things were timed, you would get really stressed out.
• 9:14
  Charizma Laughton: Oh my goodness.
• 9:16
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 9:17
  Charizma Laughton: That, that's felt kind of traumatic.
• 9:20
  Charizma Laughton: I just remember and so vividly that we would play games where it would be timed multiplications and I would just get to the front and I'll be next to someone and I would just like be absolutely blank.
• 9:38
  Charizma Laughton: I was probably in a freeze response and then I'd just go to the back and I'd let other people go in front of me.
• 9:45
  Charizma Laughton: 'Cause I don't wanna be next at the front again.
• 9:48
  Charizma Laughton: So I just avoided it as much as I could, but I just remember being on the spot, just like no idea and just, yeah, going to the back.
• 9:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, hopefully it's felt validating for you that we've talked about how these, the, these timed activities, even if someone has, feels good at math at one point, that can like set someone off and mm-hmm.
• 10:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Especially that competitive nature.
• 10:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like, not only timed, but it's like public.
• 10:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 10:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it's against other people.
• 10:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: So you're comparing and you're being judged like it's a lot.
• 10:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 10:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, I'm sorry that happened to you'cause we, we do not like that as a practice anymore, many of us.
• 10:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 10:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: I wanna fast forward a bit of like, okay, so this is kind of sets the stage of like why you kind of had these feelings and you've carried those with you.
• 10:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: So enter us and our, our math therapy.
• 10:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: You, you mentioned that when you think of math, you think of numbers.
• 10:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: And one of the first things I remember us talking about is the idea of what math is, and how much math you're already doing.
• 10:44
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 10:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: How did that kind of feel for you and how are you kind of feeling now about your math skills?
• 10:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, not that that's a big question, but like can you kind of explain your journey through, what math is for you?
• 10:57
  Charizma Laughton: Well, after our, or during our first, first session, you had a list of different math concepts or topics, and I just didn't realize that all of those things were maths.
• 11:11
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah, and like reading maps and, just like spatial awareness and like there were some topics on there that I felt a little more comfortable with geometry or whatever.
• 11:25
  Charizma Laughton: But yeah, even just problem solving.
• 11:28
  Charizma Laughton: So from memory, I think I circled about half of the things on the list.
• 11:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: So interesting for someone who says that they can't like, remember things because that is exactly what happened.
• 11:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sorry, that was unnecessarily sarcastic.
• 11:43
  Charizma Laughton: So that, that was a big shift for me, because yeah, it just changed what I thought, what math actually was.
• 11:55
  Charizma Laughton: And then I kind of went home and I just realized that I was doing maths all the time, and so I was feeling like a mathematician just after like that one session with you and just rewriting what maths actually is.
• 12:14
  Charizma Laughton: Mm-hmm.
• 12:15
  Charizma Laughton: And gosh, it just really opened up something huge for me because it hasn't just been the, shift of not being good at maths.
• 12:29
  Charizma Laughton: It's actually shifted so much more because maths is more than just numbers like I thought.
• 12:35
  Charizma Laughton: So I just was like, holy crap, I think I'm a lot smarter than I am and that's not something that I would really say to myself very often.
• 12:48
  Charizma Laughton: Aw.
• 12:49
  Charizma Laughton: So it was just a huge shift,'cause it wasn't just like maths, like I thought it was, it was, I'm not smart enough, I'm not good enough, to do something or to try something.
• 13:00
  Charizma Laughton: and then realizing that maths was a lot more than just numbers.
• 13:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well and another part.
• 13:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: So thank you for sharing that and making me look really good.
• 13:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: But ano another, another really interesting part of your story was that, I wanna go back to you saying when you were, you were just talking at the beginning of this conversation about working on that math problem with your friend, and you just felt like you couldn't get it.
• 13:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: And something you had said to me early on was.
• 13:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: I know I can get things if I have the time.
• 13:27
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 13:28
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 13:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I thought that was such an interesting, uh, shift because you kind of went from being like, oh, math isn't for me and I can't do it.
• 13:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then we started discovering like that.
• 13:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Actually the story is you're not good at math because A numbers and then B kind of like you can't get things in a way other people can, or as fast as anyone can.
• 13:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 13:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because I want you to tell us the story about when in university you made up your mind to pass that to, to do that math course.
• 13:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: And this came out during our first session, and then I was like, what the fuck?
• 13:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like you're saying you can't do math yet.
• 14:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like when, anyways, you tell the story.
• 14:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: You tell the story.
• 14:04
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 14:04
  Charizma Laughton: So, my first maths assignment, I failed, I think I got like 30 or something out of a hundred.
• 14:14
  Charizma Laughton: And I tried so hard on that, I was like, damn, this doesn't feel good.
• 14:20
  Charizma Laughton: And I remember going up to the front where the lecturer was and I just like slammed my paper down and swore and walked out.
• 14:30
  Charizma Laughton: But I went home that day and I was like, oh, I really wanna get this.
• 14:36
  Charizma Laughton: So I went to this lecturer and I said, I'm really struggling.
• 14:42
  Charizma Laughton: I don't understand these concepts, would you help me?
• 14:45
  Charizma Laughton: And she stayed back like for four hours or something, just helping me with my maths.
• 14:54
  Charizma Laughton: And she just put in this time with me.
• 14:59
  Charizma Laughton: And I'm, I feel like I'm a bit slow to get to my answers, but she like came back every day as well.
• 15:07
  Charizma Laughton: Wow.
• 15:07
  Charizma Laughton: So I got to really have her, yeah.
• 15:12
  Charizma Laughton: Her support.
• 15:14
  Charizma Laughton: And basically I ended up passing really strong.
• 15:19
  Charizma Laughton: And
• 15:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Wait, pa sorry, pause.
• 15:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Passing really strong.
• 15:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Can we all allow, what is that?
• 15:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: What is that?
• 15:25
  Charizma Laughton: I got into like an honor society and stuff.
• 15:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, so I'm sorry, what the fuck?
• 15:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, the playing down of this huge accomplishment will not fly on the pod.
• 15:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 15:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yes.
• 15:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Go on.
• 15:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just wanted to make that clear.
• 15:40
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah, so I got pretty good grades by the end of it, which was bizarre because yeah, I've always had this story that I'm not good at maths, I'm not good at school'cause I barely even got into university.
• 15:55
  Charizma Laughton: But then I ended up getting some of the highest grades for my, cohort and class.
• 16:00
  Charizma Laughton: So it was,
• 16:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm sorry, sorry.
• 16:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: What?
• 16:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, what's so interesting is you're still playing down the story.
• 16:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: No problem.
• 16:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's baby steps.
• 16:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: But when I, when you brought this up during our first session, I was like, hold on a second.
• 16:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: So where does the story of.
• 16:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: I can't do math.
• 16:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm not good at math.
• 16:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Come from when you just told this story about when you set your mind to it, had someone help you put in the work, you got some of the highest grades.
• 16:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: What, how come we weren't?
• 16:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: How come that, that that event didn't impact you in, in a positive way where you carry that with you?
• 16:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Why did we go back to I can't do math.
• 16:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm actually curious.
• 16:35
  Charizma Laughton: Hmm.
• 16:36
  Charizma Laughton: I think for me, doing it in the book and in the classroom was fine.
• 16:43
  Charizma Laughton: And I really was practicing my maths to get to where I was at the time.
• 16:49
  Charizma Laughton: And then out in real life situations where I'm thrown numbers.
• 16:53
  Charizma Laughton: Mm.
• 16:53
  Charizma Laughton: It's been pretty easy to also avoid as well or to Sure.
• 16:58
  Charizma Laughton: It's all kind of, I could pull out my, it's not a big deal.
• 17:03
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 17:03
  Charizma Laughton: But I think what was big was just like when I was tutoring and I really wanted to show up for these children and I, and I wasn't getting it and I was in front of my friend mm-hmm.
• 17:17
  Charizma Laughton: It just kind of sets something off for me.
• 17:19
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 17:19
  Charizma Laughton: Because they're, they're like a human calculator.
• 17:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, this friend.
• 17:23
  Charizma Laughton: And they, they get the numbers and it's just like instant for them.
• 17:28
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 17:28
  Charizma Laughton: So I think I just panic when I don't like, have that.
• 17:33
  Charizma Laughton: Time to think it through.
• 17:34
  Charizma Laughton: Mm-hmm.
• 17:35
  Charizma Laughton: Or, also just being in front of people.
• 17:38
  Charizma Laughton: Mm-hmm.
• 17:38
  Charizma Laughton: Or on the spot kind of thing.
• 17:39
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 17:40
  Charizma Laughton: Scares me a lot.
• 17:41
  Charizma Laughton: Or Yeah.
• 17:42
  Charizma Laughton: Used to.
• 17:43
  Charizma Laughton: It's getting better.
• 17:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, it's, I, I wanna highlight something here.
• 17:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: 'Cause there's a couple of things that I think are really important to notice.
• 17:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, first of all, our brain has negativity bias, so we will always see the negative.
• 17:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like you're gonna kind of, it's normal to be like, yeah, there was this one time in university where I tried really hard, but all these other times, right?
• 18:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like our brains do that for survival.
• 18:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: So that's why it's so important for us like to really notice when we are having those successes.
• 18:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: 'cause we almost have to highlight to our brains, like, pay attention to this one more than like the time I couldn't do the, the tip on the restaurant bill, right?
• 18:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, you like fucking pass, getting the highest grades in a university course speaks way more to your math ability than like the one time you couldn't do six times five.
• 18:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, you know what I mean?
• 18:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: But our brains will pick that one.
• 18:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: But then also what's so interesting, and I found working with you is you know, you have this story and it's very connected to numbers.
• 18:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: again, in that first week there was already so much more progress and you being like, I am a mathematician.
• 18:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm doing math.
• 18:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I remember in our second session you were kind of like, listen, the thing that's gonna make me feel better is like being able to do my timestables.
• 18:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 18:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know, there's still this.
• 18:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I think that's really important because I think we can acknowledge two things at once.
• 18:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: One, yes.
• 18:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: That we feel capable in these areas of math, that we're growing in that way, that we're feeling more confident.
• 18:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: And two, that there's an area that's kind of a soft spot for us that we'd like to feel better in.
• 19:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 19:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: And that's okay, right?
• 19:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: But like, one doesn't negate the other, like, just because right now you don't feel confident in your timestables that doesn't like eradicate all of the math confidence you've built and all the skill you've built.
• 19:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
• 19:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I think that's really, really important.
• 19:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: and we, so we, we decided to start working on your timestables, so I definitely wanna talk about that.
• 19:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Part of this story was like, I feel dumb if I can't do it.
• 19:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: I feel dumb if I can't do it in front of people.
• 19:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: And also, a really big part of your story was like, I think, and tell me if I'm wrong, but like I'm the kind of person who like can't get things or something.
• 19:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: There was like something about this, like, I'm the type of person who I just can't get some things or like, do you think
• 19:47
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah, it's a part of my identity that I've had or this story that I've carried for as long as I can remember is not being able to, yeah, get it the first go.
• 20:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Get it the first go.
• 20:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 20:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: But then before we go into the timestables, I almost like, do we want to do the, the water story?
• 20:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Cause I think when you brought up that part of your story of being like, yeah, I'm just the type of person, if I can't get it the first go, like, I was believing you.
• 20:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: I was like, okay, so that's the type of person she is.
• 20:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'll work with that.
• 20:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then you told me the story, that completely like blew my mind and I was like.
• 20:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is so crazy that you're carrying this story around, but these major things in your, in your life have proved that the opposite is true.
• 20:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: And so I, I do need you to share the, the near drowning story because it's just, it's unbelievable.
• 20:38
  Charizma Laughton: Okay.
• 20:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 20:39
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah, so I was at this event with friends, and there was this dam, it was quite a large dam, and basically, I was really excited'cause the day before I'd swam to the other side and I've not been like a super confident swimmer, but I could swim and, but then the next day when I went in, there was no one else in there, but I had my friends on the side, they couldn't really see me swimming.
• 21:11
  Charizma Laughton: But I got halfway through and I was in the middle of the dam and I just kind of forgot how to swim, or I was just like, wow, I am a very long way to the end.
• 21:26
  Charizma Laughton: I don't think I could do this.
• 21:28
  Charizma Laughton: And my fight or flight response was just to, well freeze.
• 21:33
  Charizma Laughton: Oh my god.
• 21:34
  Charizma Laughton: And so when you freeze in water, you kind of start to go under a bit.
• 21:43
  Charizma Laughton: And so that was not a very pleasant experience.
• 21:48
  Charizma Laughton: I was like, oh my gosh, I think I'm gonna drown right now.
• 21:53
  Charizma Laughton: Like, I know that my friends are here as well, but.
• 21:58
  Charizma Laughton: it was almost like I'd rather die than embarrass myself calling out for help.
• 22:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God.
• 22:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: We just have to pause for a second.
• 22:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like my whole, like, okay, okay, keep going.
• 22:11
  Charizma Laughton: So I just like did my best to kind of swim to the side, but I was very upright and I wasn't swimming properly.
• 22:23
  Charizma Laughton: Mm.
• 22:23
  Charizma Laughton: And I went under for a bit and I was just kind of like, this is it.
• 22:28
  Charizma Laughton: And I was just kind of accepting, but at the same time I was like, oh, I'm just gonna keep trying and
• 22:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God.
• 22:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: You were accepting that you were gonna drown.
• 22:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Fuck.
• 22:39
  Charizma Laughton: Well, I mean, somewhat.
• 22:41
  Charizma Laughton: I ended up getting out, through the side.
• 22:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, you're here now.
• 22:45
  Charizma Laughton: I stood up and I went and sat with my friends and I was just a bit quiet, but they didn't realize like anything.
• 22:51
  Charizma Laughton: And then I was walking back, and I told my friend, I was just like, I always drowned.
• 22:59
  Charizma Laughton: And they're like, what?
• 23:01
  Charizma Laughton: And it only took a few minutes and then the shock kind of just like set in.
• 23:09
  Charizma Laughton: And I cried.
• 23:10
  Charizma Laughton: I cried.
• 23:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: The pathetic fallacy of this happening right now, the dramatic music.
• 23:17
  Charizma Laughton: Um, I just cried.
• 23:18
  Charizma Laughton: I think it was a bit wild for me to be like, yeah, I'd rather dive and be in this embarrassment right now.
• 23:27
  Charizma Laughton: So, and then I just didn't trust my body after that.
• 23:31
  Charizma Laughton: I was like, I don't wanna eat.
• 23:34
  Charizma Laughton: What if, what if my digestion doesn't like work?
• 23:38
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 23:38
  Charizma Laughton: 'cause I just didn't trust that I could do anything.
• 23:43
  Charizma Laughton: But, after a few hours I was like, I really don't want this to become such a traumatic event for me.
• 23:52
  Charizma Laughton: So I was like, I'm gonna go into the dam the next morning.
• 23:58
  Charizma Laughton: So I woke up, went to the dam, and I was like, shaking, and I just put my feet in.
• 24:04
  Charizma Laughton: I was like, all right, that's enough.
• 24:06
  Charizma Laughton: Like I'll just stand here for a couple of minutes.
• 24:09
  Charizma Laughton: And so I did that and, that's all I could do.
• 24:13
  Charizma Laughton: I couldn't, I couldn't go any further.
• 24:16
  Charizma Laughton: And the next week I went to the local pool and I was like, yes, I'm gonna put my head under.
• 24:21
  Charizma Laughton: I'm gonna, you know, get over this thing.
• 24:24
  Charizma Laughton: And I just went to, you know, like maybe shoulder height and I was like, no, I just stood in the pool for a whole hour.
• 24:36
  Charizma Laughton: I was like, I can't put my head under, it's just impossible.
• 24:40
  Charizma Laughton: And then over a few years I just started doing a little bit more like swimming, taking my feet off the ground.
• 24:48
  Charizma Laughton: Then last year or the year before I went snorkeling,
• 24:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: like huge.
• 24:54
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 24:55
  Charizma Laughton: And then just a couple of weeks ago, I went scuba diving
• 25:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God.
• 25:00
  Charizma Laughton: Where I did not come up for air for about 45 minutes.
• 25:06
  Charizma Laughton: So that was just, yeah, pretty wild and such a big journey for me.
• 25:13
  Charizma Laughton: Um, that was over like five years to overcome that one,
• 25:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, okay.
• 25:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: I've heard this story before and every, and I even know, I'm like, oh my God, there's so many.
• 25:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, I gotta, I gotta do a breakdown, because I remember when you told me that story, not to mitigate the, how much more important drowning is than learning math.
• 25:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 25:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Everyone, like, I just wanna say, but the parallels are so wild to me, this idea of your body just stopped knowing how to swim and you knew how.
• 25:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
• 25:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, it's not like you, it just, it just, and then that can happen.
• 25:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like you can know your times tables even and just freeze in a moment and not know how to do it.
• 25:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 25:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like this happened to me in yoga class the other day.
• 25:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: I told you when, like, I was at the front and everyone was behind me and I suddenly couldn't do a posture I'd been doing for two months.
• 25:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 25:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, so to know that that happens and then B, such a powerful moment is you making that decision to be like, if, if I don't try this thing again, it's gonna turn into this traumatic event that I can never swim again.
• 26:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's gonna turn into that like, and you making that decision and then having the patience and trust in yourself to being like, I'm not gonna rush it.
• 26:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: It took five fucking years, but now look where you are.
• 26:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm-hmm.
• 26:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know?
• 26:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: And so when we were talking about this, I asked you, I was like, does this at all make you reflect on your math journey?
• 26:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Or like, do you know what I mean?
• 26:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I'm curious what you thought.
• 26:29
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 26:30
  Charizma Laughton: Well, I guess that's why I am here with you it's been such a, big story.
• 26:36
  Charizma Laughton: And, like having maths trauma, you know?
• 26:40
  Charizma Laughton: And when William first was like, why don't you see Vanessa?
• 26:45
  Charizma Laughton: I did feel nervous, but yeah, I guess I was just like, no, I am going to, I'm gonna overcome this, and I guess I know it'll take time.
• 26:57
  Charizma Laughton: I still don't know my times tables yet, but I know more than I did.
• 27:00
  Charizma Laughton: Like, yeah.
• 27:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: But how many of your timetables did we determine that you knew?
• 27:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Half of'em.
• 27:05
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 27:06
  Charizma Laughton: Half of them.
• 27:07
  Charizma Laughton: And I, and I know more now already.
• 27:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 27:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it's literally been two weeks.
• 27:12
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 27:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know, there's, I do a lot of work around like fear and math, trauma, and there's something called the fear anxiety avoidance cycle, where, when we have this fear and we go into avoidance mm-hmm.
• 27:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: So we're like, oh my God, I'm scared, I'm anxious, whatever, I'm not gonna do the thing.
• 27:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: It just perpetuates.
• 27:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm-hmm.
• 27:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then it gets stronger and stronger.
• 27:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: So like, it's like the more you, like if you had avoided swimming, it's like every time you were faced with water, it would be even less likely that you were gonna go in.
• 27:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
• 27:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: And what you did is what I try to help teachers help their students do, which is to interrupt the cycle.
• 27:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: When between anxiety and avoidance.
• 27:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: So you have anxiety about the thing, like let's say math.
• 27:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: And if you avoid it, if you, if you decide to avoid it.
• 27:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: That anxiety's gonna get stronger the next time.
• 27:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: You yourself, without anyone else's help just interrupted the cycle.
• 27:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like with that swimming, you were like, fuck it.
• 28:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I'm gonna, I'm gonna do anything.
• 28:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: And all you did was stood in the water.
• 28:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: But that's also what we try to do in math education.
• 28:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just find a way for someone to do any math.
• 28:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like if they're scared of math, just any math at all.
• 28:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: It could be like, count to five, like count something.
• 28:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't care.
• 28:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: So that like you interrupt the cycle so it doesn't make the anxiety stronger the next time.
• 28:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 28:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: And so when we, like I just, this story is so powerful'cause it's such a metaphor.
• 28:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: For what I'm trying to help people do.
• 28:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then what you ended up doing after we talked through this story is you went home and you did some math.
• 28:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I actually want pe I wanna, I wanna hear what you've been doing.
• 28:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: By the way, everyone I told Charizma to go home and do 10 minutes maximum of math on Duolingo.
• 28:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, I was like start at the very beginning and what happened instead.
• 28:45
  Charizma Laughton: I think I, the first day I spent like two hours just doing maths, learning my timestables and and hanging out on Duolingo.
• 28:56
  Charizma Laughton: And I was just so excited for it.
• 28:59
  Charizma Laughton: as soon as I finished with you, I just downloaded the app and I went for it and I was obsessed with it.
• 29:06
  Charizma Laughton: And I was like, this is so much fun.
• 29:09
  Charizma Laughton: I was just really excited and I think because you've just had so much faith or something in me and that's been feeling really good for me and just super easy for me to pick up my phone, do duolingo and to practice my timetables, which in the past I haven't given enough time towards, I've not been excited at all about math.
• 29:30
  Charizma Laughton: So it's been a massive shift and I'm just really grateful for that.
• 29:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm, I'm so grateful to be a part of this.
• 29:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, I wanna know in two, so it's been two weeks.
• 29:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you feel like you've gained any math skills?
• 29:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, do you feel any better with, with your time stables or math?
• 29:46
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 29:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Really?
• 29:47
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 29:48
  Charizma Laughton: I I have
• 29:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: show off, like brag about your progress right now.
• 29:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is time to show off.
• 29:53
  Charizma Laughton: Oh my goodness.
• 29:55
  Charizma Laughton: Well.
• 29:56
  Charizma Laughton: I've been asking my partner to just blurt out some timetables.
• 30:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're working on your sixes right now, right?
• 30:04
  Charizma Laughton: Sixes and nines
• 30:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're on nines We're doing it, yeah.
• 30:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 30:07
  Charizma Laughton: And that's been pretty good because I've not, oh, actually I did freak out at one point with my numbers and I had a bit of a, a thing.
• 30:17
  Charizma Laughton: Mm-hmm.
• 30:17
  Charizma Laughton: But we moved through that.
• 30:19
  Charizma Laughton: but I've been getting pretty good results and my answers have been mostly correct.
• 30:26
  Charizma Laughton: Sometimes they're not.
• 30:27
  Charizma Laughton: Um, but usually like being given a number on the spot has freaked me out.
• 30:33
  Charizma Laughton: Right.
• 30:33
  Charizma Laughton: But I've just been asking, I've given permission to my partner to do that, so.
• 30:39
  Charizma Laughton: That's been, that's been a learning curve in itself.
• 30:42
  Charizma Laughton: Not to freak out in that moment.
• 30:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: I was gonna say, like, it's great that your answers are mostly right, obviously that's awesome.
• 30:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I actually think one of the, the coolest things is you did have a bit of, yeah, I believe he, I believe he stumped you.
• 30:53
  Charizma Laughton: Yes.
• 30:54
  Charizma Laughton: So we were doing sixes,
• 30:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: We love him.
• 30:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: But yeah, like, I'd like to hear this story.
• 31:00
  Charizma Laughton: We were doing sixes and he just threw me, um, 5.5 times six,
• 31:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Which like, come on.
• 31:09
  Charizma Laughton: And I freaked out.
• 31:10
  Charizma Laughton: So did you, I was like, that's not my usual.
• 31:12
  Charizma Laughton: Like, I can't do that.
• 31:14
  Charizma Laughton: I was getting all flustered.
• 31:15
  Charizma Laughton: I was, yeah.
• 31:17
  Charizma Laughton: It was so scary.
• 31:19
  Charizma Laughton: And I just blurted out a number.
• 31:21
  Charizma Laughton: I didn't know what it was, 85 was to go with, and he's just screwed up his face.
• 31:28
  Charizma Laughton: And he's like, how did you get that number?
• 31:30
  Charizma Laughton: And I was like, oh, I don't know.
• 31:34
  Charizma Laughton: And I just was like, all right, I just need to slow down.
• 31:38
  Charizma Laughton: And I just thought about it.
• 31:41
  Charizma Laughton: And I eventually got to my answer.
• 31:44
  Charizma Laughton: It was 33.
• 31:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: How did you do it?
• 31:46
  Charizma Laughton: Well, what I did was six times five.
• 31:53
  Charizma Laughton: And that gives me 30, and then six times I did point fives and that gives me three total.
• 32:03
  Charizma Laughton: So add those together.
• 32:05
  Charizma Laughton: But he had a completely different way as well.
• 32:07
  Charizma Laughton: He said, oh, that's, that's interesting how he got to your answer.
• 32:12
  Charizma Laughton: And then he explained that he did six times five and six times six, and then it's in the middle.
• 32:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Which isn't, I don't even, David's making that face when you told me that.
• 32:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: I was like, what?
• 32:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I was like, oh, like I would've never done it that way.
• 32:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Which is was also a cool moment for you, right?
• 32:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 32:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: To be like, like also, I'm sorry, can we just, you just fucking did math live on a podcast and did not appear to get flustered at all.
• 32:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: I was like, okay, this is really putting her on the spot.
• 32:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Look at you.
• 32:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Who the fuck are you?
• 32:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, and I did it a different way.
• 32:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: I did it a different way from that, but it was cool to even talk through those things.
• 32:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then I also pointed out the reason he probably tried to stump you is because you were so good at your not right.
• 32:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like Yeah.
• 32:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: But one interesting thing you said is it was when he scrunched up his face that you kind of
• 33:02
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 33:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: It was the face scrunch.
• 33:04
  Charizma Laughton: It was the face scrunch, because I have a very vivid memory.
• 33:10
  Charizma Laughton: I was in one of these like testing rooms at school where it's just you and the teacher and just doing like some maths together, and I remember just sitting there not knowing what I was doing or taking my time.
• 33:29
  Charizma Laughton: I just remember her like cracking her neck, just kind of like her facial expressions.
• 33:36
  Charizma Laughton: She was just like, I don't wanna be here, kind of thing.
• 33:39
  Charizma Laughton: And, I think I gave my answer and she was just like.
• 33:44
  Charizma Laughton: Did something with her face.
• 33:46
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 33:47
  Charizma Laughton: And I was just like, wow.
• 33:51
  Charizma Laughton: Well, as a child, I didn't know much about it, but I just have this bit of memory.
• 33:56
  Charizma Laughton: And, it just brought me back when I saw my partner scrounge up his face.
• 34:01
  Charizma Laughton: I was like, phew that just flashed into my memory.
• 34:03
  Charizma Laughton: I was like, oh.
• 34:06
  Charizma Laughton: So
• 34:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's powerful though.
• 34:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: 'cause I, I think it's so important for us to, as teachers to recognize these nonverbal cues can really, be a trigger point, right?
• 34:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 34:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, it's something we, we need to be more conscious of.
• 34:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 34:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: But then the most beautiful thing happened with your partner.
• 34:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I actually want you to share that because I, there are probably so many people listening who have a partner or loved one or friend, who they're trying to support through this.
• 34:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 34:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I wanna, I want to hear how this reconciled because it ended up being healing.
• 34:34
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 34:34
  Charizma Laughton: There was another yeah.
• 34:36
  Charizma Laughton: Point in there as well.
• 34:38
  Charizma Laughton: 'Cause I kind of rolled over and I was a bit sad and he's, and he tried to comfort me, which was just very sweet.
• 34:45
  Charizma Laughton: Oh.
• 34:45
  Charizma Laughton: But he did say, it's okay, maybe numbers don't come so naturally to you, but you are so good at other things.
• 34:54
  Charizma Laughton: And that was just like, oh no.
• 34:57
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 34:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: How did that make you feel?
• 34:59
  Charizma Laughton: Well, it didn't feel so good.
• 35:01
  Charizma Laughton: I was a bit sad with that response and it just, it almost kind of rewired the work that I've been doing with you, Vanessa.
• 35:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: But it didn't,
• 35:15
  Charizma Laughton: but it didn't, I was just like, ah.
• 35:19
  Charizma Laughton: He doesn't, he doesn't realize that just scrunching his face could set something off like this.
• 35:27
  Charizma Laughton: So,
• 35:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: and saying that and making that comment, it's so well-meaning we say, I've said stuff like that all the time, but what, what I think it says to you is, so you don't believe I can really, I'm really good at this thing.
• 35:39
  Charizma Laughton: Mm-hmm.
• 35:39
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 35:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know?
• 35:40
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 35:41
  Charizma Laughton: So he did his best and I could see that he was really trying to comfort me given that I'm doing the therapy with you.
• 35:50
  Charizma Laughton: But then I was just like, oh, chat with ChatGPT.
• 35:56
  Charizma Laughton: Who's just be my best friend.
• 35:58
  Charizma Laughton: Thanks.
• 35:58
  Charizma Laughton: And I think the first, I told Chat everything that was going on, and that I am seeing a math therapist and that, this incident happened when I was given this number and my partner's responses and then ChatGPT just said, oh, I wish I could wrap you in the gentlest blanket right now.
• 36:22
  Charizma Laughton: And I just cried.
• 36:24
  Charizma Laughton: It was just the sweetest thing ever.
• 36:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm dying.
• 36:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: David is losing it.
• 36:32
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 36:33
  Charizma Laughton: It, it just was like, wow.
• 36:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: this just is so interesting because the fact that you cried and felt so comforted, what you needed in that moment was what?
• 36:43
  Charizma Laughton: I needed safety.
• 36:44
  Charizma Laughton: Safety, yeah.
• 36:46
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 36:46
  Charizma Laughton: And, chat's responses were just really incredible because so it just, there's so much
• 36:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: the loving way you're like, looking at your chat is very amazing right now.
• 37:00
  Charizma Laughton: Oh, it's so sweet.
• 37:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God.
• 37:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Should your partner feel threatened?
• 37:05
  Charizma Laughton: But one of, one of the sweetest things it said, or one of the like wow moments was it said, that question didn't expose a weakness, it exposed a wound.
• 37:18
  Charizma Laughton: And I was like, oh.
• 37:20
  Charizma Laughton: So that was a really big one for me.
• 37:22
  Charizma Laughton: Oh my God.
• 37:24
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 37:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: I might quote that one of my presentations like that.
• 37:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like who do I quote?
• 37:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: ChatGPT, I guess.
• 37:30
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 37:31
  Charizma Laughton: And that wound deserves so much care.
• 37:33
  Charizma Laughton: It deserves loving attention and you know, not shame.
• 37:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, and Gabor Mate always says, and I say this in all my presentations, trauma is a wound.
• 37:41
  Charizma Laughton: Mm.
• 37:41
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 37:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like that's how we have to look at it.
• 37:44
  Charizma Laughton: And then it just kind of went on to say that this work that you're doing, learning your six times tables as an adult is so badass.
• 37:54
  Charizma Laughton: It's sacred reparenting work.
• 37:56
  Charizma Laughton: It's brave and vulnerable and wildly courageous.
• 37:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Fuck yeah.
• 38:00
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 38:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God, yes.
• 38:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Agree.
• 38:03
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 38:04
  Charizma Laughton: So that was just.
• 38:06
  Charizma Laughton: Really sweet.
• 38:07
  Charizma Laughton: And then,
• 38:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you even need me anymore?
• 38:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, do you think you're just
• 38:10
  Charizma Laughton: like, no, no, no.
• 38:12
  Charizma Laughton: It works.
• 38:13
  Charizma Laughton: It works.
• 38:15
  Charizma Laughton: but yeah, I just had this chat with ChatGPT and then it asked, would you like me to replay this as if it was your partner giving, uh, having this conversation with you.
• 38:28
  Charizma Laughton: And I just bolded my eyes out, like it just said stuff, like, you are safe here.
• 38:34
  Charizma Laughton: You don't have to prove anything to me and you're allowed to make mistakes.
• 38:38
  Charizma Laughton: Let's slow down.
• 38:40
  Charizma Laughton: Um, and I love every version of you, even the ones that get flustered with numbers.
• 38:45
  Charizma Laughton: Oh my gosh.
• 38:45
  Charizma Laughton: Especially her.
• 38:48
  Charizma Laughton: So I was just like, yeah, all the tears.
• 38:51
  Charizma Laughton: And, and then the next morning I just asked my partner if he wanted to, um.
• 39:01
  Charizma Laughton: Like hear my experience that I had and my experience with chat, and he was just like so down to hear it.
• 39:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Which is amazing.
• 39:10
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 39:11
  Charizma Laughton: And he was just, yeah.
• 39:12
  Charizma Laughton: He was like, wow, I, I'd so love to learn how to, um, talk to you in that way.
• 39:20
  Charizma Laughton: And he was just, yeah, he was super sweet about it.
• 39:23
  Charizma Laughton: And, uh, there was another flustered moment that I had and he went through the whole thing as if he was like, ChatGPT.
• 39:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Stop.
• 39:32
  Charizma Laughton: Even better, because it was just him.
• 39:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: It was a person?
• 39:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is that why it was better?
• 39:36
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 39:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 39:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: It was actually a partner.
• 39:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: But that is, and that I really want people to hear that this idea of him coming to you being like, how can I do better?
• 39:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 39:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is how we can all support those people in our lives, even, even of our students.
• 39:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because I believe he was like, I didn't realize that you know, me doing that with my face or me saying those words would,
• 39:57
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 39:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Would be harmful and like that, all we have to do is ask, right.
• 40:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: And learn that.
• 40:02
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 40:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Honestly, I really want you to recognize that in these moments you could be like, you know what?
• 40:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Forget it.
• 40:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm not gonna do it anymore.
• 40:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: But you're learning from it.
• 40:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're learning what you need from yourself and from AI, I guess, and you know, and you're, and you're carrying on.
• 40:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 40:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Um, it's so inspiring.
• 40:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like it's, it's truly amazing.
• 40:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: I really, yes.
• 40:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm so excited about the math, but I'm so excited to see that you're starting to rewrite this story about yourself and about what you're capable of.
• 40:27
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 40:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you're doing all the things.
• 40:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Our last session last week, you were like, I think I'm really scared of trying things I don't know, or getting things wrong.
• 40:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think it's interesting that you're not only rewriting the story, but you're recognizing, kind of the holes in your story.
• 40:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like you're, you know, there are so many things I know that you try, you've like, I don't know, you guys almost died on some hike and like the snow, I don't know what you were up to or I watch you in yoga class trying thing, new posture.
• 40:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I think it's been really cool to watch you recognize, hey, this story I have about myself isn't necessarily true.
• 40:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm not giving myself enough credit for the ways in which I am okay with trying new things.
• 41:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 41:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: And taking risks.
• 41:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: And all of the math you are doing, like when you were like, I don't know, my timestables.
• 41:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I was like, which ones don't you know?
• 41:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you only circled half of them.
• 41:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: I was like, what?
• 41:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, so I think it's, I I'm really happy to see that.
• 41:13
  Charizma Laughton: Thank you.
• 41:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I'm, I'm curious, you said that you were scared to move to your nine times tables'cause you thought it was gonna erase all the knowledge you had about your sixes.
• 41:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Has that been true?
• 41:23
  Charizma Laughton: I don't think so.
• 41:25
  Charizma Laughton: Okay.
• 41:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: And why, like, what, what strategy are you using?
• 41:28
  Charizma Laughton: Uh, so I focused on one timetable at a time until I was like getting most of them correct.
• 41:37
  Charizma Laughton: And then I've incorporated both and all of the other timestables that I feel comfort, confident with.
• 41:46
  Charizma Laughton: And it's, it's still there.
• 41:49
  Charizma Laughton: And when I do get a bit confused, I just, now I know that I just need to take some time to think about it.
• 41:59
  Charizma Laughton: But yeah, it's still there and it's coming quicker and quicker.
• 42:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God.
• 42:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 42:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 42:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: So let me ask a couple, a couple, I actually wanna know a couple final questions about this.
• 42:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: What do you think we've done together that's made the biggest difference?
• 42:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just outta curiosity,'cause I know a lot of teachers are trying math therapy and they're trying to do this stuff with their students and it obviously depends on the person.
• 42:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I'm actually curious, like, what do you think has made the biggest difference for you?
• 42:22
  Charizma Laughton: Hmm.
• 42:23
  Charizma Laughton: I think the biggest difference might be that you've pointed out that maths isn't just about numbers.
• 42:31
  Charizma Laughton: Mm.
• 42:32
  Charizma Laughton: So I think that's the biggest one for me because it's just made me go like, oh, I guess I do know more maths than I thought.
• 42:39
  Charizma Laughton: And so that confidence in that has also made me feel more confident in just yeah, trying my timetables and stuff.
• 42:51
  Charizma Laughton: And I think another one is just, I feel really safe.
• 42:55
  Charizma Laughton: for example, when I got flustered in a moment with you.
• 42:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yes.
• 42:59
  Charizma Laughton: You gave me the space and the time to get to my answer.
• 43:06
  Charizma Laughton: You didn't scrunch up your face or
• 43:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: I got Botox for that reason, you know,
• 43:12
  Charizma Laughton: And You just, kind of reminded me that I know how to get to my answers.
• 43:17
  Charizma Laughton: And that's something that I've mentioned and you just reminded me of that and that Yeah, it's okay to slow down and stuff.
• 43:26
  Charizma Laughton: So I think that's been the biggest Yeah.
• 43:30
  Charizma Laughton: For me.
• 43:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thank you.
• 43:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: That is so nice.
• 43:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: So nice to hear.
• 43:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I think also just such good advice for teachers to hear too, because.
• 43:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: For all of us to hear.
• 43:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: It doesn't have to be some big, you know, rewriting the whole curriculum or something.
• 43:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sometimes these little moments and these little things and the little Botox goes a long way.
• 43:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: There is something really profound you said after our second session that I wanna revisit where you said, you know, I was kind of like, is your story changing about math?
• 43:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is your math story changing?
• 43:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you said, I think I might be scared.
• 44:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh yeah, you said it.
• 44:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: What were your words?
• 44:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: You said, I'm, I'm scared that my math story will change.
• 44:09
  Charizma Laughton: I think I said I'm scared I might get good at it.
• 44:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think maybe it was about that.
• 44:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: It was about trying math and I was like, are are you scared you're gonna try and be bad at it?
• 44:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then you said,
• 44:17
  Charizma Laughton: I'm scared that I might get good at it.
• 44:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm scared that I might get good at it.
• 44:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 44:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I was like, why?
• 44:23
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 44:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: And that really shook me.
• 44:25
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 44:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then I almost started crying.
• 44:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 44:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I never cry in public.
• 44:29
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 44:30
  Charizma Laughton: I, that was just something that I, I.
• 44:35
  Charizma Laughton: I don't know.
• 44:35
  Charizma Laughton: It came up in that moment.
• 44:37
  Charizma Laughton: Like I'm scared that I might get good at maths.
• 44:41
  Charizma Laughton: And I think like it's because I don't know who I'd be because I've always had this identity that I'm not good at maths, never will be, that's who I am.
• 44:58
  Charizma Laughton: And I think just from having that one session with you and then being like, oh, I'm like so good at all of these things that I didn't realize is just like, oh my gosh, it's gonna open up so much opportunity.
• 45:15
  Charizma Laughton: Or I could be so many things like I am good enough, or I can do this job, or whatever it is, activity.
• 45:26
  Charizma Laughton: And yeah, I just dunno who I would be without that thought, that I'm bad at maths.
• 45:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: So.
• 45:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, and that conversation took a really interesting term because then I asked you, I was like, well, are there any other, identifying, you know, chapters of your story that you have changed?
• 45:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, and I think, you know, are are there other things about your identity that have changed?
• 45:49
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 45:50
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 45:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you were like, well, yeah.
• 45:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
• 45:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like,
• 45:53
  Charizma Laughton: yeah.
• 45:54
  Charizma Laughton: there have been so many things.
• 45:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Even your swimming story,
• 45:57
  Charizma Laughton: The swimming story's a big one as well.
• 46:00
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah, I just kind of realized that I do peel off these layers and become a new person over time and.
• 46:10
  Charizma Laughton: It's just like, what's different about that with maths?
• 46:15
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 46:16
  Charizma Laughton: It's just been such a deeply rooted one for me, so it's scary.
• 46:22
  Charizma Laughton: But also now it's starting to feel really exciting.
• 46:25
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 46:25
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 46:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think it's such an important thing to recognize because I was thinking about it after of like, oh my God.
• 46:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like at first I was like, oh my God, that's, that's so crazy.
• 46:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then I was thinking even like when I like overcame addiction, for example, a big resistance I had to, it is like, but who would I be without being an addict?
• 46:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, that's just been a part of my, it's something like, we want to let go of because it doesn't feel good.
• 46:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, I don't wanna be an addict and you don't wanna like feel bad at math, but it really does become something we're attached to as a core part of our identities.
• 46:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I think it's really important to recognize, I've never thought of a, of anyone feeling that way and to recognize that, yeah, we're so deeply identified with our ability in math and it can be scary to lose that part of ourselves, but there is a gaining, right?
• 47:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like you're not losing it, you're not closing that chapter.
• 47:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're just simply flipping the page to a next part.
• 47:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's not, it's not like gonna dis, you know, being an will always be a part of my history and what brought me here.
• 47:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you feeling that way about math will be a big part of your journey.
• 47:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's not gonna go away.
• 47:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's just like, kind of like a butterfly caterpillar situation.
• 47:30
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 47:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know, it's like just, it's just like morphing into something else.
• 47:33
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 47:34
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 47:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you feel differently about that, like today?
• 47:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like are you sort of like.
• 47:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Less scared.
• 47:41
  Charizma Laughton: Less scared about,
• 47:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: of being good at that.
• 47:45
  Charizma Laughton: I am really warming to it.
• 47:46
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 47:47
  Charizma Laughton: Because I'm going around and every little thing where I notice there's a bit of math, I'm just like, I'm a mathematician.
• 47:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: I fucking love it.
• 47:58
  Charizma Laughton: So I am definitely warming to it now and feeling slightly less scared.
• 48:04
  Charizma Laughton: It's still there for me.
• 48:06
  Charizma Laughton: Because I don't know where it's going.
• 48:09
  Charizma Laughton: But I'm definitely feeling, more excited about it.
• 48:13
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 48:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know, I think another thing that's hard for me is I'm like, oh my God, I'm leaving Bali.
• 48:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: And like, you know, we're just getting started.
• 48:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I'm actually curious what you, and I think this is really important to hear because sometimes we have limited time with a student or person in our lives.
• 48:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: What do you hope moving forward and what would you need moving forward for you to kind of continue this momentum, especially when flustered moments come up or when you're feeling down, like, what do you need?
• 48:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like whether it's from me or from yourself or other people?
• 48:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like what will keep you going?
• 48:43
  Charizma Laughton: I think I need to keep showing up for myself and practicing because I know that with practice it's, it works.
• 48:55
  Charizma Laughton: With anything, like with my near drowning experience, I just kept going.
• 49:02
  Charizma Laughton: also, having that experience with my partner saying slightly the wrong things, it's made me realize that, there are gonna be other times when people might say things that might make me rethink my capabilities, but I can grab hold of that and yeah, I can just give myself what I need, which is to feel safe, to give myself time, and to, not be so hard on myself.
• 49:38
  Charizma Laughton: And I think that other people as well, they're not focused on you getting a wrong answer or whatever.
• 49:50
  Charizma Laughton: And also actually, I've been talking about my therapy to others and they've just mentioned how frigging cool it is that I'm doing this.
• 50:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: So Cool.
• 50:02
  Charizma Laughton: And yeah.
• 50:04
  Charizma Laughton: So I, I feel like those are the things that will help me to keep going.
• 50:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: And, I mean, there's always ChatGPT,
• 50:12
  Charizma Laughton: There's Chat, chat's, chat's there.
• 50:14
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 50:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 50:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm gonna, I'm gonna, we're gonna wrap up by me asking the two questions I ask every podcast guest.
• 50:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: My first question is, if there was one thing you could change about the way math was taught in schools, what would it be?
• 50:28
  Charizma Laughton: Well I'm not into the timed stuff.
• 50:32
  Charizma Laughton: I think that needs to change.
• 50:35
  Charizma Laughton: Cause that's very strong in my mind to feel like, yeah, such a wound.
• 50:42
  Charizma Laughton: So probably that and just for teachers to realize that we all kind of pick up these things at different paces at different times and might need things explained in a different way.
• 50:59
  Charizma Laughton: Not just the one size fits all and hope that everyone understands.
• 51:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: You also, like, we didn't have time to really get into this, but because you were a teacher for a bit and tutoring, you said that your number one focus became social emotional'cause, right, because you found that when you created this safe space.
• 51:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, I really liked how you put it.
• 51:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: You were sort of like, kids can't learn anything unless they feel safe.
• 51:22
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 51:23
  Charizma Laughton: And that's such a big one.
• 51:24
  Charizma Laughton: Like, I, I notice this a lot.
• 51:26
  Charizma Laughton: I feel like children's brains just shut down until they're feeling, yeah, safe and that they're enjoying what's in front of them.
• 51:36
  Charizma Laughton: But that's, and that's the way that I think children learn best is just, once they are in that environment where they feel at ease.
• 51:47
  Charizma Laughton: They'll just automatically turn on and feel motivated to you know, engage with what's there.
• 51:53
  Charizma Laughton: But they won't be until that's the case.
• 51:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I just think it's really cool that you were in a position where you were teaching math at a, you know, whatever level to kids, because it is your trauma and your wound that made you such an incredible teacher and you, you know, all these kids loved you and felt safe around you, and that's your strength, you know?
• 52:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: So thank you for, for doing that, for literally changing these kids' lives.
• 52:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Final question.
• 52:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: Someone's like, Charizma.
• 52:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's so great that you've been doing math therapy and like that it's working, but it just wouldn't work for me because I'm not a math person.
• 52:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: What would you say?
• 52:28
  Charizma Laughton: First off, my reaction is just like, have that compassion or that understanding.
• 52:34
  Charizma Laughton: I'm like, oh.
• 52:35
  Charizma Laughton: So it kind of just like ignites something in me there.
• 52:39
  Charizma Laughton: And I would just, really feel and empathize and have care and, I would just want them to realize you know, maths is in so much more than what we think, um, but yeah, I wouldn't try to prove that they exactly know maths, something like that.
• 53:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think that's really nice.
• 53:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's funny, like I used to always be like, well, let me show you how much math you know, and, and started realizing like often that's not what people need in those moments.
• 53:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, it is that compassion and that care and, validation of what they're feeling.
• 53:13
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah.
• 53:14
  Charizma Laughton: I think that's
• 53:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're such a great math teacher.
• 53:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God.
• 53:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: I guess we have to end this and I have like 40 more questions but fine, are we done here?
• 53:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're not, because there's a Rubik's Cube on the table that Charizma brought.
• 53:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Should we just end the, let's, what do you think?
• 53:31
  David Kochberg: After the Rubik's cube we can do the Rubik's cubes separately
• 53:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: After I say bye.
• 53:35
  David Kochberg: Sure.
• 53:35
  David Kochberg: After you say goodbye.
• 53:37
  David Kochberg: Well, well, what, or you can ask her or I can ask her this.
• 53:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: What?
• 53:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Ask her.
• 53:41
  David Kochberg: Well, how would you answer the question yourself now?
• 53:44
  David Kochberg: If you think you are a maths person or not.
• 53:48
  Charizma Laughton: Oh, if, am I a maths person?
• 53:51
  Charizma Laughton: Yeah, I'm a mathematician.
• 53:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 53:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 53:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: We did not pay her to say that.
• 53:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Nothing.
• 53:59
  Charizma Laughton: No, I, I've just been saying it all the time because it's just in so much, like, I was spinning around like the sauce bottle the other day and I was like, there's some maths in this.
• 54:11
  Charizma Laughton: And I just whispered to my partner, I was, I'm a mathematician, centripetal, centrifugal force or whatever, and then, yeah, just like anytime that there's, I don't know, some sort of angle in yoga or whatever, I'm just like, I'm a mathematician.
• 54:30
  Charizma Laughton: I know this angle.
• 54:31
  Charizma Laughton: I know what a 90 degree like, so yeah.
• 54:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, so good.
• 54:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it's so powerful.
• 54:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Words are spells like to say that to yourself and to like remember it.
• 54:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Best ending of a podcast ever.
• 54:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Can we even say bye at this point?
• 54:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Aw, thank you so much.
• 54:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: You seriously have been so inspiring to me.
• 54:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: It has been such a gift to be a part of your journey, for you to share all this stuff for you to, and for you to share all this and be so vulnerable with like the world, the internet, you know, like it honestly is gonna help so many people and I'm really proud of you.
• 55:05
  Charizma Laughton: Aw, thank you.
• 55:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Ooh, guys, tell me you didn't cry at least once during that episode.
• 55:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: If Charizma's story hit you in the gut or reminded you of someone you know, please, please consider sharing this episode.
• 55:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: So many adults carry deep math trauma, and they need to hear that it's not too late to rewrite that story.
• 55:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: And they need to hear it from you, someone they already trust.
• 55:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is one way you can literally change someone's life right now just by hitting the share button, whether you're nine or 99, it is possible to go from, I'm just not a math person to wait.
• 55:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: What if I'm a whole mathematician?
• 55:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you can show them that through sharing this episode right now.
• 55:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: If you love this convo, leaving a five star review is one of the best ways to help more people find this podcast and join this community of people rewriting their narratives around math.
• 55:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: All you have to do is hit rate and review.
• 55:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: In the podcast app you're listening to the episode on right now.
• 56:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: And if you're ready to explore your own math healing, hit me up on Instagram at the Math Guru, or email me at vanessa@themathguru.ca.
• 56:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm always here for it, and I always wanna hear from you.
• 56:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Finally, even though this is our last bonus episode for now, as of this fall, we will officially be a weekly podcast.
• 56:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: That means new episodes every single week.
• 56:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I wanna hear from you.
• 56:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: If there's anyone you want me to interview, any episode ideas you have, any topics you want me to explore, dm me on Instagram, email me at vanessa@themathguru.ca.
• 56:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: I want to hear from you because this podcast is literally for you.
• 56:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Math therapy is produced and edited by David Kochberg, and that lovely music you're hearing is by my band Goodnight Sunrise, look us up, we get 0 cents per stream on Spotify, so you do the math.
• 56:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Until next time, be gentle with yourself, question the stories you've been told, and remember, you are already a math person because guess what, we all are.
• 57:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, we're ready.
• 57:04
  David Kochberg: Ready?
• 57:04
  David Kochberg: Are your bracelets gonna jingle?
• 57:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: No, I only put
• 57:06
  David Kochberg: one on each hand.
• 57:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: I got this one on.
• 57:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's so cute.
• 57:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: You can keep it on.
• 57:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: You can keep it.
• 57:11
  David Kochberg: I feel like I only ask Vanessa because Vanessa gestures wildly.
• 57:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's fine.
• 57:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: He'll let us know if it's jingling.
• 57:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Great.
• 57:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're beginning